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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
Anti-Burnout with Alan Briggs - Part 2
00:00
Well, as you think about the work that you're doing with leaders, and I love, can you read again the subtitle of the book? Yeah, a lighter way to live and lead in a heavy world. Yeah. So as you think about the context and you warned us that the first couple chapters are the bummer chapters because you're kind of naming the reality of what is true in our world, give us a sense of like, so then what?
00:27
I am voluntarily exploiting myself. End of book. That is all. Thank you. Check out the sequel. So what's interesting is I moved from like a 30,000 foot view all the way down to the runway of like hyper practical. And the key I think like the fulcrum moment is the shifts that we need to make. And so like a couple of those shifts are from reactive to proactive is huge.
00:56
And so like Stephen Covey of 7 Habits, that's vital to go like, what is the life that I am designed to live? I believe God invites us in as a co-designer to that. And that's not going to happen on accident. It's just not. Because your idea of the good life is my idea of the bad life. Your idea of the best week is my idea of the worst week. And to co-design those and another shift from a doer to developer, many times I feel like we are stuck inside of our own lives.
01:25
If you're a leader that's listening to this, that's an easy way to burn out is trying to do everything versus developing as my kids get older, developing them for success and doing things alongside of them. And then just being there as a resource or a consultant in that. And so there's seven shifts in there that are key and actually do some naming work. Here's an obstacle, but if you push through it, here's an opportunity. Here's an obstacle and here's an opportunity. And so I say we're going on a bear hunt.
01:51
Like my favorite book as a kid, you can't go over it, you can't go under it, you got to go through it. And man, we love to tiptoe around this stuff. But when we do, we don't actually learn the lesson. And we also don't have on the other side of that, the gift that comes to us of resilience and the gift of realizing, man, maybe I've matured, maybe I've pushed through this. So those are some of the things at the very end. I kind of borrow a lot of practices from people. Some of them I've tried out myself and work really well for me. But...
02:19
Some people I deeply respect, I have these 10 minute habits, these $10 investments that create $10,000 returns. And that would be my hope is that we would act our way into a different way of thinking and realizing I'm the kind of person that could exercise each week. I'm the kind of person who could put my phone away at eight and have a meaningful conversation to connect with my wife. I'm the kind of person that every week could schedule time with my kids and a date and actually have it and then actually realize, yeah, I am that person.
02:48
And that's actually the good life that I want to live. I'm the kind of person who makes a fly rod for my son. Yes. I want to be that kind of person. You guys are the worst. Yeah, this is unbelievable. That's why we brought you here, Jesse. I'm glad I could. You are literally the man. The ideal chiseled man. Ugh. I'm gonna have to put this out. The reality is I am not.
03:12
kind of person who could make a flyer on. That's just not like within my general wheelhouse. You made a camper that was gorgeous. That's unbelievable. So don't push that off. Okay, Jesse, do not make this man. That's a good word, Alan. Thank you for bringing that back up. Yeah, that is, I appreciate that. Well, I want to keep the conversation going and just kind of unpack a little bit more of what is burnout? What is, you know, where does it come from? But then
03:41
As you were talking just a minute ago, Alan, I want to ask the question, like what is the fallout? What is the collateral damage of burnout? And specifically with restoration project, our vision is to see a world of restorative men, that men who exist and bring restoration to the worlds around them. And even some of the language recently that has helped me and I'm hoping to help others is that it's not a world of restored men.
04:11
because that means it's one and done, you've kind of arrived, you've crossed that finish line and now you're restored and all that. But a world of restorative men, meaning that you're on the journey to restoration, and there is an ever-increasingness to that along with, and I still need to keep working on that, there is a restorative nature to that. And even while I'm at the front end of that, I can bring, I can participate in bringing restoration to the world around me. However long, if it's a day or a decade that you've been a part of it.
04:39
like in that restorative journey, you can still bring restoration. And my assumption is that burnout is anti-restorative, that there is something about when we move towards the burnout space, that it's a reduction of our ability to bring our, and I don't even want to use the word ability, like our identity as restorative men, because it's, you know, it's who God made us to be. So
05:05
What do you see in leaders? What do you see in situations where you're recognizing like, is there collateral damage? What do you see? Yeah, so the word that comes to mind is zombies. Like so many people are walking in our culture as zombies. And I think that the word here too is essence. Like when the essence of somebody is truly there versus like, are you in there? You know, like we're a shadow or we're a box with
05:34
not containing anything. And I've been there for different seasons. If that's you and other people like, hey, like, are you there? Or your wife is like, hey, are you in there? Like, I'm right here. Yeah. Hey, hey, not just put your phone down, but like, hey, be here with us. And so I just think we don't have our essence to offer to somebody else when we're not actually there. We're not actually present. We're literally living somewhere else. And my temptation is to live in the future with plans and dreams and ideas.
