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A podcast from Bright Wall/Dark Room, engaging with the business of being alive, one movie at a time. Hosted by Chad Perman & Elizabeth Cantwell.
Bilge (00:00)
When I watched it initially, I was like, this feels like almost I mean, this is an extreme statement, but it feels almost like a Citizen Kane style debut.
Chad Perman (00:10)
That is a very extreme statement.
Chad Perman (00:40)
Hello and welcome to the Bright Wall/Dark Room podcast. I'm Chad Perman.
Elizabeth Cantwell (00:44)
And I'm Elizabeth Cantwell.
Chad Perman (00:46)
We're doing a night recording, so it's a little spookier. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (00:49)
It is. It's appropriate
Elizabeth Cantwell (00:50)
for the season and the film.
Chad Perman (00:52)
are you a morning person or a night person? you didn't have kids.
Elizabeth Cantwell (00:55)
I mean,
Elizabeth Cantwell (00:57)
if I didn't have kids, I would be a morning person, but I think I prefer
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:01)
night now because it's more of like me time, you know?
Chad Perman (01:05)
Yes, exactly.
Chad Perman (01:06)
But yeah, it's October. It's almost the end of October. We're doing this on a tight timeline because we hope to get this out before Halloween. any Halloween plans?
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:13)
well, we're going to a Halloween party that friends are throwing down the street and the kids will trick or treat and it should be like a nice, it's like a family, you know, it's not like a crazy I feel like when you're in your twenties, you do the crazy Halloween party, and then when you're in your forties, you're like, we're like hanging out with other adults who also have kids and there's some candy and we're chatting. Yeah. We do. We do. Yeah. We like we like a good
Chad Perman (01:33)
Yeah. But you guys always have good costumes for the kids every year. I see on Instagram. Yeah. You got everything
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:41)
costume.
Chad Perman (01:42)
You got a good you don't have to spoil anything, but you got you got it all picked out for Saturday. Okay.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:45)
I feel good I feel good about my costume. The kids are happy.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:48)
yeah, I think we're doing good.
Chad Perman (01:50)
All right. well, we are here today to talk about a movie that is celebrating its twenty-fifth anniversary this month, And we have a wonderful guest that we're about to introduce who loves this movie as well. So I'm looking forward to talking with you guys about Donnie Darko.
Elizabeth Cantwell (02:07)
Hooray.
Chad Perman (02:08)
Yay, hooray!
Chad Perman (02:10)
and our guest today is at least as far as I'm concerned, one of the best, if not the best, film critics and essayists working today. Has been for many years now, primarily working at New York magazine and the online sack Vulture. but also pinning some of your favorite Criterion Collection essays and appearing on many film podcasts where he's always a treat to have on.
Chad Perman (02:31)
making his third appearance on the Brightwall Dark Room podcast, but his first non Tom Cruise related appearance. yes. Don't spoil don't spoil it yet, don't spoil it.
Bilge (02:40)
the first non Tom Cruise one. Interesting.
Chad Perman (02:44)
to talk about one of his favorite films, the Halloween appropriate cult classic Donnie Darko. Please welcome to the show Vilga Beery.
Bilge (02:51)
Good to be here. Thank you for having me. I
Chad Perman (02:53)
Yeah.
Bilge (02:54)
did not realize I I I had been a Tom Cruise exclusive before.
Chad Perman (02:58)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (02:59)
but we're here to talk about a movie that you you told me is one of your favorites when we reached out to you about this one. So I guess let's start with your journey with Donnie Darko.
Bilge (03:08)
Well, j it's funny. I Donnie Darko, if I remember correctly, premiered at the Sundance Film Festival. I did not see it there. I was not at the Sundance Film Festival. When it opened initially theatrically, it kind of got like a really lousy run, like two weeks or something like that. And I remember a couple of critic friends of mine,
Bilge (03:31)
Particularly a a a guy named Andrew Johnston, who actually sadly died at a young age. So he's he's you know you guys might not be familiar with his work. He used to be the film critic for the main film critic for Time Out, New York, and then
Elizabeth Cantwell (03:45)
Mm.
Bilge (03:46)
he left Time Out to go to Us Weekly when they were kind of revamping and becoming more of a less less of an Us Weekly style magazine. I don't even know if they're still around
Chad Perman (03:57)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (03:59)
at this point.
Bilge (04:00)
But and then that did not really work out for him, so he came back to Time Out and and became actually their sort of video home video section editor, time in it was called. and actually
Chad Perman (04:12)
Yeah.
Bilge (04:13)
gave me a lot of my initial writing gigs for the initial long format writing gigs. Yes, yes. In fact Matt Matt eulogized him and and and
Chad Perman (04:17)
I was he friends with Matt as well? 'Cause I I remember Matt writing about him after he'd passed. Yeah, that's
Elizabeth Cantwell (04:24)
Mm.
Chad Perman (04:24)
how I found out about him.
Bilge (04:25)
Yeah. Andrew was
Bilge (04:27)
a great guy. Andrew was also from Richmond originally. So he loved Donnie Darko and loved just the
Chad Perman (04:30)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (04:33)
atmosphere. he was this was our age, right? I was
Chad Perman (04:37)
Yeah.
Bilge (04:38)
younger than Andrew, but you know, he was kind of the age of the character, you know, the character in the movie. so he really related to it. And anyway, he he and a couple of other people really recommended it. And I had missed it in theaters. I
Bilge (04:51)
I remember I found a bootleg, a filmed off-the-screen bootleg. I don't remember if it was a VHS or a DVD at this point.
Chad Perman (04:57)
Old school.
Bilge (05:00)
and and I watched that and I I thought, this is really good. But I I it was a really bad bootleg. Like it was not a film, you know, it was not an experience that I was like, great. I can tell how great this movie is. but I really enjoyed it. So then what happened was the Pioneer Theater in New York programmed it.
Bilge (05:21)
as a midnight screening. And and I went to that first midnight screening and and it wasn't like it wasn't crowded. It was just a a few people. And I watched it theatrically and I was like, I was blown away. And I went back every week, every like every Friday or Saturday. It was like once every week
Chad Perman (05:40)
I've I've got the receipts
Bilge (05:42)
I went back to see it.
Bilge (05:44)
and for weeks and weeks and weeks I was there and I got to see that audience grow. Cause initially there were there were days, there were evenings when I was it was like me and like two other people. But eventually you started to and you, you could eavesdrop on conversations and a lot of them were like NYU students. and it just the the thing just grew and grew and grew and grew. So I felt like I was on the ground floor, even though I'd missed it actually when it had actually been released in theaters.
Chad Perman (06:05)
Yeah.
Bilge (06:08)
but I felt like I was kind of on the ground floor of the of the cult
Bilge (06:12)
of it becoming a cult item. I'm I I don't even know how many times I saw it. I just, didn't have much else to do at the time, didn't really have like a day job. So I weekends, you know, one night a weekend. No,
Chad Perman (06:25)
Were were you in school at the time or were you
Bilge (06:27)
no, I would have it would d this was I I gr I yeah,
Chad Perman (06:29)
Two thousand one.
Bilge (06:30)
I I would have been like, yeah, late twenties, you know.
Chad Perman (06:34)
Okay.
Bilge (06:35)
You know, freelancing around
Bilge (06:38)
Yeah, it was before I'd it was actually right before I I made a feature film and then after that I I'd met my wife and but that was a couple of years later.
Chad Perman (06:46)
Yeah.
Bilge (06:48)
but but yeah, no, so it was a it was a kind of a, you know, exciting time, you know.
Chad Perman (06:54)
Yeah.
Bilge (06:55)
actually I did have a day job. Sorry, I'm f I'm forgetting. I did have a day job because I was I was working at a magazine called Yahoo Internet Life.
Bilge (07:03)
I worked there for about two years and this actually I think coincided
Chad Perman (07:06)
Okay.
Bilge (07:07)
right around that it was right around the time I started that job, if I remember correctly. so anyway, it was just kind of a you know, it was it was I don't know, it was like I I I will always associate it with that period and I will always associate it with being in
Chad Perman (07:21)
Yeah.
Bilge (07:22)
my twenties. But also I grew up in the D C area and I was, you know, like I said, I was a little younger than the characters than than Donnie in the movie at the time, but but it it
Bilge (07:32)
got that vibe so right. this was the thing that Andrew really remarked on was that it really felt
Chad Perman (07:37)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (07:38)
like something that belonged in that time period. It just got the details right, the textures of that world right. yeah, and
Chad Perman (07:45)
So good, yeah.
Bilge (07:46)
and I I I kind of felt that as well. and yeah, you know, and all even just the Dukakis stuff, you know, I was I was really, really involved in that election. Yeah, you know.
Chad Perman (07:53)
Yeah, that was in one of the first lines in the movie. It yeah, it puts
Elizabeth Cantwell (07:56)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Perman (07:57)
you right there.
Elizabeth Cantwell (07:57)
Where in the
Elizabeth Cantwell (07:58)
where in the DC area were you, Bilga? 'Cause I grew up in Springfield.
Bilge (08:02)
In Springfield, Virginia?
Elizabeth Cantwell (08:04)
Yeah.
Bilge (08:05)
yeah. well I was in Springfield, Virginia, but we moved in eight I wanna say eighty five to Rockville, Maryland. And then I went to school in Bethesda. And I was there until
Elizabeth Cantwell (08:14)
Okay. Yep, yep.
Bilge (08:17)
college, you know, left for college in ninety one. But you know, that's where my parents were. I still go back. I mean yeah. yeah, okay. There you go. Yeah. The the the
Chad Perman (08:22)
Yeah. And both both of you guys went to Yale as well, so you got that in common.
Elizabeth Cantwell (08:23)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (08:27)
Connections, connections. No, I I would
Elizabeth Cantwell (08:30)
agree that there is something that feels sort of Northern Virginia or like
Bilge (08:33)
Right?
Elizabeth Cantwell (08:34)
that it does feel very if get something right about that area.
Bilge (08:39)
It is not an aesthetic that I can pinpoint in other movies. it's not a kind of feeling that other movies can give me. If where there were lots of other movies that had that vibe. I
Elizabeth Cantwell (08:51)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (08:52)
love Donnie Darko. I love Donnie Darko for all sorts of other reasons as well. But maybe it wouldn't have stood out as much if there were other films that gave me that vibe, there are so many
Chad Perman (09:00)
Well,
Elizabeth Cantwell (09:00)
Yeah.
Bilge (09:01)
Baltimore movies for some reason,
Elizabeth Cantwell (09:04)
Ha ha
Chad Perman (09:04)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (09:04)
ha.
Bilge (09:05)
But there really aren't a lot of Northern
Chad Perman (09:05)
Well yeah.
Bilge (09:07)
Virginia movies.
Elizabeth Cantwell (09:10)
Maybe that's okay.
Chad Perman (09:10)
you got Avalon and stuff.
Bilge (09:11)
Yeah,
Bilge (09:12)
all unless you count all the president's men and stuff like that,
Elizabeth Cantwell (09:15)
Sure.
Bilge (09:16)
but yeah. Yeah movies like that ar that aren't about politics that are that area. And
Bilge (09:21)
I mean Virginia itself is kind of its its own its own vibe, but but there is a kind of I mean, I don't know how to describe the vibe. I just I'd I would point you to Donnie Darko. I'd be like, that's that's the vibe.
Chad Perman (09:30)
Okay. You know it when you see it,
Chad Perman (09:32)
yeah. Okay. Well then I gotta go there.
Bilge (09:33)
That's the vibe.
Elizabeth Cantwell (09:33)
feel like there's a there's
Elizabeth Cantwell (09:35)
a layer of I think what for me what the film captures about that is the layer of insight and hypocrisy simultaneously
Bilge (09:43)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (09:44)
maybe and the like illusion of comfort the illusion of like we live in a place where everything's good and where families are happy like this like Northern Virginia suburban
Bilge (09:56)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (09:57)
sort of concept
Elizabeth Cantwell (09:58)
even a concept of diversity that's maybe not undercut by the actual relationships between people. and though like, yeah, I don't know. I don't know what else to say about it. But it feel
Bilge (10:12)
It's
Elizabeth Cantwell (10:12)
there is something about the feeling of it, not just the look of the houses or something like that.
