Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Dive into the dynamic world of international Jewry as we explore the core issues facing the Jewish people today. The World Jewish Congress-Israel is proud to present its newest venture: a platform for insightful discussion and critical analysis. Join Efrat Sopher, a London-based WJC activist , as she sits with distinguished guests to tackle compelling issues on the Jewish agenda such as the struggle against antisemitism, the challenge of maintaining Jewish identity, and interfaith dialogue, as well as to celebrate Jewish lives and traditions around the world.
Usually, we think of religions as something that can cause conflicts and disagreements. But our faith is one of the most valuable and defining elements in our personalities. And as such, it can also become a bridge between ourselves and others. This is exactly what the term interfaith encapsulates, an attempt to use shared beliefs in order to create personal and global connections between people of different religions and communities. I'm doctor Efrat Sofer, and Today in Jewish World, a podcast by the World Jewish Congress Israel, I'm very excited to have here with me Claudio Eppelmann, the WJC Commissioner for Interreligious Dialogue.
Speaker 1:Claudio has worked with a pope and the Holy See on behalf of the WJC and the Jewish community in South America. For me, it's a great opportunity to discuss with one of the most successful colleagues about his work and the interfaith field. Claudio, I'm so, so happy that you're here. Welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:I I I am also very happy to speak with you today. Jewish World, a podcast by the World Jewish Congress Israel, connecting Israel to Jewish communities around the world.
Speaker 1:I can say that for me, interfaith is, first of all, it's the coming together of 2 worlds. But Claudio, what does interfaith dialogue mean to you personally?
Speaker 2:Okay. I think when we are speaking about interface dialogue, usually, people say that it is an experience meeting someone which is different about the common values. I think it is the opportunity to meet with the other who is not exactly yourself, who is a person who is different, who's a person that didn't believe different, and, culturally, could be also different. So but I want to emphasize something different, which is not a traditional approach to interface dialogue, which is, as I said, that based on common values. And I think if we forget to add that, the most important is not only that, is the respect to those values who are not the same than we believe and we have.
Speaker 2:Because syncing only in the common part is avoiding the different part, which is part of our own identity. So the interface dialogue, it is not only the opportunity to meet other on the common part of our identities. It is also the opportunity to meet something that is absolutely different, and we don't want to discuss and to convince each to other about it. Only we are trying to create a contact and to understand and the opportunity despite the difference to, to use the opportunity to sit around the same table with a dialogue, a constructive opportunity to learn each from other.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And I think that with that respect to the others comes a very deep sense of identity and spirituality. And I feel that and that kind of that spirituality and my own faith really, really affects my interfaith work. So for me, being Jewish and being a Zionist is part and parcel of who I am.
Speaker 1:And I think that, to me, that's where interfaith work is the strongest, when one comes from a deep understanding of one's own heritage, history and identity. One example of that sense of history comes to mind when I think about my visit to Medina in Saudi Arabia. We had the merit to plant our own date trees for the first time in about 600 years since Jews had planted date trees in Medina.
Speaker 4:And I found that so moving because it made me think of Jewish families who like my own who have lived in the Middle East for millennia. And it's interesting where you say that you like that interface between differences and similarities, and I can really identify with that because family Jewish families from the Middle East have been living with Muslim communities, for example. And there has been that intertwining of religious identity and different religious identities, but within the same space. So they become interwoven at times, which is really, really, really interesting.
Speaker 1:How does religious identity affect your work?
Speaker 2:First of all, when we are speaking about religion's identity, we are speaking about the deepest we have, in part as part of our identities, the most important part of our personal believing. So if it if you if we define ourselves as per people of faith, person who who would be, which believes in something. So this part of our values are of of our spirit, spirituality should be part also, part of our behavior. So the question is, how do we approach to the other who we believe and we know in advance who is a differ who is different? So how will how will how will do we handle the diversity in the creation?
Speaker 2:So that is, I think, the biggest question. And I think when we are approaching to the other, when we are speaking about interface dialogue, I don't like to say that the Jewish people is speaking with the Catholic people or with the Muslim people or with with others. It is a person to person dialogue. It is the opportunity to create, a personal bridge through the dialogue to understand and to know the other. And when I am speaking clearly, I am speaking on behalf Claudio, and Claudio is a Jewish.
