Office 365 Distilled

Mickey Mouse takes the front of the stage on EP89 with a business diagram that looks at Collaboration (face) Content (right ear) and Communications (left ear). The model identifies the FOCUSED USABILITY of Content, Collaboration & Communication with the key tools being Exchange, SharePoint Online and MS Teams.

Steve has not always been a believer in the default view about personae but in this podcast, he explains that like a complex whisky there is value in personae. With FOCUSED USABILITY the audience value is understood and focused for the personae. And then S&M bring in lots of silence whilst they savour a fabulous Islay whisky created for a 200-year-old anniversary.

Show Notes

Mickey Mouse takes the front of the stage on EP89 with a business diagram that looks at Collaboration (face) Content (right ear) and Communications (left ear).  The model identifies the core functionality of Content, Collaboration & Communication with the key tools being Exchange, SharePoint Online and MS Teams.

Steve uses the word Personae and Marijn wonders if he is ill.  

Steve has not always been a believer in the default view about personae but in this podcast, he explains that like a complex whisky there is value in personae when the audience value is understood.  He goes on to explain this is described as Focused Usability where the Personae has the Desire (aka ADKAR) because you have identified the specific value they will get from MS Teams or SharePoint Online when combined with Exchange.  Collaboration, Content and Communications

The example discussed is to only allow the personae who need sites to have the rights to create sites.

And right in the middle of this Steve’s mother calls, Wendy Barks and Marijn must drag us back to his golden nugget from this week’s podcast!!

Marijn re-iterates the value in NOT giving everyone the rights to create sites… for example not having to train the personae who do not have rights to create sites.

Viva Insights tells Steve that he responds quickly to emails and Marijn asks if that is a thing… then they get to discuss what you can do in 6 minutes!

The conclusion is that defining policies around when to use a Site, Group, MS team or yammer group depends on the business need.  However, this is a variable in that the personae obtain different values from the M365 toolset depending on the Baseline governance that drives each of the services.

If you get the Awareness and governance by Personae right, you are already halfway to setting up the Desire by identifying the value in the product.

The boys drink the Lagavulin 8-year-old created to commemorate the 200th anniversary of the founding of the Lagavulin distillery by John Johnston in 1816… and they like it a lot!!

Creators & Guests

Marijn Somers
Microsoft MVP. Freelance Microsoft 365 expert focusing on user adoption and governance. Trainer. Licensed watchmaker.
Steve Dalby
Podcaster "Office365Distilled" Driving Collaboration Business Goals, Speaking about Governance, Whiskey taster and imbiber all round father and good guy.

What is Office 365 Distilled?

This podcast is presented by Marijn and Steve; two experienced Microsoft 365 and SharePoint consultants. In each podcast you will get a smile or two with a chunk of interesting and practical help in Microsoft 365. Then you get introduced you to what we hope is a Whisky you have not tasted before.

Audio file



We are not.

Strangers we are by choice.

2nd collaboration as an art form delivered as valued.

Hey Steve, hey marine.

Episode 18 nine.

Oh, and you probably have some really wonderful joked talk about that as well.

Yeah, yeah, I might have said episode 90, 'cause I've already said episode 89 once today.

Just you know.

Mareni failed to press the record button on the on the.

Desk, oh, you're not even anywhere near it.

It's here by my arm, isn't it? Yeah.

We we kind of got excited today.

Over a number of things one.

As usual, while we're working out our content, we we actually tasted a really rather unusual cold oeler whisky from Islay in Scotland.

So we might have been distracted a little bit on that, and I did enjoy it and then I had so much water I forgot to press record, but I can confirm our voices.

In my day.

Are now appearing in the appropriate place on the mixing desk. That's good.

I'm nice, nice nice.

Nice and it also gives me a chance to describe Mickey Mouse. Yet again, yes.

All right so.

That's not bad, but what?

I really need to do is make sure that I notice we're not recording before we get to the 58th minute of the podcast.

Yes, yeah. So I think I.

It would save so much time.

Think we were now like 15 minutes in or something and then yeah Oh well.

Yeah, we were 15 minutes in so I apologise D care the care.

Anyway, it's good. Yeah, that's OK. It's OK, just gives us time to rehash everything. All the errors that I always do gives me time to now better.

Create my sentences or something like that so.

All well, we've been chatting.

For a while on this now, so I'm going to rehash a little bit about this, but.

It started off.

Because we were talking about Barcelona tapes.

I don't know whether you guys have spotted our new newsletter. So we we issued a newsletter which had all of the Barcelona tapes and and.

Podcasts and they're also available on maranian Steve.

So if you go to Marine Steve, there's a big button that said, the Barcelona tapes and that will give you a whole series of podcasts, short podcasts. So 20 minutes or so, you know on the adkar distilling change and that kind of stuff that was our holiday chat and and so consequently.

They're both pulling change programmes for some reason at the moment for Microsoft 365, so I was kind of working around.

You know what Microsoft 365 actually delivers and trying to kind of provide some focus on that, and so I I came up with this diagram which I drew out for Moraine earlier who then got his camera and went.

That's good, I'm going to take a.

Photograph of that I'm I'm so going to use that for in every slide deck.

From now on. So whenever you see a diagram on Moraine slide deck that in the bottom right hand corner it says copyright size Steve, then you'll know where it.

Came from.

Yes, no, you're free to use.

It my friend, as always we work these together.

Anyway, where is?

It coming from so Mickey Mouse so.

We have Mickey Mouse's ears and Mickey Mouse's face, which is obviously 3 interlinked circles yeah and and I'm just trying to describe this to everybody else. Not to you marine you've already.

Seen it, I suppose. So you talk about.

It as well.

But anyway, so.

Yes, I did anyway, so and the.

Ears of this diagram are basically our exchange in our email and our share point online.

Which is where most of our content is. And of course, Microsoft five years ago and happy birthday to you.

Happy birthday to you. Developed Microsoft Teams of course, and that came out with you know, all the reasons behind it, but effectively, that's where our collaboration is supposed to happen.

Yeah wait wait wait wait.

Wait, I think you did a poor job of describing the Mickey Mouse diagram. So left ear communication, right ear content and the face of Mickey Mouse is is the Ms team, so it's all it's interlinked.

Oh no, I did I.

Just that you've done a very poor job of describing this.

