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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00]
[00:00:54] Sonia: Welcome to Sisters in Sobriety. Today we are thrilled to have a very special [00:01:00] guest with us, Derek Santiago, also known as the Mocktail Whiz. Derek is a pioneer in the world of non alcoholic beverages and he brings such a creativity and passion to the art of mocktail making.
[00:01:13] Kathleen: With his extensive knowledge and innovative approach, Derek has inspired many to explore the delicious and diverse possibilities of alcohol free cocktails. His latest creation, the Make It a Mocktail Recipe Deck, showcases his dedication to the craft and his desire to share it with the world. We are so excited to dive into his journey, learn more about his new recipe deck, and explore the fascinating world of mocktails.
[00:01:39] Kathleen: Welcome, Derek!
[00:01:41] Derek: Yay, thank you. Thank you for having me.
[00:01:43] Kathleen: you're welcome. I'm excited to have you here. So, um, can you tell us a little bit about your journey to being alcohol free?
[00:01:50] Derek: Yeah, for sure. So, I grew up in the Philippines, born and raised there, and in 2013 I was given the opportunity to move to the U. S. [00:02:00] for work. It was the same company that I was working for in the Philippines. And, in terms of alcohol, it wasn't really a big part of my life growing up. Um, there was no alcohol in our house.
[00:02:11] Derek: My mom didn't really drink. And my dad worked abroad for most of my life. And so he worked at, he worked in Saudi Arabia. And he would only come home every Saturday. two years for about a month. And that's when I would see some drinking at home. Um, because you know, he comes home, all of his friends will be visiting our house.
[00:02:32] Derek: And I just remember my mom's rule is no drinking inside the house. So if you guys want to do it, do it outside. So they would literally be in our front yard, um, doing the drinking there. But it wasn't really a big thing. You know, that happened maybe a month. every two years. Uh, my uncle's drank, but it wasn't really a big part of my life.
[00:02:54] Derek: compared to what we see in the movies, uh, growing up in the provinces in the Philippines, like [00:03:00] we don't have a similar experience where, you know, there's, there are parties. Um, in high school, and this is when you drink, we, I didn't have that experience. even though I would say that it's more relaxed in the Philippines, like, nobody would question if you, you know, buy alcohol underage, like, I don't think we even ID'd people there.
[00:03:22] Derek: Um, but it was just not a big part of my life. But, uh, I moved to the U. S. for, for the job that I was offered, and suddenly I was in a lot of happy hours, and I am an introvert, I dreaded those happy hours, and also, coming from a different country, there's a lot of cultural references that I don't get, uh, I still don't get some of them, but I'm working on those, like, we're watching a lot of cultural references, movies, Um, but yeah, so I just dreaded those happy hours and, you know, it's all centered around drinking whereas in the Philippines, [00:04:00] I think most of our happy hours were like, at least the ones that I've been to are more karaoke centric.
[00:04:07] Derek: So we're focused on the singing and what song to sing that would impress the people. Um, there's some drinking, but it, like I said, maybe because I wasn't seeking it, it wasn't. You know, front like top of mind for me. I always tell this story because I think it's funny. because when my first happy hour, it was somewhere in San Diego and it was this nice area.
[00:04:31] Derek: I think it was like a resort kind of thing. It was my first, I think it was my second week in America. And they or, they asked me what I wanted to drink and I didn't know what to order so in a panic I said champagne and they all laughed and they were like, wow, are we in a wedding? but I didn't know. So I had my champagne and, but.
[00:04:53] Derek: I'm a type of person who researches, and so I was like, I'm going to research what to drink in a happy hour and I'm [00:05:00] going to be practicing and get better at it. And so, that's what I did. I trained for happy hours. but it was still not a big part of my life back then. Um, So I would just drink to kind of calm the nerves and to fit in in those happy hours.
[00:05:17] Derek: But one use for alcohol that I discovered maybe a year in was that I can use it to go to sleep. I was assigned to a project that I think my role was two levels above what I was currently at the time. And it was very high stress. Uh, I work in consulting and I do project management for cloud application implementations.
[00:05:42] Derek: And it was just so stressful that I couldn't sleep most nights. And so I found out that once I had three glasses of wine, maybe two, I go straight to sleep. And so that's, I think when I. started, using alcohol for something, and that's for [00:06:00] sleeping, but still it was, it was fine at that point.
[00:06:03] Kathleen: and so when, when did it shift to not being fine? Mm
[00:06:10] Derek: question. Um, I think I was successful in moderating my drinking until I lost my mom in 2020, and that's when Things changed for me. Suddenly, the moderation became hard, and I was really struggling with that because I thought, and it's silly now, but I thought I deserved drinking because, you know, everybody else started moving on with their lives and, meanwhile, I'm still stuck with my grief and, like, I even thought about what quitting my high stress job because I'm like, what's the point?
[00:06:48] Derek: uh, I, I worked mainly to support my mom's, um, hospitalization bills and things like that. So she was really central in my life and my family's life. [00:07:00] And so losing her was a big blow. And so. for a few years, a couple of years, I thought I deserve this. Um, so that's when the moderation became harder.
[00:07:11] Derek: And then in April 2021, not even a full year. But, after my mom passed away, my dad passed away. And so it was just, you know, compounding grief. Um, and even more. So I drank more because it's like, what the hell is happening? Um, so. Yeah, kept doing that, attempted to still moderate, and this is when I started adding rules.
