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The cost & courage of caring - stories that spark resilience.
Mark (00:00.23)
Welcome to episode 9 of the Caregivers Podcast, a show about the courage and cost of caring. Today's show was a global must-see for citizens everywhere. Nurses are caregivers who have stories that need telling, and today we welcome Darlene Jackson and Brandi Johnson, the hosts of the Shift Happens podcast from the Manitoba Nurses Union, where stories and messages come to life and steer the course of positive change in nursing.
This is a no-fluff partnership whose messages are spreading well beyond the provincial border of Manitoba. They're exposing risk, system failure, trauma, sounding alarms, and in doing so they're fueling hope.
Mark (00:43.31)
So Darlene and Brandi, what was the exact moment that you realized you couldn't stay quiet anymore and the podcast needed to be born?
Can I start that,
You go ahead.
You know, that's a great question. And what I will say, and obviously Darlene can add to this, is that I've been in this role now. I'm entering my sixth year. And probably from the first year, I felt as though nurses weren't being able to speak out as boldly as they wanted to. They weren't able to share the truths of what was happening in their day-to-day life. And so...
I think what we started to do was we called our first campaign Behind the Mask and we started to sort of pull that mask back a little, if you will. And I think with each campaign, we continued to walk a little closer to the edge. And I think in doing that, we kept shouting at various times, we need a podcast. We need to be able to say the things that, you know, sometimes nurses feel like they can't say.
Brandi (01:54.572)
So I would say that the birthplace or the time that this really began was probably five years ago, you know, when Darlene and I started working together. But in the last year and a half, we have had the talent and the skill and the fortitude, I think, to push it to the next level.
What did it feel like in that moment when you decided to go for it?
Darlene (02:22.067)
Well, I can say that I had never even listened to a podcast when Brandi mentioned it. And we talked about it for quite some time and it just, there just didn't seem to be the time to do what we needed to do to get it off the ground. And, and when, you know, one of our communications officer, China came on board, it seemed like the perfect opportunity to really move it ahead. But
So one of the reasons, one of the things I want to say is, and this is exactly why I hired this lovely woman, is the ability to take the members' voices and take nurses' voices and put them out there in such a way that you can't not listen. You can't not understand what's happening. And we actually started out as a union,
speaking out after Brandi got here. We were quite quiet before that. And I came into this role eight years ago because I felt that we really needed a voice that was out there and really talking about what was happening in healthcare because our healthcare system has been decimated by our government at that time. And, you know, as things moved along over three years, our communications officer left and
Darlene (03:42.274)
We were looking for a new one and I had been saying since I came into this role, when are we going to start talking about what nurses are feeling and what they're seeing out there? And when Brandi came in for an interview and started, her first question was, our question was, what would you do differently if you worked for &U? And she said, my first question is, why aren't we talking about what nurses are feeling and what they're seeing? in my heart,
I knew I was going to hire her because she was exactly what we needed for our union to bring that voice out.
Mark (04:16.894)
Compared to what it was like living in that silence for so long, what's it feel like now? It must be exuberant.
Darlene (04:24.494)
It feels amazing. does. It feels amazing. sometimes we have employers and sometimes, and most of the time we have government who are not happy with us, but our members are happy and nurses feel like they are been represented and someone is speaking out. And it feels amazing. And I went to Costco yesterday and met two people that said, keep doing what you're doing. We're not nurses.
but we need to know what's happening in healthcare, so keep doing what you're doing. So it's not just nurses who appreciate that we are basically opening up what's happening in healthcare and sharing it.
Mark (05:06.634)
I agree, it's not just for nurses anymore. you know, when this was all happening, was there any internal pushback or sort of reputational concerns or political legal sort of, boy, do we do this or do we maybe hold back or was the sky the limit?
Brandi (05:22.384)
Yeah, I will say that I remember the very first time that I formed a relationship with a member of ours and I put her in touch with a journalist and I promised my life that the journalist would treat her with care in telling her story anonymously. And that was the winter of 2020 and I was out at the lake and I woke up in the middle of the night and my partner
Rick said, are you okay? And I just said, I'm walking right to the line. I'm walking right to the line. And I don't want to cross it. I don't want to be disrespectful. don't want to, you know, I never want to harm anybody that I work with or even, you know, work in opposition to, but I have to be that brave that I go straight to the line. And so...
I did manage to go back to sleep and when the article did go live the next morning, it was a success and people started talking to us about, you know, they just couldn't believe that we were sharing these stories. And I think if anyone has a chance to sit down with Darlene and have a cup of coffee, she's probably one of the most sincere, honest, gritty.
nurses, humans that you'll meet, she just will roll up her sleeves and I've been places with her where she's picking someone off the street and dusting them off. You know, street people and just asking like, we get you a coffee and stuff like that. So being in her company, it felt like our union, you know, her and I coming together. I had the courage and she had the grit and I think together it just
Brandi (07:19.476)
worked and every time that we've done it, you know, we've had some campaigns that have gone around the world and people have asked us about how we came up with them. Every time in my gut, I'm just asking for guidance that we're doing the right thing. And every time thus far, touch wood, it has been so I feel very lucky to work with her.
Mark (07:44.204)
Your message is no, borders. I think they're pretty universal and that's what's so appealing. in many of your episodes, you refer to the DMs that you get from so many members and you've created that pipeline of communication and you're now extending it through the podcast. That's amazing. So what did it feel like once you hit that publish button for the first episode?
Brandi (08:24.376)
Well, neither one of us can listen to our own voices. But people, my mom is very honest. She'll message me right away and say, you guys got away on us today and you were speaking a little bit too insider baseball. We use terms. So we have lots of people that love us and lots of our members who give us.
feedback. I swear every time I go on air that I'm not going to cry and every time someone makes me cry. But it felt liberating. It really did. It felt like, and especially in the current environment in Manitoba, and Darlene is very good at speaking about this, but we had sort of found ourselves in a position with a partner in government who is looking you in the eyes and telling you they're going to do the right thing.
and smiling and nodding and turning around and doing the opposite of that. I knew. And I knew that would be the most difficult juncture in my career thus far because they're actually very well liked. And so for me to go out and try to do what I had been doing so well in a way that was
Brandi (09:34.638)
publicly shaming someone who was seemingly perfect. I had to dance very carefully so that I didn't in any way mar our reputation.
