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Hear from Shelby and Millie, both members of the GTRSB Community, both with connections to Oxford University. Recorded in May 2022.
Produced by New College, Oxford, 72 Weeks details how life can change, and indeed has changed, for people over the course of an Oxford University degree. Each episode focuses on a different theme, with guests having some form of commonality.
Daniel: Hello and welcome to the second episode of 72 Weeks. My name is Daniel and I�m the Head of Outreach and Communications at New College, which is part of the University of Oxford. Um, now this podcast is called 72 Weeks as that is the average length of an Undergraduate degree course at Oxford. And, in each episode, I will be talking to two people about how life can change, and indeed has changed, during that relatively short period of time. And, each week, the people interviewed will have a common thread, or indeed threads, that they share with the other person and this week I�m delighted to be joined by my colleague, Shelby, who is the Outreach Officer at New College and graduate of Trinity College, Oxford, and Milly who is a current Classics Undergraduate at St John�s College in Oxford. And the thing that brings them together is that both are members of the GTRSB Community. So, hello and welcome to you both.
Shelby & Milly: Hi
Daniel: Hi! So, Shelby, perhaps you can start us off. Can you explain to everybody who�s listening what GTRSB stands for.
Shelby: Sure, it�s a bit like LGBTQ. It�s sort of a better way of describing a particular set of communities. Um, yeah, so GTRSB, if we start from the top: What does the G stand for? The G is, uh, Gypsy, T is for Traveller, the R is for Roma, the S is for Showmen, the B is for Boaters so GTRSB. GTR element, so that�s Gypsy, Traveller, Roma, um, they�re normally referred to as ethnic, uh, travellers. Um, so they�re usually treated as a separate ethnicity. Um, important to point out that all these communities are separate, uh, and they may have things that link them to each other but they are separate communities but often the public treats them as one lump, um, so that�s something that does need to change because they�re all different communities. Um, but yeah, with the Gypsy community, um, they�re related to the Roma community so the Roma community have been in the UK since pretty much the medieval period so we had waves of immigration of, uh, people from that group who are Roma and then as time has gone on and particularly in the Victorian period, uh, in the UK, the word Gypsy starts to become more and more popular and the groups, uh, who are Roma start to become more and more happy with reclaiming the word Gypsy. So, on mainland Europe, Gypsy is very much a slur, uh, for anyone of Roma descent but in the UK, it has been reclaimed and there�s lots of communities that prefer the term Gypsy to describe themselves. Um, and the other group, that�s in this sort of ethnic traveller group is, uh, Traveller or Irish Traveller. These are not Roma, um, they�re separate. They normally have, um, some kind of relation back to Ireland, um, and yeah, so this group, the GTR element, uh, they�re the ethnic group. The other two communities tend to be referred to as the cultural travellers. So, less treated as an ethnicity but more of a separate culture, uh, and that�s where me and Milly come in because one of those communities is Showmen. We are Showmen and, uh, Showmen are associated with fairgrounds in the UK so we run the fairground industry. We�ve got a guild that regulates this, we�ve got a parliamentary agent, um, as well as doing sort of local regional fairs, we also do some really big events so Winter Wonderland in Hyde Park, so that�s Showmen, um, and the other group are Boaters and their lifestyle is that they travel on boats, normally barges or narrow-boats, throughout the year. I know that was a bit lengthy but hopefully that sort of makes all the differences clear.
Daniel: So, how many people in the UK currently form part of this community of GTRSB people?
Shelby: Hmm, that�s a really good question. So, estimates vary because, uh, most of these groups are usually, um, usually don�t have a great track record with education in general, uh, usually, um, rely on their oral histories so there�s not a lot of written record and so consequently when we have things like the census, uh, not a lot of, uh, participation in that and this is also relates to literacy levels as well but some good guesses that are around, so, some guesses that I�ve heard that there are around 500 000 GTR people, um, and then some guesses for Showmen are around 50 000, and similar guesses for Boaters but again it�s difficult to make an accurate prediction.
Daniel: So, Milly, can you perhaps just tell me a little bit then about your childhood growing up as part of the Showmen Community.
Milly: Around the time I was born, I was in a little Silvercross pram, outside the kiosk, muslin over the top to keep the sun off me, so I was very much on the fairground and involved still.
Shelby: I love that, the image of the Silvercross pram in front of the catering kiosk is a very typical, sort of classic image of family life as a Showman.
Milly: It really is.
Shelby: You can�t leave the baby with somebody else, the baby�s going to come to work!
