Tom and Paul read meditations

What is Tom and Paul read meditations?

A lighthearted reading of Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. Join us as we read his private journal from 2,000 years ago and talk about how it makes us feel.

Speaker: Good morning, Tom.

Good morning, Paul.

Good to be back.

Yeah, you were traveling.

Well, it wasn't just me.

It was also you.

Oh, I

Speaker 2: was also traveling.

Yeah,

Speaker: we both took some little trips.

Speaker 2: True.

Speaker: I went to Omaha, Nebraska.

I'm watching college basketball.

Speaker 2: Yep.

And I went to Tahoe to ski.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: With lovely hostas.

Yeah.

Yours is Maybe

Speaker: more Exotic, I feel

Speaker 2: like.

Omaha, then Omaha?

Yeah, Omaha

Speaker: is a little.

Speaker 2: I think, so when I heard
you say that word, I just, it's just

an incredible, like, I, the United
States is full of old places like this.

I love it.

That you've never heard of.

I would just, yeah, and
I have zero interest.

Zero concept of them.

Going to Omaha.

Yeah, that's, you know,

Speaker: that's where
Warren Buffett lives.

Yeah,

Speaker 2: so that, that part.

I know.

Okay.

Speaker: That's the part.

Yeah.

It's pretty close to
where we grew up, really.

Yeah.

It's not that far away.

It's basically Iowa.

Do you like it?

Uh, we had fun watching
basketball and uh, hanging out.

We played a lot of good board games.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: That kind of weekend.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

What about Omaha itself?

I don't know.

Do you feel like it's

Speaker: a nice place?

Whatever it was pretty like gray and
cold, but it was a little nostalgic We

were like played some football outside.

It got snowed on a little bit.

Oh, this reminds me of Yeah back to our

Speaker 2: roots yeah the earth
exactly Midwestern America

Speaker: it did So, okay, I guess that
my genuine reaction to it though is like

Sometimes I have this feeling of like, I
live in San Francisco now, and I really

like San Francisco, and I think about
moving somewhere else because it would

be cheaper and wouldn't that be nice?

But then I have this like,
Horrible coastal elite reaction.

Yeah, but those cities aren't
as fun and interesting.

Well, that's what I just said.

Yeah, San Francisco Well, yes,
okay, and then some but I have this

other voice in my head That's like
no you're just saying that because

you've turned into this horrible.

Like yeah elitist.

Yeah, but then I actually go
to Know that that guy's right.

It is less cool than San Francisco.

It was it felt a lot Smaller Sure.

Than I expected it.

Sure.

To I, I Smaller.

Smaller.

Yeah.

I had this, that's part of it too,
is I felt like sometimes I feel

like I have the, this coastal elite
perspective or whatever that's

like all the cities that aren't the
ones that I'm thinking of I see.

Are like, I'm dismissing them in
part as being like little Mm-Hmm.

little towns with, you know,
tiny little whatever, whatever.

Mm-Hmm.

. And then this one did feel, Mm-Hmm.

pretty small.

Mm-Hmm.

. I was like, oh, okay.

I'm sort of right in a way,
but in a way that I don't know,

I still feel bad about it.

Kind of.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, Nebraska.

Yeah.

I, um, one day maybe I'll go
there and we'll check it out.

I'll be able to

Speaker: speak to it.

The thing you're imagining, you're right.

Yeah.

That's it.

Yeah.

Yes.

Speaker 2: The great American plains.

Yep.

Sort of.

Speaker: Yeah.

Nebraska.

Definitely.

Yeah.

Okay.

Cool.

Yeah, I don't know that I have
anything more to say about that.

I'm, we're alienating our
listeners possibly here.

Uh, yeah, anyway.

Speaker 2: Awesome.

Yeah.

Do you, and with that, uh, do
you wanna, do you have anything

to bring to today's readings?

Especially some, some kind of, something
you've been mulling over in your head.

Anything at all?

Uh, anything stoic.

Speaker: I guess here's, here's what
came to mind for me as we were sitting

down to do this this morning, which
is like, we've taken a little break

since we recorded our last episode.

And I feel like with some podcasts that
might be like, Oh no, the death now.

Like, how will we pick up our momentum
from the prior episode kind of thing?

Like.

Uh, Oh, it feels like
we're starting from zero.

Yeah.

But the genius thing I think about
this podcast is like, that is sort

of very, somehow with stoicism,
that's almost better in a way.

Yeah.

Like that it's kind of, this text
is almost designed to be sort of

like, Put down and you go, you go
live some part of your life and then

you pick it back up and see what's
new and what's changed about it.

You

Speaker 2: step back into the river.

Or whatever.

Speaker: Yeah, exactly.

So I'm feeling very much like that.

I kind of frankly don't remember
that much about what we talked

about in the last episode.

Yeah.

And I'm kind of just like I haven't
thought that much about stoicism

recently, but I'm excited to just
like I think it's just in you.

It's just

Speaker 2: flowing through your veins,

Speaker: Tom.

Yeah, I guess so.

Speaker 2: This morning when I got
up, uh, you know, it's still dark out,

Apasana kind of rolls over and is like,
What, uh, oh, you have your podcast, so

what are you guys talking about today?

Yeah.

And I was like, What'd you say?

I don't know.

Like, no idea.

And she's like, but Tom must pre read.

And I was like, nope,

Speaker: that's the point.

I was also explaining this to somebody
who listened to our podcast recently.

To be clear, listener.

We do absolutely zero work
between episodes and that

is, from our perspective, the
best part of this podcast.

Yes.

Perfect.

Which is that if there was
homework required of us, we would

not make the episodes because we
would fail to do the homework.

Yes.

So yes, we don't know at the
beginning of this that, at best,

we do what Paul has just asked me.

Yes.

Which is we have a little thought that we
just note during our weeks or whatever.

Yeah.

So I'll return the favor here, Paul.

Yeah.

Anything you've been mulling over?

Speaker 2: Well, I think, you
know, I think this is maybe

too broad, but, but I've been mulling
over how I've been telling myself

these past three, four months that
like, things have been tougher, right.

On, on the, on the business
side and on the work side.

And I've been telling myself that,
Oh, I just need to get over the,

this next hump and then there'll
be a valley and it'll be great.

Yeah.

And I've been coming to the,

uh, coming back to this idea that
like that, that philosophy is not.