Speaker 2:And once I say that I'm a Jewish, so I am connecting the other in my own capacity of being a person, but also Jew and also an Argentinian and also a lot of things, which is my own identity. And, and that is, I think, the most amazing part, of the meeting people, which you know that is different. And sometimes you had very good surprises and, sometimes not so good. But I think, as a as part of the results of our job working with others, but not also in terms of our duty, collective duty, but also in the personal level to meet and to understand and to discover the other, I think is, in a very amazing part of the interface dialogue.
Speaker 1:So, Claudio, you mentioned this, I think it's very important, that sense of personal relationships. And so we have a person in common, a very brilliant Moroccan diplomat who who knew who knew you and your work in her posting and has recently been reposted to London. And thanks to your warm relationship with her and others in the community, my calling card, so to speak, was kind of your relationship with her, which meant that instantly our work became a lot easier. And so your bridge from from Argentina transported itself to Europe. And I think it's it's amazing how that works.
Speaker 1:And absolutely, it's all part and parcel of of our work and that bridge building.
Speaker 2:I think we are facing 2 different things, and I know, where exactly who are you speaking about. I think we when we face a new person that we know that is different, a lot of prejudice are showing up in the center. And and also a lack of, confidence because it is a new person. And I think once you have a common friend, when you had the opportunity to, overcome the, prejudice and to see that the other despite is different could be also a friend. So this is the first step to understand that could be others who are also different could be in the same, stage, in the same level of the person.
Speaker 2:And so I think that is the way to build, confidence. And I think that is exactly what you are, highlighting, the opportunity to say that I met a Muslim diplomat. I create a personal relationship as a Jew living in Argentina, because we could trust each each other. So we could speed up your personal contact with the other. And that is exactly what I think it is creating personal relationship among people.
Speaker 1:And it's absolutely amazing. I I don't think it can be kind of undervalued. It was like I had an instant sister. It it was, amazing. And it melts the ice immediately.
Speaker 1:And it's so, so positive and so powerful. But Claudio, if if we can kind of go delve a bit further about this faith element, why do you believe that kind of what part does faith have? And it's such a critical component of our identity that helps us connect with others.
Speaker 2:According to the Jewish tradition, all of us are brothers because we have a common father. If all of us are brothers could be as in my in every family, you you know, you have differences with your, relatives. And, as as big as the family could be, also bigger the problems, but it doesn't mean that, we are not part of the same family. And, despite we can, pray differently, it doesn't mean that we don't believe in the same God. And I think also in the family could be each son speak with their parents differently, but it doesn't mean that they, they are not part of the same family.
Speaker 2:And could be you pray in Hebrew or in English or in Arabic or in Latin, but it doesn't mean that you are not in contact with something in the, superior level that we call God. And, this is again the the learning from the Jewish tradition that it that all of us are part of the creation. All of us are coming from the same father, and spirit spirituality and religion does not mean that because it is different, we cannot again sit and share with the other. And I think that is the challenge because when the level of prejudice is very high, sometimes you say, okay. I'm not going to sit with him because he has a different religion.
Speaker 2:But the question is why? It is only it is only prejudice. So being in contact in the personal level is when you begin to overcome, to destroy the prejudice, and to build a real reality of contact each to other.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. And I think that when it comes to diplomacy and when you approach diplomacy from a faith perspective, you're able to have a conversation, as as you said, about someone's deepest deepest beliefs. And when you identify and when you can discuss those deep core beliefs, it's really an effective way to see where there are mutual interests, where there are areas of mutual understanding. And so when you talk and this is the magic where faith intersects with diplomacy, and you're able to really, really connect with someone's strongest interests.
Speaker 3:You're listening to Jewish World by the World Jewish Congress, Israel.
Speaker 1:Claudio Eppelmann, World Jewish Congress commissioner for interfaith dialogue. I think it's time to tell us about your work with the pope and the Holy See. You headed a magnificent WJC delegation to meet his holiness. How did your connection with a pope come to be? And what are the outcomes of your relationships?
