Defining Hospitality

In today’s episode, Dan sits down to talk with a fiery design duo who have overcome new business challenges and thrived in the interior design industry. They are the co-founders and current partners of Watts & Dray: Vanessa Watts and Erika Dray. The two provide insights into their journey from creative director and fashion designer into partners who built a company from scratch. Take a listen and hear their story, as well as some valuable insights!

Takeaways: 
  • The importance of genuine human connection and attentiveness in hospitality can't be overstated. Leaders should foster an environment where team members feel genuinely cared for and where they, in turn, extend that care to clients and colleagues alike.
  • Hospitality is not just for the elite but should be extended to everyone, regardless of their background or status. This inclusive approach can help create a more welcoming and supportive team culture.
  • Starting and running a business often involves numerous setbacks. Leaders should be prepared to navigate these challenges with resilience and adaptability, learning from mistakes and constantly iterating on their approach.
  • While passion and spontaneity are crucial, having a well-thought-out plan and understanding business dynamics like cash flow and client acquisition can significantly impact success.
  • Allow room for wild and innovative ideas, and don’t be afraid to pursue unconventional projects. 
  • Building a business with a partner involves clear communication, respect, and a shared vision.
  • Don't wait for the perfect moment or perfect plan to start. Begin your entrepreneurial journey with the understanding that learning and adjustments are part of the process.

Quote of the Show:
  • “At that point in my career, I had never designed anything on my own. It had always been through a studio, for studio clients, and no one had ever asked me to design anything on my own, but I have some pretty wild ideas about what I think the world should look like.” - Vanessa Watts
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Creators & Guests

Host
Dan Ryan
Host of Defining Hospitality
Producer
Rayanne Pruitt

What is Defining Hospitality?

Welcome to Defining Hospitality, the podcast focused on highlighting the most influential figures in the hospitality industry. In each episode we provide 1 on 1, in depth interviews with experts in the industry to learn what hospitality means to them. We feature expert advice on working in the industry, behind the scenes looks at some of your favorite brands, and in depth explorations of unique hospitality projects.

Defining Hospitality is hosted by Founder and CEO of Agency 967, Dan Ryan. With over 30 years of experience in hospitality, Dan brings his expertise and passion to each episode as he delves into the latest trends and challenges facing the industry.

Episodes are released every week on Wednesday mornings.

To listen to episodes, visit https://www.defininghospitality.live/ or subscribe to Defining Hospitality wherever you get your podcasts.

DH - Watts and Dray
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[00:00:00] What I do is inconsequential. Why I do what I do is I get to shorten people's journeys every day. What I love about our hospitality industry is that it's our mission to make people feel cared for while on their journeys. Together we'll explore what hospitality means in the built environment, in business, and in our daily lives.

I'm Dan Ryan and this is Defining Hospitality.

Dan: Today's guests are a duo of designers who are bringing a fresh eye to interior design. While recently formed, their studio has quickly garnered some cult like status. Through innovative design, they're making a global impact on the world of luxury hospitality. They are partners at Watts and Dre. Ladies and gentlemen, Vanessa Watts and Erica Dre.

Welcome ladies.

Erika: Hi.

vanessa: Thanks, Dan.

Erika: Yeah, thanks, Dan.

Dan: okay, so I, I think we're doing this Recording on the premise that I love entrepreneurs and, [00:01:00] um, being an entrepreneur is hard. I will, I looked up some stats and I just want to share with everyone that 90 percent of startups fail out of those 10 percent don't make it past their first year. You guys have been around for two years.

You're working on some pretty cool projects. You've made it through the gauntlet, so to speak. and so I want to talk a lot about that because, um, Erica, you come from fashion, Vanessa, you come from design and you kind of merged together and created this really cool, um, passionate company. And I really respect that.

Oh, and the stats for everyone listening, it's even lower for women owned businesses. So let's just. Take a moment to celebrate, sort of round of applause. Um, so congratulations. I'm, um, it's like a, an incredible feat. And I think also by virtue of having you two on, you know, I like impacting other people and shortening other [00:02:00] people's journeys, like I say, in the beginning of the thing, which, um, it really lights me up.

And when I think about success. over my career, it used to be like monetary or, you know, how much revenue the business is doing or profit or whatever. But to me, it's like it's impact and how, how I impact others. So I want everyone who's listening to just listen and it's possible and it's hard and you got to keep going.

And we're going to talk about that experience in a minute. So, before we get into it, Because of the title of the podcast defining hospitality and we'll start with Erica who comes from fashion a fashion background How do you define hospitality? And what what what do you feel about hospitality?

Erika: Well, for me, I think it's, it's the attentiveness. It's the consideration. I think it's people being genuine in their actions. Overall, I really love human connection. [00:03:00] So I think that a simple smile goes a really, really long way. And I don't think it necessarily has to come from the people who are formally trained.

You know, you can walk into a five star luxury hotel and expect it. However, getting it from your neighborhood bodega is Just as important, right? It's again, it's this human connection, this interaction that you're having with people in your community as well. And I think it almost is even more important that when you receive that level of, you know, kindness, Because it may not necessarily be expected, right?

When you go into these luxury hotels or these higher end restaurants and establishments, they have been formally trained to behave that way. Is it genuine? Is it not genuine? You know, sometimes you can tell, I feel like I am very empathetic. And so I feel people's [00:04:00] energy very easily. And so you can genuinely tell when, um, It almost becomes rote for these people.