[00:07:41] Derek: like, only the weekend, like, drinking only the weekend, and only after five. And And then later on it's like, oh, but Tuesday's date night, so I'm allowed to drink on Tuesdays too, and up to three drinks every time I, I [00:08:00] drink. And then later on the three drinks became heavier and heavier pours. So if I'm being honest, the three became like six more like.
[00:08:11] Derek: and that's when it just, I think, Okay. Got unmanageable. Um, no, there were no, uh, wreckage, nothing like that. I was still performing, at my job. So I thought that this is fine. Like, everything is fine because, you know, I still have my house. I still have my relationships. I still have my job. So, and I deserve this, I thought.
[00:08:36] Derek: So I kept drinking. And then the days or months leading up to the death anniversary, I was closer to my mom. So, every time June 4th was about to come, that's when I would drink more. And then it starts really, Mother's Day. Because everybody's celebrating Mother's, and then I don't have my mother anymore, and usually my mom's birthday is around Mother's Day [00:09:00] too, so May is when it starts, and then it just gets worse through, the beginning of June, and that's when I would drink a lot.
[00:09:08] Kathleen: Mm hmm, mm hmm. And so at what point, Derek, did you decide that this was no longer the path for you? Mm,
[00:09:21] Derek: 2022. When, so it was two days after my mom's death anniversary. her death anniversary landed on a Saturday and then Sunday was still a weekend, so I still drank. and then Monday came and I really decided that something's, something needs to change because I don't feel good anymore.
[00:09:42] Derek: Physically, I felt heavier. mentally, I felt slower. And I was just depressed, I think. Um, and, and it's a cycle, right? You feel depressed, and you drink more, and then you become even more depressed. So it was like a, a cycle [00:10:00] that was hard to break. but Monday, June 6th, I thought, You know what, let's just go back for, to moderating.
[00:10:07] Derek: And I picked up the book, This Naked Mind. by Annie Grace. I had a physical book, which interestingly, I bought earlier in 2022, but didn't read. and then in June, I downloaded the audiobook version and I listened to it and I was, you know how sometimes you hate watch a show? Uh, So I was I would say I was hate listening to it because she was saying all the truth that I Didn't want to hear but the thing is I identified with her story, you know I have friends in 12 step programs, and I've been to a lot of 12 step meetings, and I have good experiences as visit as a visitor.
[00:10:49] Derek: I find their stories inspiring, but the thing is, they're not my story. Like, I didn't identify with the stories that I was, uh, hearing. But with Annie Grace, [00:11:00] um, her story was very similar to mine. You know, working in the corporate world, um, waking up at three o'clock and, that's the time when we're really honest about our drinking.
[00:11:12] Derek: But then you wake up in the morning and it seems like nothing happened. And then five p. m. hits and then, yeah, I'm gonna drink again. So I just resonated and identified with her story. So that's when I decided, you know, I'm going to give this a shot and And yeah, so one day became seven days, and then, from there, I'm like, let's do 14 days, and then, oh, how about 30 days?
[00:11:39] Derek: So, I just kept going, um, from there, and somewhere along the way, I created my first mocktail, and I thought, hey, this scratches the itch somehow. And so, and I have. I've, always been fascinated with mixology, um, with alcohol before. [00:12:00] And so I thought, oh, why not use that skill to come up with, uh, good mocktails that would help surf the urge, and scratch that itch for me.
[00:12:11] Derek: And so that's when I started playing with mocktails and then about a month after I started posting on Instagram. And that's when I started Mocktails.
[00:12:22] Sonia: Wow. So how did you become the Mocktail Whiz? was it just your personal Instagram account and you were posting recipes and then all of a sudden you're like, I'm going to brand this the Mocktail Whiz.
[00:12:34] Derek: I started with just my personal account and my personal account is private, so I didn't really get any attention from my drinky friends and my normal, my normal friends on Instagram. So I, for, for a brief moment, I opened my private account. to public. And once I did that and posted a couple more recipes, it got a lot of attention, like thousands of views, hundreds of [00:13:00] likes.
[00:13:00] Derek: And I thought, Oh, they're great. There's an interest in, in this, and I had so many recipes in my head that I just wanted to share them. not for anything, not looking for anything in return, but just because I think I was in a pink cloud at that point. so that's when I created Mocktail Whiz, uh, as a separate account so that I can, make my private account private again.
[00:13:23] Derek: And also so to not annoy my friends who don't care about not drinking because, um, so that's when I started Mocktail Wisdom. That was in July of 2022.
[00:13:34] Sonia: Wow. So when you talk about how you started drinking, it was forsocial reasons and happy hours. So. When you go out now, what do you order? What is your go to non alcoholic drink to order?
[00:13:49] Derek: Yeah, hopefully they would have some options that are mocktails or non alcoholic cocktails. where I live it's not very common yet. Um, [00:14:00] so if it, if there's nothing on the menu, I would just pick the most, like from the cocktail list, just choose something that I think would still sound or taste good without the alcohol.
[00:14:13] Derek: And usually that's a, some sort of spicy margarita. I think that's like a, Good choice if they have it because the heat from the jalapeno or the tajin rim, that's good enough and it comes in a nice glass too with garnish. I would do spicy pineapple margarita or spicy margarita, um, if, if they don't have that, a virgin mojito.