Mark (09:48.334)
It is a delicate act, isn't it? What do you think, Dar?
Darlene (09:51.686)
Well, I think that it is a delicate act. We know that our members support what we're doing. They are fed up with what's happening in health care. They are tired of the violence, of the workload, of the absolute almost uncaring from their employers that they are drowning and it feels like no one cares. I think they really...
are happy that we're out there telling their stories. And I guess that these are their stories. They tell me a story and I relate that story to someone else. And I have a little further reach than they do, which is great. And you know, I'll tell you a story. We heard from a nurse the other day who got an open hand slap across the face by a patient at work, filled out the necessary documentation.
sent it off to their manager. Four months later, they got a message from their manager saying, hey, I just saw your report. I hope you're okay. And you, you know, sort of survived that. And by the way, have you been thinking about what you could have done differently to avoid that? Classic. Classic, classic blaming. And I tell those stories all the time. They're not my stories, but they are stories of ...
Darlene (11:14.702)
people that I love and I respect and I think are doing an amazing job in the worst circumstances. And I feel like it's my obligation to tell those stories.
Mark (11:27.734)
There's no textbook of management. There's no textbook of, you know, executional advice on how to manage organizations or leadership texts that would ever prescribe that sort of an approach to dealing with people on the front lines. It just, it baffles me. So there's no suit of armor that's going to protect.
against that moment. I mean, that is just an indescribable experience to be in the caregiving capacity professionally and to have that happen to you. there's this saying that keeps bouncing back that at the same time nurses eat their young. So when you hear that, what do you actually feel and see when you hear that statement? Because there are lots of, I mean, I have a couple of thoughts about it and, you know,
just like the adventure you're on with the podcast could be viewed by others as being threatening and would be something that would be very easily eaten by others in terms of just consume it and get rid of it. But what does that mean in 2025 when you hear nurses eat their young?
Darlene (12:56.55)
Well, I'll start off by saying I really hate that phrase. I've nursed for 42 years and I've heard that phrase for 42 years. It's been out there. And I can honestly say when I was a brand new, fresh out of education nurse, there were nurses who were not all that nice to me. And it took me a while to
Darlene (13:16.056)
to sort of figure out how I was going to deal with that and what I was going to do. I talk to fourth year students all the time. So they're doing their clinical, they're out there, they see what's happening. And they sometimes talk about nurses are bitchy, nurses are grouchy. And what I say to them is, so you're a brand new nurse and you have just finished a very sort of
confined education where you're, you know, it's very controlled the number of patients you have and the care you're giving, et cetera. Now you've graduated, your first job, you're thrown off the pier, and you are now caring for eight to 10 patients on a very acute medical unit, where in the past you might have had three or possibly even four. And how do you feel? And, you know, they say, well, we feel overwhelmed. It's terrible. And I said, okay.
So now you are going to a nurse who, yep, they have experience, but they are actually looking after patients in a situation, their workload is double what they normally or what they should be working. They're scrambling to keep up. And now they have a brand new nurse who we all agree we should be lovely to, we should be doing everything we can to support them. But we have a brand new nurse who is
asking questions, who needs guidance, who needs support. And we're asking that nurse who is already burnt out and already exhausted and overworked to now turn around, smile and manage a patient or to manage what the student needs. So what we have been advocating for more and more is to actually have mentors in the facility.
and on those units so that you have a dedicated person where these young people can go, where these new nurses can go, they can be supported, they can be educated in certain things if need be, they can be brought to a place where they have their feet comfortably planted on the floor before they fly. And that's something that we understand we need because the way our healthcare system is right now, it is almost impossible to mentor and
Darlene (15:37.400)
work with the workloads we have. And when I talk to nurses and I call them senior nurses, I always say, when you can be anything at all, please be nice. We need these people. We need them. We need them to come to work with us. need them to work when we're on vacation. We need them to help us when we're in a situation where we're a patient in that hospital.
Mark (15:58.854)
Absolutely, and I mean, so much has changed, as you said, and the acuity is more intense, the degree of chronic comorbidity is so much more complex, and you've alluded to so elegantly that you don't have time to do the nursing practice that you actually were taught in school because you're so constrained at the bedside, and a lot of what became very much value-oriented as practice, you just are not able to...
yourself or you commit yourself to at the bedside anymore because it's just that, that things are too busy. But that notion of mentorship is, I mean, it permeates medical schools and residency programs. And let's face it, medical school prepares medical students to be residents. And residence is a whole new layer of training before you actually become an attending physician. But here that seems like without a mentor, that step is skipped for nurses. And as you alluded to, they're thrown in and
There's a missing link and I think your idea of having on-site mentors who are not looking after 10 patients of their own but rather dedicated to bringing the next generation, those we want to actually have around and not quit. We know what the numbers are, the staggering shortages and the predictions of shortages in the future.
there need to be checks and balances that ensure the investment in the cohort who's coming in is freshly kept. So how do you, would you think it's just a question of relocating resources? I can a nurse clinical educator become more of a mentor or are they separate entities, are they trained differently, or do you think it's just a reappropriation of nursing resources and institutions where there's just a mindset shift so the cohorts nurture?
Darlene (17:53.528)
Well, I think there has to be a mind mindset shift because I mean, I remember as a brand new grad, there was no such a thing as an orientation to being in charge. You showed up one day at work and okay, you've been here for two weeks, you're in charge today. And I did some managing in my time on units and I wouldn't let anyone be in charge unless they were orientated to it because
There's nothing worse than trying to manage doctor's rounds and everything that goes with that and not having a clue how you're going to manage it. So I think that mentorship and the clinical educators are sort of two different areas and we need both of them. We desperately need both of them. But I think what is a great business case, as an impotentist who be
opening new positions, mentorship positions, is look at our attrition rate. I was just at a workshop on Monday that looked at attrition rates, and in the first two years, the attrition rate is like 25%. And in the first five years of someone being a nurse, the attrition rate is between 30 and 50%. The cost of educating a nurse
orientating a nurse, and these are people who are leaving the profession, not just leaving the unit they're on, they're leaving the profession. The cost of educating a nurse, of hiring and orientating a nurse, I think that there's one study from the US that shows turnover of one nurse is about, if you're looking at cost, is about 65,000 US dollars for every nurse that leaves. I think it makes a great business case.
for government to be investing in mentors to keep those nurses where we need them. And I don't think they've connected the dots on that yet. I certainly have, and I know a lot of nurses have.