They're just doing it because they're sort of on autopilot. So when you go to an establishment that may not have that level of formal training and you receive that level of kindness, it feels all the more warmer. you know, I'm a people person. I love people. I love talking to people. I look at strangers as.

Friends I haven't met yet. I just, you know, I like interaction. I like hearing people's stories. I mean, you know, I think it's really, I think, you know, humans and their stories are really interesting, right? They're really interesting to sort of find out their backgrounds and, why they've made the decisions that they've made, et cetera.

Dan: Yeah, I appreciate how Okay, I get it on the formally trained side. So that's awesome But I agree with you in that the sense when you have that surprise experience of hospitality and real and caring. Um, it's that much more wholesome and appreciated from, for [00:05:00] me and you.

And now let's switch over to Vanessa.

Vanessa, how about you? what does hospitality mean to you?

vanessa: to me, I think hospitality is It's kind of like non judgmental graciousness. Um, I think we had a long time, I mean, in this country, it's the history of the country, honestly. Um, but we had a long time in nightlife and hospitality and things like that very recently where the hospitality was kind of defined as an in or out sort of thing.

Like there was the velvet rope at the clubs and you would get selected or not. And, you know, that that's leaving out, I don't know how much of the population, but to me, I feel like the future is not that idea. Um, we're all embracing each other, you know, people are getting, um, wiser when it comes to, you know, like our differences are much.

Less than our similarities. So to me, when [00:06:00] you can get this kind of like love and welcoming from an establishment, be it a hotel or the bodega or, you know, the train conductor this morning, I had this really lovely train conductor on the subway, like say, good morning, it's like, what you're driving the subway, like this is above and beyond, but this idea of.

Um, extending that to everyone kind of equally or, um, extending it to anyone without considering who they are first, to me, that's real hospitality. Um, like the idea that we're not that different, we're all the same and we're all equally deserving of, um, good treatment and, um, Yeah. I think, I think it's something like that.

Like if we could all receive good hospitality, I feel like the world would be a better place. Like if everyone could be, um, experience that thing that you get in the five star hotel, honestly, where there, we actually just were in a hotel the other day where we had this incredible hospitality experience.

from the general manager. [00:07:00] She held the elevator door for everyone. I mean, it was just an absurd number of, number of people coming and going in this one rickety elevator that wasn't working very well and it was really hot. And she was so polite to every single person regardless. And some people were cool about it.

Some people were like, I'm angry. It's hot. It's New York. We're in the slow elevator. Um, But it didn't faze her at all. She gave everyone equal, really kind, lovely treatment. And I feel like when you experience that, it really bowls you over. You're like, Oh wow, this is a wonderful feeling. And if everybody could get that, if we could give that to each other in all environments, I feel like we would be in a much better place.

Dan: Hmm. Thank you. Okay. Now I want to shift back to kind of what we were talking about at the beginning as far as the entrepreneurial journey. So both of you had different lives Well, you, but you've known each other for a very long time. So that's, um, Pretty cool. And that can be, that can work well or not work well, depending, [00:08:00] because sometimes partnerships are formed.

We're with someone who, you know, really, really well, but you're not really clear on roles, responsibilities, um, and vision. So you've known each other for a long time. and I'm sure you spoke about forming a business together over the years, but walk us through like the origin story of Watts Trey.

Like, how did you get up the courage to Take that first step together.

vanessa: We're laughing. You're not going to believe this.

Erika: um, so it was a psychic.

Dan: Get out of here. Wait,

Erika: I have been for many years looking to pivot out of my career and you know, I knew that I, I didn't want to do fashion anymore. It was really monotonous. It was getting pretty cyclical. Um, And I just couldn't land on what it was that I wanted to do. I was also making jewelry on the side, which, you know, [00:09:00] is very challenging to try to make a paycheck off of your art, unless you have the opportunity to fully devote yourself to it, which I just didn't, you know?

So, you know, the pandemic hit, and I think that was sort of like a coming to whoever you pray to moment for everybody. And, you know, now is your opportunity. to really contemplate like what's next. So initially I started going to grad school for nutrition and I thought that I was going to be a nutritionist.

And then that quickly, panned into me being extremely bored with that. And I realized that, you know, what I needed, what I was really desperate for was something that was more challenging. and peaked my interest every day. And obviously this industry, there are no two days that are alike. So actually a mutual friend of Vanessa and I's, he and I had been having a conversation and he said, you know, I think you should speak to this psychic that I spoke to.

And so I 100 [00:10:00] percent am a person that lives in the gray. I don't believe in the black and white. I believe in being open to anything. So I said, okay, you know what? I'm just going to give it a go.

Dan: Hold on. Before you get into what she says, you got to set the stage. Where is she?

What's her name if you feel

comfortable sharing? And like, are you walking into crystals and rainbows and

Erika: No, she's located. No, she's located in Atlanta, Georgia. So it was a phone conversation. Her name is Boo, right? Her name is Boo. She is such a lovely human being. and you know, one of the reasons I think that I was also interested in speaking to her is our mutual friend said as I've seen my life unfold, Everything that she said to me keeps unfolding.

And so when I spoke to her, you know, I get on the phone with her and, and I'm just open to hear, and that's my first question. What am I supposed to be doing? Cause I know I'm not supposed to be doing this. And I just did this [00:11:00] whole, you know, crash course for three months in nutrition, where I was studying 12 hours a day while at the time, same time.

