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Interviews with amazing people making things happen across the world of digital media.
New episodes every Thursday.
Mike Stricoff (00:01.859)
What a special guest we have today. He comes to us today with decades of leadership across a world of fascinating areas. And I could probably spend a whole podcast on each of the guests, various sectors of the world that he had spent time working in. but I think he, he sketched it out to me as he went from the music industry to film to television to hospitality and now the indie world. so
Ben Liebmann (00:01.887)
What a special guest we have today. He comes to us today with decades of leadership across a world of fascinating areas. And I could probably spend a whole podcast on each of the guests, various sectors of the world that he had spent time working in. But I think he, he sketched it out to me as he went from the music industry to film to television to hospitality and now the indie world.
So that's a lot to do, but we'll actually get into that a little bit later. But his experience in hospitality collides with his film and entertainment background. And that's where we'll spend the bulk of today's episode. He linked up with superstar chef, Rene Rizzeppi and was the COO of Noma. Noma, if you've never heard of it, is a restaurant that was literally declared the best restaurant in the world many times and by several different
Mike Stricoff (00:30.853)
That's a lot to do, but we'll actually get into that a little bit later. But his experience in hospitality collides with his film and entertainment background. And that's where we'll spend the bulk of today's episode. He linked up with superstar chef, Rene Rizzeppi and was the COO of Noma. Noma, if you've never heard of it, is a restaurant that was literally declared the best restaurant in the world many times and by several different...
people that sort of like decide that sort of thing. This isn't like world's best cup of coffee written outside the restaurant. Like this is literally one of the best restaurants on the planet. And he and Renee then created and launched the brand new show on Apple TV plus called Omnivore. So ladies and gentlemen, Ben Liebman, Ben, welcome to the show.
Ben Liebmann (00:59.918)
people that sort of like decide that sort of thing. This isn't like world's best cup of coffee written outside the restaurant. Like this is literally one of the best restaurants on the planet. And he and Rene then created and launched the brand new show on Apple TV plus called Omnivore. So ladies and gentlemen, Ben Liebman. Ben, welcome to the show. Thank you, mate. Appreciate you having me. I'm not sure I've got anything more I can say after that introduction.
Mike Stricoff (01:26.586)
Yeah.
Mike Stricoff (01:30.257)
That was, I mean, that really was like the highest possible level. Like your experience across all these different sectors that I sort of like sketched out there is so interesting and there's so much to deal with. we can, like, we'll talk a little bit later about sort of your journey through it all. But just to start, like, you know, you were an executive producer of Omnivore.
Ben Liebmann (01:30.274)
Well, that's not true. I'm sure I've got plenty to say. That was, I mean, that really was like the highest possible level. Like your experience across all these different sectors that I sort of like sketched out there is so interesting and there's so much to deal with. we can, we'll talk a little bit later about sort of your journey through it all. But just to start, like, you know, you were an executive producer of Omnivore.
Mike Stricoff (01:57.361)
If you haven't seen it, Omnivore is on Apple TV Plus. It debuted at the time of this taping about a month ago or so. It is a fantastic, you know, amazingly shot and beautiful production of the world of food and the global sort of like commoditization of food. It's a fascinating show. I highly recommend everybody checks it out. But Ben, beyond that,
Ben Liebmann (01:57.486)
If you haven't seen it, Omnivore is on Apple TV+. It debuted at the time of this taping about a month ago or so. It is a fantastic, amazingly shot and beautiful production of the world of food and the global sort of commoditization of food. It's a fascinating show. I highly recommend everybody checks it out. But Ben, beyond that,
Mike Stricoff (02:26.651)
So tell us about Omnivore, how are you involved in it? Obviously you're an executive producer and you've been working with Renee for a long time, but just tell us about the show, how it all came together, what kind of makes it special, and then we'll go from there.
Ben Liebmann (02:26.744)
So tell us about Omnivore. How are you involved in it? Obviously, you're an executive producer and you've been working with René for a long time. But just tell us about the show, how it all came together, what kind of makes it special, and then we'll go from there. I mean, it's an idea that René had been sitting with for over a decade. In actual fact, the very first time I met him, which was...
2013, think. Could have even been 2012, but let's call it 2013. I was living in London. He was based in Copenhagen obviously with a restaurant.
Our world had intertwined through that something we're going to talk about I think you know that increasing connection between media and food or the worlds of media and the world of worlds of food and my family we were going over to Copenhagen for a weekend and I texted him and said look I'm coming to town would love to come and introduce myself in person we we'd exchanged emails but at this point and we stood at the old test kitchen or the test kitchen at the
old Noma for about 20 minutes and again talked about our respective worlds and how they were increasingly coming together. And in that first conversation he said, you know, I've got an idea for a show. Now at the time I'm working for the Shine Group, which was Elizabeth Murdoch's production company. But making docs, making television was really not my part of the business. I was running the
commercial rights arm of the business, kind of brands and businesses off the back of television series. That was where my focus was and I kind of said that to him but I said look, love to hear the idea. And the idea was to look at the world through the lens of food with the same care, thoughtfulness, kind of passion.
Ben Liebmann (04:35.757)
curiosity the David Attenborough would look at it through the animal kingdom and I I mean I remember I remember that conversation not just because of that idea but because that was that first time that we'd ever met and I remember just saying it's a brilliant idea I wish you nothing but the best and then in you know kind of a series of sliding door moments I joined Noma in 2015
Mike Stricoff (04:55.706)
Hahaha
Ben Liebmann (05:04.3)
as the COO. and life gets ahead of us. We do a pop up in Australia. We, we as the business team, we do a pop up in Mexico. close the original Noma open what became known as Noma 2 .0.
explored a whole range of partnerships. So as I say, life gets ahead of us. And then in 2019, he said, do you remember that idea? And I said, of course I do. And he said, then let's try and make this happen. And that's when it kind of officially kicked off. We spent six to nine months setting it up the way that we wanted to set it up.
which meant in effect establishing a media company within Noma. Doing that to not only give him as the kind of creator of the idea the protections that he needed to realize it the way that he wanted to realize it to participate in it financially, ownership wise in ways beyond just being inverted commas the talent.
and finding a partner that we could then...
co -produce it with, that shared the vision and had the ability to realize it both on screen and in terms of selling it or finding a home for it. and that home was, or that, that partner was Endeavor Content, which has now become fifth season. And a gentleman by the name of Chris Rice, who was one of the co -CEOs of the company, he just got it from the very beginning. Chris had been part of setting up the original chef's table,
Ben Liebmann (06:53.543)
Food was, you know, a passion of his, but he saw what we saw, which was beyond this kind of initial idea. We also saw the evolution of food programming or food as entertainment and that we'd seen everything from Parts Unknown with Tony, Chef's Table, Somebody Feed Phil, these amazing shows in their respective areas. You know, we've said,
Mike Stricoff (07:03.386)
you
Ben Liebmann (07:23.049)
many occasions we stand on the shoulders of all of them but we all saw this opportunity to take food into a different direction somewhere that was perhaps you know away from the kitchen away from the restaurants less about consumption certainly nothing to do with the kind of competition shows and the reality shows that have also been very successful within the space but to create something that was
a little bit more thoughtful, a little bit more considered and really looked at the people and the system that sits behind what we eat every day. And that partnership was signed at the end of 19 and then a global pandemic kicks off. Now the privileged silver lining in that for us was it afforded us an opportunity to spend the time to really develop the idea.