That perspective is, is not healthy.

And I should, I should just be like,
well, this is actually the, this isn't

the normal and it's actually a wonderful
life and there's nothing wrong with it.

And I just, like, I, I can just
adjust to, to this, to this life.

And, uh, yeah, anyway, so, so it's just
kind of a matter of, I think that, that

futurism, uh, style is, is just, uh, it's
my, it's what I default to and I think

it's something I'm working on reducing.

I say, that's interesting.

I think,

Speaker: I guess I'm curious how you
think Marcus would look at that question.

Do you think, do you think
that's, that's more his, his

more like, be in the present.

Yeah, I think he would say,

Speaker 2: be in the present, you know,
deal, deal with what's in front of you.

Yes.

Uh, yeah, don't feel
sorry for yourself, right?

There's a degree to which this is
essentially feeling sorry for yourself.

Uh, which.

Which doesn't really help
anyone like who's that helping?

Yeah, what who gains from

Speaker: that?

I guess though my one other Reaction
to that that I think Marcus would agree

with though Is that sort of like at all
times have the feeling this too shall

pass is also kind of stoic So like
there's a way to be in the present Yeah,

and not feel sorry for yourself, but
Um, but also have some of the feeling

you're describing of like, this is
normal now and it won't be forever.

Yeah.

And who knows what the future will hold
and maybe it will be one of those valleys.

Um.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

The bit about like, who knows what's next.

Yeah.

That's not for me to decide.

Right.

And it could be much, much worse is
actually probably more Marcus's style.

I think the issue he might
take with my perspective.

Yeah.

But I think the fact that I so firmly
believe that I'll get over the mountain

into the Valley and that Valley will be
better is probably the part he would.

Speaker: Yes.

It's a degree of like
future control that he would

Speaker 2: disagree with.

Yeah, yeah,

Speaker: yeah.

I say, okay, cool.

Yeah.

That makes sense.

That, I mean, this feels like a very
relevant text if that's what you're What

you're grappling with, I feel like, for.

Speaker 2: I'll bring one other
thing, which I love to, I love to

drag my wife into this upasana.

So without her knowing, I
don't think she's listened to,

she's got up on these episodes.

Uh, so

she's got this work thing where she, she's
been working a lot, you know, the company

has decided to put a lot on her plate.

Right.

And.

There's this natural tendency
to, to, to be the hero, right?

To, to do the work.

And then there's this self reinforcing
cycle that happens, is when you're

the hero, people say, Oh, wow,
okay, I guess it's not that hard.

She's great,

Speaker: yeah.

Speaker 2: Well, no, they don't even, it's
like, oh, I guess, like, they don't know.

That

Speaker: was a normal
amount of work we gave her.

Yeah,

Speaker 2: like, who, exactly.

And so they're, so the cycle continues.

Right.

And then you have to keep being a hero.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: And.

And the problem is like the organization
gets no signal that actually

there's a problem in the system.

There's a cog that's being overworked.

Uh, and so you're not helping anyone.

You're actually hurting the organization
and you're hurting yourself because

you end up being more frazzled.

You end up being a little bit
like, you know, like a little

bit more frustrated at work.

And your coworkers notice that,
but they have no idea what

you're actually working on.

Like who tracks like productivity?

That's like an impossible task.

Um, and so all, so you end up getting,
uh, well, it's a burnout recipe, but

she also, you know, she also didn't
get whatever the exceeds expectations

thing, and she was very upset about that.

Right.

And, and so, and so we've had a lot
of conversations almost every night

about like the, the, you know, the
line between like, okay, so like,

let's lay out everything that's here.

And which of these things can you control?

Yeah, sure.

And it turns out the thing you can
control is just setting a rounderies

and just saying like, you know,
Being clear and raising your hand.

And, um, you know, when, when it's like,
this is more than a one person's work.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Uh, because nothing
else is in your control.

You, you can't, you know, for you
to try to control how other people

perceive you is very difficult.

Uh, yeah.

And anyway, so, so it's, I think
just a classic stoic approach that,

that I firmly believe in, right.

I mean, what are you going to do?

Speaker: Totally makes sense to me.

So, yeah.

Speaker 2: So it's hard to internalize,
it's easy to say and it's hard to do

because you feel needed in the moment you
feel like, well, I, if you know, she did

this thing, she worked till like 10 p.

on Monday and, and, and was like
kind of burnt, you know, burnt out

from that and like, and she's like,
but now I like I'm on top of it,

now I'm ahead and it feels great.

It's like, okay.

Yeah.

Uh,

Speaker: by the end of the day,
Tuesday, how are things looking?

Yeah.

No, I, exactly.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

I mean, like even if it
does feel great, right?

Like you were.

Nothing changed.

Like, well, yeah, I mean, yes, there
are times like, don't get me wrong.

There are times to that, that,
that it is temporary, but, but

there's, it's important to assess
whether that's actually true.

Speaker: Without getting too
much into her work details.

No, I think there's.

Okay.

I feel like you raised this interesting
question about like how organizations

in general can learn about.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: Overworked components
of their organization.

Yeah.

And like, you know, we've identified
the stuff that she can control,

like sort of just communicating that
that's what's going on with her.

How optimistic are you that that actually
like works at the level of truly giving

the organization feedback or is it going
to be a kind of like, Hey, we hear you

with Bosna and six months from now we're
going to hire somebody who's going to

help you out, but until now we, until then
we still need you to do all this stuff.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

But the org doesn't get to.

I mean, you're paying the
employee for their hours.

You're not paying them with
like, you know, like there's

a contract in place there.

I think, yeah, I mean, I think that, uh,
what has the only way an organization

learns about this stuff, and that's even
true for, for the keeper organization

is like things, balls need to drop.

Like that's the way you actually,
it doesn't people raising their

hand and saying I'm working a lot.

No, like that doesn't yes
That's that's not a thing.

This is exactly why I raised the

Speaker: question.

Yeah, it feels like that won't do anything

Speaker 2: I mean in half
my one on ones every week.

It's like oh, I'm you know, it's
I've been underwater like, okay I

don't know like that's not really
is that candidly as a manager?

I don't I don't know everything
that's going on with that person

like what am I gonna do about that?

Like, yeah, you know They need to
decide what to cut and then I only

notice when the balls get dropped and
I realize that You There's this part of

the organization that is understaffed
and I need to solve that problem.