Working, still working, and I'm a single parent, so, and parenting, and so she was like, no, that's not for you. But what I do think is for you is interior design. And my initial reaction was No, no, no, I don't know about that. I've never, that's never been something that's ever crossed my mind. You're supposed to tell me that I'm going to go make jewelry because that's what I want to do.

She doesn't, you know, that, that's great. You know, I understand that, but I really do think. That interior design is, is the thing that's going to be for you. And I said, I wouldn't even know how to start this. Do I like, you know, do you go back to school? Like where do you even begin? I said, I'm just, I feel so apathetic right now.

And she goes, well, that's okay. Rest now, because in two months, your life is entirely going to [00:12:00] change. And so I get off the phone and I'm like completely dejected because that's not what I wanted to hear. And. I mean, it actually took me a few weeks to even call Vanessa to say, what do I do now? And Vanessa is like, she's like,

I'm drowning.

vanessa: I was, really not the right person to call. Honestly,

Erika: At the time, I think at the time, right? Like

at that particular moment in your

life, it was

maybe not.

vanessa: Yeah, my reaction was very bad. Um, I was like, this is crazy. You're crazy. Um, you can't base your life on a psychic. First of all, I'm not living in the gray. I am very black and white. I'm a total nonbeliever in all things almost.

Right. And I'm like, this is ridiculous. You can't do this. You need to think rationally. What are you talking about? And, you know, also at the time I was, the creative director at Mike Sumi's studio, Sumi Design Works, which, um, was still a startup, right. [00:13:00] He was still in startup phase and we were. We had so much work and it was these really cool, powerful projects

Dan: please please tell me you called Boo.

vanessa: No, me, Oh, you didn't Have you spoken to Boo yet either?

Like, I can't mess with witchy people, man. Like I am afraid of this stuff. Like I'm, I'm trying to stay on the right side of that. but yeah, so Mike Suny had all this great work. Um, and we were, we were around the clock. I mean, we were jamming like 16 hour days and things, 10 hour days, because he was still in startup mode, he was building his staff and, um, it was intense.

And so, and I was like, sometimes working weekends and things like this. And so Erica calls me in the middle of this and she's like, I think I want to change my career. And I'm like, girl, you can't, how are you going to do this? Like you have a 20 year fashion design career. And if you merge into interior design now, you know, like I was thinking back on my career.

It's like, I had, I went to grad school for interior design and then I was an intern for like, I don't know how many, how [00:14:00] long, like it was a grueling process. And then a junior designer and then an intermediate designer, whatever that even is. And it's like. It took me a long time to get to where I was. And what I thought was like, Oh, but you're already where I am in your career.

So why would you switch tracks and be in a new career where they'll put you back where I was or where you were? I mean, you were an intern in fashion and things like that too, right? Like, why would It would be rewinding the clock 20 years and having to like fold fabric in the library or whatever.

Erika: Yeah.

vanessa: So yeah, um,

Dan: so then, how did you, how did you guys bridge that gap and get to where you are now surviving the two year, uh, gauntlet of a startup phase and, and even harder to your gauntlet as female Entrepreneurs.

Erika: well, the interesting thing, the, the sort of like wrap up to the story as to like why we started this business. So after I got off the phone with Vanessa and she's now just basically like [00:15:00] told me this is the worst idea ever. I, you know, now I'm like, what do I do? You know, because I, I've exhausted everything.

I have no idea what my next step is. I just go back to work and I'm still the same sort of, you know, robot. And Vanessa calls me a couple of weeks later and she leaves me sort of this mysterious voicemail and I call her back and she says, a gentleman has called me from San Diego. And he would like me, me personally, to design his nightclub.

Would you do this with me? And I was like, Oh my God, absolutely. This sounds super exciting. Yes. You know, I'm like, I'll be your little intern. I'll get, you know, I'll do it. And she goes, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like we're actually going to design it together. And I was like, okay, this is great. So I realized that, and you know, she, we were still gonna, you know, keep our full time jobs.

And she said, you know, keep in mind, we have to devote our nights, our weekends to this project, to see it through. Um, [00:16:00] you know, and at the same time, I'm also learning, right. So, you know, it was more of my time and I get off the phone with her and I realize that at that moment it was exactly two months.

Within one day that Boo said your life was going to completely change.

Erika: like, I had spoken to Boo probably the one day after. So within two months,

this happened and it was full steam ahead because we started the project immediately. So if that wasn't a bigger sign, I don't really know what was right.

So I, I, you know, you kind of put your hands up and go, okay, I think. Somebody's trying to tell me something. And so we worked on this really incredible project and we realized we worked really well together. And, you know, this was at a point, I think, in Vanessa's career that she was looking to, you know, establish her own studio.

vanessa: really. No, not really. No. Um, I was a creative director. Like I was like, this is what I went to grad school for. I had a 10 [00:17:00] year plan. I was going to work in three major studios in New York city and I was going to end as a creative director and be a boss. I was like, where I wanted to be. And I'd done it.

I worked at Rockwell. I worked at iCrave. I worked at Stonehill. And then I got the creative director role with Mike Sumi, which was like the honor of my professional career. And I had no interest in starting my own studio. But the weird thing is, designing for other studios, is designing to the needs and wants of the other studios.

And of course the clients, right? You're always designing to the client, right? But then there's this background thing that comes from internally, the place you're working, like they have priorities, right? And it had never occurred to me because at that point in my career, now I've been an interior designer, I don't know, like 14 years now, 14 years, so maybe like 10, I don't know, whatever, a long time.