Milly: Of course! As a child, I had a nice early education in Primary School. When I got to Secondary School, uh, I was diagnosed with Asperger�s Syndrome which is a type of autism. And, I kind of struggled a little bit. So, when I was around 13, my parents did make the choice to pull me out of school as is perhaps typical of Showmen and other travelling groups, and I spent that time working. So, as a child, even though we were settled, I still, you know, my parents went to the dos, we had ball in the bucket, my Nan had the kiosk. Uh, so fun family story. I was around three years old and I was minding The Striker, so if you don�t really know what that is, that�s the one where you take the big old mallet, you hit it, hit the thing, and it goes up and hits a bell. Uh, it was a prize every time, but we were trying to get some more people to come and I disappeared. And, my parents found me going and talking to a little girl�s family, to try and convince them to let her have a go. So, you know, I was there. My money-pocket was probably a bit too big for me, but very much involved. Uh, but when I got to around 13, I�d been in the kiosk for a little while since then, since I was around 11, um, and if you don�t know what a kiosk is, that�s what we call burger vans. Uh, so I was there cooking burgers, you know egg sandwiches, things like that. Um, and, I started doing that full-time, as well as going helping other people, my cousins, with their little juveniles which are kids rides and things like that, and I did that until I was around 16, uh, when I sat my GCSEs, I got very, very sub-par grades, I would say, but that was enough. So, I was able to go to Sixth Form College, and that was when I discovered Classics. Went through there, thought, hey, why not apply to Oxford? And, I did.
Daniel: Shelby, how does that story resonate with your childhood, growing up?
Shelby: Yeah, there�s a lot that�s similar, so, yeah, like you said when you�re a kid, that is just what you do. You are doing what your Mam and Dad do and after-school, that�s what you go and do. My earliest memory, we used to have a sweet stall on the local market, and my earliest memory is selling, you know, bag of sweets, 50 pence, and that�s, you know, that�s how when you�re a kid, you learn Maths and things
Milly: Exactly
Shelby: Because a Showman kid is so good at giving change, and so good at that really, those really foundations of Maths. They are so so quick, especially if you change the problem to sort of pennies and pounds, they are dead quick at it. Um, so yeah, did that from a very young age and that�s just what you do. That�s how it is. In terms of Primary School, my Mam and Dad wanted me to read and write because that wasn�t something that they�d had necessarily the opportunity to do at school. Their schooling experience had been very poor. So they were keen that me and my sister, you know, have a solid experience of Primary School to get that in. And then, as we moved into secondary school, we stayed at that school because my Mam and Dad felt that it was a very safe school. The Headteacher had met Showmen before, she was very sympathetic to that, so it felt like we had a good relationship there, um, but yeah we got took out of school to do fairs in Nottingham, and Hull, and all that because that was important to us culturally. So, you know, that was not negotiable, that wasn�t something that the school could say anything to us about. That was what was happening, whether they liked it or not.
Daniel: How is it organised then, your education, if, secondary school in particular, you�re away for long periods of time. How did you manage that and how did the school manage it, in terms of you actually being given the work to do in preparation for the exams that you had to do?
Milly: At Primary School, the school, they were understanding, and for the most part, they kind of, say �here you go�. Just make sure that you come back. Uh, one time my Mum was given a Head Teacher�s Award, uh, for getting my sister in to do her SATs. So, um, they were able to do it then. When I got into Secondary School, my Secondary School was much more used to Showman in particular, some other travelling groups. When it got to the bigger stuff, they would really stress the importance of an education, and although they never gave us any work packs to get on with, as I know many schools do nowadays, my Mum would stress that we were still getting an education, not just a cultural education, and an education in life, but as Shelby was saying, you learn your Maths through doing, handling the money. And you learn to talk to people, you learn social skills and, especially as an autistic person, skills which I could not gain through school. And it�s quite funny really, because looking back on it now, I really do value the education that I got from being a Showman because I have an education of life as well.
Shelby: I love that, I love that, yeah. The ability to talk to people, and to, you know those really soft people skills, that many people don�t get until their 30s or 40s, and not to blow our trumpets too much, but I think most Showmen have really wonderful inter-personal skills because they�ve met so many people from a young age, talked to so many people and have had to have business relationships with so many people, that they know how to negotiate, they know how to compromise, they know how to, you know, build a working relationship with somebody. Um, and as you said, actually, you know, regular attendance at school is often a really important parameter for schools, but not necessarily for me and you, because I think we are examples that show if you�re interested, and you�re passionate about the subject, you can do a lot of this in your own time, especially for Humanities, I�m sure STEM people would argue differently, but, yeah, for my school, I don�t know if work packs were an official, uh, policy that they had, but when it became clear that, OK, um, this is normally the time when Shelby leaves for a couple of weeks at a time, uh, some teachers would prepare something for me, um, which was really helpful because I would go away, do the work pack, because I really enjoyed the academic challenge of that kind of work, and I would come back and the teacher would often have over-estimated how much work they�d have got through so when I came back, I was already still ahead because the class hadn�t actually covered that content yet, um, so that was that really helpful for me to keeping up with schooling. Um, but my attendance was never fantastic.