[00:14:37] Derek: is also good because it tastes fresh and it looks like a real drink. Um, so those are my two go tos if they don't have options, but if they have options and sometimes I'm at a point in my sobriety where I don't need mocktails all the time, every day anymore, because I feel like the work is done.
[00:14:56] Derek: Like I don't need, I don't need alcohol and I'm confident in my [00:15:00] sobriety that, you know, when I go out, sometimes I don't feel like water is fine. We, I later realized that the adult drink is water. That's what we need.
[00:15:11] Kathleen: mm
[00:15:12] Derek: But if they have options, especially if they have non alcoholic cocktail options with spirit alternatives, I make sure to order it just to let them know that there's demand for this.
[00:15:24] Derek: And because that's how these options stay in the menu is when people order it. So, so that's what I do.
[00:15:32] Sonia: Wow. So you can go to the bar just to let people know, and you can order a spicy margarita without the tequila.
[00:15:42] Derek: hmm. Yep, yep, and it's gonna be delicious most of the time.
[00:15:46] Sonia: I love that. And so I know you just said you don't always need to have a mocktail and I know I get that question a lot that is a mocktail just replacing alcohol? is it just replacing that ritual? And so I always say, [00:16:00] well, that's better than drinking. Um, but how, how did you see it when you started saying to yourself, okay, you know what?
[00:16:06] Sonia: I don't need to have a mocktail every night.
[00:16:09] Derek: Yeah, I think the, with the book that I read, This Naked Mind, it really made me not want alcohol anymore. So from the get go, I knew that alcohol is bad for me. And it doesn't do anything good in my body. Like the, the, the buzz that, that like the happy feeling. That's true. But it only lasts 20 minutes and maximum, you know, and then the more you drink, you don't quite get that first hit anymore.
[00:16:41] Derek: So once I. found out about that, the appeal of alcohol kind of lost its grip on me, but the thing is the habit and the, the wanting to feel included, those are the things that I was trying to combat and those are the things that I used mocktails for. Like, [00:17:00] Just a habit of, oh, having a fancy little beverage on a Friday at 5pm, like I don't need the alcohol anymore, I don't want it, but it's just that this habit of, you know, having some nice drink, or if I'm at a happy hour, um, and I don't want to answer questions, you know, why are you not drinking, or are you still doing that no drinking thing, I would just get a mocktail and so that, As soon as they see something on my hand, they don't ask questions anymore.
[00:17:30] Derek: So, so really, the mocktails, and I always say this, that they can be for everyone. I know it's not for everyone. there are groups of people who get triggered by, mocktails, especially those that taste like the real thing. So I guess it's a very individual choice from my end. I didn't want the alcohol anymore.
[00:17:52] Derek: So I feel like I was more free from the trigger. I was just trying to. be invisible during [00:18:00] happy hours and not get asked questions or, you know, just replacing that habit. And in the beginning, during the first couple of weeks, that was what I was using alcohol for. I wasn't replacing it for, for the effect of the drinking.
[00:18:14] Derek: I was just trying to, replace the habit, because a habit is hard to break. It takes practice. And so, when you feel the urge at 5 p. m., that's because you've built that habit. And so, I just replaced that in the beginning with, oh, time for a mocktail. And then the more distance I had between me and alcohol is the less of a habit it became, if that makes sense.
[00:18:38] Kathleen: hmm. Mm
[00:18:40] Sonia: so it's interesting. So Derek and I met at a alcohol free event and so a year and a half ago, but Derek in the time that you've been making mocktails, have you seen that culture change around, social drinking and people swapping out non alcoholic beverages?[00:19:00]
[00:19:00] Derek: Yeah, actually, a lot of people who consume mocktails still drink alcohol. that's what I found, um, and I think there's really a movement, and, and they're using mocktails as a form of, um, to, to moderate. I've heard of the term used, zebra striping. So where, this is where you maybe start with a mocktail and then drink a cocktail and then switch to a mocktail again to kind of pace yourself.
[00:19:25] Derek: Um, you know, so that you're still in the social situation, like you can still have a little buzz, but, you're kind of like controlling it by using mocktails as kind of like a, like a supplement that won't get you buzzed. And then in terms of social situations, I've also noticed that a lot of people are more more open to saying that they don't drink anymore.
[00:19:50] Derek: Like just in my project, I know two people when I said that I don't drink, uh, they opened up that, Oh, I also don't drink anymore. So I feel like it's [00:20:00] becoming like a cool thing almost, or or a decision that's not, Um, I'm not saying that that's the case everywhere. I still have, people who would be challenging, like, why I'm not drinking as if it's my choice for them.
[00:20:17] Derek: And when it's really my choice for myself, but you'll still have that. But I feel like people are more open to other people not drinking. Um, and actually, 1 story that I like to share is we, I had a meeting, we had a. sales event where we were hosting a lot of clients. It was a big event for my market.
[00:20:40] Derek: And so I was there and they all know that I wasn't drinking anymore. So I ordered a mocktail in the beginning before we went up to the venue and people were like, Oh Derek, I thought you were not drinking. I'm like, Oh yeah, this is a mocktail. Um, and, and they were like, Oh my gosh, that looks so good. So, so I was like, At least [00:21:00] eight people ordered the same drink because they said, oh yeah, we want to be in our A game.
