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Explore powerful lessons from a men's initiation retreat in Patagonia. Discover insights on transformation and self-leadership.
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About the Guest
Terence Carfrae — Founder, Terence Carfrae Coaching
Terence Carfrae coaches men through the two patterns that quietly destroy intimate relationships: the Nice Guy and the Peter Pan. His work focuses on self-leadership as the missing capacity underneath most men's struggles with their partners, their sex lives, and their sense of manhood. After more than two decades of men's work, somatic therapy and time in conscious communities across Bali and beyond, he now teaches what got him out of both patterns himself. He works with men aged 28 to 45 who know something is off in how they're showing up, but haven't been given language for what they're actually doing. He lives and travels across Australia with his partner Nina.
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Welcome to the Love, Sex, and Leadership Podcast, where insightful dialogues and transformative teachings await. Join Aaron Kleinerman on a journey to explore the intersections of love, sexuality, and leadership. Through candid conversations with experts and live audio teachings, Aaron creates a safe space for self-discovery and empowerment. Embrace your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom, and live an inspired life as a natural, intuitive, and heart-centered leader. Dive into the mysteries of the universe and unlock the secrets to mastering the human experience. Tune in and embark on a path of profound transformation.
Welcome to the Sex, Love and Leadership podcast where you can discover simple tantric teachings to embody your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom, and live an inspired life as a natural, intuitive and heart centered leader. Well, welcome everyone. This is a conversation together with my friend Terence. I'm on Terence's Facebook as well. Yeah. So we're here to have a conversation about man's stuff and explore what's alive in this moment. Aaron and I have just come out of co leading a men's initiation retreat here in Patagonia and could use this as also an opportunity to debrief that maybe a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The premise of this conversation is really an exploration as well as looking at where the rite of passage exists for men these days. Like there's a lot of conversation around that. And sometimes this journey from boy to man, or really a journey from a man stepping into his full whole self isn't always a clear, dark dotted line direction. And there's a lot of pathways. And I know for you, you've had wide variety of pathways in this field of men's work. Same for me. And really just the opportunity to unpack some of this conversation as well as look at, we just finished teaching this initiation journey and to me it's called the initiation journey because we're giving men initiation that they haven't necessarily really received in their lives and seeing just the massive change that happens in a man's life as a result of that. And I know for me there's a deep longing to see more variations of that happening on the planet. But really what I see as a principle is that there's not a strong culture for men to step into a healthy initiation, really go from just a boy to a teenager to a young adult to really a man. What does it mean to be. Yeah, yeah, totally. And I have really resonated with this initiation journey, as you put it, because it is so needed. And you know, I've witnessed your process of coming into this work with men and you've really merged into the Tantra world and aspects of sacred sexuality as well as just standard rites of passage for men. And you know, I was steeped in some Native American traditions of vision quests and the different rites of passage in different cultures around the world that especially young boys would go through and finding a way that we can synergize all of these different technologies in the world and bring it into a format that we can then offer to men at whatever age they're at. Because, you know, ideally I think we'd have this happen for boys at their sort of coming of age of 13, 14, or maybe at the latest of 21, when they finished their schooling, to be able to really anchor into the identification in themselves of being a man. But I'm sure you'd agree, like, it's. I've seen men in their 40s and 50s go through their rite of passage and claim a deeper level of. Of their manhood. Do you think that there's a time limit on this? I don't. I think this retreat of itself. I had a guy in his late 70s who came a few years ago. You could just see a total shift in his dynamic. He's like, wow, I wish I had met this work 40, 50 years ago. So I don't see it as a timeline. But I also do see when I look out into the world and in this realm of psychology, psychotherapy, men's work, that men are only ready to meet this field. Usually when something falls apart, often is a job, a relationship, and they're down on their knees and they're finding, you know, God or finding something and like, wow, I need to make a change. You know, I can't keep drinking. I can't keep, you know, doing drugs. I can't keep. Keep doing all these things. And they're like, okay, I surrender. Like, that simple place. I know I was there a few times in my own life. That to me, is almost the timeline. It's like everything is falling apart and where do I go now? And unfortunately, especially