I think if it hadn't, we would have probably accelerated in a way to kind of get it down on paper and get it out to the market without necessarily all the detail that that period of time afforded us. And we brought some extraordinary people in. Matt Goulding, who had worked with Tony for many years, came on board as a co -creator with Renee and the lead writer of the series, Kerry Fukunaga.
who was coming off the back of having just filmed what was then the latest Bond film came on board to really help us set a visual style and a narrative style that was something different and unique. Because I think what we wanted was at the end of this, we wanted people to look at it and think, this was not a food show. This was food meets natural history.
you know, this is something with purpose, it's something with impact. It of course never loses sight of the deliciousness of food and the wonder that that gives us. But we wanted, as I said, we wanted to look at food as art, as culture, as history, as commerce, as religion, and do it in a way that had purpose, had impact. And then we took it out in October and we found a home with Apple.
Ben Liebmann (09:48.06)
Now I can, I can pause there or we could kind of then talk about that. What then became three and a half years of actually making it. cause that's a journey in itself. Yeah, let's pause there because you mentioned a couple of times as you're describing sort of like, the idea of what you were trying to do, the word thoughtful comes across, right? And I certainly got that when I was watching, right? Thoughtful is probably like the number one.
Mike Stricoff (10:00.741)
Yeah, let's pause there because you mentioned a couple of times as you're describing sort of like the idea of what you were trying to do, the word thoughtful comes across, right? And I certainly got that when I was watching it, right? Thoughtful is probably like the number one adjective that I would use to describe like the story and also like the way that it is shot, right? It's sort of like permeates the screen when you're watching it. like, this is like,
Ben Liebmann (10:17.99)
adjective that I would use to describe the story and also the way that it is shot, right? It sort of permeates the screen when you're watching it. like, encouraging us all to sort of take a second and think, right? When Renee and at the end of the coffee episode, they're sitting there smelling the coffee before they take a sip of it and stuff. It's like, yeah, this idea of slowing down in our culture.
Mike Stricoff (10:30.459)
sort of encouraging us all to sort of like take a second and think, right? Like when Renee and at the end of the coffee episode, they're sitting there like smelling the coffee before they like take a sip of it and stuff. It's like, yeah, like this idea of like slowing down in our culture, right? It's sort of like not the first thing that we often go to in our culture today. So as you guys were making this and you know, like that pace, that like thoughtful and like slower pace, you know,
Ben Liebmann (10:44.808)
Right? It's sort of like not the first thing that we often go to in our culture today. So as you guys were making this and, you know, like that pace, that like thoughtful and like slower pace, you know, on this show, we talk a lot about, you know, the cap platforms, which we're calling them here, the content algorithm platforms, trying to make fetch happen still. I don't know if I will. And it's, you know, that's, it's all
Mike Stricoff (10:59.289)
On this show, we talk a lot about the cap platforms, which we're calling them here, the content algorithm platforms, trying to make fetch happen still. I don't know if I will. it's all no attention span types of content, just like rapid fire paces extraordinarily high. If you're making content on TikTok, you might lose someone in the first three seconds of
Ben Liebmann (11:13.917)
you know, no attention span types of content, just like rapid fire pieces, extraordinarily high. You know, if you're making content on TikTok, you have to, you might lose someone in the first three seconds of the thing you're making. So how do you guys then take this like different approach? It's like slower, slower in a good way, thoughtful. And, know, sort of like, why do you think that still plays today in today's like hyper attention? Like,
Mike Stricoff (11:27.546)
thing you're making. So how do you guys then take this like different approach? This like slower, slower in a good way, thoughtful, and you know, sort of like, why do you think that still plays today in today's like hyper attention, like, you know, no attention span landscape?
Ben Liebmann (11:43.603)
you know, no attention span landscape. hope it plays. I hope there's still a place for, for, for programming like this, both of the subject matter, but a production style, because you're right. Everything, everything else in terms of the media that we consume today is increasingly being rewritten to suit the algorithm. you said, everything from the videos we watch on social media,
The reveal being brought at the front instead of at the end. My daughter is a budding singer -songwriter and we're constantly looking at how the algorithm and the creative community trying to play within that system has shaped creativity within music. Shorter songs, the chorus being played, I mean the entire idea of a song structure.
is being changed to suit the algorithm and technology. Now I'll pause for a second cause I am always mindful when I raise this that I do sound a little bit, you know, old man shaking fist at the clouds and that could happen a lot on this call Mike or in this chat. Okay. All perspectives are totally well. Because we've seen technology shape creativity for millennia. you know,
Mike Stricoff (12:55.217)
Yeah.
Mike Stricoff (13:00.187)
That's okay. All perspectives are totally welcome.
Ben Liebmann (13:11.219)
printing press shaped our ability to communicate the written word. Moving from the EP to the LP allowed for longer songs and more songs. Now some would say that eventually became the downfall of the original recorded music industry because they were focusing more on the product rather than...
creativity but that that shaped it too so I'm not I'm not saying that
and then I'll come back to the question. But I'm not saying that there's not a place for technology in helping us evolve art form and creativity and inspire whole new realms of that. But we're mindful of that. I think you and I are very mindful of the kind of the good and the bad that technology presents.
Coming back to Omnivore and why it was done in that way, think part of it was that sense of wanting to do something that we didn't think had been done before in every sense. As I say, looking at the food system.
I can imagine, I can think of a variety of film docs that have looked at that in terms of feature docs, certain parts of it. But I think the way that we approached it, even the way we organized it, a series based around individual ingredients, the idea was to do something different. The pacing of it and the production style of it, we thought of films like Baraka as much, know, films that
Ben Liebmann (14:54.81)
in in certain circumstances, either have zero dialogue or very little dialogue. And we wanted that. We wanted to create something that let the stories unfold and almost let the stories tell themselves. Hence why we don't have a host on screen.