Mark (19:59.726)
Well, it's sort of the silos need to break down and an evaluation of the indirect costs of losses and such numbers really add up. And those are real numbers. There's time and energy that goes into training all young health care professionals, no matter where they are. So is it just the workload that's breaking these new nurses? What is it?
What's the bigger scheme that they're facing that maybe young nurses didn't face 20 years ago? What's evolving differently? Is it the risk of trauma in the workplace, the awareness of the vicarious position in terms of violence and assault? Is it the inability to these days when there's just so much more awareness of,
things like self-care or you have to be there for your partner. If you want a quality relationship, you can't be gone all the time. But no, I need to balance that. I there's a lot more collective awareness compared to 20, 30 years ago, whereas the noble healthcare provider would be doing their noble work and they were backed up at home on the home front by someone who didn't really say much, didn't complain, was supportive, didn't demand much because that position
was so important and it was sort of foundational perhaps even to the family structure. But we know these days, as you've alluded to in the podcast, people are more informed. Young people have been warned about the harms of not having some degree of work-life integration and how it can wear you down. mean, burnout seems to be everywhere, but where is the trauma?
emerging today for these young nurses and young caregivers.
Darlene (21:58.958)
Well, know, Mark, I think that you hit the nail on the head when you described the noble nurse because that's me. worked Christmas, I worked New Year's, I worked my kids' birthdays. I came in and worked overtime when they needed me. I would often get up two o'clock in the morning and go to work. If there was two or three ladies in labor and two nurses on, I would do it because I felt obligated.
So there's so many sort of points to this because it's very generational. Someone told individuals who are younger than I that you could have work life and you could have work and you could have life and it could be a balance. No one told me that. I grew up and my career has been about work and then life comes later.
In all fairness, we did it when we raised our children because we wanted our children to have better than us, right? So we've taught them that there's work-life balance, that self-care is important, that unfortunately most of us don't practice that ourselves, but we want our children to be better. So there's definitely a generational thing where, know, and kudos to these individuals. They are looking after themselves.
ensuring that they're physically and mentally well and good for them because they're not going to burn out as quickly as someone like I am. It also has to do a lot with the violence that we're seeing in healthcare. I had a reporter ask me the other day, how often does violence really happen? And, you know, my answer was every shift there is a violent incident, every shift.
And it doesn't have to be someone who is assaulted or punched. But when you're yelled at, when you're spit at, when you're threatened, that is definitely a psychological blow that you can't see. Undeniable. And we see it. So there's just so many issues in health care that these nurses are dealing with that they're just like, this is not worth it. And part of the issue is,
Darlene (24:24.512)
As a nurse, there are so many different areas where you could be employed. You don't have to be employed in a acute care facility or long-term care facility. The world is your oyster when it comes to being a nurse and where you can work. So that really adds to the issue of nurses leaving.
Brandi (24:43.088)
I have to jump in here if I may. feel like...
Mark (24:46.392)
Of course.
Brandi (24:47.458)
Thank you. I absolutely love everything that you just said, Dar. I think I'm going to add to that that I truly believe in my heart that the nurturing, tender side of society is also somewhat undervalued now. And so I think at one point you...
You know, both of you spoke about the noble nurse. You know, I don't know that we necessarily have a shared level of respect for so many different professions in our society nowadays. And, you know, you see that, I see that with my kids when, you know, young men come to the house and they still call me, you know, Mrs. or Miss Johnson.
You know, we talk about that over time with our grandparents and our parents, but you know at one point being a nurse was a very dignified, respectable profession. And I think nowadays for people to walk into a facility, they have for sure exasperated needs. You know, and we can't discount that because our lack of affordable housing or our lack of
supports and programs for people with addictions, all of that funnels into health care. And the nurse is then many times the first point of contact, the person that receives all of the frustration with little respect.
Mark (26:35.160)
Yet a lot are probably showing up in those situations with a noble heart, trying to do their best. Yet there's the trauma situation that arises, psychological trauma that Darlene referred to, and incidents happen even if they're not floridly egregious, but it's just that awareness of the devaluation of the encounter in the moment with the patient in need. But that calls on leadership, and I think it really
The leadership from champions such as yourselves and the Manitoba Nurses Union speak for themselves, but we all call on leadership. We're all asked to be leaders. In fact, very early on in our careers as healthcare providers, be it physicians, nurses, I'm social workers, physiotherapists, there's an understanding that you will assume some leadership, but you also need to, at the institutional level,
know, count on some leadership too, and that somebody has your back. So, when leadership says we care, yet four months later after a physical altercation, you get essentially a response that really is trying to trigger some level of cognitive dissonance, like, did that really happen, or was it kind of you that put yourself in harm's way? Like, what are we dealing with here? Like, this is...
I mean, it's gaslighting, it's all of those sort of dark triad characteristics that somehow are fair game in managing victims of trauma. So I'd love to hear what your thoughts are about that and from experiences. I mean, people need to be aware that, you know, they're worried about the healthcare system and the individuals on the front lines and everything that's happening. Yet those are sort of the...
practices that they're facing in return for taking the risks that they do and it's unsustainable really.
Brandi (28:32.704)
It is. And I think it's actually coming to a big implosion, if you will. We talk a lot about culture at the Manitoba Nurses Union, and we talk a lot about showing up standing in our truth. We talk a lot about necessary apologies. So we are currently in a nationwide nursing shortage. Is that anyone's fault?
Well, maybe we didn't predict we'd be here quite as accurately as we could have. But the truth of the matter is the people who keep showing up day in, day out in these conditions, they deserve to be treated with compassion and with some flexibility. And we're just not getting that. But I also feel that we talked about sort of the watering down of the noble nurse. I think
I think the role of a politician is also changing in society. I think what we're expecting from leaders, it's just not adding up these days.
