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You know that sinking feeling when you wake up with a hangover and think: “I’m never doing this again”? We’ve all been there. But what happens when you follow through? Sonia Kahlon and Kathleen Killen can tell you, because they did it! They went from sisters-in-law, to Sisters in Sobriety.
In this podcast, Sonia and Kathleen invite you into their world, as they navigate the ups and downs of sobriety, explore stories of personal growth and share their journey of wellness and recovery.
Get ready for some real, honest conversations about sobriety, addiction, and everything in between. Episodes will cover topics such as: reaching emotional sobriety, how to make the decision to get sober, adopting a more mindful lifestyle, socializing without alcohol, and much more.
Whether you’re sober-curious, seeking inspiration and self-care through sobriety, or embracing the alcohol-free lifestyle already… Tune in for a weekly dose of vulnerability, mutual support and much needed comic relief. Together, let’s celebrate the transformative power of sisterhood in substance recovery!
Kathleen Killen is a registered psychotherapist (qualifying) and certified coach based in Ontario, Canada. Her practice is centered on relational therapy and she specializes in couples and working with individuals who are navigating their personal relationships.
Having been through many life transitions herself, Kathleen has made it her mission to help others find the support and communication they need in their closest relationships. To find out more about Kathleen’s work, check out her website.
Sonia Kahlon is a recovery coach and former addict. She grappled with high-functioning alcohol use disorder throughout her life, before getting sober in 2016.
Over the last five years, she has appeared on successful sobriety platforms, such as the Story Exchange, the Sobriety Diaries podcast and the Sober Curator, to tell her story of empowerment and addiction recovery, discuss health and midlife sobriety, and share how she is thriving without alcohol.
Your sobriety success story starts today, with Kathleen and Sonia. Just press play!
[00:00:00] Sonia: Welcome to Sisters in Sorority. We are thrilled to have Allie Shapiro join us again. Allie is a [00:01:00] health coach, speaker, and creator of the Truths with Food program. Her revolutionary approach integrates emotional storytelling to help clients heal, heal their relationship with food, their bodies, and ultimately themselves.
[00:01:13] Kathleen: Ali is also the host of the popular podcast Insatiable, where she dives deep into the psychological and physiological drivers behind our cravings and behaviors. In our previous episodes with her, we explored the concepts of belonging, emotional cravings, and breaking free from the cultural narratives about food and body image.
[00:01:32] Kathleen: Today we're excited to uncover new layers of this important conversation.
[00:01:36] Sonia: Allie, welcome back. It is a pleasure to have you and your insights and your perspective on the show today.
[00:01:44] Ali: I'm so glad. I love chatting with you and Kathleen. So yeah.
[00:01:47] Sonia: We have so many questions that we didn't get to last time and We have a lot of questions about the cultural narrative around food and especially around holidays and celebration. So how has the [00:02:00] cultural narrative around food evolved over the past decade and what gaps do you think are still there?
[00:02:05] Ali: Yeah. Well, I think, at least when I was dieting in the eighties and nineties, I think it was sort of like, here's how you restrict yourself. Here's how you stay on track. Here's, I just wrote to my list about, I remember about 20 years ago being in a weight watchers meeting and it was poorly lit on a weekend on a Saturday and our weight watchers, um, leader, he was like, okay, everybody, We're getting ready for the holidays.
[00:02:32] Ali: How many points is a lick of Ben and the top of a Ben and Jerry's ice cream? Um, container. And we were like, one, you know? And then he was like, how many points are three Hershey kiss it, and we were all like, two, it was like this religious call and response.
[00:02:50] Ali: And then he was like, how many points in four cubes? of cheese and the room went silent and he was like [00:03:00] six and the whole room went, Oh yeah, like I don't remember that to this day and we were all still trying to stay within our points. Right. So that's what I think it used to be. And then I think there was in the last 10 years with body positivity and anti diet, it's like, Just eat what you want, enjoy it, all that kind of stuff.
[00:03:23] Ali: Um, and I think, I think that's true. And when you start to understand how physiology works, meaning the more sugar you eat, The more you want, it's not a, it doesn't matter how many calories you eat if you aren't getting the nutrition that you need. I think also knowing that this is a season in traditional Chinese medicine, this is the season of grief.
