034 | From the right Bars to the right Wholesalers, Bottom-up | with Gaetano Chiavetta from Everleaf Drinks (London, UK)

Show Notes

Episode Deep-Dive Analysis Available at maffeodrinks.com 

In Episode 034, I spoke to Gaetano Chiavetta. He heads UK & Italy On-trade at Everleaf Drinks | B Corp. He has previously worked for Global Brands and brings Bar Manager and Bartender experience from several On-trade venues in London. I hope you will enjoy our chat.

Time Stamps

(2:26); Building Demand

(7:46); Targeting Via Wholesalers

(17:17); Building Systems For Connection

(26:28); Value of The Cocktail Menu

(29:58); Do The Homework

(39:10); Growing Beyond Your Home Market

(42:12); Contact Gaetano

About The Host: Chris Maffeo

About The Guest: Gaetano Chiavetta

Interested in Group Subscriptions, Keynote Presentations or Advisory? You can get in touch at [e-mail] or find out more at maffeodrinks.com 

Creators and Guests

Host

Chris Maffeo

Drinks Leadership Advisor | Bridging Bottom-Up Reality & Top-Down Expectations

Guest

Gaetano Chiavetta

Head of On-Trade | Everleaf Drinks B Corp

What is MAFFEO DRINKS Leadership Insights?

The MAFFEO DRINKS Podcast is a leading drinks industry podcast delivering frontline insights for drinks leadership.

For founders, directors, distributor MDs, and hospitality leaders navigating the tension between bottom-up reality and top-down expectations.

20+ years building brands across 30+ markets. Each episode features drinks builders: founders, distributors, commercial directors, sharing how the drinks industry actually works. Not the conference version. Honest conversations.

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Welcome to the Maffeo Drinks
Podcast.

I'm your host, Chris Maffeo In
episode 34 I spoke to Gaetano

Chiaveta.
He heads UK and Italy on trade

at Everlife Drinks B Corp.
He has previously worked for

global brands and brings bar
manager and bartender experience

from several on trade venues in
London.

I hope you will enjoy our chat.
Hi Gaetano, how you doing?

Hi, good morning, Chris.
I'm very good.

Thank you very much.
How you doing?

So finally we managed to meet in
person last week at Back Convent

in Berlin.
We managed to take a selfie and

a hug and and exchange a few
words.

It was a real pleasure after a
long time writing to each other

on LinkedIn.
And first of all, I have to say

that you are the main push.
When when I got your message A

year ago maybe and you said when
are you going to launch your

podcast, that would be great.
And then it made me think

because I had it in the back of
my mind.

Then I was procrastinating and
then finally I said OK, if

Gaetano is pushing me, then this
is the excuse.

There is at least one follower
and one listener.

Thank you for that and on on
behalf of all the listeners

because you were the main driver
behind it.

When I was reading your
fantastic blog, I would call it,

it was like, this would be
amazing, just to listen when I'm

on the tube or when I'm
travelling rather than than

reading.
Because we, we read every day so

many emails and having a podcast
that actually talks to you, some

talks to you so about something
that you eat and breathe every

day, it's amazing and yeah.
So yeah, I'm very glad that you

start today.
I'm very glad that the listen

that I enjoy your skills.
Yeah, thank you.

Thank you, Gaetano.
And of course, I mean you are

originally from Sicily.
I mean we are, we're both

Italians, but that's fun because
it's the first time we speak

English to each other.
We are usually writing and

speaking Italian.
Let's dive in because I have a

lot of questions for you that I
think our listeners could

benefit from.
And then you, you would be able

to really listen to yourself in
the car or in the tube.

So that's going to be fun.
It is amazing.

That's an amazing opportunity.
And yeah, I really look forward

to the question.
Thank you very much.

Absolutely.
Let's start with the basics.

One of my favorite topics is
building demand.

How do brands build demand?
Because one of the few things,

and especially since you started
working in bars, so you have

been on the other side of the
fence.

One of the struggles that most
brands have is that they failed

to build demand before entering
the bar.

So they show up at the door,
they speak to a bar manager, to

a bartender, to the owner of a
pub or a bar, and with the brand

that these people have never
heard of.

And that's the first step to
getting the the door on your

face.
So how do you build demand or

how do you believe brands should
build demand and what's your

experience from, let's say both
sides?

Because probably like people
have been reaching out to you to

lease products back in the days
and now you are that person that

does that.
So what's your take on that?

First of all, I feel like the
demand needs to be there.