[00:21:05] Derek: We want to be, fully present as we host our client. So this is a good idea to start with mocktails. And so I thought, I think that there's more openness to it. so yeah, I've seen that change since, you know, I started.
[00:21:21] Kathleen: So Derek,This is so interesting. This story that just shared about, people trying the mocktail before the sales event being like, yeah, that's a good idea. What do you think? What do you think are some misconceptions about mocktails?
[00:21:35] Derek: that's a great question. I think a lot of people get turned off by mocktails because they think it's just boring. Or, like, it's just a bunch of juices. And that's kind of why I started my, my account is to show you that you can still have fun. fun, delicious and complex drinks without the alcohol that can sometimes stand up to a real cocktail, [00:22:00] because mocktails, and I think it's like a, it's had, the term has had a bad rap of just a combination of juices.
[00:22:08] Derek: But with, in this day and age, we have a lot of spirit alternatives and a lot of new elixirs that, um, are non alcoholic that can give you that same complexity that you can get from a cocktail. I guess the first misconception is that, um, mocktails are boring and it's just a bunch of juices or it's like Shirley Temple, which is just sweet.
[00:22:32] Derek: Um, I think that's no longer true. And, So yeah, I, I've, I've also bartended in community events where I'm exclusively serving mocktails, and people sometimes are just not aware of them. And so when you explain them, explain what they are and they taste it, they're like, I've never had this before, this is really good, so I think that's, that's one of the main misconceptions is this just sweet, or it's just juices, or it's [00:23:00] boring.
[00:23:01] Sonia: Yeah.
[00:23:02] Kathleen: sure. I think I've been opened up to. So many new mocktails recently and like one of my favorites is quite Quite bitter and I know one of Sonia's favorites tastes like an old boot. So not sweet at all
[00:23:16] Sonia: my god, do you wanna know where I discovered that one? I discovered that one where I met Derek, and it is the parch. Um, I think it's either like the spicy pinorita, and the one that's smoky. It's the one that's
[00:23:31] Derek: that's a spicy piñerita.
[00:23:33] Kathleen: Sonia let me test that one I guess like after she had come back from the event and I was like this Tastes like a boot
[00:23:39] Sonia: I drank it all
[00:23:40] Kathleen: old leather boot
[00:23:43] Sonia: drank that all night.
[00:23:46] Derek: I like that too.
[00:23:47] Sonia: right? I liked it too.
[00:23:48] Derek: like that one too, but yeah, that's the thing too. It's a matter of preference. And this is why in my Instagram, I don't. I'm, I'm, I just want it to be a [00:24:00] positive space, so I just keep it nice and not.
[00:24:03] Kathleen: So, like, you wouldn't welcome my comment about
[00:24:06] Derek: Oh, that, no, no, no, that, that's a welcome comment, but I always say that it's, it's a preference, because sometimes I would like One thing and then other people just in their palate. It's not and I'll give you an example So they always ask me from my book the mocktail club. What's your most? What's your favorite cop?
[00:24:24] Derek: Mocktail from there and I always say the fiery squad because it has ginger syrup. It has bitters It has not call it tequila and lime So it's kind of like a a bigger like an older cousin of a margarita that's more mature So I love that that recipe a lot. And so in my events, I would always serve it, but people don't usually like it because to some it's too strong.
[00:24:49] Derek: Like this, the taste is too strong and some gravitate towards the more floral and nicer flavors. And so, it's just a matter of preference. So there's no [00:25:00] wrong answers. Although there are still some You know, mocktails that are pretty bad, especially if it's from a bar that they don't really have a good bar program.
[00:25:12] Derek: And it's like, the worst was, I was in a hotel in Carlsbad, and I said, Can I just have a virgin margarita, please? And I was told, I'll just give you a lemonade, it's the same thing.
[00:25:25] Kathleen: oh
[00:25:26] Sonia: no,
[00:25:27] Derek: sir, I didn't say anything,
[00:25:30] Kathleen: sir, that is incorrect,
[00:25:32] Derek: that is so incorrect. There's no lemon in margarita. It's lime. So just that first point, I didn't say anything, but I just said, okay, I'll have one.
[00:25:42] Sonia: That's so frustrating. So Derek, if we take a little detour into making mocktails, can you help us set up a mocktail bar? So what are some key tools and like equipment that every mocktail enthusiast should have?
[00:25:59] Derek: I think you should [00:26:00] have a shaker first in terms of tools. So that could be a Boston shaker. Those are the two tin that kind of, locks together. Or for home use, a cobbler shaker is fine too. A cobbler shaker is the one with like a glass and then a cap and then a, uh, a lid. So it's like three in one.
[00:26:21] Derek: You have the mixing glass and the strainer built into it. So that's what I. recommend for home use, um, is a shaker, but if you don't have access to that, uh, mason jar with a lid also works. Um, and you can drink straight from it too. So, you know, it doesn't have to be fancy. So I would have some form of a shaker, could be a cobbler shaker or a mason jar with a lid and a form of like a measuring cup.
[00:26:50] Derek: thing. So a jigger, um, is what I recommend. There are different kinds. Or if you don't have access to that, you probably have like a Las [00:27:00] Vegas shot glass souvenir. That can work too. So we want to keep it very simple. Um, and then once you get, familiar and used to that, then you can upgrade to the more, the fancier tools.
[00:27:14] Sonia: It's so funny. I threw out so much of that stuff when I got sober. and now I find myself like I just bought a muddler. And
[00:27:22] Derek: Oh, look at you!