So at that point in my career, I had never designed anything. On my own. It had always been through a studio, for studio [00:18:00] clients, and no one had ever asked me to design anything on my own. And I have some pretty wild ideas about what I think the world should look like. Erica insanely agrees with me on a lot of them.

But for the most part, I've been a bit censored throughout my career because no one else agrees with my crazy ideas. But this project almost didn't, I don't want to say it didn't matter. Of course it mattered. We wanted to do a great job, but in terms of like, This kind of like self censorship that I've learned to adapt to in my career in the New York studios, I didn't have to do that.

I was like, I think this whole wall should be hot pink and let's make the ceiling gold and why don't we put drippy diamonds on everything? And there's nobody in between me and the client. And, you know, Erica working with me to say, that's ridiculous. You can't do that. Like I own the studio or I'm your director or I'm your senior designer or whatever it is.

No, there was no editor [00:19:00] and it was wild. We did crazy, crazy stuff in this club and it all came out of our heads. And the client, our client was awesome because he was like, I love it. I agree. Let's do more of this. Um, which is great. And it, it turns out that I think that I've always had this aesthetic, like that became addictive, right?

Like, cause I've always had this aesthetic that like, I've tempered for the hospitality design studios that I've worked for, which is not to say anything against them. Like they're all great. You know, like they've all been totally wonderful to me. My career was incredible is I guess.

Still is, but my career in the studios in New York has been incredible. Everybody's been wonderful and very respectful. But the fact of the matter is like when you're designing a hotel, it's, you know, somebody's 25 million and this thing has to have return on investment and it has to like suit a series of needs.

And, um, there's. A number of people in between that equation, making sure that works. But when you run the [00:20:00] studio, you can kind of make those decisions on your own. And I, it turns out like I'm much riskier taking designer as working on my own, as I'd ever been in a studio, which is awesome. And Erica does not care because she's come from a whole other industry.

So she's like, yo, I think fire is a great idea here. Like, let's

do that.

Yeah, so, um, it's kind of a lot of fun because, so that became addictive. And then one day she called me on the phone and said, Hey, I have to tell you something. This was maybe we're like three months into this nightclub design project, which if you know anything about nightclub design projects, this is kind of the end.

Right.

She calls me on the phone and she's like, Hey, um, I want to tell you, I just quit my job. And I was like, girl, what's your new job? And she was like, oh, I'm designing this nightclub with you. And I was like, no, no, that's not how this works. It's going to be done soon. What are you going to do next? And she was like, we'll get another nightclub.

And I was like, wait, do you think we can do that? Like I assumed this would only be once in my lifetime that some client would say, yes, [00:21:00] put gold drippy chains, fire mania everywhere. And we have no problem with that and we'll pay you to do it. But Erica thought we could do it again. And so I went crazy and quit my job.

Dan: again, like that's bold in so many different ways of just doing the nightclub. Um, Erica, you quitting your job and just say, nope, we're doing this together. We're going to find another one. And I heard, I don't remember if it was Vanessa or Erica that said that you agreed on, but A lot of the things together, whether it's design choices or starting a business choices. So much of a successful partnership comes from what happens when you don't agree on the thing. So like if you're 80 percent agreeing on stuff, the real magic and how you manage and break through those 20 percent of disagreements, on design choices to business, to just running a business, If you make a spectrum, like a, from black to white or gray [00:22:00] or fire, orange to red, how, as, as nascent partners, or what framework do you have to dive into those differences to, you know, keep, keep the machine going and making it past the death gate of, for when most businesses start?

Erika: think we both came into owning a business on the same level, right? So really, it wasn't about our differences. It was about us learning together, right? We had to take the ups and downs of the things that were coming at us, the things that we could not anticipate and almost hold each other's hand and go, right, we'll figure it out together, right?

We've kind of like walked down every road together. Design, we are almost Like 99 percent on the same level with everything. And we both feed into each other's crazy. She has an idea. I have an idea. We, and we keep topping [00:23:00] our ideas together and there's so many times where we know exactly what the other person is going to choose out of something.

You know, you have vendors come all the time and they're showing you, you know, anything from wall covering to fabric to finishes, and we are always usually picking. Almost the exact same things, right? So we really do walk a path that way together and we've never had a fight. We just are always trying to figure it out together.

I think, you know, we are also going at such a fast pace that we really don't have time for a disagreement. It's just, you know, Okay. This happened, let's figure out how we can pivot, move on. Well, you know, what, what needs to be done, right? Because at the end of the day, we're still running a business that we intend to be incredibly successful and with longevity, right?

So we really haven't run into an issue where, you know, she's in one corner and I'm in another corner and [00:24:00] we can't come to some agreement together.

Dan: Yes,

vanessa: think I know why. I think the reason we can solve our disagreements well is because we're both really, um, delicate around each other's. Because I think we both grew up in kind of like crazy parent households, and it's like, we're both the kids from the crazy parent household where you're like, Like my family is a bunch of artists.

Everybody was raving lunatic and my sister's a standup comedian and they're all like just doing a show all the time and everything's so passionate. So, but yeah, we both grew up in these kind of like crazy, Erica had a similar thing. Like. You know, creatives and like wild family life. And when you're, um, like I was the youngest in my situation by many years, I was 10 years, 10 years younger than everybody else around me, the next oldest person.

And so I was always the person that had to kind of like tiptoe and figure out a way to not like [00:25:00] upset the balance. In order to get what I needed to get and get through it, because everybody was nuts. And I think Erica, your upbringing was very similar. And so that forms a personality type. That's like really good at solving disputes.