Speaker 2:I, for answering this question, I I should begin a couple of years, in advance, then that he was in personal contact with the priest in Buenos Aires that was planning his retirement. He was very close to to get 75. So he was planning his new chapter in his life as a and he was planning, okay. We live in a house of the jet suites that we have in a neighborhood close to where my my church. So I was planning what I will be doing because I will be assisting in a parrot, to the priest there.
Speaker 2:And, suddenly, this, old priest that was planning his retirement received a call that she traveled to Rome, and he never came back to Buenos Aires. And it happened at 13 years ago. The name of this priest is Jorge Bergoglio that we shift to Francis Francis. He used to wear black. Now he used to wear white, but he's the same person.
Speaker 2:And the same person who where they could build a personal relationship when he was archbishop of Buenos Aires, and his, I think, terrific quality is that once he was, appointed, he was elected pope and the from the very beginning of his pontificate, he kept the personal relationship, not only with me, but with many people that he was in contact in Buenos Aires. And I think it is, it is also approved of his personal values, of the level of his values, that once he is one of the most relevant leaders in the world, he still is keeping his, relation when he was a humble priest in Buenos Aires. So this is the beginning of the story. So the day in the Saint Peter's Square when he was, in the in the internization of, his pontificate, the very first day, in the very beginning, a priest approached to the section where a couple of Jews were participating in this ceremony and said, mister Claudio Appleman? I said, yes.
Speaker 2:I am Claudio Appleman. And he said to me, if you agree the holy father tomorrow would like to meet you privately, I said, yes. Of course. And I was in contact with him from his first day as Francis continues their relationship from a lot of years in Buenos Aires, in which I share with him all the Christmas dinners. I went to the cathedral in Buenos Aires to the mass on the, Christmas evening, and later I stayed with him for having dinner.
Speaker 2:And it was a tradition for many years, and, every year, he called me for to wish a happy New Year in Rosh Hashanah. And with the very, nicest style to exchange greetings, But not only in terms of courtesy, also in terms of dialogue to say, okay. We are facing in Argentina such problem. How do you see we should approach and discuss in and this is something that we could continue being in contact, and we could continue and to keep this relationship. And also put in this relationship, as you said, when you know someone and you can introduce in the conversation as the Muslim diplomat you mentioned, it is, also you're expanding your cycle of influence.
Speaker 2:We could do the same with Francis, with all the World Jewish Congress, and it was the opportunity also to do something that I believe it is the most important and the most, relevant fact since Nostra Aetate, that is that the World Jewish Congress could do its meeting, its annual meeting in the Vatican, in the scene of the room, which is the, the the room where the, church do their own meetings to plan and to analyze their own challenges, and we could do the same. We could go to the to meet Francis and coming back to again to the, synod room, where for a kosher lunch in the Vatican. I think it is one of the most significant if it's significant, facts in the Jewish Catholic relation in the last 2000 years.
Speaker 1:It truly is historic. And having been at that meeting with you, Claudio, I think one could feel
Speaker 4:the historic occasion yet. On the other hand,
Speaker 1:the relationships were so solid with our Catholic counterparts that it had a very natural casualness to it. It was like, well, it was a coming together of communities in a very powerful way, but in a very natural way. And that's, I think, a very large part thanks to your relationship with His Holiness and leaders setting the tone, to those relationships.
Speaker 2:Again, I think as I said in the beginning, and it it is an example another example, among many that everything it is built around the personal relationship, the one to one relation. And if you when the when the people who are in the person this personal contact are relevant, so the cycle of influence is bigger. And as more relevant is the personal, more relevant is the is the impact that it can have. So I think that meeting with pope Francis, it is also an opportunity to impact in many, many, many believers, Catholic believers, that knows that, the holy father has Jewish friends. And through the Jewish friends, he's creating, and he's trying to, to build the fraternity, the UN fraternity, which is for him one of the most relevant, topics, in the interface dialogue.
Speaker 2:And, and I think World Jewish Congress has a privilege to doing that, in the Vatican with the pope Francis.