Uh, so yeah, I mean, that's how it works.

You think it's fair for the org
to be like six for six months?

I mean, I think it's fair
if they reward the person.

I think you can't, it needs to
be caret, it needs to be caret.

It can't just be like.

Totally.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yes.

To be clear, I was thinking that, that,

I guess I was imagining maybe
an organization that's a little

more, I'm being kind of cynical.

Yeah.

I was saying like.

You know, the organization on some level
does have incentive to do this to its

employees in the short term, even though
I think you're correct in the long term.

No, it's bad for the organization.

So, like, yes, you can drop balls
or squeak in other ways as a wheel.

Speaker 2: Well, I think it's bad
because every org, it's almost

impossible to have everyone in the
organization at optimum productivity.

Like every org has like
four people who are heroes.

Yeah that carry the 60 other people on
their backs Yeah, and the 60 other people

are like they're working like 11 to 2 or
like some of them just cuz there's like

well I don't know like I wasn't given.

Yeah, that's you know a surface area
and I'm blocked structure Yeah, it

always happens Yeah And so like it's
much more valuable to have the person

who was gonna carry everyone on their
back like You , you know, not burn out.

Yeah.

And give some of that load to the person.

Yeah.

Working 11 to two, right.

Than it is to just burn out these Totally.

These carriers.

Yes.

Yeah.

Because the Makes sense.

Yeah.

, I don't know.

I mean, yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Okay.

Well, I, I, I'm, I hope Opa not
my friend is, is doing okay.

And this, these stoic conversations Oh no.

Are, are helping her with.

Speaker 2: Oh, yeah.

That.

Every, uh, our, our, yeah.

As you know, we love to phrase everything
as a, as a learning, as a lesson.

And so this is an
important free education.

She, it's like college, but
she doesn't have to pay for it.

They pay her to learn, to learn, you
know, uh, time management skills.

Yes.

Yeah.

Good stuff.

Speaker: Yeah.

That's a nice way of
looking at it, I think.

Yeah.

Cool.

Okay.

Well, shall we see if we can get any
more free education from this book?

Yeah.

Let's get educated.

Yeah.

Okay.

Cool.

We are in.

Uh, book six here, uh, and I think
we're at bullet point seventeen.

Speaker 3: Okay.

Speaker: The elements move upward,
downward, in all directions.

Perfect start.

The motion of virtue is different.

Deeper.

What?

It moves at a steady pace, on a road
hard to discern, and always forward.

Whoa.

Okay, cool.

So we've got elements.

Like air, love it or whatever.

And Air's thing is everywhere.

Just bouncing all over, just
wherever it wants to go.

Yeah.

Right.

But virtue, yeah.

Also move, moving.

Yes.

Like the air deeper though, or
whatever different, but its motion is

Speaker 2: deeper.

Yeah.

I don't, that's a weird word for motion.

I, I, yeah.

Speaker: Yeah, I mean, maybe literally
deeper, but maybe more like he could

be more complex and yeah, subtler.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: This, this
passage reminds me of that.

Um, you know, the, the, the arc
of justice Ben's or the arc of

whatever bends towards justice.

What does that

Speaker: quote?

Uh, the arc of the universe,
uh, bends towards justice.

The arc of the moon.

Moral universe, something like that.

Yeah,

Speaker 2: I love that quote.

I mean, I don't know how
true it is, but I love it.

Uh, it's this kind of like, it's
this concept of like the good

guys are going to win in the end.

Yes.

Speaker: Right.

And it's very epic.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Which it's, it's one of those things.

If you zoom out far enough, you, it's
on, you can't prove it or just totally

non verifiable, totally non verifiable
and very optimistic, but like a, a nice

way to live by, like, I'm willing to
just adopt that idea and just live by it.

Yes.

I agree.

It's karma, basically, is what it is.

Yeah.

Maybe that's what he means.

It's hard, the road is hard to
discern, but it always moves forward.

Speaker: Yeah.

The motion of the virtue, it's
like, what is, what motion

is even being described here?

I'm imagining

Speaker 2: these like little, like
floating gas balls, uh, kind of moving

around, fire balls, water balls, you know.

Okay, Tom.

Okay.

. I mean that is that,
that's the answer, Tom.

Yes.

The elements moving upward.

Yeah, I think does, I think we can move on

Speaker: to the next section now.

Okay.

, it moves at a steady pace on a road
hard to discern and always forward.

It moves at a steady pace.

. Yeah, I guess I don't even know, like it's
hard for me to have a concept of virtue.

What it means.

Virtue.

For virtue to move.

Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

That's what I mean with the
balls ball, gas, gassiest balls.

Speaker: Yeah.

But you, you're talking about
gassiest balls of virtue?

Yes.

Okay.

, which is white.

White, okay.

It's like a

Speaker 2: bright white light.

Speaker: Okay.

Yes.

And all the other elements
are bouncing around.

Speaker 2: Me and Marcus
are like connected.

We have like a neural link going.

I know exactly what, what
my, what my blood means.

So there's like a slight

Speaker: magnetism or gravity
or something that pulls the, the

virtue gas balls in one direction.

While the other elements
all just bounce around.

They're just

Speaker 2: going around, but virtue
is the one that kind of has a, has a,

Speaker: has a.

That's a direction.

That kind of works for me, actually.

In a way.

I kind of like it.

Yeah?

Yeah.

Sort of.

I don't know.

Where's it all going to end up?

That's a good

Speaker 2: question, actually.

Forward, Tom.

Yeah.

Speaker: Forward.

Which is such an arbitrary Which is where.

Yeah, exactly.

Like, relative to the road, I guess.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

This one's tough.

Okay.

Alright.

Speaker: We'll see if
there's more Gas Balls.

Yeah.

Clarity coming for us in
the next entry, number 18.

Unlikely.

Yeah.

The way people behave.

That's the end of the sentence.

Yep, that's it.

I think when he does this it's
because he's introducing a subject

that he's about to expound upon.

Yep.

They refuse to admire their
contemporaries, the people

whose lives they share.

No, but to be admired by posterity.

People they've never met and never will.

That's what they set their hearts on.

You might as well be upset at not
being a hero to your great grandfather.

I say, I like this.

Interesting.

He's, he is lambasting people who
are concerned about their legacy, but

are not concerned about what people
in the present think about them.

Speaker 2: Isn't this exactly
what he's a proponent of?

