Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
What if midlife isn't the beginning of getting old—but the beginning of something we haven't quite figured out yet?
Welcome to Second Opinion, where science meets real life in midlife.
Because the second half of life deserves a second opinion.
Hosted by Rosemarie Beltz—a cardiovascular perfusionist, Columbia-trained journalist, and former broadcast medical reporter with more than three decades inside operating rooms and high-stakes medicine.
Second Opinion brings together a career spent practicing medicine and reporting on it to explore health, longevity, reinvention, and the wonderfully complicated reality of being somewhere in the middle.
Because midlife is strange.
Some days you feel 25—curious, ambitious, optimistic, and convinced there's still so much ahead.
Other days? About 105. You're tired. Your body feels different. Your parents are getting older. Your career may not fit quite the way it once did. Relationships change. The future suddenly feels both incredibly exciting and a little more finite.
And somehow, all of those things can be true at the same time.
We're also living through an extraordinary moment. Medical discoveries, emerging technologies, and changing ideas about aging are reshaping what's possible in our 40s, 50s, 60s, and beyond.
We're talking about healthspan, hormones, metabolic health, strength, sleep, brain health, longevity, artificial intelligence, and treatments that barely existed a generation ago.
But more information doesn't always mean better answers and solutions.
After more than three decades working in medicine, Rosemarie has seen firsthand how asking another question, considering another perspective, or seeking a second opinion can change an outcome.
One expert doesn't have every answer. One approach doesn't work for everyone. And sometimes, the most important thing we can do is challenge what we've been told.
That's the philosophy behind Second Opinion.
We look beyond headlines, health trends, quick fixes, and conventional wisdom to explore what the evidence actually supports, where uncertainty remains, and what different choices might mean in real life.
And here's an even bigger question:
We may be living longer—but what are we going to do with all that extra life?
That's where the conversation gets really interesting.
Because midlife isn't just about our physical health. It's about our relationships, financial well-being, emotional health, careers, environments, changing priorities, and the lives we're still living and creating.
Through candid conversations with physicians, researchers, scientists, innovators, authors, and people with something meaningful to teach us, we explore the science, stories, decisions, and unexpected possibilities of midlife.
And sometimes Rosemarie turns the microphone on herself—sharing what she's learning from medicine, journalism, starting over, building something from scratch, and discovering that you don't necessarily become less curious about life as you get older.
Sometimes you become more curious.
What we're exploring:
- Health & longevity: Perimenopause, menopause, hormones, cardiovascular health, metabolic health, GLP-1s, sleep, strength, brain health, preventive medicine, and navigating healthcare.
- Relationships & connection: Dating after 40 and 50, love, sex, intimacy, friendships, family, and the relationships that shape our lives.
- Money, work & reinvention: Financial well-being, career transitions, entrepreneurship, confidence, changing priorities, and finding new purpose.
- Life beyond medicine: Mental and emotional well-being, beauty, technology, travel, our environments, personal growth, and finding more joy in everyday life.
This isn't about trying to be 25 again.
We can't go back. And maybe we don't want to.
We've lived. We've learned. We're not starting from scratch. We're starting with experience.
It's about taking everything we've learned, everything science is learning, and everything we still don't know—and exploring what might be possible from here.
Call it Midlife 2.0.
No perfect roadmap. No pretending we have it all figured out. Just smart conversations, good science, lived experience, a healthy dose of curiosity, and a willingness to look at things from another angle.
Because health matters. But being healthy isn't the whole point of living.
🌍 Independently created and produced in New York City, Second Opinion has reached audiences in more than 90 countries. A growing conversation for curious women and men who believe there's still so much more to discover.
And yes, Rosemarie is still figuring out what she wants to be when she grows up.
Real science. Real life. The bigger picture.
Second Opinion isn't here to tell you what to think. It's here to give you something worth thinking about!
Rosemarie - 00:00:04:
Welcome to Second Opinion. I'm Rosemarie Beltz, and if you've ever wanted a Second Opinion on some of the hottest topics in health and wellness, you're in the right place. Each episode, I sit down with experts, innovators, and even a few disruptors to bring you fresh perspectives on the issues that could change your life, from age rejuvenation and brain health to the weight loss drug revolution and how to reinvent your career. Together, we're going to dig into the latest research, question what's hype, what's real, and give you the insight you need to make your own choices about health and wellness. So, if you're ready for a Second Opinion that's engaging, enlightening, and maybe even a little unexpected, let's get started. Today, I am talking with the fabulous Dan O'Connor. Yes, I said fabulous, about something we may all have experienced, handling bullies both at work and in life. Dan is a renowned expert in communication. He is a best-selling author and a creator of an array of communication courses. For over 20 years, Dan has been empowering individuals and teams to navigate difficult interactions and reclaim their power. Known for his innovative approach to mindful, yet very tactical communication, Dan helps people shut down those toxic co-workers, narcissistic bosses, and rude employees while fostering meaningful relationships when that's desired. His courses and training and resources equip the 21st century professional with the tools they need to thrive in today's workplace and beyond. And there's some other very good credentials that I'm going to let Dan tell you himself, but I wanted to say first, thank you so much for being here today. I'm very excited.
Dan - 00:01:58:
Thank you, Rosemarie. It's a pleasure and it's an honor. I appreciate you having me.
Rosemarie - 00:02:03:
Thank you. Well, I'm going to start off first because I looked up the definition of a toxic person because I've personally have dealt with this. And many of my friends have dealt with this pretty much like we said, everyone has dealt with this. And I just thought it was interesting. It said, it's someone who brings conflict and negativity to your life. But for me and maybe so many other people listening or watching, it really felt like a lot worse than that. Um, just bringing negativity every day was just the minor, minor damage that came along with that. So you've been helping people communicate effectively for over 20 years. And I'm going to let you talk a little bit about who you've worked with, what you shared with me right before the pod, what inspired you to focus on handling these types of difficult people and bullies in your training?