I think, I mean, maybe not really good, but like, we've got a way of doing it and it's a similar way. And it's like about being respectful of the other person's. thing, whatever it might be and like walking into it delicately rather than bowling over and saying like, no, no, this is it. Actually I do do that sometimes.

I'm, I'm an Aries. but you know, only on dumb stuff, like on the serious stuff. Yeah. Like we, we have to kind of like debate club it ish a little bit. Okay, here's what I think, here's what you think, here's what I think, here's what you think, and like, this, that, and yeah, you know what I mean,

Erika: I mean, we're a support system to one another, right? We're in a partnership. So at the end of the [00:26:00] day, you can't be a raving lunatic screaming at each other about something. You just have to come to the table and have some level of compromise and discussion, right? So, you know, like we are here to support one another and we're here to support our business.

and the people who work for us. and for me, I'm just like, I don't need to be argumentative. I can have a conversation like an adult about something and say, well, I don't think that's the best way to do it, but like, let's hear your side. And how can we, you know, come to the same side?

So, you know, we've been really successful in, to Vanessa's point, the reverence we have for one another

Dan: let's, go back. So how long, when did you start the company?

two years

Okay. So let's go back two years and two months ago to when you first talked to Boo in Atlanta. She's in Atlanta, right? You said Atlanta. Okay. So let's pretend it's two years, two months ago. And let's also pretend that it [00:27:00] wasn't just Erica, but it was also Vanessa on the phone with Boo and Boo said, you're going to start this business and you're going to be an interior design.

You're going to start an interior design company. And let's say you did it. You just went full hook, line and sinker and started the next day. What would you do? What would you have done differently?

vanessa: That's a good question. Um, I think like number one would be two factor authentication on our email accounts. Um, we've been robbed by hackers about six times now. So dear people of the world, two factor authentication on your email account. Um, it's really crazy what, is going on in the digital world right now.

And everything we do is digital, right? It's like, we rely heavily on email and the, um, Microsoft calendar. And, you know, like we're sending emails with the word invoice in the subject line. Like, I don't think I would ever do that again, if, if I could choose. Um, yeah, like digital [00:28:00] security cannot be understated.

but I don't know. That's, that's just one small thing. Um, I think maybe the bigger thing would be to kind of think through, and we've now done it. Um, and we've basically like paid for ourselves to do it. And we've kind of learned all the things in the hard way. but it would have been nice in the beginning to think about where does money come from?

And, um, how do we ensure that it's going to show up?

Dan: The federal, the federal

vanessa: for example,

Dan: it. That's all it,

vanessa: Yeah. Yeah, Oh, turns out there's, there's a few steps in between. so yeah, Fed prints it, and then people borrow it, and then they build hotels with it, and as the, you know, a consultant to the process of building a hotel or building a nightclub, um, We are beholden to those long terms and the lender and the borrower and many, many [00:29:00] steps.

And so all of that comes with a big, long timeline that you wouldn't expect. Right? So the one thing that has really been the most surprising is like, okay, we got a job. Yay. We got this job. Like, let's do this thing right now. And. Because the money from the job is coming, but the money from the job doesn't come immediately.

It's like nine months, I mean, 90 days later or 60 days later, right? So cashflow is a crazy thing. And I wish we'd understood more about it. And I wish, I mean, but it's fine. We've learned. but if we could do it again, like, Think on who is our ideal client because we've spent a lot. I, I think I did some math on it recently.

It's, it's gotten to the point where it's costing us something like 20 grand for every client we've landed. Um, like in reality, in having paid for all the marketing and like lunches and meetings and airplanes to meet all of the folks that we've met versus who's hired us. And so what we were doing in the beginning was spreading a very wide net.

We [00:30:00] hadn't, and this is, I mean, I think this is probably what you learned in like Business Development 101 or something. Um, which neither of us

Dan: Well,

will, I will say

at the start of any business, there's a tremendous investment in time and customer, customer acquisition costs to land that first customer, so to speak. And as much, whether you're good at business or have an MBA or not, like. Oftentimes from my experience, you start a business with one idea and it just, and especially in that first year or two, you've got to really keep adapting and changing until you find it.

Cause you know, it's, it's like, um, you know, it's like you're William Tell trying to shoot that arrow and land it in that apple. And you know, you don't want to hit the kid in the face, uh, on the way. If I were to switch over to Erica, Like, if you could go back two years and two months ago, um, to that boo and you started it the next day, what would you change or do [00:31:00] differently?

Erika: I mean, in agreeance with Vanessa, I think better planning, right? We sort of Took the leap. We jumped, we're still falling. It's a super fun fall. I mean, I love it. I think it's really exciting. At first there was a lot like I had so much anxiety about it. And I think that yes, I would have. I'm a research person, and this is one of the interesting things I just didn't.

Like, what do you do when you start a business? Like, all I knew is like, you have to open up an LLC and you have to like legitimize. And I was like, I can do all this, like, let's get this paperwork going, you know, but really, truly understanding properly how to develop a business. Right. And to Vanessa's point, how to keep the money flowing in and not just keeping the money flowing in, what to do with it.

The smartest thing that we did for our business was we hired a fractional CFO. I mean, who could take those numbers and say, you can spend the money on [00:32:00] this. You can spend the money on this. You can't spend the money on this. Because we were just spending the money and we were like, well, this is, this is fine.