You know, there's no roving host with a microphone. We have a narrator who very occasionally will pop up on screen. There are episodes where he doesn't appear. There's an episode where he's there for I think three or four minutes over the over the one hour. There's others where he might be there for 30 seconds. That was an intentional.
kind of decision because again we felt who better to tell the stories than the people whose stories they were and one of the luxuries of streaming is you can allow them to do that in their own languages now. So even that was a consideration for us. you you're starting to see everything from the way we produced it, again the way we organized the episodes.
this idea of narrator over host, the whole thought of allowing the people whose stories they were to tell their own stories, focusing very much on the visuals, the whole cinematic approach to it. And as I say, often going periods of time where there is no dialogue at all. That's what brought us to Carrie. I mean, I'd met Carrie through Noma.
maybe around 2017, 2018. And in the very early days of kind of imagining this series and kind of again, looking at Attenborough as the benchmark of something that we wanted to create. Thinking of filmmakers who were known for that very visual style and again, telling stories without words. And that's what led us to Cary. Cary helped us.
Ben Liebmann (17:03.302)
kind of create that visual framework, that storytelling approach that between himself and Renee and Matt were really able to distill into what we saw. That's not to say though there wasn't resistance. You know, we found the home, I'm sure we'll talk about it at some point, but we found the home that we always wanted in Apple.
But there were others that we spoke to on that journey where, you know, there was resistance to this idea. There was resistance to, Renee not being on screen, you know, more not having that host. There was resistance to this, kind of production style that you and I, or the storytelling style that you and I are talking about. Make it fast, a pace. Let's see restaurants. Let's see talking heads and chefs. There was resistance even to,
the subject matter. I remember one conversation where somebody said it feels a little worthy, which still to this day makes me bristle. I, you know, we, want like, am like, are not worthy. No, this is too, it is if it felt it was too worthy that it was, that it was almost,
Mike Stricoff (18:13.445)
Like I am like you are not worthy.
Mike Stricoff (18:21.072)
Got it.
Ben Liebmann (18:27.12)
that it was almost, I mean, I think whether they felt it was finger -waving, educational, boring, worthy, don't, you know, the word was worthy. And I think what we believed and, you know, we looked to people like, you know, some of your audience may know.
production company, it's actually recently just been closed, but a production company called Participant Media. We looked at people like participant who kind of had this philosophy of storytelling with purpose and impact and that those two things don't have to run against each other. In actual fact, we believe audiences are increasingly looking for
stories that have purpose, that have impact, that make them think. Leave them with hope. Absolutely. I mean, I hope having seen some of the episodes that we dealing with some very significant issues. You know, we're dealing with social unrest and in the coffee episode, genocide in Rwanda. In the rice episode,
we're looking at the environment, the impact that the planet is now having on what we eat. In many ways as a result of what we eat having an impact on the planet. It's you know, we're seeing that circular process now. But we wanted to leave the audience with hope. But I believe we're very, you know, firm in our belief that
Programming with purpose can be just as entertaining as a blockbuster. It can be just as entertaining as a primetime, you know, kind of entertainment series or a scripted series. And that's what it was that we would, that's what it was that we were trying to create. And I think to you, to just to your point that you made about, you know, smelling the coffee before you take that sip.
Ben Liebmann (20:27.906)
We never wanted to tell people the decisions that we believe that they should make. Eat meat, don't eat meat, drink coffee, drink specialty coffee. What we just wanted to do was present stories.
that could inspire thought, inspire conversations so that the audience could make informed decisions. Whatever the decisions that they were that they were going to make, they're their decisions, but that they would make informed decisions. think, you know, one of the things that's run through the production of this series is this sense that we've become disconnected from the food system and that disconnection, which I guess, you know, in many ways is a reflection of how disconnected we've become to ourselves.
and to cultures and etc but that by being disconnected to the food system we're making decisions perhaps without any thought without any consideration and that's that has consequences and that we have to be more mindful in in the decisions that we take yeah i mean mission accomplished
Mike Stricoff (21:34.009)
Yeah. mean, mission accomplished, you know, I have, ordered myself tuna or bluefin tuna many, many times at sushi restaurants and have never once considered that they're caught across the world and flown in an ice box and land on my table prepared by a like all of that is like absolutely mission accomplished. I think like one really, it might sound like a stupid question.
Ben Liebmann (21:38.68)
You know, I have ordered myself tuna or bluefin tuna many, times at sushi restaurants and have never once considered that they're caught across the world and flown in an ice box and land on my table prepared by a chef. Like all of that is, you know, like absolutely mission accomplished. I think like one really, it might sound like a stupid question, but I want to ask it anyway. And there's a really good reason for why I'm asking it.
Mike Stricoff (22:02.673)
but I wanna ask it anyway and there's a really good reason for why I'm asking it. How did you decide the order of the episodes? And the reason that I ask is because I'm fascinated by the idea that in the modern world of streaming, most shows are serialized, right? They're trying to propel the audience through the narrative, right? From one all the way through because platform X has decided that that helps reduce subscriber churn or like.
Ben Liebmann (22:06.253)
How did you decide the order of the episodes? And the reason that I ask is because I'm fascinated by the idea that in the modern world of streaming, know, most shows are serialized, right? They're trying to propel the audience through the narrative, right? From the one all the way through because platform X has decided that that helps reduce subscriber churns or like that benefits their business in some way that
Mike Stricoff (22:30.351)
that benefits their business in some way that we don't know that they know. And so they go out into the community and sort of put out an RFP request for proposal and say, this is how we want it done so that we can achieve our goals. Now, episodic.
Ben Liebmann (22:34.455)
you know, we don't know that they know. And so they go out into the community and sort of put out an RFP request for proposal and say, this is how we want it done so that we can achieve our goals. are no cliffhangers. mean, going back to the partner that we had and they were our partner, they were our home with Apple was this show bucks the trend of all of that. Again, there is no host. There is no
Mike Stricoff (22:49.061)
Right. Right.
Ben Liebmann (23:04.087)
face that we see on screen in every episode whose journey you are following. There is no cliffhanger at the end of every episode which propels you, as you say, to watch the next episode. There is a through line, there is a connective tissue, but it's quite light on compared to what we usually see. how did, so from Apple's perspective in how you dealt with them, right?
Mike Stricoff (23:27.109)
How did, so how did, so from Apple's perspective in how you dealt with them, right? You're bucking this trend, you know, every platform is encouraging people to do this because everybody's sort of looking at the same data, right? Like they wouldn't just say it because they think it's cool. They're saying it because it's good for their business. So Apple's, what is Apple's perspective on that based on like your conversations with them? Like why are they then all of a sudden like, yeah, that's fine. We don't need to do that in this case.
