What Men Get Wrong About Testosterone, Stress & Recovery | Shawn Stevenson

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What are men missing when they focus on testosterone but overlook sleep, stress, and recovery? Shawn Stevenson shares a reported testosterone level of 1,038 without testosterone replacement therapy or peptides, and walks Dr. Taz through the everyday habits he prioritizes.

Shawn is the host of The Model Health Show and bestselling author of Eat Smarter, Sleep Smarter, and the Eat Smarter Family Cookbook. In this conversation, he discusses the research connecting daily walking with testosterone levels, his approach to strength training, and the morning routine he has practiced for more than two decades.

He also shares the story behind his health transformation: a degenerative disc disease diagnosis at 20, years of chronic pain, and the moment he began asking a different question. Together, Shawn and Dr. Taz explore the grind mentality, the role of sleep in men’s health, moving beyond rigid diets, and why asking for help and investing in relationships matter.

IN THIS EPISODE:
• Shawn’s testosterone lab results and personal health routine
• Walking, strength training, and metabolic health
• Cortisol, stress, and the pressure to keep pushing
• Morning habits, meditation, and recovery
• Chronic pain, identity, and changing your mindset
• Sleep and testosterone
• Real food and flexible approaches to nutrition
• Relationships, connection, and longevity

CHAPTERS:
00:00 Walking, testosterone & the missing pieces of men’s health
04:10 What men get wrong about health
09:51 Shawn’s testosterone results: 1,038 without TRT
16:13 Cortisol, stress & reaching a breaking point
22:02 Outdoor walks, meditation & Shawn’s morning routine
32:15 Chronic pain & the story behind Shawn’s transformation
48:20 The questions that shape your mindset
55:05 Sleep, testosterone & moving beyond strict diets
1:03:09 Longevity, relationships & permission to change

About Shawn Stevenson:
Shawn Stevenson is a bestselling author, health and fitness expert, and host of The Model Health Show, one of the world’s leading health podcasts. He is the author of Sleep Smarter, Eat Smarter, and The Eat Smarter Family Cookbook. His work translates research on sleep, nutrition, exercise, metabolism, and human performance into practical strategies people can use in everyday life.

Connect with Shawn Stevenson:
https://themodelhealthshow.com/
https://www.instagram.com/shawnmodel/
Explore Shawn Stevenson’s books:
Eat Smarter Family Cookbook: https://link.amazon/B07xO8W3P
Sleep Smarter: https://link.amazon/B01v3jeyX

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Produced by https://ClipGrowth.com (Producer: Pat Gostek)

• (00:00) - Walking, testosterone & the missing pieces of men’s health
• (04:10) - What men get wrong about health
• (09:51) - Shawn’s testosterone results: 1,038 without TRT
• (16:13) - Cortisol, stress & reaching a breaking point
• (22:02) - Outdoor walks, meditation & Shawn’s morning routine
• (32:15) - Chronic pain & the story behind Shawn’s transformation
• (48:20) - The questions that shape your mindset
• (55:05) - Sleep, testosterone & moving beyond strict diets
• (01:03:09) - Longevity, relationships & permission to change

Creators and Guests

Host

Dr. Taz Bhatia MD

Dr. Taz Bhatia is a triple-board-certified integrative medicine physician and founder of hol+, where she brings together science, spirit and the human experience to deliver holistic, whole-person care.

Producer

Pat Gostek

Founder of ClipGrowth.com - End-to-End YouTube, Podcast & Clips Management (you just record).

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Hosted by Dr. Tasneem Bhatia (Dr. Taz), triple board-certified physician in integrative, functional, and holistic medicine, bestselling Penguin Random House author, and founder of hol+; a comprehensive evidence-based holistic medicine platform with clinics in Atlanta, New York City, and Los Angeles, and virtual care available nationwide.

