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THE podcast for navigating all things midlife with honesty, humor, and heart
Heidi (00:12)
welcome to the Evolving Together podcast. I am your host, Heidi Sexton, and this is the place where we have the real and sometimes difficult conversations about what really happens in midlife. we go deeper into the emotional work that's necessary during these transitions.
And I know that the term doing the work sometimes is overused, but that's exactly what's required when we start off in one place and we are headed towards what we want and then the road has detours and roadblocks and we end up somewhere else, somewhere we completely do not want to be, but it's often where we are supposed to be. And it's an opportunity to grow and evolve into who we are meant to become.
it does not always mean that it's going to be easy. Sometimes it's extremely painful and difficult. And this is true for those desiring to have a baby. And trying to do everything to conceive and then that window closes. And the work and the healing, the renewal, to move forward is different for everyone, but it's also universal for those in the situation. And I feel like this is one of those conversations that
happens behind closed doors and I want to be able to talk about it more openly because a lot of people go through this. So my guest today, Ashley Anderson, found herself in this place. She is the founder of Functional Fitness in Pas Christian, Mississippi. not only is she a business owner who happens to also be a personal physical trainer and functional nutritional therapist, she also holds a degree
in movement and sports science from Purdue puts a focus on healing the gut, your microbiome, and balancing hormones. She is also currently participating in the Active Life Professional Mentorship Program. And I wanna say thank you so much, Ashley, for being open to coming on again. You were on before and
Ashley (02:06)
Of course.
Heidi (02:07)
And you're gonna be on again. I mean you're you're repeat offender. No, you're a no no, you're a a repeating guest and I I love that because then people get to know you even even more. But so this obviously is a very personal journey. So
Ashley (02:25)
Now I'm
gonna promise I I might tear up. Like I'm gonna try really hard. I feel like I'm in a good
Heidi (02:29)
It's okay.
Ashley (02:29)
spot. But it is emotional, but
As someone who gets flooded with this stuff on social media, and I will say it's like more openly talked about now than it has ever been. but a lot of people only talk about the journey that's really hard and getting there, and then at the end they have this magical baby, and they did all of this hard work. But I think sometimes we don't see the end of you've done all this hard work, and at the very end, you still don't have a baby. So
like
Heidi (02:54)
Right.
Ashley (02:55)
there and there's life after it, I promise. It's like there is. It just it takes a lot to get there.
Heidi (03:01)
Yeah. And
I wanna talk about both because I I've personally and if you get teared up, it's okay. I've already been crying this morning because I I had a guest on. We were talking about dementia and caregiving and we were both bawling our eyes out. she was the director of technology for the Gulfport School District for fifteen years and she's tough. I mean she's a she's a woman in tech. She's a black woman, so she has she's had to prove herself over and over and
And I was so impressed that she was able to cry and she said, she told somebody one time, don't think these tears are a sign of weakness. And I said, Yes. I love that. And I thought that is so true. It's actually, I think, is t a sign of strength because you you are able to you decide. Like you're deciding I am going to allow myself to feel these things. And I think that
Ashley (03:46)
I mean
Heidi (03:47)
is huge.
Ashley (03:47)
Emotion is a big
part of it and I think holding some of that in in a in a hard conversation, like you actually can be doing more damage just by like covering it up and blocking it and pretending you're okay. my friends would know I have been sensitive to being told people are pregnant, being invited to a baby shower, like things like sometimes going to your kid's birthday, if it hits at the right time that it's more challenging. there are times that it is hard. It doesn't mean I don't love you, it doesn't mean I don't support you, it doesn't mean I'm not happy for you. But sometimes
your own sadness and your own like disappointments can cloud all of that. It's like a rainy day. you're gonna have you're going to have them, but it's going to go away and you can bring that in. And I am relatively a pretty positive person. That's like I'm almost always laughing. I'm having a good time. that is just my general personality but I am also human and I'm allowed to experience the whole range of emotions that I encourage everybody else to have too.
Heidi (04:38)
Yeah. And I
I I think I've become more sensitive to people who have not been able to conceive and like you said, you get to the end of the journey and there is no baby because I've I've I have friends who have been on both sides of it and and so I'm much more sensitive to say, Do you want to participate in a baby shower? Or, you know, and I I
Ashley (05:02)
I've been told my friends have come over to my house to tell me one-on-one. I they have said they invite me to baby showers and I'll say, hey, I'm I'm planning on coming, but I I don't know how I'm gonna feel. And like during infertility, it was, well, what if I thought I was like, man, maybe this is the month that I'm pregnant, and then it didn't happen in this the day of the baby shower. Like, I can't go. Like, I just emotionally like this is about you, and if I am an emotional mess about me, it's not about me. Like, your day's about you.
You and I'm sorry, I want it to be about you, and by me not being there, that's my best way to make the day about you.
Heidi (05:39)
Right,
right. And I think that's really so important that you honor that about yourself and you don't push through, you know, because you know that's not what's best for you or them, you know, as a friend. And
Ashley (05:51)
Exactly, exactly.
Heidi (05:52)
I think that I would say probably in the past before th these kind of conversations were were being had
people probably did that. They suffered alone and it's I I know it's a lonely journey. I mean it's you and your partner if you even have a partner. So I mean I know people that have gone through this process that decided to do it on their own.
Ashley (06:13)
Yeah.
Heidi (06:15)
and unfortunately did did not conceive, you know, through donors and things like that. and some who have, but
Ashley (06:22)
And
sometimes your significant other is male, and his emotional sharing is significantly lower. So sometimes you hold stuff back my husband is actually very emotionally intelligent. I'm very lucky there, but like sometimes it's like he doesn't know how to express how he feels, and I feel like I'm being too emotional, and he is just he's just way more calm and steady than I am, just in general. Like I'm pretty high
Heidi (06:43)
Right.
