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The Psychedelic Psychologist is a conversational-style podcast hosted by Dr. Ryan Westrum with clients and guests who use talk therapy to integrate Psychedelic experiences for healing and personal transformation. Tune in to hear people’s experiences, breakthroughs and stories of healing addiction, depression, and trauma through Psychedelics. Dr. Ryan Westrum gracefully and empathetically narrates real therapy sessions with people in their most vulnerable and transformational moments.
I would like to invite you to take a
moment, a moment in your day, where
you find yourself grounding, where you
find yourself in a container of safety,
finding grounding in what feels
appropriate to you, be it thoughts,
emotional state, and your body.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Watching yourself landing on
your foundation, finding center.
I offer the idea of where
do you find your power?
Where do you find and trust your strength?
All too often, in the world we
live, it's important to recalibrate.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Allowing you to wonder, wander,
and engage in your power.
Breathing in and breathing out.
Witnessing the intuitive
nature of your strength.
Noticing how the word and
understanding of power comes to mind.
Is it a felt sense?
Breathing in
and watching the rhythm of the breath out.
Acknowledging your universal
fingerprint of power, of strength,
as gentle, as soft, as
solid as you know it to be.
As you breathe in and one
final breath out, take a moment
to incubate your uniqueness.
Breathing in and breathing out,
reconnecting to your center,
opening your eyes when you feel
called to see the room, and most
importantly, to see yourself a little
differently than when you first.
Entered in.
Hi, it's Ryan.
Welcome to your weekly dose of the
psychedelic psychologist, where I
invite my guests to share stories
about their psychedelic experiences.
We cover a variety of topics
from overcoming addiction and
severe depression to finding
wholeness and spiritual emergence.
Today, I'm humbled, honored, and deeply
excited to drop in with Spirit Bird.
Spirit Bird, how are you coming in today?
I'm doing great.
Thanks, Ryan.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, this is a new experience for me.
We just met and yet it feels
like as we talked offline a
little bit, there's an energy.
There is.
Yeah.
And I've been having fun playing with
that recently with really feeling the
nudges and feeling the energetic web.
Yeah, it's like the internet
web and the energetic web.
Huh.
And speaking of that, how
do you make sense of that?
How do you trust that?
How do you interact
with the energetic web?
For me, that's just really simply
feeling in the body, feeling a
nudge, feeling called somewhere.
If I see a picture of someone, hear
a voice that feels like a familiarity
or resonance, then I usually get
curious and maybe it leads to
something and maybe it doesn't.
And I tend to try not to.
Make a conclusion if I reach out to
somebody and it doesn't turn into
something Interesting or collaborative.
I try to not judge it as being a misstep.
I love everything about that It's in a
way it's honoring yourself and letting
it unfold in the way it needs to unfold.
It's really much Can you
tell me this is all about
psychedelics and plant medicines?
What was your invitation and
how did it coalesce with you?
And how are you finding it?
Yeah, well you shared a little bit about
your story, and I have some similar
crossovers it started being a pretty
spiritual kid in the first place the
veil, as most kids, was thin, and as I
got a little older, where that starts
to dissipate, for me, it materialized,
so it went from kind of sensing spirit
or sensing magic to, having actual, I
wouldn't call them hallucinations, but
seeing spirit visually and physically
hearing it, taking my history test in high
school and hearing, you know, chatter,
like there's somebody standing behind me.
And I, you know, I was definitely
disoriented and confused by it, especially
as it went on, there was no context
to understand what was happening.
And I didn't.
As a young person didn't even know
how to like ask for help or know
that I needed help, but I also was
aware that this is odd, so it wasn't
really fully psychosis, right?
It wasn't really fully hallucinations
because I could see him, but I was
also aware, hey, that's unusual.
To put it lightly, but alongside
that, I also, I remember actually
later in high school, I was
always interested in spirituality.
Especially in East Asian philosophy and
practices and came across some writings,
loved, loved Alan Watts as a young person.
I remember writing an essay on the
value of the psychedelic experience
before I'd ever experienced them.
So I think there was an interest
and curiosity initially.
And then from there, I, I had this whole
mental health crisis as a teenager.
Eventually found actually a therapist
who was quite alternative that
helped me understand, you know, just
the concept of, you know, empathy
and being highly intuitive and
picking up on stuff that isn't mine.
