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Church is messy podcast recorded at Autumn Ridge Church in Rochester, MN
Church Is Messy, 09-09-2026 Ep150
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Svea: Well, good morning, Rick. We are back with Church is Messy, and another great chance to talk about a really good message.
Rick: Hey, we're almost to the end of this series. We've only got one more week to go.
Svea: To the end- To
Rick: the- ...
Svea: of the end ...
Rick: the end of the end?
Svea: Yeah, that sounds really ominous. How
Rick: are you supposed to say the end when there's a question mark?
Svea: The end?
Rick: Yeah. You gotta go a little bit higher register on the end.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: As you say it, as your voice is fading out.
Svea: Yeah. The, the question of- Yeah ... is this the
Rick: end? Is this the end? What's at the end? What comes after the end? All that kind of stuff, yeah.
Svea: I, you know, when you, we did the run-through on Thursday-
Rick: Mm-hmm
Svea: uh, one of my first reactions was I liked this message, but I have so many more questions, and there's so much more I would love to hear you talk about. I wish this series was like a 12 to 15-week-long series, and your reaction was not what I expected. I- ... I thought you'd be like, "Yeah, I, I, I want more and more of this, too."
You were like, "This is a hard series." It's,
Rick: it's technical. Yeah. It's technical, For me, it feels like it requires quite a bit of precision- ... and just carefulness. Sure. And yeah, that, that c- that takes time, and it takes, it takes mental energy, and it's not that people don't deserve it.
I don't know that I could do another five- ... uh, fifth, sixth, seventh week of, uh, of this series. At least not right now.
Svea: Well, it's been a jam-packed series-
Rick: Okay ...
Svea: with touching on different views of end times, and now we're- Oh, sure ... moving into-
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: heaven.
Rick: Yeah, for people who were wanting like, "Hey, help me decode some of the imagery, uh, from Revelation," this is...
that's not what this, this series- Not the goal of this ... could, could accomplish Yeah ... and not even, not even the goal. But there's a great... I think there's a book that's incredibly helpful, easily accessible, written by a New Testament scholar named Scott McKnight, Revelation for the Rest of Us.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: And he-
Svea: That's a fantastic book
Rick: and he grew up in the height of dispensationalism, and so the, what is the movie? Thief in the Night, and, like, kind of all the scary stuff that was, that seemed to be emphasized in church culture, he grew up in that. And so he can talk about it. He writes about it as a citizen, right? Not as a tourist, but as someone who's lived there and, and, and gone through it, and that doesn't represent his view now.
He has a, he has a different view. And so if you just wanna kinda eat up a little bit more and get some more clarity about a different view, I would encourage you to read Revelation for the Rest of Us by Scott McKnight.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
It's really helpful. It satisfies some of the revelation curiosity, uh, without, uh, getting lost in the weeds. For sure. And we do have a few copies of that in the bookstore. And there's a lot of weeds.
Rick: There are a lot of weeds out there. And they're tall. That's true. And you could get lost in them, for sure,
Svea: yeah.
It's true. You, you started off the, the sermon asking people what's something you're looking forward to. Mm-hmm. I'm just curious, before we talk about deep content-
Rick: Mm-hmm ...
Svea: what are you looking forward to right now?
Rick: Well, my wife's been gone for about a week. She flies back tonight, so I'm ready. I'm looking forward to, to her return.
Svea: That's a good thing.
Rick: I am... I'm really looking forward to deer season. I don't think people are surprised by- Surprise
Svea: Counting down the days ... counting down the days Week
Rick: and a
Svea: half
Rick: left. Yeah, we got two, basically, yeah, two Saturdays, and then, then it starts. Really, yeah, and I've got a, I've got a hunting trip coming up to the Black Hills, uh, later in the fall, and I'm really, really, really looking forward to just peace and quiet for a week- Mm
in the, uh, c- in the backcountry. That's gonna be pretty nice.