Ben Liebmann (23:33.139)
you're bucking this trend, know, every platform is encouraging people to do this because everybody's sort of looking at the same data, right? Like they wouldn't just say it because they think it's cool. They're saying it because it's good for their business. So Apple's what is Apple's perspective on that based on like your conversations with them? Like why are they then all of a sudden like, yeah, that's fine. We don't need to do that in this case. I mean, I can't speak to the
business or strategic reasons why I mean I think The creative belief and the concept and what it represented and the way in which we wanted to tell it mean they are creator friendly you you Look at the talent that they work with you look at the talent that they have on on their own bench but you look at the talent that they work with both on screen and in the kind of production suite you can tell that they're talent friendly because you know
you're as good as the company you keep and Omnivore is keeping some pretty extraordinary company in terms of other creators that we sit alongside. I remember the pitch and Matt Goulding, know, co -creator writer of the series used to talk about it as a concept album. That was the analogy he would use is eight episodes, each episode built around one ingredient.
each episode with its own kind of cadence and style and technique that reflected the kind of underlying story of that episode. Tuna is about the, you know, the kind of global food economy, as you say, it's showing us that to eat the tuna that we do, whether it's at a sushi counter or bistro in Paris or wherever it may be.
That fish, that sentient being is captured in a thousands year old technique off the coast of Spain. It is then dropped in the deep freeze, it comes up in Tokyo where it's auctioned off to the highest bidder and then it's broken down and sent back to the world, including New York, including back to the coast of Spain. That episode follows a particular pace and style. The Chile episode is about
Ben Liebmann (25:58.366)
man's lust for, you know, spice, but really man's lust for life because mankind's lust for life. Because other than birds, we're the only species that eat chili and we've trained ourselves to eat chili because of that adrenaline rush that it gives us. So you look at that episode and it's quite frenetic, the pacing of it, you know, the visuals of it, including, you know, the ultimate scene in that particular episode.
Every episode has a different director. So the core production team were the same, but every episode has a different director that kind of lent themselves to that episode either because they were from that place in the case of the pig episode which is set in village in Spain, the monsoon episode which is probably set in India. I think creatively just Apple loved that idea.
What is that through line? Well the through line is of course that it is trying to tell a bigger story. The through line is Renée as narrator. Even if you don't see him as frequently as other shows you hear his voice. He's the guide that kind of takes you on that journey. The curiosity that sits behind it. But no you're right. It doesn't kind of conform to...
I mean, I don't want to make a sweeping statement, but I'd say modern media. it's, it's, it is almost kind of a callback to the way that we used to watch procedural television, standalone, standalone, standalone stories. I complained to my wife and I'm going to do the old man on the lawn thing where I miss these episodes. You can't like where it was just like, could just watch this 30 minutes and like you could step away. You don't have to follow a whole thing.
Mike Stricoff (27:30.872)
No question, no doubt about
Mike Stricoff (27:40.781)
don't even get me started. I complained to my wife and I'm gonna do the old man on the lawn thing where I miss these episodes where it was just like, you could just watch this 30 minutes and you could step away. You don't have to follow a whole thing. And I think that, I wonder if this, you guys are a little out front because I sometimes wonder now that the streaming era is sort of going into this age of being
Ben Liebmann (27:55.873)
And I think that like, I wonder if like this, you guys are like a little out front because I sometimes wonder like, now that the streaming era is sort of going into this age of like, you know, being mindful of costs, right? It's sort of like the, to put it lightly is sort of like the memo of the day. Like those more episodic shows.
Mike Stricoff (28:10.693)
mindful of cost, right? It's sort of like the, to put it lightly, is sort of like the memo of the day. Like those more episodic shows, it's a lot more scalable. You know, can make a lot more of them and they kind of, they can last longer because the narrative doesn't have to like go from A to B to Z, you know, over time. Like Seinfeld was nine episodes, characters didn't evolve at all, right, for nine years.
Ben Liebmann (28:22.546)
are, it's a lot more scalable, know, you can make a lot more of them. And they kind of, they can last longer because the narrative doesn't have to like go from A to B to Z, you know, over time. Like Seinfeld was nine episodes, characters didn't evolve at all, right? For nine years, right? Imagine that today, imagine watching a show and the main character doesn't evolve one inch for nine years. Like that just like would not happen today. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, look, is there...
Mike Stricoff (28:40.089)
Right? Imagine that today. Imagine watching a show and the main character doesn't evolve one inch for nine years. Like that just like would not happen today.
Ben Liebmann (28:56.326)
If there is a further evolution in the way we produce and consume content and we're able to play a part in that, then we're very humble to have played a part in it. you know, if, if this helps evolve food television in the way that chef's table did before it or parts unknown did before that, we'll be very humble to have, have played a part in that.
but yeah, I don't, mean, going back to the original question of the way we produce and consume content, whether that's short form video, long form video, music, mate, I, I, I don't know. I don't think any, I think to some degree, none of us know where this is going to end up. I think for me, the thing that will forever be constant is great content, great, great ideas.
great storytellers, great creative. If I remove the romanticism, great intellectual property will forever win the day in whatever form and format it is. In actual fact, I think as our media consumption and distribution becomes more fragmented across multiple platforms, multiple devices, different forms of media, you know,
When I was a lad, was TV, radio, music and film. Now it's TV on multiple platforms in different forms, film, both the same. The ultimate celestial jukebox allowing me to listen to what I want wherever I want, throw in social media. Our attention is spread in ways that I don't think we could have ever imagined.
But through that, I still believe, and don't get me started on kind of where AI could shift it, cause that's a separate conversation almost in itself, but I still believe that great stories, great storytellers, great IP will win the day. So great storytellers, right? You have Renee, right? You have,
Mike Stricoff (31:07.035)
So great storytellers, right? You have Renee, right? You have a great talent or like someone who could, it's not hard to imagine how he could be great talent in this space, right? He was, he did a cameo on the bear, I think season three, that was fun. I didn't know who he was at the time, now I do. So like fun thing for me personally to just like, you know, kind of like step into your world a little bit in that way.
Ben Liebmann (31:14.396)
great talent or like someone who could, it's not hard to imagine how he could be great talent in the space, right? He was, he did a cameo on the bear, I think season three, that was fun. I didn't know who he was at the time, now I do. So like fun thing for me personally to just like, know, kind of like step into your world a little bit in that way. That place was my inadvertent commons office for.
Seven years, pretty beautiful office, I will say. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But so say, go back. Yeah, So, you were talking before about how some of the other platforms wanted to see more of him. They wanted to sort of like turn him, you know, really like leverage that talent, leverage the personality, right? Like that's what the whole creator economy is based on, right? And you see it like in the space of food content.
Mike Stricoff (31:43.898)
Is that right?
yeah, yeah. Yeah. So Renee, you know, you, you were talking before about how some of the other platforms wanted to see more of him. They wanted to sort of like turn him, you know, really like leverage that talent, rel rel leverage the personality, right? Like that's what the whole creator economy is based on. Right. And, you see it like in, in the space of food content now, it's like, yes, there's a master chef and chef's table and
Ben Liebmann (32:10.494)
Now, it's like, yes, there's MasterChef and Chef's Table and like TV shows, but there's also just like Gordon Ramsay shows you how to make eggs on YouTube, right? Of which I'm still not sure if you should like put salt in the eggs before you scramble them. let me tell you, though that scrambled egg recipe is the best scrambled egg recipe that I've ever done. - That Gordon made you? 100%. Follow it to a T. I guarantee you.