If there is no appetite for a
specific product, it's very

difficult to create a product
that.

It doesn't have any demand.
So if I create something with a

Marmite liquor when there is no
Marmite demand in the market,

it's pretty much impossible to
serve that, although, you know,

maybe a Marmite liquor will be
interesting to that.

But yeah, the demand needs to be
there.

The appetite for the specific
brand, the specific product

needs to be there or at least
there.

A little demand needs to be
there.

And once the demand is there,
it's just about targeting the

right audience, the right
customers.

So bartender says about being a
cool brand, about being a real

brand.
It's not about being a brand

which has been created by a
corporate that has been reading

data and he's been seeing the
gap in the market that they

found the gap in the market and
they jump into the vegan of, oh,

there's a new trend.
We're going to target this,

we're going to create this.
So I feel that bartenders are

more emotionally attached to the
brand.

So try to find the kind of
demand trying to find the hook.

Is important and from my
specific experience with our

leaf was that Paul is actually
have got really true roots into

nature which is what we are
about and then to into bars.

So it's a bartender is also a
genius or plant is also a

conservation biologist.
This really helps creating that

demand that really helps driving
the truth of the brand.

How do you do that or how do you
believe that it should be done?

So is it about talking about the
product or do you talk about

specific target occasion?
I know Everleaf is a non

alcoholic comparative, so in in
that's in that sense what is the

actual hook that you are using
in terms of building demand.

So for example, a lot of people
are doing either a podcast or

they're doing the writing about
it.

They are talking, they're doing
PR, they're doing.

What is the theme that you
believe works based on your

experience when you went to the
bar and actually people say, oh,

I heard about you, I heard about
your brands.

So social media, so obviously
nowadays are key, really

important having those important
bartenders talking about the

brand, it's great credentials
because they're people that look

at those button and say oh great
that X button that is using ever

Leaf so.
He must be good because that

bartender is incredible.
That bartender is a judge into a

drinks awards competition and
and so on.

We entered so many competitions
for in the last few years as

well that gave us gold and
Silver Stars and that's really

important.
PR as you mentioned obviously is

key, but I feel like creative
demand itself.

It's literally important to go
bar to bar and that's how you

start.
That's how I started myself with

this brand.
Then is the second brand.

I start from the beginning when
the first few weeks with every

leaf was literally how many
accounts do we have.

Like we had about 10 in London.
And I'm like there is no point,

I'm going to like contact
wholesalers if there is no

demand from the bottom, if the
bars itself don't even know what

it is, they didn't even try.
What's the point?

I'm going to the wholesalers and
say can you list my product

please among the?
20,000 products they already

have.
No matter how good it tastes, no

matter how good the PR is, no
matter how good the social media

is, you really need to create
demand from the bottom.

And the only people that can
help you with it are the

bartenders are the boss.
So I literally hit the road,

couple of bottles in my bag, Try
this.

Not even introducing myself in a
way.

I'm this, I'm that.
I'm just let the liquid speak

and that's the strength.
Let's dig into that land without

sharing trade secrets from your
work, but just to give an idea

to listeners on how you work and
how you actually build that

demand from the bottom up.
So taking the example of the 10

bars that you mentioned, you
know how I'm a big believer of

the one case in one bar is
better than 6 bottles and six

bars.
But ultimately, it has become a

bit of a joke now when I talk
about it because obviously in

the beginning you need to do
that one bottle in each bar.

You need to break that case,
open it and work with that

bottle now.
So what is the balance on

actually like really getting
started when you have only 10

bars that are actually selling
you?

Yeah, I feel like both theories
are right.

Like 6 bottles in one bar,
great, you have a deeper

penetration within that box.
But you need to remember that

bar is ordering from one single
old sellers when 6 bars my order

from free.
Or two or six different

wholesalers.
So you really need to target

that specific topic.
So if you want to achieve all

those six wholesalers, you might
need to find 10 different bars

that buy from that different
wholesalers in order to get the

attention from the wholesaler.
They will buy your product and

distribute to that bar.
So if you go and focus just in

one bar at the beginning, it's
not going to help you much

because it's not going to create
much demand. 90% of the

wholesalers will ask you between
10.

To 20 distribution points before
you even consider to approach

them to buy your product.
The game at the beginning was

literally going around see which
wholesalers was mostly used by

the bars and penetrate than
that.