Cause you know, more money is going to come in. You know, and I think that there was a lot of things that we didn't anticipate, right? There, there are so many licenses you have to get to practice in certain states that all cost money. There is insurance that costs money. You know, there's so many things.

There's so many elements. And I don't think that we had really taken that into consideration. So I think I would have done a hard study on how does this even begin?

Dan: also push back on you there. Like, I, I appreciate all of that, but at the same time, you're bringing in these, Fresh perspectives and rookie smarts and you know, it's passion is like pushing you to solve everything. But, but so to everyone, listening, who's debating, yeah, it's important to think about all that stuff, but I wouldn't, I also wouldn't [00:33:00] let that be such a roadblock to cause.

You know, if it was three years into the future before you did it, like, that's a lot of life and a lot of missed opportunity, that you could have missed, right? It's, uh, you're, you're in a way,

you're building the airplane as it's taking off, right?

Erika: Yeah. I mean, and that's, we had to fall on our faces a lot, right? We had to make mistakes to learn to not do it again. So, you know, when you think back and you said, you know, it's like parenting, people want to read 1 million books about having a baby and how to do it. And, There's no right way to do it.

Like I didn't read anything. I was like, this baby's going to come out and I'm going to figure it out. We're going to wing it here. You know what I mean? And I think, you know, thus far he's 10. He's made it to 10. He's super successful. You know, he loves reading and doing math, like score, you know, I, you know, that is a success in my mind.

Right? So I think it was kind of the same thing. It's like, yes, we could [00:34:00] have read all the books and I could have done more research and I could have looked more into it, but would then we had made these mistakes that really will not, we're like, well, we're never going to do

Dan: Yeah.

Erika: know, you've really like, you have to fall on

Dan: I I also,

I, I think, um,

Erika: Yeah,

Dan: this saying that I should have a sign up over my desk because I get stuck sometimes. As an entrepreneur or husband or dad with trying to come up with the perfect solution. Right. And often I find that perfect is the enemy of just good. Right. And it's, it becomes a huge roadblock.

Um, and as you're talking about the falling, it reminds me of, uh, I don't, was it Crazy Heart with Jeff Bridges? Was that like the country Western thing? But he had this song, it's like Fallin and Flyin and the lyric is, um, it's funny how fallen feels like flying for a little while.

vanessa: yeah.

Dan: that,

vanessa: Oh my God. Dan Ryan, what are you saying? No, we're [00:35:00] not going

Dan: no, but you, the point, No, the

the,

the, point is you wouldn't have taken that first step if you didn't have that feeling of flight. Right. And so much about life and business and just everything is, um, fighting entropy and just taking that next

step and find,

and you have the vision and the plan, or do you have the vision?

Maybe you don't have the plan, but you have the passion forge a path in that direction I don't know. I also saw a t shirt once that really stuck with me as well. I love getting all my philosophy from t shirts where it's failure is just unfinished learning, right? So

it's, how do we, have the mindset to hit these roadblocks and speed bumps, come close to hitting the ground or hitting the ground and, you know, take that as an opportunity or as an expensive learning or as like your PhD and what's next, you know?

So, okay. So looking back, I appreciate that because it, [00:36:00] is scary. And sometimes also it's not good to know how scary it is, right? Cause that would just discourage all of

us from, from, trying

and starting. And to me, starting a business and, um, being an entrepreneur is like the ultimate form of creativity as well, because it's like, you're, there's no path, you're creating a path and you're finding the people to help get to the next step.

And then the other thing is, is once you get to the top of the hill, You're never at the top of the hill. So going back to Vanessa, you saying, Oh, you know, you wanted to work at three firms and be a creative director. There's always the next hill there's. And then you, and then now you have this company.

And you're doing well, like there's always the next hill. So, and then I, so I'll ask you, um, you know, as you look forward, what's, what's that next hill? What's exciting you most about what you're, what you're seeing out there?

vanessa: I'm glad you asked, um, because now we do have a plan, you know, we went into this with no plan and now we've got a rock solid plan. [00:37:00] Um, so the goal is to, work on really special projects. like, for example, there's a project right now who, I'm just stalking after, um, there's some folks who have figured out how to build a hotel in low earth orbit.

Um, so you have to take a space shuttle to go and stay in this hotel. And I am convinced that we must be involved in the design of this project. I mean, it's just insane and amazing and crazy. And so that's a big goal. Um, we really, really, really, um, Want to work on the Luxor

Dan: it needs

a lot of

help.

Erika: Mm-Hmm.

Dan: It

vanessa: good though, right? It's so, it's so good. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so we're pursuing lots of work in Las Vegas, um, because of things like that, there

Dan: scared of fire.

vanessa: And

they're not scared of fire. Yeah. And so we're pursuing work in low earth orbit. Um, hopefully in outer space, eventually when we get there, [00:38:00] um, Mars would be great.

Uh, so Asia would be fantastic. We're really actively trying to pursue some work in Asia because the appetite in, um, cities like Shanghai for crazy spectacular design is, you know, So much greater than, um, a lot of what we get to see in the U S. I think that, um, we've got, you know, places here, there's pockets in this country where they really are interested in wild design nightclubs are for us a great, um, niche because nightclubs always have to have that kind of like wow factor or that all moment.

So I think that the thing in the short run, um, in the next, you know, five, 10 years is to find these kinds of very special projects. And then on the sideline, Erica and I, I don't know if you know this about interior design. I'm sure you

do. don't,

Dan: I bet you I don't,

vanessa: No, you do. No, but so when we design, um, for example, a hotel, um, typically we design somewhere between two [00:39:00] and 300 pieces of custom furniture specifically to that hotel, um, that are only used one time.