Darlene (29:52.558)
And I can say that, I mean, our government was elected, health care was the number one election issue. And one of the promises made was they were going to change the culture in health care. It's been just over two years. We've really not seen the culture changed. And I'm not sure that they understand the culture. When I talk about culture and health care, what I'm talking about. But that
comment that came four months after the open hand slap, that's culture. To me, that is a culture of healthcare where you can say you care, but clearly you don't. Because four months later, you're following up with someone who was probably traumatized by an unexpected slap. It's just...
It's the violence that happens, violence that's reported and reported and reported. And we have to file a grievance, go to a massive arbitration to get an employer to actually start to make their facility safe enough for staff and for patients and for families. And that's culture. The culture is actually very toxic.
It's about the budget, it's about dollars and cents. It has very, very little to do with patient care anymore, especially good, safe, quality patient care. And you made a comment earlier about nurses, you go to work and you do the basics, right? You give your meds, you do your treatments, you do vital signs and you document and that's what you have to do.
legally and under the regulators, that's what you have to do to be a nurse. One really interesting study that I looked at was from the UK and it looked at what nurses think are important at work and that was exactly those issues. But what patients thought was important was not those issues at all. It was having someone who could come in and talk to them, could give them some advice.
Darlene (32:08.760)
could listen to their issues, could understand when you're discharged, you're going home to a home with 15 steps and you can't do steps. So how are we going to get on top of that? And nurses, the moral distress they feel from not being able to be that person to their patient is huge. It's causing probably more burnout and more nurses to leave this system than anything else because I know how I was educated. I know that my education
showed me that holistic care is the important care for patients. They need that. They need a connection. They need someone they can trust. And we're just not able to do that anymore. is, you know, basically patients have become widgets and nurses are doing tasks and that's it. And that is so, so disheartening for someone who knows we can do better and should do better.
Mark (32:55.760)
the whole value-based proposition of the encounter is being lost. And I mean, that's certainly been the story down in the States. we had the opportunity to speak with Dr. Todd Otten about the situation down there. that was, and you know, it's echoed by physicians and nurses. And you know, what I'm hearing is that same moral distress. And you know, in life, moral distress can be a little learning moment. But when it
adds up shift after shift, and not just one isolated moment, but continuous moments across patients, across shifts, you can see where distress becomes ingrained injury. And you reach that breaking point, yet you hear, care. So, you know, one question that I've thought about a lot, you know, I consider myself an optimist, but what school of management or what school of leadership teaches what you face in those situations?
the four-month delays, the gaslighting of the personnel, the cognitive dissonance, like all of those. Like, is that actually a formula to manage a healthcare system or manage an institution that's actually taught in some book that we don't know about? like, if that were a public corporation, it would go under and shareholders would be fuming.
Mark (34:26.752)
Why are we not seeing that? But the hope here is that actually some of the messaging from Shift happens is actually turning that table. Because you can't do that and then offer a slab of cake once a year and say, a lot for what you're doing.
Brandi (34:41.352)
Yeah, that's how our Save the Cake campaign was birthed. And that was actually one that when we spoke about earlier, we heard messages from people in Great Britain and the Philippines and South America. you know, Darlene was at a Global Nurses United meeting recently, whereby our latest campaign, Same Shift Different Day, was...
was shared and people from around the globe really resonated with that. But that, we took a full page ad out in the newspaper, I think in 2021, for National Nursing Week to save the cake. Instead this year, we'd rather a little respect. And you would think that those bold messages would shake someone enough to want to pick up the phone and call and say,
Wow, that's pretty damning. You're obviously very upset about something. Can we sit down and talk? And that's the piece to me that I just don't get because we're teaching our children today to, you know, we encourage difficult conversations. You know, that whole concept of being uncomfortable is sometimes a very good thing because we get to the bottom of what's really bothering us.
And yet, you know, here we are on Shift Happens talking about some very brutal, very unbelievable things. I often get emails from members of the public to say, did that really happen? I'm sick. And yet we don't have people, leaders, if you will, reaching out to say, you know, I drove by one of your billboards.
Brandi (36:42.074)
And if every single day it's the same shit different day at work, that's a huge problem. We got to get people in the same room together that care and that want to change this, or we're never going to be able to keep nurses no matter what we do.
Mark (37:01.848)
Darlene, you used the word and you've echoed it, Brandi, institutional betrayal. What does that look and feel like, walking down the corridor on a ward? So that people really, there are listeners everywhere and, you know, we've been blessed so far that our listenership's growing and it's not, there's so many ears that are open and that need to understand this, but what is that?
moment where you feel betrayed, like what's the experience like?
Darlene (37:41.066)
Well, I would think for the nurse who was slapped and then four months later, the manager reached out and said, hey, hear you got slapped. Are you doing OK? To me, that's betrayal. And I had never actually heard the term institutional betrayal and institutional courage. I'd never heard those words. But as I was like,
reading some research on it and speaking to a researcher about it, she said, what does institutional courage, what does that look like to you? And I said, I don't know because I don't believe I've ever seen it. I've seen a lot of institutional betrayal in my career and I think nurses see that all the time. But it's very difficult to say when I've actually seen institutional courage. that's where,
an employer, a manager, or a team of managers makes a decision that they are going to do the right thing and damn the torpedoes. Like, it's going to happen, we're going to do this. Well, I can say that I've seen institutional courage, but it wasn't where I worked. We toured the UK one year on looking at nurse-patient ratios, and there was a facility in England that they
Darlene (39:02.958)
they just stopped using private-for-profit agency nurses. They just stopped. And because they found there was no continuity of care, the nursing staff that they employed felt really devalued because, of course, private-for-profit agency nurses are paid more and their travel's paid and there's all these perks that go with that type of work. And they just...
you know, had a meeting and said, okay, on Monday, we're not using agency nurses anymore. And I said, like, how did you do that? And she said the first few weeks were terribly hard, but they started seeing an influx of nurses coming to work there, knowing that they were going to have continuity of care and that this was an employer who really cared about patient care. That to me is institutional courage, just doing the right thing.
knowing that it's going to be tough. They brought their staff in and talked to the staff about it, but that's institutional courage to me.