Ashley (06:43)
strung, I'm kinda go go go, and he just seems like this nice, even calm. And I feel like I'm
putting all of this on him too. So sometimes like there is still those struggles. And this is where like and we can have a whole talk about like having a community of people to talk to, like having a therapist, having friends that understand, or maybe people in your life that are at different stages. Like I I have seven aunts and I would tell you only like two of them have kids. So like I have people in my life that have lived a life
without children, some of them have wanted them and haven't gotten them or the life didn't work out that way. I have an aunt and uncle who got married and they chose to never have kids. So like their life looks different because from the beginning that was their choice. And at some point I will tell everybody like it came down to my choice to keep trying or my choice to stop trying. And emotionally and where we were and financially because there is a big cost that goes to it. It was we looked at each other and said, how much more are we willing to do? And it's not just
Willing to spend and that kind of stuff. It's how many more months do we want to feel like this? How many more months do you want to do this? And then my all time favorite is asking if we're going to adopt from there. Adoption can be just as fun of a journey and challenging, and all of that as fertility. Like you can think you're getting a child and lose that, and then you could even potentially have the child and still lose the child. Like, there is a lot that goes into that, and we didn't we chose not to go that route. but there is it's not as
simple as like television makes it out to seem.
Heidi (08:15)
Right, right.
And and you touched on something about your partner because I would love to have a guy on who is willing to talk about watching their partner go through it. Or or a or a female spouse. I but that I think the difference is if it's a same sex couple and they're well, it it's gonna be different for same sex men and same sex women. So that's a those are like those are like two other conversations
that I would
Ashley (08:39)
Yep.
Heidi (08:40)
love to have. In fact, if anyone's listening and they wanna
Come on, I would love that because there's so many different perspectives because you can have the most emotionally intelligent spouse, it's not his body. It's it's like he can't possibly know what you're going through in your body, which adds another whole layer. So it's they might want to hold space for you and all that. we all experience things so differently. And so and and I think I I kind of would think that guys feel kind of helpless.
Because it's not their body, so I would love their
Ashley (09:12)
Like
Heidi (09:13)
perspective on it too. Or or any couple that's going through like in vitro or things like that.
Ashley (09:16)
Well, it's like you're
on an island, but you will still kind of feel like he can only handle so much. our islands might touch, but they're not the same island. Like it's a very weird situation because like as a female, my body is going through everything that needs to happen. But like he just has to participate. Like, it's a fun ride, but like once the ride's over, that's like really the end. Like
Heidi (09:40)
Yeah.
Ashley (09:41)
and it's it's kind of one of those it's it's emotionally draining on both of you. There's no way
that you that only one person feels it. Because especially when you both wanna have children. Like, my husband wanted to have kids just as bad as I did. And it just didn't work out that way. Like and here we are.
Heidi (10:01)
Right.
Yeah. When so when you how long have you been married?
Ashley (10:05)
We have been married for four years. We have been together for 11. we had started dating before I was 30. I mean, if anyone needs to know, I'm 39 now. there was the there was a point where I was like, I don't, I have been married before, and I was like, I don't need to be married to have kids, but I want to have kids and I'm gonna be 30. So we did the we're not trying if it happened, it happened, it'd be okay. and then we were living in Minnesota. It's 2018. No, this would have been 2019, and then we had like
started doing all the fertility stuff in 2019.
into twenty twenty and then COVID happened and we moved to Mississippi and then we had to start all over at the beginning with a new doctor. So we had to do all
of the other stuff. I was diagnosed with endometriosis in
2010 So the likelihood for me to have fertility challenges is high. I had a
surgery back then. so the doctors were only looking at me. Like I'm the only possible problem in this equation.
Get a sperm test before you do 18 million tests. It's so easy to get a sperm test for it not to potentially be you. Like,
so I had done all
Heidi (11:10)
Right. Yes.
Ashley (11:11)
of this stuff. So in 2022, I had another endometriosis surgery. They went in, they did a whole cleanup, they did all of this stuff. I had all of the most awful tests you could have. the one where they inject the dye in, but they don't inject dye anymore. They used they compared it to like a sparkling water. The most painful test I've had in my entire life. I have had knee surgery.
I have had two laparoscopic surgeries. I have plate spores. I have gotten hurt. This was the worst thing I've ever done in my whole life.
to this day it scars me. It made me so sick. They inject
dyes to see if your fallopian tubes are open.
Heidi (11:48)
wow.
Ashley (11:48)
Yeah, so it used to be dye to see it and now they do. It's like a water based substant. But it made me it made
Heidi (11:53)
Okay. Wow. Hmm.
Ashley (11:54)
me super sick. And I my husband didn't go with me to this trip because I was seeing a fertility endometriosis specialist in Jacksonville, Florida. And I'm like, there's no reason you should need to go. Like this will be so simple for me. it was bad. I have regrets. It happened. I learned lived and learned. Now he gets to go to every medical appointment. I don't go by myself because like, what if your reaction's bad? so
I had all of this done, and then and they're you're all good. Long story short, he ended up having a sperm test, and like it just took forever to get you there. And it's like, let's start at the lowest hanging fruit. man, that's kind of a funny pun intended. I didn't I didn't even get there, but there you go, guys. but
Heidi (12:33)
But
Ashley (12:34)
but
Order of operation, if when you talk to people and like that should have been done first. And it like literally the last thing they did. this whole thing, when did it officially start, I would probably say like 2017, it was we were not actively protecting pregnancy. Did we start tracking cycles and that no, but I was always pretty regular, so I always had a pretty good idea. but here we are, so we're talking like 10 years ago.
And then it's so it is a long time. And for some people, they don't wait that long and they like I could have been pushier, but like I had just moved and it was still COVID while I was living in Mississippi. It was still COVID, so you have to get a new primary care physician there's a whole bunch of things to kind of get you there. and then when I saw an Obi here, they were like, well, you need to have another surgery before you really want to try fertility stuff. And I was like, Yep, I'm gonna let a professional cut into me. So I picked someone who is the for there's a thing called Nancy's Nook and
It is all top tier endometriosis providers. So this is what they specialize in. one in ten women are diagnosed with endometriosis, but it is super undiagnosed, and the only way to get diagnosed in this day and age is to have exploratory surgery. And then they clean
Heidi (13:39)
Fun. What fun.