Different levels of emotional
intelligence versus lived experience.
And he actually planted the
idea of ceremony with me.
He knew a woman.
I never ended up working with her,
but that basically did initiations.
So that's where it kind of all,
the seed of everything was planted.
Spirit Bird, that's beautiful.
And I, I honor you because similar to
you, we, we walk a very congruent path
of Feeling things, seeing things, and
you made a beautiful comment of, at a
young age, being open to so many things.
What was that like to weave that into
your everyday existence as a teenager,
and how does one walk, would I say, one
foot in and one foot out, often is how
I see it, is the spirit realm, seeing
things and hearing things, and then
also, hey, I have obligations to take.
Yeah, I think that, you know,
it was an ongoing process.
When I was little, little, there would
be moments where I was really connected
to the dream realm, and there'd be
moments where I might share with my
mom something I saw in a dream, Yeah.
And then we would see it happen shortly
after I would get a lot of reflections
from people about being in tune,
having a deep connection with animals.
But again, when you're that young,
it doesn't really mean anything.
It's just kind of like, Okay, whatever.
As I got older, I think that what I
enjoyed the most personally was It's
that connection really with, with nature
and with plants and animal spirits.
And again, I didn't necessarily
have that language at the time,
but that's where I really found.
The personal nourishment was
being able to go out in nature.
I would have little ceremonies, you
know, in nature with a little candle
and a couple little objects and learn
about different plants, talk to trees.
And I think it really gave
me quite a bit of grounding.
And maybe, as I'm reflecting right
now, I actually think it probably gave
me a pretty strong sense of who I am.
I grew up in a pretty, pretty
stereotypical American suburb, midwestern
suburb, fairly religious community
where I, I think I, I was definitely
an out of the box kid, especially as I
became a teenager, but I, I feel like
I wasn't fighting against everyone.
So I think that's maybe one of the
biggest gifts that it gave me was.
Being able to connect with the world
around me on, you know, from, from
internally helped me develop that sense
of self so I could feel comfortable,
even when it was uncomfortable,
even when there were challenges or
judgments, just being connected to who
I am and my personal experience of the
world, letting that be the foundation.
for my choices, for how I view things
for understanding all of that stuff.
I love everything about that.
Spirit Bird, what I'm alive with
right now is your young appreciation
for ceremony quickly and ritual.
What do you do today, and how
have you now really integrated,
because psychedelics have so much
ceremony sometimes, and so much.
What's your relationship
with ritual and ceremony?
You know, actually, mine, I
have a very deep, well, I would
say I'm a reverent irreverent.
type person regarding that.
So there's a deep respect, but
not too much, not pedestalizing.
Yeah.
I feel like I'm kind of nonchalant shaman.
There's a very deep reverence.
I will pull in the sacred
into most experiences.
And also there's not for me
personally, there's not a lot of
drama around it just because that's
not in alignment with who I am.
So I tend to, if I'm calling in the
spirit, I tend to just say that versus you
know, having a really dramatic expression.
And again, that's just because that's
more authentic to who I am personally.
So I like to just bring in really,
actually really practical things.
And, and just name what's there as
part of the ceremonial practice.
This is what I'm seeing, this
is what we're feeling, this
is what's here right now.
That's a breath of fresh air.
I remember when I was in high
school, there was a shirt I had
that was irreverent and justified.
So when you said irreverent,
I'm like, please.
Because I too am the same way.
It's like, I hold things with respect,
but also as I see your laughter and
feel your laughter, it's like, if
we take ourselves too seriously, It
might, like, misrepresent the larger
meaning of the wisdom that is unfolding.
Yeah.
This is so important and
beautiful and significant and
also it doesn't mean anything.
Right.
Yeah, that's a beautiful walk, isn't it?
Tell me about your relationship to
non ordinary states of consciousness
versus potentially plant medicine.
Do you make a differentiation in your
When you listen to yourself, are you
like maybe a drumming or something
that doesn't take plant medicine?
How do you navigate your personal
story of when it's appropriate to work?
You said earlier this symbiosis of working
with the medicine and not asking for it.
Well, I learned That lesson, maybe not the
best way, that was part of my journey too.
Once I got turned on to the idea
of ceremony, I found shamanic
practices shortly after.
And around that time, maybe right before
I found the shamanic work I, I partied.