this time of year, you know, with holidays, with family, a lot of men, instead of reaching for help, they just end their life. One of the things that happened a lot during, during COVID was male suicide rates skyrocketing. Like, the mental health or male bodies isn't something that's highly looked upon as an issue in society, you know, or even, even worse. One of the things I see a lot in this retreat is like, sexual abuse that men have gone through. Most of that is just hidden deep down. It's like men are supposed to be creators, and then they're supposed to, you know, manifest the wealth and just keep getting things done. Get things done. And then men hit their midlife crisis and everything falls apart and they're, you know, they have no one to turn to. So they feel empty, they feel alone, and they're like, okay, I'm not going to be here. It's such a tragedy. I, you know, and hearing that, I. I spent a good few years looking into some of the dynamics that are at play. And just this media and the standard cultural narrative is telling me that I really need to be more compassionate towards women. Women are having a really hard time and the focus needs to be on. On that feminist perspective. And it's true, there are things there that really need attention. And yet there was this glaring oppositional aspect that I was like, but hang on, how about men? The rates of sexual abuse among men, the rates of suicide among men, the amount of boys that aren't getting through school, the amount of college graduates that are men, the positions that men are able to attain in the workforce now. And there's this really interesting pendulum swing, I think. And yeah, I'm glad you brought attention to that. The male suicide and the epidemic internationally of this is. Is really, really tragic to me. But I do love the idea of, of having these places where men can come to when there has been a breakdown and their life has brought them to their knees. And to me, it's such a beauty of existence that we all must go through this process sooner or later of this rite of passage. And ideally, we'd have a culture that was supportive of us being able to meet that at an appropriate time. And I, I really think that that moment when nature has gifted us the ability to create life, when we go through puberty and now sexual organs mature and be like, that's, that's a, that's a big responsibility that nature. You can now create life. You could be a parent for another being, your kind. And I think there's really something that's, that would be benefiting us if we identified that more. But lacking that for me, I was, I was, I think, 22 years old. And I had been out traveling and I came back, I was broke, I had zero money and came back to Brisbane and was knocking on my mother's door and saying, like, I've got no money. I need help. I need help. I need somewhere to stay. And at the time, our family was really struggling financially. My mother was raising. She had six children and there was, I think, still four of them in the house at that point. And she said, look, you've got a room here in this house, but I can't afford to feed you. You're gonna have to find a way to earn some money to at least pay for your food. And it was a rock bottom moment for me. And it was a rite of passage. There was a. There was a moment when I realized, holy, no one's going to rescue me. It's up to me now. And I got about getting it done, I went and got a job that I really didn't love, and I found a way to make some money. I was able to feed myself and then built myself up from there where I had been reliant on institutions like my college or government sector schemes for payments while I was studying. And then when I was out, I worked at a resort and another resort, and they, you know, washed my clothes and took care of my accommodation needs and food and stuff, and I just had to shop to work. And progressively I had to let go of all of that dependency and really be responsible for all of it on my own. Yeah, and what I hear in that is like the coming of age, the coming of, okay, I'm not just a young boy anymore. I actually need to hold myself world. And I think a lot of men, I'm sure listening can relate to that. And one of the pathways I see as a result of that is so many men are like, I can't rely upon anyone, but I know this well, so I'm just gonna get things done on my own. And then entering into any work field or any place, it's like that lone wolf syndrome that's like, I can't rely upon anyone. I know how to get things done. I know how to build a big company to do all these pieces. And then, you know, sometimes later on down in life, I felt this at times where you're kind of there and you've built great things around you, but like, well, who. Who's there to share this with? And. And if the man even has enough insight to recognize, well, do I want to share this or am I just going to keep, you know, bulldozing through all of life without actually slowing down enough? Favor the gifts. And so one of the results I see from that syndrome of when a man rarely comes to his own is, okay, I'm gonna be the provider, I'm gonna get things done. But then can he actually learn how rely upon others? This has been a, you know, a huge journey in my own self at 14, counseling my father out of his gambling addiction and realizing, okay, he's my father, but he's kind of like my friend now as well, and realizing the only person I could really rely upon to continually get through life was me. And I've seen that pattern go through many years where I'm