Bilge (10:15)
Yeah. Yeah,
Bilge (10:18)
yeah. It there's it's something about there, it it's a prosperous area, but it's not like the most prosperous area in the world. Like it's not the kind
Elizabeth Cantwell (10:26)
Right.
Bilge (10:26)
of like when you see prosperity on screen, very often you see something more gauche or more luxurious or more kind
Chad Perman (10:34)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (10:34)
of ostentatious. You wouldn't see that in in a film that captured this vibe, but it would be kind of a a kind of a
Bilge (10:44)
smug vibe, but not not entitled. and it's you know, even like the the Patrick Swayze character in the film, you know, even his whole shtick, obviously he's a he's a monster behind the scenes, but but even his whole shtick, it has it it's he's not a total huckster in the way
Chad Perman (11:04)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (11:06)
that like
Bilge (11:06)
he's he's trying to teach people to defeat fear, and it's like, okay, yeah, I can get with that, But then he does it in the tackiest way possible. But but there is a
Chad Perman (11:09)
Yes. Yeah.
Bilge (11:14)
like there's you can almost imagine a perfectly sane, intelligent person attaching themselves to this program. Right. It's not y you don't look at this thing and say,
Chad Perman (11:22)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (11:24)
Well, only an idiot would buy into this. the film has plenty of fun with him, but it's not it there's
Chad Perman (11:26)
Yeah. Sure.
Bilge (11:30)
a weirdly relatable quality to some of all this stuff.
Bilge (11:35)
But yeah, it's like and also the the the the golfing stuff, the all these, they're they're golf buddies, but you when you see golfers in movies, very often they're really, really rich as opposed to just kind of aspirational. I don't know. There's all these little things. I these th this is this this isn't exclusive to that world, but
Chad Perman (11:52)
So it's like duh
Bilge (11:55)
that that is very much the vibe of this world and this this
Chad Perman (11:57)
Yeah.
Bilge (11:57)
film kind of captures it well.
Bilge (11:59)
and I think this that part of the appeal of the movie, I mean, because look, it's a film that ha has ha a cult following for a variety of reasons. But I do think some of that is because it does capture a kind of aspirational upper middle class milieu that's not like totally toxic. Like that's it's the undercurrent of this movie, but the film isn't really about satirizing that world.
Chad Perman (12:20)
Yeah,
Chad Perman (12:20)
it's not a class study.
Bilge (12:21)
It's just yeah, it's not. And it's and it's just
Bilge (12:23)
there. And there are all sorts of things. there are ridiculous characters and silly things that they're doing, but there's just a you can sort of love all these people to a certain extent. Not not so much the so easy character, but
Chad Perman (12:34)
Yeah. No, yeah.
Bilge (12:37)
I think in a weird way, that's what the film gets at by the end, right? By the end with Donnie's final sacrifice and everything, it does kind of get to that like.
Bilge (12:46)
accepting the world as it is, quality,
Chad Perman (12:49)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (12:50)
And I should clarify for everyone listening, we are we are all talking about the theatrical cut, not the okay. I just wanted to make sure.
Bilge (12:55)
Yes. Yes. I have only ever seen the director's
Bilge (12:59)
cut once. w
Chad Perman (13:01)
Same.
Bilge (13:02)
when they released it on DVD with like all this, you know, hoo-wah. And
Chad Perman (13:06)
Yeah, a lot of extra stuff. Yeah.
Bilge (13:07)
and I remember I I mean,
Bilge (13:09)
when the director's cut premiered, I was really excited. I was, my god, director's cut of Donnie Darko, and I'd like blind bought
Chad Perman (13:14)
Me too.
Bilge (13:15)
DVD and I put it on. I was like, my God, like this sucks. Like, what the hell? pacing is off, all sorts
Chad Perman (13:21)
Yeah, the pacing was just not the same.
Bilge (13:25)
of scenes that like I was so glad weren't in the theatrical cut. I mean, it it you do watch that and you think to yourself, no, like all the things that this director is interested in, like, those are not necessarily the things I'm interested in in this movie. You know, it happens sometimes.
Chad Perman (13:39)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (13:41)
Yeah, this this
Elizabeth Cantwell (13:42)
actually launched my kids and I into a conversation about what is a director's cut versus a theatrical cut. And I was thinking as I was talking about it though, like it's pretty it is, I think, more rare that the director's cut is such a mess as it is with this movie. And my husband, Chris, loves this movie and he likes to talk about how the only reason this movie is good is like a series of accidents. which is one of the interesting things about the movie, right? Is
Chad Perman (14:07)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (14:07)
it kind of feels
Elizabeth Cantwell (14:09)
if we're if we're going meta with it, it almost feels like a similar to the movie, like these various things have to kind of fall into place for the movie to end up being as brilliant as it is.
Bilge (14:19)
you're absolutely right. And what's the fascinating thing about that though is in its theatrical cut, it is so assured, you know? Like it doesn't feel like a movie that just kinda like as you say, kind of happened as a series of happy accidents. You know,
Bilge (14:34)
I mean when watched it w you know, initially, I was like, this feels like almost I mean, this is
Bilge (14:40)
An extreme statement, but it feels almost like a Citizen Kane style debut. it's like like I mean it's not, but but but it is in the i insofar as st
Chad Perman (14:44)
That is a very extreme statement. I'm putting that on the on the trailer.
Bilge (14:51)
stylistic like it's so stylistically assured, you know, it's not a thing that you can look at
Chad Perman (14:54)
It's so self assured, yeah.
Bilge (14:56)
and say, well, you know, the actors are really the reason why it's so good, or you know, the yet a good cinematographer, or I've like there there's so many films where you'll watch and you'll be, I can see.
Chad Perman (15:04)
No, it seemed like he knew exactly what he
Chad Perman (15:06)
wanted.
Bilge (15:07)
It feels like a movie where the director knew exactly what he wanted.
Chad Perman (15:10)
Yeah.
Bilge (15:10)
And as a writer, he knew exactly what to do. And like everybody's giving the performances they need to give. There's like it feels like a real complete vision. And it feels like just incredibly assured. So then when you see the director's kit, you're like, my God, like what's going on? And also, I mean, it's and and sadly, look, Richard Kelly's a really interesting filmmaker, right? And he does Southland Tales after
Chad Perman (15:31)
Absolutely.
Bilge (15:32)
this, which is another cult hit.
Bilge (15:34)
I don't like it as much. I think it's interesting. I've only ever really seen it once. So but I know it's a film that a lot of people love. You know, and then he does the the the the box, was that what it's called? Yeah, which is like interesting, but
Chad Perman (15:44)
The box. The box, yeah.
Bilge (15:46)
like really not well acted at all. you know, like so the he's never quite reached this this level. And there is this kind of unfortunately question hovering over his career now is like, was was Donnie
Chad Perman (15:59)
Yeah.
Bilge (15:59)
Darko kind of
Bilge (16:00)
a fluke. I don't think it was. I w I if if if it was up to me I would have I would just be,
Chad Perman (16:07)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (16:08)
you know, helping him make like financing, you know, a movie a year from him, but didn't happen.
Chad Perman (16:13)
Yeah, for sure.
Chad Perman (16:15)
Yeah, there's a there's a parallel universe where he has Paul Thomas Anderson's career, 'cause
Bilge (16:19)
Right?
Chad Perman (16:20)
same kind of self assuredness pretty pretty much right out of the gate,
Bilge (16:23)
And
Elizabeth Cantwell (16:23)
And structurally,
Elizabeth Cantwell (16:24)
I think the thing that struck me this time watching it was like the structure of the movie is so strong. to a point where, and I'm interested to hear when we start talking more about like the the way the film affects the viewer, to the point where I almost feel like the questions that surround the ending are like if you start to go down a logical, like, wait, what does does this mean this?
Chad Perman (16:46)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (16:47)
It almost doesn't matter because you feel like the structure has carried you to this inevitable place that makes you feel like you understand even if you don't logically understand. you you f exactly. Yeah.
Chad Perman (16:58)
It feels satisfying as a conclusion without
Chad Perman (17:01)
knowing what exactly that conclusion is for a while.
Bilge (17:04)
It's I d I
Bilge (17:05)
I described it to somebody once as and I can't remember sort of the exact order in which I I I I made the statement, but I s I either said it's like Stephen King tried to make a Christoph Kislowski movie, or I said it's like Christoph Kislowski tried to make a Stephen Kis. I can't remember it was one or the other, but that but it has
Chad Perman (17:25)
I think the ladder I think the ladder works better. Slightly.
Bilge (17:28)
that kind of
Bilge (17:30)
it has all the supernatural elements and all it definitely has the whole Stephen King vibe. Everybody's reading Stephen King books. but but really it's all about, kind of fate and these sort of unexpected connections and maybe part of that is also why it appeals so much to
Bilge (17:50)
a lot of people, including myself, is that it has all the elements of popular filmmaking, but it also actually has this not artsy but arty vibe. it it has a lot on its
Chad Perman (17:58)
Yeah, for sure.
Bilge (18:00)
mind, but it only really
Elizabeth Cantwell (18:01)
Yeah.
Bilge (18:02)
works when you're watching the movie. It's not a movie that you go out and like I mean, I I'm sure people have thought about it and talked about it, but I think that
Chad Perman (18:08)
Yeah.
Bilge (18:09)
maybe that's why I always found myself drawn to the just to see the film again. It wasn't like I wanted to go out and explain to somebody what happens in Donnie Darko or
Bilge (18:17)
Or have a huge debate about what happens in Donnie Darko. I just wanna go
Chad Perman (18:20)
Yeah.
Bilge (18:20)
live in the space of this movie again. that's
Chad Perman (18:23)
Exactly, yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (18:24)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (18:25)
And like Lindsay Romain wrote an essay for Brightwald a year or two ago, the the main thesis of it was Donnie Darko is a vibe. And
Bilge (18:32)
yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (18:32)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (18:32)
and it was
Chad Perman (18:33)
just like, yeah, I just like to be in that vibe. I like to put it on. I like to have it on.
Bilge (18:36)
Yeah, yeah.
Chad Perman (18:38)
but Elizabeth, what was your your journey with the when did you first see it?
Elizabeth Cantwell (18:42)
The funny thing is I don't remember I don't remember the first time I watched it, which is interesting to me because, well, you and I see this all the time in Brightwell essays. So often the impulse to open an essay is like the first time I saw this movie. Cause often people have
Chad Perman (18:55)
Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (18:56)
a very strong memory of that first watch of a movie that really affected you. and I don't, which is interesting to me that I don't. I know I saw it in college.
Chad Perman (19:04)
Was it like pre Chris though?
Elizabeth Cantwell (19:07)
At some point, because and I'm sure of this because the actor at the end who's in the car with Frank in the clown costume is
Chad Perman (19:15)
Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (19:16)
Francranz, who went to Yale at the same time I was there. And I was like very obsessed with him
Chad Perman (19:20)
okay.
Elizabeth Cantwell (19:22)
as an actor. Like I went to see him in all of the theater stuff. No, he's the friend, he's like the friend. yeah. that's funny.
Chad Perman (19:25)
Was he the one that was he the one that played Frank in the movie? okay. Cause I recognized that guy from Doom Generation a couple of years before that I'd re Yeah, I remembered that.
Elizabeth Cantwell (19:34)
Yeah, no, but I I remember rec being like, my God, that's Franc. Like, and I think maybe I heard
Chad Perman (19:41)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (19:42)
like, he's in this movie. You know what I mean? Because it was like he was at college and it was kind of cool, like he was in this movie. so I feel like it was definitely in college, but I don't remember it very well. And I wasn't, as Chad knows, I was not a big movie lover in college. I didn't really get
Chad Perman (19:59)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (19:59)
into film until my post college years. So I don't think it
Elizabeth Cantwell (20:04)
I clocked it and then I rewatched it in my later twenties and was like, this is doing some interesting stuff. And I also really love Jake Gyllenhaal. I love Jake
Chad Perman (20:13)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (20:15)
Gyllenhaal and I I'm like a Gyllenhaal defender, even in the stuff that he's not very good in. Like I even I think Presumed Innocent was great. on the TV show.