I partied with mushrooms first.
That's what happened initially
in my first year of college.
Beautiful experiences with them, but with
that intent, and then, as I found my way
deeper into shamanic work and shamanic
practices I started to see where you could
work with the medicines intentionally.
So I did that for actually a long
time, just for myself personally.
And it was quite, it was just an
exploration for me at the time, and a way
to just feel other parts of consciousness.
I don't know that I had like
a real big drive to what I was
doing, but it was more intentional.
Then I got really snooty for a while,
again, as I went deeper into the shamanic
work, where for me, I understand,
like I, I use this term a lot, like
the other side of the circle, right?
So I'm on one side of the circle
where I came in to this life with
the spiritual gifts pretty, pretty
open, like, and there's that spectrum.
So anybody can learn how to do that.
And also for me personally, that
was, like, just natural, it was
just, I didn't really have to
be taught, it just made sense.
So, between that and the shamanic
work, I was like, you don't need plant
medicines to access these certain states.
So I was a little bit uptight about it
for a little while, like, that's cheating.
And until I got called to work with
them again, and then the two pieces
really came together for me regarding
like, oh, this makes so much sense.
When it comes to whether or not
to, I guess, utilize them as a
tool, for me that's very much based
on they have a distinct voice.
So it's very much based
on their invitation.
You, you can ask too.
If you're interested in working with
them, and you don't necessarily have
a direct invitation, you can just ask
the medicine, if it's appropriate, or
can I, and then wait for the answer.
And I learned that one the hard way by,
later on I had not partied with them, you
know, I'd put them down for a long time.
Again, still as a young person, I
was offered some recreationally.
I remember holding the bag and
just hearing such a clear, no.
And in my adolescence, I ate them anyway,
and I didn't have a great experience.
So for me, it was like, that was
actually super helpful to be able to
have this distinction of like, actually.
Were a no to you working
with these right now.
That's really beautiful.
And what i'm honoring in you is Behind
the scenes as i'm listening is your deep
reverence to your knowing Like, you're
growing and crystallizing your knowing
and the intuition, and I see you smiling.
What's coming up for you
when I mirror that to you?
Yeah, yeah, well, thank
you for the reflection.
I do feel like that's very accurate and
I love the word crystallizing right now.
I feel like that's largely what's
happening for a lot of us in many
different levels, however you
relate to that word, so that's, the
word is especially timely for me.
And it's super comical on a side
note because I feel like we would
have been partying together the
whole entire time and then become
super snooty and then like, No!
You are not allowed.
And now it's like, there's this
playfulness of like, okay, there's
time for like, reverence and respect.
And there's also time, which I really
am appreciating, Spirit Bird, is
set it down and do the devotional.
And I've almost given up
on saying work nowadays.
I'm just like, be devoted to
yourself and amplify the listening.
So if it's breathing or if it's nature
alters, and that's what I'm really
hearing from you is this amplification
of like, no, this doesn't have to be.
The thorough highway.
Psychedelics does not have to be the way.
Yeah, great tool.
Not the, not the only way, not
necessarily the best way, but something
that can support us in our becoming.
In our coming back together
as community in our evolution.
And what's the emotion that
comes up when you hear that,
like, just certainty within you?
Hmm,
you know, I'm sure you hear this a
lot too for many folks that work with
us, there's this line that we're also
walking between, or I'll, I guess
I'll say, I'll speak for myself here
a line that I'm walking between.
Reverence, but not pedestalizing I'm
witnessing with the excitement around
psychedelics which I'm also excited.
I'm witnessing a lot of, sort of
facilitators or experts posturing via,
you shouldn't do it that way, if you do
it this way, you're bad, and yeah, and
it makes me a little sad, to be honest.
Yeah, it's extremely disheartening.
Yeah, I, and also very exciting too.
I love that there is conversation.
I love that, you know, again, there's
gonna be, we have different roles for how
we might work with them as a practitioner
or participant and I I happen to like this
middle road where there's deep reverence,
but not so much that I'm stuck up about
it, but not, but I'm also willing to
talk about it, but you know, and I'm not
shying away from where I offer services.
So, and, and we can laugh about it too.
That's where I like to play.