Dan - 00:03:00:
Well, you know, it's... It was kind of happened as most things do that are important in life by accident where I started out giving conferences on technical analysis of the stock market, and I was a stockbroker at the time. And I thought that's what I was meant to do. And... When I went into audition for a company that was hiring for speakers, I went in thinking that I was going to go in for... Technical analysis of the stock market. And They told me, no, we're going to cast you in the communication role. And I'm like. No, because I was not an extrovert by nature. And I thought, no, I don't want to do that. But they saw that I was using communication tactics, which I was. Throughout their time with me. And they said, nope, that's what you're going to be doing. And I said, oh, okay. And so I started to help people who dealt with the same things that I did. And it was my mother when I was...
Rosemarie - 00:03:58:
Good old moms are our biggest advocate.
Dan - 00:04:03:
When I was really little, like in third grade, I had this. I had this bully named Stuart Stockmoe. And Stuart Stockmoe, who I've spoken to in recent years. So I'm going to tell you this and it's okay. Stuart Stockmoe was my, you know, school, schoolyard bully. And I would come home every day and be like, mom, and she'd say, my mother. My mother used to be a nun. And she, of course, she's not. She wasn't once she was my mother. But my dad was a Christian brother, a brother. And when I would come home, she was very like, you'd think of as like a non-school teacher. Because that's what she was.
Rosemarie - 00:04:36:
I was in Catholic school. Anyway.
Dan - 00:04:38:
Okay, you get it. I had my own nun. So I'd come home and she'd say, all right, what did he do today? And I'd say, well, okay. And I'd be embarrassed, as we all are, you know, to tell her like. It happened again. And so she Ask me what happened in the night. Tell her what happened. And then she'd say, okay. The next time he says that, you say this. And I'd say, okay. So she'd say, repeat that. And I'd have to repeat what she said. And if I didn't get it right, she'd say, no, not like that, like this. And so I'd repeat the things and then I would come back. And tell her how they worked and All of a sudden, I remember one day it worked. And so that was the beginning, now I realize, of my energy vampire slaying training. So I have to give it all to my mom because she really, she was the one, to this day, to this day, she's still saying, repeat that. No, no, not like that. Repeat after me and I'll have to repeat after her. I'm very grateful for her. But that's, in a real nutshell, that's how I got into this.
Rosemarie - 00:05:31:
I love it.
Dan - 00:05:31:
First my mom, then they cast me in the role.
Rosemarie - 00:05:35:
Wow. So this was all, I love how it's really organic. You know, good old childhood traumas always get us to where we're supposed to be. My journey, yeah, same between health, you know, you do one thing, but you know, you're born to do something else. And eventually you have to go through something then to get you where you're supposed to be, share your, your message with the world. And that's how it, it translated for you and it unraveled. And so it's super authentic, which came across in your videos, which is why eventually that's, I used your videos.
Dan - 00:06:10:
Exactly. Yeah, I'm just spreading the word because it's something that I've always struggled with.
Rosemarie - 00:06:15:
And many people do. And I love your authenticity and your transparency.
Dan - 00:06:20:
Thank you.
Rosemarie - 00:06:20:
You're welcome. And with that, I'm going to read some stats because it's always good to have statistics. So according to a workplace bullying survey from 2021, overall, about 50% of Americans have suffered abusive conduct at work. The prevalence of bullying has increased almost 60% in the last decade. So. That number is a lot. And then also 50% are affected by it and 66% are aware that it's actually happening.
Dan - 00:06:57:
How many percent are aware that it's actually happening?
Rosemarie - 00:06:59:
66.
Dan - 00:07:02:
Wow. The rest are unaware.
Rosemarie - 00:07:05:
Yeah, they're unaware. And what was startling to me was that, one, how it's increasing, how much, and also how many people are, they watch it, but then they also feel like they can't do anything about it as well. Right? We get in this cycle because I know even in my work environment where other people were aware, but it's like that you don't really want to get involved because you could be next or you've already dealt with it too. Right? And so with that, all these numbers... Why do you think, I always like to get to the root cause of things, but I mean... Why? You know, what do you think is going on here? And what over the last few years, and it's even more prevalent, it seems like when any even catastrophe or major, unfortunately, event happens. Somebody was bullied.
Dan - 00:08:02:
You know, it's... Because of the recent political landscape and how it's changed without becoming political, because I know this isn't a political show.
Rosemarie - 00:08:10:
Of course.
Dan - 00:08:10:
I, I saw a definite change in like overnight in the in the way people treated one another at work, starting about 10 years ago, more or less, you know, eight to 10 years ago.
Rosemarie - 00:08:23:
Okay, about a decade, okay.
Dan - 00:08:24:
I understand that it's, so that's one thing. I just, I think the political landscape and... When I say the politicals, I don't just mean our politicians. I mean the news, the way we discuss politics, the way we are relating to one another in a political sense. And the way it's like taken over as if that's the only thing we are, you know, if we have certain views. And so it gives everybody permission, it seems, to either hate, ostracize. Bully one another. And it's just all of a sudden people started doing that about eight to 10 years ago, much, much, much more than before. I mean, it's just. Overnight, you could see a big difference. And I think regarding people watching it, I always try to tell people, if you're witnessing something that you know is not right. It is very powerful. To stand up and leave. You know, our presence is sending a message that we're going to tolerate whatever is going on. And if all you can do is stand up and walk out of the room. That's at least a message that you're sending that I'm not going to be party to this. Or if you have, in addition to that, if you have the words to say something such as... I can't be party to this, you know, or I will not participate in this because it is true. We tend to make excuses for ourselves, but if we are witnessing something, and I understand that whole, if we stand up for somebody, if we walk out of the room, all of a sudden we could be the next target. And I understand we have bills to pay. You know, we have families to take care of. And we have other issues apart from that in our brain. I get that, but... If We are witness to it and let it go, that You know, the worst thing about it, as you know, Rosemarie, if you've dealt with it. If I'm being bullied from somebody, They aren't the ones that I am. Dreaming about, that I'm thinking about when I go to sleep at night. I'm thinking about the people who stood by and watched it happen. It's those faces, the ones where I thought, you know, I thought you were my friend and you stood there and you thought and you let it happen. That's even worse, you know. So I'd encourage people to at least not lend their presence. To the crime at hand because that is Even worse sometimes, right?