Chad Perman (20:22)
Hmm. Haven't seen it, so I don't know.
Elizabeth Cantwell (20:25)
I thought it was very fun, but I really like his performance.
Chad Perman (20:29)
Did you know it's originally supposed
Chad Perman (20:30)
to be Jason Schwartzman? Until I just found that out today. Yeah. He was
Elizabeth Cantwell (20:32)
That's interesting. Interesting.
Bilge (20:32)
my god, no.
Chad Perman (20:34)
they that was all they were all brokenhearted when we had to drop access to scheduling conflicts. So yeah. No, no, as Donnie Darko. Yeah. Yeah. Like just barely post Rushmore. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (20:37)
Hmm. Huh.
Bilge (20:38)
When you say wait, you say J Jason Schwartzmann in Presumed Innocent or Donnie Darko. okay. I didn't know that either. Wow, that that would have been I mean, say this as a
Elizabeth Cantwell (20:43)
In Donnie Darko, I didn't know that. Yeah. I think Jake Gyllenhaal is great.
Bilge (20:50)
huge Jason Schwartzman fan. that would have been weird. Yeah. Very different movie. I mean, talk
Chad Perman (20:54)
Yeah, that would have been Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (20:56)
Different movie. Different movie for sure.
Bilge (20:59)
about the happy accidents that lead to this movie.
Chad Perman (21:01)
Yeah, no, I was definitely.
Chad Perman (21:02)
That was a huge happy accident. And I was
Bilge (21:04)
Wow.
Chad Perman (21:05)
when I first saw it, I I was living in Austin, Texas.
Elizabeth Cantwell (21:07)
wow.
Chad Perman (21:07)
I went to like a matinee screening
Chad Perman (21:10)
and there was only a few people there. And
Chad Perman (21:11)
There there was very little buzz around it. I maybe I read something on Ain't It Cool News or something. I I don't know how I'd even it come across my radar, but I was like, I got today off. I'm gonna go see it. And I I was blown away immediately. and It was also only there for one more week. but then started renting it like Hollywood video or whatever was around back then. and got really obsessed and it's hard to describe now because people are like, yeah, of you wanted the internet and went down a rabbit hole. And I like, No, but
Chad Perman (21:36)
This was the first movie I remember that everyone that had seen it was collectively building out fan site, all this stuff. And I was, twenty-three or twenty-four at the time and I was so obsessed with it. I was just like, This is great. Every day I wake up and someone's got some new theory. I don't care about any of that stuff now. I'm much more at the like I just like to watch it and But I was obsessed with like trying to figure all this stuff out and it was just like
Chad Perman (22:00)
I a lot of time on my hands. My wife was in grad school. I I felt like I was being scholarly by studying Donnie Darko at night, you know, on the internet.
Bilge (22:06)
it's it's funny. as obsessed as I was with this movie, I I've rarely had any desire to read up on it, you know, like to read essays on it. I mean would. No, I know. I was yeah, no, I I was a I was a jaded no, but I but but I think
Chad Perman (22:15)
But I was in my early twenties, not my late twenties. So Yeah.
Bilge (22:23)
it is one of those films where
Bilge (22:25)
You can disappear down a rabbit hole because in so many ways it doesn't really make sense. I mean it's a bit like the shining, right? It it's a bit like the shining in that sense.
Chad Perman (22:34)
But it makes sense in
Chad Perman (22:35)
like English way.
Elizabeth Cantwell (22:36)
I think it only works
Elizabeth Cantwell (22:37)
as like an experience, which goes to Lindsay's idea. Like it works
Chad Perman (22:41)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (22:41)
as an experience. I don't think it works when you try to like figure it out.
Chad Perman (22:44)
But it feels like
Chad Perman (22:45)
it might if you could crack it. And then at some point when I gave a friend to crack
Elizabeth Cantwell (22:48)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Perman (22:49)
it, I liked it even more. Cause I was like, I don't have to solve this. Who cares?
Bilge (22:51)
It works it works kind of on
Elizabeth Cantwell (22:51)
Yeah.
Bilge (22:54)
a pop level. Like you could explain it in three or four sentences, but you couldn't explain it in twenty. Like if you have to talk more about it, then you're like, Well, that doesn't really make sense and that much wait. yeah. Good point. I don't know. You know, like you'd kind
Chad Perman (23:01)
Sure.
Elizabeth Cantwell (23:01)
Mm. Yeah. It would start to fall apart. Yeah.
Chad Perman (23:06)
Well you got Roberto Sparrow and you know
Bilge (23:10)
of wind up in this sort of but
Bilge (23:13)
But that's the
Chad Perman (23:13)
discussion. Yeah.
Bilge (23:13)
beauty of that's the beauty of certain films. again, The Shining is a great example. Also, also a cult film, also a film that a lot of people initially saw and were like, ugh, and just because people get obsessed with it, and there's enough there that you can build entire crazy theories about it. and that's part of, I think, the appeal of not explaining things and also having contradictions.
Bilge (23:39)
and and there are filmmakers who taken that and run with it and do maybe a better job of
Chad Perman (23:45)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (23:47)
dotting their I's and crossing their T's. in a weird way, Christopher Nolan became the filmmaker Richard Kelly was promised to be,
Chad Perman (23:55)
Yeah.
Bilge (23:56)
I mean, it's not it's not really a
Chad Perman (23:56)
thing about that 'cause that I I Yeah.
Bilge (23:58)
Nolanesque movie, but
Bilge (24:01)
But it could be. i it i if at some point it turned out that he had made this movie, yeah, I can see it,
Chad Perman (24:09)
What if I told you he's the reason the movie got distributed?
Bilge (24:13)
Really? Well the same same company, right? Same company.
Elizabeth Cantwell (24:13)
interesting.
Chad Perman (24:15)
No, I
Chad Perman (24:16)
just I was like, I know you're the Nolan guy. And so I was like, yeah. I I wrote it down because I said it was an interview on like Awards Daily or something like that this week because there's a lot of Richard Kelly interviews because of the anniversary in his book. and it said that Nolan and his wife saw the movie. This is Richard Kelly telling this to the to the site, and told New Market Films
Chad Perman (24:35)
You should buy this movie because they'd also release Memento. so it was not famous Christopher Nolan, but it was like indie famous Christopher Nolan. 2000, yeah. So yeah. No.
Bilge (24:40)
Yeah, 'cause 'cause they'd released Memento the year before, right? Was that two thousand? Yeah, two thousand. I mean, so it was yeah, I mean it's not like New Market was around for that long. but but yeah, no, absolutely.
Bilge (24:54)
It it makes perfect sense. and I think that was also Memento was Sundance, right? It was Memento I think it was a like I think
Chad Perman (25:01)
yeah, I don't remember. Yeah. Probably.
Bilge (25:04)
I this these are like this goes in the
Chad Perman (25:07)
This is ancient times.
Bilge (25:07)
giant growing box of things I used to know and now can't remember.
Bilge (25:11)
but but I think I think Memento was actually they submitted it once to Sundance, got rejected and then they submitted again the following year or something like that. I seem to remember something
Bilge (25:20)
like this. I could be making it all up. But but yeah, no, so I think they're familiar with the sort of genre film at Sundance that could potentially become, you know, something afterwards. but yeah, you know it's
Bilge (25:37)
Another movie that I keep thinking about is Gattaca, right? I
Elizabeth Cantwell (25:40)
Mm.
Chad Perman (25:40)
yeah, I love that one, yeah.
Bilge (25:42)
l I love Gattaca, but Gattaca has kind of a similar sort of I mean, came
Chad Perman (25:46)
It's a vibe.
Bilge (25:47)
out, did very little business, had like the worst trailer ever. I completely ignored it at the time. And then like second run theater in Brooklyn, I happened to see it because it was basically playing, and I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, this rules, what the hell? Like, and then became obsessed with
Elizabeth Cantwell (26:04)
Gattaca is so
Elizabeth Cantwell (26:04)
good.
Bilge (26:05)
Gattaca is so good.
Chad Perman (26:05)
Yeah.
Bilge (26:06)
but Gattaca's also a movie where if I sat down and really tried to explain everything in it, I'd be like, I don't know, I'm not sure this works, but
Elizabeth Cantwell (26:13)
Ha ha ha.
Bilge (26:14)
it works it works enough to keep me completely riveted
Chad Perman (26:15)
Well, I gave it the benefit of the doubt 'cause of
Bilge (26:17)
when it's on, you know?
Chad Perman (26:18)
Yeah. I only went and saw I I saw that and Simone in the theaters because of the guy who wrote the Truman show had done it. And I was like, I'm all in on Andrew Nickel guy. Here's the next big film. I I'm not sure if he's even making movies anymore. No. Maybe Peter Weir had a little more to do with
Bilge (26:26)
Yeah. Yeah. T to talk about a filmmaker who did not quite live up to the initial promise, I'll still watch whatever he does.
Elizabeth Cantwell (26:35)
Wait, can I ask you guys a question?
Chad Perman (26:37)
it.
Elizabeth Cantwell (26:37)
I
Bilge (26:38)
Sure.
Elizabeth Cantwell (26:38)
said Jake Gyllenhaal and now I'm guessing myself, second guessing myself. Is it Gillenhall
Elizabeth Cantwell (26:43)
or is it Gyllenhaal?
Bilge (26:44)
It's Jill and Hall. It's Jill and Hall. I'm pretty sure.
Chad Perman (26:45)
I always heard Jill. It's like I
Elizabeth Cantwell (26:46)
Okay, that's what I
Chad Perman (26:48)
it might be GIF or Jif. You gotta just let that go. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (26:48)
I have a panic about saying names wrong, especially on a podcast. I say names wrong all the time.
Bilge (26:53)
so you're you I I've I I've
Bilge (26:56)
interviewed him and I'm almost positive it's Gyllenhaal. and yeah. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (26:59)
Okay, great. Good. I'm glad I got it right.
Bilge (27:03)
It's it's funny. I was a big fan of Stephen Gyllenhaal, the director, father, who's a filmmaker.
Elizabeth Cantwell (27:08)
Hm.
Bilge (27:09)
I was a big fan of his films back in the day. and
Chad Perman (27:11)
And the and their
Chad Perman (27:14)
mother didn't their mother write like Running Unemptive or something like she was a screenwriter. Yeah, which is like I loved that film. Yeah. One of my favorites, yeah.
Bilge (27:16)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. She she wrote Winning on Empty, which is a great, great film.
Bilge (27:22)
and but I was a big fan of their of of his films as a director, and they were not particularly well known. Like there were all these, you know, he did a number of T V movies that were like acclaimed, but you know, he was not like a name director. so when when Maggie and Jake appeared on the scene, I was like, are these Steven Gyllenhaal's kids?
Chad Perman (27:42)
No.
Elizabeth Cantwell (27:45)
I do
Elizabeth Cantwell (27:45)
love that they play siblings in the film. I think that
Chad Perman (27:48)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (27:49)
it adds like a realism to the movie that it it just like it just feels it adds to that vibe where you believe this relationship between the two of them, it feels like a real sibling relationship, which
Chad Perman (27:59)
Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (28:01)
is enjoyable.
Bilge (28:02)
G giving us casting siblings as siblings or as best friends is such a great move for a filmmaker and I and I'm shocked that they don't do it more often.
Elizabeth Cantwell (28:14)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (28:14)
I know.
Bilge (28:15)
my favorite
Bilge (28:16)
example of this is is you know Luke and Owen Wilson as fr fra fraught best
Elizabeth Cantwell (28:22)
Mm.
Chad Perman (28:22)
No, sure.
Bilge (28:24)
buddies in Bottle Rocket, where they just brings all that like crazy sibling energy
Elizabeth Cantwell (28:26)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (28:27)
Yeah.
Bilge (28:31)
to to that relationship, even though they're not brothers in the movie. I know they get well and he is playing a brother, but but it is funny, it's just but but
Chad Perman (28:34)
Well they even got the Andrew Wilson in there too, or whatever the other guy. Yeah, the the older one. Yeah.