Mickey Mouse drawing. OK, 'cause you're mixing up the function and the tool.

Huge yes yeah yeah yeah so indeed. So we've got communication on one year. Content on the other year and then collaboration in the middle as we face.

Just damn it.

Represented by the tools that exchange does most of the communications and and of course share point Online, manages most of our content.

Yeah, and MS Teams of course brings that together to do the collaboration exactly. Yes, third attempt well and and the two attempts that before we didn't record. Yes. So we we actually now know this diagram.

Yes, so forget about.

Very well anyway, so if you can envisage that that diagram, we're basically trying to look at that from the perspective of the end user.

And we're basically going to talk for the next whatever length of time on the usability of that model which exists.

We can't argue with this. Everybody that does Microsoft 365 knows that that is a fact. They all the tools we have available to us.

And and of course, how you focus on that. And we came up when we started.

Working this through that, you know it's kind of useless without context.

Yes, and they they have context with each other. So for example, of course Outlook is dealing with sort of communications and notifications and you came up with with a wonderful percentage of usage, which we'll get into in a little bit, I suppose.

And and of course, some of those emails are really about collaboration.

And the group and the distribution and the chat and all that kind of stuff. Which leads us into teams.

And of course, share point online is really our storage for our documents within our divisions and our teams, and we migrate our file shares over to it. But also of course with the group concept of a SharePoint site we have the ability to bring.

Documents into MS Teams and so that kind of brings it together, but that context is becoming more and more important.

So for example, you know one of the documents may well have got delivered by an email, and knowing what that email says provides context to that document, yeah?

So if I have meeting minutes in a nice Word document, but I didn't actually have the date of the meeting, then that information is probably stored in the email, Yep?

And Microsoft are aware of this, of course. So if anybody actually seen the new my contents tab, which I saw you was tweeting about.

Few weeks ago and about where where does this come from and what's this kind of functionality? There's a great section called attachments, so it shows you all the documents that are attached on your email, but when you click on them it doesn't actually open the document. It opens it.

Email, yeah, so you get the context and on the right hand side of the screen you get the email on the left hand side of the.

Screen you.

Get a picture.

Of the document.

Which is.

Just brilliant yeah, and of course it's one of those things that you should tell everybody about because you know. And then there's an example of our every persona. I now I've used the word.

Oh, if you use the P word oh OK.


The P where that use the P word. We'll get into that in a little bit, but that's something that applies to everybody in some way. Yeah, they get an email with with content.

So that's where we started coming from this we started trying to think about that model. That content, collaboration and communications.

Is not common to everybody. How do you define the usability of Microsoft 365 by considering those three things when different approaches to how they use it will be different to every.

Persona yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.

P for the kind of.

You know?

Does it leave a bad taste in your?

Mouth when you eat the bird.

I can't, I can't.

All right, yeah you.

Will have heard me say several times that I'm not a kind of big believer in personas, but that's potentially changed over these last two to three weeks as I've been kind of thinking about this.

That's OK, we all grow in our roles. We all grow in our knowledge, that's that's OK.

Stop enjoying it.

Ha ha.

Umm, so consequently, that's that's kind of our starting point and we we have some conclusions where we've thought this, through which we'll get to in the end.

And it includes a little bit of our baseline governance and policies and all that kind of stuff, because basically different personas.

We need different things.

True wow, that came out of my mouth as well.

And they got different rules, yeah?

They got different rules to live by and that was one of the like the one of the examples that you gave earlier and that I found super uhm useful like my golden nugget for this episode. The one, yeah?


Oh, you're golden nugget. Do you ever list these golden Nuggets on your blog site or anything?

I should I should? That's that's actually why I was writing down earlier. Like I on my blog, I went to until episode 50 something.

With all this not really show nodes, but really articles about what I.

Got out of this of of the podcast episode and and I stopped at some point, but I really should start again because every time we do a podcast episode, every time I drive back home, I think oh, this could be a session.

This could be.

A session that I could present at a conference or that we could present at a conference.

Every every single episode, but every single episode contains at least one golden nugget and the one Golden nugget that you wrote down was.

US UM that not everybody.

Should need should have the need to create a team or a SharePoint site because right now most of the time we're all creating like provisioning systems so that everybody could create a team or create or request the SharePoint site. But you actually say well, not everybody should.

Not everybody has the need to do that.

No, and and I I think I was also when I got this awareness in my head as well. I was going through the governance for MS Teams so I'm kind of taking a team at the moment through baseline governance of Microsoft Teams.

So you know, coming up with those high level things that we we need to decide and do, and then from that.

We'll have a design document created and a configuration list so that you can go and configure MS Teams with all the document done, and then you've basically got a change process so Microsoft Teams is done external access, blah blah blah or do it yes or no and all that. And of course the key question is do we allow users to create.

Teams and it's a blanket statement. Yeah, and the bottom line is usually I always say, yes, you know what I'm like.

Yeah, yeah.

I kind of hey, given the tools and it's going to cost me time and effort if I don't do that.

So if helpdesk have to do it or if the IT team have to do it, or if there's a workflow with the manager.

Being approved, I have to make sure the manager is there and all that kind of stuff. Or we governance it afterwards or whatever.

But the reality is that if you take your personas for your sites, there's some people that will never ever need to create a team. Actually, I'll go one further. They don't need teams.

Oh OK, you're active a job mate, whoops.

But also what what I?

What I and I'm going to come, Sir, I'm wholly yes, let's let's do like proper business speak. I'm going to circle back on that one.

Are you going to put it in the parking lot? Then park that one?

Let's spark that.

One general no.

Let's put a pin in it.

I am I'm I'm definitely going to come back on that statement that not not everybody needs teams, but while you were saying I don't want everybody to be able to create new collaboration or content.

I I was wondering, wouldn't it be more cumbersome to actually make a distinction on who should and who shouldn't and put all kinds of rules in place instead of just saying look, here's the.

Request form to request the team and we're just going to build it and and we're done with it instead.

Set of here's the here's the form, and now we need to put on certain security rules so that only the people that we think should be able to ask for something are allowed to see it.

And then we need to manage that security and blah blah blah. Wouldn't it just be easier to say OK? Here's the request.

Form and just fill it in if you need it.

Even though you might not need it, here it is anyway.

I'm just saying it, it might just be easier and less expensive to do that.

No, no I might.