So if I will see OK XYZ bars are
buying all from Christmas fair

distribution I'm like great.
So Christmas fair distribution

very strong in this area.
I will do my best to win those

three or four accounts with.
Incentives with trainings, with

all the techniques that we use
themselves in order to unlock

Christmas fair distributions.
And once I have Christmas fair

distributions, I prove the point
to that the wholesalers prove

that I'm selling.
And then my build the

relationship with the
wholesalers who eventually will

introduce you to another hundred
200 accounts that they are

working with.
So it's all about relationships,

which we know it's all about
finding.

And pleasing the customer in a
way they're not pleasing by

saying, yeah, we'll do anything
if you take the product because

that's being desperate.
There's not being a sales

person.
It's it's probably finding a gap

or finding something that the
account that the customer needs

and solving an issue for them
more than actually selling.

See you later.
I'm not going to see you again,

just helping them with ourselves
and helping them with having

something.
Interesting to offer to that

customers and I love what what
you're saying because it's

touching many interesting points
now because I get a lot of

requests about what's the best
distributor in that country,

what's the best wholesaler in
that city.

It's a bit like when people are
coming to Prague and they say,

oh, can you give me a list of
places to visit for my friend?

And it's like, you know, tell me
more, is he coming with his

wife?
Is he like a honeymoon?

Is it like A5 blokes wanting to
have fun?

Like are they vegan or do they
like to have sausages and beers?

Tell me more because otherwise I
cannot help.

There is this tendency of oh,
this is a strong wholesaler, you

should go with them.
It's about understanding where

your target occasion or demand
space or however companies call

it nowadays is for for me at
least, it's it starts from the

bar, it starts from the bar and
then as you said rightly,

depending on where that person,
where that bar owner or bar

manager buys from, then you will
get the right direction towards

the wholesaler.
But in the beginning, before

doing that, before doing it top
down, you have to do it bottom

up and really understand what is
the right bar.

And then I will worry about
who's the wholesaler that brings

them bottles.
Yeah, you do your research,

obviously you do your research
in advance.

We were quite lucky because Paul
owns free bars in London.

So he knows the wholesalers
already knows which off seller

is specific for which product.
I was coming from another

company, so I knew some of the
wholesalers, but as you were

saying, there is never the best
wholesaler.

That is the biggest wholesaler.
Yes, the one there will generate

the most revenue and the one is
more spread around the one

that's got most number of
salesperson in the ground.

But there is never the best
wholesaler.

There is the best wholesaler for
your type of product.

So I know that my product will
not be the best product for wine

specialists for example, because
people that that they use wine

specialists, they they look at
their wholesaler for wines.

I know that I was going to look
for a wholesalers that we need

to look for wholesalers.
There are specialists of of

spirits, there are specialists
of cocktail ingredients because

that's where our brand essence.
Is founded, you need to look for

what's the best wholesaler for
your product and for your target

audience for your target bars.
So when we started we with

Everleaf, we we started with a
wholesaler.

There was the one that the
customer we found was using

wasn't necessarily the best
wholesalers for us?

No, probably wasn't.
It was just what the account was

using.
And then slowly, we started to

realize that there was another
wholesaler that was actually the

most geeky.
Wholesaler, they had the best

tequila, they had the best
liquors, they had the coolest

salesperson out there.
They could basically be the best

faces of us.
We have a very distinctive

product, Yes, non alcoholic are
growing, yes apparatus are

growing, but we are still a very
geeky product.

So people will sell these.
These kind of products needs to

be really expert or the the
cocktail scenario.

So you need to find what suits
your product.

You are already funneling down
on much less outlets than

somebody else may think.
Now and depending on the product

of course like you, you starting
from very specific outlets that

respond to very specific
category.

Not to your point like a non
alcoholic beverage,

automatically you are filtering
down the full potential of that

brand in that city.
Because this is another of these

topics that very often is
confusing.

Now you are now sitting in
London, but that doesn't mean

that all London's on trade is
responding to your product.

It will take time and to what
you were saying earlier.

You know there is the best
wholesaler for that product and

I would even add for your life
stage of that product because

what's good in the beginning may
not good in five to 10 years

time for example, huh?
Yeah, I completely agree at the

beginning with you would target
the Super hand bars.

Would use a specific wholesaler.
As you grow, you will target

even more mainstream bars
because that's where you

generate real volume, that's
where you generate big

distribution, number of
distribution.

So the wholesalers will be
different for those two types of

values and for those two types
of stages of life, stage of the

brand.
If you would tell me five years

ago, would you get your product
into the pub next door?