quite solo in a lot of ways. So one of my pieces that I know I'm always learning and I'd like to bring in more with men's work is the place of actually being able to Share power, being able to share the place. That's one of the reasons I brought you in to facilitate these retreats. It's like the place I know how to lead, I know how to get things done. But actually, like, not just being the lone wolf, not just finding that drive from a young age and then taking that through life. It's like finding that drive, finding how to put your feet on the ground, but then say, okay, can I have this level of power? And then see that to my brother as well, so that we rise together. And I think that that piece, to me feels like a really important aspect of the initiation. Not just the retreat, but just the initiation from kind of that young man into a healthy grown adult. And there are a lot of boys or men in their 40s, 50s, 60s, who still, I don't think have that principle aligned. All they've known how to do is just fight for themselves. And they might have others that worked underneath them, but it's still like, father knows best, I know best. I'm not going to rely upon anyone else. Your thoughts on that? Yeah, I think there's a safety delusion there that it's. If I don't rely on anyone, no one can let me down. Yeah. And so I just do it all myself. And it's. It's a very lonely life to lead like that. It speaks to me of the journey from codependence, which we have, you know, necessarily as children and babies, we're dependent upon, on others around us, and then we go into the realms of independence and teenagers. We fight for that. We all can do it by myself and you're not the boss of me, that kind of energy. But then there comes this place of interdependence. And you've referenced this retreat that we've just taught together a few times. And during this, one of the things that was really evident to me is we couldn't go through that journey alone. We need that assembly of brothers there to be able to meet us. And there's no way that we get to see ourselves accurately and clearly without the reflection of a trusted brother. And part of my large vision of the world that I'd like to see is that every man have a men's group. And embedded in that idea is that every man has some brothers that he can rely upon, that he can be interdependent with so that he can achieve more than he could on his own. And as you said, to rise together, it's. It's a beautiful concept. And I. I think it's Built into our genetics. It's built into our. Into our psychic structures that we were as human beings designed to be social creatures. You know, a man in the wild is not going to survive nearly as well as having a tribe and having a hunting party with him, having, you know, a village there that's able to support him in all of his endeavors. And so the return of the idea of the hunting tribe, of the gang, of the. The band of brothers, whatever name you want to give it, but a group of men that come together, mutually supportive of each other with the intention of everyone rising together, I think is a. Is a really important and necessary step for our culture to. To meet, to be able to restore some balance and harmony in the way we navigate life. And what I hear in that is. Is a man's capacity to. If he has a tribe around him, then he has to also be able to lean into his brothers at moments when things have gone wrong, at moments when he needs support. And I think one of the three most challenging words I know I've come across, but many men come across is, I don't know. Right. I don't know. Oh, well, it's a scary place. Yeah. And to be an. I don't know. But then to have brothers around you that can support you lovingly without, like, oh, you don't know. You, like, actually, hey, let me help you. Let me actually genuinely help you. And I'm not going to secretly judge you and resent you because somehow you don't know. And I think that's the failure wound is strong of man. Because there's this part I know for myself, like, I don't. No one likes to feel like a failure. But then if someone recognizes that we failed, it's like all of the blockades possible try to go up so that that level of vulnerability that happens when that failure wound has been hit, it's like, oh, that's. Oh, oh, it's uncomfortable. Totally. To let other men recognize that that vulnerability is hit, like, requires courage, tremendous amount of courage. The thing is, though, I have a friend who. He leads with his vulnerability. He's quite amazing, and he's so loved for his vulnerability. And his power to unite people comes from out of his, like, I don't know what's going on here. I don't know what we need to do, But I'm willing to meet the challenge. And unless. Unless the group of men that are around me are of such a low level of consciousness, me identifying that. I don't know. I don't know how to do this thing. I don't know what this is all about. I would not imagine those men, unless they are low level consciousness, to berate me or to poke me and say, yeah, you fuck, you don't know what you're doing. I have this image. I want to go back and do a stronger Australian accent here. When I was young, among some of my friends in college, if I didn't know, they'd be like, oh, you fucking idiot. You don't know that idiot. Yeah, yeah, drongo. But as I've, as I've aged, I've been more selective and that I'm around, it's celebrated when I say I don't know. And it gives them an opportunity to step in and, and to support. And that's where intimacy has been