Rosemarie - 00:10:37:
Yeah, because then you question, well, I don't get it. This person knows this. Why are they? Then you question everything. Then you start to really question everything.
Dan - 00:10:48:
You question your own sanity and your own belief system. I think that's why gaslighting has become such a big topic these days, because that's the worst, when all of a sudden we're starting to question our own sense of reality and our own sanity. And people will do things to encourage. That feeling in us. And it's horrible. That's a horrible feeling. It's terrible.
Rosemarie - 00:11:10:
And to circle back around what you were saying. So basically it's almost like. Yes, without getting into politics, because this is health.
Dan - 00:11:18:
Right.
Rosemarie - 00:11:19:
But they are connected to your health.
Dan - 00:11:21:
Sure.
Rosemarie - 00:11:23:
But it seems like just what has been accepted from everyone is that anyone can say anything at any time without any kind of consequence.
Dan - 00:11:35:
Yeah.
Rosemarie - 00:11:35:
Anything.
Dan - 00:11:37:
Right.
Rosemarie - 00:11:38:
There's no consequence. It's almost like, and then it, it, it, it spills over to then everything that we're doing. So I get, I just, so when people are listening, that's what you were trying to get, to get your point across. It's just like, that's like the green light, like it's okay. Then I don't feel this way. Yeah. All of a sudden.
Dan - 00:11:57:
I can say whatever I want. Yeah, and no matter how unloving it is, no matter how unhurtful it is, It doesn't make any sense. We're all of a sudden.
Rosemarie - 00:12:07:
Yeah. I was like, where is this coming from? Was it COVID? Because everybody was felt like there was all of a sudden like an imaginary wall there. There wasn't, you know, any kind of contact. So it's like I'm hidden behind either my phone or my screen or I don't know what it was, but I was in I'm in health care. So I was at work during COVID. So those people have no excuse.
Dan - 00:12:27:
I saw and I was I was thinking about that, how you were right. You were right there dealing with the worst of the worst. And that must have been very difficult because then you had people, I'm sure, telling you what you were seeing wasn't really happening.
Rosemarie - 00:12:41:
Right. So we've got that. Dan, we can talk about that on a whole other show.
Dan - 00:12:45:
I'm sorry. Yes. Right. Right.
Rosemarie - 00:12:47:
But yeah. But the gaslighting, I mean, there were so many things. Like it kind of goes into gaslighting. No, this is my reality. It kind of comes back to that again. And it happens. I don't know what it is, but like you said, it's more apparent than ever where people are now saying, did you see that? I was just gaslit into that task. That's not even my job. How am I doing that person's job? That's not even, and I'm gaslit into it. You're tricked. I'm like-
Dan - 00:13:18:
You're tricked. Yes, it's that perfect storm. I was insulted. And I think for some reason, it's not just politics. I think for some reason, it's as if we have had a perfect storm. You know what I think it is, Rosemarie? What? I think you'll probably agree with me. I think. I really believe, although people say this throughout the show, history. I think right now we are at a point in our evolution, where we are evolving into something else as a species, you know? And I think in part of that is going to be. That's You know when, do you remember, you know the movie The Fly? Do you remember seeing The Fly? Okay, you know, like.
Rosemarie - 00:13:58:
I'm that old.
Dan - 00:13:59:
Me too, yeah. You know, when the fly's about to evolve, it kind of goes through that metamorphosis process.
Rosemarie - 00:14:08:
Yes.
Dan - 00:14:08:
And it feels like we're just testing. It's like the last, that's what it is. It's like the last of the dinosaurs. Are screaming and howling because they need to say that. Nasty thing or do that nasty thing before, thank goodness, I think we're about to go into a whole new evolutionary level. Because you know how, you know, they say that we are about to, like my nephew, they say that he's about to have the option to live like a thousand years with AI and all of the things that we have available to us.
Rosemarie - 00:14:34:
Yes.
Dan - 00:14:35:
I just can't. So that's my positive viewpoint, is that I think. It's okay that we are just expressing the very last of the worst of us because we're about to leave it behind.
Rosemarie - 00:14:46:
Yeah, it's like one big experiment. Yeah. I mean, I'm thinking this is really provoking, thought-provoking. That was a great thing that you said, because even when you just look at people, even how we communicate, it's weird for even somebody to call you. Even at work, when you're getting a passive-aggressive, it's either an email or a text message. It's not like they've come to your desk or they're doing it from a device.
Dan - 00:15:15:
That's, you know, that's a huge part of it, I'm sure. Yeah, that's it. Is that all of a sudden. That's we people can hide behind. That's it. I haven't thought about that in a while, but it's true. We are. Now we are at a place where the whole generation of communicators are used to being able to say things anonymously and hide behind the internet. And all of a sudden we're dealing with these snipers, you know, at work.
Rosemarie - 00:15:39:
Yeah.
Dan - 00:15:39:
And. These situations that we just didn't deal with before, I guess. And you're right. And people are emboldened in a different way. They think since they've seen this bullying online, which was so easy to do. They're now doing it in person. So I think it's the evolution of a lot of things.
Rosemarie - 00:15:54:
Yeah.
Dan - 00:15:54:
Well, you're provoking my thought process.
Rosemarie - 00:15:56:
Oh, good. Well, I'm going to stay tuned for your next video. I'll be looking out for that. All right. With all these numbers, I'm going to throw some more at you. So adding to those stats, statistically, women face bullying and toxic behavior more often in the workplace.
Dan - 00:16:12:
Mm-hmm.
Rosemarie - 00:16:13:
Why do you really think that this disparity exists? And how can women empower themselves? I will tell you all of my bullies in life from Stuart years ago. Mine was Kelly. God bless Kelly, wherever she is. I think she's in the Midwest somewhere now. But anyway, maybe she'll listen one day. Anyway, women bullies bully women.
Dan - 00:16:39:
Yeah.
Rosemarie - 00:16:40:
As twice the rate they bully men.
Dan - 00:16:44:
Oh, yeah.
Rosemarie - 00:16:47:
So, I mean, I know there's a lot of things that I just rattled off here, but what are your thoughts on the women being more bullied, women bullying women, and how can women empower themselves?