It it it may be, but then you you still have the overhead of all these extra sites that you have to manage and then look after and all that kind of stuff and and wow am I changing my mind.

I must be getting old, all right so, but the the bottom line is that you're trying to work out.

Where the value is for these.

People all right.

Let's not call it persona as bad as people.

Don't do that.

So, but you're identifying the.

Value on you because you're going to basically make your change programme and and your communications and all that kind of to the to the people that need to use it.

Your personas, the roles they do, and if you're actually going to say hey, you can create a site.

Then they're going to go. Well, yeah, when I'm never going to use that. If you really understand your personas, yeah, if you don't understand if you just got them as labels and you're just going to say, hey, then you.

Can have it.

You're good to go, but the point is that you know a frontline worker. For example, the coalface worker is never going to need to create.

In Ms team sites 'cause they're never going to use it, they're never going to collaborate. Is that a better statement for your pinned comments?

Umm yeah yeah so.

So consequently, why would I want to distract them with the button and that you know that?

Well, this perspective.

If we're going to allow them to create sites, then I need them to be able to. I need to train them on how they create a site.

I need to train them on when they should create a site and I also need to show them how to go to wherever they decide to go and.

Train a site.

When there's a very good chance they.

Only have a mobile device.

That is actually a brilliant statement. Yes, because that might.

Can I take the pin out of that?

Yeah no yeah yeah. Well that that might be exactly as you said.

You got telephone call.

I'll go tell her.

And the doggy doesn't like the telephone.

Hello mother, how you doing?

OK, but you do remember what I was doing on a Wednesday night.

You forgot, you forgot that I was recording the podcast and net one now mother. You're on it.

Yep, but thank you for letting me know.

You're at home safe.

And sound bye.

There you go. My mother was over for the week and just travelled back to the UK. She was all safe and sound one more little.

Job to do.

She's home safe and sound.

Cool family life goes on here actually. Just as an aside our next podcast, we won't be here.

We will be in.

Oh, we will be in Antwerp. Yes, because we've got a whiskey change.

That's where.

Yes yes so so yes. In two weeks time we will actually be in your neck of the woods.

Yes yes yes yes yes OK?

So no more Wendy disturbing us and and no more. My mother phoney. So we need to make sure we do the podcast before we do the tasting. I know what happened last time.

No exactly.

Yes yes yeah.

Right, so let's go back to this then so.

So we so Stevens being a big boy now and realising that potentially there are context around all of these applications in that context is often about the kind of person with their you put your finger up to.

Say how was I was actually saying I I was somewhere in the middle of my sentence that it might actually be cheaper.

Do not give everybody the chance to create a SharePoint site or to create a team because as you said then you also need to train them around all these things so not having to train them might be less expensive than opening it up for everyone.

Yeah it it might be, I mean.

Good point.

The the answer about all of this.

Training is that how do I integrate the training into their daily training routines? You.

That as well.

Yeah, and that's where I say that they don't necessarily need collaboration, so I was potentially wrong about them not needing teams because those kinds of people will have heavy use of Veeva.

And we were learning and.

Yes yes yeah.

And that kind of stuff. And of course chat group chats and things is potentially there, but of course.

But don't your finger was there again?

You you can you can make your teams application more easy too because you can just hide that teams button from their left rail navigation.

At the end of the day.

They, uh, some personas don't have the time to go and work out what that button is, you know, because they are operating a machine or they are.

Exactly, yeah.

You know doing that kind of stuff?

And it saves you in in in training time.

Yeah, so that was just one of the reasons, but we we talked about context.

So communications, collaboration and content. There are three areas of our three Mickey Mickey Mouse faces and of course we then have this idea of of managers and all that kind of stuff. But the keyword here is context, so.

The context is about the persona.

So when we start talking about things like baseline governance and about those rules like creating sites, you've certainly added a lot of complexity about those design documents and governance documents.

And of course you also have had a lot of overhead on your administration, so you're you're content about whether it's cheaper to let just.

Everybody have the form. It also means that we now have to have a process every single time we have a site.

Weighted now what you could do again, just so that another another silver nugget and there's not a gold nugget but a silver nugget is.

Of course, you could have the form for people that don't need to approve a form, and people that can just create a team site like managers for example, can do it without the form.

Oh yeah, yeah that as well even easier, yeah?

Actually, I mean, having said that, I don't know whether you can.

Uh, I guess you can. Depending on how you approach the creation of your team sites. So if you use the Microsoft method that says hey you, I want to approve sites so it's kick up a workflow so the button is there, but then the workflow kicks in.

Or of course you do it the other way around, where you give them a button that opens up a form that you then.

Kick the workflow in so you're more in control of it. Then you're able to kind of work out who can and who can't create sites. But yeah, either way around, find a solution that says some personas can and some personas can't.

OK, yeah, absolutely. That's sounds one. Now that we've said it a few times already and it it totally makes sense.

Yeah, yeah, I think so. So what else then what other things do we think about when it comes to comms, collaboration and content? Now you surprised me?

When you described to yes, you did, now now and again. Now again today is one of those days.

I did.



You surprised me when you you said that when it comes to your communications, your emails you have.

Quite a ratio. Your profile of emails is something that you're aware of. I never even think about it.

My Rufio

But yeah, so I was.

I was looking at my email and that actually came from one of my customers. I don't know if I talked about this in in a previous episode.

One of my probably yeah, one of my customers actually said Uhm.

Almost certainly you always talk about your customers.

That everyone in the company has a as an email mailbox, of course, but they are not allowed to from their own personal mailbox.

They're not allowed to email outside of the company, so they're, they're only, uh, they can only email inside of the organisation and.

That makes sense.

Data protection data leakage.

Yeah, exactly, and then they they have like these shared mailboxes function based where they can actually email outside.

Right, so I was that that kind of brought all kinds of emotions in my head and and and thoughts.

Did it? Did it make you cry?

Almost because I I couldn't figure out why you would want to do that, and then at some point I kind of had the epiphany saying, but why do they still need a mail in an actual inbox to do their email if it's only internal, why can't we use teams for that in the future? Now I know they still need an.

It's OK.

An exchange account, of course, otherwise things will fall apart, but.

Why would they have that in their outlook?

And on the basis we talked about having to train people about these applications and adopt them and stuff there's costs associated with it, yeah?