Mark (39:56.542)
trying to understand the management formula. So a slap takes four months. What about a kick or a punch? Does that like come in around two months or no or like?
Brandi (40:27.278)
I feel like this is the perfect opportunity to talk about one of our members who was assaulted going into work. And yeah, she fought back and she actually, I think she broke the perpetrator's nose. Is that right, Dar?
Mark (40:33.272)
hear about it.
Darlene (40:35.266)
Yeah, she was using her swipe card to get into the staff entrance. And actually there was two perpetrators that came upon her and I think they were trying to steal her backpack. And she managed to get a swing in with her backpack and broke one of their noses and then had her head repeatedly smacked against a cement brick wall. She ended up quite concussed. And when she got...
it finally caught the security guards attention. He was inside the building with his back to her on his phone and didn't notice the assault. When she finally got his attention and got inside the building, she went to emergency and the fellow with the broken nose was actually getting medical care. And he later filed charges of assault against her and the Crown picked those charges up and two years later she ended up in court.
on an assault charge against this fellow who actually assaulted her after the assault. And luckily for her, and luckily, you know, common sense prevailed, and the judge said it was the silliest thing he'd ever heard and threw it out of court. But for two years after that assault, she knew she was going to have to go to court because she was being charged with assault by a perpetrator who had repeatedly hit her head against a wall.
and she hadn't returned yet to work, she had had such a bad concussion. So that story to me is, and the manager did reach out, but I think it was about two years later.
Brandi (42:15.548)
Yeah. So that's where I was going to go with that was we gray listed one of our facilities this summer and essentially
Mark (42:22.254)
What does
Darlene (42:24.750)
of course. Dar, you want to probably jump in here?
Brandi (42:26.542)
Okay, so gray listing is a union activity. And basically what we say is this is like one of our facilities where there's been the highest amount of violence. We actually had five sexual assaults in and around that building. And we had a nurse sexually assaulted in the tunnels under the building when she was leaving work. we had, I mean, we filed grievances.
We've done everything we can to try and get that employer to see the sense of keeping everyone safe. so it's a union activity where we come out publicly and say, this is not an employer who keeps their staff or their patients or their visitors or anyone in that facility safe. So if you are looking for a job at this facility,
we recommend that you don't take a job there until this employer basically cleans their act up. And, you know, we went out to the educational institutions and said, hey, nurses at this facility have voted 97 % to gray list. It is not a safe facility. We think you need to look at whether it's safe for your students to be in. And,
Mark (43:47.522)
That must trigger change.
Brandi (43:51.522)
Well, that was in August, and you would think, and here we are in mid-November, and we are just starting to see some movement towards change. This has been...
Mark (44:03.954)
Like, absolutely unbelievable. What are the changes that we're talking about here? Are they changes that make you sort of go, phew, okay, we're making some progress here, or is it the faintest of demonstrations of change?
Darlene (44:20.910)
With gray listing, we provide a list of recommendations that we believe need to be met in order for gray lifting to be listed. one of those recommendations is this is a huge facility that at one time had 90 different ways to get into the building. During COVID, they shut right down to very, very limited entrances. After COVID, it kind of opened up again. So one of our
One of our recommendations is that there is very limited access to the building and that there has to be monitoring. We need to know, like the employer needs to know who's in that building and what they're there for. The fellow that sexually assaulted the nurse came into the building to get a Tim Horton's coffee.
Darlene (45:14.124)
and then ended up getting down into the tunnels. And we have no idea how long he was in the tunnels. So it's very difficult to know who's in that building and why they're there. I have nurses who swear up and down there that people actually live in the tunnels. They're warm, they're safe, you know, and exactly. So one of our recommendations is that there are limited access to the building and that
way.
Darlene (45:41.514)
it is monitored and there's weapon scanners because you would not believe the number of weapons that the nurses in emergency find on individuals when they get there. We recommend that the tunnels are swipe card only, that you can only get into the tunnel with a swipe card. If it's not safe for staff, they certainly are not safe for visitors or anyone else who may be using them. One of our other recommendations is that
After this incident, it happened at quarter to eight in the evening. Night shift, had no idea that this sexual assault had happened in the building and no one knew where this perpetrator was, whether they had left the building or whether they were still in the building.
Mark (46:31.970)
There's not a code for that, right, that's announced on the overhead?
Darlene (46:34.934)
There's not. And 13 hours later, a memo came out to staff saying, hey, this happened. There was inappropriate touching and groping, which nurses were absolutely appalled that a sexual assault would be downplayed in that manner. But there was no warning to anyone in the building. And nurses were so upset because they said, we use the tunnels at night.
to go between buildings if we wanted Tim Horton's coffee. No one told us it wasn't safe to use the tunnels until 13 hours later. So we've said, look, you have to have an early warning system. And they're saying, well, we don't want to scare the public. And I said, you've had a sexual assault in your tunnels. You should be scaring the public. They should know not to go down
Mark (47:15.266)
Sounds to me like doing nothing about it is scarier than the actual act itself. Come on.
Darlene (47:20.354)
Absolutely, absolutely. So we're waiting for them to address these recommendations and it's been what four months?
Mark (47:29.358)
How busy, what kind of busyness takes precedent over this when there's direct harm risk to the people you count on to look after patients?
Darlene (47:37.766)
Exactly.
I would this should be the number one issue. The number one issue they're dealing with should be this issue.
Brandi (47:45.518)
I will say though that the nurse that was assaulted going into and charged, the nurse, right, that we referenced just earlier, two years later, management reached out to ask if everything was okay with her, if she was doing just fine now, once we gray listed the facility.
Darlene (48:11.158)
No one had reached out previously until they were gray listed and then the manager reached out to ask her how she was doing.
Mark (48:18.918)
So it's not just the spirit of nurses that are broken, it's their bodies that are broken. It's mind-body that's broken. Wow. Again, don't know how a business model like that in the world would survive. Doesn't sound like customer service. Department is really well-trained. So I've heard this repeatedly.