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Shawn Stevenson - Full Audio
[00:00:00] Shawn Stevenson: There is a direct, deep correlation between the amount of steps we take [00:00:05] and our testosterone levels. This was just published in the Journal Endr- Endocrinology in 2021. 4,000 [00:00:10] steps a day was that minimum effective dose just to [00:00:15] not basically go in reverse.
[00:00:17] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:00:18] Shawn Stevenson: But at 8,000 steps a day, [00:00:20] there was a notable increase in testosterone levels.
It's not just that it's [00:00:25] magic- Yeah ... it's because it's improving insulin sensitivity. Yeah. It's helping to [00:00:30] mobilize body fat for fuel. When you're walking, which is so interesting, we've evolved [00:00:35] over thousands of years to be very good at using stored body fat when you're just walking [00:00:40] leisurely.
[00:00:40] Dr. Taz: Sean Stevenson is the host of The Model Health Show and the best-selling author of Eat [00:00:45] Smarter, Sleep Smarter, and the Eat Smarter Family Cookbook.
[00:00:48] Shawn Stevenson: The number one determinant on [00:00:50] how long you're going to live and live healthfully is the quality of your relationships. Yeah. What he [00:00:55] called strong social bonds. Mm. Having healthy relationships is one of the most powerful [00:01:00] means of metabolizing stress.
[00:01:01] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:01:01] Shawn Stevenson: Because so often you're just in your own head and just [00:01:05] in this tornado, in this blender, trying to figure stuff out.
[00:01:07] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:01:08] Shawn Stevenson: And it's not necessarily like [00:01:10] venting, which might be a part, but just knowing that somebody's there for you at the end of the day- Yeah ... that has your back and [00:01:15] you can share with, or just to be there for you. We need that. We need each other.
[00:01:19] Dr. Taz: In this [00:01:20] episode, we're talking about what men are getting wrong about health, what trainers often [00:01:25] miss, how chronic pain changes your identity, and what young men and men of [00:01:30] any age need to understand about building a healthier body and a healthier life.[00:01:35]
Let's welcome Sean Stevenson to the show.
This episode is sponsored by [00:01:40] WHOLEplus,
a holistic health platform built around education, personalization, and [00:01:45] integrative care. WHOLEplus blends holistic, integrative, and functional medicine [00:01:50] clinics with learning resources like blogs, YouTube videos, and of course, this podcast, [00:01:55] so you're not just treated, you're informed.
The platform also includes holistic [00:02:00] health quizzes and a curated wellness shop, helping you make choices that support your body at [00:02:05] the root level Whole Plus is holistic healthcare designed for real [00:02:10] life. Visit us at wholeplus.co to
[00:02:13] Shawn Stevenson: learn more about the platform. [00:02:15] Again, that's W-H-O-L-P-L-U-S dot C-O.
[00:02:18] Dr. Taz: All right, a little bit of role [00:02:20] reversal here. I've been on your show a couple of times. I am honored to have you here [00:02:25] today on Whole Plus. You have been sort of a, I guess, pioneer. Is that [00:02:30] the best word in terms of- All right ... s- kinda carving the space in terms of [00:02:35] health advocacy, talking about health, understanding how all the pieces fit together.
You start... You... When did [00:02:40] you enter the space, just out of curiosity?
[00:02:41] Shawn Stevenson: Well, I've been in health and fitness for [00:02:45] 22, 23 years, something like that. It's crazy. I think
[00:02:47] Dr. Taz: that's a pioneer definition right
[00:02:49] Shawn Stevenson: there. Pretty, pretty [00:02:50] bonkers.
[00:02:50] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:02:50] Shawn Stevenson: Um, I started off working at my university gym-
[00:02:53] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:02:53] Shawn Stevenson: that I was attending, personal trainer, [00:02:55] strength and conditioning coach.
I studied nutrition. Um, I took a actual [00:03:00] nutritional science class in, in college.
[00:03:01] Dr. Taz: Yep.
[00:03:02] Shawn Stevenson: And, uh, biology, [00:03:05] kinesiology, and just wanted to help people. Yeah. And so that led to, [00:03:10] um, working with people one-on-one, you know, speaking at conferences, writing [00:03:15] books, and then the podcast medium showed up, which again, I was just like, "How can I reach more [00:03:20] people?"
And so it's been 13 years. We just celebrated our 1,000th episode.
[00:03:24] Dr. Taz: [00:03:25] 1,000th episode. Yeah. Yeah. That's amaz- It's crazy ... and it's like the number one. You're up there in the charts.
[00:03:29] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. Yeah, it's like [00:03:30] Billboard charts, you know? I know. But we've been number one, I mean, many, many weeks.
[00:03:33] Dr. Taz: So impressive. Yeah. [00:03:35] So impressive.
Well, you know, it's not easy entering the space, trying to carve [00:03:40] a path, trying to educate everyone about all the different things without overwhelming them. Yes. [00:03:45] That's a gift and a talent. Right. And motivating people is a lot of what you and I both do, [00:03:50] you know, and trying to get them to that next step or that next piece of the puzzle.
I've spent [00:03:55] a lot of time in the women's health space, right? My original podcast was Superwoman Wellness. [00:04:00] We rebranded to Whole Plus to really engage the family and the community in this conversation [00:04:05] as well- Yes ... and to really take the whole-body approach. And the reason I selfishly invited you on here [00:04:10] today-
is that, you know, in many of our conversations, you've told me your [00:04:15] story, and it has struck me or has struck me that, you know, [00:04:20] men in the area of men's health, we have Father's Day coming up shortly, but the area of men's [00:04:25] health I think is still neglected.
Hmm.
I know that there is a lot from the women's [00:04:30] side about we don't have research dollars and, and I know all of that, and I know a lot of the research medically has been done [00:04:35] on men, but I don't think we're having the right conversations- Yes
when it [00:04:40] comes to men's health. Because data shows and statistics show that men show up when something's [00:04:45] wrong, and then if men are showing up, at least in our clinics, it's usually their [00:04:50] testosterone's off, they want peptides, you know, m- or there's something wrong. You know, they're [00:04:55] very sick. So if you pull back on your 20-something years of, of doing this [00:05:00] work, what would you say about men's health?
What, what, what's happening there? [00:05:05]
[00:05:05] Shawn Stevenson: I mean, it's a bit of a, uh, of a mess right now. It's a bit of a tornado, [00:05:10] but people are talking, which is always good. And, you know, right now [00:05:15] more than ever, I think it's really lacking the psychology piece [00:05:20] with men- Mm ... and educating men. Because our tendencies are to [00:05:25] do more, to grind.
[00:05:26] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:05:26] Shawn Stevenson: Right? Or of course, we can fall into some nothingness, but [00:05:30] that's kind of more the minority of just, you know, burnout. But for a lot of us, when we're [00:05:35] striving to achieve all the things, to have the health and fitness, to, [00:05:40] um, to overcome the dad bod- Yeah ... it's just like I gotta grind. Right. I gotta do more.
I gotta hit the... [00:05:45] And the reality is it often can't be further from the truth.
[00:05:49] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:05:49] Shawn Stevenson: You [00:05:50] know, it's really about leverage. It's about doing the small things consistently. [00:05:55] And, you know, I'm saying this from experience- Right ... because I've done all the things- Right ... for sure. Right. I've tested all the things. I've [00:06:00] tested them with people.
And of course, just being a research scientist and studying this stuff, [00:06:05] it's, for me, I think the overarching message needs to be that [00:06:10] it is remarkably simple. Mm. It's remarkably simple to [00:06:15] be healthy, to be fit. Caveat.
[00:06:18] Dr. Taz: Yes.
[00:06:19] Shawn Stevenson: [00:06:20] It's more complicated because we live in a unwell society, though, right? So [00:06:25] it's creating your own little microculture so that you can get these results, and that's what we're gonna be talking about [00:06:30] today.
[00:06:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:06:31] Shawn Stevenson: Um, because, you know, and th- I just got this hormone [00:06:35] panel done- I
[00:06:35] Dr. Taz: know. We're gonna talk about this ...
[00:06:36] Shawn Stevenson: about a year ago. Crazy. Yeah, I had no idea. I mean, I can tell... Once you [00:06:40] share, but- Okay ... you know, I can tell you how, how I got there.
[00:06:43] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:06:44] Shawn Stevenson: And [00:06:45] also more than, more, more important than anything, my psychology around it and how [00:06:50] I feel, so.
[00:06:52] Dr. Taz: Okay. These are all very important words. Grind, leverage, [00:06:55] psychology, and then hormones, right? So where does the grind mentality [00:07:00] come from for men?
[00:07:02] Shawn Stevenson: You know, there's a part of it that's always been [00:07:05] there, you know, as far as, like, tradition, you know, through different generations, you know, getting up, [00:07:10] going out, and conquering, and, you know, bringing back the food-
[00:07:14] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm
[00:07:14] Shawn Stevenson: and [00:07:15] protecting and all these things are... These are embedded in our DNA, and it- and that's-
[00:07:19] Dr. Taz: And you [00:07:20] feel it.
[00:07:20] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. And that's- Yeah ... it- it's okay. And that's the thing. Like, having these conversations with men and women, I could tell [00:07:25] you I feel it.
[00:07:26] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:07:26] Shawn Stevenson: I have that f- that feeling, and you might have a feeling that's different.
It [00:07:30] might be- Right ... you know, fill in the blank. And I'm not gonna-
[00:07:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:07:32] Shawn Stevenson: I'm not gonna guess, but it might be [00:07:35] to be more nurturing- Yeah ... to be more patient, to bring people together. And it's not to say that [00:07:40] we don't h- both have each of those, but I really feel that drive, [00:07:45] and that drive might push me to sacrifice myself in a different way than [00:07:50] women.
Mm-hmm. Over the years, most of the people that I work with have been women, and I've seen that [00:07:55] self-sacrifice, and this cookie cutter put yourself first. How?
[00:07:59] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:07:59] Shawn Stevenson: You know? [00:08:00] Like- Yeah ... I'm working against my own psychology, and also how our culture is now [00:08:05] constructed as well, there's really no balance. And so, you know, um, so that's there [00:08:10] definitely as a driving force for me.
It's just, like, that DNA part. But also culturally, [00:08:15] we're programmed the same way. We're supposed to do all these things. We're supposed to check o- check [00:08:20] off all these boxes to call ourselves a man.
[00:08:23] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:08:23] Shawn Stevenson: To call ourselves [00:08:25] successful. And, you know, a- again, it's not to [00:08:30] say that it's bad, but just look at the results.
I'm a big results [00:08:35] guy.
[00:08:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:35] Shawn Stevenson: At the end of the day.
[00:08:36] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:08:37] Shawn Stevenson: The way that we've been conditioned, the way that our culture's constructed, [00:08:40] it's not leading to great health outcomes, bottom line.
[00:08:43] Dr. Taz: Well, men are [00:08:45] often... You know, they suffer from cardiovascular disease. They gain weight. We have an [00:08:50] obesity crisis among them, depression, anxiety in the form of alcoholism [00:08:55] or even drug abuse and addictions of all kinds.
And then, of course, the suicide rate in [00:09:00] men is higher than it is in women, for sure. Again, not to make this a sobering [00:09:05] episode, but the other word you use is leverage. What do you mean by that? [00:09:10]
[00:09:11] Shawn Stevenson: You know, it's like Archimedes, you know? Finding that leverage [00:09:15] point and a, a lever long enough in that position, and I can move the world.
And [00:09:20] we have to do that in our own micro world, our own micro environment. [00:09:25] And so, you know, this concept of, you know, doing more and [00:09:30] grinding, and just shifting gears and looking at so what is the counter to that? [00:09:35] Because there i- and by the way, there is room to work hard-
[00:09:37] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:09:37] Shawn Stevenson: for sure. Mm-hmm. Like, that's n- that's [00:09:40] non-negotiable, but that doesn't mean that it has to be something we do all the time.[00:09:45]
Um, and so I wanna share this. One of the things that I really did to kinda stack conditions in my [00:09:50] favor, and if you could, I mean, should we share the results-
[00:09:52] Dr. Taz: Yeah ... right now really quickly? Let's talk about it. So all right, so, [00:09:55] uh, for everybody watching and listening, Shawn sent over his testosterone [00:10:00] levels, right?
That you did recently- Yeah ... I believe.
[00:10:02] Shawn Stevenson: When I was 45.
[00:10:03] Dr. Taz: Can I share the number? A, a year ago. Can I share [00:10:05] the number? Yeah, sure. Okay. So as a, you know, as a functional and integrative physician, I get to look at these labs [00:10:10] all the time, and I've got 20-year-olds, 30-year-olds, 40-year-olds that are [00:10:15] trying to get their testosterone level to a 400.
They're bottoming out for all kinds of [00:10:20] different reasons. And then of course, we have the population in their 40s and 50s. Shawn [00:10:25] sent me today his testosterone level at the age of 46, which is at [00:10:30] 1,038 is I think when I saw the total number as. And no [00:10:35] hormone replacement therapy, correct? Correct. No peptides.
No. [00:10:40] No. No complicated protocols or regimens or stacks- Yeah ... or any [00:10:45] of that type of thing. People would be
[00:10:45] Shawn Stevenson: shocked to find out how-
[00:10:47] Dr. Taz: So- ... rarely I work out ... 1,000 [00:10:50] is high. It's good. Yeah. It's a good high. So help us [00:10:55] with why you are not sucked into this declining testosterone level that is [00:11:00] one of the central tenets of men's health- Yeah
that I'm seeing kind of in the exam room.
[00:11:04] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah, yeah. [00:11:05] And, you know, again, for me, getting the, the, the blood work done, it was more of a [00:11:10] affirmation-
[00:11:10] Dr. Taz: Yeah,
[00:11:10] Shawn Stevenson: of course ... because I know how I feel. Like, I feel like I'm in my 20s. And then I did the whole biological age [00:11:15] and whatnot.