Bilge (28:40)
that that like that's such a great like
Bilge (28:44)
You can just read between the lines of that relationship.
Chad Perman (28:46)
Exactly.
Elizabeth Cantwell (28:47)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (28:49)
So we should talk about the actual movie. Yes. I th
Bilge (28:50)
Yes, let's do that. This is the movie is
Elizabeth Cantwell (28:51)
We are talking about the movie. This is this
Bilge (28:54)
what what when a movie is a vibe, everything becomes the movie.
Elizabeth Cantwell (28:54)
is talk about the movie, Chad.
Chad Perman (28:56)
Okay. Fair enough. Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (28:59)
the movie is so much not about the plot and about the plot at the same time. It's like
Chad Perman (29:04)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (29:05)
I've been thinking about so I'm teaching this class on film noir right now, and we've been talking a lot about like Bazant and like realism. And then I threw in some Maya Darren the other day. And so I was thinking about
Chad Perman (29:18)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (29:19)
this difference between like horizontal films that sort of follow like a plot horizontally. And then like Maya Darren talks about like vertical, vertical
Chad Perman (29:27)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (29:28)
filmmaking. And I was
Elizabeth Cantwell (29:30)
Thinking a lot. I think it's just because I showed my class meshes of the afternoon and we were talking about Maya Darren, but I do feel like there's a little bit. I I well, that's why we did it.
Chad Perman (29:36)
That actually fits into one period. You can watch the whole thing.
Elizabeth Cantwell (29:42)
but I do feel like there's like a kind of a Maya Darren-esque nature to this film as well, in terms of the like time looping and the questions that it brings up, and even the mirrors. And I was thinking about these like.
Elizabeth Cantwell (29:56)
interesting patterns in the film that do feel to me more vertical than horizontal, right? That you're layering images and you're layering moments in your mind rather than trying to track this causes this causes this. I don't know if that makes sense.
Bilge (30:11)
Yeah, and and that's a
Bilge (30:12)
that no that and what's interesting is that I I I I don't know if this is what you meant by horizontal versus vertical, but in terms of the film, it is actually a film that pretends to be horizontal, but in fact turns out to be vertical, you know?
Elizabeth Cantwell (30:24)
Yes. Yeah, totally.
Bilge (30:27)
and and that's I mean that's that's also one of the things about it. Like that it takes a lot of confidence to pull that off. And I don't know if Richard Kelly is aware.
Bilge (30:35)
That he pulled that off.
Chad Perman (30:36)
Ha ha
Bilge (30:37)
it's actually sorry, I I I know we keep we keep digressing, but
Chad Perman (30:41)
let's just digress all the
Bilge (30:42)
I recently interviewed Romain Gavras, the son of Costa Gavras, who is who directed Sacrifice, which is on Netflix now,
Chad Perman (30:50)
Sure.
Bilge (30:50)
and then he directed Athena, from twenty twenty two, which is like my my my my
Chad Perman (30:54)
I remember you that was your favorite
Chad Perman (30:55)
movie of that year.
Bilge (30:56)
That's my favorite movie of the decade, I think.
Chad Perman (30:59)
wow.
Bilge (30:59)
and you know, and and like I said, he's the son of Costa Gavras, and he's a well-known music video director.
Bilge (31:05)
at the start of his career, he did a music video when he was still early twenties. that, you know, he was sorry, I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm d digressing beyond all comprehension now. His
Bilge (31:19)
Brother was lived in the same apartment building as Chris Marker. And Chris Marker was
Chad Perman (31:26)
wow.
Bilge (31:26)
like one of Romain Gavras's mentors. Like they would shoot their little videos and show them to Chris Marker. And Chris Marker was like, my God, you idiot kids, what are you doing here?
Chad Perman (31:36)
Yeah.
Bilge (31:36)
Go watch this instead. Like, but he would, I mean, he very affectionately sort of show them other movies and you know, show them, introduce them to futurism and stuff like that.
Bilge (31:46)
so when he was when he was
Chad Perman (31:47)
Ha ha.
Bilge (31:47)
in his early twenties, he he directed a music video called Stress for a band called Justice. This is you know, this is in France and and it was a featured a lot of kids just kind of going around just creating havoc in the subways and, you know, attacking people and stuff. It's it's kind of a nuts music video and it was very controversial at the time. but you know, Romain Gavras had gotten in this habit of just like showing Chris Marker
Bilge (32:13)
his stuff and Chris Marker was always like, Just this is crap. Don't don't show me this. but when they sh when it when he
Chad Perman (32:18)
It's not lajati.
Bilge (32:20)
showed him stress, Chris Marker was like and I'm I have the quote in front of me. He said, I don't think you realize what you did because you're too young and stupid, but this is beautiful. And and
Elizabeth Cantwell (32:33)
Ha ha.
Bilge (32:34)
and he disc and and Chris Marker went on to scrap he said, the Japanese call it key. It's when you touch grace without knowing it.
Elizabeth Cantwell (32:40)
Mm.
Chad Perman (32:40)
Ooh.
Bilge (32:41)
And so it was this kind of you happened upon something, possibly because you are young and confident and maybe kind of dumb, not because you're dumb, but because you're young. you don't quite know realize what you've done, but you've managed to kind of create something that is not just beautiful, but on some level transcendent, right?
Chad Perman (33:05)
Mm.
Bilge (33:05)
That's something that someone who kind of thinks about it too much probably couldn't conceive of, right?
Chad Perman (33:11)
No, exactly. Yeah, just the courage of their convictions, yeah.
Bilge (33:11)
it has it has to have a certain kind of offhand grace,
Elizabeth Cantwell (33:11)
Yeah.
Bilge (33:15)
an almost a naivete about it. And that's you know, that's one of the things about Donnie Darko for me is that it's like at every moment it touches something transcendent. It's very hard to describe what that is, but it absolutely captures it. And there are all these moments in the film that like step out of time. I mean, th th you know, they might be narrative moments in the film, they might be narrative.
Bilge (33:39)
points, they might be things that explain something or or introduce an element or something like that. But they also stand on their own as just something that's incredibly beautiful, right? the the the the scene that always gets me. there are multiple scenes in the film that get me, but the scene that always gets me is the scene in the movie theater, right?
Elizabeth Cantwell (33:59)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (33:59)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (33:59)
and the music is I mean the music is incredible in that moment. But then
Elizabeth Cantwell (34:02)
Yeah, we
Chad Perman (34:02)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (34:02)
gotta acknowledge that the
Elizabeth Cantwell (34:04)
needle drops in this movie are are insanely good.
Bilge (34:05)
The the
Bilge (34:07)
needle drops are great. Although that's i is that a needle drop in that scene, or is that the is that score? I think that's score. It might
Elizabeth Cantwell (34:11)
maybe not. That's score maybe.
Bilge (34:14)
be a needle drop. I'm not sure. But it is, it's it's classical, it's kind of choral.
Chad Perman (34:18)
Yeah.
Bilge (34:18)
it's it's almost like a a it's like a like a Russian chant, but has a bit of a beat to it, you know? and it, you know, this the scene, the the screen of the movie theater opens up and it's like
Bilge (34:35)
tacky 2000s CGI, it doesn't look great, but
Chad Perman (34:38)
Yeah.
Bilge (34:40)
I would not want it any other way.
Chad Perman (34:41)
Yeah.
Bilge (34:42)
And the way it opens up and the way it leads him into this into this world, with Frank sort of sort of egging him on very quietly. But with this but it's not in this up until that point it's been mysterious, but now there's an element of real sadness to it because
Bilge (35:02)
Because I think at this point we've seen Frank's face, right? And we've seen that he's been shot in the eye. Yeah.
Chad Perman (35:09)
yeah, yeah.
Bilge (35:10)
So so we know that like death hovers over this thing. and so it has a certain gravity. and that just makes its beauty that much more powerful. The the whole scene is just incredible. And like narratively, I'm still not entirely certain.
Bilge (35:31)
That's why that scene is there, but it's fucking great.
Elizabeth Cantwell (35:34)
I also think that scene is
Elizabeth Cantwell (35:35)
so it it it also highlights the subtle surrealism of the film that works so well because no one else is in the movie theater, which
Bilge (35:43)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (35:44)
is crazy, right? Like even when you go to a matinee, usually there's a couple other people there. There's some old guy in the corner, or there's some weird you know what I mean? Like it the fact that it's a totally empty movie theater,
Bilge (35:55)
yeah.
Chad Perman (35:55)
of course, yeah. The guy that gets up and goes to the bathroom and
Elizabeth Cantwell (35:58)
is so
Elizabeth Cantwell (36:00)
It's such an interesting surrealistic
Chad Perman (36:00)
It's like a liminal space, right?
Elizabeth Cantwell (36:02)
choice. Yeah.
Bilge (36:02)
And it's a how it's
Bilge (36:03)
Halloween Fright Fest at this theater and on the double
Elizabeth Cantwell (36:06)
Yeah.
Bilge (36:06)
bill is the last temptation of Christ. You know, like, okay, yeah, like
Chad Perman (36:08)
Yes. Well, and I do
Elizabeth Cantwell (36:09)
Right.
Chad Perman (36:11)
like that when you connect to the end and the sacrifice too. I was like Yeah Yeah.
Bilge (36:13)
yeah, I it's it's there it's there for that reason.
Elizabeth Cantwell (36:13)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bilge (36:15)
they even pan up to it, but it's at the time
Chad Perman (36:17)
Yeah.
Bilge (36:17)
it's kinda like I don't remember at the time I think I knew that that that because because I'd s seen friends talk about it, I knew that The Last Temptation of Christ was significant to sort of the end of the movie. So I didn't think about it when I first saw it, but like I I
Chad Perman (36:32)
But also making
Chad Perman (36:32)
that making that movie as significant to the end of your movie when you're like a you know, twenty something first time director. It's like that's just like the audacity, you know? Yeah.
Bilge (36:38)
I know, right? yeah. The balls. Exactly. That's that's Chris Marker
Bilge (36:43)
saying you have no idea what you've done, but you've done something amazing. but yeah,
Elizabeth Cantwell (36:45)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Perman (36:45)
Yeah.
Bilge (36:48)
no, so no, but like it's like if I were watching that film not knowing anything about it, would that moment and maybe you guys might remember, but would that pan up to show that they're showing the last temptation of Christ? Would that have just been like a funny sight gag?
Chad Perman (37:02)
That was funny. Yeah.
Chad Perman (37:03)
I didn't connect that until maybe maybe when I saw it this week. Like
Bilge (37:07)
Yeah, no, but it's but but
Bilge (37:09)
as a sight gag, it probably worked pretty well too. It's almost like the platoon sight gag in Naked Gun, right? Which I believe is a is
Chad Perman (37:11)
It worked. It absolutely worked. A lot of stuff works.
Elizabeth Cantwell (37:15)
This is
Bilge (37:16)
it a nineteen eighty-eight release? I think it might be a nineteen eighty release.
Bilge (37:19)
but it is kind of a funny you know, cause that scene in in Naked Gun where they're
Chad Perman (37:25)
Yeah.
Bilge (37:26)
d during the happy montage, happy romantic montage, and they're walking out of a theater laughing
Chad Perman (37:29)
But
Bilge (37:30)
and it
Chad Perman (37:30)
yes. Yeah. But
Bilge (37:31)
pans up and they watch Platoon. Yeah.
Bilge (37:33)
but but yeah, no, I mean it's it's th you're absolutely right. I mean the the the weird elements of surrealism, you know, are all over this movie. And some of that is probably also just like narrative convenience, you know.
Elizabeth Cantwell (37:50)
Yeah.
Bilge (37:50)
but it works. Like it he makes it work,
Chad Perman (37:53)
Yeah.
Bilge (37:54)
you know.
Chad Perman (37:55)
And I think it works on multiple levels because I remember the first time I'm the whole kind of question that was hovering over for me back then was, you know, is is he just crazy?
Chad Perman (38:04)
and so you're you're kinda trying to figure out like i is is he just like mentally unstable or is all this stuff really going on? They don't really
Chad Perman (38:12)
it was a real question the first that's what I remember. And then there'd be these funny things, there'd be this great music.
