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Veterans know how to lead. The lessons we learned in the military form the foundation for bigger successes in business, entrepreneurship and community.
Host John S Berry, CEO of Berry Law, served as an active-duty Infantry Officer in the U.S. Army, finishing his military career with two deployments and retiring as a Battalion Commander in the National Guard. Today, his veteran led team at Berry Law, helps their clients fight some of the most important battles of their lives. Leading successful teams in the courtroom, the boardroom, and beyond, veteran leadership drives the firm’s rapid growth and business excellence.
Whether building teams, synchronizing operations, or refining tactics, we share our experiences, good and bad, to help you survive, thrive and dominate.
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[00:00:01.12] - Christopher McKinney
A civilian reading a resume that says, I was a platoon sergeant, they have no idea what that entails. They don't know what that means, really. I mean, they may have watched We Were Soldiers, and they know what Mel Gibson did, but that's about it. So, you have to word your resume that really speaks to what you did in the Army that civilians can understand.
[00:00:23.12] - John S. Berry
Welcome to Veteran Led. I'm your host, John Berry. Today's guest is Army Veteran, Christopher McKinney, the founder of OpSynergy and program manager at Stratevia. Christopher, welcome to the show.
[00:00:38.15] - Christopher McKinney
Thank you. Thank you, John. I'm excited to be here. I love your enthusiasm. I think it's going to be hard to match.
[00:00:44.14] - John S. Berry
You've got a lot of enthusiasm, too, because you're filling two roles right now. You founded a company, and yet you're still a program manager in another company. Tell us how you do that and how that worked together to get you where you are today.
[00:00:57.02] - Christopher McKinney
I'm going to try to shorten it as much as I can. On my retirement out of the Army, during my transition, a mentor of mine said, you need to get the PMP. At the time, I said, why? I mean, I got a degree. I'm going to be retired Army. What do I need the PMP for? And he said, Get it. I said, okay. His name was First Sergeant Springer, a big mentor of mine. I got the PMP. That's the Project Management Professional certification, and the Army paid for it. And that certification helped me get the job on my transition working for the current organization that I work for. I very quickly went from project manager to program manager to a senior program manager, actually. And then I got approached by another organization, Career Academy, to teach the PMP to Veterans. I started teaching the PMP as a Veteran to Veterans. Well, long story short, what happened was, I think a lot of service members know that the military cut Army Ignited funds, the credentialing assistance, in half. And when they did that, I noticed that most organizations that said that they were Veteran friendly, maybe they are, and maybe they have the best intentions, but I didn't feel like they did a great job showing it because what they did was they just started charging all of the credentialing assistance that they could and not ensuring that the transitioning service member still had enough left over in the tank to actually apply for and take the exam.
[00:02:39.20] - Christopher McKinney
I said, well, you know what? Let me try it. That's what led us to where we are now with founding and starting OpSynergy LLC, a project management consulting and a PMP boot camp organization. What I did was I said, you know what? I want a Veteran a transitioning service member to have the same opportunity I had without having to pay any amount extra. I just started it up, and then I included the exam fee. I included all the fees that come with Project Management Institute. I included it all. That way, any Veteran that is transitioning, or not even transitioning, but wanting to get a head start, I say, if you're 10 years or less, even, get that head start, get the project management professional certification while you can, because it's never too early, and it's never too early to start getting experience leading projects, which is what we do in the military every day as leaders. We're leading projects. That's how it all started, and that's what led me to found and create OpSynergy. It's been a blast. It's been very eye-opening and learning. I've never created and started a business. A lot of learning curves.
[00:04:00.08] - Christopher McKinney
I'm still learning a lot, actually, but we're getting there. It's been a really fun time. I know it's super cliché to say this, but I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoy helping Veterans and transitioning service members to really see the potential that they have, not to get too long winded here. But I don't think the Army... They try. They try really hard. Maybe the Marine Corps and Navy, I'm sure they try just as hard. But there's so much out there that it's hard to really show everyone all of the opportunities that are in front of them. I think that the project management professional certification is one of the biggest opportunities that we can get that's just not taught.