[00:03:47] Ali: And I think us in the West aren't great with that. So I think we shop, drink, eat, stay busy. And so if you're eating a exasperate anxiety, depression, [00:04:00] which are Unprocessed grief, you know, um, Kathleen, you could talk more about that than me. So I think there's a lot of complexity going on of like, Okay, are we eating because, um, we really want it, but where is the point where we're eating it because we're just trying to cope?
[00:04:18] Ali: And then, especially as someone who's postmenopausal, and the more you age, not that any one season is going to set you back, but as you age, especially after menopause for women, When you don't have estrogen and progesterone, you are more insulin resistant, meaning it's harder to feel satisfied in cravings.
[00:04:41] Ali: So not only as if you just had a free for all, would you be more hungry and have more cravings, but there's a more network metabolic effect of like if you were to do this for three months, right? It's not the same way as if you're twenties or thirties. so I think that to me is what I'm looking [00:05:00] at as when we go through all of this.
[00:05:02] Ali: And when I talk to my clients, I a lot of them will tell you, okay, I like the first piece of pie or I like a couple cookies. But after that, I, right. I don't know why I'm doing this. it's really making me feel horrible. Um, so that's where I'm at. I joke moderation is the new radical, so I'm kind of like, okay, how do you support your body so you can be with the emotions, including the joy and the happiness, if there is that for you at this time, um, without setting ourselves so back that we're not sleeping.
[00:05:34] Ali: We are aggravating our depression and anxiety and then we start on January 1st Wanting to go in some extreme quick fix that is actually gonna set us back even further
[00:05:44] Kathleen: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm . I think that extreme quick fix is, yeah. That's where, like January 1st, then they deprive, people deprive and like they restrict, restrict, restrict.
[00:05:56] Ali: and that's really stressful on your body
[00:05:58] Kathleen: oh
[00:05:58] Ali: have this thing called the HPA [00:06:00] access I tell clients just think of it as like Registering all your stress and like what people don't understand especially for those who want to lose weight Your body gains weight when it feels starving or overeating.
[00:06:11] Ali: Both send a biological signal that you're in a famine and you need to store. So that's like the other thing that we don't talk about around weight loss. these extremes are part of what's keeping weight on as well.
[00:06:23] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Now, food often around the holidays, and not even just during the holidays, anytime, really symbolizes connection. And so, we have this connection to food during celebrations. Can you talk a little bit about that? how does it symbolize connection? How do we navigate through that when it does?
[00:06:44] Ali: and this is when I think it's healthy to eat what we might consider not healthy things. So, you know, we talked about belonging in my first interview, right? And part of one level of belonging is belonging to something bigger than [00:07:00] yourself, which includes your family traditions. It includes when we used to Live in concert with the seasons or in concert in sync with the seasons, right?
[00:07:10] Ali: You ate these traditions that also connected you to the land. And so I think this is where traditional foods that you've had in your family forever. They give you something that your soul, that your spirit, that your emotional body, whatever we want to call it. I mean, those are separate things even, but need at this time.
[00:07:32] Ali: Right. and so that's when it's like, Oh, if this is going to help me connect and this helps me feel part of something bigger, cause we, we need that. That's part of belonging. That's when It's like, yes, it's, that's when you have to go for it. Right.and if you can bring that lens to it of connecting I'm thinking about not even a holiday food, I was just had a cold and my grandma used to make me fenugreek With tea with lemon and honey [00:08:00] and she's from the old country.
[00:08:01] Ali: My grandma was from Slovenia, right? So I get teary thinking about it, but when I get sick, I make myself fenugreek tea with lemon and honey. And I feel my grandma there. I feel like it's, it's medicine on all levels. And I think food this time of year can, can be that. And I do want to say there can be.
[00:08:19] Ali: A transition period of like my sister was diagnosed with celiac about 20 years ago, I think maybe 18. So growing up we made sugar cookies and you know, the smell of vanilla still reminds me of christmas Um, so there was a transition period where we and and I actually was healing my gut at the time So I had to be gluten free.
[00:08:39] Ali: I I don't have to be as as um restricted with gluten anymore So there was a period where we had to kind of make new foods Um, that were part of that tradition, but nowafter like 20 years now, they feel part of connecting me to my family and we all make them together. And we will still do sugar cookies.
[00:08:58] Ali: They will just be [00:09:00] gluten free and we didn't have a family recipe of sugar cookies. So we can still make those substitutions. Um, yeah. But I don't know. So I just said a lot. I'm gonna stop talking.