Dan - 00:16:59:
Well, I know that that's true because when I, I did not know. Extent to which women would bully each other until I started doing speaker training. And I would train different speakers how to be more effective. And when... I was reading the reviews of the first woman speaker that I have ever trained. I couldn't, I had no idea. You know, when you read it, you could read it. You've, I'm sure, had reviews from, you've spoken and seen reviews. Okay, so, you know, I could read a thousand of my reviews as a man. And. I mean, I'm always shocked at how people do not throw rotten tomatoes and stuff because there's a lot you could pick at with me, you know, and throw stuff. But in terms of physical things like it doesn't happen with men. Then I started reading a woman's reviews. I couldn't believe it. Like starting from the very first one, her panty lines were showing the whole time and it was distracting. You know, she needs to wear a bra. Her hairstyle, you know, it's all this personal. Horrific attacks, which mostly came from women. And I was just clueless as to as to what was going on until that moment. And I remember I was really, really sad. I mean, it was... It was difficult to think, oh, my gosh, that's the type of thing you have to deal with all, you know, apart from everything else. But I think because. This is just my opinion. I believe that it's because. You know, when we only have one relationship, you know, we have a relationship. With ourselves and with our maker and with everyone else on the planet. And it's all really the same thing. And if we're not. Good with that. I think it's kind of a vicious cycle. Women are taught. To judge themselves so harshly that then they judge other women because it's the same relationship, the same way. And they think, you know, just, just as men do, by the way, but in different areas. Well, I have to deal with it. Now you're dealing with it. And I just think that it's. It's easy to say and to sit here and rationally think. That that woman is saying what she's saying to another woman because that's how she feels about herself. And, you know, it's easy to tell somebody, hey, that's not about you. It's about her. So don't take it personally. But when it's coming personally at you. I think you have to be really vigilant in, I think we all do, but especially women, I think, have to be vigilant in things such as... And I know you're going to say, I know, but you may think this is total cornball. But I used to I used to think things like affirmations were ridiculous. You know, I used to think all I could think of was Stuart Stockmoe you know, when he would look in the mirror. Do you remember that? And I like myself. That's what I thought it was. I'm good enough.
Rosemarie - 00:19:31:
Yes, I'm worth it.
Dan - 00:19:33:
Now I get it. I get it how we are sent messages. Constantly all day long telling us that we would be okay if we did this or we were you know, we would be worthy or we, until we're thin, until we're this, whatever it may be, we're just sent messages constantly saying, if you do this, you may be more whole, but you're not whole. You're not good. You're not worthy. And if we don't take the time to send ourselves messages. Literally, you know, by affirmations and telling ourselves who we are, there's that person inside of us that's like, hey, if I'm only hearing that and you're not even standing up for me, well, then I guess that must be true. And so I think that is kind of what's happening is. I don't think... We were as nasty to one another as we are today before. I just think marketing and the way we can, the way we are able now to sit in, because of cell phones and all of the internet and all of that. We receive so many messages so fast all day long, and so many of them, the vast majority are negative. I think that just comes out. I think if people protected themselves and the messages that they hear more and told themselves. Truth of the matter and paid more attention to that person inside. It would help uh... But, I think that women in particularm receive so many of those messages all day long, I can't imagine how it could not possibly come out and be directed towards other women. It would be, it's only logical.
Rosemarie - 00:21:01:
So really just even comes along with like emotional intelligence. Some people, because. I could feel a certain way, but like you were saying, I'm not going to project that on somebody else where somebody else, they just keep coming at you. And it is hard because even though you are self-aware when you are even that type of person, there's only really so much you can take. So basically you're saying, just that's it. You have your limits. And like you're saying, just realizing, you know, maybe walk, even try to walk away, I guess, if you can. I don't know. It's such a, it's just like a slippery slope because it's either you confront the person.
Dan - 00:21:38:
A slippery slope.
Rosemarie - 00:21:40:
It is like you either confront them or you, you know, it's like, how do you, I don't know, but I guess you're saying to like, just really work on yourself, which is why I liked your video. Cause really you're, you're really focused on basically just, you can't control others. You can only control yourself and how you respond. I feel like I'm getting the message.
Dan - 00:21:59:
But I do think it's very important. For example, at, at work, to have the right words to be able to tell somebody, hey. You and I don't have the type of intimate relationship, so I don't know what I did to make you think that, but we do not. And to let people know, hey, but of course we have to then make sure we are not engaging in the type of intimate. Communication. I just went through a, I just, I just. Rosemarie, I accidentally released a book that I was working on on Amazon. And I was just using it kind of like the – I don't know if you've ever self-published or anything like that. But I was in there using their kind of tools. And the next thing you know, I – accidentally released this book, which was not finished, but it's called The Rules and it's now available on Amazon. And it's in the top 20 of its category. I was very impressed with that since it was an accident. But if you look at that, I have rules there, which really kind of help remind us all. There are just 10 rules, but you have to... Like go into work and remember certain things. I can't be familiar with you because then how am I supposed to... When you, if somebody crosses the line, holds you to a standard that I'm not holding myself to. And I have to recognize, you know, we don't have a personal relationship. And if I can have the right words to remind other people, that helps. If I can take time in the morning to remind myself of who I am, why I'm here and what I want, that helps. If I can have loving relationships and remind myself, you know, that, you know, instead of worrying about... Not being weak or, you know, people will ask me frequently. Is that a sign of weakness if I say this or do that? And I have to remind people the opposite of weakness is love. And so if you just focus on being loving, that is going to really... Solve the vast majority of our problems, but we have to be loving with ourselves and with everyone else on the planet. My point is... I think. All, like you were saying, it's a slippery slope. And once we think we have it down, comes a new master teacher to show us, ha, you thought you had it. You thought you were a master of your dominion. Well, watch this. And I think that that's kind of like our curse and our blessing. If we take time to try and be better, you know, just a more perfect reflection of who we know we are. We're constantly going to be challenged. And I think in my own life, and I'm sure in your life, when I decide, okay, my goal is I'm not going to let that person get to me now, or I'm going to over... Once you think you've accomplished the goal, up comes the next master teacher who's going to be much, much more difficult. But it's for my own benefit. And we might get it wrong 99% of the time. But if we have some tools and invest in ourselves, if I can get it right twice tomorrow. I'll take that and just take one step. You know closer to the to the loving version of myself that I know I'm trying to be. It's not about being perfect and we will feel bad and we need somebody in our life to remind us of what's real. Little by little, if we take little steps, I think that's... What in the end creates those people at work where you're like, wow. Nothing seems to get to them. They are always on point. They always have the answers. Nobody can rattle their cage. And it seems like it's natural and effortless. It's just because they worked at it for so long, you know? And I think that's what we need to do. Just take one little step today, one little step tomorrow, and we'll be that person. And then I think, Rosemarie, you know what it's like? You were talking about your niece. What is her name?