[00:04:50.07] - John S. Berry
Well, let me take you to this because I think this is the important transition is you start OpSynergy, and yet you're still employed by Stratevia. I think this is a really important lesson, I think, for Veterans, because a lot of Veterans come out and, okay, I've got some skills. I know how to run. I need to synchronize operations. I know how to do a lot of these things. But there's still a piece that you have to learn. And what I like is you don't just jump out and say, I'm going to start this thing. You start an area where you gain more technical expertise in the civilian world before you jump out and start your own organization. Tell us a little bit about that.
[00:05:26.07] - Christopher McKinney
Yeah, I will say I could not be where I am right now without the experience that I got working for my current organization. My supervisor, my boss, Tony Lee, Mr. Tony Lee, is the absolute best mentor I could have ever, ever asked for. I think it's important to note that a lot of Veterans, and I've seen it, and where I am now, I get the opportunity to talk to a lot of Veterans. They're under the impression they could just start a business. They get a VA loan, or they try and start a business, and unfortunately, they try to do it the quick way. They just want to get out, start a business. Hey, I want to make some coffee, or I want to be into counseling or something. It fails because the business does not have the spine that it needs in order to succeed. I have that spine because I started this a year ago. Instead of just quitting my job and starting a business, I stayed where I am, so I'm dual roles, and I'm still getting that experience that I need because I'm learning every day. I'm still getting that experience that I need with my actual job while running my own business.
[00:06:40.07] - Christopher McKinney
Thankfully, I work for an organization that allows that and gives me that opportunity because they know that it's my passion, and I'm really grateful for that opportunity that they give me. So, yeah, it's the experience. It's not just saying, Hey, I'm starting a business, I quit. I also made an obligation to the company that I currently work for, and I'm going to fulfill that obligation as well. And it's a lot of work.
[00:07:06.10] - John S. Berry
I think there's an important lesson here because I was under the same impression as an employer. I hired a lot of people straight out of the military, and what was happening was They hadn't yet developed those base-level skills. They thought they wanted to do some entry-level positions with us. Then they'd learned that, Hey, I don't really like this, or, This isn't where my skills are. What I found is you can really layer in the military leadership, the management experience on top, but that base skill needs to be there. And I think for a lot of Veterans getting out, it's, Hey, figure out what you want to do. Even my 17-year-old son, he wants to start a business. I'm like, Hey, go work for somebody first, develop the basic skill, or go to school and develop the basic skill. And then that military experience, that leadership experience, you can layer it on top. But what I found is bringing people into an organization and expecting them to learn the skill or be able to do the skill just because they're experienced leaders and experienced managers, it doesn't always work that way. And that's why things like the PMP are important because they give you additional skills that help you parlay those leadership skills.
[00:08:09.00] - John S. Berry
And what I love, what you've done, Christopher, is on your LinkedIn, what is your last job description? How do you title it? And what really was it?
[00:08:20.17] - Christopher McKinney
Corporate Office Manager.
[00:08:22.15] - John S. Berry
Yes. Corporate Office Manager for the Army. But that was what? A first sergeant or what was that actual role?
[00:08:29.10] - Christopher McKinney
Well, see, it was platoon sergeant. It was platoon sergeant. But like we were talking about before the podcast, and I think what you're referring to is resume writing. It's important. A civilian reading a resume that says, I was a platoon sergeant, they have no idea what that entails. They don't know what that means, really. I mean, they may have watched We Were Soldiers, and they know what Mel Gibson did, and that's about it. You have to word your resume that really speaks to what you did in the Army that civilians can understand. And so that's where Corporate Office Manager came from.