[00:11:15] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:11:15] Shawn Stevenson: And I was about a decade younger.
And so but that's just one aspect, the testosterone piece, [00:11:20] and this is not just about, you know, this kinda masculine-
[00:11:24] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:11:24] Shawn Stevenson: [00:11:25] driven, aggressive. It's not that. It's, it's really one of these elements of how we [00:11:30] feel in our life, in our drive. And- With that being [00:11:35] said, again, yes, there is a place for working hard, building muscle, [00:11:40] training, that kind of stuff.
But I work out, you know, maybe four times a week, [00:11:45] f- maybe 45 minutes as far as, like, strength training.
[00:11:47] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:11:48] Shawn Stevenson: A lot of my [00:11:50] weeks, and it's been like this for decades- Okay ... you know? But a lot of my, lot of my weeks are [00:11:55] dedicated to slowing down-
[00:11:57] Dr. Taz: Mm ...
[00:11:58] Shawn Stevenson: doing the small [00:12:00] thing. And so just to give you a great example, this was just published in the Journal Endr- Endocrinology, [00:12:05] uh, in 2021.
This was just published recently. And so what they found was that [00:12:10] there is a direct deep correlation between the amount of steps we t- [00:12:15] take and our testosterone levels. All right? And that's not something that I would even- [00:12:20] Correlate ... maybe even accept-
[00:12:21] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:12:22] Shawn Stevenson: back when I was in college training- Right ... and training athletes and that kind of [00:12:25] thing.
Right. Just like, walking? Wait, f- for what? Like, it's gonna- Yeah ... take you too long.
[00:12:29] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:12:29] Shawn Stevenson: And so [00:12:30] what the researchers found was that 4,000 steps a day was that minimum effective [00:12:35] dose just to not basically go in reverse.
[00:12:39] Dr. Taz: [00:12:40] Mm.
[00:12:40] Shawn Stevenson: All right? Which is, okay, 4,000 steps a day, a lot of people aren't even getting that.[00:12:45]
But at 8,000 steps a day, there was a notable increase in testosterone [00:12:50] levels for men, and they were looking at middle-aged men.
[00:12:52] Dr. Taz: Hm.
[00:12:52] Shawn Stevenson: All right? And so of [00:12:55] course there's been some controversy around the 10,000 steps a day- Right, right ... and where the origins and this and- Right ... and they did this and [00:13:00] that. But somewhere between 8,000 and 12,000 steps a day is correlated [00:13:05] with higher, uh, levels of testosterone.
And so I just spent a lot of- And
[00:13:09] Dr. Taz: walking-
[00:13:09] Shawn Stevenson: [00:13:10] Yeah ...
[00:13:10] Dr. Taz: guys Just walking. It's just walking. Just walking. Oh my gosh. Walk for your testosterone.
[00:13:13] Shawn Stevenson: And but it's not just that [00:13:15] it's magic. Yeah. It's because it's improving insulin sensitivity.
[00:13:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:13:19] Shawn Stevenson: It's [00:13:20] because it's helping to mobilize body fat for fuel. [00:13:25] When we are training and doing the, the more, uh, difficult stuff, the high intensity interval training kind of [00:13:30] stuff, it's very glycolytic.
[00:13:31] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:31] Shawn Stevenson: You know? And it's not to say that we don't, don't burn fat, but our bodies have [00:13:35] trained, have evolved to use certain fuels at certain times.
[00:13:38] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:39] Shawn Stevenson: And so [00:13:40] it's going to go through this process of breaking down stored glycogen, you know, the food [00:13:45] maybe that you just had recently. This
[00:13:46] Dr. Taz: is the heavy lifting you're talking
[00:13:47] Shawn Stevenson: about- Yeah
and the grinding. Strength training. Yeah. Okay. Moving [00:13:50] quickly. Yep. And those things are awesome. And then we do have the afterburn effect where you are burning fat, [00:13:55] uh, residually. But when you're walking, which is so interesting- [00:14:00] Our bodies, we've evolved over thousands of years to be very good at using [00:14:05] stored body fat when you're just walking leisurely.
[00:14:07] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:14:07] Shawn Stevenson: Or even a brisk walk. Our bodies know [00:14:10] to just, "Let me go and g- grab this fat for fuel." You know? This isn't something that's very [00:14:15] intense. And so that kinda speaks to this parasympathetic tone as well [00:14:20] and how rarely we're in that state today. A lot of [00:14:25] us are in this fight or flight, cortisol, adrenaline.
Great in spots.
[00:14:29] Dr. Taz: [00:14:30] Right.
[00:14:30] Shawn Stevenson: But chronically, we're gonna be storing more fat.
[00:14:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:14:32] Shawn Stevenson: It's gonna be causing havoc with [00:14:35] our testosterone levels, right? Cortisol can have some ... [00:14:40] Um, why am I thinking about the Beat It video? Michael Jackson, like- Yeah ... the gangs. Yeah,
[00:14:44] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:14:44] Shawn Stevenson: It [00:14:45] can have some gang war with your sex hormones.
Your body,
[00:14:47] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:14:48] Shawn Stevenson: You know? And so this [00:14:50] speaks to, again, why walking is so powerful. And in that same vein with [00:14:55] the, uh, insulin sensitivity- Even one of the things, you might [00:15:00] even p- be, your body might be making testosterone, but it could, it, it could be getting aromatized
[00:15:04] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ... [00:15:05]
[00:15:05] Shawn Stevenson: right? It can be g- getting converted into estrogen, right?
Aromatization, primary driver of [00:15:10] that is high insulin levels.
[00:15:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:15:12] Shawn Stevenson: Right? And so again, we're just addressing so many [00:15:15] things just by- Just by walking ... going on a simple walk, especially if we [00:15:20] have the capacity to do this outside.
[00:15:22] Dr. Taz: If you're listening to this and thinking, [00:15:25] "I know something is off in my body, but I don't know where to start," [00:15:30] this is for you.
That's why I created the Circle. The Circle is my [00:15:35] private community where I and my team focus on understanding your body from hormones [00:15:40] and stress to metabolic health and longevity with real-life guidance that you can [00:15:45] actually use. This is about clarity and consistency and support [00:15:50] beyond the exam room and maybe outside of all the different appointments and experts that [00:15:55] you've been running around to.
You can try the Circle with a one-month trial using the [00:16:00] promo code podcast at wholeplus.co/circle. Again, [00:16:05] that's Whole Plus,
wholeplus.co/circle. [00:16:10] All right, let's jump back into the episode.
So this is so interesting 'cause I've, again, [00:16:15] like I was saying, I've looked at so many labs with so many men over the years, and one of the things [00:16:20] I'll tell them is that, 'cause most of them want testosterone, right?
That's kinda the end [00:16:25] game. They want testosterone replacement therapy in some form or fashion. [00:16:30] But cortisol being high and something called an RT3 [00:16:35] being high and estrone, which is a stored form of estrogen, being high, [00:16:40] I will tell them that testosterone is not the right first step, that we actually have to work on [00:16:45] bringing that cortisol level down first- Hmm
before we can think about, you know, any type of [00:16:50] hormone replacement therapy. And it's a concept that sometimes gets perceived and sometimes does [00:16:55] not. You know, why, what would you tell men listening to the show today [00:17:00] or their wives or whoever who, you know, who may pass this on to them, you know, how can they [00:17:05] tell when they are in a high cortisol state?
[00:17:07] Shawn Stevenson: Hmm. Wow. [00:17:10] You know, there's a couple of things going around social media now, the cortisol face- [00:17:15] Yes.
[00:17:15] Dr. Taz: Yes,
[00:17:15] Shawn Stevenson: yes, yes ... and also the cortisol belly. There's more [00:17:20] receptor sites for cortisol located around that [00:17:25] midsection. Mm-hmm. And a- again, this could be a survival, uh, adaptation.
[00:17:28] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:17:29] Shawn Stevenson: And [00:17:30] so if you find that you're storing more belly fat, [00:17:35] and by the way, it can go the opposite as well.
Like, you could be just kinda taking it [00:17:40] o- taking some time off, chilling, just feeling more relaxed, and you notice, like, "Dang, like I'm l- looking a little [00:17:45] leaner."
[00:17:45] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:17:45] Shawn Stevenson: You know? So th- those are a couple of things, but also you'll notice in [00:17:50] your, in your temperament, in your energy as well. Now here's the crazy part.
When I got those [00:17:55] labs done, that was after the most difficult year of my adult [00:18:00] life.
[00:18:00] Dr. Taz: What?
[00:18:01] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:18:02] Dr. Taz: Assuming high cortisol.
[00:18:03] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. [00:18:05] Yes. I had my practices though. I had my practices to keep me afloat.
[00:18:09] Dr. Taz: [00:18:10] Yeah.
[00:18:10] Shawn Stevenson: But I, I gotta tell you, even shortly thereafter, it kind of like, [00:18:15] even, even me, like I had a breaking point where I was just like kinda done, you know?
And I really had to scale it back [00:18:20] and get more into this parasympathetic, more into the relaxation. I was still [00:18:25] training, I was still meditating, I was still walking regularly, which I'm gonna share some of these [00:18:30] insights.
[00:18:30] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:18:31] Shawn Stevenson: But we all have a breaking point, and a lot of guys aren't, aren't trying to [00:18:35] hear that.
[00:18:35] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:35] Shawn Stevenson: You know, especially when you're talking about addressing stress, it's just like that, [00:18:40] that's just life. That's a part of life. Stress, and there's some great science [00:18:45] on, on stress now. We need stress, right? The hormetic stressors. It makes us [00:18:50] better if we are, if we heal from it. That's the key.
[00:18:53] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:54] Shawn Stevenson: [00:18:55] Today, if you wanna think about it like, um... Because I know for me, I didn't think that I was [00:19:00] excessively stressed because I wasn't stressed at work, quote, "At work," 'cause I love what I do.
[00:19:03] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:19:04] Shawn Stevenson: Right?
[00:19:04] Dr. Taz: [00:19:05] Right.
[00:19:05] Shawn Stevenson: But it's not just that stress. If you think about your biology, just picture [00:19:10] yourself, maybe you take your, the top of your head off, and like [00:19:15] all of these stress inputs are going in, right?
So you got your work stress, sure. Then you, then you got [00:19:20] relationship stress, then you've got financial stress, then you've got food [00:19:25] stress.
[00:19:25] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:25] Shawn Stevenson: Then you've got exercise stress, which again, could be a good stressor, but what [00:19:30] happens if I'm training for a marathon on top of all the other stuff?
[00:19:32] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:19:33] Shawn Stevenson: Right? We've got, [00:19:35] um, emotional stress. We've got spiritual stress. Like what if you don't feel like you are [00:19:40] in alignment or on, on your purpose, or that you matter, you know? And so all [00:19:45] of these things are going in, and our overall s- sleep. You know, sleep deprivation, another stress input. [00:19:50] And so that's where the system can break down.
And for me, it was a lot of changes at once.
[00:19:54] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:54] Shawn Stevenson: This [00:19:55] whole like midlife crisis stuff-
[00:19:56] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:19:56] Shawn Stevenson: I used to hear about- Yeah ... or like a John Mayer song- It's real. ... you know, like a [00:20:00] quarter-life crisis.
[00:20:00] Dr. Taz: Quarter-life crisis, yep.
[00:20:01] Shawn Stevenson: What I found is that it's because of so many changes [00:20:05] at once with the generations on either side of you.
[00:20:07] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:20:08] Shawn Stevenson: Right? So my father passed.
[00:20:09] Dr. Taz: [00:20:10] Oh.
[00:20:10] Shawn Stevenson: My wife's father passed. My oldest son moved out. Kinda not, again, [00:20:15] not in the pl- not in the plan. It wasn't as graceful of a move out. [00:20:20] Um, and this is just amidst a, a thousand other things seemingly happening at one time. Right. And I [00:20:25] was able to persevere through it, and that's the thing.
Like a lot of men, I took it all upon myself, [00:20:30] because my wife was really torn up about all of it.
[00:20:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:20:32] Shawn Stevenson: Like 10X more than me.
[00:20:33] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:20:34] Shawn Stevenson: [00:20:35] And I was just carrying like, "Everybody get on my back. We're gonna, we're gonna keep going forward."
[00:20:39] Dr. Taz: Yeah,
[00:20:39] Shawn Stevenson: yeah. [00:20:40] Until I just, I couldn't carry everybody
[00:20:41] Dr. Taz: anymore. Mm.
[00:20:43] Shawn Stevenson: And so, but grateful- [00:20:45] thankfully, doing this work over the years, I, I have a tendency to [00:20:50] learn lessons really quickly.
And so, you know, to, just to circle everything [00:20:55] back The strength training is absolutely critical. And [00:21:00] it's not... And Har- some Harvard researchers found that this also helps to build mental, mental resilience-
[00:21:04] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:21:04] Shawn Stevenson: [00:21:05] in a controlled setting, which you can then bring out into your day-to-day life. You just feel more strong [00:21:10] and capable.
Not to mention the insulin sensitivity, not to [00:21:15] mention the myokines and all the stuff that we're talking, uh, you know, learning about today. [00:21:20] Um, not to mention that muscle is really a reservoir. Muscle fun- mu- muscle is an endocrine [00:21:25] organ. You know, this, I was not taught this in my university education. Yeah,
[00:21:28] Dr. Taz: none of us were.
Yeah.
[00:21:28] Shawn Stevenson: Right? And so this is... [00:21:30] But here's the thing. This is an endocrine organ we can directly control [00:21:35] if we use it, if we contract our muscles. So there is a place for that. And [00:21:40] so that piece, we, we absolutely need, but it's [00:21:45] le- far less than you think. Yeah. You don't need to be hanging out at the gym all the time.
Yeah. As a matter of fact, some of the people I see at the [00:21:50] gym, they're there before me and after me. They're not really- They're not getting the
[00:21:54] Dr. Taz: results
[00:21:54] Shawn Stevenson: You know what I mean? They... Yeah, [00:21:55] yeah. Yeah,
[00:21:55] Dr. Taz: I
[00:21:55] Shawn Stevenson: got it. I'll say it. You know?