Svea: Mm. Yeah, that sounds lovely.
Good thanks.
Rick: How about you? What are you looking forward to?
Svea: So the end of this month is my 20th wedding anniversary to Steve. Heyo. And we're gonna go back to Banff, where we went on our honeymoon, and relive our honeymoon- Whoa
20 years later.
Rick: Whoa. Banff.
Svea: So yeah,
Rick: so I- I've never been there. That's on the bucket list.
Svea: It is so beautiful.
Rick: Yeah?
Svea: Yeah, I'm sure you would love it- I bet ... as a fellow outdoorsy person.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: But, uh- Wow, good for you guys ... we just have so much to celebrate. We've lived so much life in- Mm-hmm ... 20 years, and so just excited to- Wow, that's
Rick: fantastic
Svea: to reflect and be in a beautiful place together and, uh, just enjoy some days of rest.
Rick: Okay. All right.
Svea: But are you like me? Because I know, like especially on a trip, like Steve and I talk about vacation grief, where you get to the end of the trip, something you have been looking forward to for so long, and you know it's coming to an end.
Mm-hmm. And there's just this period of sadness and grief that it's over, and that kind of feels like an... proving the point you were making by asking this question, that when we put all of our hope into something that we're looking forward to- Mm-hmm ... that can't sustain the, the weight- 'Cause- ... of that hope
Rick: 'cause it's all temporary. And e- everything's incomplete, yeah. Mm-hmm. I get it. No, I, I know exactly what you're, you're talking about. I know when I'm, when it's... It's like when I change directions. In my, it's like my, there's something, when I feel like I've turned around and I'm now facing home, there's a total gear switch that happens, and I start gearing up for work, and, and I feel that happen.
I'm like, "Oh, I guess it's over," and I'm back, you know? Yeah. And yeah, and I love that kind of carefree, restful, man, wasn't this joyful kind of break.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: And, you know, in part, that's what heaven will be. Heaven w- won't be free from work. We'll have, like, meaningful, life-giving responsibilities, uh, in heaven.
But there is this sense of rest that I think a lot of us long for, that ultimately is not gonna be fulfilled anything in this life. Uh, we got to hear a great talk not too long ago, um, by a, a guy named-
Svea: Joel Lawrence ...
Rick: Joel Lawrence. Thank you. You saved me there. I was like, "What?" I, it's a guy na- He has a name.
Uh-huh. Joel Lawrence, and I really like listening to this guy talk. I think he's sneaky insightful. Yeah. Um, super g- Brilliant guy. Yeah. He, you know, you think he's gonna be dull, and he's not at all. Not at all. Maybe one day we'll get him c- to come to, to Autumn Ridge- That'd be great ... and speak. But he was talking about the Sabbath, and, and just like a s- almost...
this is not his terminology, but, like, a Sabbath worldview Mm-hmm ... a Sabbath view of all of life, and he was referencing how Paul wrote in Romans about, uh, w- wanting to enter that Sabbath rest with God. And so I think, I think heaven speak- for those of us who feel restless, who feel like we can never hit that finish line, like it's a false summit or, or, or moving goalposts all the time, there is a rest that we were made for that ultimately will not be experienced until we are present with Christ.
Mm. So yeah, I look forward to that.
Svea: So talk a little bit more about that, because I think for many of us, we have just these literally ethereal ideas- Mm-hmm ... about what heaven might be like. Mm. And the idea of rest and all of that is, is certainly appealing. Mm-hmm. But for anyone that says, "Yeah, I believe in heaven, but I either don't know what I believe about it, or what I do think I know maybe doesn't feel like it will satisfy for-
Rick: Yeah
Svea: for that long- Yeah ... let alone eternity," how can we create a healthy longing for heaven and a healthy longing for something that we might not fully be able to understand in a way that doesn't make it feel like we're just trying to live in the land of make believe?
Rick: Yeah. That's a great question, and I don't wanna answer it right now.
Svea: Okay.