Isn't that, doesn't he talk
about how, don't care what

Speaker: people say, like, just, just.

Yes, but I, I guess, I think
that's true also though, he says

that posterity, like concerning.

Also posterity doesn't matter.

Also posterity is stupid.

Okay, so everything's stupid.

Yeah, but I agree that there feels like a
little bit of a contradiction here where

like usually the message is like, do the
right thing, right now, without, for the

reason that it is the right thing, and
not because either your contemporaries

or the future will care that you did it.

Oh, I see.

Now he's kind of saying, okay, but it's
better for the people who are here now.

Sure.

To, you know, admire them.

Whatever, whatever.

Speaker 3: Yeah,

Speaker: I, I, I, this
kind of works for me.

I think because of the way
he phrases, they refuse to

admire their contemporaries.

The people whose lives they share
is like, kind of like, Hey, you're

here with these people right now.

You've got this like opportunity, you
know, sharing your life with them.

He's implying is a way of
sort of enriching your life.

But no, you turn away from
them and focus on your great

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Tom, are you upset at not being
a hero to your great grandfather?

I am not

Speaker: upset at that.

Are you a hero?

Maybe you are actually.

To my great grandfather?

Yeah.

Do you

Speaker 2: think your
great grandfather would?

Speaker: Well, I guess there's a sort of
metaphysical question about like, could

he be, is it even possible for him to?

Speaker 2: If he was

Speaker: alive, would he,
would you be a hero to him?

I have no, I have no idea.

What would he make of the modern world?

I have no idea.

A hero.

Yeah.

I, I, I like, I mean, I don't, yeah, I
think the, the tension is interesting

with his general disdain for character,
what people think in general here, but if

the, if we think about this as more being
like, Hey, you know, having contemporaries

can be a pleasure and a joy.

So celebrate those.

Yeah.

That's a silver lining.

Sure.

At the expense of.

Yeah.

Don't worry so much about,

Speaker 2: yeah.

You don't get to take it with you.

Kind of like, yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

No, that's a, that's a nice reading song.

Speaker: I like that.

Yeah.

Number 19, not to assume it's
impossible because you find it

hard, but you recognize that if it's
humanly possible, you can do it too.

Speaker 2: what?

This is like, uh, like tough coach advice.

This is like, this is like you.

That's true, yes.

You're really tired.

The workout's really hard.

And don't assume it's impossible
because you find it hard.

Recognize that it's possible,
so you can do it too.

Yes, yeah, I agree.

Thanks, thanks Marcus.

It's a little bit Nike,

Speaker: um.

Yeah,

Speaker 2: yeah, exactly.

Speaker: Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

Speaker 2: Yesterday

Speaker: you said tomorrow.

Yes.

What's that guy, Steve
Prefontaine or whatever?

Yeah,

Speaker 2: that, that kind of vibe.

Yeah, that is, yeah.

I feel like.

I mean, it's cool.

It, it's, it could be inspiring
in the right, in the right, yeah.

Kind of context.

The

Speaker: second sentence especially
kind of makes me roll my eyes.

I know.

Yeah.

The first one is like, you can do
whatever any other human can do.

Is the, which like also no.

Is what I'm Yeah.

Right.

The first sentence though.

Yeah.

Like, I, I, I, I think I like that.

Um, yeah.

Yeah.

Like, yeah.

That, that comports with my
understanding of his thinking that like.

There's, yeah.

Things might be difficult,
but like, dismissing them

as impossible is a mistake.

Like, figure out what you can
actually, what is actually possible.

Yeah.

That is separate from your
subjective experience of horror.

Speaker 2: This makes me think of the,
you know, I sort of treasure these little

gems of, uh, People who I can always
empathize with in times of hardship.

So the guy who doesn't sleep, for example.

He has also started

Speaker: to live in my brain all

Speaker 2: the time.

Yeah, the guy who doesn't
sleep is the best.

I'm sorry, I'm sorry that
we're, yeah, my uncle in law.

Yeah.

Who's an amazing person, by the
way, but also a great symbol for me.

Yes.

And then, uh, you know, I'll
read these books about, like,

living in gulags and stuff.

So there's always a sense of, like, yeah.

There's always.

It is humanly possible, and
that's I guess you can do it too,

as like, yeah, you didn't sleep
well, like, you know, get over it.

Right, yes.

Speaker: Yeah.

Okay, number twenty.

In the ring, our opponents can gouge
us with their nails, or butt us

with their heads and leave a bruise,
but we don't denounce them for it,

or get upset with them, or regard
them from then on as violent types.

We just keep an eye on them after that.

Not out of hatred or suspicion,
just keeping a friendly distance.

Speaker 3: Wow.

Speaker: We need to do
that in other areas.

We need to excuse what our sparring
partners do and just keep our

distance without suspicion or hatred.

Speaker 2: That's,
that's very interesting.

Yeah, I

Speaker: like this.

This is nice.

Speaker 2: Huh.

So like, okay, so recognize that there are
rules of the game and everyone's a player.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah.

That's, parse it too.

I do think it's like, there's
something funny about it.

I guess maybe the phrase violent
types has a deeper meaning.

Maybe there's a
translation thing going on.

Yeah, yeah.

But like, I think if somebody gouged
me with their nails, or butted me

with their head and left a bruise.

Speaker 2: would do more
than keep an eye on them.

I think I

Speaker: would regard one
from then on as a violent

Speaker 2: type.

Okay, okay.

But this is in the ring.

Tom, I even, so even No, but you are,
you are, you're in a gladiator ring.

Yeah.

Your job is to, you're supposed
to be fighting each other.

Are these

Speaker: against the rules?

I guess like some, some kinds of like, I,
I feel like that's the implication, right?

Speaker 2: Oh, I didn't
read it that way actually.

I don't know.

Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

That was my initial read, but now
that I'm looking at it, you're right.

Speaker 2: That I'm not sure why.

Speaker: feels like the implication.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: Part of me thinks the
implication here is that they're,

they're like, that's true.

They're cheating.

They're doing you good.

Speaker 2: Uh, that's, that's fair.

I didn't read it that way,
but that does make sense.

Because otherwise it would be like if in
the ring someone stabs you in the chest

Speaker: Yeah, I feel like this would
be almost too obvious if it wasn't the

case that this is they are doing light
cheating It's right like the way I read it

Speaker 2: Okay, but yeah, but even with
that reading the light cheating reading.