Rosemarie - 00:25:35:
Oh, there's, I've got two have been throwing that, who went through this. Layla and Evelyn. Evelyn's the seven-year-old and Layla's the 12-year-old.
Dan - 00:25:46:
Oh, I think it was Evelyn. I'm not sure.
Rosemarie - 00:25:49:
Yes, it was Evelyn.
Dan - 00:25:50:
Yes?
Rosemarie - 00:25:51:
Yes. Seven years old.
Dan - 00:25:52:
Okay, that's the, you know how when they will tell you. How you have inspired them. And they'll, they'll, when they, they'll say something just little, didn't mean a whole lot, but they'll be like, it reminds you that you are inspiring them. And it just, it takes your breath away and it makes, you know, like everything so worthwhile. I think those those will get more of those if we. Are the people that we are trying to be. As much as we can, you know? And we'll get our fuel for the next battle. In those comments from your nieces. You know what I mean?
Rosemarie - 00:26:28:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, that was really helpful and I really liked those tips. So thank you for that.
Dan - 00:26:34:
You bet.
Rosemarie - 00:26:35:
Very clear and helpful. And okay. So I'm going to kind of go back into the employment landscape again. Why do you think that it's not getting it? I mean, I know. Personally, many people, they don't feel like it's getting addressed. Even though we go through sensitivity training and we all go through this at a professional, even at high levels, you know, we still have to go through those types of training, but it's not. It's almost like... They don't want to hear it. I don't know. We do have a lot of other businesses at hand that we have to attend to, but I don't know.
Dan - 00:27:09:
It's like people use that training to do what they want to do, but get around The Rules.
Rosemarie - 00:27:14:
Yes. Well, and it's also, you know, it's like things, even if you think something's anonymous, people don't think it's anonymous. But I don't know. I don't know if this for HR, anybody in HR listening, that kind of landscape. But people, it's really not. It runs rampant, especially in health care. I don't want to down health care because I work with a lot of amazing people. But I know it's everywhere. I worked in news as well. But I don't know. And being the boss is... The bully. So it just says 52% of non-management employees, 40% of managers. So.
Dan - 00:27:55:
True.
Rosemarie - 00:27:57:
40% of managers That is a lot. I mean, do you have any thoughts on that, how to deal with that specifically?
Dan - 00:28:05:
If it's your manager who is bullying you?
Rosemarie - 00:28:07:
Yeah. And maybe an example of how to, maybe something, maybe this even example, like any advice or an example, how you can diffuse something like this without escalating it.
Dan - 00:28:20:
Yes. First, I'd like to mention I'm with you when what I've noticed is I have a lot of clients who are nurses. And there's something about professions that care for other people. Teachers, nurses are the top two toxic work environments that I know of. And I just, I don't know exactly what it is, but I know. That if you're in a profession where you're caring for others, And it's a high stress, especially with teachers now, what they're dealing with. There's just something about that that makes kind of behind the scenes people take out. Their aggression on each other. I've noticed that it's a particularly... Difficult profession nurses when it comes to communication and toxic co-workers.
Rosemarie - 00:29:05:
Yeah.
Dan - 00:29:05:
So that's, you're not imagining that, that's the way it is? And, um, In terms of if it's your manager or your boss, number one thing. I was just thinking about that last night. You have to have. Freedom in your we get a financial freedom And it. That's a different thing to everybody else, you know? But if you don't have... Financial freedom. And that just means for most people, six months income in the bank, you know? Uh... And and you're confident in your abilities and your skills and your reputation and all of that. So it all kind of comes, you know, goes together. But if you don't have that... Freedom that comes with knowing I don't need you. All of a sudden, this is just first of all, and I'll get to some specific what to say, but I think that if you... If you have that, If you have that knowing. Where I know that I don't need to be here, all of a sudden what you thought were the challenges and the problems. And the energy vampires that are coming at you, they just fall away. And it's all of a sudden, it's because of when you need that paycheck at the end of the week. And the problems that you believe you're having, those are like level one problems. And when all of a sudden you go up a level, meaning I just, I'm now here because I'm choosing to be here, what I thought was important, and these people who were coming at me, all of a sudden they're not coming at me anymore. And these things that I thought I was gonna have to deal with or that I was gonna say once I reached level two. I don't even, I don't remember what they were because now I have level two problems and they're totally different. But, you know, they might be bigger, but they're different. And now it's, I'm choosing to be here. And so if you don't have that, you know what it's, maybe you don't, but I know what it's like where you need that, right? And you can't say what you want to say because you need something. And that is such a horrible feeling, right? I mean, it's, it's, and you're telling yourself. That this is who you are. And so you have to get out of that situation as quickly as possible if you're in it. And then when you are dealing with that, for example, if it's your boss or your manager. Once you pass that level, then it shouldn't make any difference. And I would speak to them just as I would basically anybody else because we don't share an intimate relationship where I'm going to have to worry about your feelings. It's more about processes. Than it is about people where if you crossed a line or said something to me. And you're my boss or my manager, I should be able to call you out on that. And let you know in the same way as I would anyone else, because you don't hold anything over me anymore. You know, if I don't get what I'm looking for here, then I know. I'm secure in myself and my abilities and my finances where I can go someplace else. And it's okay. It's not even a confrontational situation anymore. Like I would think to myself, if you're my boss. Oh, you know, bless your heart. They say, you don't know how inappropriate it is to say something like that to me. But in terms of. If I need to, let's say that I'm in a situation where my boss, my manager crosses the line. I think it's really important for people to have verbal patterns that help them express what's in our brain. What's in their brain, because you know how, you know, Rosemarie, when you get. Emotionally charged. I don't know if you're, we, when we are emotionally charged, we either speak a lot or we can't find any words at all. I don't know if that's, if you, if which side you tend to be on.