Rick: Because I'm afraid that I don't wanna-
Svea: That's not satisfying at all.
Rick: You know? I don't wanna steal my own thunder. I, I wanna s- I wanna save some stuff- That's what
Svea: you're talking about this weekend ... for
Rick: this ... Yeah. Okay. I, I wanna save some stuff, uh, for, for this weekend. Okay. You're gonna go to Banff.
Svea: Uh-huh.
Rick: And it's gonna be amazing. But would it be as amazing if you were there without Steve?
Svea: No. No. It's, it's ... Okay, I see where you're going with this, and it, it's actually, this is really good. You're right. It would still be beautiful there. But it wouldn't have any of the meaning.
Mm-hmm. And to be there without him would actually be almost kind of grief-filled.
Rick: Sure. Sure. You know, Heather and I we've had some wonderful trips together, but I don't know, in the past, you know, five or six years, it feels like we've taken a lot of trips separately. You know, I've got to go to to West Africa but never with her.
Uh, and you know, there are times I'm like, "Oh, this is so great. I love it. I wish my wife were here." Mm. Something feels incomplete because it's missing a person. It has nothing to do with the place. It has everything to do with a person that's missing. And so I just wa- I realize it's a bit more
Ethereal's a great word. Maybe abstract is a great word. Uh, I just wanted to, us to slow down and focus on that Jesus is the answer, and then the place is, it's gravy. It's, it's a bonus. Mm. It's, it's, it's extra.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: But, uh, but let's just start with- What is fulfilling about it, what's great about it is who's there.
Mm. And it's Jesus. Mm. And it's, and it's being with Him, the one in whose image we were made.
Svea: Yeah. So let's sit on that for a little bit.
Rick: Okay. '
Svea: Cause on one level, that sounds so amazing to just be in the presence of Jesus. But again, I think it can be a little bit hard to envision- Mm-hmm ... how does that change things?
Rick: Hmm.
Svea: So, so if the goal of, like the Colossians passage, that was your base camp passage for this message- Yeah ... is this idea of setting our hearts- Mm-hmm ... on things above, setting our minds, you know, setting our, our affections and our I'm blanking. And our-
Rick: Attentions, Svea. At- The word you're looking for is attention.
Svea: Oh, how ironic is that? I
Rick: don't know why I'm being a hypocrite right now. You just bailed me out- ... with Joe Lawrence's name.
Svea: I should be drinking coffee rather than water right now, I guess. Yeah, if we're setting our attention and- Yeah ... our affections on Christ, how is that helping us, not just picture heaven, but, but even in the, the life now, in the way that it's building our connection with Jesus now?
Rick: Yeah. And so I'll do my best, and I probably feel like, uh, people need someone who could do a little bit better job than me at this. But I think, and I'm probably not the only person, I think that it's just so easy to become attached to things instead of Him, because b- because there is a gap between us and the physical presence there, eye to eye, face to face with Jesus, things crowd in.
And it's just so easy to get wrapped up in what's immediately in front of us. It's just so easy to get entangled in the gifts and lose sight of the giver. And this is one of the things that, that I love that we're emphasizing here, and we didn't make this up. We received this language from, uh, John Mark Comer and folks at Practicing the Way, and you've done a great job in your leadership as pastor of spiritual formation of really kind of getting this down into the bones of who we are as a church.
But be with Jesus, become like Jesus, do, do as He did. And I think that there, and maybe in an upcoming sermon series we're gonna get to jump on this a little bit, it's easy to be like, "Well, I'm just gonna be like Him and, and do as He did," and kind of miss out on the, on the really just be with Him.
And if someone, uh, hears this message and they're like, "Yeah, I hear what you're saying. It kind of makes sense. I, I follow your logic, but that still feels too murky, too far off, too, too foggy," I would wanna say, tell me about your experience with Jesus.
Do, how well do you think you know him?