Yes, and he's on them It's
not like I kind of get it.

You're in the ring.

You're that kind

Speaker: of guy.

Yeah, you're the sort
of person Who does that?

That's fine.

Keep a friendly distance.

Yeah, I'm not gonna we're not gonna
be best friends, but also I'm I'm

not, I'm not tattling, I'm not, yeah.

Speaker 2: And I kind of, maybe if
there's an empathy, like I kind of get

it, you're like, you're in the ring.

Speaker: Yeah.

Um, right.

I, I like that we need to
do that in other areas.

So what are the other areas?

Yeah, I agree.

So like, what's the analogous experience?

I guess for, I mean, we always assume
with Marcus that it's like the court,

court and military stuff, but yeah.

So, so.

Cool.

Okay, let's, can we think bigger?

Could it also be like his
military adversaries or something

Speaker 2: where

Speaker: they're sure.

Yeah.

They're being,

Speaker 2: what are you going to do?

Yeah.

Have empathy for everyone.

Put

Speaker: yourself in everyone's shoes.

Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: No suspicion or hatred.

Just look at those guys and
be like, Hey, you know what?

That, that little ambush you
did, that was a bit of a nail

gouge or a headbutt or whatever.

Speaker 2: Keep my distance.

Yeah.

Without suspicion or hatred.

I mean, I think suspicion
is natural, but okay.

Speaker: I, I, I like this idea of,
yeah, I mean, yeah, suspicious is

an interesting word, but he's sort
of saying, yes, like stay neutral to

like, don't let your emotions, it's
easy to have an emotional reaction.

Yeah.

I feel like actually this
is almost sort of like,

it's kind of obvious to
us in the modern day.

Yeah.

You should do this.

Speaker 2: It's a way to stay happy.

Otherwise, like hatred is really heavy.

Like you have to carry that around.

Speaker: Yeah.

In order for this to be like a sort of
novel observation, I feel like what it

reveals to me is like, and I think this is
maybe true thematically just in general,

the overall level of like emotion that
I feel like he is experiencing on like

a day to day or hour to hour basis feels
like it must have been really high in

comparison to what I'm accustomed to.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah,

Speaker: yeah.

Like, his natural reaction is like, Okay,
this guy did, did, did be dirty a little

bit in the gladiator room or whatever.

And now I'm furious and I regard
him with hatred and suspicion.

And I'm like, yes, everything
is charged with these big

emotional reactions all the time.

And he's like, actually, Marcus,
be a little more clinical.

Be a little more distant from that.

And to us, we're kind of like,
yes, we do this all the time.

This is what most human
interaction is like.

I mean, his

Speaker 2: life is hard.

Like, his life is just hard.

Objectively harder than ours,

Speaker: for sure.

But I do think there's something
about like the, the just average

degree of emotional charge that's this

Speaker 2: is the, this is the puppy.

Marcus puppy.

Yeah, it's just, he's out in the world.

He thought it was going to be so great.

This guy.

Oh no.

Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

And it became the emperor.

Speaker 2: Yes.

Emperor puppy.

Yeah.

Speaker: I think that,
yeah, I agree with that.

This is, this is, this is
making me think of puppy.

Marcus?

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: Okay.

Number 21.

If anyone can refute me, show me I'm
making a mistake or looking at things from

the wrong perspective, I'll gladly change.

Nice.

It's the truth I'm after and
the truth never harmed anyone.

What harms us is to persist
in self-deceit, and ignorance.

Speaker 2: That last bit is cool.

The truth never harmed anyone.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: We're harming ourselves with
self defeat and deceit and ignorance.

I'm thinking of like, you know, breaking
up with a girlfriend or something.

Yeah, yeah, right.

Like, the truth is you
weren't great for each other.

Yeah.

That's not the problem though.

Right.

That's fine.

Speaker: Yeah, so the problem is
Is that you Ignoring that fact.

Yeah, is that you pretended
like they were really perfect.

That's kind of a nice sentiment.

Speaker 3: Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker: There's something about the
one that's The way this one is phrased.

I feel like, I mean, this is a
sentiment that's also familiar

to us in the modern day.

I feel like you'll hear like CEO
type say this sort of thing too,

or like, all I want is like.

Yeah.

Whatever's best for the company.

So if anybody thinks our strategy is
bad, come forward, please be well,

but actually what they're saying is
like, if, if any, yeah, speak now

or forever, anyone can refute me.

Yeah, exactly.

Like the implication being like, it's
probably not possible to refute me.

Like I'm probably right, but
wait, Tom, I'm not accusing you,

but there, it also seems like.

I, I hear it coming out of like a
politician's kind of mouth too, a little

bit, but there's, there's something
about this and this is really just my

like, uh, Minnesota passive aggression
radar going off, but starting the

sentence with, if anyone can refute me.

That's true actually.

Yeah.

That is funny.

Yeah.

I'm sure he did really have that
like little convention that we

have in English or whatever.

Yeah.

Yes.

If anyone can refute, refute me,
I'll gladly change is to me just

dripping with passive aggression.

Speaker 2: Right?

, it's so hard to, to do both.

Like it's so hard to be, like,
you have to come up with a thing.

'cause like you, you need a, you need
a thing, a strategy, and then like.

To actually be willing to change
is this scary thing happens where

Emperor has no clothes people realize.

Oh my god You didn't think that hard about
your thing, right because it changed.

Yeah

Speaker: So that no one
else is gonna change.

Speaker 2: Yeah, like So
it comes with a real cost.

Yeah changing your your
totally your thing and so

It's hard to live this way man, I I
feel like it's yeah, maybe not true

like I guess, I guess, my point is
like, you kind of have to do the thing

where you're like, I'm very confident.

Yes.

And to, to, and yeah, and very, change
your perspective very infrequently.

At the point at which you're sharing it.

Speaker: Yeah, this
strikes me as aspirational.

Yeah, we all, we all want to
have, wouldn't it be great?

Like, yes, I am a truth seeking machine
and like the correct thing to do at

all times is to shed everything that
is not totally aligned with the truth.

And like, yes, you're pointing
out that in practice, there's a

bunch of you, you pay a price.

Although, I guess I sort of believe
that if anybody actually was.