[00:27:23] Sonia: yeah, I'm like re establishing some of those tools,
[00:27:27] Derek: hmm.
[00:27:28]
[00:27:57] Kathleen: What do you think, Derek, are the most [00:28:00] versatile mixers that would work, that work in mocktails?
[00:28:05] Derek: Um, ginger beer.
[00:28:07] Kathleen: Ooh,
[00:28:08] Derek: would say ginger beer.
[00:28:11] Derek: there's that heat from the ginger. It's also, um, sweet already, and there's the carbonation too. So it hits a lot of the, you know, texture. You have carbonation, and then there's that sweet factor. So you already have a sweetening agent.
[00:28:28] Derek: And then the heat also, or the spice, kind of helps mimic the burn of alcohol. So you can be, it can be as simple as a whiskey alternative and ginger beer.
[00:28:39] Kathleen: Mm
[00:28:40] Derek: or tequila and ginger beer, you know, so, so I think that's the simplest, most accessible mixer, um, that, that you can get.
[00:28:52] Kathleen: I think that's a good one. I recently had, a like a virgin Moscow mule like in the
[00:28:59] Derek: hmm.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] Kathleen: Cup, and it was Amazing. It was so good
[00:29:04] Derek: Yeah, I actually have, uh, in my deck, I have a, a Jalisco Mule. Mm hmm. With tequila alternative and, um, I added a couple slices of jalapeno in there too, to really spice it, spice it up. And then ginger beer.
[00:29:22] Kathleen: You like the spice derek you are like you are into the spice
[00:29:26] Derek: Yeah, in my, in my mocktails, I do. In food, not so much, but in, in the mocktails, I like it because you feel the, the heat coming down your throat and kind of like, it's reminiscent of alcohol, but yeah, that's a good point.
[00:29:40] Derek: I like my mocktails to have something of an oomph in it, like either a spicy aspect or bitter. Um, because if it's just sweet and delightful, you probably just take a shot of the whole thing. So I want to enjoy my, my mocktails a little slower, as I'm having [00:30:00] conversations or having dinner.
[00:30:01] Derek: So yeah.
[00:30:03] Sonia: Derek, is the fever tree the ginger beer that you use?
[00:30:07] Derek: I use Fevertree, that's really good, the premium ginger beer. I actually used that just last weekend. And then Q Mixers is also good. So those two are, are good ginger beer because they're really bold and spicy.
[00:30:23] Sonia: okay, so that you love the spicy and the, I, smoky. What is another ingredient that you think everybody really enjoys in a mocktail? I
[00:30:36] Derek: came to mind is lavender. Um, and this is just coming from the, the events that I've bartended where I'm serving my mocktails and I always have four options. The fiery squad that I like so much that not a lot of people like, uh, that's one. I always serve a rum punch and a lavender grapefruit [00:31:00] cooler.
[00:31:00] Derek: And the lavender grapefruit cooler is just gin alternative, lavender syrup, grapefruit juice, and lemon juice. And that's always the most popular. And so I think a lot of people like lavender, unless they're allergic. I've also encountered people who are allergic, from lavender. So, but yeah, lavender syrup.
[00:31:19] Derek: It's very versatile. You can buy it. Uh, it also add, adds a nice color to it. You can do a lavender margarita with
[00:31:27] Kathleen: Mm hmm
[00:31:28] Derek: two ounce of tequila alternative, one ounce of lavender syrup and one ounce of simple, lime juice. And you have a simple lavender marg.
[00:31:38] Kathleen: So you've mentioned Derek a couple of like substitutes for you've mentioned a tequila substitute. I think in that the Lavender one. It's a gin substitute. Did you say?
[00:31:48] Derek: I mix it with gin substitute.
[00:31:50] Kathleen: yeah. Yeah. So what are What are some of the best non alcoholic substitutes that you've come across?
[00:31:59] Derek: there's [00:32:00] a lot of brands and also within each brand they have different spirit alternatives and so some really have one, at least one that's really really good. So what started it all for me was Ritual. tequila, ritual zero proof tequila. Um, but now my favorite for, from the ritual line is the rum alternative.
[00:32:23] Derek: So that's, if you ask me what my favorite drum alternative is, it's the one from ritual because it has, it tastes like alcohol. So if you're into that, I would, I would highly recommend it. It has flavors of vanilla and like baking spices. So it's really good and ticky. And so, just that rum alternative with pineapple juice and lime juice, you have like a, you know, some sort of a tropical drink.
[00:32:48] Derek: Um, Free Spirits tequila is really, really good. They reformulated it, and now it tastes really good. Like the real thing. So [00:33:00] Free Spirits Tequila, I highly, highly recommend. from Liars, I really like the Italian Orange, which islike their Campari. and then they also have an Italian Spritz, um, which is kind of like an Aperol.
[00:33:15] Derek: And those two are my favorite from the Liars line.
[00:33:17] Kathleen: what's your favorite gin alternative? Because I used to be a gin drinker. I'm not anymore, but I love gin
[00:33:23] Derek: Uh huh. I would say that my favorite gin alternative is Monday, Monday gin. Um, they, I think so far that's the gin alternative that's most juniper forward. So juniper is that flavor that kind of makes gin, gin. Like the woody, piney flavor. And I found that Monday gin is the most juniper forward. option.