Yeah, exactly so yeah, but but one of the things that I hear from a lot of people in that companies, they're saying I'm I always miss I'm or I'm always wrong in in in which email box or email account that I need to send. So I need to send an email to to an external.

A person and I always get the the email account wrong which I need to send it from, so I I always do that from my own inbox.

And but then I it bounces back because I can't email outside people. So then I need to do that again from the other. Anyway, I'm sorry so.

I was actually looking at what kind of emails do I get? Most of the time? Sorry, go ahead.

I'm just trying to work out which organisation gives people two mailboxes. One they can email things out with the one that they can't.

I know and that's that's my whole.

It blew my mind, so it must have.

Yes, for me as well. So I I got my anger. I got my acceptance I got.

Blown your mind.

All the stages I went through all the stages.

In my head and.

But anyway, well, yes, I can understand. That makes me think OK about my email. I mean it is true.

I often wonder about the value of email, but if you just look at the number of emails that come in and go out, you can see that it's still a valuable tool in in many.

Anyways, yeah, and and absolutely, but then my question is, why would they still need that email inbox or that email account on their outlook if they only can send emails inside of the company, wouldn't it be better to use something else for that? But yeah, I I think so as well, but.

Teams. Yep dejavu. I think I've.

Heard that he is before.

Then again, I was looking at my email inbox just because I've got a number of.

Them for every customer of.

Course and I was actually looking at it and and looking at what kind of.

Emails do I get and of course I got all the enlarged Europeans junk mails which actually no, not that much anymore.

You still get them.

More no, that's because they know that you never you never actually, yeah, yeah, you see the way I lead you into that one there. Perfect setup, perfect setup.

It's too long. Oh no, no.

No no no.

And I was.

Looking at my email and I was actually coming to the conclusion that around 40% is communication.

It's about corporate communication. It's about UM.

Yeah, all kinds.

People letting me know that doesn't isn't this OK cool? I don't need to do anything with that. I don't need to respond to that. I just need to take that in.

Then I've got around 40% of my email that is all notification that is coming from SharePoint or coming from Word or Excel where people are leaving comments and and those are flying in and those are really valuable to me and you had a really good.

Point earlier about asking if if those wouldn't be around collaboration because.

I'm writing documents and now a number of people need to take a look at that document, and when they create a comment, I get a notification of that.

And yes, that might be part of my control freak nature, but that also.

You see killing all my jokes here aren't you? 'cause we've already had this conversation, you just you. Just right now. It's OK, yeah?

Yes, sorry about that.

Pre empting them might just means I need to be smarter. Yeah the problem is that when I use smart jokes you don't understand them 'cause I.

Always bring them down to your level.

Exactly exactly.

But let's let's get this over and done with quickly 'cause you've been rabbeting on here. So what you're saying is that 40% have come.

Yes, oh, I know, I know, said.

Yes, go ahead 40% of notifications and 20% of collaboration which potentially is is a combined one. But what you just said into and and I think that that's quite typical that there is a there is a model of the kind of emails that that you that you receive.

And then of course it depends on what you do to action them. Yeah, so if you're a control freak.

Every time you get a notification email, you probably go to the document to make sure that somebody hasn't ruined your document or doing something else wrong.

With it, or do you just like to know about it? Or do you use them as triggers for your actions?

But either way round there is a response, yeah, but your communications you said there's things that I don't need to do about them.

Yes, so why don't you just put them into the unfocused box and delete them?

I I delete them that that's definitely true, but the problem is.

So what you're saying is you're not acting on them. There may be part of your knowledge that you need to do your job, but then not necessarily, and I think that's that's quite typical.

Yeah, I think.

So that percentage will change, of course, so if I'm a project manager persona, that means.

Trump, right? So I'm a project management persona and then of course the percentages of those emails will be a lot different from me, so I'll end.

Up with a lot.

Of communications, individual communications people community.

Occasions and a lot of emails going. Hey, have you done this and do we need to do that? And I'll be raising things like change requests and you know, approving finances and all.

That kind of.

Stuff, but again, a lot of those will move to collaboration as we start to move in the context of a lot of these.

Messaging just the the point of MS Teams and collaboration is that it reduces the amount of emails that you need to send.

And receive exactly.

But for that.

Project manager instead of asking, have you already done so, and.

So what you actually want to do is you actually want to create a planner plan and write all the tasks down and every time somebody somebody has done a task, you would want to get a notification of that.

You know I wouldn't OK.

Why would I? Why would would I want to do that? So I had insights.

We talk about Viva insights. Here you go. So I had. I looked at my insights the other day and it tells me that I respond to my emails way too quickly.


So it distracts me.

Is that his?

Thing OK OK.

Yeah, there's a thing, it's.

A thing, so you imagine that you get so I don't know how many emails you get in there.

70 emails a day. Let's assume you get 70 emails a day. That's kind of 10.

An hour that's one over.

6 minutes OK. How many things do you do that only takes 6 minutes?

I do, I'm going to rephrase that because I know.

It only takes you 3.

So I'm going to rephrase that a minute.

But if if you're working on a concept report, if you're doing something, it's going to be longer than six.

In it, and So what? What insights was telling me is that I don't give myself enough time to concentrate on doing something properly, because as soon as the email arrives I change my focus.

Yes, you're not doing enough deep focus work.

No, exactly and the whole point of this podcast that we're talking about here is that unless you get the balance right, if that comes collaboration and content by persona, OK?

Yeah, yeah.

And they're all going to be different. You're not going to be able to get the value out of Microsoft 365 that you could do.

You're not going to be able to get the usability or the focus, so until I started working on this, these last three or four weeks, I had baseline governance in my head, which is nothing wrong with that, OK?

Like yeah, we will allow people to create sites or you know, like we will, we will allow people to share content with anybody and everybody or we will.

You know, putting conditional formatting or sorry conditional access, and so I had all those things as general policies, but I started to work out that if somebody wants to get the value out of Microsoft 365, they need to be able to understand the usability.

What they can get value from and what they need to focus on, and so I don't need to give everybody the ability to? Can I have interactive meetings in Microsoft Teams?

So I don't need to have global training, I don't need to, you know, and and a lot of this has come from Viva for me. You know, being able to identify which training courses people need based upon their persona.

New based upon the audience. Based upon what you need to get out of it. When I do the adoption and change the messages that I give will be different to each persona based upon the value they're going to get out of it and that gives them the ability to focus on little unless so.