Ashley (13:41)
it out, and then they clean it out. So, but if you think you might have it or the doctor diagnosed you it you haven't been diagnosed until they've actually removed any of it. So, and it does come back and it can affect you for the rest of your life. So,
it is a very long process, and you can decide how fast and how slow you want it to go.
Heidi (14:01)
I know that that is a very common diagnosis and I know somebody who had gone through a lot of fertility treatments and she said, This is my last my last effort. I'm gonna go she found some doctor in Florida, I think,
Ashley (14:15)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (14:16)
and she was able to conceive after. But she had had some other surgery before and I just remember just feeling so nervous for her because I thought she's getting her hopes up again.
You know, and and I have had friends
Ashley (14:27)
Yes and
Heidi (14:29)
go through, you know, so many miscarriages and then the in vitro and and i it's just it's heartbreaking and I I I can't really say anything other than I love you, you know, I'm sor and I'm sorry, you know. It's like
Ashley (14:39)
Yeah, yeah. So
exactly. And it's and really that that is all. Th that like there doesn't need to be any more. I I would say like for a lot of people and everyone's different, don't say, Well, you're still gonna like you're gonna have a baby. You're gonna be able to do like there's no guarantees. Like,
Heidi (14:56)
Yeah. Yeah.
Ashley (14:58)
and sometimes I like to think like there's a reason that God made this choice for me.
my dad is one of ten. I have seven aunts. I have really great relationships with them. A lot of them don't have kids. They they did spectacular things with me throughout my life. I have wonderful memories of experiences I had with them because they didn't have their own kids. And while I hate that for them, they gave me a lot. and I like Zach and I talk about this all the time, that we can be that person for my brother's kids and my sister-in-law's kids. Like, and we do. We keep my nephews for a week in the summer because they're when they're double digits, they come and they get a whole week to themselves.
Like we can give them cool gifts because we don't have kids to spend a bunch of
Heidi (15:34)
Yeah.
Ashley (15:35)
money on. We can give that stuff to them. so like when like a door closes, a window opens, and I don't know if a window really opens in that, it's just instead of closing ourselves off that this is it, there was a reason that this happened. and like what is the reason? Okay, well, my reason is is maybe that my you know, I wouldn't be able to run my business the way that I do if I had kids. I could not walk into the gym at
5 30 in the morning and walk out of it at 6 p.m. some days. And not I don't do that every day, but as a business owner, I'm here. I like to be here, I like to get engaged with my members, and I know having a child would take away from that. If I wouldn't do it altogether. So maybe my purpose is to provide better for my community and to give people a place of community for them to build relationships and continue with their health and longevity for the rest of their life. Maybe my job is to teach the next generation of trainers to do what I do and do it as well and do it faster. I can teach them how to be better faster.
Faster than it took me over years and years and years to do it on my own. I mean, I have had great mentors and peers and spouse, like all of that stuff throughout my life, but like I can I give them the director path to be successful for years to come. So, like, there are, you know, be there for my nieces and nephews. Like, I can do those things because that's where my focus can be. Also, my husband, he's a business owner. He can work 10, 12 hour days. And I'm not asking him if he needs to come home because I'm at work too, and it's not,
we
Heidi (16:58)
Yeah.
Ashley (16:59)
don't have to take away from
other stuff that we like and we enjoy
you have to have a different outlook on it. it took us a long time to get there, and it's hard because no one wants to be the person that says, I can't do this anymore. Like
Heidi (17:11)
Right. And and
I yeah, like that's
Ashley (17:13)
And that like
there's a constant check-in. Like, how are you feeling about this? How are you feeling about this? And it really I knew my husband w like, okay, so I had a procedure. He ended up having to have a procedure as well on
And they were like, okay, these are the other options. Both included more surgeries. And it just became to the point where we're like, how much more do we want to put our bodies through? And these are, you know, 37-year-old bodies, not 27-year-old bodies. And maybe like, I'm not saying you have to make these decisions quick because, you know, you're like wherever you are, but
It came down to how much more do we want to do? And then it it's well, you know, we're gonna be 40, and do you wanna have a 20-year-old at sixty? Like it changes your whole life and it financially can change your whole life. Cause like I just I think like guys at some
Heidi (17:58)
Ha ha yes.
Ashley (18:01)
point like we have to be honest. Like, if I had a twenty thousand dollar surgery and my husband had a twenty thousand dollar surgery, we're at forty thousand dollars.
Well we need to have another surgery and another surgery. So now are we at eighty thousand dollars. And then just like the beginning of of IVF style treatments is like forty to fifty thousand dollars. And guys,
Heidi (18:21)
It's unbelievably expensive.
Ashley (18:22)
let's be real, I don't have like I don't have that kind of money, just be paying cash for this stuff as it comes up. Like and it's not covered by insurance.
I mean you can get cash pay discounts, so maybe it's gonna be less than that. But like we're still talking about thousands of dollars that you're gonna have to pay over time to make payments on. Cause let's be real, we live in the real world. Like I would have to make payments on this. How many years am I gonna have to pay payments? And then then that's not even we're not even at IVF yet. And now what if
Heidi (18:48)
Right.
Ashley (18:48)
the first time doesn't work and you gotta do a second time? Or they have to do another retrieval and like it's kinda it sounds so bad, but it's like a nickel and dime. It's like five thousand dollars for another retrieval,
Heidi (18:57)
Yeah.
Ashley (18:57)
and how many eggs do they grab? And like
There's a lot to it. So it became it came a point of
Heidi (19:01)
Yeah. It's not yeah. It's not that simple
it's not so simple as like, well we're just gonna go through the process and it doesn't matter what it costs because the reality is there is a financial burden
Ashley (19:11)
And then it's the financial
burden of if I spend all of this money and I have a child at the end, I still have to financially provide a lifestyle that I would like my child to live.
Heidi (19:23)
Yes. And they're expensive.
They're
so expensive.