That design is, suits the concept to the hotel. Same deal, um, restaurants and nightclubs. It's not the volume isn't as great, um, but we design lots and lots of custom furniture and that's really the. The main trick of the trade here in hospitality design is like we do architectural like interior architecture and that kind of work and palettes and finishes and, um, changes to interior architecture, but our real thing is designing tons and tons of furniture.

And it's always It's been a challenge to me to think that that intellectual property comes and goes, right? It's like, we just keep producing. And, I think there's lots of designers out there that, you know, they figure out their thing, right? And they become very well known for it. And can, um, retailize it?

Um, there's a word there, but I don't know it. and so that's what we're working on now, because [00:40:00] we designed this crazy furniture for all of these projects. Um, for instance, we're working on the Cosmopolitan in Las Vegas and designed this incredible furniture for this project. that we want to keep using, right?

And so it's stuff that we designed. And, um, so now we're figuring out how to get it made in a small scale.

And so like, you know, you, yeah, like you could have it in your dining room, um, dining room chairs from our crazy heads and our wild projects, or, um, you know, like little coffee tables and things like that.

So. Um, we're developing a furniture line and that's the, uh, like end goal of this company. I, I think would be to become half product, half project sort of thing, because the projects are, it, in my estimation, and I'm, I could be totally wrong about this. I have no idea, but what I think over the last 14 years of doing project based work is that.

It can get to the point [00:41:00] where if you're running a studio large enough to support the projects that you're taking without anything but project feed based work, you can have to take projects that you don't, you're not necessarily right for, in order to keep the lights on and keep the wheels churning.

And so what we want to try to do is figure a way to offer that. Take the projects that we're right for, um, like build this company so that we, it works to just take the work that we're intended for and that's intended for us and then have another sideline hustle where there's money coming in the door and we don't have to say like, okay, let's take this project that isn't necessarily, we're not the best pick for, and we wouldn't be the best choice for the owner in order to keep our lights on.

We don't want to get to that. Yeah. If we can avoid it. And at the moment we can just make wishes because we're small enough. Um, and our overhead is low enough. So maybe we can turn our wish

into reality.

Dan: And Erica, how about you?

Erika: I mean, I think Vanessa nailed [00:42:00] it, right, because we, you know, didn't have a plan at first and we sat down and really, seriously thought about it when we started getting more clients. And this became, you know, not just sort of a capricious minute where we decided to form a company. Well, where do we see this business in ourselves?

And for me, I've always been a maker. I like using my hands. I like working with my hands. And so I think for us, a natural pivot to furniture is a really interesting thing. Like. I can sit there and take clay and make a little thing out of clay and it's really fun to then say, okay, well, what do we think about this thing and how can we make it different?

And, you know, a lot of this job is really super creative, but you're also sitting at your computer for a solid amount of the day. You know, emails are a lot of your entire life. Creating decks are a lot [00:43:00] of your entire life. But getting to do something tangible, you know, we just recently got the opportunity, to go see some of our pieces at a factory level.

And that's really awesome, you know, is to get out there and see things that are being built. off of the things that came out of our heads. And so I like this idea of having this opportunity to also, you know, have all of this design work happening, you know, to Vanessa's point within the projects that we really feel truly right for and also being able to make things, you know, it's like being able to make stuff that we can put our names on because, you know, it gets put into a project.

And everybody just knows the project. No one is maybe necessarily taking the pieces that are within the project into consideration. And we [00:44:00] also feel that creating a line that's also accessible, right? We're not looking to create pieces that are so inaccessible and so inexpensive that somebody, you know, who wants to purchase a special piece for their home.

Dan: Has to take out a mortgage.

Erika: Right. Exactly. Right. So, you know, that's also our goal in being able to create pieces that your normal everyday people can purchase, right? Like we know all the go to companies for furniture. They're dominating market, right? And so we want a piece of that market. We want to also get in there. And. We want to make something that's really interesting as well.

That's not going to cost you an arm and a leg.

Dan: Now, if, if you, so, for the success that you've had since starting and where you are now and what you've learned and are continuing to learn, if there were, if there was a listener. Out there and there are a lot of them, but if they were, if, [00:45:00] what would you say to them if they are thinking about taking that first entrepreneurial step?

Erika: Do it, do it and figure it out. I mean, I think that that's Vanessa and I want to see our business become successful. So we are incredibly dedicated to that, right? That comes out in our work. We do not allow anything that goes out the door that we don't feel has our stamp of approval. We would rather stay all night long to deliver.

Our deadline and get it right before we're going to let it out the door. But I think that it's all scary. Like it's just going to be scary, right? Like every book that you read about people who have started businesses are like, you have to love problems. You have to be somebody who is a problem solver, right?

That's every single day, every day. There's a fire, And Vanessa, what about you? What would you say to someone who's debating whether or not to [00:46:00] and fly?

vanessa: Um, it's funny. We were just talking to a friend about this. and he having this exact conversation and he was like, I want to do this and I don't know when. And I said the same thing Erica did. I was like, just do it, man. it's, it's almost like it's like investing.

It's like the earlier you can do it, the better, right? Because, um, The returns compound. Um, but I would say, uh, get the two factor authentication

on

your email.