[00:33:51] Derek: Although ritual and free spirits gin are also good and they're also accessible because you can get those from, like [00:34:00] Total Wine.
[00:34:01] Kathleen: Okay.
[00:34:02] Derek: But I would say Monday is my favorite gin alternative.
[00:34:06] Sonia: I also like cedars. I think they have a gin alternative.
[00:34:10] Derek: I haven't tried that.
[00:34:11] Sonia: Okay, so Derek, I am obsessed with mocktails and so people will come over and I do a lot of the pre made mocktails. I'll be like, try this sangria or try this mojito. And always someone turns the can over and is like, there's so much sugar in this.
[00:34:30] Sonia: what are you doing? I'm like, well, at least it's not alcohol. But. I'm gonna start making more of my own mocktails. Can you suggest some low sugar or like sugar free alternatives for common ingredients like juices and like syrups?
[00:34:45] Derek: Yeah, so there's monk fruit sweetener, um, that are available, in the, in grocery stores and online. So you can make simple syrup with monk fruit, um, sweetener. So you'll have like a zero sugar [00:35:00] syrup. So it's usually just equal parts monk fruit sweetener and water, and you just, let that dissolve over water.
[00:35:07] Derek: Over water over fire. Um, and so you'll have a, a zero sugar, uh, sweetener and or monk fruit drops too. They have those. Um, and so those that in terms of like very, very low sugar, that's, that's what I use. But if you don't have access to that, even just regular simple syrup, since if you're making the mocktail at home, you can control how much you put in it.
[00:35:36] Derek: so yeah, last time we had a Cinco de Mayo, I think it was 2023. I had some, friends over who are all alcohol free and we just had a margarita bar where I have a zero proof tequila and then I have different syrups so that it's because a margarita is just you know, tequila, some syrup, [00:36:00] and some lime juice.
[00:36:01] Derek: So I had like prickly pear syrup, strawberry syrup, lavender, and so you can make blood orange syrup, so you can make your own margarita, but then there was one guy who was keto, I think, is his dietary restriction, and so he didn't do sugar, but I had monk fruit, um, monk fruit drops. I mixed, tequila alternatives and monk fruit drops and fresh lime juice and he was happy with it, so, so yeah, it can be very flexible.
[00:36:30] Kathleen: Derek, What are some unusual ingredients that you've used in a mocktail, or what are some of the most unusual ones that you've come across?
[00:36:39] Derek: That's a great question. The first thing that came to mind is a recipe in my new Mocktail Recipe deck. Um, because I wanted to have more options for people who don't have access to spirit alternatives. So I was playing with, tea and over steeping them to get a [00:37:00] lot of flavor and use that as base for my mocktail.
[00:37:02] Derek: So I have a couple of in, recipes in the, in the deck. One is a barley sour. So what I did was I took barley tea and steeped it longer so that it's more bitter and you can get more of the flavor and color and then I used that as a whiskey alternative and created a whiskey sour. So I really like that one but I think I'm most proud of the spicy Earl Gorita that I did.
[00:37:28] Derek: So it's Earl Grey tea, and Earl Grey tea that I steeped longer, and then I used that as my tequila base, and then I added, jalapeno, just a couple slices, and some agave syrup and lime juice, and it turned out to be delicious, like I was so happy when I was, this was used, uh, during my recipe development phase for, for the deck, and I, I I tried it, I had the idea, I wrote it down, but after I tried it, I was [00:38:00] so proud of it.
[00:38:00] Derek: I took a selfie with the drink, which is silly, but I'm like, it's, it's, yeah, it was delicious. I like it.
[00:38:07] Kathleen: Oh, that's amazing. So, okay. So you obviously are really considerate of the ingredients that are going in and the flavors. What about presentation? How important is presentation to a mocktail and what are some of your favorite mocktail presentation ideas?
[00:38:25] Derek: That's great. Because, uh, I think, uh, For us to have the complete experience, presentation is key. And that includes the glass that you're serving it in, the type of ice that you use, and then the garnish. So, from a garnish perspective, I always use garnishes that are related to the ingredients that I have on the drink.
[00:38:49] Derek: So, you can be very creative. a lot of cocktails have a citrus component to it. So you can be creative with the peel of a lemon or peel of an [00:39:00] orange to make fun shapes and then sit them on top of the rim. Um, or if we're being practical, citrus can be very expensive if you might, like I was just at a grocery store, last week and lime is 49 cents each and they're tiny.
[00:39:19] Derek: And so this is why, even though I always recommend using fresh lime juice or fresh citrus juice, I'm not above the bottled ones just because I know how expensive they can be. But in terms of garnish, let's say you have, your precious lime that are getting old. Um, you can dehydrate them and, and then, uh, so I don't have a dehydrator.
[00:39:44] Derek: Is that what they call it? But I just put them in like low heat in the oven for a few hours so that it dries up. And then I put them in a jar and I don't know if you have a video aspect, but, I have some.
[00:39:57] Kathleen: Nice.
[00:39:58] Sonia: Yeah,
[00:39:59] Derek: citrus and [00:40:00] I put in a nice jar. It's nice decoration, too But I like that they last a long time and so even if I don't have fresh citrus anymore I can just pop this over a mocktail and it looks elevated you can even sometimes use like a tiny clothespin and And clip it to to your glass and it looks like an elevated mocktail Mm
[00:40:25] Sonia: love that. Derek, I'm so excited to talk about your deck and your book. And can you just tell us a little bit more about what people can expect from it?