Ashley (19:24)
Like, I mean, like, there's no way around that. Like, you can do a lot
of things to pr to make them less expensive. And like, obviously, parents go without and they go with less and their kids, they provide for their kids and they have beautiful lives. And I d like, I'm happy to give up those things to have that. I would have been happy to give up those things to have that opportunity. But like at some point, like you just have to go. Like, there's no guarantee. So we could spend another forty thousand dollars or another ninety thousand dollars. And there has to be like I I hate to say it, there has to be some number that you're like
this is when it's enough. for me it was never it never became an actual money thing. It became the emotional toll it was taking on myself every month of the feeling like I'm let down.
Also, I had my last surgery in 2022. Every month since that surgery, my periods have progressively been worse. I compare them to back to the days when I first got my period when they were I was always sick when I got it. I couldn't go to school the first day, I would throw up, I would get migraines, and like migraines, like I can't do anything, like I gotta sit in dark room. And now they're getting more and more like this. And here I am getting closer and closer to 40. That also means like, yes, there's some other things that could be more challenging for me. Lucky I'm very I'm in good shape, I take good.
Care of my health and guys, I have done everything to try and have a baby. but
it became this point: like, here I am almost 30, I have these miserable periods. How many more periods do I want to have trying to have a baby? I don't
We have to have another surgery, you have to have another surgery, you have to do IVF. Like this can be a lot more periods. And this is
Heidi (20:55)
Yeah.
Ashley (20:56)
a lot of really great time in my life for me to be miserable and sitting there. And that's what it came down to. After November,
Heidi (21:02)
Yeah.
Ashley (21:03)
I never have to have another period in my life. And sadly enough, I am looking forward to a hysterectomy. That was a whole nother medical conversation.
Heidi (21:08)
wow, okay.
Ashley (21:10)
And like because of the endometriosis, is I finally decided that I'm going to have a hysterectomy. I
Heidi (21:15)
Wow.
Ashley (21:15)
sometimes your own health has to be that priority. Like because
Heidi (21:18)
Mm-hmm.
Ashley (21:18)
my body has been going through the ringer to manage my hormones and do all of this stuff because endometriosis is typically a high estrogen. but this could be in ratio to progesterone or like overall high. but my estrogen has been high, so managing my hormones is also an obstacle every single month. My periods are terrible, I feel awful, like my migraines, just pick some random stuff, fatigue. I get all of those symptoms, they're all part of endo, where you look completely healthy.
And you your body doesn't believe that, so like you might look great, but you feel miserable, and that is a really hard thing to explain. So I decided to opt to go this way. So I know that I have a couple more times, and then I get to do things. Like,
Heidi (21:58)
Yeah.
Ashley (21:58)
not that having a child is holding you back, but like this limbo that you're in actually
Heidi (22:02)
Mm.
Ashley (22:02)
does hold you back from living your life. You
Heidi (22:04)
Yes.
Ashley (22:05)
don't want to travel, like, or you can't travel because what if you're ovulating and you have to go to the clinic and like so you can't go on vacation? Not that I don't even know if you could afford.
Vacation,
but like you can't go on vacation because you need to be there to get an implant if you're ovulating, so like you can't move, like you need to be close enough to the clinic. Like, it there's a lot of things like moving pieces that I don't think we always discuss in it, but like it became the okay, hey, we're decided not to do it. Okay, I'm gonna take this next step, and now this next step kind of provides me like I should feel better more days of the month, I should have more energy, it should improve how I feel, and like your health is really when it comes down to it.
the most important thing and your responsibility. So if
Heidi (22:45)
Yeah.
Ashley (22:45)
you are a female and you're trying and you're trying and your health is deteriorating because of this, especially with like the hormone part of it, which can make it very, very hard, especially if you're doing IVF and you're doing a lot of hormones,
Heidi (22:57)
Yeah.
Ashley (22:58)
It can be, it could be one, maybe you need a break, or two, maybe it's it's okay to close the door. And this is 100% where I say you need a therapist to talk to you. You need someone in your church to talk to. There are groups of people that have been through this. And I will promise you I was on TikTok and I've seen a million people talking about the people who choose not to have kids.
They talk about the people that have done all of this stuff and they have kids, but there is no space for the people who have not chosen but are childless. And
Heidi (23:27)
Yeah.
Ashley (23:28)
I I'm seeing more of it on TikTok, which is really funny that we're talking today that like it's been on my feed for the last like week. I'm like, this is so great. It's like perfectly. But there are people that are going through it, have gone through it, we have been there, we know what it feels like to not get the happy ending at the end, but it's not that happy ending. It just means your book has more chapters left in it.
Heidi (23:47)
Right,
right. And you're
Ashley (23:47)
Not you're not just
opening a new book with a baby and now it's a new story and it has them included in it. Your book, that is not your the end. There's still more pages. Keep flipping them. And you can write them to be whatever you want them to be.
Heidi (23:57)
Hundred percent. Yeah. I
I think we always wanna know what's coming next, you know, we wanna plan for the next thing and and but we really don't know and and we don't like your clients love you, you know. And I think of they do. And I think of, people who are now in their like sixties and seventies and they've they either chose not to have children or they just never had them for one reason or another.
And they all talk about that their purpose, and they can look back now, you know, and say, Well, my purpose wasn't to do that. It was to to be able to give more to whatever their mission was or whatever they believed in. And they said, And now I can't even imagine what my life would have been like had I had children. Because the other thing that people don't really talk about, and this could be another whole episode, is that
Children are wonderful. You know, I love my three kids. I'm I am so grateful. yes, they're ridiculously expensive, I gave up a lot. Like, I mean, we didn't have a lot of stuff growing up. they didn't have a lot. And, you know, sometimes I'll hear it from one of my children. He's like, Well, you know, I go to school with all these people, you know, their their families give them money for this and that. I was like, Well, that just makes me feel like shit because I haven't been able to do that and anyway,
The financial part of aside and all that, it changes everything and it's not all good. I don't like this whole like, you know, it's the most wonderful thing. No, sometimes it really sucks. It sucks because it is a literal tearing away heartbreak, these little micro heartbreaks, the rest of your life. And that's something that we don't talk about. And it's like some people could say, Well, yeah, but at least you had the opportunity to have the kids. It's like both can be true.