created in, in my associations with men when someone doesn't know. And then there's not this judgment of, oh, you're less than. It's like, oh, wow, we get to help you rise up now. Like, let's step in and give support here. So, yeah, I, the story of that, if I don't know I'm going to be judged, it's, it's, it's lives in inside of me as well. Yeah. And I think part of that, you know, I look back to my years and you know, in the locker room and playing soccer and basketball and all the competitive sports and that place of. And also going through the military, you know, as a maritime military officer, you actually, you might die if you say you don't know. So to be in that place of I don't know or I don't have the answer, it, the what's programmed and I can still hear the programming myself, it's like you lose respect, you know, no one's going to follow you. So even in, what I've learned for myself is even in the moments where I'm like, I have very little idea what's going on right now, but someone or usually groups of people are relying upon me to know what I'm doing. And I know if I surrender enough, I can find channel or a source of energy that died. But from literally from the military training, it's like if you don't know, like, you're probably dead. So there's a part that has to like humble yourself to when you really don't know. But then most of the time just have this place inside that, okay, we're going to go this way, we're going to go that way, we're going to go left instead of right and Having the resources and the tools that are there, but also the humility to feel underneath. And that's where I think a lot of men go wrong, is there's an incapacity to actually feel the humility and the vulnerability underneath if you're around conscious man. And it's celebrated and it's beautiful. But reality is a lot of brothers in that way aren't necessarily hanging out in that framework. Know guys that are doing menswear, guys that are even watching this video or listening to this podcast, of course, have a bit more of a frame of reference. But there's a lot of individuals without any level of that consciousness on the earth right now. No. And if they're at all like, what I was when I was young, the. The great fear that I had was not knowing. Like, in the archetypal world of Jung's four masculine archetypes, that magician archetyped its. His immature version is a precocious child. He just wants to know. And it's such a beautiful thing to see a young boy that's like, I know everything. I know this, I know that. Like, let me tell you all the things, and I'm sure we've all encountered it. I don't know if you were like that as a little boy at times, but for me, I. I actually developed my precocious child at a much younger age. I think was healthy, a very unstable environment. I had an alcoholic father, and he was. Yeah, just unpredictable. And so a lot of boys, I've noticed, they. They turn on that precocious child and they want to understand everything they want to know. They. They want to predict into the future to create safety for themselves. And for me, I remember being in my teens, and if I didn't feel like I was the smartest guy in the room, I felt unsafe. If I didn't feel like I had the number of everything that was going on, I was like, oh, this feels unstable here. I can't predict what's going to happen. And I've encountered a lot of men that put on that facade of knowing everything because there's a safety blanket that they get from. Yeah. And so when I am encountering. And maybe it's you, maybe it's someone, you know, that insists on being the one that knows everything. I'd encourage us to look underneath and see that there's someone inside, there's a little boy inside that's feeling really scared in an unpredictable world. Yeah. I love you bringing in the unsafety piece, because I think that's often where I'D say the most trauma or the most challenge exists. And the reason I think a lot of men don't lean into even being in a circle of men and being around is that there's a little boy, boy inside that actually doesn't really trust men. So he inside is like, I'm not going to be around other men. And I see this when men are, you know, thinking about coming to one of these retreats or just in that it's like you can feel inside that their deep, deepest fear is not necessarily with women and things like that, but it's like, can I actually be vulnerable and let this vulnerability, let this little boy that's quite unsafe probably because some man crossed his boundaries or, you know, he was bullied as a child, all these different pieces. So there's this huge unsafety wound and trying to then have an outside world protect him and create coverage, but actually all that's doing is just putting band aids on an oozing wound that hasn't been dealt with underneath. And that unsafety, you know, I love that you bring that in because that's really where the core root of this work can start to change. When a man can know safety on the inside, no matter where he is, but also be willing to express and to be uncomfortably, you know, alone in that unsafety and know that he's okay, you know, that, that he can be there and he's not going to fall apart and he actually can be in that unsafety and let himself be safe, seen in that unsafe. Like just knowing that he's not going to die and some man's life to make fun of him, that alone over and over again it's like, ah, ah, okay, all right, all right, I'm okay. Like life is going to be okay. Like it might be unsafe, but I can be okay in that unsafety and