I don't need to, so I don't need that.

You know, I just don't need that, but I now don't tell them because I've I've already. I'm allowing them to focus on it, changes those constant running changes.

Do I need to send an email out to?

Everybody, no no. Then now I can I see that.

Just just the people that use this.

Those personas.

And I've used personas now about five times in two minutes. I'm feeling faint actually, so just.

Give me a second.

So the downside of all of this is that it makes more work for you and I.

It does, but then again it saves so much work afterwards.

But we'll have left by then. That was somebody else's job, no, no. I ethically, of course, that's not not where we come from here, so we assume that we're right while actually, you and I were only in a bar drinking whiskey. We're always right when.

Yeah, exactly.

You're in a bar. Drinking would give.

That's true, yes. And we had that brilliant brilliant khalyla yeah.

Yeah yeah, let's see. OK, then we've got an it's brother across the island to drink the gnome.

Or two.

So let's assume that we have this kind of matrix scenario. We have our personas. We have the kind of baseline governance for each persona.

The policies that they do it allows those individuals to focus. It gives them the context of what value they will get.

Around content what value they will get around collaboration, what value they will get around communications, 'cause they're all different.

So let's just queue some examples. Yeah, let's try and try and share.

Hey everybody, I hope.

You agree with this because I think there's.

I hope we're provoking a thought or two here.

For those of.

You that are, you know, rolling out Microsoft 365 or even supporting it, or even supporting it two years down the line and every time something changes.

In MS Teams, you sit there and throw it all out. You know go back to your original documents and work out who your personas were and what roles they need and.

People will thank you.

For it, because you send an email out, Microsoft have just rolled out shared channels and this is the value will it would give to you.

And of course, your store clerk will use them as a as an example.

They have no.

Need at all to collaborate with anybody else and use shared channels so they ignore the email.

Yeah, and eventually they start to ignore the emails.

Yeah, because none that you know only one in 10 actually adds value to them. So by having focused usability, I think I've just come up with the title of our new podcast.

That's channel, yeah, if we have that focused usability then that means that when they get that email they will read it because they they.

They perceive that it has value. Let's go back to our store clock, 'cause I think it's interesting. So our manager, we decided from a comms perspective we think follows your model 40% communication.

And sort of notifications and 20% collaboration. Maybe? It's maybe that collaboration is reversed, but let's let's that's an interesting one.

That's in that overlap area of Mike of Masters is, yeah, but uh, store clerk will have a different perspective when they.

Yes, so they they will get lots of communication emails. They will not get that many notifications.

No, they're not. They're not collaborating.

No exactly so. Collaboration will be or the use of teams will be meetings every once in a while. Online meetings, hybrid meetings.

Not org, not arranged by them.

No, and they they.

Won't need to do any presentations, they won't need to share any content. They will need training on how to use this stuff on their mobile.

Phone so then the question is, do they actually need a mailbox?

Chaos mode yes. They need a mailbox and then also they also have Asian are and and and corporate through. Yeah, they'll have personalised content they need delivered and.

Maybe kiosk, yeah for for this communication.

Corporate communication exactly. Yeah yeah.

Yeah, and those notifications will also be yes, we approved your sick leave for your holidays or.

That kind of stuff. Yeah, come to me so you can be fired. You know the the the the important the.

Whatever, yeah exactly.

Yes, exactly so if if they would go, uh, collaboration, that would be, uh, yeah. Intranet Feeva employee experience. We talked about that, yes?

I think so. I think there's a lot to be said, and that's one of my growing areas of.

He's here, do you want another tip and trick? Come on. OK, so you just between you and me, you know that you're going to use the Internet.

Just between you and me, yes.

Yeah, ultimately, but it's never the first thing that kind of gets done. It's always the thing that happens down the line. OK, but that doesn't mean you can't turn on Connexions and use it for all of your project.

Change and adoption communications.

And eventually you and Add all the Internet news and corporate news in it. But when you roll MS Teams out right and you start first, then enable Connexions, but only use it for your adoption and change messages very selfishly so that anybody who connects into MS Teams instantly gets access to all the news.

And all the collaborations based on audience and personas.

That is actually a brilliant idea because I just rolled out the Microsoft learning pathways, for example this week for for my big customer that that I have right now. So learning pathways is something that you can just install from Microsoft.

Excuse me

Uh, it's it's one of the lookbook things actually so.

I've got a meeting tomorrow at 8:30 to do exactly the same thing.

OK, so installing learning pathways only takes you around 15 minutes. Yep, you don't have to write a single line of code in order to do that. You just go to the SharePoint.

Book site and you say learning pathways. OK, you do need to be in a tenant administrator, by the way, but you can just say OK. install that and 50 minutes later it's installed. You got all the Microsoft support documents all there in one easy to use.

This is Viva or is this lulie patterns? Yeah, but.

No no learning pathways, but The thing is I could use I I've I rolled that out and that is going to be my change in adoption side.

With added content, of course my own content will be there as well, but that will be my change in adoption side, but I can put that into the Viva Connexions part and have everyone that already has. Teams now has a one button or one click access to all that.

Tell ya it's ideal boom boom no I I I absolutely get it.

But if you do the Ms learnings as well, you can then set up all of the suggested trainings for all of your different personas.

Yeah, and that's I'm afraid. 2 lines of PowerShell script, but there you go.

OK anyway, but you're.

Rolling MS Teams out anyway for meetings and chat and all that kind of stuff. This is just an extra icon, you know? Yeah, anyway, cool stuff.

So we were basically talking about our store clerk, so our persona of a store clerk and and how they deal with collaboration and collaboration for them is probably about Yammer.

'cause they they will get questions that they need to to have lots and lots of answers to and they were only dealing with published content, so they're not really generating documents or PowerPoint presentations or anything else.

Uh yes yes yeah.

Just procedures and and yeah.

At this point.

And stand up meetings. So by just having that line that perspective that context.

Then I've kind of hofft my work.

Yeah, I I may have upped my an admin a little bit alright, but I've made my admin simpler. Moving forward in making the decisions around future changes, future updates and everything else I can't believe I'm doing this all right. I mean my arguments about personas I do.

Target audience.

Disagree entirely with personas, but I've never really perceived the value of them until I sat down and thought this through in earnest when I started thinking about all right, how do I roll out collaboration?