It's not in w I wouldn't change it, but it's like I also recognize that there are things that I could not do because of having children.
Ashley (25:47)
to mourn the fact that I did not have children, but also be happy that I don't have children. Like, and I
Heidi (25:53)
Yes.
Ashley (25:54)
like I say this in the nicest sense. Guys, I I wanna pretend like I sleep in on the weekends, but like, I I kind of I I sleep in for myself, like, but no one's waking me up.
Heidi (26:05)
Right.
Ashley (26:05)
I don't have to be home for nap time and I could stay on the boat for twelve hours a day and I can crap. I can decide in one week that I want to fly to Vegas and the only person I'm telling is my husband. I don't
Heidi (26:19)
Right, right.
Ashley (26:20)
have to make sure the kids have pickup and drop off. I need to make sure my dogs have someone that someone's gonna feed them dinner, but like it is not the same. there's a lot more freedom and I will say that maybe
This would be a very devastating loss to me, maybe at twenty-eight. But at making this decision at at closer to 40 is was probably significantly easier, or knowing at this point like it just wasn't going to work. because I am independent and I do have a lot of freedoms and I can just take off and do this stuff. And I obviously like your kids are portable, you can pack them up and take them with you. like so yes, that is still an opportunity for people, but like I don't I don't know any different
I don't need to wonder when my kids move out, who am I gonna be? This is who I am, and I can continue to make that choice without someone else's life maybe d depicting that. Like, and like I said, like maybe I wouldn't be able to work like I do, or maybe I wouldn't work because I would like my hours don't and my husband hours together don't work for that. So then you raise a child for 18 years, and now you have to find out who you are independently of them, and you need to find out who you are in your relationship again. And that can be very, very
Hard for people. So my hard and that hard are gonna be very different. Me and my husband have to figure out how to just like each other for the next however many years. And but there's not another person. And you know, a lot of women get lost into raising their kids and they forget who they are and they get to and great, you'll have a rediscovery, and that will be cool, and I will cheer you on wherever you're at for your rediscovery, and I might have one too, but mine is gonna be different because we live different lives, and like that is completely okay.
there's not a set path. It doesn't have to be we go through school, we go to college, we get married, we have kids, our kids grow up. Like, like that doesn't have to be the only path. I mean, there's so many
Heidi (28:13)
No, no.
Ashley (28:14)
options. we made the choice like, hey, we're kind of done doing this and how do we feel with it? How do we sit with it? We talk to a lot of other people about it.
And you want to know what at the end of the day? Did I cry? Does it make me sad sometimes? Yes. my gosh, yes. I could still cry about it some days. But I will say that I'm very happy with my life. I'm very happy with
Heidi (28:33)
Yeah.
Ashley (28:33)
the choices that I made. I'm very happy that I get to do what I love every day. And maybe like that can be your awakening if you're someone that's waiting to have kids and it's just not happening for you. Like go out and instead of thinking like I have to have this job, find out a job that you love and you want to wake up and do every day for the next however many years you gotta do it. I
I
am so grateful in so many aspects. I have wonderful people in my life. I have a very, very supportive community. My husband is great. Like I get to have those. But I also know that like because of this and because me and my husband spent so much time talking about it and having those conversations that were hard.
that we can come out to the other side because I know that if you aren't having those conversations with your significant other and this doesn't happen, your relationship can go another way. So like so like like whether it
Heidi (29:17)
it won't last. It won't yeah. It won't last.
Ashley (29:21)
could it might not last if you have kids, it might last if you do have kids. Like it doesn't matter, but like this is where the communication aspect is so important in your relationship. you know I like go to therapy. And if your spouse doesn't want to go, like make them. Like if this is gonna be something
Heidi (29:35)
Right.
Ashley (29:36)
that's gonna be
deterrent to you like and and that's the other thing like at 40 years old I'm keeping him no matter what I do not want to find another like there is no way in the world that I would ever date again as
I like to tell him I'm never picking up anybody else's socks
Heidi (29:51)
It's funny. I look back, the last twenty thirty f years of my life. I'm like, I didn't know I was gonna end up, getting divorced and getting remarried and and all the things and you just don't know what the future holds I think you're really spot on with with, the therapy and and being able to have the conversation because
You have to be able to have those conversations whether you are able to conceive and have children because it does not get any easier. It gets exponentially more difficult because how are you raised and your own expectations and theirs and it it can get so messy and if you're not talking about it when you're trying to conceive or you're even thinking about it,
Ashley (30:27)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi (30:28)
y you're not gonna make it. And you're not and if you do, I say make it, stay together,
Ashley (30:32)
Yeah.
Heidi (30:33)
the the kids are gonna be
F'd up because it it
Ashley (30:35)
Yeah.
Heidi (30:37)
filters down to them. So it's n I'm not saying you should only have kids
Ashley (30:39)
Yeah.
Heidi (30:40)
if everything's all perfect, but I'm saying you have to have that foundation for any relationship to be healthy and that and then it just extends on. So
Ashley (30:48)
Well,
and that's why I'm very happy to like I'm happy to talk about it and answer people's questions and anyone could reach out and ask me about it because for some people this is still a very sensitive topic and they are still working through it and they might be working through it for the rest of their life. I
have been in a very good spot for a a time like I knew that this could be an outcome and I was told by people it's gonna happen like just this needs to happen I had a client tell me one time that if I didn't have tattoos maybe God would give me a baby like I have you guys
Heidi (31:18)
shut up.
Ashley (31:19)
I have literally heard some things in my day from people things people have said to me this will happen this will happen like and I knew at the end there are two outcomes I could have a baby or I could not have a baby and
Because that is literally the option for whatever way. If I don't have a baby, what do I want my life to look like?