[00:21:56] Dr. Taz: It's...
[00:21:56] Shawn Stevenson: So, but for me, I'm a big guy of stacking [00:22:00] conditions, so I mentioned the walking and I mentioned doing it outside.
[00:22:02] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:22:02] Shawn Stevenson: And this is one of the [00:22:05] most overlooked, and also this could kinda parry into the biohacking [00:22:10] medium.
[00:22:10] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:22:11] Shawn Stevenson: And I recently... Well, this was when I first moved to, to [00:22:15] LA. I spoke at the, the big biohacking event. Like, I was one of the keynote speakers, and they brought [00:22:20] me in for common sense.
[00:22:21] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:22:22] Shawn Stevenson: Right?
Yeah. Because there's all these fancy things and the [00:22:25] self-quantification and all these devices and tactics and... But sometimes you just need to go [00:22:30] outside.
[00:22:30] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:22:30] Shawn Stevenson: You know, a lot of these guys are, like, paying for this, you know, I don't know, [00:22:35] $100,000 red light therapy bed.
[00:22:37] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:22:38] Shawn Stevenson: But they don't even go outside- Right
and, you [00:22:40] know, actually get real sunlight. And so the reason I mention doing it outside, because you can stack conditions [00:22:45] with the walk and getting some sun exposure Thank [00:22:50] goodness. And again, I'm just gonna bring it down since we're talking about testosterone. [00:22:55] Cholesterol in our bodies-
[00:22:58] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:22:59] Shawn Stevenson: [00:23:00] sun's rays, vitamin...
I, I'm sorry, U- UVB-
[00:23:03] Dr. Taz: Yep ...
[00:23:03] Shawn Stevenson: converts this into our [00:23:05] sex hormones. All right? This is just one of the primary channels for our bodies to actually make our sex [00:23:10] hormones. We need some sun exposure. This is not saying to go out and spend [00:23:15] hours in the sun, and you have no- you haven't built up that capacity- Right ... of course.
Right. Be safe, be [00:23:20] smart, but this is the reason we have life on this planet, you know? So [00:23:25] keep it in context. We need sun exposure to produce our sex hormones. And [00:23:30] so for me, if I can get a 20, 20 to 30-minute walk in each day outside, [00:23:35] get some sunlight, it's just stacking conditions for me. And, um, no matter [00:23:40] where we are...
And by the way, I'm from Missouri.
[00:23:41] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:23:41] Shawn Stevenson: All right? I grew up in St. Louis, born and raised. [00:23:45] I know what it's like to have those long winters as well. And so we do the best that we can, [00:23:50] especially when, when we have access, so in the spring, in the fall, in the summer, safely get in some sun [00:23:55] exposure. And I'm not saying that we can store it per se, but we can definitely build [00:24:00] up our levels of vitamin D and, and our sex hormones as well.[00:24:05]
And so that's another one of those things that's very simple, free. [00:24:10]
[00:24:10] Dr. Taz: Easy to do- It's so- ...
[00:24:10] Shawn Stevenson: anywhere
[00:24:11] Dr. Taz: you go. Yeah ...
[00:24:12] Shawn Stevenson: simple and free [00:24:15] And there's no supplement that's more powerful than getting adequate sun exposure. There's [00:24:20] nothing. And with that being said, one other piece to add [00:24:25] to the mix- Yep ... and then over there, there are some other things too, but- Yep,
[00:24:26] Dr. Taz: yep, yep
[00:24:27] Shawn Stevenson: um, so the strength training piece, [00:24:30] um, walking, the sun exposure, and the stress management piece. [00:24:35] And so there's some really interesting data emerging on [00:24:40] the power of meditation in this context of, [00:24:45] uh, the immunomodulation, right? This psychoneuroimmunology, [00:24:50] psychoneuroendocrinology, and helping to put us in more of an anabolic state.[00:24:55]
So again, this could look like testosterone. This could look like just improved, [00:25:00] uh, overall endocrine function, and this is by sitting our [00:25:05] behinds down and just being quiet. That's one form of meditation, of course. There's moving [00:25:10] meditations, there's standing meditations, there's mindfulness practices, but this is speaking [00:25:15] to f- making the decision to find out what works best for you [00:25:20] right now.
[00:25:20] Dr. Taz: So being in a parasympathetic state, as you've said, is one of the keys [00:25:25] to improving cortisol and testosterone levels, which are linked together. [00:25:30] That's... I think that's a message that we don't want our audience to lose, that those concepts are linked [00:25:35] together. Being in a parasympathetic state means to be in [00:25:40] a meditative, lower stress- Yes
lower cortisol state. You talk a lot about [00:25:45] you already had these tools in place when, when kind of the rubber hit the road, so to speak. [00:25:50] W- walk us through a day in your life. Like, what do you do when you wake up in the morning, [00:25:55] and as you move throughout the day or even throughout a week? What are some of the core tenets that you [00:26:00] try to hold onto?
[00:26:01] Shawn Stevenson: I love that. And just a, a little quick, super quick [00:26:05] caveat.
[00:26:05] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:26:05] Shawn Stevenson: When I was struggling with all that craziness-
[00:26:08] Dr. Taz: Yep ...
[00:26:08] Shawn Stevenson: I fell [00:26:10] out of some of my routines. Not all.
[00:26:12] Dr. Taz: Which I think is normal.
[00:26:13] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. And that, that [00:26:15] was so transformative for me when I added some things back in. But, and they even looked [00:26:20] different, you know, which I'll talk about in a second.
So my morning routine I've been doing pretty much for over [00:26:25] 20 years. Uh, first thing I do when I get up in the morning is I drink maybe [00:26:30] 25 to 30 liters of water. I've been doing that for o- again, over two [00:26:35] decades, and it's very intentional. And many of my colleagues have now kinda [00:26:40] championed that message.
Mm-hmm. I call it an inner bath.
[00:26:41] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:42] Shawn Stevenson: And- Ooh,
[00:26:43] Dr. Taz: I like that, the inner bath.
[00:26:44] Shawn Stevenson: [00:26:45] Yeah. Mm-hmm. It's just like we take a bath or a shower for our, our outer-
[00:26:48] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:26:49] Shawn Stevenson: self. Isn't the [00:26:50] inside more important?
[00:26:50] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:26:51] Shawn Stevenson: And so when we wake up in the morning, this is a time we are, [00:26:55] um, going the longest without hydration, and our bodies are [00:27:00] doing literally billions of processes.
Billions [00:27:05] of metabolic processes are happening with our trillions of cells and helping to repair [00:27:10] us and make us better, and there's a lot of metabolic waste that's accumulated. And [00:27:15] so also you'll notice, like, your urine is more concentrated- Mm-hmm ... when you wake up in the morning. Mm-hmm. And so how about I help my [00:27:20] body along?
And one of those things is our brains, right? The glymphatic system is 10 times [00:27:25] more active when we are sleeping, which is the... A big part of it is the immune [00:27:30] system and pruning, regulation of cle- kinda cleaning house [00:27:35] with the brain, making room for more growth.
[00:27:36] Dr. Taz: So what's the glymphatic system, for anybody that doesn't know?
[00:27:38] Shawn Stevenson: The glymphatic system, the gl- [00:27:40] this is a shout-out to the glial cells- Yep ... that help to run it, but the lymphatic system [00:27:45] is the rest of the body, right? And so this is kind of the extracellular waste management system. And [00:27:50] so this also has a lot to do with our immune cells as well. And the, th- there's a blood-brain [00:27:55] barrier.
Your brain has its own kind of dedicated cleaning system, pruning [00:28:00] system, and regulatory system when it comes to the immune, immune system, and that's run [00:28:05] by the glial cells. So it's the glymphatic system. And so basically, one of the things that we [00:28:10] see is it, it's kind of making more room. If... And that's a, it's [00:28:15] a rudimentary-
[00:28:15] Dr. Taz: Almost like a detox.
Like a-
[00:28:16] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. It's- ...
[00:28:16] Dr. Taz: like
[00:28:16] Shawn Stevenson: a
[00:28:17] Dr. Taz: detox or a reboot or a [00:28:20] computer resetting or something like that.
[00:28:21] Shawn Stevenson: It's a rudimentary way to put it.
[00:28:23] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:28:23] Shawn Stevenson: But our brains are [00:28:25] kind of, with the glymphatic system being 10 times more active while we're sleeping, making pathways and room [00:28:30] for toxins to get, metabolic waste to get out of the brain.
And [00:28:35] so again, all this stuff needs to come out of your system. And drinking some water is [00:28:40] gonna help to flush out, you know, all the, all the good stuff, or not good stuff. So that's [00:28:45] number one. Number two, simply drinking water, we get a boost to [00:28:50] our metabolism. And so one of the studies, and I talked about this, uh, you know, a few years back in my [00:28:55] book Eat Smarter.
So it was this really fascinating study. They had, uh, test subjects drink [00:29:00] 17 ounces of water with- just within a couple of minutes. Mm-hmm. And they had a [00:29:05] significant increase in their metabolic rate to where they were burning, like, 30 more calories an hour. Now, [00:29:10] that's a short-term thing, but the question is why?
It's not because your body's heating the [00:29:15] water up. It didn't matter the water temperature. It's just helping everything to run more efficiently, [00:29:20] right? And so just getting up, getting that metabolic boost, little housecleaning. I drink [00:29:25] water, uh, then I read every day. And, and, uh, this morning I was reading...
[00:29:30] What was I reading this morning? I was reading Stress Resets-
[00:29:33] Dr. Taz: Okay ...
[00:29:34] Shawn Stevenson: for an interview I [00:29:35] have coming up. And my son came downstairs. He was getting ready for basketball practice, and he's [00:29:40] reading, um, the Mamba Mentality book-
[00:29:43] Dr. Taz: Ooh, yeah ...
[00:29:44] Shawn Stevenson: from Kobe [00:29:45] Bryant. Yeah. And again, these practices I love. I didn't tell him to do it.
[00:29:48] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:29:48] Shawn Stevenson: You know, he just [00:29:50] sort of, started, uh, started mirroring me. And so I'll, I'll read for [00:29:55] 20, 30 minutes. I'm sorry- 15 to 20 minutes
[00:29:58] Dr. Taz: Okay ...
[00:29:59] Shawn Stevenson: and [00:30:00] then I'll do some meditation. So if he's up around that time, [00:30:05] we'll do, like, a short meditation together, so maybe, like-
[00:30:07] Dr. Taz: And you can... And he's engaged in this meditation with you?
[00:30:09] Shawn Stevenson: [00:30:10] Yeah, he's been meditating since he was- Oh,
[00:30:11] Dr. Taz: amazing ...
[00:30:11] Shawn Stevenson: uh, I don't know, maybe two.
[00:30:13] Dr. Taz: Okay. Two?
[00:30:14] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. [00:30:15]
[00:30:15] Dr. Taz: Two? Yeah.
[00:30:16] Shawn Stevenson: Yes. Geez. But same as my wife. Yeah. My wife has been meditating since [00:30:20] she was about two.
[00:30:20] Dr. Taz: Oh my
[00:30:21] Shawn Stevenson: gosh. And was... Shout out to my mom-in-law. She's the one. Ah.
[00:30:23] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Wow. Uh-huh.
[00:30:24] Shawn Stevenson: And she's [00:30:25] d- done, taught so many different types of meditations over the years.
She changed my life, really. Oh,
[00:30:29] Dr. Taz: [00:30:30] wow. Uh-huh.
[00:30:30] Shawn Stevenson: So, um, anyway, so I'll... If it's with him, maybe it's like a 10-minute meditation, but [00:30:35] today I went and did a longer meditation myself, did some breathing practices- Mm-hmm ... like some, [00:30:40] uh, the ca- chaotic breathing- Mm-hmm ... and some humming. And what's fascin- even the [00:30:45] humming, nitric oxide boosts.
Oh,
yeah.
[00:30:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:30:46] Shawn Stevenson: Right? Yeah. So again, we're looking at this performance, we're looking at this [00:30:50] connection with testosterone. Who knew? Mm. If you could just hum. Mm. And why are these monks being weird and [00:30:55] humming? Like, it's just- Right. So I, I did that for maybe it was, like, 20, about [00:31:00] 20-minute meditation.
[00:31:00] Dr. Taz: So this is, what?
An hour into your day now, right?
[00:31:03] Shawn Stevenson: Yep.
[00:31:03] Dr. Taz: About an hour into the morning.
[00:31:04] Shawn Stevenson: Just about
[00:31:04] Dr. Taz: an hour. Yep. [00:31:05] Okay.
[00:31:05] Shawn Stevenson: And then I'll get outside really quickly, quick 10-minute walk. And so all of that [00:31:10] is about an hour to s- to start my day. And then I start my day-
[00:31:14] Dr. Taz: So you do all that in the morning, [00:31:15] including the 10-minute walk?
[00:31:16] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah.
[00:31:16] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:31:16] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. I get outside, really rain or shine. [00:31:20] And it's a lot easier now, real talk to- Yeah ... when I'm in LA- Yeah ... it is,
[00:31:23] Dr. Taz: for
[00:31:24] Shawn Stevenson: sure. Yeah, I know, right? For [00:31:25] sure. I know, yeah. But even in St. Louis, you know, I would get outside. Yeah. You know, even if I just go outside and just [00:31:30] stand- Yeah ... in the cold- Yeah ... you know, for a little bit, just to get exposure to the environment.
[00:31:34] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:31:34] Shawn Stevenson: [00:31:35] You know? And, um, but at that point, my wife is probably up. She, you know, [00:31:40] we have those different- Yeah ... uh, sleep temperaments. Schedules. Yep, okay. You know?
[00:31:43] Dr. Taz: And- So
[00:31:44] Shawn Stevenson: she
[00:31:44] Dr. Taz: sleeps in a little bit [00:31:45] longer, I'm guessing.
[00:31:45] Shawn Stevenson: Oh, if it's up to her- Okay. Okay ... she's been doing that since we met. Yeah. We've been together for 22 years.
Yeah. [00:31:50] So she's up and she's ready for coffee, so I'll make her coffee [00:31:55] and, um, you know, help with my son's breakfast and, you know, then I get to work.
[00:31:58] Dr. Taz: Off to your day. Yeah. So you've [00:32:00] got the, this dedicated morning-
[00:32:01] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah ...
[00:32:02] Dr. Taz: that you get to almost every morning?
[00:32:04] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah, [00:32:05] except during that struggle period. Mm. I, I was rarely meditating.
The main [00:32:10] thing, the main thing that I needed that helped me the most, I just- You, you left ... like, put on [00:32:15] pause.
[00:32:15] Dr. Taz: So, you know, we started talking about grind and, and leverage and [00:32:20] psychology. You had your own health crisis that probably moved you [00:32:25] along your journey. What is the psychology that we need to be thinking [00:32:30] about when it comes to men's health, and how did you learn it through your experience?[00:32:35]