Rosemarie - 00:32:44:
I've been both.
Dan - 00:32:45:
Okay. So you know how they say, you know, there's a lot of different brain studies these days that say different things, but. Basically, what I believe to be true is there's the left-hand side of the brain and the right-hand side of the brain. And in the right-hand side of the brain, we keep emotions. In the left-hand side of the brain, we keep language. And you, especially as a healthcare professional, you know that's where the language is. When people have strokes, that's where it goes away. But when we are emotionally charged, it draws us out of where our words live. And so if you don't practice in advance verbal patterns so that you can speak automatically in those situations, chances are what's going to come out is not going to serve you. So you know how like, do you have any military in your family, Rosemarie?
Rosemarie - 00:33:25:
Yes.
Dan - 00:33:26:
Okay. So you know how, are you military?
Rosemarie - 00:33:30:
I'm not, but my brother was a Marine. My father, all my uncles, they've all served.
Dan - 00:33:35:
Okay. Oh, your brother is a Marine. Oh, yes.
Rosemarie - 00:33:37:
Yes.
Dan - 00:33:38:
My dad too. So you know how they learn to... Take apart their gun and put it back together. And they keep, I guess they do that all the time.
Rosemarie - 00:33:46:
Yes, yes.
Dan - 00:33:46:
So it becomes automatic. And the reason is because... When you need to do that, if you ever need to do that, you know, clear jam or put refuel or whatever you call that, you can't stop and think about it because it's going to be a high-risk situation. So it has to be automatic, automatic. So that's why they keep practicing that. And so if the same principle applies where when we find ourselves in these situations, so many of us were thinking off the cuff and whatever comes into our brain is what we say. And that is guaranteed going to be like the worst thing we could say in those moments because our brain is flooding us with drugs to help us either run away real fast or punch him in the face. You know, neither one of those things are good options. So if I in advance practice saying things. Like my verbal patterns for if you, if your boss. If your boss is going to be nasty to you and it's just one time, then it's one time. So I would stop and be like, you know. What's going on with you? Something is different because you don't normally talk to me this way. That's one thing. If it's all the time, well, then you have time to prepare for time number two or three. And so I would get those verbal patterns. Ready for when you are going to need them. Something, for example, we always need good lead-in lines. And lead-in lines are going, they could be something such as... Like if you were my boss, I might just say something like... Rosemarie. And when you, I like to have props when I'm communicating because some of us, some of us like myself, I get nervous with my hands and I don't know what to do with them. So if I have something that I can grab onto, that really helps me feel more confident. And then. If you use somebody's name and... Lean towards them and look them in the eye when you're getting ready, when you're leading into the conversation, that tends to break the cycle, like the pattern. And if you can break the pattern of what they're used to and get them to listen to you, it's amazing what you can find out. So for example, if I were to say Rosemarie. Generally speaking at If I'm going to be calling my boss out on their behavior, I want to repeat back to them what they said. So that they're aware of what I'm talking about. You just said, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then... So that's step number one and two. You want to get used to practicing, you know, like having a good lead in line or a good starter phrase could just be their name and then repeating back to them what they just said. And then number three could be you could ask them a question. It could now, you know, Rosemarie, as an investor, you're not just a reporter, you're an investigative reporter as well, right? Right.
Rosemarie - 00:36:16:
And health care. Yeah.
Dan - 00:36:17:
Okay. So you know how like those questions really make all the difference. You know, the way you ask questions, that's. That's, it's imperative that you know the difference between, you know, even just the basics, open-ended and closed-ended questions. I would not, for example, if it's my boss. I would not, I haven't thought about this in a while. I would not say something such a, I wouldn't ask an open-ended question to get a conversation going. But I might simply ask them something like, are you aware that when you said this? This happens. Are you aware that's what you just said to me? And.
Rosemarie - 00:36:53:
Oh, wow.
Dan - 00:36:54:
You know, even if you can... When you ask somebody, for example, Mark, Mark. You just said X, Y, Z. Are you aware that you just said that to me? At that point, most people will be like, Oh my gosh, I wasn't aware. You know, I apologize. And then you can forgive them because we all make mistakes and move along. Sometimes it's as okay, so, you know when people say nasty things they can almost never repeat it. You know, it's very difficult for people to, like if you were to say. I'm not sure I got that correctly. Could you repeat what you just said? The average person can't do that, and at least they know. Like, if this seems to be becoming a pattern, I might start with little... Things like that, you know, holding people to account and asking them. If it's good enough for you to say once, let's see if you can say it again. And they tend... They tend to check themselves. And the thing more than anything else that I want to keep in mind when I'm dealing with my boss or when I'm dealing with my supervisor or manager. If I took the time in the morning to tell myself who I am and why I'm here and what I want, you know, we have to have that compass. If If I reminded myself constantly throughout the day of why I'm here and what I really want, then when that person needs to be reminded of. Who they are or what they're doing here. Maybe they're not aware of the behavior that they're engaging in. If I can come to it from a place where I'm not angry as much as I am. Trying to help you because, you know, we're all in this boat together, but it looks like you. Are a little bit lost right now. Even if it's directed towards me, that is not serving you. And keep that mindset. Than the verbal patterns. Come out much more easily. So I would do things, I would... Always have a good opening line. You know, even if it's just using their name, and a good question, repeat back to people what they say, that helps buy some time. I might narrate the scene, you know, like, like, John, here we are sitting in a... Conference room talking about business plans. And instead of talking about the issue at hand. You're talking about my blah blah blah Do you understand that's what you're doing? You know, you might just want to check people, you know, let them check themselves by narrating the scene. And it's, I say that because a lot of times we can't find the words. If this is new to somebody, it's very difficult to speak up at all. And we get so nervous that we get tongue tied. Just look around and say what's going on. You know, that's all you have to do. Explain to somebody what you see going on. That helps you get words out. Different verbal patterns. Help you get words out if it's not so stressful. But let's say, you know, you're... You're defending your position. You know, you know, as you know, like the field belt found those types of things. So those types of things help buy you some time and maintain the floor and build your confidence. Because I think. That's a huge deal as we feel. If you're not used to, you know those people who are like. What is it? I'll tell him. I'll tell him. It doesn't bother me. I'll tell him anything. There's always one person at work because they're so used to it. If you're not used to it, it's really difficult. So start small, but just remember to be. Loving. And when I say that, I don't mean... I was just talking to somebody last night. And he was... We have to decide where our relationships are going. You know what I mean? Like we have to, there's. Many times, like we were talking about now, if it's your boss or your supervisor, sometimes we have to decide. Where this relationship is going to go. And Sometimes when I tell people to, you know, just whatever you do, be loving. They think that I'm saying... Stay, be loving, let people walk all over you. Sometimes the most loving thing that I can do is to show you what somebody who loves himself looks like when I walk that way and you stay here. But I can do that. In a way that's loving. You know, like I watched my, I have to tell you, I have to tell you Rosemarie, my parents.