I didn't plan for it, but I knew what those things could look like if I made that choice. If that became the way that we went. And like you could fill that with so many things. Well, if I don't have kids, I can travel a bunch. I love to travel. It's not something my husband is overly interested in doing. well, I'll just find friends to go with. Do you know what I found? Friends I can go with. I just went to Vegas with my sister and my sister-in-law. I you know, like you just can find things to do. I can own my own.
business
and this is what I want it to look like. And let's be real, I already have another business idea. I just need to get my husband on board with it. Like, but those, if I there would be no second business if there was a baby, there'd barely be a first business. So like there are so many things that you could do.
Heidi (32:21)
Yeah. There's and
there's there's not there's not room for everything. And that's th that's
Ashley (32:24)
Well and
Heidi (32:25)
that myth of like, you can have it all. Maybe, but certainly not all and no,
Ashley (32:29)
I don't even think you want it all.
Heidi (32:31)
yeah, exactly. Good that's a good point. And and you don't want it all at once anyway. I wasn't sure that I w wanted to have kids for
very long time because I just I saw my parents dysfunction and they divorced and I was a child of divorce and I thought I don't want to ever go through that and long story. But I ended up, you know, having three and and very grateful. But I also really had in my mind a vision of not having children and, you know, the opportunities that it does open. I hear this not to me so much, but they'll say, Well who's gonna take care of you when you get old? I'm like
Well first of all, there's no guarantee anyone's kid is gonna take care of their parent. Let me just say that. Because
Ashley (33:13)
you Henry.
Heidi (33:14)
Yeah.
Ashley (33:14)
I have already
I've already begged, borrowed, and invested in that. He's gonna be 10
Heidi (33:18)
Beautiful.
Ashley (33:19)
next year. That is that is what I'm aiming for. That is who I'm committing to. everyone knows this is the running joke. Like we we say this all the time.
Heidi (33:24)
I love that.
Ashley (33:25)
but here, as someone who has no kids, well, you have to financially prepare that you are going to have to be somewhere, even though even if you have kids, you should never put that
Heidi (33:34)
Right.
Ashley (33:35)
drain on them. And they might want you. Like, I will take my in-laws. I'm more than happy to take my in-laws.
I'm more like my parents, like there is a place for them. But if you have if they have dementia and I can't take care of them, like because that is very hard, there should be a plan that there is a place for you to go. Because there's not a guarantee that you're not gonna end with end up with Alzheimer's or Perkinson's and like that is a very, very hard thing for your ha family to handle. so like you should plan that someone professional is going to take care of you and you should be really nice to your kids and make sure they put you in the best place. I mean, just saying. because if you
Heidi (34:09)
Yeah. No, it's true. I mean
Ashley (34:11)
know what's going on. We have all the control.
Heidi (34:11)
yeah. Right.
Ashley (34:15)
But my plan is to take care of myself now. And because I don't have kids, I can invest in my well-being for the long term. Where a lot of parents delay that they have kids, that investment goes into their children and they worry about their health later on.
Heidi (34:29)
Mm-hmm.
Ashley (34:29)
mine is I focus on my health now. How can I get up and can I get up and down off the ground? Can I do these things? And there's different markers you don't need someone to take care of you and like also
Heidi (34:37)
No, and there's there's no guarantee.
Ashley (34:40)
Walk outside right now and just not make it home and I won't what does it matter if I don't make it to like 79? Like you don't know that that's going to be the case. I say plan for it that you're gonna have to pay for someplace to take care of you. but
Also plan for your own health and well-being that you can take care of yourself for a lifetime. And I
Heidi (35:00)
Yes.
Ashley (35:00)
know this because I just, I mean, I have a group of 80-year-old clients in the gym.
So it's never too late to do that to take care of yourself. It is exactly.
Heidi (35:04)
I love it. And that is and that's an investment. Yeah, it's an investment in yourself because
and I think that's really good advice, plan to have somebody that's not a family member necessarily take care of you because I have some single friends that have don't have children. They do not plan to have children. They are don't even plan to be in a relationship. So they're not even gonna have a partner potentially to take care of them. And
They have set up they're like around my age in their fifties, they have set up plans for insurance should something happen, but they also do take care of themselves their health is very important to them. My mom moved in with us, my new husband and I a year and a half ago, it it was the best situation, even though it's not ideal.
And I'm so fortunate that I was able to retire and that my current husband is amazing and he he takes care of the family and he he does all the things necessary so that I can do the podcast and and take care of my mom from home. I mean I and and drive her around and do the things and keep her healthy as long as possible. You know, it wouldn't have worked out well for my younger brother. He's a professor. His wife just passed away. at the age of fifty,
Let's see, Suze was fifty five. So it's like he is in a grieving space still to a degree. I mean he probably will I mean that's kinda something that doesn't just go away. So it wouldn't be ideal for her to be there. She can't be by herself all day while he's teaching. My older brother he's got his own health situation going on and in his house with his wife isn't set up for having an eighty two year old with dementia. It's just I mean
She's very fortunate. And we're fortunate that we can we came together and and figured this out. But it's no guarantee because had I not met my current husband, I mean things would be very different right now if I were single
Ashley (36:54)
It it
Heidi (36:55)
mom of college students or whatever.
Ashley (36:59)
It is amazing situations always work out the way they're supposed to, but we're not supposed to know how they're supposed to work out until it happens.
Heidi (37:04)
Right, right. So so you
yeah, exactly. So in another ten, twenty, thirty years you're gonna look back and go, Holy crap, that's why this happened the way it happened.
Ashley (37:14)
I hope
that in that happens, in that 30 years, I'm sitting on a beach drinking a cocktail. While I'm doing that. Those are my
Heidi (37:21)
I think he pro
Ashley (37:22)
those are my plans. And I mean, I say this, I laugh, I say I'm gonna have a cocktail. I don't really drink all that much, so I probably will be drinking like water.
But it will be on the beach. Exactly. So
Heidi (37:30)
Yeah. But you will be enjoying that beach You you will be enjoying that beach though for
sure. what is something that you wish people with children either biological or adopted would stop saying to you?