[00:32:35] Shawn Stevenson: Uh, another thing we struggled to do was to ask for help
[00:32:37] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:32:38] Shawn Stevenson: Or to even [00:32:40] acknowledge when we are not okay. And, you know, for me, [00:32:45] I was a high-level athlete with all these aspirations [00:32:50] of, you know, scholarships and all those things, and my body just started falling apart. And I literally [00:32:55] have game films at home where I'm...
You know, I break away, I was a running back-
[00:32:59] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:32:59] Shawn Stevenson: and I'm [00:33:00] past the safety, and I just fall. Like, I'm f- five yards from the [00:33:05] end zone and I fall because I tore a hamstring at 14 or- Yeah ... 15 years old.
[00:33:09] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:33:09] Shawn Stevenson: [00:33:10] Like, my body was falling apart. And at track practice when I was 15 years old, I [00:33:15] was doing a 200 meter time trial, and I ran a 4.5 40.
Like, that's, like, [00:33:20] solid NFL time, when I was 15. But at track practice, running that 200 [00:33:25] meter time trial, I broke my hip just running.
[00:33:27] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:27] Shawn Stevenson: Like, when you think of [00:33:30] someone breaking their hip, that's... You usually think of somebody much, much older.
[00:33:32] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:33:33] Shawn Stevenson: And [00:33:35] also probably m- more likely to happen with women.
And [00:33:40] so I was definitely... Uh, my hormones were definitely not like they are now [00:33:45] to, to, to put it bluntly. And what I experienced was standard of care, you know? Um, [00:33:50] "Here's some NSAIDs. Stay off the leg." Uh, I- they did give me [00:33:55] ultrasound treatment, which is fascinating- Hmm ... back then.
[00:33:56] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:33:57] Shawn Stevenson: Um, and that was that. [00:34:00] You know, "You're a kid.
You'll heal."
[00:34:01] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:34:01] Shawn Stevenson: But nobody stopped to ask, "How did a kid break his hip- Right ... from simply running?" [00:34:05]
[00:34:05] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:34:05] Shawn Stevenson: And about a half a dozen more injuries happened until I [00:34:10] finally get diagnosed with degenerative disc disease. And it basic-
[00:34:13] Dr. Taz: Did that take you out of your football [00:34:15] game?
[00:34:15] Shawn Stevenson: Oh, man. It was already a wrap for that.
Oh. You know, I went to college and I- Yeah. Yeah. [00:34:20] So I, I just... I struggled just to even get out of bed sometimes. I was in [00:34:25] pain. And I didn't... Getting that [00:34:30] diagnosis, especially when you've worked so hard, like, I was the first person in my family to go to college-
[00:34:34] Dr. Taz: [00:34:35] Yeah ...
[00:34:35] Shawn Stevenson: let alone work to graduate, um, I got per- a permission slip [00:34:40] once I got that diagnosis that I could stop fighting and nobody would blame me.
[00:34:44] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:34:44] Shawn Stevenson: You [00:34:45] know?
[00:34:45] Dr. Taz: So you were in the grind.
[00:34:46] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah, I was grinding. I was- Yeah ... it was, like, literally me against the world a [00:34:50] lot of times, the way it felt.
[00:34:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:34:51] Shawn Stevenson: And, you know, this gave me... Literally, I got a permission slip. [00:34:55] You know, "You don't have to work." You know, "You... Here's this medication." And [00:35:00] so I just kinda gave up, and this was...
I was 20 years old.
[00:35:03] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:35:04] Shawn Stevenson: [00:35:05] And my grandma kept checking on me And she's the one who [00:35:10] really imprinted on me at a young age that, you know, I mattered, that I was gonna do something special [00:35:15] with my life. Um, I was her first grand baby, so you know, it's kinda [00:35:20] special relationship. Yeah.
[00:35:21] Dr. Taz: Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:22] Shawn Stevenson: And she was calling and checking on me, [00:35:25] and it was annoying.
Yeah. It was like, "I'm fine, Grandma." Yeah. Like, uh, what do you, like-
[00:35:29] Dr. Taz: What do you want? [00:35:30] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:35:31] Shawn Stevenson: But she knew that I wasn't okay.
[00:35:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:35:33] Shawn Stevenson: But just those touch points eventually got through. [00:35:35] Made
[00:35:35] Dr. Taz: a difference.
[00:35:36] Shawn Stevenson: And I, and I always encourage people [00:35:40] to, especially when you get a really bad bill of goods, you know, ma- consider getting, [00:35:45] um, uh, another, uh, perspective about it.
And so I [00:35:50] did. I sought out some other physicians, and they all gave me the same diagnosis. Like, you have the spine of an [00:35:55] 80-year-old. Mm-hmm. This is incurable. You know, the, the degeneration, my discs [00:36:00] were black, like two of my- Gosh ... lower disc.
[00:36:02] Dr. Taz: Yeah. '
[00:36:02] Shawn Stevenson: Cause they were so degenerated. Now, [00:36:05] the light is shining through them.
Ah. You know, they're more supple- Yeah ... which is cra- Now we know this stuff [00:36:10] now. Right. But this was back in m- two, around 2000. Yeah. 1999, 2000.
[00:36:14] Dr. Taz: [00:36:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:15] Shawn Stevenson: And it's so unfortunate because of the nocebo [00:36:20] effect.
[00:36:20] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:21] Shawn Stevenson: Right? I went into my trusting ph- trusted physician, and he told me [00:36:25] that this was something I couldn't do anything about.
[00:36:26] Dr. Taz: And you believed
[00:36:26] Shawn Stevenson: it. And I believed him. And I had, like, more of a nuisance of a pain, [00:36:30] occasionally be diff- it'd be difficult to get around, to chronic debilitating pain within a matter of [00:36:35] weeks. And because it was painful just to move, I stopped moving. And [00:36:40] so I sat on my college apartment love seat, [00:36:45] which my wife, when she met me two years later, once I had [00:36:50] reversed the condition w- you know, I was being of service, but she still saw this really shitty couch.[00:36:55]
Mm. And I got so heavy, I actually broke through the wood of [00:37:00] the couch, and, like, it cracked, and so there were pillows underneath the c- cushion I
[00:37:03] Dr. Taz: can't
[00:37:03] Shawn Stevenson: see you like that. Yeah. Gosh. It's [00:37:05] so crazy. Yes. Yeah. And sh- I have her, 'cause I have the proof. Right. I never got a picture of this-
[00:37:09] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:37:09] Shawn Stevenson: disgusting [00:37:10] couch.
Yeah. I don't even know... She had no business messing with me- Right ... to be honest. But, um, you know, [00:37:15] I, I, I didn't... I started to not even recognize myself-
[00:37:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[00:37:19] Shawn Stevenson: as well.
[00:37:19] Dr. Taz: [00:37:20] Yeah.
[00:37:20] Shawn Stevenson: And that combination of giving up, of not [00:37:25] accepting help, and of [00:37:30] relenting to, you know, not do anything was just, like, the killer combination for me.
[00:37:34] Dr. Taz: [00:37:35] Mm.
[00:37:35] Shawn Stevenson: And so after seeing the final physician that I went to see, and he, again, [00:37:40] well, really huge heart, but he told me there's nothing I could do. I went home. Uh, [00:37:45] he gave me another... Every time I leave, I'd get another prescription. Celebrex. Vioxx [00:37:50] was hot at the time, by the way, which ended up killing people.
[00:37:53] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:37:53] Shawn Stevenson: I was just a prescription pad away [00:37:55] from that, but Celebrex, and then I end up getting restless leg syndrome from the Celebrex. Oh my
[00:37:58] Dr. Taz: gosh.
[00:37:59] Shawn Stevenson: And [00:38:00] then I took over-the-counter Tylenol PM with that, and it's just, like, this cocktail. [00:38:05] Like, I just kept adding another drug, but I was not getting better. And [00:38:10] I was sitting on the side of my bed looking at this pill bottle, and, uh, just to [00:38:15] be honest, like, I, I got pissed.
Like, I don't know if that's the [00:38:20] right word, but just, like, I was sad, but also I was angry.
[00:38:23] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:38:23] Shawn Stevenson: Because I [00:38:25] imagined the doctor who wrote me this, like, he's at home, like, with his kids, and they're sitting [00:38:30] around this... I just had this vision of, like, a movie scene. Like, "Pass the potatoes," and, like, they're [00:38:35] having this great...
And I'm by myself in pain.
[00:38:37] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:38:38] Shawn Stevenson: And he wasn't thinking [00:38:40] about me, and I was here in this suffering by myself. And I thought about my grandmother [00:38:45] and all of the hope [00:38:50] and the love that she instilled in me to do something great with my life and not given up. And [00:38:55] so I decided in that moment No matter what, I'm going to do [00:39:00] something to feel better.
And it s- it was something so small- Yeah ... because the whole time I'd just been [00:39:05] like, "Why me? Why won't anybody help me? Why is this happening to [00:39:10] me?" And I asked for the first time, "What can I do to feel better?" I had [00:39:15] not asked that question in two years. And it's a process called [00:39:20] instinctive elaboration in the brain, like your brain will find answers to the things that you ask.
[00:39:24] Dr. Taz: [00:39:25] Mm.
[00:39:25] Shawn Stevenson: And so I put a plan together. I just, the little rudimentary thing on [00:39:30] paper. I was going to lose weight. You know, I was gonna like start a diet, [00:39:35] which at the time was SlimFast, which was crazy. Oh my
[00:39:36] Dr. Taz: God.
[00:39:37] Shawn Stevenson: Yes. Oh, God. I didn't know shit. [00:39:40] And I was gonna go to the gym tomorrow- Yeah ... even though I was in pain.
Yeah. I was just gonna go and just ride the [00:39:45] bike.
[00:39:45] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:39:45] Shawn Stevenson: The, the, uh, recumbent bike.
[00:39:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:39:47] Shawn Stevenson: And those were my first two [00:39:50] steps, because those are the things I had kind of exposure to.
[00:39:53] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:39:53] Shawn Stevenson: And so I got up the [00:39:55] next day, and I felt good. Just getting up in the morning for the first time in years.
[00:39:59] Dr. Taz: It's a [00:40:00] mindset shift.
[00:40:00] Shawn Stevenson: It's a mindset shift. Like, I felt hope. I felt this energy.
[00:40:04] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:40:04] Shawn Stevenson: I [00:40:05] went to the gym. It was not easy. It was difficult walking around the sciatic pain. My, like my leg would not [00:40:10] extend properly. And so I just got on the bike, which was difficult. I just did [00:40:15] maybe, you know, 15... I'm sorry, like 5, 10 minutes on the bike.
Walked around the [00:40:20] tr- it was an indoors tiny track a little bit- Yeah ... and then took my ass home [00:40:25] and, uh, started my SlimFast diet. Mm-hmm. A shake for breakfast, one for lunch- Yeah, I remember ... and a sensible dinner.
[00:40:29] Dr. Taz: Yes.
[00:40:29] Shawn Stevenson: [00:40:30] Trash. It was so gross. And, um, and, and I started feeling better [00:40:35] each day. Thankfully, the SlimFast thing- Went away
[00:40:39] Dr. Taz: stopped. [00:40:40] Okay.
[00:40:40] Shawn Stevenson: Because I had a friend. I had somebody who reach, was [00:40:45] reaching out to me this whole time that I was just like, you know, like, you know, just kind of, um, turning [00:40:50] down to connect.
[00:40:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:40:51] Shawn Stevenson: And they were in chiropractic school. And so [00:40:55] she took me... We were going somewhere, but she stopped at Wild Oats, which has since been bought by Whole Foods.
It's kind of like [00:41:00] more of like a mom and pop vibe.
[00:41:01] Dr. Taz: Yeah, yeah.
[00:41:02] Shawn Stevenson: And I went into the store and I'm just like, "What [00:41:05] the... What is all this stuff?" You know? They had grass. They were [00:41:10] making wheat grass and all this stuff. Yeah. I'm just like, "This is so weird." But I went over to the books and there was like [00:41:15] this, um, it's called The Nutrition Prescription.
[00:41:17] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:17] Shawn Stevenson: Like, and it had all these s- these [00:41:20] peer-reviewed references, like these studies. And I'm just like, "This has studies?" Like, and I went and looked at my [00:41:25] condition, the degenerative disc disease, and there was a study on [00:41:30] omega-3 deficiency-
[00:41:30] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:41:31] Shawn Stevenson: and, uh, degeneration of the, of the, of the intervertebral [00:41:35] disc, but also, um, hip fractures.
And this had both had happened to [00:41:40] me.
[00:41:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:41:40] Shawn Stevenson: And I was like, "Ome- where do I get omega-3s?" So of course, I bought a supplement.
[00:41:44] Dr. Taz: Right. [00:41:45]
[00:41:45] Shawn Stevenson: But this just led, each step led me to more and more, and then eventually that got expensive on my [00:41:50] college budget, so I started to just seek out those foods that had all these key nutrients that my body [00:41:55] needed to heal itself.
So, uh, just to put a bow on the story, I removed the [00:42:00] cause, which was I was made of straight garbage-
[00:42:03] Dr. Taz: Mm ...
[00:42:03] Shawn Stevenson: to be honest. Like, I ate [00:42:05] ultra-processed food or fast food almost... I mean, pretty much every [00:42:10] meal.
[00:42:10] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:42:11] Shawn Stevenson: I, I know it sounds crazy, but it's-
[00:42:12] Dr. Taz: No, not for that time. Yeah. I think we were all kind of [00:42:15] in that, you know?
[00:42:16] Shawn Stevenson: And this is every day, and I... This is the conditions I grew up in, uh, living in [00:42:20] poverty in the inner city. And so my body was just deficient in [00:42:25] everything. And so it did the best it could to get me to that point. And so once I provided [00:42:30] my body with these raw materials to actually do the processes, I got better so [00:42:35] fast.
Um, and then movement. Movement is medicine, truly. Like, your [00:42:40] body has to have a reason. The worst thing we could do is to do nothing.
[00:42:43] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:42:44] Shawn Stevenson: You know, especially this [00:42:45] is where physical therapy is at the highest levels now. It's just like as soon as we can [00:42:50] get mobile, even with an ACL tear or, you know, [00:42:55] um, uh, you know, a hip fracture, whatever the case might be, we need to start to try to get [00:43:00] load.