[00:09:09.12] - John S. Berry
And so as far as working with other Veterans to help them, I guess, get away from the mill speak. People used to tell me, Stop using mill speak. Get away from the acronyms, maybe some of the cussing. But really in corporate culture, it's a little bit different. And I found, too, that one of the weaknesses in corporate culture is the lack of directness. This. You think of the military, one of our strengths is that we are very direct. And I have found that that doesn't always resonate well in corporate culture because most organizations don't have that level of excellence that we see in the military. They Most people don't want to rock the boat. There's bureaucracy. There's all these things that I think prevent, sometimes get leaders to shy away. And then when I see that happen, I see them back off and become disengaged and less motivated. So How do you fight against that? With PMP, you are managing projects, you are moving that ball forward, and you're doing it every single day. But you got to be direct with people, but not in the same knife-hand way that we were in the military.
[00:10:12.23] - John S. Berry
How do you best deal with that as a former platoon sergeant in the civilian world?
[00:10:17.01] - Christopher McKinney
On my transition from the military, I knew all of the horror stories. I had heard them all, people getting hired and then let go because they couldn't get rid of that mill speak or people being too direct I knew from the onset I had to disassociate, and I did. And unlike others, I was luckily able to, I mean, really disassociate. When I say disassociate, I talk to people now that have zero idea. When I tell them, Oh, I spent 21 and a half years in the military, they chuckle. They don't believe me. Because I really disassociated because I was nervous to take that. I've heard all the horror stories, and I was so nervous that I was going to fall into that gap. But then, I'm going on three years now and I learned kind of in the middle. And in the middle is perfect, where I know once you get that experience, you know how much of that leadership ability that you have in the Army, how much of it you can really use with civilians. Because let's be honest, sometimes you have to be direct in the corporate world, too. It's not all unicorns and rainbows and fairy dust.
[00:11:32.04] - Christopher McKinney
Sometimes you have to let people go. Sometimes you have to tell people, Listen, if you do not change A or B, you are going to be fired. Right? And so it's the ability. One thing that the military really did for me was gave me the ability to have that uncomfortable conversation with my employees when needed. Now there is times when it's not needed, and I can't be Sergeant First Class McKinney. I have to be Christopher McKinney. I went from disassociating completely to then falling back and being able to rein in some of my past military experience and know when is the best time to use it and when is not. I think on your transition, if you can find that perfect in between, that good in between, you are going to go far, man, because it has helped me tremendously.
[00:12:26.19] - John S. Berry
Yeah, absolutely. One paradox I always struggled with in the military is that you are expected to be direct, right? Give direct orders, be very direct with your expectations, task condition standards. And yet if someone wasn't performing, It was very hard to terminate them. In fact, they would usually just get transferred to another unit, and they would become someone else's problem child. And I had a sergeant major that would tell me, well, lieutenant, they had a high enough score on the ASVAB. They're physically fit. They're mentally capable enough. If they cannot do the job to standard, it's a leadership problem. That was absolutely not true. In the civilian world, it's interesting because it seems like the tendency in the corporate world is to be less direct and yet terminations, yeah, not a big deal. Hey, we're going to let them go. I find that it's so opposite. In the military, you think if we're going to be this direct, we could terminate people. But to write a referred OER or a referred NCOER, to say, hey, you're not doing a great job. It had to go through all these levels of review, and it would get kicked back.
[00:13:37.20] - John S. Berry
And so sometimes it was very difficult to put in writing that someone was not meeting the standard, whereas it's pretty common in corporate culture because you want to establish a record of performance. But that being said, I have found that as a leader, you can only lead the willing. Sometimes we thought we could lead people with a UCMJ or MJP, a way to, I think, direct them the right way, use the stick instead of the carrot. But I think I found the truth is people are either motivated or they're not. And you just got to get their motivated people on the team. So that being said, when you look for individuals who want to go into the roles as a project manager and keep that ball rolling, keep the project going, how do you advise them about keeping people motivated, keeping civilians motivated?