Chad Perman (38:17)
it immediately situated you in that time. And
Bilge (38:19)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (38:20)
right right from that first scene when they bring when they bring up Dukakis.
Bilge (38:23)
Yeah, and also mean I don't know, this is again, like I said, in eighty eight I in eighty eight I was fifteen years old. So I was a little younger than you know, Donnie. But but the thing is the like the music they're listening to, it's not really eighty eight music, it's earlier. Like it's it's yeah, it's it's like kind of it it's like new romantics, yeah, it's like new romantics
Chad Perman (38:45)
No, it's a little earlier, yeah. Eighty eight was like Rick Astley and stuff.
Bilge (38:50)
style, you know.
Bilge (38:52)
and in eighty eight.
Bilge (38:54)
th the the people I knew did not listen to that music. Now it might be, you know, like I mean those were the those were cooler kids. Cooler kids
Chad Perman (38:58)
No. Well maybe on college radio or something, yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (38:59)
Mm.
Bilge (39:03)
listen to that music. So, you know, I don't know, Echo
Chad Perman (39:06)
Yeah.
Bilge (39:06)
and the Bunny Man and you know.
Chad Perman (39:08)
We got a
Chad Perman (39:09)
little taste of I remember the the cure crossed over a little bit somewhere in there for 'cause
Bilge (39:13)
C the cure did, yeah.
Chad Perman (39:14)
of MTV. But yeah, there was not a lot of that. We were listen
Bilge (39:16)
Yeah, yeah.
Chad Perman (39:17)
I was listening to I was eleven, but I was listening to Debbie Gibson and you know, Tiffany. UB Fordia.
Elizabeth Cantwell (39:21)
I do feel like another, like another
Bilge (39:22)
Vanity or Tiffany, Tiffany, not Vanity. yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (39:27)
another reason for the 80s setting, another reason the 80s setting works is this sort of again, this idea of like a false comfort that we had, right? That
Chad Perman (39:39)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (39:39)
I think is even more present to us watching it in 2026. But the idea of like everything's going to be okay or our
Elizabeth Cantwell (39:47)
Family is economically stable, or you're going to school because you go to college. these sort of givens that we were told
Chad Perman (39:54)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (39:55)
in the 80s, like this is how the world works. And then I feel like I, as a kid in the 80s and early 90s, had these moments of resistance mentally to like, I don't want to just buy into the system, right? Like, how can I, how can I not buy into the system? Well, yeah, I mean, and for
Chad Perman (40:09)
Yeah. Well that was that was some nineties stuff.
Elizabeth Cantwell (40:13)
me, I'm yeah, a little younger than you guys, so.
Elizabeth Cantwell (40:17)
It was the 90s for sure when I was like, I don't want this. I don't want this systematic thing
Chad Perman (40:21)
Corporate magazines still suck.
Elizabeth Cantwell (40:22)
that I'm being sold. and I think that Donnie Darko feels very prescient, even for 2001, because obviously when they were making it, they didn't really know yet how much everything was just about to fall apart. But this sort of like, yeah, this sort of like entropic,
Chad Perman (40:39)
No, yeah, the whole whole world changed a month before it came out.
Elizabeth Cantwell (40:44)
like chaotic.
Elizabeth Cantwell (40:46)
feeling that of a runaway train that you can't stop of all these things that are falling
Chad Perman (40:51)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (40:51)
apart as you know them, and the desire to do whatever you can to buy back safety for the people you love. Because that's really the choice at the end. I mean, it's really a choice of it's a choice of love, I think for for Gretchen, really, right? It's how can I? Yeah.
Chad Perman (41:07)
Yeah. Well, and his family I'm not quite
Chad Perman (41:12)
sure, would would they have otherwise the mom and the daughter died on that plane or is that not that's part I've never figured out.
Elizabeth Cantwell (41:18)
I don't know. And that's part of the like we can't think about it too hard. But I
Bilge (41:22)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (41:23)
do feel like Yeah. I don't know. But I do think that the the impulse comes
Bilge (41:23)
By about sentence fifteen you get to that. I don't I d actually I don't know if they yeah. yeah.
Chad Perman (41:27)
Yeah. It was a sacrifice though.
Elizabeth Cantwell (41:31)
from Gret it comes from Gretchen's death, right? And and
Chad Perman (41:33)
Yes. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (41:34)
it becomes like, how do I save the people I love? And how do I save the world I love? Yeah. And that too.
Bilge (41:38)
And Frank's death. Yeah, and Frank,
Chad Perman (41:40)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (41:42)
How do I take back these sort of things that are happening?
Bilge (41:44)
he he he
Bilge (41:45)
saves someone who he doesn't know really. and he saves someone
Elizabeth Cantwell (41:49)
Yeah.
Bilge (41:50)
he loves. and
Elizabeth Cantwell (41:52)
But he spares the pedophile, which I don't like.
Bilge (41:55)
That's and that's the thing. Every sing
Bilge (41:57)
every single time I watch the film really? e every single time I I forg well I forget every single
Chad Perman (41:59)
I never thought about that till right now. No, no, I mean I never realized yeah, he's fine. Yeah
Elizabeth Cantwell (42:01)
No, I hate it.
Elizabeth Cantwell (42:06)
He is fine.
Bilge (42:07)
time I have to remind myself, wait, does this mean Patrick Swayze does and of course there's a total cutaway to Patrick Swayze at the end. We know he's alive and he's in torment.
Elizabeth Cantwell (42:15)
Yeah.
Bilge (42:16)
He's like sitting there with his shirt off crying and it's like, you know. I
Chad Perman (42:17)
Yeah. But why is he crying even?
Bilge (42:20)
think the I mean the assumption is that
Elizabeth Cantwell (42:20)
He had a bad dream.
Bilge (42:21)
he's he's he's racked with guilt and
Bilge (42:25)
in some ways he gets a fate worse than death.
Chad Perman (42:27)
He was still gonna run for
Elizabeth Cantwell (42:29)
But does he get to just continue doing terrible things in his life? I guess so.
Chad Perman (42:29)
so Yeah.
Bilge (42:29)
Yeah, but but l listen, he his
Bilge (42:33)
life will be terrible, but he will
Elizabeth Cantwell (42:33)
That's also the way the world works.
Bilge (42:35)
yes, that's the thing. I ev again, every time I watch the film, and I have seen this movie, I'm not kidding. I have seen this movie like 25 times. every time I forget that he survives at the end, or that that
Chad Perman (42:48)
Yeah.
Bilge (42:48)
that that he's okay at the end. and like I totally forget that there's a cutaway to him specifically making because I was like, is this just a thing that they left unkind of unresolved? And it's like, no, no, there's a cutaway, like we
Bilge (43:01)
He wants us to know this guy got off, or got away.
Bilge (43:03)
but
Bilge (43:04)
But that's the thing about the movie though is that when when you when you suggested this as like a Halloween theme thing, I had to remind myself, I'm like, right, it's like a it's like a Halloween, like it's like a horror movie kind of. It's a thriller. And because my the the vibe I've gotten from this movie has never been terror or fear or the kind of helplessness that I feel when I watch something in the horror genre or even the suspense genre. The
Bilge (43:31)
to me the movie always feels like the the vibe of the film is just sad. It's a very sad movie right from the beginning. And by the end, it's also it's still sad, even though there is a weird triumph. But it doesn't go from sad to resolved and happy. It goes from sad to unresolved and like
Bilge (43:56)
Different sad. I can even kind of worse kind of sad. but it like never quite leaves that world. It's just an incredibly melancholy film. And I think that's also why it strikes a nerve, because it feels in a in a weird way, especially strikes a nerve with young people. And when I say young, I'm like people in their twenties and stuff, and probably younger, but like
Chad Perman (44:17)
my son's seventeen and he a couple days ago. He saw it when he was fourteen the first time I showed it to and he's like, That was pretty interesting. Then he saw it last year. He's like, I I really get this now.
Bilge (44:26)
I I I I was gonna
Bilge (44:27)
show it to my son on this most recent rewatch, but he's just so busy with schoolwork for some reason these days that is I mean, no, he's very good at
Chad Perman (44:32)
Yeah. Well, you're a good parent then.
Bilge (44:36)
like just doing his homework on his own, which is shocking to me because I was never like that.
Chad Perman (44:39)
Yeah.
Bilge (44:40)
I feel like I'm doing it wrong by sitting in the basement watching Donnie Darko and haven't has shown it to him yet. but but I do think that that's one of the reasons why it strikes such a chord.
Bilge (44:53)
with younger viewers because when you're young you're you're sad, but in a way where where you can't quite place why you're sad. You can't articulate
Chad Perman (45:00)
yeah, no exactly. You can't articulate it, yeah.
Bilge (45:05)
it. There's a certain incoate melancholy that just it has something to do with the world.
Chad Perman (45:10)
And it has something to do with the world. you're you're more aware
Chad Perman (45:13)
of the world that is coming towards you. But but it you can't
Bilge (45:16)
Yeah. it
Chad Perman (45:17)
really articulate why that sucks yet. It's just but we should talk to the high school teacher.
Bilge (45:19)
Yeah. And it's like
Elizabeth Cantwell (45:19)
But I also think well, kids are very sad.
Bilge (45:23)
yeah, well sh wait, are you teaching film
Bilge (45:26)
noir to high schoolers? my god, good for you. Holy shit, that's awesome.
Elizabeth Cantwell (45:27)
I am. It's very fun actually. They're they're digging it. They love it.
Elizabeth Cantwell (45:31)
They loved out of the past so much. They it fills my heart with joy.
Chad Perman (45:35)
That is such I was so glad when you saw
Bilge (45:35)
By the way, when
Bilge (45:36)
when this recording is over I have something I need to run by you, but film noir related. Yeah, I just watched Out of the Past myself. Rewatched. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (45:41)
Great. Let's put a pin in it. so good. So good.
Chad Perman (45:42)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (45:46)
but okay, what I was gonna say is.
Chad Perman (45:49)
Is this gonna be a Robert Mitchum Thurst? I saw you I saw your post. He was the most beautiful man alive, you said, I believe.
Elizabeth Cantwell (45:51)
I love Robert Mitchum. No, I won't. I'll I'll I'll I'll restrain myself. He was so beautiful. He was so beautiful.
Bilge (45:57)
He really was.
Elizabeth Cantwell (45:58)
I was having trouble with my students. I was like, guys, he's so beautiful. He's literally the most beautiful man. I know, right? I was thinking a lot about Drew Barrymore
Bilge (46:02)
You're right. You're getting fired.
Elizabeth Cantwell (46:09)
watching this movie. Okay, this side tangent. I hate how English teachers
Chad Perman (46:14)
To the digression.
Elizabeth Cantwell (46:15)
are portrayed in film. I just want to state for the record.
Chad Perman (46:19)
yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (46:19)
That I don't know a single English teacher who has ever opened class with a dramatic reading of a passage
Chad Perman (46:25)
Ha ha
Elizabeth Cantwell (46:26)
from a book with a few words written up on the board that's never occurred in the history of English teachers, and that's all we're ever shown doing in movies is like reading a dramatic passage with our glasses, you know, like I got my glasses. But
Chad Perman (46:34)
But you're always talking about cellar door and stuff.
Elizabeth Cantwell (46:41)
to go back to the sadness and the emotions of the movie, I do think it is so fascinating that.
Elizabeth Cantwell (46:48)
We are fed this fear love spectrum through the lens of this insane bad person, Patrick Swayze, right? And and we see it in the context of like a terrible health and wellness style high school class where you would hate it, right? And everyone's
Chad Perman (47:02)
Kitty. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (47:05)
making fun of it. And you got the terrible little video that's hilarious with the kid that says, I'm not afraid anymore. Right. And so
Chad Perman (47:11)
Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth Cantwell (47:13)
we see this fear-love spectrum. And when we see it, our impulse is, this is stupid.
Elizabeth Cantwell (47:17)
Right. And Donnie Darko reads the scenario and he says, This is stupid. It's not as simple as fear and love. It's so much more complicated. And yet, at the end of the movie, he
Chad Perman (47:27)
Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth Cantwell (47:28)
has to choose between fear and love. And he chooses love. Right. And and in a way, the sadness comes along with like he's right that it is more complicated. There's this sort of hanging over like sadness and then euphoria, right? At the end of like, I've done the right thing.