Willing to incur all
the penalties for being

Speaker 3: yeah,

Speaker: like revealing that
they're making these types of

changes It seems like Marcus is
the kind of guy who would be like,

Speaker 3: nope

Speaker: I'm always just doing
whatever I find to be true.

And yes that involves changing
my mind about shit That's right.

You guys are my subjects.

Yeah, you have to deal with the fact that
I am changing my mind about it, basically

Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.

I Guess it comes down to how much thought
was Put into the, like, there is this

mythos of, of like thoughtful strategy.

Strategy is like all made up.

Like no one really, there's no data.

Yes.

Uh, sorry.

I'm, I'm, I'm being selfish and talking
about my own stuff, but yeah, but

it's like, it's like shockingly, it's
not like you can't AB test anything.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Nobody, no company
in the history of the world has

ever made this decision before.

Like, it's just.

Speaker: I was just talking to one
of our co workers who took a business

strategy class at business school.

And that was very much his reaction too.

They would discuss a case, and
then the professor would be

like, so why did they fail?

And everyone would be like,
well, you know, it's kind of for

all the reasons we just said.

And then he would be like, no.

It's not fair.

And they're like, okay, yeah, that,
that is very, that is funny of

this, of this strategy thing too.

It's just storytelling.

It's impossible to know.

Yes.

Who's good at retroactively assigning
a narrative to the thing that happened.

Yeah.

I'm like fine.

Fine.

Like I like to live in
worlds with stories.

That's a little bit like
nihilistic or something to be

like, there is no such thing as
strategy and it's all just random.

Yeah.

But I can't help but think that that's
a pretty big part of it, frankly.

Speaker 2: I think part of the job
description in any organization is

like, You can't be ni like you can't
have a nihilistic leadership like

Speaker: Yeah.

. Yeah.

Your job is to like ride out
the random stuff that happens.

Yeah.

And you, you exercise
some control over it.

Yeah.

But also your responsibility is
to assign narratives to the thing.

Yeah.

That involve you having more control over
then you really do than you truthfully do.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Can you imagine running in org and just
being like, you know, Nope, this happened

to us . Because at the board level, like
sometimes it's like, um, it'll be like,

okay, this is our strategy and like.

Someone who, we had a board member
who was a little bit checked out.

Uh, and he was just like, yeah, you
know, lots of things can happen.

Like, like who knows?

Like maybe the regulation will change.

Like, he was just kind of like his
broader point, which it sounds almost

negative, but I think it was actually
the truest thing that anyone could say,

which is that like, this is, this sounds
good, but like, you know, just hang in

there, random things that might hang in
there because the world is constantly

changing and you might just catch a wave.

Speaker: All right.

I think that is actually very good
to sound advice, even though it

does also read as checked out VC.

Yeah, as like,

Speaker 2: who, yeah, as, as,
you know, this is as good as any.

Yeah, totally.

I, I

Speaker: do think that was something
I remember when, like, moving to

San Francisco and starting in tech.

Sort of having the realization that
like, oh yeah, actually a big part of

playing this game is about like, yeah,
just, you know, You start a little

company and you put it in a position for
a while that hopefully will You let out

Speaker 2: your sails.

Yeah, exactly.

And

Speaker: you sit there and you
have a certain amount of runway

that lets you maintain a boat
in that position for a while.

And then, if you're doing a good job,
is like letting the boat sit there as

long as possible before all the water
bursts through all the sides, basically.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's so poetic.

Holy

Speaker 2: cow.

That's great.

I think

Speaker: you pretty

Speaker 2: much taught me that.

Well, but that, but I
never put it that way.

I really liked that.

Speaker: mean, like you
use the sail analogy.

Okay.

First.

So I'm only Water bursts
through the sides.

Tom, you're ready to
write the meditations.

I'm just extrapolating from
your metaphor, I think.

Speaker 2: You know what
we could do at some point?

We could both write five chapters of
our own in Marcus's style and see Okay.

I like this.

Because maybe we don't know what it's
like to be on the other side of the desk.

Yeah.

You know?

Yes.

Come up with meaningful sounding things.

Right.

Speaker: I've, I feel like
over and over and over again.

Okay.

You're right.

Actually, I think it would be very hard.

Okay.

Maybe what we can do is in some future
episode, you don't have your book and I

work in two bullets that I wrote and we
see if you could figure out which one.

Okay.

It's some future episode.

I will be like, this time you're putting
your book away and we're going to see

if you can suss out, which is hilarious.

We'll have a little game.

Yes.

Nice.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Some kind of It's gonna be hard, Tom.

I, I think Yes, I agree.

I think, especially, frankly, I
think if I used ChatGPT, I could

do it pretty, like, write it in
the style of Marcus's meditations.

I actually kind of think
actually that's true.

I, I think it's a This
is what ChatGPT is for.

It's a more fun game if I don't do that.

No, you, you should
try to write it myself.

Yeah.

And I think that would be pretty hard.

Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.

I'm looking at these now and I'm
like, would I have written this?

Yeah,

Speaker: so yeah, let's take
number 22 here as a case study.

I do what is mine to do.

The rest doesn't disturb me.

The rest is inanimate, or has
no logos, or it wanders at

random and has lost the road.

Speaker 2: I mean

Speaker: I guess I'm a I'm a mixed Felix.

Part of me thinks this is
basically impossible to write.

Part of me thinks it's extremely
easy to write possibly.

Speaker 2: I'm worried that as soon
as I actually put my pen down to

try to write something, it's gonna
sound Like, it's the perfect mix

of makes sense and makes no sense.

Yes, totally

Speaker: obvious.

Speaker 2: And what is he saying?

Yes.

Okay, so I do what is mine,
the rest does not deserve me.

Classic.

This is Doseism.

Yeah.

The rest

Speaker: is inanimate.

Or has no logos.

Speaker 2: I don't know what that means.

Has

Speaker: no logos.

Yeah, actually that seems like
a pretty solid little hack.

Just jam the word

Pretty yeah, yeah, if I get that
in there early You'll just check

out and stop listening to the rest
of the entry and then I'll win

because you'll think it's a real one

Speaker 2: Yeah, I was
thinking about that too.

I think what I would do is
insert some like Alexander the

great or some reference What's

Speaker: he not

Speaker 2: gritty Yes.

And the mule driver had in common.

Remember what

Speaker: Xenography said
on the bank of the river.

Speaker 2: Exactly.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay, so I think this does give us some
insight into what logos means for him.