[00:09:10] Sonia: No, that actually leads right into our next question, which is how do you reconcile cultural food traditions with modern health narratives? So yeah, if one of them is adapting recipes, or I know we just talked about moderation, but yeah, how do we reconcile that?
[00:09:27] Ali: Well, I think most traditional cuisines balanced our physiology naturally, right? Because they were balancing within the seasons, right? One thing that's not talked enough about is how like light is Um, influences our mitochondria and our appetite and our, our cravings. Yeah, I had an episode on my own podcast about six years ago about this, but if you think about it, so it's winter, right?
[00:09:51] Ali: So it's like a lot of the, the, the root vegetables, right? We need more proteins at this time we're not [00:10:00] doing fruits and tons of carbohydrates. We need those a lot in the summer when, when the days are longer. I think about at our family, we have brisket, right?
[00:10:07] Ali: that's really like an in season food, right? So what I do with my clients is I teach them how to balance their blood sugar And it's not following a plan. It's just understanding. Okay, you need a little protein. You need a little carbohydrate You need some vegetables. So whatever your traditions are You can build your meal around that.
[00:10:27] Ali: You don't have to say no. So one of my clients, um, her dad, his thing was like these mashed potatoes he made, like these are dad's mashed potatoes, you know? I was like, okay, so then that's your carbohydrate. done. It doesn't have to be a big deal. Um, and if you are someone who's, has health conditions or sensitive to something like sugar.
[00:10:50] Ali: Okay. So maybe have a little less mashed potatoes cause you want to have pie. and I think we can have a little bit more leeway, but I don't actually think it's either or I think it's totally [00:11:00] possible to, to do it, to do it all. around the holidays.
[00:11:04] Sonia: Hmm.
[00:11:04] Kathleen: just, I wanted to ask a follow up to that because one of the things I've been learning about is if you're going to have the piece of pie to have it after a nourishing meal of protein and veggies and and healthy fats and then have it after because the blood sugar spike will be not as high.
[00:11:24] Ali: Yes, 100%. And this is where the problem with just trying to fit in your points or your calories, it misses like, okay, but the timing of your food matters. And it's, and for people listening to this, a lot of my clients are perfectionists. It's like, oh my God, do I have to eat at, you know, No, it's like the body's also resilient.
[00:11:44] Ali: I'm just talking about don't skip food all day and to save your calories or points like we were trying to do at my Weight Watchers meeting, which means your blood sugar's crashed, which means it's literally like impossible to be moderate at that point, because your body [00:12:00] will always try to keep you alive.
[00:12:01] Ali: Thank God. and so, having dessert and, and like even having a richer, fattier dessert Right. Rather than I used to be like frozen yogurt, you know, Oh, that's better because it's less calories versus it's like, no, that's spiking your blood sugar even higher. Um, and stuff like that. So yes, have the dessert after, or if you're going to have hors d'oeuvres or like snacks before.
[00:12:26] Ali: Right. Cause. people tend to leave stuff out. Try to do something that has like a higher fat or protein content. so it'd be like, have some cheese with the crackers rather than just eating tons of tons of crackers. Um, because I can't emphasize this enough that it's not the total amount of calories you're getting in.
[00:12:44] Ali: It's, is your physiology balanced? And those are very different, different questions.
[00:12:50] Sonia: So, What advice do you have for someone who is feeling overwhelmed by these sort of holiday expectations around food and, this is a [00:13:00] separate one, but around body image. So I know like with my family I would come home for Christmas and there's a lot of pinching of the fat. Okay.
[00:13:06] Sonia: Okay. like pinching the waist. You know? what advice would you give? someone who's nervous about things like that?
[00:13:13] Ali: Yeah. Well, so in my work there, there were, there's two separate questions there and we can talk about how I believe body image is fluid. I don't actually think we have a consistent body image, but let's talk about if you're feeling overwhelmed by everything. So part of in my work, what we're helping people do is evolve from this.
[00:13:31] Ali: I've been rewarded for being good, here's what I've been, here's what has cost me for being bad. So applying that to the holidays, okay, what's rewarded me for being good is seeing everyone, saying, you know, going with the flow, which One of my favorite Swedish proverbs is only dead fish go with the flow.