I probably wouldn't care about
that because nobody knew about

the brand and there was no point
for me to position the brand and

start from the pub on the
corner.

No offense to the pubs, but you
will start from the high end

bars where everybody looks at
and where the trend starts and

then slowly go down.
But nowadays we are on the stage

where we would love to be in the
more mainstream pubs because the

brand is growing enough that
there is more consumer

awareness, there is people's.
Starting people asking for that

product to the bar itself, it
makes more sense.

And then listening to you it, it
makes me think that there is a

clarification also like to be
done on on the category we're

talking about not because your
categories automatically and I

don't want to call it like an
elite category, but you know

what I mean like it's very
specific for specific type of

bartenders that are looking for
specific type of flavor, taste

profile, Botanic gold and so on.
So automatically you are

filtering down that the down the
street pub may not be there yet,

right.
If you had a A A gene, a more

mainstream category, no matter
if it's a premium gene or not,

but as a category itself gene is
more mainstream automatically

than than another type of
product, then I feel that there

is a lot of importance in
actually not going to target

only the top bar.
If you cannot access that, but

targeting actually the pub down
the street, because then in that

sense you actually makes
yourself relevant because maybe

you know them or they are
sitting next to your distillery.

In Czech Republic with
breweries, they used to go like

around the chimney, like they
are around the chimney.

So you can visit them often.
You can go there, you can have a

lunch break there.
They are part of your growing

journey and I feel very often
there is too much focus on this

very high end.
I mean yesterday there was the

the 50 best bars announcement.
There is a lot of focus on

those, but specific categories
are more relevant for those

specific bars and other
categories.

They could actually make much
more money and focus at the

beginning on more mainstream
local game.

I don't mean going to like
mainstream pubs and as such, but

to to win the locality.
We used to call it local

bigness.
In the old days it's make

yourself big locally and be
perceived even bigger than you

are because that's the
importance now.

Going back to what you were
saying before about connections,

now this is one of the the
topics I always discuss on the

podcast with my guests is we
know it's a people business.

Like we after writing to each
other all the time, like finally

we met and we hugged each other
and finally now we feel even

more connected because we
literally met.

There is a glass ceiling to that
now because ultimately people

have many friends, people have
many contacts, everybody has a a

brand or a friend working in a
bar or a bar owner and so on.

So I feel that we over rely on
that and we've all done it in

the past.
Now when I went solo on my

consulting, I said come on, I've
got like thousands of

connections, I've got so many
colleagues and so on.

And then all of a sudden is
crickets and the phone was

obviously not ringing because
everybody has already quite a

lot of stuff.
So what's the importance of

creating a system, an operating
system, to complement how great

you might be with connections
and with friends and and the

community?
It's it's funny you're saying

that because when when I moved
from the last brand I was

working with to to this one, I
think I had about 200 something

account.
I'm like, OK, great, I can turn

them all into new Everlift
customers.

But obviously there were the
challenges of the wholesalers.

We were knowing all of the
wholesalers.

But as you were saying, yeah, it
was surprising to see some great

relationships I had in the past,
completely muted, completely.

This interest, like they didn't
care about what I was doing.

And that's made you realize that
sometimes the relationships, you

feel they're great and not that
great because they just are

either using you for their own
interest or they're not real

connections.
Creating a system to build a

relationship, it's a bit tough
because, I mean in a big city

like this, it's not easy to meet
with people.

It's not always easy to see all
the people that you know.

I feel trade shows are important
because you get to see those

people all together.
You get to say hi and all in the

same room, all in the same
place, as you were saying when

we met in Berlin.
I went there on my own for the

first night and I posted on on
Instagram and after 10 minutes,

six people told me, oh, you're
in Berlin, let's grab a drink.

I'm like, OK, cool, that's
great.

So I'm not on my own.
I feel like social media helps

you a lot.
I use a lot of them.

For work and for connecting with
people, look, we go many perks

in the job that we do.
We can bring people out for a

pizza, for a drink, we can host
events and stuff.

But yeah, we could use something
like that to invite them to a

party and make sure you there is
a conviviality that is not just

about the business yourself, but
it's about human connection.