Speaker 1:I find that the ability to use personal relationships in order to improve the relations between communities all over the world is truly a blessing. And I found shared beliefs to be a key ingredient in that. Personally, working on the Abraham Accords, I understood the huge, huge importance of faith and relationships on many levels. It was pretty critical to the dialogue that we had in the UAE in particular. Their faith leaders have so much influence over their government.
Speaker 1:And when we heard their faith leaders speak about coexistence and peace and understanding, we really recognized a very encouraging pathway to normalization and to the Abraham Accords. And I think to me that the Abraham Accords also symbolize the sense of homecoming. So for instance, when I visited Bahrain, I was hosted by the Bahrainian ambassador to the UK. And I was able to accompany British members of parliament. They were there for a security summit.
Speaker 1:I was able to accompany them to the synagogue in Manama with ambassador Houdanunu, who was Bahrain's ambassador to Washington. And she's a brilliant Jewish woman. It was the coming together of so many worlds on and not to over exaggerate it, was really on a biblical scale. And I think that the title of the agreements really reflects that conception. The biblical sources and turning to Abraham as our, as you say, as our common forefather.
Speaker 1:Is shared history important in interfaith relations, do you think?
Speaker 2:Yes. I think the Abrahamic Accords has it is, an accord between some Muslim Arab countries with the state of Israel, but with a huge impact in the Muslim Jewish relations, not only focused in those countries. Because I think it is a proof, a political proof, a religious proof in the two levels that Jews can live in peace with Muslims, with the Arabs, even saying that they are living in Israel and living in the very in the ones of the most relevant, Muslim Arab countries. So once it is approved, so why not cannot we repeat it elsewhere? So async coexistence, it is not the result of the deep in providence.
Speaker 2:It is a decision of leaders. Decision of leaders means when also Sadat decided to visit Israel. A long time ago, he made a decision he should pay with his life. But his decision was instead being in war, we are going to live in peace. And I think it is also the same decision that many leaders in Arab countries, with also with the leaders of the state of Israel made, that we have the choice, and it is the responsibility of the leaders to decide if living in past in peace or living in war will be the past.
Speaker 2:And I hope, I wish, and I pray that many others can repeat it, and we can create create an environment in which religions could be a part of the diversity, but not the gap that it is impossible to breach. And a an Abrahamic Accords, it is the proof that it is possible. It only it is only up to the convictions and to the courage of the leaders to make the right decisions.
Speaker 1:Amen to that. And this was something that, Ambassador Ronald Lauder mentioned, I remember, several years ago, way before the Abraham Accords. We were in a meeting in Brussels and and he said to everybody, It's the role of the leaders to set the tone and the street will follow. And I couldn't agree more. I think also that since October 7th, the importance of interfaith is more fully understood.
Speaker 1:For me, it's like the veil has been lifted. And from my experience, it's been a really illuminating experience where after the October 7th massacre, for example, I've had friends from Saudi Arabia, from the Gulf, from the UAE, from Bahrain reaching out just to see if I'm okay and if my family and friends are okay. And we've been able to have really frank conversations that some people may not have been able to have publicly, obviously, but that connection was there. And we were able to reach that space where we're talking from our core beliefs and to talk about what Hamas represents to them and how and what the role of Israel is in battling Hamas, which in private conversations has been truly remarkable. How do you view the importance of interfaith in times of conflict?
Speaker 2:Okay. I think October 7th is, the beginning of the new chapter in the history of the world. Not only for Israelis and Palestinians. It is also for all the world. And I think, again, it is, as I said with, speaking about the pope pope Francis, at the beginning, I say it is very difficult for Francis to to raise new friends once he's the pope.
Speaker 2:But he's keeping the friends he has in his previous times. And I think, the same principle applies for times of crisis. It is very difficult in time in times of crisis to develop personal contacts, to develop, personal friendship if you didn't in advance. So I think the challenge is if you had contact relations previously, how you are going to use them during the crisis? But I think it is very, very, very difficult, much more difficult to raise the contacts in the middle of the war.