[00:40:35] Derek: Yeah, so my goal in both the Mocktail Club and Make It A Mocktail recipe deck is to make it as easy as possible. So I made sure that if you, because I know that spirit alternatives can be expensive, so my goal is if you just have one, let's say you were gifted a gin alternative, that you'll find at least a dozen recipes for, [00:41:00] for that, just that alternative.
[00:41:02] Derek: I, as much as possible, or, actually I didn't at all mix two different spirit alternatives together just because I know that that can be expensive. So, both the Mocktail Club and Make It A Mocktail recipe deck, you only need one, spirit alternative at a time. And then the rest of the ingredients you can find from your grocery store.
[00:41:23] Derek: So, I didn't use any hard to find ingredients because we've all had a recipe book in the past where there, you need a unicorn tear or something from the Amazon or, so I made sure that the ingredients are easy to find and then you can have a lot of fun just with, you know, one spirit alternative.
[00:41:45] Derek: Or in both the book and the deck, there is a section where you don't need any spirit alternatives. And like I mentioned earlier, it can be tea that you already have, like earl grey tea or barley tea or something like that.
[00:41:58] Sonia: how did the deck and the [00:42:00] book go together?
[00:42:01] Derek: they are, there are some overlap. Um, so there are recipes from the book that you will see in the recipe deck. In the recipe deck I created, 20 new recipes there. And so some of the recipes are coming from the Mocktail Club. So the Mocktail Club has 75 recipes. And then the Make It A Mocktail Recipe Deck has 50 recipes.
[00:42:23] Derek: So, so yeah, it's good, you can get just one, uh, or the other, or both. either of them, or both of them look, will look really good in your bar cart. So, yeah, I hope you check it out.
[00:42:36] Kathleen: That's amazing. I'm really curious, what's the process like for developing recipes? what was it like for, to do that for your book and your deck?
[00:42:45] Derek: Yeah, that's a great question. I actually still have a day job, and I say still as if I'm leaving it. No, I'm not leaving my day job, it pays the bills.So, when I was writing the book, I would be still doing my day job and then You know, inspiration [00:43:00] strikes at the most interesting time.
[00:43:02] Derek: sometimes I'm in a meeting and I would just, Oh, strawberry and guava. That sounds like a good combination. So I would write that down in my notes and my phone. And then, so I would just keep writing these ideas as I encounter them or out grocery shopping. And you know what? I was doing kickboxing while I was doing both the projects and The ideas come to me when I'm doing, during my sessions.
[00:43:27] Derek: And it's so funny because you need to pay attention to the combination that's being taught to you. And sometimes I would just zone out because I'm thinking of ideas and recipes. So anytime I would get the idea, I would write it down on my notes. And then because I have a day job, I only am able to do the testing on the weekend.
[00:43:45] Derek: So I do all my recipe testing and development on the weekend itself. And then, I adjust from there.
[00:43:53] Kathleen: Amazing. So are you like, putting things together, then writing them down, trying again,
[00:43:57] Derek: Mm hmm,
[00:43:58] Kathleen: Okay. [00:44:00] Nice.
[00:44:00] Derek: yeah, I, already have a rough idea of, of all the ingredients that would go into a drink, and then I would just play with the proportion. so, like, oh, that's a little too sweet, so maybe tone it down a little bit, and then, oh, what if I add this, so, so that's what I do during the weekends.
[00:44:17] Kathleen: Nice. And do you have people testing them for you?
[00:44:21] Derek: Yeah, I have my family doing the testing. Um, there, there's actually a funny story. one of my friends asked why there's no Bloody Mary in the Mocktail Club. And I, I told her that's because I didn't really drink much of that before. and so, when I was given the second opportunity to write the deck, I made sure to include a Bloody Mary, and so, I think I just had a sip of it before, but it was too long ago that I don't remember it anymore, so, I tried to make my own version of it, I, I mixed up it.
[00:44:57] Derek: two different versions, one with fresh [00:45:00] tomato juice that I juiced myself and one with canned tomato juice, which is what is usually used. And then in both versions, I added some cucumber, fresh cucumber juice to make it more fresh. And then my mother in law She loves Bloody Marys, or at least have had it more recently than I did, so I gave her, a blind test of, which one do you like?
[00:45:24] Derek: Um, so she liked the, the one in the canned, canned tomato juice, because it's more consistent flavor, and it's more, um, robust because if you just juice fresh tomatoes It depends on the tomatoes that you'll get sometimes they're not too red yet so yeah, so I do have some some friends and family as my testers
[00:45:46] Kathleen: Nice. That's amazing.
[00:45:49] Sonia: Derek, can you share with us your favorite recipe from either the book or deck?
[00:45:57] Derek: Yeah, it's, I would have to say the Fiery [00:46:00] Squad, which is, it's a play on a cocktail called Mexican Firing Squad, which has tequila, aromatic bitters, grenadine and lime juice, but in my version I split the grenadine. Grenadine is usually pomegranate, is pomegranate juice basically, uh, or pomegranate, the fruit, um, made into a syrup.