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: Do you feel like you are being with him in your spiritual life? To, just kinda tell me about that, because if there's a gap there, then there's gonna be aspects of this message that feel like it's just fallen on the floor.
Svea: I, I was kinda running a thought experiment in thinking about this message and what that would be like for- Mm-hmm
heaven to be with Jesus. Mm-hmm. Like, if that's my primary way of understanding it, I was thinking, what would it be like to actually have Jesus physically present with me in an entire day?
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: And, you know, to wake up and get to have breakfast with him, and just chat over a cup of coffee- Mm-hmm ... and toast and, like- Mm-hmm
you know, here's what's going on today. What do you think we should be ready for? Mm. Or prioritizing?
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: Or, here's what I'm looking forward to in this day. Here are the things that are kinda causing me some stress, you know? Mm-hmm. Can you just give me some advice on how to- ... how to handle that? And then, like, the idea of going through the day and, and, oh, it was a beautiful sunrise this morning.
Jesus, did you- Mm-hmm ... did you see that? Yeah. You know, just the joy of getting to share the day with him.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: And then picturing every time, you know, there's that, that phone call that just didn't feel satisfying, I'm like, "Oh, help me process that, Jesus." Yeah. You know, just, it would be incredible to get to have him- Mm-hmm
physically there next to you to just be your companion throughout the day, and picturing that as heaven, where he is physically there.
Rick: Absolutely.
Svea: We're with him. It's not just a, an intention- Yeah ... but reality.
Rick: And so there's naturally some just kinda questions that are exploding now in, in my mind, and probably the minds of other people, are like, okay, when I read Revelation, it's, like, describes this multitude in heaven that's bigger than anybody can count, so-
Svea: How can he be with everyone?
how,
Rick: I, yeah. I don't know.
Svea: Yeah. I- Well, I think that's a him problem.
Rick: That's, that's not my problem to solve. Yeah. Not my problem to solve. Above my pay grade. I just know this is gonna be good.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And I think he's, I think he's got it figured out
Svea: You know, another question, maybe you're gonna get to some of this this weekend, but I was also trying to imagine heaven as this place where things are as they should be.
Mm-hmm. And there've been times in my life where I've wondered, will that stop being satisfying at some point? Just like everything's a little bit too clean, a little bit too orderly, a little bit too perfect. 'Cause sometimes it's kind of satisfying to have a mess to have to clean up. But then as I was thinking this, I was sitting yesterday on our back deck, and we're getting our house repainted right now.
They're, we're in the process of getting all the old stuff scraped off and, uh-
Rick: Does not sound fun ...
Svea: No, it's, it's not. But I was thinking, there will be no end of satisfaction and joy when the house is fully painted.
Rick: Sure.
Svea: There won't be any longing for it to- Yeah ... look messy with paint falling off anymore- Mm-hmm
just to be able to go through the process again. Um, and I imagine maybe heaven will be kind of like that. Like, we won't be drawn down by just the ickiness- Mm-hmm ... of life or the- Mm-hmm ... the entropy of life, and instead, where we're looking, it's just like, that's just satisfying.
Rick: Yeah. I think that you raise two important themes at once in what you're talking about.
I think that there will be, I'm very confident that there's gonna be meaningful responsibility that's life-giving, that doesn't wear us out or wear us down. It actually fills us up. So we will have jobs. We will have, we will have responsibilities. I don't know exactly what those things are, but we'll, we'll have those.
But we won't have the burdensome toil- Mm-hmm ... and labor.
And what we also won't have, and I think, I think this is the other thing that you kind of picked up on, we won't have- Boredom, as in the sense of we get tired of a good thing.
And one of the probably least talked about aspects of how the fall and sin has marred us is our seemingly limitless capacity for boredom with wonderful, amazing things.
I think it was G.K. Chesterton, I know you and I have talked about this before, uh, who, who talked about the kind of the glory and the beauty of a sunrise, and that God doesn't have the capacity to get bored with that. It's like again and again- Mm-hmm ... he enjoys it afresh, uh, with the, with the same level of enthusiasm, while we can get bored with amazing things.