[00:14:29.01] - Christopher McKinney
It's honestly no different than what you just described for the military. I mean, it really is no different. There's just different ways we motivate in the corporate world, such as bonus incentives. Even Not even so much as having, Hey, this person did a good job. Send them a care package for the month. We'll send them a care package. It said, You're the employee of the month or something. But when it comes down to it, what I've noticed, and if I can speak frank, and the reason that I've done fairly well since my retirement is just like in a lot of people in the military, civilians are lazy. They're lazy. And it is hard to get them to do what you want to do if they don't want to do it. They will do the bare minimum to get by and earn their paycheck. And so if I get a new project manager in, I tell them just that, Listen, if you want to succeed in this organization, it is not hard. It really isn't. Just do 3% more than everybody else, and you will be an absolute rock star. I honestly mean that. When I got out of the Army and I started working for my organization, I was so nervous.
[00:15:47.18] - Christopher McKinney
I was like, Oh, my God, I can get fired. And not fired and sent to S3, fired, fired. I think because I was so nervous, I may be overachieved, overachieved just a little bit. But I noticed really quickly that that little bit of overachievement, it set me worlds apart from everybody else. All of my peers and any what you would call, competition that I had within the organization. And at the time, it took me probably six months to even realize that this was happening. What's great about us Veterans is if we go into the civilian world and we take just a little bit of that discipline that we have as as Veterans and military members and carry it over to the corporate world and don't get complacent, which is, Oh, I'm in the corporate world now. I'm so tired of overachieving all the time and so tired of just the grind. Just try and bring 5% of that grind with you, and you will do outstanding. That's what I tell most people. Just like in the Army, we tell people, Look, do 10% more. I tell them the same thing. A lot of it is the same, but a lot of it is different, just different type of award structures.
[00:17:05.11] - Christopher McKinney
But it's the same concept. It really, really is.
[00:17:08.11] - John S. Berry
Yeah, I think the one thing that the military does really well that prepares us for the future is you have metrics, right? If you're going to get that excellent block, it has to be qualified and quantified. Give me actual numbers. But then also there's just simple standards, like your qualification, right? Did you qualify marksman? Did you qualify expert? And then your height, weight, APFT, all these basic soldier skills, just the basic tasks, you're being scored on them. And then as you move up through the ranks, there's other things that they look at. But you're conditioned at the beginning to understand that your individual metrics matter to the organization, and they matter to your readiness to do the important things. I think that is so important. And probably the only other thing that I would say that the military did a great job about was saying, Hey, you're responsible for your professional education. You need to get into these schools. There was usually a branch manager or someone who would guide you. But when you get out, nobody's telling you what schools to go to. You were fortunate to have that first sergeant who made you get your PMP while still in service.
[00:18:15.18] - John S. Berry
But for service members getting out, looking for that mentor to help them find what is the next thing I should be doing for my career, because there is no branch manager in the civilian world, where do you suggest they go?
[00:18:28.05] - Christopher McKinney
Oh, that one's tough. I don't know. I don't know. Maybe there are... I got lucky because when I retired, I just got a very good mentor, the guy that hired me that I spoke of earlier, Mr. Tony Lee. He took a gamble with me, and he hired me, and he has been the absolute best mentor anyone could ever ask for in terms of project and program management. I'm sure there are a lot of forums out there. I Hey, reach out to me, christopher.Mckinney@opsynergy.Net. There's a lot of Veterans out there like me, like you, I'm sure, John, and all kinds of podcast. I was on another podcast called the Dog Tags to Ownership. Those guys on that podcast, they would give an arm and a leg if need be to help Veterans. There's so many Veterans out there that are ready and willing to help, all you got to do is ask. I say I don't know, but now that I talk through it, I think it just requires a little bit of research. Or maybe reach out to one of those mentors you had while you were in the Army that retired and is doing successful.
[00:19:46.18] - Christopher McKinney
Or listen to podcasts such as yours. There are so many Veterans that want to help, that have made that transition and are now successful, that genuinely want to see other Veterans be successful. I don't know if that answered your question directly, but I did my best.
[00:20:09.01] - John S. Berry
All right, well, this takes us to the after-action review. Your example of great leadership and your example of horrible leadership. Let's start with a great, and you don't have to name names.