Speaker 2:Despite it is necessary, but it is more and more difficult. So we think our opportunity is to work permanently permanently, and this is something that I want to emphasize, permanently trying to do deeper their relations with our neighbors. And once we are facing a crisis, it is easier to to do something together in order to to reestablish the previous conditions. And I want to give an example that, I think, could be also approved to to how the personal contact can lead the street, as is mentioned at the Ronald Lauder. The universities.
Speaker 2:The relation between students of different faiths in universities all around the world, with some exceptions. I don't want to to explain what happened in Europe and neither in America, but we want to give an example of what happened in Buenos Aires, which is, I think, the difference Because the leaders of the Jewish community together with the president of the conferences bishops in Argentina and they were also with the, evangelistic church and the Muslim communities, with the authorities of the university in Buenos Aires together made an appeal to all the students to keep the academia as an academia, to keep the an university as the university, which is the meeting point in the diversity of the representation of the Argentinian society as a point of coexistence, and we didn't felt any clash in the universities in Buenos Aires. We didn't we cannot register any incident of violence in the University of Buenos Aires. But how it could be possible? Because of magic?
Speaker 2:Because suddenly the rector of the university decided to do that? Because there was a long and deep background of relationship between the religion's leaders? And only because that only because all the history of years working together the, the leaders of their, different religions. In all the disagreement and in the worst conditions, political conditions, they could put the personal relationship for serve their communities. And I think that is the proof how we can use in times of crisis, the interface dialogue as an asset of the communities.
Speaker 1:Now that's proper leadership. That really, really is.
Speaker 3:Jewish World, a podcast by the World Jewish Congress Israel, connecting Israel to Jewish communities around the world.
Speaker 1:Claudio, tell us about your work as the WJC commissioner for interreligious dialogue. What's your vision for your work with the WJC and for the WJC's work in, interfaith?
Speaker 2:I think, also, we have, in our communities, many people with a high level of prejudice that we also we have worked with them. And once we begin to put this topic in the agenda as one of the highest priorities in our, community leadership, I think it also it is also the beginning to create an internal discussion, which is the previous, step to go to outreach the others. And I think it is so important that, if you are following now the current visit of pope Francis to Indonesia, he is preaching as in his major, message about the opportunity to to live together different religions and the importance of the interface dialogue to create this environment. And I think ex this is exactly what I should do as commissioner for interface, working with our communities, trying to highlight the importance to interact with the others, not only in the personal level, but also as Jewish leaders. In our capacity of Jewish leaders, not only with other faiths, but also with all the diversity of the society, with politicians, with the with the different parties, also with the, reference, from the social organizations, for NGOs.
Speaker 2:So being part of the society in our capacity of Jewish community. And I think this is one of the biggest challenge because many people does it in the personal level, but not on behalf of the Jewish identity, individual or collectively. And I think this is the first step. And the second one is to go to to the other, to try and to arrange people, to to approach the others, to going to meet the other, to have the initiative, to to approach, and to build the relationship. I think this is my my job in the World Jewish Congress, and I think this is the importance that we have in order to to live.
Speaker 2:Because when we have a conflict as we now having in Gaza with Hamas and Israel, it is not only impacting in the, in this region. It has a global reaction in the Jewish communities and also in the Muslim communities.
Speaker 4:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:And both communities has their per there's people that do not do not believe in the possibility to live together. And we have to try to find the proper examples in order to convince the others that it is, our duty as leaders to continuously live with our neighbors in Paris, in London, in Buenos Aires, in New York, in Tel Aviv, in Manama, and everywhere where there is a Jewish community living with another community, mainly when it is a Muslim community as we are facing out this level of tensions. And the question is, what we are going to do? We're going to go through the path of peace, coexistence, living together or not? Again, this is a personal decision and also community decision, And I think this is what we should work and try to build this level of, conscientization to the people that we we should do the right decision.
Speaker 1:I think, Claudio, that you've touched on something really important where because our mandate is the representative body of Jewish communities in over a 100 countries, that mandate itself I think highlights the diversity that we have within our communities. And that's in a way a secret weapon that yes, we're all affected, for example, by what's going on in Gaza. I always talk about when I talk about the Iranian threat. I say that all of our communities are stakeholders in defending ourselves from the Iranian threat, for example. It's that diversity where we can learn from each other and each other's communities.