I think in heaven, we lose that aspect of the fall. Mm. Where the depreciating nature of joy, or you used the word entropy, it doesn't just kind of wear out, it just continues to thrive, and we continue to be full of it, and, uh, full of, full of joy and gratitude and celebration and all the good and appropriate things.
So I'm not worried about that. Mm-hmm. I don't know how to live like that now. I'd like to live a little bit more like that right now, but yeah, I don't think that's something we have to worry about.
Svea: That'll be a wonderful thing to look forward to. Another great thing to look forward to is finally being in this place where the suffering that marked so much of our life now won't exist.
Rick: That's right.
Svea: I loved the section of the message where you kind of contrasted the escapism- Mm-hmm ... from what the gospel has to say about it. Yeah. And specifically, like, where it comes into play with suffering. The- Mm-hmm ... the gospel doesn't require us to just ignore suffering or pretend like it's not there or it's not just dragging us down.
But instead, the gospel says, "No, look it in the face." Yes. "Acknowledge it."
Rick: Yes. "
Svea: Deal with it, but face forward."
Rick: That's right. It's not the whole story.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: And even if it's- It's a
Svea: real thing, but not the final thing.
Rick: That's right. Man, that's, that's so, that's so important, and this is one of the reasons that Christians have been able to, um, thrive in difficult circumstances.
This is one of the things that has caused many, many people to want to become followers of Jesus, is watching Christians die well, watching Christians suffer well, watching Christians be able to sacrifice because they're not clinging to things of this world, trying to squeeze heaven out of it, but they know that heaven waits for them.
And so they can even give up something now, even their very lives. Mm. Because ultimately, they don't lose, they win. Mm-hmm. Right? And so it's incredibly powerful. This weekend there was... We had a big funeral here, and, and so I'm writing two sermons at the same time this week, one on heaven and writing a funeral sermon.
And so man, this stuff has been swirling around me all the time. And at the, at the funeral, I shared a quote at the end from a guy named Aristides. Uh, he lived in the second century, and he was a Christian, and he was trying to write as a defense of what the Christian faith is to a world that was very hostile to it.
And one of the things he wrote about was funerals, and is that at funerals, that, that Christians are able to basically celebrate, and they carry someone's body out, uh, to where they're gonna bury them, as though they are going to another place nearby. Mm. And for Christians who've been gripped by, uh, the words of Christ, that the kingdom of heaven is here, we know that heaven and the kingdom of Christ is so very close.
Mm-hmm. Um, and there's tremendous comfort in that. When we remember those things, I think it really helps us- To face the now with wisdom and with joy and with grace and all of those things. But there's a real wrestling match because these, the good things in this life have deep hooks that get them in, in our heart and in our soul, and they, there's something about the nature of sin that wants to pull all of our attention and affection onto those things instead of turning to Christ.
And that's, I mean, that's, that's where the sweat equity - Mm ... is, is found in the Christian life. It takes effort to do that, and that effort's okay.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And it's not pretend, and it's, it is a million miles away from escapism.
Svea: Yeah. So where's that, that balance between just, like, hold onto hope, you know, it's, it's gonna get better, it's not always gonna be that way, and also just entering into the reality of pain with someone?
Mm-hmm. Like, how do we encourage someone in a way that helps them kind of still see what's yet to come, um, but can just sit with people in their pain and in the messiness of what they're going through today?
Rick: Unpack that a little bit more. Tell me a little bit more about that, the tension that you're putting your finger on.
Svea: Yeah. Well, 'cause- You know, I've, I've, I guess I've felt this in my own life- Mm-hmm ... at different times where, for example, when my first husband passed away- Mm-hmm ... there were people who very well-meaningly were saying, you know, "You're gonna see him again. It's just gonna be like the blink of an eye, and you'll be there together again."