Daniel: What sort of percentage was it then? If we talk about attendance.
Shelby: Yeah, my best year was my final year of A levels, and that year my attendance was sixty eight per cent. That was the highest it had ever been. I thought that was brilliant. My Mam thought it was outrageous that I missed out on so much cultural stuff. And the school were outraged that I�d missed so much schooling. But, you know, it clearly wasn�t necessary, and whether that�s because we�re you know, incredibly gifted people that don�t need that, I don�t know but it clearly wasn�t a prerequisite for success for either of us.
Daniel: So, at what point, did both of you think then, I�m going to apply to Oxford University. Milly, when did that first come into your head?
Milly: I didn�t actually think seriously about Oxford until the day that applications were due. Because I was umming and ahhing about it, and I was like, I�d love to but I don�t really think I�d get in, you know, not so much because I�m a Showman and they don�t like Showman there, but I did think that maybe I wasn�t good enough, it was more I was kidding myself, and I think a lot of that did come from the fact that not many people from my family had much of an education. My Dad left school when he was eleven, my Mum was a bit of a trail-blazer, because she did a year of College. One of my cousins did go to University, but I wasn�t really sure, I thought maybe I was overestimating my abilities because I didn�t have anything to compare it to. Um, but in the end, it was my sister who said, no, you�ve got to go, because my parents, as supportive as they were, they were supportive either way, so said you don�t have to apply if you don�t want to, we�d love you to, but we�re not going to force you. Uh, and my sister, blunt as she is, said no, you�re applying. That�s it. So I was like, OK, I will do. Um, so yeah, day of applications, day that they were due, October, sent it in, I was like OK, let�s hope for the best.
Daniel: And how did you land on Classics then?
Milly: I got really lucky, um, because I was a Percy Jackson kid, so I read all of those. Um, but I didn�t really know that it was a subject that you could study. Um, like I say, my first year of A levels when I was sixteen, I did English, Modern History, and Sociology. I wasn�t sure about Sociology, I needed a third option and they said �hey, why don�t you try this?� So, I said alright then and I was scrolling through and I found Classics. And I was like, hey, that seems like a bit of me. I liked that as a kid, I�d like to look into it more, so I clicked it and that was it.
Daniel: Shelby, what about you, how did you land on English Literature?
Shelby: I�d always read, I�d always read voracious amounts, uh, I think I was in Year 5 and the school had to call my Mam and Dad in, and they thought it was going to be for a behavioural issue, and it wasn�t, it was because the school didn�t have any more age-appropriate books for me, that would challenge my reading level anymore. So, they were kind of, wanting to have a chat with them to see what they could do, so I�d always read a lot. Um, and then as I got older, you know, I really enjoyed English at GCSE, I enjoyed other subjects as well but I was still a really big reader, um, and my English teacher, the two English teachers I had, were really supportive and would give me books to read, um, which was great so I always had that really strong relationship with those teachers. Um, and it was my A level English teacher who was really, you know, a big champion for me going for Oxford as well because we used to do the fair here at Oxford, the St Giles fair, um, in the September. I think the first year we came to do that I was sort of thirteen or fourteen, and me and my Dad actually looked into the famous blue gates of Trinity College and we had a conversation about it, and he said �Oh I don�t think you�d get in there, kid�. And, I was like, well you know, it�s something I�d like to think about, and I did have a think about it more and more as time went on, and I was doing really well in my A levels and my English teacher was saying it was a good choice for me, um so, my attitude was very much well, I�ll give it a go, and see what happens, and I might not go to University at all, you know, I might still, sort of, carry on with the family business which, you know, my mother would have loved. Um, she thought that was a great idea. Um, and like your Mam and Dad, they weren�t really saying one way or the other, they just wanted me to be happy. Um, so, I think my Dad was much more in love with the idea than my Mam was, my Dad was quite into the idea of having this kid at Oxford. But my Mam was like, yeah, well you know, I know this stuff, I know the fairground stuff, I know how to buy and sell things, but you can go and do more than that if you want to. So, I thought, well, I�ll give it a go and even if I finish the degree, I can still come back, you know, there�s no leaving the community, you can�t do that, you�re always a Showman. Uh, but you can always come back and do this, you know, but give yourself the opportunity to do something else. So that was a really helpful support system for me because it was very much my decision, and then with the support of my English teacher, I thought well I�ve always enjoyed reading, I�ve always enjoyed this, uh, I�ll go for English at Oxford, and so I did.