One of the things that I've
always been struggling with,

whether I was a sales guy myself
or whether I manage people in

the field, no matter the market
like it was in many different

European markets or elsewhere,
the the issue was always you

need to allow some freedom.
I don't like to dictate the

sales team where to go.
I don't want to, I don't want to

do the routing for them.
Especially because on trade is

not like off trade, like you're
not sitting, you're not having

an appointment with a buyer in
Tesco that has the appointment

in their outlook calendar and
they take it seriously, you know

how bars are.
So it's always like the guy

doesn't show up or there was an
emergency, had to go to another

bar that he owns on the other
side of the city, you are just

there and so forth.
So my question is more about how

do you manage to navigate that,
to navigate the complexity of

having a team on having yourself
as a, you know, your first one

man band as well and building a
system that actually can let you

prioritize things and not
wasting time.

Because for me it's not about
you do 5 calls a day, 10 calls a

day, 15 calls a day.
It's more about how can you be

effective, go into the right
bars that you're going to have

more chances to succeed, rather
than just walking around the

street and entering and cold
calling random pubs, as many

things people unfortunately
still do.

It's the most difficult part of
of the job, but it's the most

important.
Prepping and planning is

absolutely key, especially in a
big city like London or any

other big cities in in Europe
and the world.

So I always stress the
salespeople I work with to prep

and plan in advance, one or two
weeks in advance and literally

put in their calendar.
The venues that they want to

hit.
And once you visit those those

venues, you really need to
prioritize the one they've got

real interest.
Because sometimes those people

get trapped into talking a lot
without listening to actual the

what the other person is saying.
Sometimes they don't gather that

person is.
Completely no interest.

That menu has been there for the
last three years.

They could literally feel it.
They could literally feel that

the menu has been there for
three years.

It's not going to change for
another three years.

So I don't see the point why
some salespeople keep on going

to dabba and they don't simply
ask are you going to buy a

product?
Even more like polite way.

I literally asked that question,
Are you going to buy the

product?
Are you going to change the

menu?
This is a direct question.

You always really need to be
more creative on the way you

ask, but more on an open
question.

I've been a big fan of the
classic seven steps of the call.

I'm not sure if you ever seen
it.

I'm pretty sure you've seen it.
I always been a big fan of

warming up the conversation at
first to to warm up the person

you were in front of you.
Because you meet different, at

least you've meet different
people.

Everybody's different.
So you need to be able to warm

up that first.
Ask open question to gather as

many information as possible.
Let them talk.

And then based on what you the
information that you've gather,

one person might say, yeah, the
next Australian is changing in

January, right?
It's September.

We've got still three months.
Shall I come back in December?

When do you do your R&D?
These kind of questions are

important to actually get the
real opportunity and if that is

not a good timing straight away.
Put it in your calendar for the

next, I don't know, 3-4 months
to go.

Every bitch when there's when
it's a better time.

And don't you worry about asking
them when is a better time to

come back.
I understand.

This is not good.
It's not a good time.

And possibly during this time,
just go there, have a drink,

Don't even talk about your
brain.

Just go there.
Have a drink.

Show them your face.
Show them that you're

interesting to the bar.
Show them that you're a person

who actually goes out and likes
the bar.

And put a bit on the side, the
fact that you got your goals,

your targets to hit.
Sometimes it's more important

the chocolate on top of the
cappuccino rather than the

coffee itself that you put in
the cappuccino.

Sometimes it's the way you
present the situation than the

goal itself.
I'd be.

I'm a good friend with some bars
and some people in bars and they

never bought a bottle on my
product in the last five years

and.
It happens.

And then after when they move to
another venue, they put the

product in 3/4 without me even
asking.

So there is many different
dynamics in each part.

It's about your capacity to read
those dynamics and to prioritize

the one that eventually will
lead into an A listing in a week

or a listing in six months.
Both of them are important, you

just need to see when you need
to push harder or when you need

to.
The chocolate on top of the

cappuccino to sweeten the
passion.

And you're talking to the
account you're talking to and it

brings us back to the building
demand now like if you are doing

what you're doing right and you
focus on the long term of it,

although keeping into
consideration the short terms,

object objectives that you've
got, because of course you need

to hit the monthly target.
But if you do the things right

and it's going the right
direction, then maybe we are in

October now and then maybe what
you're doing today, it's going

to make April target easier for
you.

No, you may not get the October
one, but you know that you've

built something for April and
and then April is going to be a

little bit easier.
But then in April you're going

to work for the next September
kind of thing.

And it's about having that kind
of vision now that often we get

trapped into the I need to get
that menu today and you know

that drives the old conversation
into a different and and wrong

behaviors somehow.
No, you mentioned the cocktail

menus, that's a very hot topic
of mine.