Well, actually I I don't need to, it just is there, but how do I actually get people to buy into it?

And how do I get people to see the?

Value of it.

That's when I came up with Mickey Mouse.

's ears.

That will be forever.

Mickey mouse's ears. Now, by the way, still a beautiful PowerPoint drawing of nicely laid out circles, one on the other, but now.

Yes, I will be there.

You know Mickey Mouse is awesome.

It's a, it's a good diagram. Yeah, as I said I am gonna steal that, yeah?

Yeah, that's that's pretty pretty neat all right.

So that's.

Focused usability, baseline governance, but the you know it's it's kind of where you go with this kind of stuff.

And then we also we did talk about policies and I'm not sure whether we kind of want to go into that.

Now or not, we might touch on.

It's a big topic that was actually our original topic, but then we just got carried away with personas.

That little bit later.

That's where the idea came from.

Uh, but actually where we came from was thinking about how should our site structure or content structure. How should that look like?

And then we kind of came with the inevitable answer that it depends. But then we were trying to work out.

It depends.

Yeah, but.

On what does it depend? Yeah, and we were trying to create all kinds of rules on which would of course be different for every kind of organisations.

And that's why we couldn't do it. So so for example, we said you can create an Ms team site if the following criteria is met.

You know the content is not, you know, part of the corporate taxonomy. It's temporary in nature, so you would then say yes, you can go ahead and create a team site and then we said, but not everybody needs to do that.

And that led us to this context.

Idea and then that led me to my thinking for the last few weeks around this collaboration and content stuff.

So that's where we came to, so I think it's worth kind of rounding this up a little bit in terms of time. We're at 45 minutes. I think it's it's it's worth. I hope what you have here.

Is that it's impossible to kind of do?

Focused usability or, you know, be able to focus people on the value of this unless you provide that context to be able to see where people find that value for communications, collaboration and content, and it it will be different based upon the kind of tools that people use.

And it will make life easier. So most frontline workers have a certain kind of training that they need, but they don't need to be trained on how to create teams and channels and SharePoint sites and how to use them and when to use them and all that kind of stuff because the bottom.

Mine is. They're they're only going to run certain processes that are based on their role, and they're only going to attend meetings.

They're not going to to make meetings, and at the other end that the at the C level, all right, it's exactly the same. Probably they don't do anything, they just you work.

On the information that they receive and then they, you know, manage the processes around those. Or talk a lot or or innovate. That was something else that we identified as well, isn't it? Was that?

The conclusions we came for was that depending upon the persona depending upon whether they fit into a certain kind of category, so certain personas will be processed based so you know certain personas will be kind of innovation.

Based in that they're generating new content and new ideas, and certain personas will be kind of very structured. So like your project managers and your your communication sales kind of team.

Where their tools and they they tend to fall into those kinds of persona. Those kinds of skill sets and needs and values so you can also bring in that other dimension of, you know, innovation. Does it require comms, collaboration or content? And it's probably stronger on the collaboration.

Whereas your process is probably stronger on the content because I've got documented, you know work spells that that work processes.

Yeah, but there will always.

Be kind of the same kind of documents and the same kind of content, yeah?

Yeah, so I think I think there's more work to do in this area.

Uhm, yeah.

Yeah, so call us.

If you need to have this.

New work no no no.

But what I also seem to think is that Microsoft themselves have worked this out.

Surprise, surprise, you know if we talk about the my content page.

Yes, you know that that if you have not looked at it yet, your tenant almost certainly now has it. But if you go to

Web page, then there's, uh, now an item called my content and I'm constantly being surprised. A lot of it is delve like.

Right, but better in in some ways, but.

You know they they're.

Focused very much on that context of that content.

Now you know that collaboration point, which of course is mixing email and content and and communications so you know you can identify again like in the delve in the my profile pages.

You know content from particular people or people who were.

Put on or attachments from my emails and that kind of.

Stuff, but it's.

Which is really really nice.

It is very nice and we mentioned it earlier. You know you you would click it open, it doesn't open the content it actually gives you that collaboration space.

Yeah, so it opens the context as well. Yeah, yeah.

That's cool, I think. Still neat. I think there's a lot more stuff on here we can do. I think you said earlier about some sessions.

On this, I think there are some sessions on this. I think it's a nice little combination.

But there's a.

Word of warning here, I think that we should not. We should not ignore.

One thing I've been very aware of this last few months really is how complicated everything is getting, and we've had this conversation before.

Our big Microsoft 365 is and how wide it is. You know this is just like a great whiskey. This conversation we've had about personas and the.

Relationship with commerce, collaboration and content is adding a depth that you would not normally consider.

Yes, so you know that goes beyond the survey of what tools do you think you need?

Because it's actually what what collaborative processes do. You need to do, you know. So, for example, let's take the store worker again so they have only published content. But what happens when they realise the published content is out of date?

And that it's now not applicable to resolve the process or problem they do. They don't have the tools or the necessarily knowledge or whatever to actually go back and update that published content. So they need a process that says. How do I update that document?

Yeah, or create a notification to someone that it is out of date.

Yep, and then that needs to be something that a front end worker does. So then when you get to that point in the process, you may need to increase the value, but you're never going to do that from day one.

Because you, so you're you're progressing. Your strategy around how you use this. It's like do I do? I let people create workflows?

From day one.

Do I give them power apps? But you can't really turn it off, but so I just pretend it doesn't exist and I don't tell them about it, you know, and I just monitor people using it.

But you know so. So there's a certain complexity, just like in a wonderful whiskey, just like the one we're going to taste in a little while around all of this, that that requires.

You to do 50% more thinking than you used to do.

I, I believe so, and I know that lots of people, lots of analysts or or functional projects take personas into account, but more of a.

The step that you have to take without actually realising the full width and the full value that you might get from it.

Yeah, like for example here in this case that we might say, OK, let's turn off teams collaboration for a bunch of people because they will never need it. And then.

We don't need to train them on it.

Is the interesting thing. You can't really turn it off for the.

Well, that's not really true. You can because you can create different policies for different people within MS Teams. So then that would give them certain functionality.

Yes, and you can hide it. You can hide it and.

Yep, you can. That is. That is very, very true. That's very true, but it it does. It does mean that you have to have fairly solid processes from an admin perspective. Yes, yeah.

You know a lot of.