06:02
which is why one reason Sabbath is such a gift is because I don't have to produce anything. And I literally get to be me, kind of a slob in my sweatpants, just being around, being present. My kids don't have to interrupt me because I'm not really doing anything in that sense. And we get to do that together. The fallout first is with our families and it's the ripple effect. And so those who are closest to us pay the biggest price for our burnout. And we pay the price as well, but it just takes us a while to realize it. It's sort of on a delay. And so...
06:30
I think that's the pain and what you guys are doing is you literally want the opposite to be true. And that as a man comes back alive, that our kids notice it and then our spouses notice or wife notices our friends, our close friends, and then eventually it could go out as well. And so I'm simultaneously very discouraged and very encouraged at the state of our culture because overall you look and culturally it's not good and it requires such resistance. But yet there are these pockets of men.
07:00
and women who are doing it, who are doing the hard work. And I tell real stories in the book because the opposite is true. When it's restorative, then we're seeing that blessing also rolls downhill. We know what else rolls downhill, but blessing does as well. And so that's, I think, been the most humbling thing to see versus writing this bad boy five years ago. Here's a dream. It's like you guys can tell stories of the men who are restorative and are being restored.
07:27
I get to tell those stories and I hold those. Obviously, I change the names, but I hold those stories very sacred. Maybe last is that we don't realize how trapped we are in our own expectations. Disappointment is always a product of unmet expectations. The reality is so many of us are disappointed in ourselves knowing we could live so much more, so much deeper, so much fuller. That's the reality I think of disappointment is that it hits us at some point. We know we're living a lesser life than we could. Yeah.
07:57
Yeah. Oh, that's so good. And you know, at RP we talk a lot about, you just name two things. One is that when a man is absent, the world suffers. And when a man is violent, the world suffers. And I think what we're talking about in the range of burnout is that there are some men that will kind of tend into the violent spaces, that when they're burned out, they will get frustrated. That disappointment you just talked about.
08:27
will escalate their level of energy, rage, frustration, contempt, whatever it is, it will escalate into violence. And I don't know how often that is, but I would also say that the absence that when you're just saying like your mind is somewhere else, you're focused, you're not present, you're not there, both of those have an equal impact. Yeah. And yet it's not safe right now, especially, I mean, thank God, violence, we are calling that out.
08:56
right? Toxic forms of anything, leadership or overly controlling masculinity or whatever that is in the workplace has no place. But we've made such room for escapism on the other side. Yes. Yeah, you're right. It's equally damaging. So I talk in here about fight or flight. And in the middle, in that tension zone is actually flourish where we need to have this warrior way, but it's more about peace about us. And to me, I'm fighting a great battle every week. You are too. Everybody listening.
09:25
You are fighting a great battle every week, but it's not against my kids, it's actually for them. And it's not against my own soul, it's for it. I want to close my laptop and go home. Even though I may not actually do that, I want to go home and be that. And so I just think it's such good language, Chris, that you're saying around that violence and absence, fighting and flighting from that flourishing right there in the middle. Yeah, let's shift over into some of those practical things, Alan.
09:54
Let's talk about, okay, so guys listening, you recognize either you're in the realm of burnout or you're on the edge of burnout or you're headed down the road towards burnout. And I would say, you know, that's probably 95% of us. Let's just be honest. It's either us or we know someone who it is. Please, please introduce me to the person who's not somewhere on that journey. Totally. So again, the subtitle, you know, is about that lighter way. So help us, help.
10:23
unpack that for us. Man, I love to go straight to practices because I think that practical and the spiritual are so connected and yet we pulled it apart as if something that is practical is not spiritual. What could be more spiritual than me dedicating a time for me to go with my oldest son on our Chipotle date tonight? That to me is very practical. It has to happen on a calendar. It costs a certain amount of money. We have to coordinate schedules.
10:50
But that's where we connect. That's where my son shares his heart and his dreams and his ideas and whatever. We talk about why carnitas is better than carne asada, like dumb stuff too. But to me, it's what if we could see that the practical actually is deeply spiritual? Is that the work of our hands? Is that our schedule? What we say yes to and no to? I have turned down things that grieve me because they seem like perfect opportunities, but I'd already committed to something with my family and just nope. In fact,
11:19
I had to turn down Scotland. Chris, let's talk about that. If you're like, it'll be epic. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's on my bucket list. My daughter made it into a play. And I remember texting you and like, she made it. Cool for her. My heart immediately sunk because I had pre-committed to that. And yet to me, it doesn't get more practical than that. The dates are taken. I'll be actually cheering my daughter on for like 16 plays over three days. Let's do it.