Erika: And the fractional CFO Get the

fractional CFO

vanessa: Get a fractional CFO. Word up ULIM. We

Erika: Yeah.

vanessa: anybody who wants to meet her. She's

Dan: So what I would also, what I would also say to any entrepreneurs that are out there

thinking is the, the fractional way, like you think about, Oh, I need this many full time employees. I would just say like, do you really? And it's the, the, from a fractional sales manager to a fractional CFO, to a fractional marketing.

Expert or fractional anything. we all know what we're best at and [00:47:00] the more time we spend doing things that we are not good at or do not enjoy, it's harder on the

business. Um, and to build, be able to build a fractional team, especially in the early stages, um, and even if you have a company that's already up and running, bringing them in for just an outside opinion for an hourly rate and not a salary, um, and benefits and everything else, It's a great way to be scrappy.

And that market has just grown exponentially in my opinion, over the past few years from something as anonymous as Fiverr or Upwork to the CFO you mentioned, um, or,

and many, many more there, you know, there, there are people out there. I met a woman at independent lodging Congress and she runs a fractional CFO company.

So she just like has a whole, a whole catalog of CFOs in all different parts and she'll point and click them into different areas. So just know that if there's a challenge and you don't have the right person, you can find the right person [00:48:00] even for a little bit to help you figure it out.

vanessa: Yeah, I think it's interesting you brought that up because I always assumed that interior design, interior design is really labor heavy, especially in hospitality. Like this is a laborious thing because our projects can last two, three, four years. So ideally you want to keep your team. Two, three, four years, because you want your team to follow your client through the, uh, full extent of the project.

And for that reason, interestingly, I think our industry is one of the last to sort of get this freelance culture. Like my husband, for instance, is, um, an art director for television design, right? So he designs graphics on television and they've always been freelancers. Like his. Um, colleagues and he have never, they don't stay in studios.

They go to a studio for two months, work on a project, go to another studio for two months. whereas in my industry, in interior design for us, it's always been, you have to have a job because our projects are so long, but [00:49:00] I think you're right about this, Dan, like we've now figured out how to even do this kind of work.

Interior design, long term project work with. Freelancers, like on a freelance basis, our very first major project in the studio. we couldn't have pulled off without, um, three of my best friends who I've been working with in this industry for years, who were like, yeah, we'll help you on exactly how Erica and I did our first project, we'll help you on nights and weekends and just pay us hourly.

And, um, You know, we had a design director that's like nights and weekends person, um, working part time, which is an incredible thing because that's a really expensive salary in a studio. That's like 150, 000 person. So for us to have in year one hired 150, 000 person, I mean, that would be it. Like, it's like, we don't get any other people.

We don't get a studio, we don't get computers. So yeah, you're right about that. The freelance market has become really robust and, [00:50:00] um, has really

allowed this kind of thing.

Dan: first of all, it's just been wonderful to have you on and, oh, you know, the other thing I'm going to say and share, um, And you guys did this with me. It's like, reach out. Hey, I have questions. I, can you introduce me to this person? Can you help with here? And what I will say, and I was really, um, taken by you guys, um, because of all those companies and that start so many of them. Do not ask for help. They think they got it.

And the fact that you're able to reach out and ask and be vulnerable. I think that that is like an incredible gift that the two of you have that I think will really serve you. Very well as your company continues to soar. So I want to say thank you for, for reminding me about that. And thank you. And I really hope that other people who are thinking about taking that first step, like, listen to this.

And, and, and if that's one [00:51:00] thing you take away, just know that these guys. Have done that and continue to do that. And it's okay to not know what you're doing. It's okay to figure it out while you're building the airplane. It's okay to be building the airplane while you're taking off. All these things are okay, but just know like they're reaching out to their friends, best friends in the industry to help them on nights and weekends.

Like. Everyone wants, once you take that step, people want to see you succeed and the more you can share about that and where you need, where you need help and like help us get to this North Star of where we want to go, like, it really only serves you. So don't be, don't be embarrassed. Don't be shy. Ask. So, Vanessa and Erica, I just want to say thank you so much for being out here, reaching out and, being you and I wish you like the most amazing success.

So thank you.

vanessa: welcome, Dan Ryan.

thank

you.

Erika: Thank you for having us on. This

Dan: Oh, it's my

vanessa: I know this is a lot of

Dan: like, again, this is why we do this every week. It's [00:52:00] because of you, you guys keep listening and downloading. And I haven't started really in earnest doing the whole social media. Push to like grow the audience cause there really hasn't been a need to.

Um, and I appreciate that so incredibly much. And you guys are all so supportive and the feedback I get from every single channel is great. So don't forget to like, and subscribe. And also, uh, we have a newsletter. I'll put it in the show notes, uh, but sign up. I force. Subscribe all of my guests. Um, everyone else is optional.

Um, so Vanessa and Erica, you will be forced subscribed. Um, but if you're not into newsletters, you can always unsubscribe. It's not that big of a deal. I just want to take the learnings that I get from guests like you and share them with everyone. There's too much good

content.

Erika: we already

Dan: Oh, you do. Oh, then oh good. Then

I already forced subscribed you when, when, when we decided to do it. Good. So good. Um, but again, the reason why I did it is because. I just get to learn so much from you. And then [00:53:00] after doing this, it'll be three years. And next month there's 160 episodes and so much learning and so rich

that we can just, that I want to share and like repurpose to help everyone out there shorten their journey.

So thank you all for listening and tuning in and like, subscribe, spread the word. I love evangelizing and having great guests on like Vanessa and Erica. Um, so thank you.

Erika: Thank you.

vanessa: Thanks, Dan.