You'll probably have to create AAD groups depending on the persona, something like that.

Is quite possibly true, yes?

And the other thing that I was just thinking about is, as you were saying, they it's one of those things that flew in my head and it kind of flew out again and was probably not going to come back.

We'll save that for episode 90.

I just remembered what it was. So when you start looking at your adoption and changing, we will save this for another another time. But the way you approach these personas we know is different.

OK, but they'll also have different responses to when they disagree or when they want to change or their ability not to change the laggards and detractors. And, you know, for example, your store clerks and your front workers will gossip.

About how bad it is or the extra change and all those kinds of things, which is not going to support your adoption programme.

Whereas your managers will kind of say, OK, I may not like this, but hey, this is what I'm going to have to do moving forward. And so you also need to respond differently to those kinds of personas.

Yeah, I'm telling you do it, but.

True, yes, her language needs to change.

Uh, yes, definitely. And the the essence of how you actually explain this.

Yeah, this is.

Quite in depth and we've not given everybody the answers to this because the response is it depends on so many different things.

But our advice is think about the focus of usability of these tools, whether they need to use it, you know the value they'll get from it, because then that sets the desire up. So you're making them aware. But if they see value, you're setting the desire up.

And we've already talked about the training and the knowledge part of all.

Of this, and then you'll get to find out whether you've got this right at the next stage. When you start good in.

The feedback and and finding out whether people really have changed or not.

So there we go, cool.

Anything else you want to add?

Not at the moment. I would say it is time for drink.

I won't disagree with that.

I won't disagree with that. Yeah, so I found a new whiskey shop just down the road from me really Saturday morning.

How many whiskey shops are there?

They're actually quite a lot here, considering that I live in a relatively small village. Yeah, within kind of 10 kilometres I know of.


Four wow four, and this was the best one I've found so far. OK so I have the flavour shop over the road guys.

Thank you, that's a whisky you owe me the flavour shop down the road and eisregen there, but in Ninova do you which you know. Of course individuals, there's a, uh, really, very, very cool shop. They must have had.

Wow, probably as many whiskeys is the Lewis career in Barcelona for sale? Wow they even had a long row.

Well, I actually suggested a long row earlier to a friend who said I've got a friend who's coming over and I want to surprise him with a really nice speed, whiskey and everybody.

Spring bank.

I was saying go, Isla and I was saying no go long row.

Go Spring Rd, go long road go long.

Road that sounds like AT shirt.

Yeah, but they had a long road there. Kind of took the bottle out and said hey, do you have this?

'cause there was so many it would have taken me a long time to go along and they went.

And they went.

We went there and there's one there but it.

Was a 25 year.

Old long way and I thought I don't think I want to do.

OK, no you.

I don't want to hit that, but as soon as I saw this one here, I thought yeah, now is the time to to drink this.

All right, so I'll pour you talk.

You know what outboard you grab the taste notes.

Oh yeah, you'd like to have the tasting notes up, don't you?

Grab give me the glass.

Oh, there we go. Cool so.

What are we?

What are we drinking? We're actually drinking a a well known drink. We've mentioned it before here. I think we might have even tasted tasted the very early 15 year old on early pilot. Yeah, the 16 year old on our on our.

16 year old yes.

Previous podcasts.

So this is probably if you're getting into whiskey. This is probably the 1st.

Beat it, whiskey that you would have.

Drank yes, the one that's in the bars.

It's the one that's in most of the bars. If you're talking about peated whisky.

Yep, it absolutely is. It's the Lagavulin 16 is the one that you will see in the bars and in.

Funny enough, I went out for dinner last night and that was exactly the one that I took, but this is the 8 year old, so the lagavulin 8 year old now under normal circumstances. Of course, the younger the whisky the.

You you tend not to aim for it. You always think that the older the whisky, the better it is and and it is of course a little bit.

Better in in many ways, because what it does is it's more refined and you know it gets softer and all those kinds of things but one marine and I are starting to understand is that they no age. Whiskies actually has a different taste and a different value which is improving upon which is sometimes.

Better than the the older whiskies and and.

Yeah, not always.

For example, if we are talking about Islay whiskies heavily peated whiskies, we talked about the art bag before the 10 year old is beautiful, excellent, awesome, no need to change.

Well, not always.

He's going to mention we beast here it comes.

The we based the five year old is a piece of crap that I don't understand and anyway but this as you said 8 year old which is half of the age as a 16 year old like a villain. 16 for me is the best peated whisky. It's the most well rounded.

Triggers all the boxes and.

Really, I'll mention one thing alright, long row.

Yes, OK, but it it does trigger all the.

Boxes and I was.

It does, yeah.

Very anxious to try out the 8 year old. I was very afraid that it would turn out as the wee Beastie.

Well, let's just just cheque. Very before we jump onto that. I know you got a story.

Your letters.

I'm sorry is that where it came from, so they wanted an anniversary whiskey so that's what they wanted to do and they didn't choose a 25 year.


Old, but they chose an 8 year old, so the so this risk is actually part of what they specifically chose to celebrate.


One of their anniversary's don't ask me which one, 'cause I can't remember, but but they they they the whiskey manufacturers themselves are starting to realise that there's certain kind of value in this. Anyway, this is the 8 year old.

We first tasted it.

In yeah, in lavish Korea, Korea which is still one of the best whiskey bars in the world that I've ever seen.

On our Barcelona.

Then now whiskery.

Yeah, OK, So what are we actually going to see here? So on the nose you're going to get popcorn roast nuts, burnt sugar, which is what you talked about earlier the candied.

Yep, candidness, but what you don't get from that 16 is a very strong smoke.

I do get. I do get quite a.

Lot of smoke.

You do, but not the kind of 16 year old.

Not the artby Gordy yellow frog, kind of. I'll I'll kick you in the nuts, no.

Even the lack of 1 in 16, if you put it like if one in 16 on the table somebody 2 metres away, you can watch their nose.

Is there a fire?

I began so if whenever I pour one in the house here.

My girls would go.

You're drinking that whiskey again, aren't you?

So, so that that smoke on the 60 is hiding so much of the subtleties, which is which is available here.

And it it it is. It's it's much more sweet than it is smoking.

It is yes.

But the smoke is still.

There, but yeah, yeah yeah, no doubt about it, yes.

And you're right, it is his burnt sugar. It's not toffee, it's not got.