11:46
I just think we focus so much on the launch, we haven't thought about the recovery. And whether it's you guys launching some incredible event for four days, you're tired afterwards, right? There's like a good tired but like, oh man, that's real, the weight of that. And so recovery practices, mental health, obviously, Chris and within the clinical space, there's so much there. I'm not a clinician. But emotional health, frankly, that's a lot about connection and community.
12:16
If you're leading something, I know you can invite your team in better. Every week I can invite my team in better at stay forth than I do in that. And so just some practices, what would it look like to actually invite people in better and some tools around that that people actually use over time to be able to create empowerment, not dependency. I don't want to be the coach that strips people of their agency. I actually want to be the coach that gives it back to people with tools. Adrenaline and caffeine have been a big one. What are some practices for actually limiting?
12:46
adrenaline caffeine. At one point, I'll use the word caffeine dependent. Really, I was addicted to caffeine. Six or eight cups a day, you get a headache if you don't have... Dude, you're addicted, bro. Just say that. But adrenaline, the internal drug of just, hey, if you need the next thing, the next meeting to be exciting or energizing, you go from one place to another. Eventually, my kids are going to feel that. And so those are some of the ones that I really focus on. Work boundaries.
13:13
And again, relational connection is one that I think is really important. How many friends don't necessarily need a coach right now, you don't necessarily need a therapist right now. You need friends that you can sit with and laugh with and cry with. And I talk about loser communities. I'm tired of loser communities. Loser communities are spaces where we can only share the crap in our life and what's hard and what's not going well, and we cannot celebrate. I'm sorry, friends. That's a VIN of victims. That's detention.
13:39
That is not a community. If we cannot share, I won today, I'm celebrating today. Oh yeah, and I'm hurting at the same time. And I'll do that around a campfire of, I don't know, 25 or 30 guys in my backyard two nights from now. And I'm telling you guys will leave in tears going like, this is exactly what I needed. My heart is full tonight. So those are some of the practices I kind of introduced people to. I love even thinking you started talking about Sabbath as something that you intentionally do.
14:05
And it's fascinating to me how much more we need to grow in the realm of Sabbath-ing. And I'm hesitating because it's almost like we don't murder generally. We don't, you know, try to, we don't have another God. There's these commandments and Sabbath is the fourth commandment. And I think we forget that Sabbath is the fourth commandment. It's actually a commandment. Just as do not murder. Keep the Sabbath.
14:35
And yet we don't. I'm pretty good at not murdering. That is a skill set that I have. I'm so glad. We've congratulated you. And all of us are glad. And you better be glad. Jesse, you better be glad I'm coming over. But I don't keep the Sabbath in the way with the same level of intentionality and automatic nature. I'm automatically not a murderer. At least I try to be, right?
15:03
And but I'm not automatically a Sabbath keeper. And that's something that I need to work on. What's so interesting is like whenever we start talking about Sabbath, I know there's somebody listening and you're you. You're like in the car right now or you're hearing this going like, oh, who's got time or don't go monastic on me guys. And it's like, guys, I run two and a half businesses. Yes, please. Actually, I love let's go monastic. And all that like, come on. Like we all have a ton but the reality is like I get to choose and it's an act of faith. Yeah. But...
15:33
It's also an invitation. I never know how much I need it until I'm actually going, and like you'd think I'd get the hang of it by now. Be like, Alan, you absolutely need it. But it's like, no, I think I'm doing okay. We're always more tired than we think. And we've always drifted more than we think. And what's interesting is I go home and how I know that I need Sabbath and people ask me, how do you know, is that for me, I think my work hasn't mattered at all. My work's not tangible. I don't build anything out of wood each week. I connect people.
16:01
and I help people, they take next steps, and I go home and I have nothing to show for my work tangibly at the end of the day. Which is one reason, by the way, I build things on Sabbath, is because they say if you work with your mind, then you Sabbath with your body. And so I need to climb rocks and build things and get splinters and create good work or shoddy work. And when I head home going like, I'm pretty sure I had no impact this week.
16:24
And I'm pretty sure I should do everybody a favor and stop doing this. And people have literally said, Alan, this is helping me so much, but I don't hear it because I'm so tired. And I head home. And that's actually when I do this thing on Thursday. It's called Thursday Fun Night. And in God's providence, it is on Thursday nights. And I go home and my kids don't give a rip what I produced that week. They don't even understand what the heck I do all day. Other than podcasting, I brought them on once. They don't understand what we do. And I've literally been playing
16:54
actually, this matters more than what I did the rest of the week and this I'm not going to lose right here. And so that actually winds me down for Sabbath to just get to receive. And so it's like this package that's underneath the tree and we just never opened it. It's been accessible. We don't take Sabbath like we don't take sabbatical. We receive it because it's a gift. And I just get to choose whether my hands are open or not. And so my mindset's really shifted on Sabbath a ton, Chris.