[00:13:53] Ali: it's like,I have to get gifts for everyone. I have to, um, you know, my son's daycare is like drop off the [00:14:00] sweets for the art show on Friday. Okay, I got to make those homemade. Like, All of these things on your to do list, right?
[00:14:05] Ali: And that's what we call like this socialized idea of belonging. I've got to be the good girl around this stuff. And part of how we stopped turning to food when we feel emotionally unsafe is saying what's called self authored belonging. And so I think it's start by saying, rather than just think you have to react to everything, start by taking a step back and thinking, what is important to me?
[00:14:29] Ali: this holiday season. What do I want to experience? And let yourself ask that question and think about it, I think, more in values wise rather than this has to happen. But so many people will be like, I want to feel like there's a slower pace. I don't want to max out my credit cards. I want to be financially, responsible or whatever it is, but I would encourage people to ask that because then what happens is you have a [00:15:00] stronger decision making filter, what we could call discernment to go into things.
[00:15:04] Ali: and what ends up happening is you feel emotionally fulfilled, emotionally satiated, right? This is a big thing that we talk about in my work is that satiation as an, as a mindset Um, so thinking about that is a first place to start of like, how, because all of a sudden that's going to then give you a fulfillment.
[00:15:24] Ali: So then it's not like food is the only thing keeping your energy going. It's not the only thing you're looking forward to. Um, there's a lot of other things happening. do you guys have any questions around that? Cause sometimes this stuff can be abstract, but I, so I
[00:15:38] Kathleen: No, no, continue because we were going to ask this question around the strategies about differentiating the need for the deeper emotional need and then the holiday food. So I think you're answering it.
[00:15:50] Ali: yes, yes. And I love, I love focusing on needs versus behaviors because it offers more flexibility. Right. So if [00:16:00] you have this need for spaciousness, it's not like, okay, I have to get up and journal every morning. And right. It's like, we've turned self care into a job. That when your other jobs are more important, they're going to go to the bottom of the list.
[00:16:14] Ali: So it's like, okay, if I need spaciousness, we had, I was telling you guys, we just went to Florida for Thanksgiving and my niece got married. Like we were just going, going, going. And so this past weekend, it was like. Okay, so it's gonna watch more TV than normal because I need to collect myself because I'm my truth with food program is getting ready to launch in January.
[00:16:32] Ali: Carlos has a lot of work to do. We're applying to schools for my son. there's like a lot going on. So it was like, okay. This is where I can fit in some coming back to myself because I haven't had any time to myself. So that's an example of flexibility versus being like, okay, I'm going to get up early in the morning because I need sleep.
[00:16:49] Ali: I take sleep, whatever I can get these days. So thinking about what are those needs? And I think to another huge thing is [00:17:00] connecting food and movement. Not, and this takes some time, but connecting it to. Resilience and being able to enjoy the season better. Right? So we went to Florida and I got some working on it, but I had a really bad cold or whatever.
[00:17:18] Ali: So we came back and ever since again, going through menopause, if I don't exercise and that could be like walking for an hour. Right? I'm not like. Heart rate person or anything like that, but it was like my mood was tanking I was just oh and I get so lethargic based my nervous system I have a parasympathetic and we talked about this and truce with food But I'm someone who needs like activation versus people who are sympathetic dominant.
[00:17:43] Ali: They're already type a and like They actually need to calm down, but I'm someone who needs a lot of activation. So it's like, okay, I got myself to the gym yesterday, and I eased back into it because I still have a little bit of a cold, but it's like my mood turned around like that. So I think [00:18:00] learning to connect movement and how you eat.
[00:18:03] Ali: to literally how you feel for the next couple of hours. It starts to take it out of the weight loss only narrative and that's actually what leads to sustainable change. Um, because adults need, my background is really in adult change and sustainable change. Adults need what I call quick fixes. Not quick fixes like we've thought in terms of weight loss, but we have so many other things going on that we need to be like, Oh, when I eat this protein rich breakfast with some carbohydrates.
[00:18:34] Ali: My mood is stable. Oh, my cravings are gone. Oh, I can go till 12 and I'm firing on all cylinders at work. That's actually what keeps you, doing quote unquote the healthy thing. It's not being like, Oh, I hope this makes me lose a pound in a week. It can be both. It's not, doesn't have to be either or, but what keeps you going is Connecting movement and eating to a better experience of your [00:19:00] life And you can literally like how you eat at one meal You can will set you can literally pay attention for three hours and see If I am full of cravings and I'm hungry, I didn't eat the right foods for me.