What's your belief that all
companies are working with the

back bar, with the beverage
menu, with the cocktail menu and

so on and there is a lot of like
focus on that on on those kind

of elements.
What do you think is ultimately

the main driver to first of all
get into the menu and then is

that really the main driver of
sales or actually it's a little

bit overestimated in terms of
driver of sales?

So it really depends.
Again, it really depends on the

venue itself.
It really depends on the crowd

of the value.
So sometimes you must step into

place and you realize that
places.

Literally, bar calls is
literally people coming in or

the whatever they want.
They don't even look at them at

the menus.
If you go into a cocktail bar,

specifically a cocktail bar,
people go there because they

want to try what these guys are
capable to do.

If you go into a a gush or pub
or into a restaurant and you're

less likely probably to have a
look at the cocktail list

because you're more focusing to
into food.

So you would definitely look at
the food menu.

But you probably will not look
at the cocktail list.

You will, you will order a
classic.

If you want to have a cocktail,
you will order something which

is being promoted on the fruit
list.

So it's on my parity with like
one or two drinks that are on

top of the food list and catch
your eye and like, oh great, I

like this flavour.
So yes, cocktail menus are

important, not in all of the
venues, but also the structure

of how the cocktail menus is is
done.

It's important, I find myself a
lot.

Or people have been spoiled in
the last few years by big brands

that to the point that I stepped
into a venue and they say we

would love to be your non
alcohol partner.

We would love to have one or two
drinks in your list.

And they say yeah we charge 1002
thousand pounds for listing fee

for each drink.
I'm like great, that's

brilliant.
How many drinks would you do per

year?
How many bottles have you done

of non Alcoholics in a year or
something, something like that,

And they come back to you and
say, oh I don't know.

When you ask for those volumes,
they are like, I don't know, 80

bot to say or something like
that.

And then you do your quick maths
and you're like OK, how much

money am I going to lose in this
account?

Do I want to lose this money?
Why would I lose this money?

And sometimes those menus are
not even amazing for my specific

topic.
They put the none of colleagues

at the really end of the menu.
So you really need to gauge what

the structure of the menu is and
what.

People are, you know, are
ordering that menu and don't you

worry about asking them
literally, what's your best

selling cocktails?
Why are your best selling

cocktails?
It's fascinating because some

Martellus might say the best
selling cocktail is the espresso

martini.
But then you got to actually

look at data and you sit down
with a biomanager and the the

the data says completely
different because for some

reason they show more of their,
I don't know, strawberry dietary

sometimes what bartender says.
You're always true, but it's

what they perceive.
They they, they sell or what

they actually like.
So don't let yourself just

believe in what you hear from
one or two bartenders, but

actually get the right insights.
Yeah, so many.

It's important.
Definitely.

It really depends on the value
itself and don't be worried

about asking data from them.
That's one of the drivers of my

bottom up philosophy, so to say.
So it's let the the data but

let's not talk about like the
big data they can be there is

small data as well.
It can be like 5 bars there like

to to analyze and really
understand where the sales come

from.
Because you may also be

surprised you know because as
the bar manager you mentioned or

bartender may not actually know
it.

Like you may have a perception
of what sells most often is like

you think that one account is a
big account.

Actually it isn't or in in
neighborhoods is a big

neighborhood and then it's
lower.

With this brand.
I'm going to focus on short

ditch in London and then all of
a sudden all your sales come

from Clapham and the big
accounts are actually in

Clapham.
We need to always go back to the

data to analyze what actually
works and what doesn't work.

But you said it very rightfully.
There is always a a a tendency

not to do the homework before
entering the bar.

And and that is the biggest
mistake that I see sales people

do.
They go there and they don't get

an understanding versus where I
used to be like a sales guy

hitting the streets in Rome.
Now technology has moved on.

There were no Instagram pages,
there were no Facebook page.

There was no Google Maps.
There was literally like the

paper map going and navigating
in in the Rome streets and now

you can click on Google Maps and
see what they sell, what are the

keywords.
There's so much you can do

before you actually even step in
that bar.

Exactly, yeah.
You can literally go with the

Google Earth in front and seeing
the feature of the bar outside,

you can literally step into the
bar.

We are really lucky nowadays
because we got so many tools.

We got Internet, we got
Instagram.

We can see literally what that
bar is about or how that bar

wants to be perceived, which is
different.

Actually.
How the bar itself is and how

the bar wants to be perceived.
How the bar wants to be

perceived is probably what.
The Instagram looks like what

the messaging is, what the
website is about.