Mike Stricoff (32:15.663)
like TV shows, but there's also just like Gordon Ramsay shows you how to make eggs on YouTube, right? Of which I'm still not sure if you should like put salt in the eggs before you scramble them. Like he says you
Mike Stricoff (32:34.821)
That Gordon made you want.
Mike Stricoff (32:39.547)
Okay.
Ben Liebmann (32:40.575)
Much to my wife's frustration because she's like, can't you just whip it in a bowl and throw it in the pan? I'm like, nope, this is the way that Gordon does it and it works. But you know. Yeah, and it's funny because like everybody who has seen that now doesn't put salt in the egg later, right? Like that's now because of that, like largely because of that video. Yeah. Unless you like were our professional chef or.
Mike Stricoff (32:46.949)
No. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because like everybody who has seen that now doesn't put salt in the actual later, right? Like that's now because of that, like largely because of that video, unless you like were our professional chef or have some other way of knowing that. Like I didn't know that. I was always putting the salt in the, in the scramble eggs in the bowl, of course. But then like I saw
Ben Liebmann (33:05.062)
have some other way of knowing that. Like I didn't know that. I was always putting the salt in the bowl, of course. But then like I saw some other chefs say, you should actually put the salt in because it does this. Anyway, sort of going out of tangent here about how stupid the internet is in many respects. But like in terms of talent, right? Like why was Rene drawn to this, like as he describes it or described it,
Mike Stricoff (33:14.435)
Some other chefs say, you should actually put the salt in because it does this. Anyway, sort of going on a tangent here about how stupid the internet is in many respects. But like in terms of talent, right? Like why was Rene drawn to this, like as he describes it or described it, the planet earth of food, right? Like why was he drawn to that and not to like making himself more prominent in the storytelling?
Ben Liebmann (33:33.746)
the planet earth of food, right? Why was he onto that not to like making himself more prominent in storytelling? And he'd been offered all of those things. you know, he, he's talked about being offered every hosting gig on every food cook cooking competition series, to be the kind of face of a kind of food and travel doc, follow along doc.
cooking challenge series. and him saying no to those things isn't us or kind of him saying, you know, kind of looking down on, on those productions. I mean, certainly not from my case for working it, as I said, before joining Noma, I worked at Fremantle Media and Shine and the crown jewels of, of my time there was a small cooking series called MasterChef that's made in
55 countries around the world and broadcast in 120. So it's, it's not about those things aren't important or kind of valuable. I mean, ultimately, whether it's in, you know, a cooking competition, a follow along doc, a short form content series, a stand and stir. At the end of the day, it's kind of a celebration of food and people's love of it. So, you know, I, it wasn't a,
him passing on all of those things wasn't because those things weren't you know right they just weren't right for him it's not what he wanted to do i mean i think the thing about Omivore is it's not a renee redzepi documentary it's not a gnome documentary but at the same time it's both of those things and that's perhaps the reason why he wasn't drawn to it it was it was his idea
I'm sure there have been others who talked about this idea and you know or had this concept of Looking at them and you know that the planet earth of food, but you know what?
Ben Liebmann (35:44.954)
The reason why he wanted to do this was it is ultimately a representation of his philosophy of food and you know the connection to craft and the connection to the creativity and the connection to the people that feed us. You know whether they be the chefs and the cooks.
or the servers or the baristas, but going back to the start of the system, the farmers and the growers and the pickers. You know, so this series for him was kind of a representation of or a manifestation of everything that he stands for, which is that connection, connection to the food system and the kind of community that wraps around that.
Mike Stricoff (36:35.163)
There's, that's so interesting. love Renee just doing what he wants to do, not, you know, doing what he's supposed to do, right? He just, it's apparently, you know, the kind of guy that just doesn't want to do that. He just like, doesn't want to take his name and his likeness and like splast it all over social media all the time and be the star and the, you know, yelling at people on the competition shows and that sort of thing. Just not what he wants to be doing.
Ben Liebmann (36:36.442)
That's so interesting. love Rene just doing what he wants to do, not, you know, doing what he's supposed to do, right? He just is apparently, you know, the kind of guy that just doesn't want to do that. He just like doesn't want to take his name and his likeness and like, blast it all over social media all the time. again, the bar and the yelling at people on the competition shows and that sort of thing. Just not what he wants to be doing.
Again, it's not a judgment call on any of the people who make those shows and do those things. Some of them are his closest friends. Some of them are my closest friends. It's just, again, it's not right for him. He's just very clear on his personal purpose. even stepping away from Omnivore, if you look at the business of Noma,
Mike Stricoff (37:17.219)
Exactly. But what I think is...
Ben Liebmann (37:35.287)
it flies against every other kind of path that a restaurant and a chef of his caliber and acclaim would undertake. know, he, there is only one gnomer. There'll only be one gnomer. The traditional and inverted commerce path would be to have gnomers in every major food city around the world. And...
the, you know, for chefs whites that would be covered in logos or, know, and again, there's no, I, I, neither of us have any criticism of anybody who does that. It's just not what he wanted to do. he's, he's very clear. He's very singular on what's important to him, what the end goal is for him and the steps that he wants to take to get there. That's yeah. Again, yeah.
Mike Stricoff (38:19.151)
Yeah, totally.
Mike Stricoff (38:30.481)
That's, yeah, again, yeah. If you wanna be the one on the competition shows or blasting yourself all over social media, knock yourself out, 100%. I do think there is something really interesting though in this world, especially for someone like Renee, someone who is considered quote talent or a creative, someone in that sort of space, there's so much pressure on you to be putting yourself out there. Monetize your likeness, do this, do that. There's something to scarcity.
Ben Liebmann (38:32.826)
If you want to be the one on the competition shows or blasting yourself all over social media, knock yourself out. Go for it. 100%. I do think there is something really interesting though in this world, especially for someone like Renee, someone who is considered quote talent or a creator, someone in that sort of space. There's so much pressure on you to be putting yourself out there. Monetize your likeness, do this, do that. There's something to scarcity, right? Where like,
Mike Stricoff (39:00.185)
Right? Where like, because Renee is not all over all of these platforms, making egg recipe videos, putting his restaurant all over the world, that when you do see him, it's even more valuable. Right? And I think like, that's just like not a path that very many people are, are going down these days.