Rosemarie - 00:40:58:
I love this.
Dan - 00:41:00:
My mom and my dad, I told you a little bit about them, but they, they. But I'm trying to not say too much. My mom and dad, like most people, head Got divorced. And my mom felt very guilty about many things that happened in their relationship. That she thought contributed to the divorce. By the end of their life, my mom, her new husband, and my dad lived together until the day my dad died as three best friends. And nobody ever thought that would have been possible because the one, my mom's new husband. Was the man that she had a relationship with and she was with my dad. And it was, for most people, inconceivable that they would ever be able to reconcile. But what they did was... They showed how Love can take so many different forms. But the substance, if you're careful with it, can keep growing and getting better every single day. We don't know what it's going to look like. But if you just try to focus on whatever you do. You know, as you leave her, be loving to her, or as you quit this job. Do it in a way that's loving, you know, and it will never, ever, ever. It will always serve you. Always, always. No matter what blunders you make when you, and that was a big turning point for me when I realized. I don't have to say things perfectly as long as I say things. Where my grandmother would be proud. Then I can say whatever I want and I don't have to worry about it so much. You know what I mean? And you can get the word out.
Rosemarie - 00:42:28:
So, no, you said, first of all, you gave so many great takeaways as far, well, examples, one, you know, how circumstances and some examples that people could, and then some actual steps. I just want to go into a little bit about your courses. Is this a lot about some of the things that you teach in some of your, because I know you're, what I do, like, and I said this before, it's all about reclaiming joy and peace and, you know, discovering all these. How do you help people rediscover those things after dealing with toxic people?
Dan - 00:43:01:
Oh. I see like, let's say that they've like left their job and their career basically?
Rosemarie - 00:43:07:
Yeah, I actually chose to leave and go to a sister hospital because it was just easier. And so did other people. But yeah, so how do you maybe recover those things?
Dan - 00:43:17:
Yeah. Well, You know, I think I'm not, my specialty is not, for example, helping people. I'm not a therapist. So I wish I were, but. I have noticed that people find a lot of transformation in this type of training. And I think it's because... We have to forgive ourselves. I have a process for everything. Like, I mean, if I'm going to tell somebody I'm sorry or thank you or I love that, whatever, I have to know. This is the way my brain works. I need to know what the steps are. And, I think if we can... Forgive ourselves for... Whatever happened in the past and how we did or did not deal with it. Correctly. You know, we tend to carry all of these things. And we make everything like a... You know, we drag things down to such a... That's such a... Terrible level sometimes. You know, we have all of this shame and this guilt and this... We carry these things that we should not be carrying. Because we make mistakes, you know?
Rosemarie - 00:44:28:
Yeah. Yeah.
Dan - 00:44:29:
First of all, I know that If you, for example, where you left when you left your hospital, I'm sure it wasn't you. I'm sure it was them. But. When we carry things, it's because we're not able to forgive. Either ourselves or somebody else. And I think. When we practice forgiving, whether it's, okay. I think forgiveness is like the key.
Rosemarie - 00:44:51:
You know, I get what you're saying with this. But I feel you're saying forgiveness is the key. And that's because I was going to say, basically, that's almost the first step that somebody can really take.
Dan - 00:44:59:
Yeah.
Rosemarie - 00:44:59:
Become more confident in their own communication and work or personally.
Dan - 00:45:05:
That's it. And I think if the way to do that, people will ask me, well, how do you practice being forgiving to yourself? What you do is you practice forgiving. All the time. Like when you are, if you, we tend to be one or the other. We will either be able to forgive everybody else but not ourselves. Or we forgive ourselves for everything but not anybody else. Everybody else, you know, we hold grudges. But Whatever it is. If you Say, today I'm going to practice being forgiving. I'm going to forgive that person at the grocery store who budged in line. And I'm truly going to forgive them. I'm going to forgive the person who cut me off when I was speaking. I'm going to forgive myself when I made a mistake. If you practice little by little, it is just like any other skill where all of a sudden you become more forgiving and it's easier to recognize because, you know, your brain goes through the process of why – because you have to justify to yourself. Why am I going to forgive you? Well, because you didn't know and because you're – whatever the reasons are. When you start small and you just keep doing it over and over again. Guaranteed, because I've seen this so many times, you will be able to, one day you'll wake up and be like, oh my God, I'm a different person now because that's...
Rosemarie - 00:46:11:
It's like a habit.