But then when you step inside
the bar is the the key and most

important thing.
So your homework are super,

super important.
Be prepared when you step inside

the bar.
Sometimes even though I've done

amazing research, I'll pretend I
don't know about the bar.

I don't know if it makes sense
because sometimes.

If you do so many homework, you
step into the bar and your

conversation leads you into what
you researched, but not

necessarily the yeah, the
marketing or the self of that

bar are linked to how the
bartenders act in that bar

itself.
So it's nice to get to gather

those information from a
different point of view.

But definitely the research is
super important.

You might discover that Venue's
goal, assist the venue that

venue's doing.
Events that the venue.

It's doing a big event, I don't
know for Chelsea Flower Show.

Just dig into their Instagram
and she walked down the year

before.
They're probably going to do it

again the year after.
I'm always doing this example to

sell people when we chat about
how to approach a venue.

How to research.
One of my first years I stepped

inside the hotel to try to sell
my product.

I did my research.
I knew it was an independent

hotel.
I went there with my.

Bottle or mixers spoke to the
bartenders.

They locked their for the
product and they agreed to stock

the products.
I went back to my boss and my

boss actors asked you all these
questions about how many rooms

is the hotel.
I'm like why are you asking this

question?
Do they have the restroom?

I don't know.
I'm like they said they will

buy.
Why are you still asking these

questions?
Because what he was trying to

say to me is look at the bigger
picture.

You need to look what the real
opportunities in that would they

be able to stock the product in
the mini bars.

Would they be able to start the
product in the restaurant?

Do they have banketing at the
basement, which you probably

never see when you step into an
hotel?

Nobody brings you around the
banker if you're just going

inside the bar in the lounge,
you know?

So it made me look at things in
a completely different way.

And obviously suddenly that
account will become from 10 KGS

a month to 100 cases a month
just in one go.

And that's really important,
especially when accounts

pretend.
To receive that commercial

support.
When they specifically asked for

that commercial support, you can
easily say, yes, I do this for

you, but do you do this for me?
I know you've got a massive

bunker in the basement.
I know you go 80 rooms with mini

bars and let's try to work on
that and getting the product in

that too.
So look at the bigger picture.

Definitely.
When you approach those

accounts, also think about
another thing that you spoke

about the perception like of the
venue and also how like like the

journey that they want to embark
on because for example like some

places are imagine like the
physical and digital that is one

of the aspects I I I was
discussing with some clients

like just a couple of days ago
you you see some venues that are

fantastic venues but their
digital presence is very bad and

vice versa you get some places
that they have totally nailed

their Instagram profile.
They look amazing and then

they're actually lazy and is
actually nothing special.

The drinks are nothing special.
They've got great pictures but

there's nothing special.
So sometimes it's also not only

what your brand can do in terms
of love and money.

I was discussing with Morris
Doyle like the emotional aspects

and the and the profit margins
kind of thing, but also like

from a strategic perspective
what you bring to the table now

because maybe they to your point
in non alcoholic imperative they

want to embark on a journey on
non alcoholic or knowing low and

they're not there yet, but they
could be a huge opportunity.

So if you only analyze it from
where they are today, you would

never go there to sell because
it's like this is a total waste

of time.
They've got nothing non

alcoholic that just sell Coke
and Fanta as a non alcoholic

offering.
But then when you sit and talk

to them maybe you will see.
So actually we're launching a

brand new non alcoholic menu.
We really want to push non

alcoholic low and no on it and
then you will be the enabler for

that transformation.
So you move the conversation on

a on a totally different level
from margins and I know the guys

or not to what I will be your
partner from a strategic

perspective and maybe you will
lose a little bit of money or

maybe we can do some events, we
can do something together to

really upscale your venue and
then you can reuse that case

study on another venue that
maybe was one of the objections.

No, like we don't need no now
And then next time, you know

what I I was talking to some
colleague of yours like a bar

and that's one of the things
that he was struggling with.

And then now he's one of the
biggest revenue by drivers.

He's actually known as Collie
cocktails.

And then all of a sudden you
overcome the objection by giving

a real example of somebody that
was not interested in the first

place.
It has happened in the past

where I stepped into valleys.
They don't even have an offer of

non Alcoholics and they say oh
we don't sell any non

Alcoholics, you don't even have
it on their menu.

You have have non alcoholic
cocktails, you're not even

offering them.
So yeah, I lie, this kind of

challenges and they definitely
moved in the last few years and

they moved into.
Interesting values where you can

have actually delicious Nora
colicopters.