And, and I- Not
Rick: a blink an eye for an, a, not, not the blink of an eye for you
Svea: No, but I mean, their- When
Rick: you've got two little ones
Svea: Their point was that, like, when you compare life here on Earth to life in eternity-
Rick: Yeah ... it's- Can I just slap that in the mouth real fast? There is this desire and we have it in church culture.
I don't think it's the gospel culture, but it is church culture. It's not gospel culture. Let me be clear- Mm ... about that. It's church culture, and it's not just church culture, but we, but we see it here. We want things to be neat and tidy.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: Knock it off. It's not neat and tidy. Tell me what aspect of Jesus' life was neat and tidy.
Mm. Tell me what aspect of Paul's life and Peter's life and Barnabas's life was neat and tidy. It's not, and that's okay. See, we can, we can be fully invested in the here and now, and we can, we can be honest about the mess and the hurt and all of it. We can move towards mess because we know ultimately it's not the end.
And so I don't know how long it's gonna last, but I know it's not forever, and even if I'm still in it when I take my last breath, I know this isn't final.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: And so when you know that, you don't have to know when the finish line is. You just know there is a finish line.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: And so le- let's redeem what your friends were trying to share with you. When you are on the other side, to whatever degree we're able to look back and see, we'll say, "It all pales in comparison to what we have now, and whatever I had to go through on that journey is worth it because of what I have now."
So there is truth in that. There absolutely is truth in what they're what they were trying to say and what they were trying to communicate. Let's just break up with our need for it to be neat and tidy.
Svea: Mm. Yeah, I appreciate that because I think the tendency to try to make things neat and tidy ends up feeling like minimizing things-
Rick: Mm-hmm
Svea: uh, in a way that isn't necessarily helpful.
Rick: Well, some of these things are just monumentally tragic.
You know? The, the loss of a spouse when you have two little ones, that's monumentally tragic but not devastating if we're using devastating in the way that it's intended. You didn't lose yourself.
You didn't lose your purpose. You didn't lose your value. You didn't lose your, you didn't lose your life. You didn't lose your hope, but you did have to go through something that was just monumentally difficult.
Svea: Yeah. I do think keeping that balance between knowing that Jesus is walking with us through- Mm-hmm
the messes- Yeah ... today, and that one day that will be even more tangible than what we're able to experience-
Rick: Oh,
Svea: yeah ... um, is helpful. And maybe that is kind of like the story you brought in with Florence Chadwick- Mm-hmm ... and her swimming experience, and how she lost perspective for being- Mm ... in the fog, and when she just was out, just- Mm
physically depleted and couldn't go any further, and the fog just gave her no hope of seeing an end in sight, uh, that, uh, that she couldn't go on. And then later realizing how close she was there, and if she could have seen the shore, she thinks that could have given her the, the oomph to keep going.
Rick: She probably would've made it.
Svea: Yeah.
Rick: For sure. She had the training, she had the ability. She just didn't have the ability to see.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: And yeah, and it's amazing how that Can drain how much we think we're able to endure, how much we're able to do. When something feels like there is no finish line, it's like why keep going?
If it's infinitely away, if I give up now or if I give up 1,000 years from now, I'm still just as far away from the finish line. But yeah, it is powerful when you can see, ah, there it is. I can ride this out. I can keep going.
Svea: So in the last couple of weeks- Mm-hmm ... uh, it's come up a couple of times where you've talked about when someone is, is feeling weak- Mm-hmm
or someone is feeling fearful- Mm-hmm ... that one of the purposes of community is that we can loan them our strength. Yeah. We can loan them our courage. Mm-hmm. Um, this feels like a week of when someone is feeling just weary and grief-filled, we can loan them our hope.
Rick: Also.
Svea: We can be the, maybe the ones to try to clear the fog a little bit- Yeah
and help them see the shore. Mm-hmm. And help them see there is a real heaven awaiting you- Mm-hmm ... that, that isn't sitting on a cloud with a harp and
Rick: Yeah ...