Ashley (37:43)
god. I
feel like this is this is so loaded.
Heidi (37:50)
But I wanna know
because I think this is where I want people
to learn. Because you don't know unless you're in a situation yourself or someone says, Don't say that or do say this.
Ashley (38:01)
well there I mean there's probably a lot of them. Like for someone when you're going through fertility and people are like, don't worry or don't stress about it. You're gonna have a baby. guys, I didn't have one. People said it to me. That is always really hard. I think there have been comments made that like I should have kids and all of that stuff, by people in my own family without them maybe knowing this happened. and I've done all of this stuff and I kinda wanna be like
It's really nice for you to pass judgment that you I should be having kids, but you don't understand that I have done everything in my power, like a reasonable power to have a child and literally didn't end up with one. so thank you for having an opinion about my life, but you don't when you are sitting in the stands and watching someone else live their life, they are playing the game. Let them play their own game in their life and leave your opinions maybe to yourself.
I
Heidi (38:52)
Well
Ashley (38:52)
think like well, what are you even gonna do without kids? I mean like but like
Heidi (38:58)
Wait, wait, I got a list if you need any advice. I mean I sound like I I sound like I'm so disgusted
that I had three children. I'm not. I'm not I'm a realist, you know, and I I see
Ashley (39:07)
Well
Heidi (39:08)
the the things I see from both sides and th there is no utopia.
Ashley (39:11)
But mine is also
when you when your kids grow up, what are you gonna do with your time? You've literally spent 18 years, 20 years, 22 years, put out however long they're in your household. What are you gonna do when you're done when they're done? And if you and you have all boys, don't you? Okay. But what are you gonna do when
Heidi (39:21)
Right. It's a it it's weird too. No, my oldest is a a girl and then I have two boys.
Ashley (39:27)
you have sons and their wives are there and they you don't they don't need you at all because they have another woman running their whole lives? Like
I've always had hobbies. Like even like having kids probably wouldn't have stopped that. But a lot of people don't have hobbies. They go from like being college kids to being married to going out to doing this. They've never found hobbies and things they like it to enjoy outside of work. And then they have babies. And now you have no hobbies. And what are you gonna do at fifty and sixty if you have no hobbies and you have no social circle? I have social circle, I have friends, I have community, like I have a lot of things.
I think honestly I would see my sister probably gets harsher comments as someone who has chosen to be childless. like
Heidi (40:05)
that's another whole thing.
Ashley (40:07)
so like that is very different. if you know someone is struggling with infertility, don't tell them you're pregnant in a public place.
That is real awkward because again, like I said, like I might cry during this, like today I was really good. but I'm not always really good. So like that has been one that I do find can be really challenging. just genuinely asking people over the age of twenty-five that are married when they're gonna have kids. Like
It doesn't matter if I'm trying, not trying, there was one Thanksgiving. My brother and his wife, they had been together for like 10 years before they actually got married. Then they got married. And I want to say this maybe ha was the first Thanksgiving after their wedding. So they'd only been married a year. And someone at our table, and I was trying to get pregnant, but wasn't. And my sister has always been team, I never want to have kids.
I'm sitting at a table, they asked my brother and his wife when they're gonna have a baby, and I told my family that it was none of their business when any of us are gonna have a baby because it's between us and our partner and you should leave them alone. And again, seven aunts, my brother and his wife, they're like they they're just not ready to have kids, like they're not even 30 yet, like they're not ready to have a kid. but they were asking that, and my sister-in-law had been asked it multiple times, and like this had happened for a couple years, and it's just like no one like whether someone is having kids, not having kids, or whatever.
like ask me about anything else. Like, even then, ask me about my job. Ask me if I'm I'm doing any of this or that. Ask me about my last Facebook post. I would rather talk to you about my politic opinions than when I'm gonna have a baby. that
Heidi (41:39)
Yeah, that says a lot people don't want to talk politics.
Ashley (41:42)
would be a better conversation. So just know there's there is so much more about people than.
Whether they're gonna have children or not. When my brother and his wife they had their first child, they were always asked when they were gonna have their next child.
it's not only about having children. I like understand we need to repopulate we need young people. Like I get that. but there's other ways to ask someone who has no children, are you planning on having children?
Like it's a
Heidi (42:11)
Yeah.
Ashley (42:11)
like that to me is better. where I could then choose, no, I'm not trying, no, or hey, we're trying and we're struggling. Can you pray for us? Like, whatever you want to say to the in that situation. Like, are you planning to have children? Is better than when are you having children. Then people can choose their safety level to carry on that conversation with you in a very open sense. If you asked me that, instead of asking me when I'm gonna have children and I have been trying to get pregnant for five years, you're probably gonna get a way better, more friendly response. You might get a nicer one.
if you don't know me, but if you know me, I am going to deliver you a very nice TED talk about how
Heidi (42:48)
I love it
Ashley (42:49)
inappropriate that is for you to ask about whether I'm making a baby or not.
there's a lot of different ways people handle it.
Like, if someone just got married, they like maybe they just want to be married for a couple years.
when people have been dating for a long time when are you gonna get married?
but what if he
Heidi (43:05)
What if they don't want to get married?
Ashley (43:08)
was gonna propose that night and you just blew the world's biggest surprise and they just stare at you, boy like I mean I called my brother and he'd been dating my sister-in-law Ashley for like ten years and I called him and I'm like, hey, I don't really care, but I think Ashley wants to get married and you need to shit or get off the pot. And he's like, Well, funny enough, I'm gonna propose. I'm like, Okay, cool, I don't really care. And he's like, Wait, you just called? I'm like, Yeah, like bro, you've been with her for ten years. You either need to marry her or leave. Like, I don't know
Heidi (43:31)
Right.
Ashley (43:31)
what else to tell you at this point. And he just thought it like he's like, my.
My
God. And I really do stay out of there. Like, but at this point I was like, bro, really. Right?