Yeah, it's nice.

It's like the spirit of
control or something like that.

Speaker: Like.

Yeah.

Yes.

It has to do with the
idea of even being a logo.

of being worth alive and a part of the,
like, meaningful part of the world.

Um, yes, I think that's right.

That the Logos is this, like the,
the, the, the laws that drive all

things, the, like, the sort of
meaningful forces of the universe.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Um,

Speaker: and

Speaker 2: yeah, I do.

I mean, this is an exact
thing that I could think of.

Speaker: Yeah, that's true, yeah.

Although, I mean, I don't know.

The second sentence is Yeah,
that's kind of unrelated.

Why does he care so much about the rest?

Yeah, that's true, yeah.

Well, I mean Okay, I remember that
our last episode that, like, we talked

about this idea that, like, he has
this meta point of, like, the things

he chooses to focus on, he focuses
on for a reason, because they're

very They're actually important.

Even though a lot of the time our
reaction is like, okay, he's talking

about the same stuff over and over again.

We don't get why it's important
and we resolve to be like, no.

Oh yeah.

We're always going to give
them the benefit of the doubt.

Huge benefit.

Yeah.

Okay.

Here's my benefit of the
doubt version of this.

Love it.

Uh,

it's actually because defining
what is yours to do is really hard.

We all have this temptation.

It sounds like exactly what a
positive is going through in a way.

We're awake.

There's all this stuff we sort of
control, and our natural instinct is to

be like, I'm gonna control all the stuff
that I can even control a little bit.

Because that's what our
animal brains tell us.

And so the thing that he's saying here
that's a little bit more like, in the

subtext, is like, actually, the scope of
things that you really genuinely control

is much narrower than what we think.

Right.

Boy,

Speaker 2: I would love if
that was the sentence that came

out of his mouth, but okay.

Yeah.

Uh, Yes, those things have no

Speaker: logos, is the
important thing to bear in mind.

Oh, okay, thanks.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

It wanders at random
and has lost the road.

I, I think like, so a, a generous
way of saying that is like,

There's all this chaotic stuff
that happens in all of our lives.

Yeah.

And like, if you try to control it all
and like bring it all into your little

sphere of whatever influence you, you,
you bring that craziness and narrative and

like you lose the road yourself somehow
because you like, you can't control

all of it and so instead you can stay
on Marcus's little road by being Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Yeah, last we
talked about the road.

It was the virtue.

Speaker: Yes, this is how
you The motion of virtue.

You're trying to catch up with
those big gaseous virtue balls.

Yeah, you want to be on the

Speaker 2: road with the virtue balls.

If you're

Speaker: doing things that are
not yours to do, those things

are pulling you off the road.

Speaker 2: Air, fire,

Speaker: water.

Yes.

Exactly.

Earth.

You don't want that.

Nope.

So do what yours is to do and you
get to find out where those big

virtue balls are going, which I know
a lot of people are curious about.

Which we all really want to know.

Finding out.

What's at the end of the road.

The idea is to stay traveling with them
because even though their road is hard

to discern, they're going forward on it.

So stick with them.

Forward.

Okay, number 23.

When you deal with
irrational animals, Love it.

With things and circumstances.

Be generous and straightforward.

You are rational, they are not.

Nice.

When you deal with fellow
human beings, behave as one.

They share in the logos.

And invoke the gods regardless.

Don't worry about how long
you'll go on doing this.

A single afternoon would be enough.

Speaker 2: What?

Speaker: Whoa.

Speaker 2: Okay, so he's juxtaposing
irrational animals with humans.

Yes.

And he's saying, You know, don't
treat humans like the animals.

Treat them like they have logos as one.

Which is a nice sentiment.

Speaker: Yeah, I, yes, I agree.

He seems to be, I feel like
there's a, a, a theme running

through today's stuff where he's
saying like Treat people nicely.

Treat people nicely and
also like enjoy their, like,

Behave as one.

They share in the Logos.

It's very much about a sort of
like, you get to have these communal

experiences with the other people
who are alive at the same time as

you, and you should enjoy that.

And I feel like these last two sentences
are kind of like about that too.

Yeah, it's very nice.

I'm a little puzzled by
invoke the gods regardless.

I don't really know what that means.

If I

Speaker 2: asked you to invoke the
gods right now, Tom, what would you do?

You would get up on a
table and raise your arm.

Yeah.

To me,

Speaker: invoking the gods seems
like you're being like, Oh God,

please help me or whatever that
to me is invoking the gods.

Uh,

Speaker 2: I don't know what he means.

Invoke the gods regardless.

Don't worry about how long
you'll go on doing this.

What's this?

Yeah,

Speaker: that's, that, I'm not clear.

Or, just like, he's
describing a process, right?

Like, he's got a little
flowchart at the top.

I see, I see.

I am dealing with something.

If animal.

Is this person, is this thing that I
am dealing with an irrational animal?

Then, okay, if so, be
generous and straightforward.

Yeah.

Okay, it's not.

It's a human.

And then at the bottom
it says, yeah, uh huh.

Instead, I will behave as one
because they share on the logos.

Speaker 2: Yeah, and then at
the bottom it says, invoke gods.

Speaker: Yes, yes, yes.

Both, yeah, they both point back
towards a single, a single circle

that says, invoke the gods.

And then there's like a circle
that points back to the top.

And then there's a question, a
question mark next to that that

says, like, infinity question mark.

Yes, there's ambiguity as to how many
times you're going to repeat this process.

Speaker 2: Just one afternoon is enough.

Speaker: He says, and that, I
think what he's saying there is

like, this is life, actually.

All of life is this flowchart
that I have now drawn for you, and

there's like beauty in that process,
like, you should enjoy that process.

Be generous with the things you can
be generous with, be communal with

the things you can be communal with.

Invoke the gods.

I'm going to just extremely
generously interpret as being

like, you know, celebrate and like

Speaker 3: sure

Speaker: behave consistently And and
invoke maybe in the sense of honor

Speaker 2: Okay,

Speaker: honor the gods the whole time

Speaker 2: honor the gods
regardless, yes, and Then just keep

Speaker: I just keep doing that.

That's what I've been on.

Speaker 2: Yeah What is a single afternoon
would be enough mean just it doesn't

mean like just get started Like just
do it now and and like Don't delay.

that the idea?