Ben Liebmann (39:02.616)
because Renee is not all over all of these platforms, making egg recipe videos, putting his restaurant all over the world that when you do see him, it's even more valuable. And I think like, that's just like not a path that very many people are, are going down these dates. No, he, it's, again, it's always been very intentional. I'm not suggesting that that was, that's the strategy of scarcity builds.
value, whether that be monetary value or otherwise, but it's certainly, it's certainly the byproduct of the strategy. you know, when we, when we, or when he, when we launch a series, it has the scale and the gravitas, not only of the show that was produced, but the fact that there hadn't been a variety of series that had come before it.
The restaurant, Renee has one brand partnership, American Express, which they've been working with for probably 10 years and that relationship has grown and it's evolved and it's much more multifaceted than where it began. Perhaps in part because, you know, in the seven years that I was there, I kind of looked at almost through the lens of a major sporting sponsorship.
as opposed to the way that restaurants had traditionally worked with brands. But there's one partner. Now, that's not because we've granted exclusivity and we won't, Noma wouldn't work with any one partner. It's just because there's a trust there, there's a relationship there. But yes, to your point, the value to American Express is they effectively get that gravitas and that exclusivity because, you know, Noma.
the approach that Renee and Noma have taken is, let's not put our name and likeness across a whole variety of categories. And again, can you hear say it? There's no wrong answer. It's not a, it's not to say that those that have done that, haven't achieved whatever it is that they want to achieve in terms of building their brand, equity, awareness, financial return. It's just, it wasn't, it wasn't what he wanted.
Ben Liebmann (41:27.126)
So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I blast links from this podcast all over LinkedIn all the time. So I am certainly like not one of the scarcity people right now. So like, you know, here's to all of us non -scarcity people who are constantly posting trying to get our message out there. No doubt about it. Yeah. One more question directly on Omnivore.
Mike Stricoff (41:29.445)
Yeah. I mean, I blast links from this podcast all over LinkedIn all the time. So I am certainly like not one of the scarcity people right now. so like, you know, here's to all of us, non -scarcity people who are constantly posting, to get our message out there. no doubt about it. Did the one more question directly on omnivore. Did you try the boot orange Copenhagen?
Ben Liebmann (41:55.629)
Did you try the boot orange Copenhagen pepper? Have you had it yourself from episode one, the end when they all eat the pepper? No spoilers. I mean, this is a spoiler for episode one of Omnivore. But have you tried that, have you actually tasted it? It wasn't there. Haven't tried that particular, what they call super hot. I have had super hot. Would I have?
Mike Stricoff (41:59.301)
pepper, have you had it yourself from episode one, the end when they all eat the pepper? No spoilers. I mean, I this is spoiler for episode one of Omnivore. But have you tried that, have you actually tasted it?
Ben Liebmann (42:25.933)
been part of that scene, yes, perhaps through a bit of peer pressure, but also I am one of those people that is addicted to chili and spice.
much to the frustration of again, a wife who watches me just put chili, not sauce, but kind of like a chili or whatever onto anything and everything. But we were actually in Los Angeles on the tour recently. We were at a restaurant called Anna Jack in LA, extraordinary Thai restaurant. And it was, it was almost like the last or the second last dinner before we all parted ways after this 10 day tour between New York and
and LA and at the very end, the end of the savoury before we were going to have the dessert, Justin, the head chef brought out a plate of super hots. And we didn't eat them whole. I certainly didn't. But we all took a bite. So yeah. Yes.
Mike Stricoff (43:29.969)
Well, what like as I'm watching it and it was such a fun scene for so many reasons. It was a great payoff from the episode, right? Cause like you guys even have the visual chart like building up, right? Throughout the episode from the string peppers all the way up to the boot. The boot orange Copenhagen is the full formal name of it. B -U -H -T I've done my research, believe me. Cause I wanted to know about that pepper.
Ben Liebmann (43:30.804)
What like as I'm watching it and it was such a fun scene. Yeah, for so many reasons. It a great payoff from the episode. It was like you guys even have the visual chart building up. Yeah. Right. That's about the episode from the string peppers all the way up to the boot. The boot or Orange Copenhagen is your formal name. B -U -H -T. I've done my research. me, because I wanted to know about that pepper.
Mike Stricoff (43:58.885)
You're watching them do this after all of this build up to it. And then they like, they, didn't realize that this was going to be, let's all have a pepper and then go to work. Like let's all eat this crazy hot pepper and then run the number one restaurant on earth.
Ben Liebmann (43:59.074)
You're watching them do this after all of this build up to it. And then they like, they, didn't realize that this was going to be, let's all have a pepper and then go to work. let's all eat this crazy hot pepper and then run the number one restaurant on earth. Like that, that to me is like, I mean, people in the food industry are just amazing. So Renee will tell the story that one of the guests that night, there were a lot of friends.
Mike Stricoff (44:14.961)
Like that to me is like, I mean, people in the food industry are just amazing.
Ben Liebmann (44:27.673)
friends and family in the house that night, there was one of the guests that evening is somebody who has dined the most at Noma. Is that right? Yeah. And in fact, Renee said that, so this particular guest has dined at Noma in the hundreds, which... this person is like the four square mayor of Noma. And to put it in perspective again, as Renee will say, in the early days of Noma, Noma is 21 years old now.
Mike Stricoff (44:39.13)
Is that right?
Mike Stricoff (44:47.781)
Like this person is like the four square mayor of Noma, essentially.
Ben Liebmann (44:57.624)
you could walk in off the street, you know, that the success that it is, that is achieved was not an overnight success. So this person was, you know, a local was part of that, you know, repeat patronage community at the early days. And he said that this was the most fun night that he'd ever had at Noma. and I think it was the shared experience. It, you know, if you, when you watch that episode, you see the shared experience, good and bad of the team.
in terms of tasting that chili and the, and seeing the effects kick in. But then you have the shared experience of the guests and then you have the shared experiences of them together. And not to kind of now go with the reveal, but isn't that what food and hospitality is about? It's the shared experience. I was talking with somebody about it yesterday of a lot of the things that you explore in this increasingly digital connected
world, the value of the shared experience, whether it's sitting in a cinema and laughing together or going to a concert and you know that moment of when the band steps on stage or the artist steps on stage or going to a restaurant and sharing a meal, whether it's around the table or around the dining room, those things are more important than ever.
I think that that's what that guest was tapping into. was just the fun. It was the conviviality and the fun of that shared experience. That's so well said. I love everything about that. And there's so much real world evidence to back that up, right? Like in this age of we're all staring at our phones and we're post -COVID and all of that, going to something with a bunch of people is still like unbeatable.
Mike Stricoff (46:32.273)
That's so well said. I love everything about that. And there's so much real world evidence to back that up, right? Like in this age of we're all staring at our phones and we're post COVID and all of that, going to something with a bunch of people is still like unbeatable. Like technology hasn't found a way to beat that yet. Like just take the Olympics, for example, You Tokyo 2020 took place in 21.