Elizabeth Cantwell (47:47)
but I also think it's so interesting that he has to make a a scenario on the fear love spectrum choice.
Bilge (47:54)
I mean that's that that's so true though. That's like
Bilge (47:56)
i i it it's such a classic move on on a writer director's part to to to hide the the meaning of the film in something being presented by the dumbest character in the movie, you know? Like
Chad Perman (48:09)
Ha ha ha.
Elizabeth Cantwell (48:09)
Yes.
Bilge (48:10)
the thing you're supposed to laugh at. Actually that's sort of like where it's where the meaning is hidden, where the theme is where the central theme is hidden. yeah, I mean I think there's like I said, w you know
Bilge (48:22)
It captures that not quite adolescent, but youthful melancholy. And I think that's why every time I watch the film, I think, is it gonna suck this time? Like, is it is it gonna not work this time? Every time I re-watch
Chad Perman (48:36)
I do that too every time.
Elizabeth Cantwell (48:37)
Mm.
Bilge (48:38)
it, I'm like, it's probably not gonna work this time. Or it's probably it's probably gonna go down in my estimation. But it doesn't. But it doesn't in the in a in a strange way that.
Bilge (48:50)
Contrary to other movies that I rewatch, right? Because a lot of movies I rewatch because every time I watch it, I'm different and the movie feels different. Barry Linden is my classic example. Barry Linden, you gr I grow up watching Barry Linden. every stage of my life, a different part of Barry Linden resonates for me. And
Chad Perman (49:07)
Yeah.
Bilge (49:08)
it's that's
Elizabeth Cantwell (49:08)
Hmm.
Bilge (49:09)
part of the, the greatness of that movie. Donnie Darko doesn't do that. Donnie Darko, when I watch it, I'm suddenly in my twenties again. Like it like I'm in my tw like the the film captures
Chad Perman (49:16)
Takes you right back there. Yeah, exactly.
Bilge (49:20)
that.
Bilge (49:21)
melancholy so well that it it's it's it is its own time capsule it's like its own time machine it takes you back to that in the same way that it sort of takes you back to its setting it also takes you back to like how you felt when you when you first watched it or when you first became obsessed with it. Because usually when I watch movies now like I see it from the perspective of who I am now and I would think that like watching Donnie Darko I'd be maybe
Bilge (49:49)
Trying to almost see it from the perspective of the parent, right? Because I've got a, you I've got a 17-year-old, all the time, right? But not, but not Donnie Darko. And when I watch
Chad Perman (49:52)
Yeah. I've done that with movies as I saw as a kid, yeah. Yeah, now I'm like, I get the parents point now. But yeah. No.
Elizabeth Cantwell (49:55)
Yeah.
Bilge (50:01)
Donnie Darko, I am Donnie. I I am not dad. I'm not mom. I'm Donnie, you know? and yeah, you know, it's just, I don't know. It's there's something there's something beautiful about that. Not a lot of films can pull that off. Not a lot of films can hold up.
Bilge (50:18)
But also take you back to who you were and how you were when you when you first vibed with it. I wonder, I feel
Chad Perman (50:25)
And I
Bilge (50:26)
I feel like maybe the graduate is that way for people.
Elizabeth Cantwell (50:28)
Hm.
Bilge (50:29)
that wasn't one of my signature movies.
Chad Perman (50:30)
Yeah.
Bilge (50:30)
I love the graduate, but there are a lot of people who, were very young when they saw The Graduate and still love that movie, but I think maybe they go back to that when they see that.
Chad Perman (50:40)
Yeah, that was a very culturally specific film too. So it would definitely put you back in what, sixty-seven or whatever. I
Bilge (50:43)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chad Perman (50:47)
don't but but I was gonna do use that as a jumping off point 'cause I I just it wasn't super complex research. I just typed, you know, your name and Donnie Darko into Twitter. but there was a thing, it was two thousand July of two thousand eighteen, so what's that be? Like a little over eight years ago. but I I I I Yeah, it's a tweet. Yeah, yeah, yeah. no no
Bilge (51:03)
no. Is it tweets? It's tweets, right? Okay, okay, 'cause I was gonna say I don't think I've ever actually written about this movie. Okay.
Chad Perman (51:10)
you did that's how I had the idea to suggest this movie. it was some it was one of those like multiple I think it was on Vulture, but like multiple people picking something and it was like twenty thirteen or fourteen, but you had written a little s like capsule thing on Donnie Darko as your pick for it might have been Halloween, I don't know. I don't remember what the the overarching list was, but definitely was on there. But anyway, on Twitter in two thousand eighteen and
Chad Perman (51:38)
it was in the context. So the tweet before it said I would happily start a movie theater that was basically built on midnight Donnie Darko screenings. and then someone replied and I didn't read the reply, but your reply to that was, I am a person who saw Donnie Darko many times, which, no joke, made me a better person. So I am curious, at least eight years ago, how how watching this movie so many times.
Chad Perman (52:02)
how does it make you how does it make one a better person?
Bilge (52:03)
huh. Yeah.
Bilge (52:07)
It's interesting. I wonder I
Bilge (52:08)
wonder th I'm I must have been thinking s about something very specific when I said that. and which of course I now don't remember.
Chad Perman (52:15)
Yeah.
Bilge (52:17)
but I think, you know
Bilge (52:21)
I mentioned earlier that I was, it was the Pioneer Theater had, I believe, ninety-nine seats. very small and they were not like, you know, this was before the era of like stadium seating. This was a small theater,
Chad Perman (52:33)
They didn't recline.
Bilge (52:35)
right? It was a tiny, tiny theater, and it's not around anymore. And they showed a lot of really hell, they showed my movie. Like when I released a feature, they showed my film.
Bilge (52:44)
Lena but they r you know, they showed very small movies, some cult stuff.
Bilge (52:48)
They they were not like a first r they they would do first runs but of really super independent movies. they they were like it wasn't even like, you know, film form or Angelica. They were even more kind of specialized than that. and they're and they're you know, like
Bilge (53:04)
The person who ran the theater was also like the projectionist much of the time and the programmer. I mean, this was there was I had a friend named Ray Provet, who sadly has also passed away, who who actually ran the the Pioneer Theater for a while, but I think this was before he took over.
Chad Perman (53:20)
Okay.
Bilge (53:20)
but but I mentioned how I saw the the the audience grow, but because it was a small theater and I would get I'm a person who gets to the movies early. so I just sit
Chad Perman (53:31)
Mm.
Bilge (53:32)
there and I would just listen in on people.
Bilge (53:34)
Right. And it was this really I used to have I used to have this sort of inherent distrust of other people who were interested in film, like when I was younger. Like it
Chad Perman (53:48)
Yeah.
Bilge (53:49)
was this kind of like, you know, the way people are always like railing against hipsters, like, these people couldn't possibly be as authentic as I am, or they couldn't possibly
Bilge (53:58)
appreciate this on the level that I can you're when you're when you're younger, you're always feeling that d this is a thing that I have I'd like to think I've grown out of. But sitting there in a theater where I felt like I owned that space because I'd been coming since and
Chad Perman (54:14)
Yeah.
Bilge (54:16)
and like all these people come. You know, a lot of NYU students a lot of NYU film students, you know, a lot of people just like talking about movies. And I'm listening to their
Bilge (54:24)
eavesdropping on their conversations. not even it's not like they're sitting right behind me and talking, because they're on a date and I'm there by myself, you know.
Elizabeth Cantwell (54:32)
Mm-hmm.
Bilge (54:33)
so but like but yeah I I'm I'm hearing and I'm like kind of privy to all these little worlds. And I just like by the end of that run, like as it sort of grew and grew and grew, I was just full of love for these people around me. Like it felt like,
Bilge (54:50)
I was I just felt like, right, these are people, they're like me. They're slightly younger versions of me, and they're they're just here discovering this thing. Some of them are coming, because they've seen the movie already and they love it, or some of them are discovering it for the first time. And I just I was it was this sense that I
Chad Perman (55:10)
So you bec you c became a humanist.
Bilge (55:12)
Well, it was this sign of, wait, these are these are my people. I found my people,
Chad Perman (55:16)
Yeah.
Bilge (55:17)
I th I think that's what I was trying to get at because I do remember,
Chad Perman (55:20)
Mm.
Bilge (55:21)
that that period being you're always tense, you're always angry, you're always like
Chad Perman (55:28)
Yeah.
Bilge (55:29)
that's also what Bonnie Darko is about, right? Like
Chad Perman (55:31)
Yes.
Bilge (55:32)
you you you know, you're holding the world at bay and you're confrontational towards everybody. And somehow you come to accept it and you come to see the beauty.
Bilge (55:41)
and the humanity of the people around you and the fact that they're worth saving and preserving and and treasuring. and yeah, I think I think that's probably what it was. Yeah.
Chad Perman (55:54)
Okay. That's
Elizabeth Cantwell (55:54)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (55:54)
great.
Elizabeth Cantwell (55:55)
Chad,
Elizabeth Cantwell (55:55)
maybe you have a thought on this, but I do think that the movie is less interesting as a thesis about a kid who can time travel or can see the future than it is about as it than it is if you think about it as a film about the interconnectedness of people and the importance of connecting to each other.
Chad Perman (56:13)
No, for sure. Yeah. A hundred percent.
Elizabeth Cantwell (56:16)
Like I think that it doesn't quite work on the
Elizabeth Cantwell (56:20)
time travel level all the time, but it really works on the idea of this interconnectivity.
Chad Perman (56:28)
Yeah, I don't think it would have held up for, twenty five years if if it was just about the the
Bilge (56:33)
yeah.
Chad Perman (56:34)
time travel stuff. 'Cause I mean there there's been other films like that, you know, that I mean yeah, yeah, I think it there is something there's some special thing about it. I think we all keep trying to articulate, but it's somewhere in the middle of what we're talking about.
Bilge (56:46)
And so many of
Bilge (56:46)
those other films that do do the time travel stuff and kind of play with like the sort of wormholes and loopholes and stuff like that,
Chad Perman (56:55)
Yeah.
Bilge (56:56)
there can be something very antiseptic about that type of story.
Chad Perman (57:00)
Pretty dry too, yeah.
Bilge (57:04)
I'm I'm I'm gonna talk about a movie briefly. I'm gonna talk briefly about a movie I don't like very
Chad Perman (57:08)
Ha ha ha.
Bilge (57:09)
much, but a lot of people love, or at least they loved, until the director got canceled. But Primer is a movie that kind of does this stuff. I have
Elizabeth Cantwell (57:15)
Yeah. Yeah.
Bilge (57:18)
never been able to like, and I'm not saying this because he's like a bad person. I saw Primer like in a press screening
Chad Perman (57:22)
Yeah.
Bilge (57:23)
earlier. I was like, I don't get this. What's good about this? and other people are like, my God, that's like that movie blew my mind, you know, and
Chad Perman (57:29)
Yeah.
Bilge (57:30)
and
Bilge (57:31)
I've never quite gotten it because in some weird way that movie feels I don't know, I've always felt like it's devoid of humanity. I'm sure if I saw it again I would I would notice other things about it. But I've never really wanted to watch it again because it never really made me feel like I was getting anything that was it's worth exploring. Let's go back and sort of see what the movie did. unlike Donnie Darko. But but regardless, like this is
Bilge (57:58)
A a subgenre, I guess we call it a sub genre, that lends itself to a very antiseptic here's what happened, here are the kind of the connections, the plot points, this is the puzzle, this is the solution to the puzzle. Yes, maybe there's some ambiguity there where you can find the the art, but it's like there's something very diagrammatic and however crazy the story might
Chad Perman (58:23)
You talk about primer?
Bilge (58:25)
I I'm talking about this type of genre in general.
Chad Perman (58:26)
okay.
Bilge (58:27)
Right.
Bilge (58:28)
And but but like those movies probably make more sense if you diagram them out. Right. Donnie Darko
Chad Perman (58:33)
sure.