Daniel: So, in some ways, both of you are applying without having preconceptions of what Oxford was like? Would you say that�s fair?
Shelby: I would say I was actively ignorant of what Oxford was like. The only real experience I had of Oxford was doing the fair here and seeing how beautiful the city was, and thinking ooh, this would be a nice place to live. It�s only as I got more involved in the process and it got closer to sending off the application that I think I went to an access event in Liverpool somewhere, because being from North Wales that�s the closest one that they did at the time. Um, and I went there with my Dad, and that�s when they started talking about the sort of other elements of the application, and kind of looking at my Dad going ooh, this is a bit more complicated than I thought it was. But even then, didn�t really realise that it was a place that had traditionally, you know, been associated with private school kids, or posh people, or anything like that. Um which is another great thing that I think about the Showman community, so much confidence in everyone. You know, if you said to someone, oh do you think you could climb Everest? I think anyone from the Showman community would be like, yeah, give me a week, I�ll do it. Whether they would do or not is another thing, but, there�s a lot of confidence and self-belief that the community is instilled with and I think it�s a really great strength. And a lot of support as well, so, uh yeah, it never entered my head that I wouldn�t necessarily get in. It did enter my head that I might not want it after a couple of months, and I might change my mind. Um, yeah, but wasn�t bothered by any of that. It was only really when I got here that I went, ooh, hang on, this is associated with posh people. OK.
Daniel: So, you both are successful in your application and then you both end up being Undergraduates at Oxford University, um, and I know Shelby, you attracted quite a lot of press attention at the time. Looking back, did you welcome that attention of being one of the first people from the GTRSB community to study at Oxford?
Shelby: I was eighteen, and this great thing had just happened, and actually the great thing had been happening for a while, because I got my offer letter in the January, so I was only really waiting for the A level results. So when the results came in, it was almost business as usual for me and my family because, oh yeah, well these are the results we expected, so as planned, I will be going to Oxford. It was the rest of the world that had a moment of shock, we knew this was going to happen for a while. I thought the local papers would be excited, so I thought that would go on for three or four days. I didn�t realise it would go on for months. I didn�t realise the press would try and call the College to find out, you know, what number my room was and things like that. I didn�t know that that was going to happen. I think I said yes to pretty much everything I was asked, in terms of interviews and things because I felt like I had this opportunity to show, hey, our community isn�t what you think, it�s actually really cool and full of interesting people and, you know, there�s lots of great things about us and, you know, it�s actually not OK to use these slurs about us in the press and there�s actually different communities going on here and I�m from this very specific one that�s related to fairgrounds and I don�t know how to use tarot cards, and I don�t trade horses, or anything like that, you know that isn�t my thing. There�s nothing wrong with those communities, but that�s not mine. So I thought, oh, I�ll use it and I�ll try and do that. And, unfortunately, you know, I was an eighteen year old student and I realise now I was up against several large news conglomerates who had their own agenda and wanted to talk about me in a very specific way, and wanted to get very specific photos of me doing, you know, typical stereotypical activities and those photos don�t exist and I, you know, I�m not that kind of person. I was a bookish kid, always was, always will be. So uh, so yeah, I don�t think I welcomed the attention but I thought it�s my responsibility to show myself and my community, you know, and put us in a positive light. This will be a good thing for us. And, but you�ve had your own experience with the media haven�t you?
Milly: Yeah, so for the most-part, it was a very positive experience. As Shelby said, I was grateful for the opportunity to be able to do my part for Showmen, especially as a settled Showman. I was like, this is what it�s all for. I want to be able to change these misconceptions that people have about us. Um, but I didn�t realise just how many misconceptions there were and the extent of the narrative that they were pushing. So, for example, they had this idea that as someone who came from a background that was not typically associated with Oxford and the things that are typically associated with Oxford like private schools, I would have this deep loathing of things like private schools, and people who went there. So, they were really quite shocked, I think, when I said, one, a few of my cousins went to private school.
Shelby: Yes, because a lot of Showmen, if they do want their kids, if they feel like they�re travelling too much, they will put the kids in a boarding school of some kind. And that always surprises people but actually this is a really logical step.
Milly: Yeah, um, so they were really shocked at that. But also the fact that I didn�t instantly hate these people and view them as �the other�. And I think they really wanted me to, maybe in terms of story, maybe in terms of genuine belief.