Ben Liebmann (46:51.318)
Like technology hasn't found a way to beat that yet. know, like just take the Olympics, for example, right? You Tokyo 2020, took place in 21. No fans were there at all. Nobody cared. just like didn't, not nobody cared, but there was no buzz. There was no excitement. I don't want to, you know, slander my NBC friends, right, here in the States. But it certainly wasn't the like cultural sensation that the Olympics can be, especially the summer games.
Mike Stricoff (47:00.707)
No fans were there at all. Nobody cared. just like didn't, not nobody cared, but there was no buzz. There was, there was no excitement. I don't want to, you know, slander my NBC friends, right? here in the States, but, it certainly wasn't the like cultural sensation that the Olympics can be, especially summer games. And then you look at what just happened in Paris and it's a totally different situation. I mean, here in the States, like the Olympics were everywhere. The numbers were huge. Like the ratings are starting to come out now. They're massive.
Ben Liebmann (47:21.078)
And then you look at what just happened in Paris and it's a totally different situation. mean, here in the States, like the Olympics were everywhere. The numbers were huge. 30, 30, 34 million viewers. Up 80 % or something from Tokyo. it's not like there was something materially different. I don't believe that like Paris was a huge reason other than the time zone. I think it's just that...
Mike Stricoff (47:32.913)
up 80 % or something from Tokyo. And it's not like there was something materially different. I don't believe that like Paris was a huge reason other than the time zone. I think it's just that there were people there. It's a big cultural event. It was very exciting. A lot of stars were there talking about it and they didn't benefit from any of that tailwind in Tokyo. yeah, like this whole, like the digital world has not found a way to replace.
Ben Liebmann (47:47.105)
There were people there. It's a big cultural event. was very exciting. A lot of stars were there talking about it. And they didn't benefit from any of that tailwind in Tokyo. yeah, like this whole, like the digital world has not found a way to replace the shared experience yet. And I'm actually really interested. There is a company you should check out. It's called Cosm. They're sort of combining the two. It's very new. They have one in LA and they use technology.
Mike Stricoff (48:01.573)
the shared experience yet. And I'm actually really interested. There is a company you should check out. It's called Cosm. They're sort of combining the two. It's very new. They have one in LA and they use technology to create an amazing in -person experience to watch sports. And it's very cool. And then also here in the States of the Sphere, which is like getting all of this. It's like this
Ben Liebmann (48:16.8)
to create an amazing in -person experience to watch sports. And it's very cool. And then also here in the States of the Sphere, which is like getting all of this, it's like this technological marvel, but it's designed to get you in the building. It's not designed to not have you in the building. So I'm interested in how we can use technology to make the in -person experience better, not replace it. And both for the...
Mike Stricoff (48:30.181)
technological marvel, but it's designed to get you in the building. It's not designed to not have you in the building. So I'm interested in like how we can use technology to make the in -person experience better, not replace it, you know?
Ben Liebmann (48:44.49)
guest, the consumer, the audience, but also the people that are creating those events and experiences. You know, it should, it should, it needs to work on both sides. And I think often too often, I was talking, funny enough, I was talking yesterday with a two time founder, restaurant tech company. he's exited both times and one of them
The promise that they'd set out was to do that, was to make the guests experience better through technology. And it had been an enormous success. The counter though was it hadn't necessarily, in some way in his mind, it had diminished the value and the importance of the people in the industry. It hadn't worked both ways. And I think that's the thing with technology is,
If it works in anyone's favor, other than big corporations, often it only benefits one side of the table. And I don't mean that in a hospitality restaurant sense. I just mean the figurative. It benefits one side. And I'm heartened by conversations that I, and look, whether it's talk and what's realized is different, but I'm heartened by conversations of new types of founders who were again, just use that, that language.
looking to cleverly, thoughtfully use technology to lift both sides as opposed to just taking it from one at the expense of the other.
Mike Stricoff (50:21.199)
Okay, so I earlier, like, we obviously talked a lot about Noma and Omnivore. It's sort of like that sort of section of your experience. I skimmed over a lot of other things. And like some of this stuff has come up in our conversation here, like Shine and other things and on your, you know, on your LinkedIn profile, which is like, you got to click through it like three or four times to get to like, to get to the beginning. Like in the best way.
Ben Liebmann (50:21.213)
Okay, so I earlier, like, we took, obviously talked a lot about Noma and Omnivore. It's sort of like that sort of section of your experience. I skimmed over a lot of other things and like some of this stuff has come up in our conversation here, like Shine and other things and on your, you know, on your LinkedIn profile, which is like, you got to click through it like three or four times to get to like, to get to the beginning. Like in the best way.
Mike Stricoff (50:51.067)
But, but like, but you're, you're this journey of yours, like you might call it non -traditional, right? As it's, as you've like, you've sort of worked and gone through and led teams and companies and founded and done all these things across all these different sectors. I guess my super basic question for you is like, why have you done so many things? You know, like what's, like where, why are you sort of like,
Ben Liebmann (50:51.157)
But, you're, you're this journey of yours, like you might call it non -traditional. Yeah. Right. As it's, you've like, you've sort of worked and gone through and led teams and companies and founded and all these things across all these different sectors. I guess my super basic question for you is like, why have you done so many things? You know, like what's like where, why are you sort of like,
Mike Stricoff (51:21.073)
drawn to like going to like new industries and sectors over time.
Ben Liebmann (51:21.183)
drawn to like going to like new industries and sectors over time? Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I've done four. Really. If I, if I kind of, and that's certainly the way that I look at it. there's music, there's film and television.
there's hospitality. There's this new chapter, is to be candid, just trying to smash that all together in, in, know, in, in, can kind of touch on that. The fourth is I did do a three year stint in telco land. I'm going to date myself for your audience. the birth of 3G. So that's, that's, that's how long we're talking about, which is when the telcos first believe that they were going to be media companies. And I was leaving music at the time I'd been a
Mike Stricoff (51:59.77)
I'm
Ben Liebmann (52:09.558)
Warner Music for six and a half years. I'd been there for the end of the heyday and the beginning of the disruption as I like to call it. I was the second employee of what was then called New Media. It wasn't even digital. New Media was a marketing function but ultimately there to drive the sales of $20, $30 pieces of plastic. And then Napster came and pulled the rug from under the feet of the industry. Now
I was young enough not to talk about age, but I was, I was, you know, that was my first job out of university, that I hadn't necessarily been chipped by the industry in terms of being locked to where in the, where in the business of selling plastic. and my then boss and I at the time kind of, it was interesting. I, and I'm, and you've gotten a sense by now.
Storyteller going or in different directions. I'll come back to that question in a sec, but He and it's a piece that that is befitting of the show that that's kind of you I remember he and I remember he and I looking at that Napster interface and if you remember in the bottom right corner it said this many people are trading this many songs and The two of us said and he had also had a non -traditional career to that point. He was a chef funnily enough in New York
Mike Stricoff (53:09.713)
It's a piece that is befitting of the show that you just executed.