Heidi (43:38)
Well, I think I think that was warranted at that point, you know, because because you're
you're her advocate a little bit too. he didn't see what was actually going on.
Ashley (43:46)
Well
it's also like like you got a college major and I tell you what my college major and people like what are you gonna do with that? Well I don't know, I'm nineteen I'm gonna get a job, I hope.
Heidi (43:52)
yeah.
Ashley (43:57)
when
Heidi (43:57)
Right.
Ashley (43:57)
you have kids, you're spending the 18 years raising them and growing them. But like me, I'm not spending the next 18, 20 years growing and raising my family. What am what am I gonna do?
Women, children or no children, you're so much more than just being able to bear children and have them. Like, there's so much more
Heidi (44:13)
Hundred percent.
Ashley (44:14)
value to you. There's more there's value to you being a dad as well. Like, guys, you're not sitting there on the island alone, but you're more than that. And like, I think a lot of times like that gets taken away from women because like men have children and the they ask men what they do for a living, but they don't always ask the wife what she does for a living, and she might work and she might have a freaking cooler job than him. Like at this point, one of my best friends, her husband's retired, she works.
He stays
Heidi (44:38)
Yeah.
Ashley (44:38)
home with their daughter. Like, like there is so much there, but our first instinct is to to look at it in very normal roles. but just know there's so much there, open and available, and like there's community for you, whichever way it happens to be, and
If you're trying
Heidi (44:55)
Yeah.
Ashley (44:56)
and it's not working, like you can talk to the people that had babies, but you can also talk to people that didn't. And I think sometimes that might be important. If you're going through this journey and you're really struggling, talk to people that have tried it and maybe they didn't get a baby at the end and see what they're doing with their life and what they like and what they enjoy. And like it's it's okay to have joy in your life even if your life didn't go as planned. And you
Heidi (45:17)
Yeah.
Ashley (45:18)
are in complete control of what that joy looks like too.
Heidi (45:20)
Yeah. I agree.
I I agree because I think the whole process is has gotta feel very out of control, out of your hands. And we do still get to make a lot of decisions for our lives, whether we end up having children, choose not to, or unable to, and I think th there's a there's a healing process within each each situation. because I I remember actually having really bad postpartum depression with my first one.
And just being like, I feel trapped. and that's something that it's hard to admit that because but it was also my situation. I was working full time and I wanted to be at home with her and my marriage wasn't great and I have this new baby and it's like, crap, now what? You know. But but anyway, I like your your encouragement to those who are going through this to
To reach out, you're not alone and to be able to talk about it not just to your partner and to a therapist, but other couples that are going through it. So I think that's a part of the healing process. And I think that, can be grieving and still planning your future. That's life. You know, we we don't we don't need to be stuck in in that
Ashley (46:31)
Infertility is you're kind of stuck in limbo until
you either have a baby or you move to the next step. And how long how many years of your life do you want to be in limbo for?
Heidi (46:42)
Yeah.
I know from my friends it's all consuming. It's all consuming financially, it's all consuming time wise, emotional band. Yes.
Ashley (46:49)
Emotionally, literally,
if man, you have a million conversations about it, and I'm like relatively pretty open. So like I'm having this conversation, you know, however many clients walk through the door that day. Like it was a lot. no one stepped on any boundaries that I didn't allow them to be in, because I am the boundary queen. but it was it could be very emotionally draining
Heidi (47:10)
Yes.
Ashley (47:10)
at the end of the day, and like it's okay to know that like it doesn't have to be a physical limitation that gets
you there it could be an emotional one too that you're ready for the next part of your life to begin and it really is just another chapter it's like when your kids move out you have get a new chapter well when you decide that you're not gonna have kids you there's a whole new chapter I mean in lots of them I hope for all of us
Heidi (47:36)
Right.
Right. Absolutely. Well, I appreciate your honesty and and your optimism is definitely contagious. I that's one thing I really love about
Ashley (47:43)
Thank you.
Heidi (47:44)
you. it's why you're successful with your business and your clients because you take a situation and it may not be ideal, but you're able to flip it around and see a different perspective of it. And that's such a beautiful gift to be able to share with people. So thank you.
Ashley (47:58)
Well thank you. Well thank you so
much.
Heidi (48:00)
Yeah, thank you
so much for coming on again. And you know, you're always welcome to come on. Well we got
Ashley (48:05)
Well thank you.
Heidi (48:06)
lots we're gonna talk about, fitness and and health and all the all that
Ashley (48:10)
Awesome, I love to chat
Heidi (48:12)
good stuff. thank you again for taking the time
Ashley (48:13)
Awesome. Thank you.
Heidi (48:15)
and sharing from your heart I really appreciate you, Ashley. Thank
Ashley (48:17)
Of course. Thank you.
Heidi (48:20)
Thank you so much for listening. Now it's time for the patron shout-outs. And I will say that I do get patrons who join every week. However, I record these so far ahead of time that I don't always have my Patreon list in front of me. And so sometimes the shout-outs will be every other episode. But once the fall comes and things settle down a little bit, I'm gonna try to do them every week. But
For this episode, my patron shout outs go to Marylene Pandicorn Time's Mom. What a name, I love it. Bill, Ruth, and Jill. And hey Jill! Thank you so much for joining all of you. Jill, I expect that you will say yes to being on the Evolving Together podcast because
You have some very important information to share regarding preventing dementia and our blood sugar levels and all that good stuff. So no pressure. But I do hope you come on, Jill. So thank you to all the patrons who joined. we are so appreciative and honestly, that support means everything to us.
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you can join at the collaborators level for ten dollars a month where we have that special group Girls Night In, where we are in our PJs by seven thirty PM, nine thirty if it's a really wild and crazy night, and we go into all sorts of topics, sitting around together chatting as girlfriends.
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Heidi (50:41)
and now for the disclaimer. This podcast is for educational and entertainment purposes only and is not intended as professional advice. The views expressed are our own and should not be taken as medical, legal, or financial guidance. always consult a qualified professional regarding your specific situation.
By listening you agree that we are not liable for any actions taken based on this content.