[00:46:23] Derek: So in my version I added, um, ginger syrup to make it a little more spicy. So that's my favorite because, um, It tastes like a real cocktail. recently I've been loving my rum punch, um, which is available. I think they're in both of the, the book and the deck. I call it, it's called Holiday Punch in, in the book because it was one of those, seasonal ones, but, um, it's basically the rum, um, I use ritual rum with, cranberry juice and ginger [00:47:00] beer and some simple syrup because of, it's kind of like reminiscent of the holidays.
[00:47:05] Derek: because of the cranberry and, ginger. So yeah, so those two are probably my favorite.
[00:47:11] Sonia: Maybe we'll make that one at Christmas,
[00:47:13] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Yeah.
[00:47:15] Sonia: Derek, can you share any upcoming trends that are going on in the mocktail world that you're really excited about?
[00:47:22] Derek: So I think there are now a lot of, a lot more options than when I started two years ago. and I'm excited to see that there's, there's a lot of brands that are coming up with their own elixirs and beverages and, um, they're not copying, it's not a, a replacement for an existing alcoholic drink.
[00:47:45] Derek: So there are the analogs is what we call them that are, this is a tequila alternative or this is a gin alternative, but there are also a lot more of the original ones who, that are, that are not trying to mimic a taste of alcohol, but [00:48:00] it's their own thing. an example would be, um, Tennyson. Um, they're, they're a brand.
[00:48:06] Derek: It's like a black ginger, type of spirit. It's not alcoholic. It's, it's very, very good. it has ginger flavors in it. yeah. So there's a lot of these original, um, expressions, if you may, that are not copying alcohol. Another one is To Be Honest. It's that, that's the name of the beverage. And it's, it's, It kind of tastes like gin and you can use it as gin, but it's not really a gin alternative.
[00:48:33] Derek: but if you like the juniper flavor, yeah, to be honest, beverage, um, I would encourage you to check them out because they have really good gin. Nice tasting asparagus over there.
[00:48:45] Kathleen: What's next for you in the Mocktail Whiz, Derek? What's coming up? We'll
[00:48:51] Derek: That's a great question. so now I have the two products. So I'm enjoying just seeing people with, people tag me when [00:49:00] they, when they buy the book and the deck and that makes me so happy because, Even at this point, it's August and the first one came out in January. I still can't believe that this is happening.
[00:49:10] Derek: who would have thought that just with my decision to stop drinking that all this will come. if you had told me two years ago that, Oh, you'll have a book and a deck in your future. If you stop drinking, I would probably have laughed, and continued drinking. Um, but so I'm just enjoying my, the people tagging me on, pictures with the book in the deck.
[00:49:32] Derek: what I'm working on right now is I'm, I'm, I'm trying to be more consistent again with my Instagram because I.of took a backseat when I was working on the projects, and so now I'm doing a series, um, an Instagram series where I share Filipino flavors, through my mocktails, and that excites me, um, because for a time I was burned out, and I, I wasn't doing a lot [00:50:00] of content, but, when I had this idea of, hey, why don't I show, showcase flavors from my home country for awareness?
[00:50:08] Derek: And also I think there's a lot of good flavors that are, that I grew up with to share. That excited me again. So that's, I'm doing that right now. I'm doing a, a Filipino flavor Smocktail series. So, um, yeah, I'm excited about
[00:50:23] Kathleen: That's exciting, and your Instagram's so beautiful, Derek. I love the, the photos of the mocktails. It's
[00:50:30] Derek: Thank you.
[00:50:31] Kathleen: me want to drink them all.
[00:50:33] Derek: Thank you. I appreciate that.
[00:50:34] Sonia: and when you're done with the Filipino series, if you're interested, an Indian series would be amazing, too.
[00:50:41] Derek: Yeah, I have, I have a lot of Indian friends and so, yeah, and I've been to India once and, good flavors. Uh, I remember drinking a lot of lychee juice when I was there. Yeah, so.
[00:50:55] Kathleen: What, can you give us a preview, Derek, on one of the ingredients [00:51:00] you're making in your Filipino series? Mm hmm.
[00:51:03] Derek: Ooh, there is one that I'm making right now. It's called, banana, banana jackfruit. jackfruit is very common in the Philippines, so I'm making a banana jackfruit. I still can't decide if it's gonna be a daiquiri or, or something else, but I, I already know that it will have a, a banana jackfruit. type of jam with some rum alternative.
[00:51:27] Derek: I'm still figuring out the rest of the ingredients, but that's the one that I'm working on right
[00:51:32] Kathleen: I'm so excited for that one. Thank you. That's so good.
[00:51:36] Sonia: too. So Derek, how can our listeners get the Mocktail Club book and the Make It A Mocktail Recipe deck?
[00:51:44] Derek: Yeah, so it's so convenient. You can just look for, for the book in the deck on Amazon. they're available there now. Uh, you can also get it from Barnes and Noble and, wherever you get your books. Um, some local bookstores also carry them, which makes me so [00:52:00] happy. So, yeah. and if they don't carry So I would ask them if they would carry it.
[00:52:04] Derek: you can also go to my website, mocktailwiz. com, and I linked both the book and the deck there.
[00:52:11] Sonia: Amazing
[00:52:12] Kathleen: Thank you so much, Derek. We really appreciate it.
[00:52:15] Derek: Thank you so much for having me. It's nice chatting with you both.
[00:52:18] Kathleen: Well, we hope you enjoyed this deep dive into the world of non-alcoholic beverages with Derek Santiago, the mocktail whiz. [00:53:00]