We need to start to try to get some movement and circulation to the area. And so [00:43:05] this doesn't mean if you break your leg to start, you know- Right ... running or whatever the case might be. Right, right. Or trying to [00:43:10] deadlift. We can have our acute thing, but as soon as we can, we need to start moving. And, [00:43:15] um, also exercise is very similar to the word [00:43:20] ex- exorcise, like to get rid of something.
And so this [00:43:25] is really arguably the primary function of exercise, [00:43:30] just from this kind of biological standpoint, is the elimination of metabolic waste.
[00:43:34] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:43:35]
[00:43:35] Shawn Stevenson: And also assimilation of nutrients. When you're actually using your muscles and your [00:43:40] cells, they're actually creating this condition to where they're absorbing more nutrition, and I came [00:43:45] across some studies on that too.
But the biggest game changer, little did I know, [00:43:50] was my sleep.
[00:43:51] Dr. Taz: Sleep?
[00:43:52] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. I was struggling.
[00:43:54] Dr. Taz: Were you not sleeping [00:43:55] prior?
[00:43:55] Shawn Stevenson: Oh, man . It was the biggest struggle for me. I mean, leading up to this [00:44:00] condition, it was sporadic and crazy. Yeah. And this is some advice I wanna give to young men- Yeah ... as well.
[00:44:04] Dr. Taz: [00:44:05] Yeah.
[00:44:06] Shawn Stevenson: You know, we now, and recently this study just came [00:44:10] out as well, looking at the relationship between sleep and sleep [00:44:15] deprivation and our telomeres.
[00:44:15] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:44:16] Shawn Stevenson: Right? And so these are kind of one of the glorified markers for our [00:44:20] lifespan. And, you know, I know the people involved in that research, uh, [00:44:25] Dr., um, Elizabeth Blackburn-
[00:44:27] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[00:44:28] Shawn Stevenson: and Elissa Epel. [00:44:30] And so the study concluded that, yeah, you can get away with it when you're [00:44:35] younger, like keeping these crazy hours, staying up late, doing all this stuff, and I've, [00:44:40] I, I did the things.
But you're bur- burning through your telomeres. You're, you're [00:44:45] sh- you're increasing the speed at which you reach the stage where you can't get away with it anymore. [00:44:50] You're just wasting this... You're burning away that wick. And so [00:44:55] what the researchers found was that conclusively sleep deprivation and a inconsistent [00:45:00] sleep schedule shortens your telomeres faster.
[00:45:02] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:45:03] Shawn Stevenson: And I was not sleeping [00:45:05] because I was in pain. The pain was waking me up at night if I even changed positions. And so that's [00:45:10] why I was trying to basically drug myself.
[00:45:11] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:45:12] Shawn Stevenson: So I'm... And that's pseudo sleep, [00:45:15] right?
[00:45:15] Dr. Taz: When you're using pain medications and those type of things.
[00:45:17] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah.
[00:45:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:45:18] Shawn Stevenson: And so it took hours [00:45:20] once I got up in the morning just to feel like I'm awake.
[00:45:22] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:45:22] Shawn Stevenson: Right? And so [00:45:25] doing these great things for myself during the day helped me to sleep better at night. And if you're not sleeping, you're not [00:45:30] healing.
[00:45:30] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:45:30] Shawn Stevenson: So once I started sleeping well, I got better so [00:45:35] fast. And it was about six weeks after that moment of declaration [00:45:40] that the pain was completely gone that I'd been in fear of for two years.
And this is not, [00:45:45] results not typical necessarily.
[00:45:46] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:45:47] Shawn Stevenson: But... And I'd lost, [00:45:50] you know, close to 20 pounds as well, which was again, not typical. I'm, I, I tend to be [00:45:55] thinner, and I had accumulated all this weight. It just kind of flew off me once I was being active again. And keep in [00:46:00] mind, I was also 22. And The, [00:46:05] the sleep changed, but also my mindset changed.
I had no idea that all these things would [00:46:10] make me feel like I need to be, be a better person, you know? Because it [00:46:15] wasn't in alignment, the way that I was living with the person that I wanted to be. [00:46:20] And so yeah, just kinda all this stuff happened at one time, [00:46:25] and I was still in fear though.
[00:46:27] Dr. Taz: Fear? Why were you still in fear?[00:46:30]
[00:46:30] Shawn Stevenson: Because that pain had been with me, haunting me for so long. Mm. So I was, like, [00:46:35] looking for it to come back.
[00:46:35] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:46:36] Shawn Stevenson: You know?
[00:46:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:46:37] Shawn Stevenson: And so it took a while to- The
[00:46:38] Dr. Taz: TSD almost.
[00:46:39] Shawn Stevenson: Yes. Yeah. [00:46:40] Exactly.
[00:46:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:46:40] Shawn Stevenson: No one's ever said it before. That's what it is. I just got the chills. That's exactly what it was like.
[00:46:43] Dr. Taz: That's what that is, yeah.[00:46:45]
[00:46:45] Shawn Stevenson: And it took a while for me to, like, let go and to just be free in my body again. [00:46:50] And people saw, and this was the thing, I was in [00:46:55] college at the time.
[00:46:55] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:46:56] Shawn Stevenson: And people saw me at my university, like walking around [00:47:00] campus, and I remember, this was crazy, my friend from high school, his [00:47:05] little sister, she went to high school with me too, but I didn't...
She was, like, in a grade lower. [00:47:10] She came up to me on campus. She was like, and she was, like, looking me up and down like, "What did you do?" And [00:47:15] I was like, "Uh, what do you mean?" And she was like, "You look so good." [00:47:20] And I was like, "I've just been doing this, this and that," whatever. She was like, "Can you help me?" [00:47:25] And I was like, "Cool," like, "For sure."
Like, "Can you, you know, just come to the gym on Saturday," da, da, da. [00:47:30] And then she said, "How much should I pay you?" And, like, time [00:47:35] froze. I was like, wait a minute.
[00:47:36] Dr. Taz: I can make some money doing this.
[00:47:37] Shawn Stevenson: People would pay me to do something I would do [00:47:40] anyways?
[00:47:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:47:41] Shawn Stevenson: So that was kind of the start, but then also one of my professors that, [00:47:45] maybe it was, like, the next week, stopped me.
He, he said, "Sean, can I see you?" And we were walking out of class. [00:47:50] He was like, you know, um, I, I thought I did something wrong. Right, right. He was like, "So what's going on with [00:47:55] you?" You know, same kind of conversation. He's like, "Well, you look so good. What did you do?" And I ... [00:48:00] He, he became my client as well. Mm. You know?
So and I went and got my certification as a personal trainer, [00:48:05] and, um, I just started to be of service, and I wanted to help all these people- Yeah ... who'd been [00:48:10] told that they can't, that it's not possible for them, because I had a firsthand [00:48:15] visceral experience of overcoming what was deemed to be impossible.
[00:48:19] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:48:19] Shawn Stevenson: You [00:48:20] know? And so, yeah. What
[00:48:20] Dr. Taz: a story. Well, you know, there's so much wrapped in [00:48:25] that story of healing and, and coming back to yourself and moving through [00:48:30] pain and moving through frustration, which some people give into, right? And that [00:48:35] becomes the story for them, right? And that then determines their outcomes as they move [00:48:40] forward.
But I keep thinking about psychology and how [00:48:45] everything shifted for you the moment you decided something wanted to change. Yes. And you [00:48:50] used a term that I, I lost about how the brain reorganizes itself.
[00:48:54] Shawn Stevenson: Instinctive [00:48:55] elaboration.
[00:48:55] Dr. Taz: There you go. Instinct- W- Can you help us with that? Because... And then you also [00:49:00] talked about the trauma, I'm calling it PTSD, of, okay, this thing is gonna come back.
So, so [00:49:05] many people live in that space.
Yeah.
Right? Either in the space that this is the [00:49:10] story and I can't move out of it, right? Or in the space of, you [00:49:15] know, fear and trauma that, oh my God, I went through something terrible. What if it happens again? That could [00:49:20] be financial insecurity. It could be physical insecurity.
It could be emotional inse- whatever, you know, [00:49:25] whatever insecurity w- you wanna label. How do we shift [00:49:30] psychology? And again, we're focusing on men, and is there a particular challenge that men have in this [00:49:35] versus women? But I would open it up generally.
[00:49:37] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah.
[00:49:37] Dr. Taz: How do you shift psychology?
[00:49:39] Shawn Stevenson: [00:49:40] Yeah. We could just stay with this one tool, with this instinctive elaboration.
There are many [00:49:45] tools. There are many paths to the goal. What we tend to do if we're seeking is we start to [00:49:50] accumulate a bunch of different ways-
[00:49:51] Dr. Taz: Right ...
[00:49:51] Shawn Stevenson: instead of really digging in and mastering one. [00:49:55] And the reason that I'm gonna double down on this one, because already this tab [00:50:00] is open, but also this has been seen for centuries, the power of questions.
[00:50:05] Ask and ye shall receive. Ask. Ask. And so- [00:50:10] What the researchers indicated, and I'm so grateful [00:50:15] for the people that are in my life and the experts that I have access to, but it just helped to affirm [00:50:20] like, oh, I did that on accident.
[00:50:21] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:50:22] Shawn Stevenson: And so what we all tend to have is something called a [00:50:25] dominant question.
A question- This
[00:50:26] Dr. Taz: dominant question.
[00:50:27] Shawn Stevenson: Okay ... a question that we're asking [00:50:30] ourselves either consciously or o- oftentimes unconsciously that's driving our lives and our [00:50:35] decisions and our perspective, right? So this could be, you know, um, [00:50:40] how can I get people to like me? Or how can I feel [00:50:45] better? Or for me, it was like, why me?
[00:50:47] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:50:48] Shawn Stevenson: Why is this happening to me? Why [00:50:50] do, why do bad things always happen, right? Why do bad things happen to good people? [00:50:55] Like, whatever that question is, think about the question you're chronically [00:51:00] asking yourself. It might be, "What's next?" But in a negative way. But it might be, "What's [00:51:05] next?" in a positive way, because it's the framing.
Even that question, why me, [00:51:10] had I had more of an empowered mindset, the person I am today, it could have been [00:51:15] because, because at the time, why me meant, why are these bad things happening to me? [00:51:20] What did I do? Now it can be, "Why me?" Because I am strong enough.
[00:51:24] Dr. Taz: [00:51:25] Mm.
[00:51:25] Shawn Stevenson: I am capable enough. I am able to overcome this [00:51:30] obstacle and, and to be able to be of service to other people who are going through something similar.
That's why [00:51:35] me, because I can.
[00:51:36] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:51:37] Shawn Stevenson: And so dialing in the dominant question, [00:51:40] and, um, I'm thinking about an experience [00:51:45] um, that my friend Jim Kwik shared with me. Do you know Jim by chance? He's a- I know the
[00:51:49] Dr. Taz: name, yeah ...
[00:51:49] Shawn Stevenson: [00:51:50] accelerated learning expert.
[00:51:51] Dr. Taz: Yeah, yeah.
[00:51:51] Shawn Stevenson: But he's worked with all of these like, you know, incredible [00:51:55] people.
Just the, you name it, he's done it. Um, but he was [00:52:00] invited to a, a film, a movie shoot, which he's done a lot. Like, he hung out with Stan Lee a [00:52:05] lot- Mm-hmm ... and was like on a private plane with all the X-Men actors. Mm-hmm. And just like, "How the hell you get there, [00:52:10] Jim?"
[00:52:10] Dr. Taz: I know, right?
[00:52:11] Shawn Stevenson: So, but he shared with me they were filming Suicide Squad-
[00:52:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm
[00:52:14] Shawn Stevenson: [00:52:15] in Canada, and Will Smith was one of the, the le- was really the, the leading [00:52:20] actor in that movie. And this is back before all the controversy. Yes. Okay? Caveat. Yes. All right?
[00:52:24] Dr. Taz: Yes, yes. [00:52:25] Still love Will. But
[00:52:25] Shawn Stevenson: he saw something very special because Will was [00:52:30] creating magic on the set. Not, he wasn't trying to. He asked Will, he had this [00:52:35] conversation about the dominant question.
And for, for, for [00:52:40] Jim, he assumed, based on his conversation with, with Will, and he asked him, "It seems like this question you're [00:52:45] asking is how can I make this moment magical?" And Will said, "No, actually, if [00:52:50] I think about what my psychology is, is I'm asking how can I make this moment more [00:52:55] magical?"
[00:52:55] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:52:56] Shawn Stevenson: I already have an underlying assumption that it's magical.
How can I [00:53:00] make this more magical? And he was seeing him, like, making hot cocoa, bringing it to the staff, and it was [00:53:05] snowing and all this stuff, and it's just like there's this beautiful vibe that was created. And so [00:53:10] we get to choose what that question is. And this instinctive elaboration [00:53:15] process, our, our, our minds, our brains are constantly [00:53:20] looking for data to affirm the question that we're asking.
Hmm. Because it's, it's the lens through which we're seeing life. [00:53:25] And so we will start to accumulate data, and this is how I landed myself at that health food store. [00:53:30] I drove past that place thousands of times, [00:53:35] and I'm not ex- literally back and forth, back and forth- Yeah ... 'cause it's right off the highway.
Yeah. I didn't know it existed.
[00:53:39] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:53:40]
[00:53:40] Shawn Stevenson: And it wasn't until I asked this question, "How can I feel better?" this thing [00:53:45] happened, then this thing happened, and then boom, I'm here, right? And so [00:53:50] choosing what you want your question to be, right? And this is gonna be [00:53:55] based on your life, your goals, but just choose and program yourself to ask this dominant [00:54:00] question.
You know, to retrain your dominant question. Take back control of that part of your mind.
[00:54:04] Dr. Taz: Hmm. [00:54:05]