So yeah, it's very important to
analyse what the value needs and

help them with the blog, with a
story or on Instagram to let our

audience know that there is a
new bar with promoting that Nora

colic or low and no less.
So yeah, this is all value which

goes beyond the money as you
were saying, which goes beyond

the commercial, the margin, the
GP, because I would rather sell

100.
Cocktails a day, 50% GP, then

six cocktails a day and 95% GP.
So when people actually over

your product is it costs exactly
the same as a house gin or your

products it costs more than our
house gin.

They're great yes, but how many
cocktails would you sell?

We we have proved so we have
data that we sell 2 1/2 times

faster than any other non
alcoholic spirit with one

wholesaler.
So this is already giving a

massive proof that when people
use Avalis in certain corpus

with our tools, with our help
they sell twice if not three

times faster than any other non
alcoli brand.

And the reason being because
most of those non Alcoli brands

probably are linked to a big
portfolio, a big company where

they don't, they don't really
have to focus on, they just say

OK, you mean the non alcoholic
in here off you got a gym.

When we actually all we need and
bring titties not our colleague,

let me ask you another question.
We spoke about London and the

focusing on one city and to
actually grow the brand now and

then you go at national level
and then you go at international

level.
How do you bring something that

is very British in that sense
because that's the home tour of

the brand, that's where it was
born.

That's where all the the the
initial network was and so on

and how do you export that know
how and that demand to another

country like Italy which is
totally different from habits

perspective.
Italy is an interesting market

because it's obviously much
smaller, much different than

than England in terms of
drinking habits, in terms of

volume, even overall spend per
person or the style is much

lower than the Adrian per
person.

The premiumization is there is
no.

Yet that makes sense with a
British product like Everleaf we

you probably know that in Italy
we look at British products or

American products in a way like
oh wow this comes from far which

comes from from England judicial
and English product and American

products.
So that sometimes could help but

a challenge in different markets
is that each market is specific

of their own consumers and and
non alcoholic outside of UK or

outside of US are still seeing
like something that's new to

discover.
So something that could be

challenging, the price could be
challenging at times in Italy

because you could easily buy an
apple of splits probably for

four or five EUR and on the
bottle of April for €7.00.

So it's it could be challenging
but that's why you in a new

market, you will start from top
to bottom in a way that you

start from there, facts or
applause, you start from there,

new Tremley cocktail bars where
they really sometimes copy and

paste.
What we are doing in England,

what we are doing in Singapore,
what we're doing outside of the

world.
As you were saying, yes, there

was a 50 bus and there is 5 bars
within the top 50 in the world

that in Italy, which is
fantastic.

So it's definitely grown.
It's definitely becoming trendy

as well, but there's still a lot
of work to do with awareness.

This is going back to what we
were saying before, because it's

an innovative product.
The thing is probably like

slightly different than if it
was another gin or a whiskey or

something that would be more
mainstream to the level of

adoption, not much in the price
point, but more in the adoption

curve.
Yeah, I feel like gin and tonics

are growing and growing in Italy
now.

When in England, for example,
was five years ago and the gins

and the climb in England and the
gins are up and the gin and

tonic is up in Spain and in
Italy.

So he will get there in a few
years.

I'm pretty sure he will get
there.

But yeah, at the moment it's
slowly getting there.

There is definitely awareness.
There is after the appetite, but

not there yet.
Let's talk about how can people

find you, Gaydano.
So I want to give you some space

finally on on where can they
find you your product or how

they can get in touch with you
and and so forth.

As a company we all have an
Instagram account and the

easiest thing to do is called
the Handle Everly and the name

of the person.
So my name, I shorten it to GT.

So Everly's GT on Instagram or
Gaitano or LinkedIn.

And then, yeah, And you can find
Evan If Drinks on our website to

discard a bit more about the
products.

And Evan If Drinks on Instagram
as well.

We got London Cup the Week this
week.

We have about 30 venues
showcasing our product.

So if you had a long run and you
want to hit some of those

fantastic bars, so you can find
them on London Cup the Week

website.
Yeah.

Thank you very much for your
time and thank you very much for

having me.
It's a real honor to be here.

Thank you, Chris.
Absolutely.

It was a great pleasure to chat
with you and despite the back

the background noise that we
managed to overcome somehow,

this is the beautiful thing of
stuff that in the entree you

cannot really plan, right.
Let's talk soon and hopefully I

will be able to see you soon
somewhere around Europe.

That's all for today.
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