Bilge (58:34)
in many ways doesn't wouldn't make sense if you tried to diagram out. Maybe it does, I don't know. But like I feel like if I tried to diagram it out, it wouldn't make sense.
Chad Perman (58:40)
Ha ha ha.
Bilge (58:40)
but it's full of such humanity and and such warmth in that way and so much emotion that like I don't want to diagram it out because that part is the least interesting part for me. Right. And that I mean that that montage at the end, the Mad World montage.
Bilge (58:55)
Which is heartbreaking and and and it's and there's no sense watching that of of like, all right, I'll b okay, maybe Donnie's dead, but everybody else is okay. Nobody is okay at the end of that movie.
Chad Perman (59:09)
No.
Bilge (59:10)
You know? but but somehow there's something still so beautiful and human and warm about it. and that's also why the director's
Bilge (59:18)
cut kind of sucks, because the director's cut actually
Bilge (59:20)
tries to explain that stuff, it's like, no, that's not what what's
Chad Perman (59:23)
Yeah.
Bilge (59:24)
interesting about your film,
Elizabeth Cantwell (59:26)
There's that scene in the movie that, and this is one of the reasons that I get mad they undo the Swayze stuff. But I think one of the key scenes in the movie for me is that movie where Patrick Swayze comes to the school to speak and he's bringing those kids up on stage and they're like, I I wanna do this, or like, I'm mad about that,
Chad Perman (59:43)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (59:44)
or like whatever. And obviously Donnie Darko gets up and says the amazing line, I think you're the fucking antichrist.
Chad Perman (59:51)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (59:52)
which is like the line of 2025 and 2026 for me. Like
Chad Perman (59:55)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (59:56)
I send that screenshot to people all the time. But the point of that moment is also about him trying to reach those kids and saying, like, you don't need you there's another way to do this. There's another way to be a person. And you don't need to buy into some fake shit to like to to have a better life. And I think that's such a beautiful moment.
Bilge (01:00:17)
Y you your your problems are not there to be solved. Your problems are there to make you who you are, you know? and that and
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:00:25)
Yes, exactly, exactly.
Bilge (01:00:27)
that the I mean d Donnie's speech, that's th th I take it back. Certain things do change for me when I watch the movie now. And
Chad Perman (01:00:34)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:00:34)
this time I was like, that's like the greatest scene ever. Good morning, you know, like
Chad Perman (01:00:38)
Ha ha ha.
Bilge (01:00:39)
like that with that demonic
Chad Perman (01:00:43)
He's Yeah.
Bilge (01:00:46)
Jake Gyllenhaal smile. I was like, that's I need to turn that into a a jiff and and send that to people.
Chad Perman (01:00:51)
How much are they paying you to be here?
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:00:54)
No,
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:00:54)
I literally send that I think you're the fucking antichrist shot. all my husband and I will text that back and forth to each other. Not to each not to each other. About something else happening in the world because
Bilge (01:01:02)
Y yeah, I was I was gonna say, where are we going with this?
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:01:07)
it feels so well true. but
Chad Perman (01:01:08)
Yeah, we're talking about scenes from a marriage. Yeah.
Bilge (01:01:09)
Ha ha.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:01:11)
it feels so like relevant to how
Bilge (01:01:14)
yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:01:14)
you look around and go like, what the fuck? you know, and like, yeah, it's great.
Bilge (01:01:18)
And what's the
Chad Perman (01:01:19)
And that certainly
Bilge (01:01:19)
and what's great about it is
Chad Perman (01:01:19)
resonates more now.
Bilge (01:01:21)
at that point, Patrick Swayze has done nothing. Like like I mean, we we we know we will eventually find out that he's a he's a he's
Chad Perman (01:01:26)
Yeah. Just kinda smar me, but yeah.
Bilge (01:01:30)
a horrible, horrible, monstrous human being. But at that point, and obviously we we've seen him I mean he's been a he's kind of a jerk, we get that. But at that point, he hasn't done that much. So what Donnie is doing is like it's it's it feels
Bilge (01:01:46)
almost like an unwarranted escalation. But but Donnie is like weirdly, and even though at that point we don't really know well, he's he's he's a seer. He he's a seer.
Chad Perman (01:01:52)
He's got superpowers, he knows. He knows something's wrong.
Bilge (01:01:55)
He doesn't know what he's seeing, but he's seeing something. And he kind of understands something about the world that he can't articulate. and maybe that's also part of the beauty of the movie and why it resonates so much, especially for younger viewers, is that I I keep saying younger viewers
Bilge (01:02:14)
younger than me, people in their twenties, you know. I I make it sound like it's f it's like a kitty movie, but like no.
Chad Perman (01:02:17)
But it resonates for you too, so you can't even really say that. I mean I read
Chad Perman (01:02:21)
something compared to like a breakfast club, like it's a rite of passage like type of a movie that it resonates with people at a very specific time.
Bilge (01:02:26)
It is. And
Bilge (01:02:28)
and I think but part of what it is is that it gets at the sense of a character who sees something about the world and can't quite articulate it. And he probably couldn't articulate it entirely by the end of the movie either, right? But but but he Yeah.
Chad Perman (01:02:43)
Well that's why I think his laugh is so great at the end right
Chad Perman (01:02:45)
before he dies 'cause I he doesn't have to say maybe he couldn't articulate why, but he's just like, Okay, that's o I love that laugh at the end right before
Bilge (01:02:52)
He
Bilge (01:02:52)
he gets the the absurdity of the world, And it's funny
Chad Perman (01:02:56)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:02:56)
because because I watch that scene and and sometimes I think to myself, did they just put that scene in there just so we're not totally miserable about him dying? That we just need to make sure
Chad Perman (01:03:04)
Ha ha ha.
Bilge (01:03:06)
we see him happy. But no, it's just there's something I don't know, and this also goes back to what you were saying earlier about Jake Gyllenhaal. I mean, he is so good in this. I love him too. I think he's a phenomenal actor. I also
Bilge (01:03:22)
Love him in Roadhouse taking Patrick Swayze's mantle.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:03:25)
I haven't seen that. I haven't seen that because
Chad Perman (01:03:26)
I haven't seen that one yet.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:03:28)
I'm so I love the original so much that I was like, I don't know if I can do this.
Bilge (01:03:33)
I'm not the
Bilge (01:03:33)
world's biggest fan of the original, I must admit. So I was I was less reverent about it and I just enjoyed it for what it is. But you know, I mean it's like he the like when I interviewed Jake Gyllenhaal about this, I was like, I asked him for his memories of Patrick Swayze because I was like, you're taking Patrick Swayze's iconic part, you know. but but that's why he's so good in this, because he has that I mean he's very good looking guy.
Bilge (01:04:03)
and very charismatic and very charming. you like him. You like Jake Gyllenhaal. But there's also something about Jake Gyllenhaal that is absolutely psychotic and and
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:04:12)
Yes.
Bilge (01:04:12)
has become even more so over the years, which is actually kind of why I think it it works like Roadhouse works.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:04:21)
Mm.
Bilge (01:04:22)
but but there is this sort of s unhinged quality in him. As he's gotten older and less boyish, I think that's actually kind of come to the forefront. And he gets that, he totally understands that. But
Bilge (01:04:32)
But Donnie Darko is such a perfect example of this all all these elements working perfectly at that age, right? We like him, we totally get it. He's good looking, he's charming, but there's that that slight edge of what's going on here? What's going on inside this kid's head,
Chad Perman (01:04:52)
Yeah, which they they
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:04:53)
Chad.
Chad Perman (01:04:53)
let him they let him do because like a month bef well, two months before Dying Darko came out was the movie I knew Jake Gyllenhaal from. I didn't see it but I I was working at a video store. It was Bubble Boy, if you guys even know what that is. And I was like, They didn't
Bilge (01:05:07)
yeah. I don't
Chad Perman (01:05:09)
they didn't they didn't use the darkness in in Bubble Boy.
Bilge (01:05:12)
well when I recommended Donnie Darko to friends at the time, they're like, But that's that the movie with Bubble Boy? I'm like Yeah, he's really good.
Chad Perman (01:05:16)
Yeah, as the guy Yeah. Like that's what he was known for.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:05:19)
Yeah. Well,
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:05:21)
Chad, I'm sure you might have a thought as a therapist about this movie because I think I so from the
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:05:28)
teacher lens, I think I have seen those students. that does feel like a type of student that comes through your classroom where you're like,
Chad Perman (01:05:35)
sure.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:05:35)
This kid is either super this kid is super brilliant. They're either gonna be super successful or they're gonna end up in jail. And like I don't know which one it is. And I think
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:05:46)
The therapist character in here is interesting too, because I think that must be something that you get crossing your door in therapy too, where you're like, this kid is either like going to screw everything up for his entire life and potentially for others, or is gonna be okay. And I don't know which one it is.
Chad Perman (01:06:02)
Yeah. Well,
Bilge (01:06:03)
Mm-hmm.
Chad Perman (01:06:04)
and I haven't I haven't worked with with kids or teenagers in several years, but I definitely that was something I thought about often when I did. and not just as a therapist, but as a person, I think, you know, a a lot of kids a lot of parents are very happy when their kids are very, very smart. And
Chad Perman (01:06:24)
I've always worried about kids that are because the smarter you are, the more that you can connect things and the more you can understand certain things don't make sense that everyone else buys into. So I mean, there's just so much going on. or with like imagination, like everyone always talks about, he's so imaginative. And I like, that goes both ways. He can imagine worse or she can imagine worse things than you've ever thought of and worry about them. It's not just the good stuff.
Chad Perman (01:06:48)
yeah,
Chad Perman (01:06:48)
But yes, I do worry about worry about smart people in general, whether they're young or old. I think that it's you've
Chad Perman (01:06:55)
you've just got a lot more potential for things to go the wrong way, either externally towards the world or in t internally towards yourself and isolating yourself or hate self-hatred or any that kind of stuff. Just cause the brain's going so much all the time.
Bilge (01:07:09)
So this movie really has characters that really align with you know all three of our chosen kind of professions. Cause you're
Chad Perman (01:07:19)
Yes.
Bilge (01:07:20)
you know, you're a therapist, you're a high school teacher, and and I I'm a guy who sits in movie theaters and hallucinates.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:07:24)
Ha ha.
Chad Perman (01:07:24)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Perman (01:07:28)
But yeah, I think it's it's a fun movie to talk. I mean, we you you could do a five hundred hour podcast on this and and still not be any closer to what it means and also realizing that doesn't really matter at all. 'Cause yeah, I think I think it's it's a vibe.
Bilge (01:07:43)
it's but I think one of the reasons why it still holds up and still captures this vibe is because it's it's so not focused on entirely on the incidents of just Dar Donnie's journey. Like even this even the sparkle motion stuff, which is kinda like why is that even there? Like it's a no, I mean but like why like it I mean it's great. It's delightful, very funny.
Chad Perman (01:08:03)
We got a long ways before mentioning that, yeah. It's great. Even the choreography
Bilge (01:08:09)
it really goes down this rabbit hole of our sparkle motion, yeah, no, of course.
Chad Perman (01:08:11)
No. There's a lot of other ways to get them on the plane, than than to have them be in a dance troupe.
Bilge (01:08:18)
but you know, there's so many of these little things where it's like it just expands its universe just enough to really make it feel like a universe, you know? Even even
Chad Perman (01:08:28)
Definitely.
Bilge (01:08:28)
the even the relationship between Drew Barrymore and Noel No Noel Wiley, you know, it's kinda like,
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:08:32)
Yes.
Chad Perman (01:08:32)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:08:33)
wait, what? okay, you know,
Chad Perman (01:08:35)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:08:37)
And yeah, I'm sure there's a lot in the novel about that. Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:08:42)
Probably more than we want.
Chad Perman (01:08:44)
Yes.
Chad Perman (01:08:45)
Turns out Roberta Sparrow is Donnie's biological mother. Sorry, I had to mention her at some point.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:08:51)
Roberto Sparrow will return in Avengers Doomsday.