[00:19:13] Ali: If I feel great, that works for me. Your body will give you instant feedback. So, that's part of it with, um, the uh, with the, the holidays too you could, it's okay to want to eat healthy and move and connect it to, Oh my god, I'm sleeping better. I am not, Less like I'm not less patient with my child or my partner or my family.
[00:19:37] Ali: Um, so I think those kind of things. Then there's the other thing is what we call in truth with food. We talk about seven inch, seven foot, 70 foot waves of belonging, right? And people think of them as stress. So seven inch waves of belonging or where You know, you feel relatively safer. It's a low stakes interaction, right?
[00:19:58] Ali: So, [00:20:00] um, for example, maybe you're practicing not rushing cause you want to slow down and you, a seven inch wave would be like at the coffee shop. You don't like do your order and then hurry up and be like, Oh, I got to move over and put my change in and I'm just going to practice, right? It's like, okay. No one's going to judge me or criticize me here.
[00:20:18] Ali: I'm not going to lose any sort of connection if I do that. Seven foot waves are maybe where people you feel relatively safe with and you're going to really say Hey, can we not swap gifts this year? Like I'm just feeling, you know, and, and you feel like there might be pushback, but you also trust the person that there's enough,
[00:20:37] Ali: great relationship equity there that it's not gonna, it's not gonna hurt that. Um, and so I think people can start to experiment with those seven foot waves of like, what would I want to do differently if I was self authoring this, this holiday? But then there's the 70 foot waves. This is Tends to be our family of origin.
[00:20:58] Ali: you said, Sonia, Oh my [00:21:00] God, my concern with my weight. This is where all of these patterns started. Right. And those just feel, people feel overwhelmed because they're under resourced in how to manage those.
[00:21:12] Sonia: so I think with the seven foot waves and, and practicing with a seven inch and seven foot waves will eventually make the 70 foot waves feel smaller because you become more agile at what you need. And, as my clients say too, as they start to learn empathy and compassion for themselves, um, It is so much easier to extend that to other people.
[00:21:36] Ali: So I wouldn't expect people to be able to have that agility, that emotional agility in their family of origin. however, what I would say is find like the seven foot weight and person you can connect with within your family at this time. So for example, one of my clients. Over Thanksgiving, really struggles with [00:22:00] her family, right?
[00:22:00] Ali: This is where her belonging, her, here's how I have to be good. And her pattern was really to like try to fix everybody, right? I'm the responsible one. And she was, she's like, I was getting bingy at home. And it was like, cause the intimacy that she wanted was not there. And so I said, is there one person in your family that that sees what you see.
[00:22:21] Ali: And she's like, yes, my sister. And we always have this plan of what to do. Right. Like let's leave the house. Let's do. And I was like, okay. And maybe when, because she's still new to this process that I'm teaching her, right. and maybe you can just be with her and how hard it is rather than trying to fix it.
[00:22:40] Ali: Right. in being in the emotion. and then it also came up about. she's in therapy and as she gets healthier and healthier, she feels more distance from her family. Right? And again, I'm not a therapist.
[00:22:52] Ali: But what we did is she was trying to put boundaries around her family, right?
[00:22:57] Ali: Um, and she was finding that [00:23:00] the more boundaries she put around her parents, the more resentful and angry and distant they became.
[00:23:06] Kathleen: hmm.
[00:23:07] Ali: And I said, and, and again, this is part of the all or nothing, right? okay, I'm enmeshed and now I'm like completely separated, which aggravates the belonging. And so I said, what do you really, what do you really need from them?
[00:23:20] Ali: And she was like, I want emotional intimacy. And I was like, okay. And she said, it's interesting when my food started to get better. Yes, I knew I was leaving, but. I gave my parents what I wanted. I said to my dad, what's going on? and he cried to her and she said, And she got teary on our call being like, you know, that's what I wanted.
[00:23:44] Ali: I, I felt the emotional intimacy and I, and then she said with her mother, she went and visited her mother at work the next day and her mother was so happy. And I said, look, it's not fair that you have to be the one to ideally in a perfect world, your parents would be able to [00:24:00] give this to you, but they don't know how.