[00:54:05] Shawn Stevenson: Don't just outsource it to circumstance. And so again, you could borrow it [00:54:10] from what Will said, you can borrow it from me. You know, uh, what can I do to feel better? [00:54:15] Eventually the question became, what can I do to be the healthiest person in the world, you know?
I had the audacity to ask [00:54:20] questions like that.
[00:54:20] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:21] Shawn Stevenson: And like based on my numbers, which is crazy, like again- Your numbers are
[00:54:24] Dr. Taz: [00:54:25] amazing ...
[00:54:25] Shawn Stevenson: that is bonkers. It's more than twice the level of somebody my age. And again, [00:54:30] like I've never, I'm not, I've d- never done any W- WWF stuff- Yeah, yeah ... and taking [00:54:35] stuff- Yeah
and TRT and none of that stuff. Yeah. And not to, not to negate the value of those things. Right. But [00:54:40] this is just by my lifestyle practices and I, I believe that there's so much that we can [00:54:45] do and stack conditions in those things, but because of our culture, we're looking for this quick [00:54:50] fix, and that's what we gotta move away from because there isn't a magic [00:54:55] product really.
There isn't. There's a magic process. And [00:55:00] I wanna share one more thing. Yeah. This is just a-
[00:55:01] Dr. Taz: No, I'd
[00:55:02] Shawn Stevenson: love this ... to circle back for the- Yeah ... for the young men and [00:55:05] for, for, for fellas my age and beyond as well, and how important this is. When I mentioned how valuable the [00:55:10] sleep was, so this was published in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association.
This was around [00:55:15] 2011. They did this incredible study. They took college-aged young [00:55:20] men, all right? So in their early, mid-20s, [00:55:25] and they sleep deprived them.
[00:55:27] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:55:27] Shawn Stevenson: For just one week, [00:55:30] just one week, and their testosterone levels dropped about 15%.
[00:55:34] Dr. Taz: [00:55:35] Wow.
[00:55:36] Shawn Stevenson: That's equivalent to suddenly being 10 to 15 years [00:55:40] older-
[00:55:40] Dr. Taz: Hmm
[00:55:40] Shawn Stevenson: in just one week. Now, the good news again, get back on a normal... [00:55:45] And w- it went from, um, you know, the control of being like around eight hours of sleep, I think it might have been [00:55:50] eight and a half, but they allowed them to get five hours of sleep. One week, [00:55:55] their testosterone levels plummeted. Testosterone is sleep [00:56:00] dependent.
It might be the most sleep, sleep dependent hormone that we track. [00:56:05] Fat loss is sleep dependent. Our immune system is sleep dependent. Like, there isn't a part [00:56:10] of our health that's not deeply connected to the quality of our sleep. And so again, we can get away [00:56:15] with when we're younger, whatever, but especially when you get older and you [00:56:20] don't get a good night's sleep, like, you feel like, you know, e- so- [00:56:25] what happened to me?
Yeah. Like, was I attacked in my sleep? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, it's, it's terrible. And so it's, like, [00:56:30] really stacking conditions for yourself, the earlier the better, and instilling this in our kids. [00:56:35] You know, again, even with my son who got up and was reading with me, he really prioritizes his sleep. [00:56:40] I know he's gonna go out, he's gonna have fun, he's gonna do this stuff- Right, right
and the college things and this and that.
[00:56:43] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:56:44] Shawn Stevenson: But having that [00:56:45] foundation and knowing the science, but most importantly, seeing the [00:56:50] results in your life.
[00:56:50] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:56:51] Shawn Stevenson: I've simply... I, I don't demand as far as, like, [00:56:55] telling what to do. I instruct, I coach, [00:57:00] and I point out when you do the opposite thing. Like, okay, you know, like he, he might've [00:57:05] went to a, a birthday party a couple years ago, right?
And he ate a bunch of whatever, [00:57:10] you know, some, I don't know what kids are eating, jelly beans and- Yeah ... uh, gumdrops and- All the [00:57:15] junk. All the junk. Yeah ... you know, pizza, whatever.
[00:57:17] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:57:17] Shawn Stevenson: And, and he doesn't feel good [00:57:20] afterwards, and I'm just like, you know, just like, "Really focus on eating some good stuff and, [00:57:25] you know, you're gonna feel better."
[00:57:25] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:57:26] Shawn Stevenson: And just being able to just pay attention, like, "Oh, when I do all that stuff, I don't feel the best."
[00:57:29] Dr. Taz: [00:57:30] They're
[00:57:30] Shawn Stevenson: not me. Yeah. But it's okay. That's another thing. [00:57:35] Especially in this domain. I, [00:57:40] I have friends and colleagues who are very militant, and I, I think it's a [00:57:45] phase And you're gonna reach some people like that.
It's gonna impact them. But [00:57:50] for most people, that's not gonna work. It's not sustainable.
[00:57:53] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:57:54] Shawn Stevenson: It's really [00:57:55] about having a revelation within themselves, and that's often through creating conditions of love and [00:58:00] understanding, you know? And so modeling the behavior, [00:58:05] um, understanding that people make choices and, and, and mistakes and [00:58:10] things that you might not ne- necessarily agree with, and that's okay.
[00:58:15] So not making anything... Not anything, but when it comes to this health [00:58:20] conversation, not making anything-
[00:58:22] Dr. Taz: Good or bad ...
[00:58:22] Shawn Stevenson: good or bad.
[00:58:23] Dr. Taz: Yeah, the extremes. Yeah.
[00:58:24] Shawn Stevenson: Taking the [00:58:25] morality out of- Yeah, yeah ... especially food.
[00:58:26] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:58:27] Shawn Stevenson: Like, it's- Yeah ... super dangerous.
[00:58:28] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:58:29] Shawn Stevenson: And also, [00:58:30] there's no one-size-fits-all diet. I've done all of, all the [00:58:35] diets.
I've done all of the... Even, like, super ethnic, [00:58:40] like, you know, my, my wife's from Kenya.
[00:58:41] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:58:42] Shawn Stevenson: You know? Yeah. Like, I've done the [00:58:45] paleo, the raw vegan, the-
[00:58:46] Dr. Taz: The
[00:58:47] Shawn Stevenson: keto ... all of it.
[00:58:48] Dr. Taz: All
[00:58:48] Shawn Stevenson: of it, yeah. Okay. I've done it to [00:58:50] a level you have no... I've fasted for 21 days. Oh
[00:58:52] Dr. Taz: my God.
[00:58:53] Shawn Stevenson: I've done all the things. [00:58:55] Everything is a tool.
[00:58:57] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:58:58] Shawn Stevenson: The greatest thing that we can [00:59:00] rely on for longevity, for health, for [00:59:05] sustainability with this, is just eating real food.
[00:59:08] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:59:09] Shawn Stevenson: Just eat [00:59:10] real food Don't imprison yourself with a diet [00:59:15] framework if it's h- especially if it's hurting you. What tends to happen is we do a diet and it [00:59:20] s- does s- we get some results from it, but then when the results stop or maybe we stop and [00:59:25] we do the thing again and we're just like, "I just didn't do it right"-
[00:59:28] Dr. Taz: It didn't work
[00:59:28] Shawn Stevenson: "I need to do it harder."
[00:59:29] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [00:59:30]
[00:59:30] Shawn Stevenson: And, you know, you start, again, creating this, um, learned helplessness. [00:59:35] And so utilizing diet frameworks and understanding [00:59:40] it's just a framework. It doesn't have to be religiosity.
[00:59:43] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:59:44] Shawn Stevenson: You know? Um, [00:59:45] and I know, again, all... I know the top raw vegan diet- Yeah ... [00:59:50] um, physician, you know, pioneering that message and then the [00:59:55] carnivore.
Yeah. You know? Like, I know... And everybody means well.
[00:59:57] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:59:57] Shawn Stevenson: They all mean well, and they've all helped [01:00:00] people.
[01:00:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:00:01] Shawn Stevenson: But they don't talk about how many people weren't helped.
[01:00:03] Dr. Taz: Right.
[01:00:04] Shawn Stevenson: You know? And [01:00:05] it's okay. It's okay. So having all these tools is super valuable. [01:00:10] Keto, paleo, um, you know, raw food even, you know?
Like, [01:00:15] there's all these great- The
[01:00:15] Dr. Taz: raw food movement, yeah. Yeah.
[01:00:16] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah. And I did it in Mis- I, I'm from Missouri. [01:00:20] I did three years. Raw? Raw, raw vegan. Three years.
[01:00:24] Dr. Taz: What? [01:00:25]
[01:00:25] Shawn Stevenson: There's no r- I'm in LA now. I could live like a king here- Yeah ... with raw food.
[01:00:28] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:00:29] Shawn Stevenson: But [01:00:30] it was just a lot of... And you dehydrate.
[01:00:32] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:00:32] Shawn Stevenson: You know? If you want s- so basically, if you want [01:00:35] something, if you want something, you gotta start it today- Yeah
if you wanna have it in two days, basically. You know, put in [01:00:40] the dehydrator or whatever.
[01:00:40] Dr. Taz: But the rules, like, the basic tenets are the basic tenets, [01:00:45] right? Like, move your body.
[01:00:46] Shawn Stevenson: Yes.
[01:00:47] Dr. Taz: Sleep.
[01:00:47] Shawn Stevenson: Yes.
[01:00:48] Dr. Taz: Protect your morning. [01:00:50] We probably should add that. Right, yeah. You know. Um, eat real food.
[01:00:53] Shawn Stevenson: Eat real food.
[01:00:54] Dr. Taz: [01:00:55] Fake meats, fake this, fake that, it's not gonna work out, you know.
[01:00:59] Shawn Stevenson: Come [01:01:00] on.
[01:01:01] Dr. Taz: There's, going back to psychology, there's a [01:01:05] psychology that draws you to these, like, stringent diets, right? [01:01:10] Mm-hmm. It, it's wound up in the belief that we can biohack or grind our way to [01:01:15] the outcome. Yeah. Right?
Yeah.
So I keep coming back to, I think, the most powerful thing [01:01:20] you've said, you know, and hopefully men are listening and, you know, I have a 17-year-old son, so I [01:01:25] wish he was listening right now and paying attention to some of this.
But the most powerful thing you've [01:01:30] said, I think, is the, the mindset, like the questions that you [01:01:35] ask yourself- Yeah ... the stories that you believe, because I think men in particular [01:01:40] write a story handed down generationally or through culture and through community that [01:01:45] this is how it's supposed to be, and if they're not able to do X, Y, or Z, [01:01:50] they carry shame and failure, which then becomes their dominant [01:01:55] question- Yes
which then leads down the wrong road, right? And that road looks different for everybody. [01:02:00] So I think, you know, I hope that men are listening and first [01:02:05] experiencing a mindset shift-
Yes ...
if anything else, you know? [01:02:10] But then they're able to naturally start getting the [01:02:15] tools at their toolbox that they need to move forward, whatever those tools might be, you know?
[01:02:20] What would you tell young men and men of all ages who are listening to us today [01:02:25] when they're hearing the words longevity or biohacking or [01:02:30] optimization or performance or peptides or cold plunging and [01:02:35] cryo and sauna and, like, you know, all the things [01:02:40] that you're hearing right now, and they're in a grind mentality- Hmm
because that's how they've been [01:02:45] raised- Yeah ... and that's what they believe. That's how they, you know, rose in a career, and that's how they built their family, and [01:02:50] that's why their kids got into the best schools and, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. How do we [01:02:55] help men with all the noise? [01:03:00]
[01:03:00] Shawn Stevenson: You ask, this is like you asked me the meaning of life.
Yeah. That is such
[01:03:03] Dr. Taz: a- Well, that's why I brought you here. [01:03:05]
[01:03:06] Shawn Stevenson: That's such a- Come on, wizard. Alakazam.
[01:03:09] Dr. Taz: I
know.
[01:03:09] Shawn Stevenson: [01:03:10] Um, you know, um, I, I think, first of all, I wanna [01:03:15] say that, um, there are seasons for everything, [01:03:20] and I would direct [01:03:25] people to know, and I know this for certain because I've experienced it and I've seen it with e- everybody, [01:03:30] is that give yourself permission to change.
Give yourself permission [01:03:35] to... You know, the thing that is working for you right now, at some point it's not gonna [01:03:40] work, you know? And then let me be clear, this is not for everything, by the way. Right. Like-
[01:03:44] Dr. Taz: [01:03:45] Right, right ...
[01:03:45] Shawn Stevenson: walking is still probably gonna work, you know? But I mean, just like, you know, there's a certain diet or [01:03:50] certain foods, like you might develop an intolerance or, you know, um, a certain [01:03:55] diet might work, work really well for you.
Like a friend of mine, Mark Bell, a former [01:04:00] literally world record holding powerlifter, he squatted I think 1,000 pounds, some, [01:04:05] some stupid amount. But b- to do that he had to be really big.
[01:04:08] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[01:04:08] Shawn Stevenson: Really massive. [01:04:10] Mm-hmm. Like carry a lot of weight, and, um, he was obese. And now he's just, like, he [01:04:15] just ran the, I think he did the Boston Marathon or something like, but he's like just kinda jacked.
He [01:04:20] slimmed down. He lost like 100 pounds, and he's done all the different diets. He did the carnivore thing. [01:04:25] Now he's doing the sugar diet. Now, when I say sugar diet, I mean- I
[01:04:29] Dr. Taz: want that [01:04:30] diet.
[01:04:30] Shawn Stevenson: He's... I'm just kidding. So with his training, he might have some kinda like dense source [01:04:35] of, of sugar, but just basically for him it was just allowing himself to have [01:04:40] carbohydrates again.
[01:04:40] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Okay.
[01:04:41] Shawn Stevenson: Right? So whether this is sweet potatoes or rice or fruit, whatever the case might [01:04:45] be, where he had went so hard in the other direction, he found that, oh, when I do this thing, I got [01:04:50] this result. Like, but when he did the other thing, he got the result as well. Yeah. But it just kinda started to...
[01:04:55] Maybe it was just stale for him. Maybe it was his life conditions changed. Maybe he, you know, [01:05:00] the w- results weren't working and he just tried something different. When I said this earlier, there are many [01:05:05] paths to the goal.
[01:05:05] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[01:05:06] Shawn Stevenson: Humans have tried to eat everything, you know? And our ancestors did figure out a [01:05:10] lot about stuff that we can, that are sustainable for us.