Daniel: So, if we now just talk about Oxford University as a place, um, so Milly, you�re coming to the end of your first year of your degree at the moment. Um, so has Oxford University been what you were expecting it to be?
Milly: It has and it hasn�t, because I applied to an academically rigorous University. I am going to an academically rigorous University and that does very much fit what I expected. I am mingling with people from all walks of life. But for the most part, being an Oxford student, I am a student, there�s not, I�m not different in any way.
Daniel: And Shelby, what were your favourite memories, of somebody who graduated relatively recently, um, what are your favourite memories of Oxford University?
Shelby: Uh, thank you for calling it relatively recently.
Daniel: Well,yeah
Shelby: Um, when you talk about some of the best memories of this place, it was talking to people that I would never have had a chance to talk to before. And I was already someone, you know coming from a Showman background, who�d had that experience of talking to lots of people and having lots of different experiences. But even compared to that, you know, I could talk to somebody from any part of the world, and talk to somebody from any kind of different background, I mean the diversity was incredible. To me, it really was mind-blowing and it was one of the things that I really didn�t expect coming here, I thought I was just going to love the academic side of it and I was going to really get close with my sort of coursemates which, of course, I did but the friends that I made outside of my academic course and in other years, from other Colleges, it was really astounding. It was one of the best things about it, just getting to know all these different kinds of people and hearing from other people�s backgrounds. And, it was great for me because I, at first, coming into my degree felt like this ugly duckling because I�d had this kind of media attention around me. But once you talked to everyone else, it felt like everyone had this crazy story of getting to Oxford because they had this thing happen to them or they come from this kind of background. And, it is really special to come here so it did feel like I was in good company and it was a wonderful environment for me to come to after, sort of coming from a background where not everybody read books, not everybody was academically interested, to all of a sudden being surrounded by people who really were, and were really passionate about what they were studying. That was the best part of it for me.
Daniel: So, what one piece of advice would you give somebody who might be listening to this who hasn�t entertained the idea of applying to Oxford, or is thinking about it. As somebody here, right now, what one piece of advice would you give that person?
Milly: It sounds very basic and perhaps something which you will have heard a million times, but simply go for it because I was very worried that I wouldn�t be good enough to get in. No one comes to Oxford knowing anything about their subjects, really. I mean, don�t think that you need to know everything in order to come to Oxford. Simply, be passionate, read around your subject if you can, don�t stress too much, and enjoy the experience, and just go for it.
Daniel: Very sage advice, love it. And Shelby, just more broadly, how would you like to see education provision for GTRSB children improve, and what more could somewhere like Oxford University do to assist with that sort of thing?
Shelby: Yeah, that�s a great question. Um, I mean, generally the educational outcomes for travelling communities are still quite poor. Um, there�s a lot of work to be done. I was very lucky with my school, we had a great relationship. Um, a lot of the senior leadership in that school were very clued up, uh, and were very happy to accommodate and I think that�s the key. You�re not going to convince a travelling family to, all of a sudden, stop their way of life and their lifestyle because you think it�s important that they�re in school every day. That�s not going to happen. So, I think, better conversations between education providers and families are the key. We need to fix that broken relationship there. Oxford University is a really powerful institution, you know they�ve got a lot of resources. Um, I think more partnership with schools to help with things like that, doing more access and outreach, which I know we already do but there�s more to be done. More specified access and outreach, we�ve got things that w can do. We are starting to do some of those things but my goodness, we need so many more of them.
Daniel: And, finally, as you know an average Oxford degree takes up just 72 weeks of your life. What one piece of advice would you offer to Milly, to help her get the most out of her time at this University?
Shelby: Well, I think my initial reaction is she�s already doing much better than me, um you know, she�s doing brilliantly academically so she needs no tips from me. But I think one of the things that I felt, certainly towards the end of my degree, was maybe I was starting to second-guess myself. One of the things that I started thinking was maybe I�d taken a place from someone else who was more deserving and that is not a helpful thought at all. It�s completely imposter syndrome, um, so yeah, you are absolutely deserving of your place here. You�re already grabbing it with both hands, um, so the only other thing I would add is don�t forget to, sort of, maintain your hobbies and interests and grow them further. Um, because what some people do here is they go �oh my goodness, I�ve got to work really really hard to earn my place, and of course there is a workload here, it�s Oxford, but don�t do that. Keep up hobbies, keep up interests, grow your friendship group, um and really do invest time in the things that you enjoy. That would be my piece of advice, but again, I don�t think you need it. I think you�ve got it all sussed out.
Milly: Thank you
Daniel: And, a big thank you to Shelby and to Milly for talking to me this morning on 72 weeks. So, thank you very much to both of you, and we will see you again soon.