[00:20:18.15] - Christopher McKinney
Yeah. If I had to really pinpoint it, I think I could fairly quickly. Great leadership is plain and simple. You follow someone because you want to, because you know that no matter what, they're going to be there with you. They don't tell you to do something that they would not do. I'm speaking specifically, I think I mentioned him earlier, the individual that told me to get the PMP, First Sergeant Springer, my mentor. I'm going to have to send this to him so he knows I'm giving him a shout out. That was great leadership. He was direct. He did not care what people thought about him. You knew that if he said, I need you to go dig that trench, it was for a reason. If need be, he'd be digging it with you. Horrible leadership. I think it's quite cliché, go dig that trench while I watch. I'm not a big proponent of that. I know sometimes in the Army, it's needed. We have a leadership structure for a reason. But I think we know the difference between the two. Common sense tells us. Right? After we've been with a good or a horrible leader, we know.
[00:21:28.01] - John S. Berry
Sometimes you get that lieutenant who jumps into the trench, wants to help out. Like, Lieutenant, get out of here. You're just screwing up the trench. Sometimes as leaders, we want to jump in. Sometimes that's also a bad thing if we don't have the skills or it's not within our, I think, our assigned duties. We want the leaders to get on the ground. But I've had leaders get involved, supervisors. I'm just like, okay, just get out of my way. Just stop. I know you're trying to help, but you're not. Then we've all done that because we want to help. Sometimes the best way we can help as leaders is to give someone the mission and let them execute. Now, Christopher McKinney, where can our listeners learn more about you and your company, OpSynergy?
[00:22:11.08] - Christopher McKinney
Yeah, OpSynergy. Net. It's a great start. You can find me on Facebook. I'm even on TikTok. I got with the trend. I started me at TikTok, OpSynergy. Or you can, like I said, shoot me an email, christopher.mckinney @OpSynergy.Net. I get tons of emails from Veterans, and I love getting them, and I don't mind. I do have quite a few, so if it takes me a minute to get back to you, don't worry, but I will. But so, yeah, anything OpSynergy, you'll be able to find it.
[00:22:39.05] - John S. Berry
Chris, when we talk about the bigger, better future for Veterans, obviously, starting OpSynergy is a big thing. What is next for you?
[00:22:45.12] - Christopher McKinney
Growing OpSynergy. I just started a scholarship fund for Veterans to try. Some Veterans, as you know, they use their Army Ignited credentials, and it's it, they're gone. I started a scholarship fund for Veterans, and I really want to grow OpSynergy to be a household name inside the Veteran community as an organization that genuinely cares, genuinely wants to see and help Veterans succeed.
[00:23:14.12] - John S. Berry
I want to end on this because this is so important. Being an infantry guy, I'm sure you understand this, or I should say a combat arms guy, you understand this. You're always improving your fighting position. So, what did you say? Well, you started OpSynergy. So, what's next? It's going to be grow OpSynergy, then improve OpSynergy, then scale OpSynergy. And so, the point is this, you launch it, that's the beginning. It doesn't end. You're always improving that fighting position, and you're always improving. And so, the good news and the bad news is there's no real end to it. You keep going.
[00:23:47.12] - Christopher McKinney
That's exactly right. And you know, complacency kills. Complacency kills. And so, I'm right there with you. It's terrible when you see organizations just get stagnated and they stay where they are. That will not be me. My wife, sometimes I think she gets tired. She's like, are you ever going to stop working? No, ma'am. No. No, because I want this thing to succeed. Like I said, I want it to be a household name for Veterans to know this is somewhere we can go to get the help that we need on our transition.
[00:24:19.03] - John S. Berry
Absolutely. There is no homeostasis in business or in life. You are either growing or you are dying.
[00:24:25.08] - Christopher McKinney
You are 100% correct. I learned that really quick, and I cannot agree more.
[00:24:34.22] - John S. Berry
Thank you for joining us today on Veteran Led, where we seek to help Veterans build an even bigger, better future after military service. Unfortunately for some of our Veterans, the roadblock to a better future is that they are not receiving all of the benefits that they earned. If you need help appealing a VA disability decision, contact Berry Law.