And so give [01:05:15] yourself permission to change. And [01:05:20] I think the most important thing is, and this is, this goes against my [01:05:25] temperament Which is so foolish, is [01:05:30] to really... Ah, I'm sorry. Um, [01:05:35] to really lean into your relationships, you know, really [01:05:40] invest in your relationships. I'm definitely a recovering lone wolf.
[01:05:44] Dr. Taz: [01:05:45] Yeah.
[01:05:45] Shawn Stevenson: You know? And I still, I like to be in my, in my cave, in my wolf's den by [01:05:50] myself.
[01:05:50] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[01:05:51] Shawn Stevenson: Definitely, but my greatest gift, and I had no [01:05:55] idea, and even doing my show, I was not looking to have relationships- Right ... with people [01:06:00] per se.
[01:06:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:06:00] Shawn Stevenson: But that's been the greatest blessing-
[01:06:01] Dr. Taz: Mm ...
[01:06:02] Shawn Stevenson: by far. You know, the people that are in my life, [01:06:05] the access, the resources, the insights.
It's still very [01:06:10] difficult, doesn't come second nature for me to share if there's something that I'm struggling with or need help with, [01:06:15] but I'm learning to. And it's just so funny how a problem gets solved- Wow ... when you share. [01:06:20] And it's, for a lot of men, we, we're not very good at that. Mm. And [01:06:25] we were never designed to do stuff by ourselves, like we have, we [01:06:30] evolved in tribes.
Now of course there's different positions, there's different people doing different things, but [01:06:35] we have to communicate, we have to connect. And funny enough, one of [01:06:40] the longest running longitudinal studies on human longevity, and I know the director of the [01:06:45] study at Harvard, Dr. Robert Waldinger, he shared with me, he's the fourth director, it's over 80 years this study's been [01:06:50] going on.
The number one determinant on how long you're going to live and live healthfully [01:06:55] is the quality of your relationships. Yeah. What he called strong social bonds.
[01:06:59] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[01:06:59] Shawn Stevenson: [01:07:00] And I asked him Why? Like, what, what is it [01:07:05] about? He said, "The research is pointing to stress." Having [01:07:10] healthy relationships is one of the most powerful means of metabolizing stress.
[01:07:14] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[01:07:14] Shawn Stevenson: Because [01:07:15] so often you're just in your own head and just in this tornado, in this blender trying to figure [01:07:20] stuff out.
[01:07:20] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:07:21] Shawn Stevenson: And it's not necessarily like venting, which might be a part, but just knowing [01:07:25] that somebody's there for you at the end of the day- Yeah ... that has your back and you can share with, or just to be [01:07:30] there for you.
We need that. We need each other. And also, I [01:07:35] asked him, "So does this mean, like, like your, you know, your intimate relationship, your loving [01:07:40] relationship, does this mean, like, you guys don't fight a lot? Like, what is a healthy relationship?" He was like, [01:07:45] "No. Actually, some of the healthiest relationships that they've studied over [01:07:50] decades," he...
And this was his words, he said, "They fought like cats and dogs." But [01:07:55] in... He said, "But they had a bedrock of affection."
[01:07:58] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:07:58] Shawn Stevenson: Even when they were getting on each [01:08:00] other's nerves- Yeah ... they still touched each other.
[01:08:01] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:08:02] Shawn Stevenson: They still looked into, to each other's eyes. They still saw each other.
[01:08:04] Dr. Taz: [01:08:05] Yeah.
[01:08:05] Shawn Stevenson: They didn't agree on a lot of things, and they would bicker or whatever the case might be, [01:08:10] but, you know, there isn't this cookie cutter relationship on how stuff is supposed to be.[01:08:15]
But this is something where, unfortunately, our society today, we've been [01:08:20] so fractured.
[01:08:20] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:08:22] Shawn Stevenson: We oftentimes don't even have our, [01:08:25] um, extended family near us, you know? Like, we [01:08:30] just literally go on a different place on the map, and that's great. That's great we have the ability to do that, [01:08:35] but just thinking about You know, a child leaving and just like they're thrown into [01:08:40] this environment alone, like it's 300 or something, you know?
And just like you gotta come back with the [01:08:45] beast on your shoulder. It's a very difficult circumstance to be in. [01:08:50] Not to say that that's wrong, but to have a community built around [01:08:55] ourselves, our families, and studying it. I come from a [01:09:00] very dysfunct- every, I mean, it's pretty much who doesn't? But I grew [01:09:05] up in an environment with a lot of violence, drug abuse.
You know, my, my [01:09:10] father, when I said he passed away, he spent almost 15 years in [01:09:15] assisted living.
[01:09:15] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[01:09:15] Shawn Stevenson: And still w- was a relatively young man. He's only 19 years older than [01:09:20] me, and it was due to drugs and alcohol. Yeah. He ended up having [01:09:25] epilepsy. It w- you know, I came up during the crack epidemic, and I've lost [01:09:30] many family members.
And so I grew up in that [01:09:35] environment, and so I didn't really see what a healthy relationship looks like except with my grandparents, [01:09:40] my grandmother and my grandfather. It's so valuable to have that imprint.
[01:09:44] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:09:44] Shawn Stevenson: [01:09:45] Right? Just that example that ... And they were an entity. I've n- I never saw them [01:09:50] fight or argue, which I'm not saying they didn't.
They probably did, especially dealing with my mother. [01:09:55] Um, but they were s- they loved each other so much. I saw them close [01:10:00] and him putting his arm around her, and them loving me. [01:10:05] Even though it was for a short amount of time, it stayed with me.
[01:10:07] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[01:10:08] Shawn Stevenson: And so be that [01:10:10] model for other people. Yes, make it a study, especially if you're [01:10:15] deficient.
How my wife and I have made it, because there was ... We had all the lovey-dovey stuff for sure. [01:10:20] Lovey-dovey. But at a point, if you don't know how to do this stuff, [01:10:25] we ... There's this point where it's just like, "You just get on my fucking nerves." You know what I mean?
[01:10:29] Dr. Taz: [01:10:30] Oh,
[01:10:30] Shawn Stevenson: yeah. Like, I'm trying to do this thing.
[01:10:31] Dr. Taz: Oh, yeah.
[01:10:32] Shawn Stevenson: Why are you here? You know? [01:10:35] And what we did was we We took a [01:10:40] course together.
[01:10:40] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:10:42] Shawn Stevenson: Um, it was called, and I believe the name was [01:10:45] Lovers For Life. It was like a Tony Robbins course. And it was like this is when they send you CDs in the mail.
[01:10:49] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:10:49] Shawn Stevenson: [01:10:50] Right?
[01:10:50] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:10:50] Shawn Stevenson: And we went through it. It was videos and stuff, and we went through it together, and little workbooks.[01:10:55]
And I learned she doesn't see stuff the way I do. [01:11:00]
[01:11:00] Dr. Taz: Shocking.
[01:11:01] Shawn Stevenson: That's... I know.
[01:11:02] Dr. Taz: Yes.
[01:11:02] Shawn Stevenson: That's 'cause, you know, you don't think [01:11:05] about that- Right ... until you think about it.
[01:11:06] Dr. Taz: Right.
[01:11:07] Shawn Stevenson: It's o- it's more so, especially for guys, just like, "Oh, you [01:11:10] just don't get it."
[01:11:10] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:11:11] Shawn Stevenson: I know, I know you obviously think like I do, you just didn't get it.
[01:11:14] Dr. Taz: Yeah. [01:11:15]
[01:11:15] Shawn Stevenson: Right? But he talked about these six human needs, right? Um, a need [01:11:20] for certainty, uncertainty, love, [01:11:25] significance, and then more evolved needs of contribution and growth.
[01:11:29] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [01:11:30] Mm-hmm.
[01:11:30] Shawn Stevenson: I was really driven by growth-
[01:11:32] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm ...
[01:11:33] Shawn Stevenson: and love. [01:11:35] That's where we connected, on the love piece, but she was really driven by certainty.
[01:11:39] Dr. Taz: Mm. [01:11:40]
[01:11:40] Shawn Stevenson: Can you see how growth-
[01:11:41] Dr. Taz: Oh, totally ...
[01:11:42] Shawn Stevenson: and certainty are gonna conflict?
[01:11:43] Dr. Taz: Oh,
[01:11:44] Shawn Stevenson: 100%. When I'm like, "Baby, [01:11:45] we need to do this nutrition..." Like, "I wanna teach a class-" Yeah ... and like whatever. I think we have this conversation. Yeah. And then she, in her head, [01:11:50] she's like, "We lost, like, $500 last time on [01:11:55] that seven-course meal you created for everybody."
Yeah. "It was a great time, but we lost money doing it."
[01:11:59] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:11:59] Shawn Stevenson: [01:12:00] And so, you know, once I understood that and I addressed her certainty needs, she became [01:12:05] the one pushing me- Mm-hmm ... and the growth-oriented person, right? And so, and, [01:12:10] and the things that you surround yourself with will show up in your life again, and again, and again.
I just [01:12:15] shared before this show this connection with Tony Robbins. Yeah. And the first time that we [01:12:20] talked, he, he said to me, he thanked me. And I'm like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait." [01:12:25] There was a study that he put into, uh, his most recent book that [01:12:30] he found out from me. It was something that I shared.
[01:12:32] Dr. Taz: Ah.
[01:12:33] Shawn Stevenson: And it's just like, [01:12:35] I mean, I, I can't...
It's unbelievable.
[01:12:36] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:12:37] Shawn Stevenson: It's unbelievable. So surround yourself, immerse yourself in those [01:12:40] things that you want to become your life, to become a reflection of, [01:12:45] and make it a study. You know, especially in the context of relationships. [01:12:50] If you don't know how to do this, it is so important. It's the number one determiner of how long you're gonna live.
Your [01:12:55] success, happiness, it's gonna be with and through other people.
[01:12:58] Dr. Taz: I think so many [01:13:00] men in particular don't realize that, that the lone wolf, [01:13:05] beast on the back, I got this, is ... It really doesn't work for [01:13:10] their health. And you've been able to draw it all the way back down to testosterone [01:13:15] levels. You got it that granular, so that's awesome.
Well, [01:13:20] this has been so enlightening. I knew, I knew you had done a lot, but I didn't really know the [01:13:25] details of your story, so thank you for sharing all that today, and I hope it resonates with men of all ages. With [01:13:30] our young boys that are headed out into the world, and to men, you know, who might [01:13:35] really just not know what their next step might be.
Now, one of the [01:13:40] things I do on this show that I would love... I think you've sort of answered it, but I'm still gonna ask the question anyways. [01:13:45] Uh, w- h- what and how, or what makes you whole? [01:13:50]
[01:13:52] Shawn Stevenson: My family
[01:13:52] Dr. Taz: Family
[01:13:53] Shawn Stevenson: Yeah, for sure Yeah, yeah My, [01:13:55] my, my wife, my best friend, um, my kids, my [01:14:00] mom-in-law. Yeah, it's my, it's my family.
[01:14:03] Dr. Taz: Amazing. And [01:14:05] for everyone out there listening, please share this episode with the men that you love. I think it's really [01:14:10] important that we spread this word and we really get this message out there, because from [01:14:15] a diagnostic standpoint as a physician, I definitely see the numbers declining. I [01:14:20] see high cortisol, I see low testosterone, 20-year-olds.
We're not even talking about middle age. [01:14:25] And those guys then have a whole life ahead of them of all the things that they're [01:14:30] supposed to do. So we really wanna change that story for them. So thank you so much for [01:14:35] taking time out today to join me. What is the best way for people to connect with you?
[01:14:39] Shawn Stevenson: [01:14:40] Where they're listening, watching this show, you can find my show as well.
It's called The Model Health Show. [01:14:45]
[01:14:45] Dr. Taz: Amazing
[01:14:45] Shawn Stevenson: show. And, um, yeah, we do masterclasses on every subject matter you [01:14:50] can imagine, and we have on the ver- the, the leading experts in their, in their [01:14:55] respective fields, the best of the best. You're one of them.
[01:14:56] Dr. Taz: Oh, thank you.
[01:14:57] Shawn Stevenson: And, um, I think that people would absolutely [01:15:00] just fall in love.
What tends to happen... This happens every day, we get these messages. People [01:15:05] go back and listen from episode one.
[01:15:06] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[01:15:07] Shawn Stevenson: And I just... We just released episode 1,000- 1,000 ... which is [01:15:10] crazy. And so, you know, just being on... And, like, we can see the download numbers too. Yeah Like, people are going from number [01:15:15] one all the way up, and that's an incredible resource.
It's free. [01:15:20] All you have to do is push play. Right. And it's such a blessing because we didn't have access to this-
[01:15:24] Dr. Taz: [01:15:25] No ...
[01:15:25] Shawn Stevenson: kind of information. No, I
[01:15:25] Dr. Taz: wish we did.
[01:15:26] Shawn Stevenson: I was literally using the Dewey Decimal System.
[01:15:29] Dr. Taz: Oh, I was there with [01:15:30] you. Okay? So I was there
[01:15:31] Shawn Stevenson: with you. And so, you know, just take advantage of that, themodelhealthshow.com.
[01:15:35] You can get all the resources there as well. My social media's there. Uh, my books are there. I have [01:15:40] multiple national bestsellers. I'm very grateful to, to say that. Just great resources. Uh, my most recent is the [01:15:45] Eat Smarter Family Cookbook.
[01:15:46] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[01:15:46] Shawn Stevenson: Number one cookbook release in the US when it came out. Woo-hoo.
And I'm a [01:15:50] big foodie. Yeah. But there's also over 200, um, peer-reviewed studies that are embedded into the [01:15:55] content of the book, and so it's a incredible education piece. Fun. Yeah. I had a [01:16:00] lot of fun writing it. Yeah. There's a lot of superhero references in there-
[01:16:02] Dr. Taz: Yeah ...
[01:16:03] Shawn Stevenson: um, just to make it [01:16:05] very c- consumable and, and fun, and fun for the whole family.
Right. It's called the Eat Smarter [01:16:10] Family Cookbook-
[01:16:10] Dr. Taz: Mm ...
[01:16:11] Shawn Stevenson: for a reason,
[01:16:12] Dr. Taz: so. I love it. Yeah. Well, thanks again for being here. Of course. For everybody else, [01:16:15] thank you for watching or listening to the WHOLE+ Show. Remember to share and [01:16:20] subscribe, and we will see you guys next [01:16:25] [01:16:30] [01:16:35] [01:16:40] time.