I've seen it in different contexts, but you mentioned that nurse who got assaulted who had the concussions was in some...
beyond belief circumstance that the judge threw out. Did she press charges in return? And did anybody have her back to press charges? And why don't nurses press charges when they get assaulted? Is there like some taboo that you just don't do that because you just sort of suck it up? Because my daughter, I would hire her a lawyer.
Darlene (49:33.200)
What happens is that often a nurse is discouraged from pressing charges, either by sometimes the employer or the manager, on occasion the police, because if the patient is under the influence of some type of chemical, they probably won't get anything but a slap on the wrist.
Darlene (49:49.142)
If it's someone with dementia or mental health issues, well, they couldn't control themselves. And often nurses are basically told, they're just going to get a slap on the wrist too. It's a lot of work to do this and they're just going to get a slap on the wrist. So nurses are often discouraged from pressing charges.
Mark (50:11.022)
I mean, I guess in a certain moment when you're in proximity, let's say you're caring for a patient with dementia who has, you know, frontal release signs or, you know, I cannot control aggressiveness. Like there are skill sets that you can learn in how to position yourself, et cetera, but that's not, that can be practically taught. And I get that, but we're talking about more significant aggressions here. And I mean, it's...
It's just not okay. And as you've alluded to, there are fathers, mothers, partners, sons and daughters who
love people who are nurses and it's not just us who need to hear this, they need to hear that and I hope they're listening.
Darlene (51:13.292)
And I think that's important because we do have family members of nurses who send us direct messages that say, I am so worried about my daughter working in that facility, or I am so worried about my daughter walking to the parkade at night. And we actually had a dad who would drive across the city to drive his daughter from the door into the parkade where her vehicle was at 1130 at night.
Darlene (51:31.336)
And these are people that are very concerned about how the system is treating their loved ones that are working in the system.
Mark (51:41.282)
Well, I know for a fact in the States there are some major trauma centers that are located in very dangerous parts of major cities, but there are security guards who walk their employees to their car back and forth, and there's a security presence for the employees of those institutions. Maybe it's time for a wake-up call.
Darlene (52:03.226)
Well, one of our major facilities that has experienced a lot of violence does have a program where you can get back and forth to your vehicle. However, a lot of times nurses will finish a 12-hour shift that's been extended, been mandated into a 16-hour shift, and then ask for an escort to their vehicle. And it's a 45-minute hour-long wait to get a ride to your vehicle.
they're asked to sign a waiver that says, you know, if anything happens, you know, in this vehicle where you there's an assault or anything that happens, you know, we're not responsible. So I said, it's rather than a safe ride, it almost sounds like take your life in your hands ride because they don't guarantee safety with a ride to your vehicle. It's sort of, you know, sign this release if anything happens, we're not responsible. So,
I'm not sure exactly how effective that program is.
Mark (53:09.450)
So I have a question I'd like you each to answer. And Brandi brought up sleep quality a little bit earlier. But we'll start with Tarleen. What keeps you up at night? Is it the acts of trauma or the indifference?
Darlene (53:29.390)
I think for me, well, the acts of trauma, but for me, the indifference, the deflecting, the blaming nurses, that's what keeps me up at night. The absolutely undervaluing of what nurses do and what they bring to the table. And I think that is the worst thing for me is it breaks my heart to see nurses that are not valued. These are highly skilled.
educated professionals who are not been valued and that, you know, I make no wonder that we're in a nursing shortage and it doesn't look like it's getting any better. If we don't change that very quickly, we're going to remain in a very big nursing shortage, I think.
Mark (54:21.018)
And that shortage knows no boundaries. It's not just a Canadian phenomenon. And I'm sure there are variations everywhere. This is not Manitoba-centric. It's not Canada-centric. It's probably borderless.
Darlene (54:33.210)
It's definitely global, definitely global.
Mark (54:36.198)
Randy, what are your thoughts? What keeps you up at night?
Brandi (54:39.852)
Well, I think we were very much connected the moment that you said you would like to think of yourself as an optimist. If you were to interview people that know and love me, they would probably tell you that the time that I've spent doing this particular job has changed me. I know that for a fact.
I don't think that you can do this kind of work without having some kind of a tough exterior. And I think in the five plus years that I've been here, it gets a little tougher all the time. And so when I wake in the night, I feel very much disheartened for our future generations that we're living in a time where people are treated so poorly.
where healthcare and maybe some of the other values that I truly align with as a Canadian are being eroded. I have always believed that some of the most beautiful parts of my life have come from being a girl who was born and raised on the prairies. And I've spent more time in this role with political
and very high level leaders than I ever have in my life. And I find some of that to be very discouraging because it all flows into the disrespect and the danger that our members are facing daily. And I just feel like every day I've got to get up and try harder and do more.
And we've managed to do that so far, but I just wonder at what price.
Mark (56:41.654)
Well, hopefully the return on the cost would be changed. So there's got to be a difference between telling these stories just for catharsis and letting go of the inner turmoil and telling them to be an agent of change and an agent of hope for your members and I'd say for Canadians and citizens, citizens of this world. We need some hope. We need to see that things are changing and, you know, not going one up and having
one up, throw the ball back down one level further and just sort of have this never-ending sort of loop of asking for help and it being batted back down when you're looking for institutional or leadership courage. So what...
What real change have you started to witness? mean, you're into your second season, your messages have been powerful. I've listened to all of your episodes and they're credible, they're raw, they're sincere, they come from the heart, but they are...
You know, how would I, what acronym can I come up with? You know, the shift happens, but you don't want the bull shift happening either. So how are we going to be able to, from your community extended out to citizens, caregivers everywhere, patients everywhere, how are we going to support change? And your voice is so important in advancing that.
How are you gonna do it?
Brandi (58:21.986)
I feel very confident that despite the difficulty of the task that we have both been called to do at this time in our lives, I know that we're doing really good work and I thank you very much for your kind words. I think each time we do something that resonates in another heart or that brings someone hope, I think that we link arms and we use that line a lot.