Svea: and a boring, ethereal existence.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: But that the goodness of this life now will meet its complete fulfillment in the kingdom that it w- the way it was supposed to be.
Rick: That's right.
Svea: Yeah ... and, and that that's real, and that's awaiting us-
Rick: Mm-hmm ...
Svea: as believers. Yeah. And maybe that is a way of, of just kind of helping people see the shore.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: So that the afterlife isn't an afterthought.
Rick: Yeah. I think that would be, I think that would be great. You know, I think one of the reasons that sometimes we might shy away from it you, what's the expression?
You know, don't be so heavenly minded, you're no earthly good. And hopefully, we are redeeming or, kind of drawing back in and, and reframing how to think about heaven in a way that helps us to be even more engaged right now. I know C.S. Lewis, C.S. Lewis was a big, was a big fan of that.
He, he did a great job of talking about that. So if there's somebody, if they're, they're struggling in a marriage right now, whatever they're investing, I hope they can see, you know what? This really is worth it. It might be hard today, but it is worth it. If there's someone who's, they're grinding at school, and it feels like they're never gonna be done, that they would s- this is worth it, and it's not just for, it's not just the immediate stuff of getting a degree and, and getting a job.
But something is happening in me, and I trust that Jesus is using this time even now to make me more like him, and the more I become like him, the greater capacity I have to enjoy heaven. And I think that's a hard thing to wrap our minds around, and I don't know that we'll have time to talk about it in this weekend's message.
But imagine if you didn't like Steve as much as you do. Going to Banff with him would not be as fun.
Svea: Mm-hmm.
Rick: But because of all of your experiences, because of how you guys have grown together, it's gonna be even More
Svea: It'll be sweeter.
Rick: Yeah, more fun, sweeter all of that kind of stuff. Because your capacity to just enjoy being with him is growing.
Right? And so the same thing happens in our relationship with Christ. As we are spending more time with him, becoming more like him, our capacity to enjoy him grows. And so-
Svea: So talk more about that. Let's finish here. Well, I don't know what else to
Rick: say. Okay.
Svea: No, let's finish here. Yeah. Well, let me just put you on the spot.
Rick: Like- We're kind of going ... We're all, I feel like we're all over the place.
Svea: We are a little bit. That's
Rick: all right. This is like a Barry Sanders run. It's not, it's not preplanned. It's just happening in the moment.
Svea: There you go. Sure. What,
Rick: what you said- He's your favorite running back.
Svea: Yes. What, what ... Sure. How do you grow your own capacity for enjoying Jesus?
What does it look like for you in your own life?
Rick: Man, I don't know how to give an answer that's not that's not cliche.
I think really having slow times of reading the Bi- It's so easy, as a pastor, it's easy to read the Bible and to read it so you can talk about it-
...
Rick: To other people, but to read it just to be curious and to let my mind go wherever it goes, uh, for me, that's part of it.
I think it's, I think it's because I'm a, I'm an analytical kind of person, so I need, I need that aspect of it, and we've talked about this before, how I'll have questions and I'll highlight verses in purple. Any, any verse in, on my Bible app that's highlighted in purple, that's where I have a question, and then I put a, like, a little digital sticky note there- Mm
and I, and I type out things, and so, and I feel like that helps propel me just into, into learning and discovery, and I never wanna, I never wanna lose that. I think times of real just honest prayer, you know, slow, unhurried, meandering. And then for me, Svea, I, I think we're very similar in this.
It's time and nature.
You know, where I can just slow down. That's the only time that I feel like, like my brain really turns off with all the cares that we carry in, in various arenas of responsibility. Those things are monumentally, monumentally helpful- Mm ... and important to me in my r- my relationship with Christ.