17:21
I think the thing too that I love about those practices, Alan, is, and I know you view those as not just something that happens maybe one day a week on a Sabbath, but they're actually consistent ongoing rhythms. But like when you talk about celebrating with other people, when you talk about recovery, when you talk about deep belonging, emotional connection, that begins to, I feel like flesh out.
17:42
that flourishing state that you're talking about that actually is God's intention for Sabbath, right? It is not just like, Hey, we're going to have 20 hours of a nap, right? It's actually this deep delight and flourishing to which those practices that you just shared actually give practical ways to engage that. But I think it's so helpful than just sort of this blanket like, well, just don't work and you know, sit on the couch, right? And that's not really actually helpful. So those practices as a, as a means to
18:08
flourishing I think is, that's super, super helpful. Pleasure stacking is a lot of people talk about around Sabbath. And I talk about a get to's versus have to's. We live almost all of our days and even my evenings. I had like 17 pickups yesterday and drop offs with my kids and I won. I brought my kids home and they slept in their beds last night. I'm a winner. I did not leave them anywhere. I just want to brag for a second. This isn't safe to sell me, right? Thank you. I'm leaving here, you know?
18:38
And I literally the have to is we live in all the time. And even if it's a good thing, we've committed ourselves to. And there's this day, even we try to do nothing till one o'clock on Saturdays. And just to go wake up and like, what are we doing today? I don't know. And it was a cold Colorado weekend a couple weekends ago. And my wife and I just like, it's chilly. Wood stoves going on. And we're just reading a book next to each other. And I read a book during the week. It does not feel as joyful or pleasurable as that. I turn on the wood stove, it does not feel, there's something about it that I'm like,
19:08
Oh, this scone is good. Oh, this coffee is amazing. Oh, this fire is so warm. And I'm like literally a different person and that actually gets me ready for work again. And so instead of resting from work, getting used to working from rest, and that's where that momentum happens. Health first and then impact that I talk about here in the book. But it's been beautiful. There's not many silver bullets in life with God. That is one of them though. Oh, that's all so good. So good, thank you.
19:38
I want to acknowledge that what you are offering is both absolutely necessary and absolutely countercultural. And it is that rub of like, this is, this is what I need in every aspect of my life. I don't want to continue voluntarily self exploiting, right? That's not what I want. And I need something really practical. And so thank you for
20:01
doing the hard work over these last 13 years, five years, whatever it is to put this together because it is something that we all need. So I wanna ask as we close, like how do people find you? Where's the best place for them to get in touch with you, stay forth, the book, all the things. Yeah, just easiest place is just stay forth. Don't go forth, stay forth, S-T- And I do wanna say, if you wanna give the book a try and money is tight, challenging right now,
20:29
We understand and we budgeted for that. And so we're giving out essentially unlimited free copies of the book. We trust you. So just email us there at the bottom of our stay for site. We want to get this out to the right people. You don't have to be burned out to read this message. We actually want to see men who are healthy and who are self-aware who are leading that way. And so we're less of a hospital, more of a health club to say, let's stay in shape together. Let's stay healthy. We don't need to get to a carnage story before we work backwards.
20:58
So man, so appreciate you guys. And we're actually going to do a podcast swap. And so we're talking Man Maker Project. We're talking Sage, Jesse, Chris. What you guys do is incredible and has marked my family. I'm so grateful for you guys. And I want to be an evangelist to the cause wherever I can. Chris, I should probably get some royalties on your book, by the way, as many as I recommend and send out. So I think you owe me some money here. I think that's why I brought you here to say...
21:24
I don't know, feeding your vacation fund or something like that, but so grateful for you guys. Yeah. Well, likewise, Alan, thank you for what you're doing in the world and for, as we mentioned earlier, for walking alongside Jesse these last couple of months and the impact that that's having. And as you all, as listeners right now, please find Stay Forth. Please go grab a copy of that book. And because the last thing that we want, men, is a world of men who blow out sideways.
21:52
We want a world, we need to be a world, we're called to be a world of men who are bringing the restorative presence. And one of the things that is, I think, the biggest enemy of the restorative presence is exactly what Alan's been talking about, and that is burnout. Burnout because we're living a story that is not actually the story God designed for us to live. So, Alan, thanks for being with us today. It's been so great to talk with you. Yeah, love you guys, appreciate you guys. Keep it up, RP, you guys are amazing. All right, well maybe I'll take you out to the theater.
22:21
Maybe can I pay you back by taking you out to dinner? Fair. I received that. Okay, sounds good. Talk to you later, Alan.