Dan - 00:46:12:
It is a habit and it is the only thing. I was looking up the definition of forgiveness recently. To give. When I looked it up. Means you are expecting something in return. And I found that interesting. But when we give something, the definition of it originally was, I have some expectation of some type of return. The only thing that we can give that we do not have an expectation. Of return is forgiveness. And I thought, oh, that's it. It truly... It truly transforms who you are. In a way that nothing else can. And so if you're looking for a new... You, like literally, if you are looking to be transformed in a way that you cannot imagine how you could ever be transformed, to let go of this or to step into that. Forgiveness is usually what I have found. The biggest thing that's holding somebody back is they can't let go of something. Why can't they let go? Because they can't forgive. And if you can forgive, just practice small. And all of a sudden, you will be shedding this weight that you did not, you weren't able to shed before. Even with Stuart Stockmoe. What I mean? When I was able to, all of a sudden, do you know, I saw him as an adult and he didn't know what was going on because I dedicated my first book to him. And I saw him and he was like, hello, I'm Stuart Stockmoe and I'm da-da-da. He was selling insurance. And I'm like. Stuart Stockmoe! He's like... Yes. And he kept talking. I'm like, Stuart Stockmoe I'm Dan O'Connor. I'm Dan O'Connor. He's like. Okay, are you interested in blah, blah, blah? And I'm like, you don't get it? I dedicated my book to you. And he's like, I don't understand, but I'm just going to, he was, he was totally freaked out. And now I get it. He didn't even know who I was, you know, like here I was carrying it around my whole life, you know, for 40 years. And I realized that's something I think I gotta let go.
Rosemarie - 00:48:00:
Wow.
Dan - 00:48:01:
You know, we, when that's, you know what it's like when you can truly, the only way to be somebody else. And that's what we're all kind of trying to do is be a different version of who we want to be.
Rosemarie - 00:48:12:
Yeah.
Dan - 00:48:13:
Is to let go of the person that you were. And to do that generally is going to require a lot of forgiveness.
Rosemarie - 00:48:20:
Forgiveness, but also because this is all very, I mean, I'm really enjoying this.
Dan - 00:48:26:
Good, me too.
Rosemarie - 00:48:26:
And I do think, yes, but for sake of time, I'm going to wrap some things up, but I could go on and on and on. Dan, clearly, because there's so many things that, everything you're saying is just so relatable. I found you on YouTube, like I shared earlier. What if somebody listening would like to connect you personally and work on these skills? Can you talk a little bit about how somebody can access your courses, reach out to you where else, or YouTube? Like I said, I found you on YouTube. I really enjoy your videos. Like how can somebody work with you and practice these things and implement?
Dan - 00:49:02:
Thank you. Um... If you go to Dan O'Connor Training, I'm going to spell that because it's Dan O'Connor, O-C-O-N-N-O-R, training.com. If you go to, because that's kind of a mouthful. I didn't choose my name very wisely when I chose my domain name. If you go to YouTube and look up the Wizard of Words, you can go there and then. On my homepage, there's the links to connect to me. I try to be pretty accessible, especially for people who... You know, who really are hurting. And I do. I do a little personal coaching. It's something that I don't. It is a premium product. But I do do it. I have found smart coaching to be something that's really, really helpful to people where you can send in, let's say, little videos. It's kind of like a video chat where it's not so time constrictive and it's much easier for most people. I don't know about you, but All morning I'm thinking, oh God, I got to comb my hair. I got to comb my hair. You know, so you don't have to comb your hair. You can do whatever you want, you know. But my courses, I have courses that start from the basics of communication and what I have found is the reason why we, you know, I end up talking about forgiveness is because that just is what it evolves into eventually, because we are here communing with one another. And if you're really going to... Up your communication game, eventually you're going to find yourself in the realm. Of metaphysical things. That's just how it goes. But I like to start people with very basic, like once, it's kind of like how athletes. They go back and practice the basics every year. We have to start with having things like a danger phrase and power phrase lists so that you can... Recognize the phrases that are sabotaging you at work you know things like I have an idea. Or things like, I'm sorry, you know, these little phrases that are robbing us of credibility that effective, powerful communicators do not say. And so if we say them, all of a sudden we're put in the category of not powerful communicators. We want to have things like a personal compass so that you can, there's only three questions that a personal compass answers. And if you just fill in the blanks, I am blank. I'm here to blank. I want blank. If you can answer those questions in that sliver in time between event and response, that will change what you say because you have to ask yourself, is what I'm thinking of saying? In alignment with those things. If you have really simple tools like that, and I help you develop those first, like we can't go to step two until you develop those, you will find lots of huge changes. And then when we start, you know, refining verbal patterns a little bit so that you can start talking like the people who are getting the results that you're wanting to get. Then we can move up into the big. Big courses, but I have small courses. For the people who are just beginning in terms of recognizing their own power and communication. All the way up to big courses and personal coaching. And the best way to get a hold of me would be YouTube, or my website, danoconnortraining.com. If you search it, you'll find it.
Rosemarie - 00:52:07:
Thank you so much, Dan. And so anybody who's listening or watching and there's maybe something that we haven't covered, you can either drop a note for us in the show. We can get it to Dan or like you said, Wizard of Words, reach out to him directly on YouTube. He said, you know, all his links are there so you can access him. And yeah, and I really liked that. You said you try to make it accessible for everybody.
Dan - 00:52:33:
Yeah, especially if somebody needs something and they really They just don't have any money. I get that. Let me know what you need and I'll make sure that you get it regardless of your budget.
Rosemarie - 00:52:42:
Great.
Dan - 00:52:42:
I always do that.
Rosemarie - 00:52:43:
Thanks so much, Dan. Okay. Well, unfortunately. You're welcome. We're going to have to wrap things up for sake of time. But I have a-
Dan - 00:52:50:
Rosemarie I feeling we'll be talking again because we're like this.
Rosemarie - 00:52:55:
I feel you, Dan. There's other topics that I'd love, love to talk to you about. But until then, that's a wrap for today's episode of Second Opinion. A big, big thank you to Dan O'Connor. Geez, oh my goodness. Big thank you, because I know this helped a lot of people for sharing his expertise on handling bullies and toxic people in both work and in life. I hope you've walked away with not only practical tools, but also a renewed sense of empowerment to tackle difficult situations with confidence and clarity. If you've enjoyed today's conversation, don't forget to subscribe, rate, leave a review, because it really, it helps others find the show. And if you have a topic you'd like for us to explore, like I said, drop us a note. We're always looking for new ideas. I'm Rosemarie. Until next time, take care of yourself, get some rest, and remember, always get a Second Opinion.