Ben Liebmann (53:33.223)
had come to come to Australia to follow a girl, bound his way into the early ISPs and then became then the head, the first head of new media for Warner Music Asia Pacific.
But again, we hadn't been lifers in the industry and the two of us sat there and this is not to belittle the craft or the creativity of the industry, but we looked at it and we said, if that was Unilever, Unilever would say there's a million people who want what we have, but just not in the form that we're selling it. Or if we were Coca -Cola, they'd say they want Coke, but they don't want it in the one liter bottle. They want it in the 375 milliliter can. So let's do it in the can.
and maybe we'll do it in the six pack and maybe we'll do it in the case of 24 and I think that was that sense of, and I think that's maybe where the industry lost its way for some period of time, is they'd become so wedded to the format, that piece of plastic, because the idea, and I always just, you know, always bristle with the thought people have, which was, well, it was a $30 piece of plastic that only cost $1 .50 to make, so there was...
$28 .50 of pure profit. It was like, no, because that doesn't reflect the significant investment that the artist made or the songwriter made and then the producers made and all of that. but the industry had kind of lost its way. And so I then went to Telco land for a three year stint because the pitch to me was help us build a media platform, bring in newspapers, bring in film studios, bring in what was at the time the first live news.
channel over mobile, live sports as and when they happened, music etc. And we built those things and it was ahead of its time as it was for all the telcos but what I realized was they didn't care for the content and the creators behind it in the way that I did.
Ben Liebmann (55:37.763)
saw that content as I'm not saying they were a dump pipe, but they saw that those con that content is just ones and zeros. And I think that's a very long answer to your very short question of the industries that I've worked in are ultimately very creative industries. They are dependent on a human capital on both sides of the table. You know, they are so dependent upon
the best of what they do, creating the best that they can. And then they're dependent upon an audience to receive that in many ways with the intent that it's been produced. And that creates a dynamic. And it's a dynamic that was very familiar for me in music and television and film and in hospitality. They are ultimately these very creative.
human capital dependent industries. There are very few industries other than those where a bad review can send a restaurant out of business. I've seen that happen four weeks, five weeks after.
restaurant can close because of just the material impact of a bad review, a TV series that was meant to launch or was going to launch in the old vernacular, primetime. It didn't launch well following week. It's on a Sunday afternoon or it's taken off the air. Music, an album that was going to launch top 10, launches top 50 and then a career is over. That created a dynamic that was very familiar to me.
and passionate for those individuals, those industries. I think chefs, musicians, showrunners, songwriters are some of the most important and creative, valuable voices that we have in our community. And too often they've been taken advantage of either by big business or big tech. And I've tried to spend a career
Ben Liebmann (57:42.234)
protecting and valuing and almost translating for them. You know, I'll often flippantly refer to myself as the suit amongst the creatives, even though I'm in a pair of jeans and a,
shirt, a button down shirt without a tie that I can, I can sit with the creative community and make them feel comfortable and make them feel valued and make them feel protected. And then I can work with them or on their behalf to create opportunities, whether that be in media or business or whatever it might be. at the end of the day, do those things because I love them. The things I love the most aside from family, you know, is
I love the restaurants. I love dining. I love music.
I television. you know, me leaving Noma wasn't a reflection of not loving it. I could have stayed there forever. It's one of the most wonderful places with the most wonderful group of people. I left cause I wanted to do more producing Omnivore and Scratched an Itch again of, I miss that world that I'd been in before. And starting Understory was this idea of, I don't want to pick a lane. I'm not good with picking lines. I don't want to pick a line. I don't want to go back to media and I don't want to necessarily
stay in hospitality, I want to see if I can create something, even if it's just for me, I want to see if I can create something that allows me to say yes again. When people call and say, Hey, I've got an idea. Can you help? Or are you interested? Yes. You know, if I am, yes, I can, I can have that conversation, but something that also just allowed me to be around these industries that I love. For me, it's very linear. For me, it makes complete sense. I know for some people they look at it and go, how does, how does that work?
Ben Liebmann (59:27.984)
But look, as I say, it all makes sense to me. That's amazing. So, all right, one more question for you. When you guys get picked up for season two of Omnivore. In the hands of the gods, but go on. From your mouth to the gods' ears. Yeah, mean, yeah. Like, we could do eight more ingredients. I'm not sure what those ingredients would be.
Mike Stricoff (59:35.407)
That's amazing. So, all right. One more question for you. When you guys get picked up for season two of Omnivore.
could. Yeah, I mean, yeah, more, let's we could do eight more ingredients. I'm not sure what those ingredients would be. But like, I'm sure you guys had a list of the ones that didn't quite make the cut.
Ben Liebmann (59:56.461)
But like, I'm sure you guys had a list of what the big white boy There's a white boy. There's a white boy and a shared doc that Matt and Renee have created together of hundreds of ingredients that aren't just delicious ingredients, but ingredients that tell or allow us to tell or others to tell extraordinary stories. yeah. So my question to you is, is grapes on the list? Because I just want to see you guys
Mike Stricoff (01:00:18.577)
So my question to you is, is grapes on the list? Because I just want to see you guys shoot the winemaking process, like the way that you guys shot the salt farmers in France. Which by the way, I went to Amazon and bought some of that salt immediately. So I would like to see you guys shoot the winemaking process. Can you commit to that right now if you get picked up for season two?
Ben Liebmann (01:00:25.439)
shoot the winemaking process, like the way that you guys shot the salt farmers in France. Which, by the way, I went to Amazon and bought some of that salt immediately. So I would like to see you guys shoot the winemaking process. Can you commit to that right now if you get picked up for season two? Yes, I could imagine Grape would be there. It's absolutely on that list. It's one we've been talking about in the event that we were to get a second season and touch wood.
Mike Stricoff (01:00:46.235)
Good.
Ben Liebmann (01:00:55.107)
We will. And I won't be able to share it though. There is an idea that Renee and Matt have had about how they want to produce the episode that I think would be pretty special. Pretty damn extraordinary actually. As much a nod to Chili in terms of that pace and that style. There's an idea that they have for the grape episode if we're given that opportunity to make it. I think you would, I think you'd love it. my God, let's...
Mike Stricoff (01:01:22.935)
my God, let's come on. Yeah, right, I know. Okay, Ben, thank you so much for joining. Let me know when that grapes episode drops in like two or three years. I will be watching. Super great to have you on. Thank you for spending the time.
Ben Liebmann (01:01:24.26)
How's that for a cliffhanger? Yeah, right? I know. OK, Ben, thank you so much for joining. Let me know when that grapes episode drops in like two or three years. I will be watching. Super great to have you on. Thank you for spending the time. I appreciate you asking me. Thanks for having me on. OK.