Yeah, and the beauty is what I'm hearing
is the open dialogue, the safety of
listening and making it your own, because
there is no right way, and there is
obviously healthy set and setting and
intentionality, and allowing the medicine
to work with us, but There is no way,
like you said, this austere, like, if you
do it this way, it's the way to do it.
And I, I think that, that is somewhat
blasphemy if people get involved in that.
There's a little egoic nature unfolding.
Yeah, and I think it's helpful to, you
know, have some standards for yourself.
I'm finding, actually, The more that I,
you know, talk about the knowing land and
the knowing of my medicine, my personal
medicine, and how I like to work, and
what works best, the more I'm actually
having respect and appreciation for
different ways of doing it too because it
kind of see, it can see more clearly how
the puzzle fits together, so to speak.
Yeah.
You just totally froze me.
The personal medicine, because that
reminds me of kind of the meditation I
just gave us the power and the strength
within self and trusting that uniqueness.
What is your personal
medicine and how, how.
Do you hold that?
Yeah.
Do you mean me personally or what
is personal medicine in general?
Right.
That's a great question.
I'm awesome at giving questions.
Wait, wait, what would you say is
your personal medicine within you?
Like, what do you, what's your vibrancy?
What is, what is your strength?
You know, I, I feel like this
is kind of vague, but I feel
myself to be the medicine of
the in between just in general.
There's learning with that too, around
discernment and landing on a decision.
But for me, it's like.
Where I like to take people is in between,
and then in between that, and then in
between that, and then in between that.
For, for clarity, for
deeper understanding.
But I also feel like I carry a lot of
medicine around that self trust piece.
Cause that's been a big part of
my journey, is like, am I crazy?
Is this really happening?
I'm feeling something, and
then maybe I express it.
Maybe the other person isn't able to
meet me there yet, so then I kind of,
my tendency over my life has been to
revert to I must be wrong, so as I'm
unwinding that I feel like I'm stepping
more into this carrying sort of those
codes or that medicine of what it is
to actually really trust yourself.
I love everything about that.
And what I would say to you from what I'm
witnessing is that trust is beautiful.
It's really, I can hear it and it's good
because I too use the word discernment.
So you're echoing everything and it's
really resonating and I respect it.
Go ahead.
Tell me about your medicine.
Thank you.
I think it's exactly that as discernment.
I think when I listen to myself, it's I'm
choosing wisely who I share my story with.
So when I was listening to you,
because I too have had insecurities
or as I grew up as, am I mentally ill?
Do I have schizophrenia?
Is there psychosis?
And yet, I found clearing the sound,
right, softening, desensitizing
everything to resensitize my awareness.
So, I often, my medicine is
desensitizing the external in
order to amplify my internal.
And similar to you is, I, you call it
the middle, I call it slicing it thinner.
So, my medicine is down deeper,
down deeper, down deeper, till it
gets to a calibrated core of sorts.
Right?
And so echoing your version is very, it
seems to mirror with similar words and
unique words, and it's really fascinating
because I think if you don't do the
middle path, you, you're not in it, right?
It's, it's not there.
Potentially, you know, I think I think
a lot of it depends on where you start.
You know, if you, for some of us,
I think the path is really about.
If you tend to always be in the middle on
things, it might be the opportunity to go
to an extreme where you don't normally.
If you tend to normally be on an
extreme, or on at the outside, then
I think the invitation is to go in.
I love that.
I love every single thing about it.
Can I ask you, what are you
doing to be gentle with yourself?
Space.
Space has been a big part
of that for me right now.
Really, any, any time that I find
myself getting in the mind around
overthinking something, around
insecurity around something, I'm really
inviting myself back in and noticing.
Where it's not actually true right now
in this moment or even a month, a week,
a month from now would still not be true
and letting myself rest, play, art, even
especially in the moments where it's feels
like the most impractical thing to do.
Hmm.
Say more about that.
Like against society's norms or
against cultural norms or against
internal, like, ask all, all of them.
And again, this is coming from, you
know, me where I probably traditionally
have a tendency for overwork.
So, so really I'm directly
interrupting that pattern of in
those moments where I might not be.
Being gentle with myself, stopping for
what, you know, makes me feel good and
nourished that doesn't necessarily have
a productivity has been super helpful.
That is beautiful.
I'm honored.
I'm deeply honored.
Thank you so much.
Yeah.
What a pleasure, Ryan.
Thank you for what you're doing.
Yeah.
It means the world.