[00:24:02] Ali: And I said, and the difference is, what if you don't have to fix? their emotions. what if you could just be with it rather than the old pattern of enmeshment, right? And again, I'm not Kathleen, you could tell me these terms better than me,
[00:24:15] Kathleen: No, no,
[00:24:15] Ali: rather than feeling as the child, you're responsible for this.
[00:24:19] Ali: Can you just be present and realize that maybe over time, right? This is one instances. you're modeling for them. What is possible because her dad grew up in a patriarchal culture. He's not, how could he know how to be sensitive? He's cut off from his own emotions. Her mom is learning.
[00:24:36] Ali: And so that's what we call in truth with food option C around these 70 foot waves of, I said to her, you're going to have to be the cycle breaker. I'm sorry to break it to you. And she's like, no, I know I am, but that's that option C of like, she really wanted emotional intimacy with them.
[00:24:51] Ali: And so. The trick was to have it, but not to repair it and to be in the mess of all of that, right? Um, so [00:25:00] she can hold both. She has the emotional intimacy and, Ugh, I wish they could do this for me, but maybe as I have more compassion for myself and can be there more, I can also, this may change the trajectory of the relationship.
[00:25:15] Ali: I don't know, she doesn't know, but she's getting the emotional intimacy she needs. So that's an example of how to handle those 70 foot waves, starting to, to hold them is realizing, trying to interrupt the old patterns by getting your, getting your needs met, but also not having to, in that case, fix what was happening.
[00:25:36] Ali: Right? I don't know. Does that make sense? Or am I, sometimes these concepts again can be abstract, but
[00:25:42] Kathleen: No, it really makes sense to me because, what I think you're also saying and you've said kind of throughout this is that We need to be flexible like we need to be flexible and I don't know if you've ever read the Tao Te Ching Have you
[00:25:56] Ali: Oh my God. I, my master's thesis was rooted in the [00:26:00] yin and yang. I mean, in the Tao. Yeah.
[00:26:02] Kathleen: so So I'm gonna like I mean, I hope I'm not gonna butcher this but in the Tao there's like a verse I think it's verse 76. Actually, it says like men are born soft and supple dead. They are stiff and hard Do you know this one? Plants are born tender. Okay. So plants are born tender and pliant dead.
[00:26:22] Kathleen: They are brittle and dry and whoever, whomever is stiff and inflexible as a disciple of death and whomever is soft and yielding as a disciple of life. And that I think speaks to, right. the flexibility We if we are hard brittle and dad like if your client was just like no I need emotional connection if they don't give it to me like then that's not what i'm getting But it's like no, how do we be flexible about this?
[00:26:50] Kathleen: Like what is? What is the flexibility within ourselves? Right
[00:26:54] Ali: Yeah. And that's holding like most like practically stated it's holding the [00:27:00] and, and that is actually a developmental milestone. So actually all of my work is helping people be able to hold that and, and part of that is developing emotional capacity, right? So that you can be with. The relief of the emotional intimacy, intimacy, but also the sadness that they can't give that to you.
[00:27:20] Ali: Right. And so rather than just being overwhelmed by the lack of emotional satiation, cause you're not getting what you need, you have to like, and in the, in part of why I love the work that I do with clients, I mean, it's because we are getting, Results of, people forgetting that they had decades of journals where they were binging and beating themselves up.
[00:27:39] Ali: They just, the binging gradually goes away as they cultivate this self authored belonging. But they, as they start to have more compassion for themselves and realizing that so much of who they thought they were was what we call this inner protector. It's like, I'm trying to protect my belonging. And I always say to people like Chris Rock, he's an American comedian, [00:28:00] but he had this like hilarious bit like 30 years ago.
[00:28:02] Ali: He's like, when you're dating people, you're not meeting them. You're meeting their representative. You know, it was just like this hilarious bit. AndIn this case, like our parents had protectors, we have protectors and everyone thinks we're fighting with who we really are, but we're all just like meeting with these, to your point, Kathleen, like rigid personality traits that have gotten us belonging, that have made us feel like we're good in this world and that we're worthy.
[00:28:30] Ali: But a lot of them have outlived their purpose and they're not flexible. Um, so it just makes people, it's amazing how other people can shift and change when we have that flexibility and that suppleness.
[00:28:43] Kathleen: Mm hmm. Absolutely.
[00:28:45] Kathleen: Thank you for listening to Sisters in Sobriety and we'll see you next week when we'll share part two of our conversation with Ali , You don't want to miss it. [00:29:00]