And then the other is, it's learning something about Jesus through people, especially people who are different than me, again, I, I feel like I keep coming back to C.S. Lewis, but he's probably one of the guys who I found to be more helpful than anybody else on, on these things. He talked about when one of his when one of his friends died, in their friend group, not only did they lose that person, but he also lost a bit of his other friends because there's aspects of them that only came out when they were with that one friend.
Svea: Sure, yeah.
Rick: And and I think I learn stuff about God's goodness through other people who are made in His image who reflect it in a way that it's just different- Mm ... that doesn't come naturally to me. And, you know, I don't wanna feel like I'm spinning this into a, a commercial, uh, for small groups or a, a ministry that we have here, but I...
Listen, I, I just don't understand how someone thinks that they could go through the Christian life and not get in messy community with other people. I just don't, I don't know. Mm. You're missing out on so much. It's the messiness that's part of the goodness. It's the k- stuff that you don't like about it that's part of the goodness that God is using To refine you and to mold you and to sanctify you, and the other people who are there.
Svea: Yeah. Yeah.
Well, without even trying, you just kind of walked through our framework for spiritual formation- Did
Rick: I
Svea: really? ... and the three aspects of that. So we're, you know, we're talking now and, and we'll be increasingly so as we go forward. Did
Rick: I have a Bob Ross moment? Yeah. Like, a happy
Svea: accident? A happy accident.
Yeah. Yes, you did. I'm
Rick: so glad you knew that reference. You did not know the Barry Sanders reference.
Svea: You can't expect me to know the football references. But Bob Ross, yeah, I was up on that one. Um, no, this, the framework of we grow in our faith through growing in our knowledge of God and His ways- Mm-hmm
through our intentionality about spiritual practices- Mm-hmm ... and being with Jesus, and in relationships with other people. Yeah. So you talked about the curiosity you have when you're reading your Bible and how that drives you to, to try to learn more.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: You talked about being out in nature, where you just have a place to be able to pray, to talk to God- Mm
to focus your mind to just be with Him there. Mm-hmm. And you talked about the importance of relationships and community.
Rick: Yeah.
Svea: And, yeah.
Rick: That wasn't on, that wasn't by design. That we stumbled into that.
Svea: I know. I, well, I think, I think our framework has some legs.
Rick: Well, it's probably 'cause it's true, you know?
It's probably 'cause that framework is helpful, then,
Svea: you know. So I'd encourage that for people- Yeah ... as they're seeking to grow- Yeah ... in their capacity- Yeah ... for loving Jesus and growing that, uh, delight in their relationship with Him. Seek to try to learn more about Him.
Rick: Okay, here's a teaser. So we've, we're gonna wrap up, uh, the, The End series this weekend.
We're gonna get a little bit more detail-oriented and tangible with heaven. And then we've got a vision weekend there we will launch our capital campaign that, that's coming with that, September 19th and 20th. And then after that, we kick off a new series. Mm-hmm. And I can't remember how long that was.
Is it seven? Eight weeks. It's eight weeks. It's eight weeks. Uh, I love the, I love the kind of the imagery and the branding we use to, to package it, but I really I ... Listen, if you've enjoyed this conversation, this is just scratching the surface of stuff we get to get into with that series. And I think it has the ability to unlock a whole new world for a lot of folks.
Mm-hmm.
Svea: No, I can't wait for that
Rick: one. Not secret information, but just a whole new world of like, ah, the penny has- A
Svea: way of seeing and understanding the spiritual journey
Rick: Yeah. The, the penny has dropped, and now, yeah I'm ... I feel closer to Jesus, and I feel closer to other people in my church.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Svea: In a way that's not just grasping at fog, but actually being able to see the shore- Yeah, yeah ... and where we're headed. Mm-hmm. And, and, uh, yeah, I'm excited for that. That's gonna be good.
Rick: Okay.
Svea: Well, one more week in this series. Mm-hmm. And so you're gonna give us a little bit more of a picture of heaven?
Rick: I'll do my best.
Svea: All right. Well, we'll look forward to that, and look forward to discussing it on the podcast next week.