Speaker 1:And I think that the WJC gives us these opportunities to learn from each other and share experiences. And as a faith group, it's also an important one where we represent the Jewish communities. And I feel that I'm always there to represent our people and it is in our mandate. And so when we reach out on the interfaith element, we represent Jews and that diversity also. And so one experience comes to mind, I'm not sure if I've shared it with you before, but when I was in Abu Dhabi and we visited the Sheikh Zayed Grand Mosque, which is spectacular, it was the WJC Leadership Bridge delegation.
Speaker 1:And I had the muezzin, and he was saying the Muslim prayers. And I turned around to rabbi Isaac Shur who was who was with me, and I said, this sounds really, really familiar. I'm sure I've heard this before, but I hadn't been in a mosque. I hadn't spent a very long time in a mosque enough to hear the prayers. And so rabbi Isaac said that in our liturgy, in kind of Sephardi and Mizrahi synagogues, we use the same scales, the same makamat, as they do at the mosque, which is why, you know, it was very reassuring that to hear that familiarity and to have that instant connection.
Speaker 1:And I think that's it's it's a it's a spark where you can light and kindle different relationships. And it's it's that self belief as well to know our diversity, to know that, for example, you know, my friend and colleague, Claudio in Argentina, knows kind of the Catholic world very well because he has kind of lived there and and and has these deep relationships. And other members of other communities have relationships with other faith groups, and that's hugely meaningful.
Speaker 2:I think the beginning is the word diversity. And diversity also we can see is something that I think is the, the center of the core problem. And once I was discussing with some, leaders in and we can see today in the world, in some countries in the world where, there is an altruism. When you say, where is the opposition of to the government? So the opposition is in the jail.
Speaker 2:But where is the opposition in Israel? It is in the government. It is in the Knesset. It is in the society. So the, Israeli society today, even despite that it is in the middle of the world, it is not a monolithic society.
Speaker 2:It is a very diverse society with some people that agree and many people that disagree in everything, in everything. And I think also it is a reflection in our communities. So once we go a little bit, forward, there is some people that are criticizing us before doing that. And if we go back, so others will be criticizing us for because we're going back. So to be a leader in the Jewish communities, it is a real challenge because the own diversity that there is in our communities, because we also should define which is exactly our community.
Speaker 2:So when we speak about the biggest communities as you can find in UK or in France or in Buenos Aires when in or in America, So how can you represent the feeling of 1,000,000 or 100 of 1,000, let's say, of Jewish members of the community? So no doubts you're not going to satisfies all of the constituency of the community. So you are going to receive some tensions, some impressions, some, even not not even not in the nice way from members of the community. They criticize and say, no, you are not doing you are do not doing well. It is not, for the for the good of the Jewish people or for the communities.
Speaker 2:So how to handle this diversity with this, misconception of monolitism in the Jewish tradition? So I think this is courage, which is to be absolutely convinced what you believe it is the right way for the community for doing that. And I think we should ensure the diversity of our communities despite the difficult for leading the communities because the diversity is is is our biggest asset in order to build a world in which democracy should be the rule for all of us.
Speaker 1:Claudio, you used the word courage, and, the word courage at its root is, the French word of heart. And I've seen I've witnessed you doing your amazing work. It's all from the heart, and I thank you for all that you do and for your inspiration.
Speaker 2:Don't exaggerate. Don't exaggerate.
Speaker 4:Really, thank you for joining me.
Speaker 2:Thank you for inviting me for this conversation.
Speaker 1:In this episode of Jewish World, a podcast by World Jewish Congress Israel, we discuss the vital work of Claudio Eppelmann, World Jewish Congress commissioner for interfaith dialogue, the importance of personal relationships, and the far reaching effects of interfaith work, building bridges both inside and outside the Jewish world. Please tune in to upcoming episodes of Jewish World. I'm doctor Ophrat Sofer. Thank you for joining me.
Speaker 3:Jewish World, a podcast by the World Jewish Congress Israel. Jewish World is available on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Amazon, and more. Subscribe for updates on new episodes.