Bilge (01:08:53)
R yeah,
Bilge (01:08:57)
yeah, Roberta originally known as Roberta Skywalker, you know.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:09:00)
Right. There you go. There you go.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:09:03)
we didn't talk about her character at all. I don't which is maybe interesting that we never touched on her.
Chad Perman (01:09:05)
No. And the the name of his book
Chad Perman (01:09:08)
is is The Philosophy of Time Travel, which I believe was the book that she wrote in that movie. Yeah. That's
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:09:11)
Yeah, that's the bucket.
Bilge (01:09:12)
that is the name of his book?
Chad Perman (01:09:13)
at least as of this interview that he did this week, yeah.
Chad Perman (01:09:17)
Sometimes you can expand the universes and they can go well. We'll
Bilge (01:09:20)
No, look,
Bilge (01:09:21)
I was the person who never thought a Top Gun 2 would work. 'cause I didn't even like the first Top Gun and then Maverick comes out and I'm like, Holy shit, this is incredible. Yeah. Yeah. That's a big, big
Chad Perman (01:09:25)
yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. And that was Elizabeth wrote about that for us and I that was my favorite movie of that year. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:09:31)
I am I am a big big Maverick defender. Yeah.
Bilge (01:09:35)
fan. And that's
Chad Perman (01:09:37)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:09:37)
Once
Bilge (01:09:37)
that happened, I was like, All right, well, I kinda have to keep my mind open for
Chad Perman (01:09:42)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:09:42)
whatever they do next, 'cause it could work. You just never know, you know.
Chad Perman (01:09:46)
just also realized it's like eleven forty where you are. So are you okay? Did did the net
Bilge (01:09:49)
it's all right. I'm not this I'm a I'm a
Chad Perman (01:09:52)
did the Nets end up winning?
Bilge (01:09:53)
the Nets ended up losing by one point in overtime. and and
Bilge (01:09:57)
and they were in fact they were in fact ahead by one point with like point four seconds left.
Bilge (01:10:06)
game.
Bilge (01:10:07)
I'm sure I'm sure I have to go downstairs and find out if my child is
Chad Perman (01:10:12)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:10:13)
is is is like still still here. I know, I know. but but but but
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:10:15)
You need to you need to send a jet engine back in time and kill yourself to make the Nets win.
Chad Perman (01:10:19)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Perman (01:10:23)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:10:27)
yeah, no, somehow it's the nets. it's if I killed myself
Chad Perman (01:10:30)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:10:30)
they would s they they would somehow lose worse.
Bilge (01:10:32)
no, but it but that that tells
Chad Perman (01:10:33)
It'd be for love, yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:10:33)
Sure, sure.
Bilge (01:10:34)
me that tells me that there was probably some last second free throw or something, or whatever. I don't know. It's I'm sure it'll be it's why I'm refusing to finish this podcast because I don't
Chad Perman (01:10:43)
No. Okay.
Bilge (01:10:46)
want to find out what happened.
Chad Perman (01:10:49)
Well,
Chad Perman (01:10:49)
normally we do end by but in your case you've you've seen so many things. But we normally end by just talking about something that you've seen recently that you really loved. But I guess in your case
Bilge (01:10:57)
Hmm.
Chad Perman (01:10:58)
I would challenge you to have it be a non like something under the r like the way Athena was for you in, you know, the year
Bilge (01:11:04)
Hmm.
Chad Perman (01:11:05)
you saw it. Like something that people wouldn't maybe not be expecting.
Bilge (01:11:10)
well,
Bilge (01:11:10)
it's award season, it's kind of list end year list making season, so I'm watching a lot of stuff that came out of the festivals to try and see, you know, what what I
Bilge (01:11:21)
What's gonna be on my list, what I might want to vote for in various critics awards. and obviously, Once Upon a Time in Harlem is one of my favorite films of the year. It's in theaters now
Chad Perman (01:11:32)
Mm.
Bilge (01:11:32)
in New York and LA, I wanna say. I don't know if it's kind of expanded yet, but yeah, I just I I've I think it's
Chad Perman (01:11:38)
It's definitely not out here in Seattle, so
Bilge (01:11:42)
a wonderful, wonderful documentary. Originally shot in nineteen seventy two, but only recently finished. you know, there's
Bilge (01:11:51)
Ryusike Homo Hamaguchi's new film All of a Sudden, which won an award at Cannes, will be coming out soon. There's a film called La Gradiva, which was also at Cannes, which I really, really love.
Chad Perman (01:12:03)
Haven't heard of that
Bilge (01:12:04)
it's it's great. It's by a first time filmmaker. It was actually
Chad Perman (01:12:07)
Okay.
Bilge (01:12:08)
at Critics Week at Cannes, and and I believe won Critics Week at Cannes or whatever big award they give. and I I can't quite describe it, but I think I
Chad Perman (01:12:19)
What was it called?
Bilge (01:12:21)
la gradiva g R A D I V A. It's about a group of high schoolers, French high schoolers, visiting Naples and Pompeii. and it's it's great. It's really I think you would love it. you should definitely
Chad Perman (01:12:37)
Yeah, cool.
Bilge (01:12:38)
see it. but yes, so anyway, those are those are three really good
Chad Perman (01:12:42)
Okay. Anne
Chad Perman (01:12:43)
Elizabeth, did you have anything you wanted to recommend?
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:12:46)
Yeah. Well,
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:12:47)
to take us back to 1988, I recently watched the
Chad Perman (01:12:51)
Tanner.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:12:52)
The Vanishing for the first time. yes, the original
Bilge (01:12:53)
the original vanishing.
Chad Perman (01:12:54)
yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:12:57)
vanishing. It I'm the kind of person, Bilga, if you it right. I'm the kind of
Chad Perman (01:13:01)
That feels like your type of movie.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:13:04)
person that like if I'm sad, I will turn to some dark things. And somehow they make me feel better. They do make me feel better. They don't put me in a in a darker hole.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:13:14)
So I lost my dog of 16 years
Chad Perman (01:13:17)
Yes.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:13:19)
last
Chad Perman (01:13:20)
A week ago.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:13:20)
yeah, last week. And
Bilge (01:13:21)
gosh.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:13:22)
so that was really tough. And I was having a really hard time. And I was like, I gotta turn something on to like make it be better. and I convinced Chris to watch The Vanishing with me. And at the end of the movie, he was like, Elizabeth, what are we doing here? And I was like, I don't know. I think that was not really, but
Chad Perman (01:13:37)
Does he not have the same processing mode?
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:13:40)
I was like, I think that was maybe perfect. Like that was exactly what I needed.
Chad Perman (01:13:43)
Mm-hmm.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:13:43)
if you haven't seen The Vanishing, I would recommend it. If you're like it's not a horror film. It actually feels I don't know how I would describe it, but it it's very like it's very like clinical in nature. it's sort of a clinically chilling film. and it's i it's very upsetting. It is effectively very upsetting
Bilge (01:14:07)
Very upsetting.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:14:08)
and does something
Chad Perman (01:14:09)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:14:10)
with one of its characters that I don't think I've
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:14:13)
really seen that much in a film. and so I, yeah, I really, I really enjoyed that. Yeah.
Chad Perman (01:14:19)
Yeah, I didn't know you'd seen that. That's great, yeah.
Bilge (01:14:20)
I I
Bilge (01:14:21)
will say, anybody going to see The Vanishing, make sure you watch the original Vanishing. It can
Chad Perman (01:14:27)
Yes.
Bilge (01:14:28)
be confusing because the American remake was directed by the same director, and it is
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:14:32)
Right. Yeah.
Chad Perman (01:14:32)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:14:35)
horrific. It is so bad. One of the worst films ever made. It's shocking that the
Chad Perman (01:14:35)
I haven't seen I haven't seen the American one, yeah. Really?
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:14:38)
Mm.
Bilge (01:14:40)
same person I mean, it's not just bad, it's also a complete and utter betrayal of The Vanishing, the movie he made.
Chad Perman (01:14:45)
okay.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:14:45)
this is an interest
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:14:46)
this feels like in line with what we were talking about with some of the Richard Kelly Tony Tarko stuff.
Bilge (01:14:50)
W well also, Richard Kelly could
Chad Perman (01:14:51)
Yeah.
Bilge (01:14:52)
make a movie about the guy who made the vanishing. it could be like Donny Darko, him trying to stop himself from but but yeah.
Chad Perman (01:14:55)
Ha ha ha
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:14:55)
my god, yes. Totally. Totally. I also read that I
Chad Perman (01:14:58)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:15:02)
don't know if this is true, but I read that that was like Kubrick thought it was one of the scariest films he'd ever seen. I was like, that tracks, that tracks.
Bilge (01:15:07)
Mm-hmm. Yes, absolutely. Yep.
Chad Perman (01:15:10)
Yeah.
Chad Perman (01:15:11)
Yeah, 'cause yeah y I know you mentioned the shining earlier, but The Shining's like one of your all time favorite films, Elizabeth, right? Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:15:16)
Yeah, I also just
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:15:17)
we just did the shine we rewatched The Shining for the Millionth Time with my 13-year-old who had never seen it before. He loved it. He was like, That's the best
Chad Perman (01:15:25)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:15:26)
movie I've ever seen. And I said, That's the right reaction.
Chad Perman (01:15:28)
So it's really your kid. Yeah.
Bilge (01:15:30)
I I I first
Bilge (01:15:30)
saw The Shining when I was nine or ten, and
Bilge (01:15:34)
that movie is a great movie to watch when you're a kid, when you're really young, because it is
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:15:40)
Mm.
Bilge (01:15:41)
the most one of the most primal fears. I mean the whole movie's basic. I mean the movie's about a lot of things, but it's fundamentally about a father trying to kill his son and it is the most primal fear in the world, if when you're a kid, you know.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:15:49)
Yeah, yeah, it is. Well, for a while
Chad Perman (01:15:50)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Perman (01:15:53)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:15:54)
I was scared when I was like, when it was me and my husband and my son and the three of us, I was like, the shining is gonna happen to us, right? Because my husband's a writer and my
Bilge (01:16:02)
Ha ha ha.
Chad Perman (01:16:03)
Sus
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:16:04)
oldest son was like kind of like one of those weird kids that would say things sometimes where you were like, Are you okay? Like you're saying some strange things. So then I convinced
Chad Perman (01:16:12)
And then he had that little what do you call?
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:16:14)
myself at a certain point that having three kids.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:16:17)
I would never be in a horror movie. But then we watched I re watched Donnie and
Chad Perman (01:16:20)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:16:21)
Darko and I was like, Well, three kids could end up being Donnie Darko.
Bilge (01:16:24)
Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:16:25)
and my middle kid is maybe Donnie Darko. So
Chad Perman (01:16:28)
Ha ha.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:16:28)
there you go. Chad, what have you watched recently?
Chad Perman (01:16:32)
Yes.
Chad Perman (01:16:33)
well I I mean it's not exciting to say that I saw the movie everyone's talking about this weekend with my son, the the Nathan Fielder, You Can See Everything, which I would join the chorus of. I th I thought it was amazing. but the one that I watched that was in the filling in the hole and the things that have been on my criterion list forever that why haven't I seen this by this age? so I I watched Redbeard last night, the Kirosawa film, which
Chad Perman (01:17:00)
Just one of the great humanist films. I love Kirosawa in general,
Chad Perman (01:17:04)
I it's they're all good and everyone loves them. So I'm not not saying anything revelatory here, but if you have three hours and you've already seen you can see everything in theaters, then spend another three hours with Redbeard to balance it out.
Bilge (01:17:18)
Great.
Chad Perman (01:17:18)
That's
Chad Perman (01:17:18)
it. Yeah.
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:17:19)
Great. Love it.
Chad Perman (01:17:21)
All right. So thank you so much, Bilga, for joining us very close to Halloween to talk about Donnie Darko we really appreciate you being here. It's always such a joy to talk to you. I wish we were able to do it more often, but always appreciate your time. So thank you for being here.
Bilge (01:17:34)
Thank you so much.
Chad Perman (01:17:35)
And Elizabeth, I will see you next month probably. Yeah, we just gotta come up. Let's
Elizabeth Cantwell (01:17:38)
Yeah, I hope so. Let's do another movie.