That dark nose you talked about it earlier, candid.

Yeah, yeah.

I'd like this a lot as I have to say.

You're going to get taste it. Tell us what the.

Pallets like?

I'll tell you what it should be like.

You should have herrings.

Whoever toasted out you should get some fish, which I don't think is quite true, but but I think that's where the saltiness comes from.

Yeah, the the the the fish is definitely there when you talk about laphroig for example.

But this I I get lots of sugar on the in in the mouth as well.

It's it's a kind of a sweet drink. It's not very oaky.

But it's not a.

Bad sweetness, no. Not at all not.

I I think.

At all, but it's not oaky and and not old.

No, there's none of this kind of sort of bourbon oak. Something through.

It's not bombastic.

It's not bomb basket.

Wow, but it's smoky. I mean that's where that's where the smoke comes in totally. If we're talking about our our, you know tripartite here of our whisky tasting, this is probably one of the.

No, it is, it isn't.

It is smoke, yes doesn't.

Best whiskey is in terms of the three different states of whiskey and how different they are. So the nose is is really quite roasted.

Roasted nuts and sweet. There's no doubt about that. They can did even and then went on the palette. That's when that smoke comes. You know that kind of rich, oaky, smoky kind of stuff with the with the sweet stuff.

The touch, salty and then on the finish. I really quite like this rich delicious smoke. It says ash apples and almonds.

Uhm, I think it's.

Yeah, I, I think it's it's quite true. The finish I can taste it I I don't get the orange which I would normally get out of a 16 year old lagavulin that toasted toasted orange. What are you doing over there?

Causing problems.

Nope, he's putting his water in. See what he's doing now. So I think that the nose, the palate, and the the finish on this whisky is very distinct.

3 stages very clear. Yes, very cool.

But in harmony.

Yeah, definitely sorry. Yes, I don't want to take that away from it, but I think you can tell the difference as you move from one stage.

To the next. Sometimes it's not easy.

Yes. Yes no absolutely absolutely.

His staff.

Adding water does not do wonders to the smell.

We know that every time we put water in the nose, kind of gets dropped down over there.

Gets yeah diluted or it fades away.

Yeah, and or the palette.

On the ballot, actually it does transform it a little bit into a proper 16 year old spices come out.

Does it rain?

Yeah, definitely.

Well knows that you get more candy once.

You drop the water in.

I don't get that I just loose like 90% of the.

Nose so I.

No, I guess.

Get the candy, but that's just me.


But there's a lot more oomph in the taste, yeah?

It's amazing, isn't it? When you dilute it, it actually gets spicier. It's crazy. Yeah, yeah, the oxygen just really emphasises those kind of tastes.

I I I love this yes.

Oh, there's the almonds. Actually, you do get the almonds on the finish. Then with the drop of water in it, I couldn't spot those earlier but that subtle sweetness.

I think we both like this whiskey. We know it's not going to last very long. Not in my house anyway.

No, but with or without water it is. It's a brilliant whiskey.

Here's the difference between the two. The Lagavulin 16 is a brilliant whiskey. Have it as an aparati for even after dinner. Full stop. Whatever you do, it's definitely not to be ignored. But as we're finding the young.

Oh yes, brilliant.

Younger whiskies are coming with a lot more less complex, but a lot more kick in the balls. You know a lot more boost of of different kinds of flavours, a lot more depth to them, not complexity, but a lot more depth to them. And this is what Lagavulin 8 does for me. When I first tasted it in Barcelona.

I thought a.

Lot of body you know a lot of yeah a lot of nice it is without. Without the complex it's a little bit like the difference between a champagne and a vintage champagne.

You know that vintage champagne will be lighter and and and I are, but maybe depending on what kind of whiskey you can choose.

Cuz I want a whiskey with lot of body. Go for the Lagavulin 8 I want a whiskey with more complexity. Go for the 16 except the 16 will hide a lot of those subtleties with the just smoke that comes out of it.

True, yes.

Where does that smoke come from, I wonder?

Well, I guess it's the timing of the maturation. So after eight years the smoke a lot of it is in the oakiness of the barrel is it's not in the spirit.

It is of course it stays longer in the barrel than that stuff is put back into the spirit and time.

Yeah, you said that a few times, but I don't know if that actually if that is actually how it works.

I know you've got the story about your exactly and but but I I find it hard to believe that the the smoke part of the taste would actually go somewhere else.

22 year old Kumari a.

As the taste itself.

Well, what is what is?

It oh listen, this is.

Ah anyway, yes it is, but it but it's.


About the molecules, isn't it inside the drink and so they go in and out of the wood and that's the way it's supposed to work?

'cause I read it on Google and Google.

Is always true.

Now I actually heard.

It from John Cashew as as part of that process.

But yeah, it's worth looking up, but like a maturation process, of course, is what?

Makes our.

Whiskey of course, and they don't understand it fully. Yeah, so they're the mysteries of the whiskey.


All right, so time to go. My head is actually starting to spin a little bit and we.


Were quite nice, I enjoyed that.

Yeah, focused usability.

Interesting one, I don't think we're going to finish this, so we've got more.

Conversations on this.

Yeah, so key messages here for you guys is, you know, think about those personas. This is Steve Dalby admitting that you need to think about your personas and.

How far we've come.

Listen, we're allowed Nuggets, so am I. But you know it's part of this process, but but save yourself time and be very specific about you know what value these personas are going to get and then.

Yes yes yes.

Plan your workload accordingly. You know if they're not going to get a lot of value over MS Teams, then you know.

Identify the other values in SharePoint sites. It's also a tool that says that you you really need to have as many applications live as possible, because if you just go with and focus on MS Teams.

There's a very good chance there's little value in it for some of your personas because they need the share point sites or the permanent storage of documents as opposed to the collaboration we've just made your life more difficult. People we do apologise.

Yeah, good.

But more precise.

With a better a better end.

That's quality.

Result, yeah, better end result, which is all we're trying to do all.

Right, great podcast.

Let's wrap up.

Let's wrap up. I think we just have.

We do, we just have wrapped up, yeah.

We just have alright cool that's it for us that's.

Yeah, I think we can say.

It for me.

Goodbye, Ciao.

See you guys.

We are not millennials, we are the true.

Is maybe more than my name?

Maturing the business like whiskey and a barrel.