Speaker: I part that that's interesting.

I was parsing it more like

the, just the sort of
like his whole thing about

the scale of time is meaningless.

Like 10, 000 years is
just as short as one day.

It makes no difference.

Right.

Sure.

So like, if all you do is do this
process for a single afternoon,

it's a fully equivalent to
doing it for a full lifetime.

Because, like, who cares?

It's all impermanent.

Great.

That's, I, I, I think I'm
keying on the word enough there.

That he's, his whole thing is like

Speaker 2: The, um, the less generous
reading is that he never treats humans,

uh, He always thinks that they're
not rational, and he has never Right.

And just one afternoon.

He's, he's never pulled it off.

Just once.

Yes.

Would be enough.

Yes.

If I could just do it one time.

In my whole long life.

Yeah.

If I could

Speaker: pull off a single
afternoon where I did this.

Don't

Speaker 2: worry.

Speaker: You don't have to keep doing it.

Yes, right.

Just one Tuesday.

Yes.

Afternoon.

So, which kind of implies
that he would like to do this.

And every time he's about to start,
he's like, oh, shit, how long, how

long am I going to be doing this for?

Okay.

You know what?

Nevermind.

Rational animals.

All of them.

Okay.

I, I think in the spirit of meeting Marcus
generous, we're not going to we're going

to read it not that way, but I do think,
I think you're right that that totally,

if textually, that's completely consistent
with the way that this is written.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Last one?

Speaker: Yeah.

Last one.

Oh, this one has a great first sentence.

I love it.

Number 24.

This one I could write, I think.

I was going to say, this is
one I should have written.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Oh man, this one's perfect.

Number 24.

Alexander the Great and his
mule driver both died and the

same thing happened to both.

They were absorbed alike into
the life force of the world

or dissolved alike into atoms.

Speaker 2: Amazing.

Speaker: I actually, I could
write the first sentence of that.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Yeah.

The second is like a little too
weird for me to, I feel like I don't

think I can totally pull that off.

Speaker 2: I agree, yeah.

Life force is not a
word I would have used.

Yes, absorbed

Speaker: into the life force
of the world feels too weird

for coming out of my mouth.

And also the fact that he
The reference to science.

Then he hedges and provides
an alternative explanation.

Or!

Right.

Or?

I would never have had that
instinct to be like, well that

might be wrong, let me try again.

Speaker 2: This is the same guy who
was worried that there might not

be enough space for all the ghosts.

Right, yes.

Uh.

Which,

Speaker: yeah, I do think they had, they
had some sort of concept of an atom,

but not really our concept of an atom.

To be clear, they did not have
the like literal like protons,

electrons, that kind of concept.

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: Cool.

I like, I like the Alexander the
Great and his mule driver concept.

Yes, did

Speaker: he die in like a mule crash?

Is that the implication here?

Oh, it's just no, they
didn't die together.

Speaker 2: Mule driver is
like the bottom of the barrel.

Yes

Speaker: It'd be more poetic
if his mule got into a crash

or they died at the same time

Speaker 2: I mean, no one really
knows how Alexander the Great died.

So maybe

Speaker: maybe maybe oh, I would
love it if like Marcus knew

Yeah, Marcus knew Yeah, and,

Speaker 2: and everyone has over,
like, looked over it as just

like a, like a silly, Oh, Marcus.

He's being poetic.

He's like, no, no.

They both died.

Speaker: And literally, the same

Speaker 2: thing happened to both.

Speaker: And they were literally

Speaker 2: absorbed into the life force.

We all watched it happen.

Speaker: Okay, that's another version.

Version of generosity is we can read
everything as being extremely literal

history transcription that's going on.

Yeah.

The

Speaker 2: earth cracked open
and they just both fell in.

It was just Alexander and his mule driver.

Speaker: Right.

The same thing happened to both.

I'm just omitting quite a few
details about what that said.

Yeah.

Well, it's obvious.

Everyone knows.

The big hand reached up from the earth.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Okay.

Yeah.

I mean, this whole, like,
life isn't permanent thing.

Yes, and like,

Speaker: legacy doesn't matter.

Legacy doesn't matter, yeah.

You could, your station in life
doesn't matter, we are all going

through effectively the same process.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 2: Good, a good classic.

Yes.

Uh.

Yes.

This is the,

Speaker: this, the frequency with
which he does entries like this

is what creates cover for you and
me to sneak one in, basically.

Exactly.

Speaker 2: This is what.

Yeah.

I'm trying to study this
and do a slight iteration.

Speaker: Yes, absolutely.

I feel like this one you
could almost just mad libs.

You take out some of the nouns and
replace them with other nouns and verbs.

This one, yeah, you could
sneak this one back in.

Speaker 2: Now that we've set
ourselves this, uh, this challenge,

I'm looking at these upcoming
Sections and they're all so different.

Speaker: Yeah.

They

Speaker 2: actually seem it, this is
seeming like a harder and harder exercise.

I think we were making fun of
Marcus for sounding similar to

himself, but boy, we'll see.

Speaker: Yeah.

His sentence structure is something that
I, I feel like is another angle on this.

I feel like my strategy would
be to use a bunch of like.

weird fragments and like

Speaker 3: Yeah.

Speaker: And then long paragraphs
where there's some like this or that.

Yeah.

That's being referred
to, but never clarified.

Yeah.

I feel like,

Speaker 2: yeah.

So I'll, I'll definitely go with that.

I'll go with, uh, partial, like, like not
a sentence, but but with a period after.

Yes.

After the way people
behave, concepts, period.

The way people behave.

Period.

Yeah.

Or I guess on 28th he
says death period, right?

Yes.

And then just.

A bunch

Speaker: of like adjectives, basically.

Yes, yeah.

And then the thing that follows it can
also just be a sentence fragment where

all he's done is connect two ideas, but
not using conventional sentence structure.

Yeah.

Yes.

And then

Speaker 2: that's the plan.

That's the plan.

Speaker: And then he'll talk about some
sort of logos reference and then, then

yes, something about like your eyeballs
dissolving into dirt or whatever.

Yeah, that's the part where
I'm gonna know you wrote it.

Speaker 2: Your eyeballs.

Yeah.

Well, we'll see, we'll see.

We're laughing now, but we'll
see if we can trick each other.

Yes.

Alright, thank you.

Yep, alright.

Bye

bye.

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