We ask our members to hold each other up when times are really tough. And when we do a campaign, for example, one of our lawn sign campaigns, you know, we have members of the public from 10 years old. We have a beautiful young soul named Ruby who is going to be appearing on our billboards. But we had an 80-year-old couple who pulled up to Union Center, filled their trunk with lawn signs, and went out.
to fight the good fight alongside us. So, I know it's taxing and it's tough and there are days when I'm certainly not my best self, but I believe that the people that are joining us on this crusade to, and not in any way to sound, you know, boastful or anything when I call it a crusade, I just feel like it's really a mission that we're on and,
I think the more people that we can get together on Team Good, I think eventually the tides will change.
Mark (01:00:20.194)
Darlene, what are the big changes you've witnessed so far? mean, you've got an amazing lens of different generations of nursing practice, nursing teaching, nursing awareness, all of these sort of wrapped together in a lens that allows you to now look at this new and maximizing way of communicating. What are you witnessing as...
Mark (01:00:29.752)
big changes that are starting to sort of gather some steam here.
Darlene (01:00:41.226)
Well, think one of the best things I've been witnessing is nurses are speaking out. And if they have to speak out through us, that's fine. They need their stories told. We know that there's a lot of retaliation in health care when a nurse speaks out. But we set out to tell their stories.
Tell us your story and I'll tell it for you because I didn't want and Brandi didn't want anyone getting into trouble, but we wanted those stories to come out and we wanted the nurses to feel like somebody cared about those stories. So, but now we're seeing more and more nurses are speaking out on their own. They don't necessarily have to wait for us to do it. I'm actually seeing pride in nurses that
and hope in nurses. this has been a long road for me, it's been eight years. I'm not done doing what I need to do yet. I still feel like I've got work ahead of me. When I came into this role, I came into it because I wanted to make some changes and I wanted to see change in our healthcare system. But I feel like nurses are finally starting to feel like someone values them. And that's...
Brandi and I, I value them, I value their opinion. I think that they are amazing in what they do. And I want them to feel amazing and to feel like proud of their profession again, because I think we've really lost that over probably the last 10 or 12 years. It's time to get it back and I can see that tide sort of turning and that makes me so, so grateful.
Mark (01:02:22.040)
Well, I'll be so bold as to speak for my listeners, but I agree with you and support you entirely on that. If you both had the opportunity to sit a health system leader down and make them listen to one episode of the podcast, which episode would you pick?
Darlene (01:02:48.376)
I would probably ask them to listen to the episode on institutional betrayal and institutional courage because I would really hope that would be a learning experience for them in what to do and what not to do.
Mark (01:03:00.670)
I think they're well informed. a couple of times now I've followed some comments by lobbyists for family caregivers in Ottawa who are speaking on behalf of the family caregiving alliances and representatives have no idea what's happening in their community with respect to the impact of family caregiving.
And they need to be taught this information and they're sort of saying, really? That's what's going on. Like, there's a big disconnect. And do you feel that it's just a question of lack of information or is there more to the story? Like, do people know it's happening but it's just inertia? Is there a lack of will or is it just not assigned importance on the human schema anymore?
Darlene (01:03.407)
sure it's a lack of will. I attended this workshop on retention of nurses on Monday, and one of the topics that came up was we pull a nurse off the floor and put them into a leadership role, a manager role, a director role, with absolutely no support, no education. Leadership is not, for many people, leadership needs to be supported, and you need to be able to develop those skills.
And we don't always give them a chance to do that. I also hear from nurses all the time who tell me, my manager wants to do better. They want to do the right thing. They know what we're going through, but it gets to the next level and the next level after that, and it's totally dismissed. So I almost feel as if the higher you go, the more you move away from that front line and from the bedside.
Darlene (01:04:51.480)
the less understanding you have of what's really happening. And I feel it when you talk about family caregivers because, you know, there are so many individuals out there. Our home care system is in turmoil right now, and there are so many families that have been fully responsible for caregiving for a loved one. And it is absolutely exhausting to have your life and then to be supporting someone else.
It's exhausting. So I truly don't think that the leaders understand what's going on there. I don't think they understand what patients are going through, what nurses are going through, and I'm not sure that they care to understand.
Mark (01:05:50.040)
You mentioned a really important point is that you sort of graduate to these next levels of leadership because a position needs to be filled. leadership requires training, it requires perspective. There's a pedagogical curriculum. There's stuff you need to learn to be a good leader. Just like when you graduate from medical school, you're not just assumed to be a teacher and you're not just assumed to be a leader, yet you carry those cloaks with you.
And there is a high expectation, but all of this requires training. And you don't need to look beyond the tip of your nose if you see everything that's available on social media, talking about interpersonal relationships, leaderships, leaderships within your own relationship with yourself, your relationships with your partners, the workspace. I mean, there's so much that needs to be understood for it to function effectively, but that's all overlooked because a position needs to be felt and
you're suddenly in charge over all these people, you don't know how best to communicate with them or the maybe two or three styles that are necessary or four or five, and you don't know how to adapt to their needs. Like there's just so much complexity that doesn't come with these just, as you point out, just making your way up the ladder, but there's a lot to learn to be good. There's a lot of work involved to be good.
Darlene (01:06:55.938)
Well, and I love that because you can be a leader, but not a good leader. one thing that we identified on Monday was how important it is to have nurses in those leadership roles. If you're leading nurses, you need to be a nurse to understand what you're doing. But, you know, the old saying, fake it till you make it doesn't work anymore because that's not how we get good leaders.
I sat in on a job interview years ago for a new leader and we had a physician sitting in and I remember our director saying, we should hire this person because they'll be a good manager. And I remember the physician saying, we don't need a good manager. We need a leader, someone with insight, with vision that's going to take this unit and move it to the next level and lead the individuals who so badly want to be led.
And I couldn't agree more. We need leaders.
Mark (01:07:56.882)
Get leaders you need to hire slow.
Darlene (01:08.068)
Exactly.
Mark (01:08.086)
What are your thoughts Brandi? What episode would you pick?
Brandi (01:08.778)
You know, it's funny because I was oscillating between a lived experience with a nurse because I love those ones and institutional courage or institutional betrayal. And I think either would be applicable. I am going to respectfully disagree with my partner in crime. Darlene, I'm going to say that I think they know what's happening. I really do. think
at all levels, they know what's happening. But I believe in order to truly change what's going on, we need probably the most skilled leader and not the most skilled politician or manager to your point. Dar, I just really believe that we need someone that has the capacity for humility and grace and
and grit. We talked about that at the beginning of this pod. But we need someone who's willing to roll up their sleeves and to admit that they don't know everything and that the front line knows a lot about what's happening on the front line and be willing to listen.
Mark (01:09.588)
It seems like if we were to pick one direction that would shape healthcare from now moving ahead five years, listening and leadership would probably be...
Mark (01:09.954)
the traits that caregiving leaders would best adopt moving forward. Agreed.
Brandi (01:10.084)
Agreed.
Darlene (01:10.194)
I totally agree and I'd like to change my answer to Brandi's answer.
Mark (01:10.370)
Yes sir.
Mark (01:10.406)
Well, on our game show, you're actually allowed doing that. It's one of the rules, so we're in. Okay. Excellent. Well, actually, I think, you know, the beautiful truth is that it's a synergy of both those answers. And the truth is contained by listening to both those episodes, for sure.
Mark (01:10.666)
If you think back at either of you to...
the hardest shifts you've had to endure. What's been your mindset that's kept you going and kept you standing and all of this?
Darlene (01:10.824)
Well I came into this role eight years ago and I tell you I had no idea what I was in for. You know, we had a pandemic, we had lots of labour upset with legislation in this province. I just, you know, and my mantra from the first day I came into the office was, it's not always going to be this busy, it's going to get better. And I'm still waiting for that day eight years later. I still say it.
but I'm still waiting for that day because it just seems like every battle we fight that you think, okay, that one's done, we're gonna have a bit of downtime. just, we never get downtime. It's just continuous. And so I think of those nurses out there who are day in and day out going to work and doing the best they can to provide that safe quality patient care.
I just keep thinking that, you know, what several have said to me was, I just need to see a light at the end of the tunnel to know that things are going to get better, that I'm not always going to have to work in these circumstances. And that's really been what pushes me to continue is that I want to be the one that provides a light at the end of that tunnel.
Brandi (01:12:28.094)
I was really good, Dar. I think for me, I truly believe that whenever my last day on this earth comes up, I just really want to look back on my life and I want to think that I was a part of the good fight. And I know that no matter how difficult the days are and how seemingly small the gains are,
I know that we're moving in the right direction.
Mark (01:12.364)
I think.
Mark (01:12.428)
All of us sort of question whether or not or what it truly means to be happy, but what I'm hearing from you is not just happy, but fulfilled. And more and more, I've heard speakers and others talk about the fulfillment that comes with happiness that really is the icing on the cake. If you both could speak directly to a nurse who's barely hanging on,
tonight listening or maybe a caregiver at home. Because I think the wealth of your knowledge and experience actually translates to caregivers. No matter what brand they are, professional, non-professional, there's something about caring and there's something about giving on oneself when we do care. What would you say to those who are barely hanging on?
Darlene (01:13.394)
You want to start, Brandi?
Brandi (01:13.626)
I keep thinking back to the first time or many times that you or I have responded through our social media channels to identify ourselves and say, it's Brandi here and I'm really sorry that you're going through what you're going through. you know, we're here, I'm here. I truly believe that
There are many resources available for people who need them. And I think if you can just speak up, someone I hope, I trust, will hear that call for help and take some action. Just don't give up.
Darlene (01:14.364)
And I'm a firm believer in
Come in, sit down, let me get you a cup of coffee, tell me about it. And we had this great oncologist in the city. And when he talked about communication, he always talked about leaning in. And I absolutely love that phrase because that's what I want to do. I want to lean in. I want you to tell me everything. I want to be able to say, I wish I could fix it for you.
I probably can't, but I want to hear your story. I want to hear what you need to say. I want to hear what you have to say. And can I carry some of that for you? Because I think for most individuals, they just need to unload that. They just need to be able to say, this is what I'm feeling. And no judgment, no guilt.
But I think one of the most important things is just being able to sit down and lean in and just soak up what they have to say. And can I carry that forward? Is there something that I could say that would make an impact here? So for me, it's all about just being there for that person.
Mark (01:15.174)
I couldn't agree more. Brandi and Darlene, I just wanted to thank you for being here today, and I wanted to thank you for doing what you do. I think your message is for the nation, and it needs to be heard, and I hope you realize that you will be part of the Caregivers Podcast family, and we hope to hear you.
Mark (01:15.538)
and your stories and your progress at a future get-together. But we want to thank you for taking the time to be with us and to educate me, to educate our listeners, and to show them a path that we just need to have the courage to walk together.
Brandi (01:16.274)
Thank you so much for having us.
Darlene (01:16.386)
Thank you so much. Sometimes it takes questions like that to sort of refocus on what's really important. So thank you for those questions. It's sort of centered me again.
Mark (01:16.594)
That wraps up our episode this week, We'll see you back sooner than later. Thanks for being here. Thanks for subscribing. And thanks to our wonderful guests and the message they have to share with Canadians and citizens of the rest of the world. Before we wrap up, I wanted to remind you of something important. The conversations you hear on this podcast are here to inform, to support,
to spark reflection. We're not a substitute for professional medical advice, care, therapy, or crisis services. Listening to this podcast does not create a doctor-patient or caregiver-client relationship between us. If you're facing a medical concern, health challenge, a mental health challenge, or a caregiving situation that needs guidance, I encourage you to reach out to a qualified professional who knows your story. If you're ever in crisis, please don't wait. Call your local emergency number or recognize Crisis Hotline right away.
Mark (01:17.476)
You deserve real-time help and support. The views you hear on this show, whether from me or my guests, are our own. They don't necessarily reflect any organizations we work with, are part of, or have worked with or been part of in the past. This podcast is an independent production. It's not tied to any hospital, university, or healthcare system. Thank you for being here, for listening, and most of all, for taking the time to care for yourself while you continue to care for others. I look forward to hearing from you.