I'm not going to die. And I dare say the men that just went through this retreat experience would have found some level of safety within themselves. A lot of the exercises and rituals that we took them through were directed at how they can find a deeper place, safety within themselves and how they can explore more of themselves and the shadows within and the interactions without from that place of safety. And just noticing these men from before they went in to after the. The level of groundedness they have, the willingness to be able to meet each other in the eyes and to be really present with each other and also vulnerable, to be able to hug and to name boundaries. Quite a striking contrast from before and after. And I wonder if One of the key attributes, as you're saying that they're gaining from this experience is anchoring into that safety within themselves. So for yourself, having, you know, doing this, working in men's work for a while, like, what would you say to, you know, the man who's, you know, maybe watching a video like this or read a book, and he's. He's interested, but he's a little afraid. He's afraid that he knows to step into that type of field, some part of him is probably going to die. He might not even be conscious at the time that reality. There's an interest. I see this a lot. Men are interested, but they're like, yeah, I'll do it next time. I'll do it next time. So, like, what. What would you say for yourself? Like, to speak to a brother like that. Create a. To create something where he feels like he can enter there. He's not going to fall apart. His world isn't going to implode. The first thing that I consider is what. What I would do. Because I used to be really afraid. I was afraid to go into my first men's group, afraid to go to the. The first men's retreat that I went to. And I'm not sure. I think it's very individual what. What a man may need to feel, the inspiration, the drive, the commitment to be able to enter into it. If I'd ask them to just listen, I'd ask them to listen to the inner calling. And I think for me, it was. It was. It was there. There was a noticing that there is something that is not balanced within myself. I fear intimacy with men. I fear that I'm going to be judged by other men as not being enough. Fear I'm going to be revealed as a. As a facade or as a sham that I'm. I'm not really who I say that I am. There's a lot of fear in there for me, and I guess it took me a while to do it. I think I was in my early 30s before I stepped through that rite of passage for myself to enter into men's work, to enter into a deeper relationship with myself and my safety. But I would say to men that are considering doing some of this work, to ask yourself if you can find the courage and to hear the calling within you, to say the. The way that I have been living is not in integrity with who I know I am, and to find that courage to just step over the threshold. Because there's a world of safety, of juiciness, of aliveness of purpose and direction that's available once a man has breached that threshold of their fear. Yeah. One of the programs I'm developing is, is just purely for that, to help a man audit where his dependencies are in the world and then to create a rite of passage for him to step powerfully into a new way of being where like you, you said it very tritely like part of him has to die. But that's not a small thing to acknowledge. It is a part of me has to die. That's fine, I'll die. Just an average Sunday morning. Yeah, I have a lot of care for that. There's been, there's been many, many stages of my life where something's had to die. It's never been easy. And yeah, I think that men finding a formalized way for them to be able to step through these barriers internally, that's limiting them in their expression in the world. Really important. And this retreat is one of the most amazing ones that are around my knowledge. But I just say to them, you know, they got to tap in. It's. It's got to come from them, it's got to come from that place within them that they know that the way they've been living is not the full and righteous expression of themselves. And they got to make that choice. Do they want to keep living as a limited version of themselves or are they going to find the courage to step through, claim themselves as a man? Yeah. Yeah. And then really in, you know, regards what I hear to that, the nature of why I've started to do this podcast, just having these conversations which I've been doing for years, but I've matched together is, is what I hear in that is really the self leadership like to know that, you know, there's a part of, I say almost all men, all humans that wants to, to leave an impact, that wants to leave a legacy, that wants to get out of his own way, to be able to self source that directionality. And in doing that, you know, like in our bodies we have cells that are being born and cells that are dying every day. So to create a new direction. I see this with clients all the time. It's like things have to die so that the new route can be delivered, can be seen, can be actualized. But that, I mean I just having a conversation earlier with someone who's just about to sign up into a group program and I can feel like that part of the psyche that's like, okay, I'm ready to do that. But to get from Here to there. There's a lot of pieces that have to like dissolve along the way so that directional leadership is actually present. Yeah, I've been working with my own anxiety recently is something that is, is new for me. I, I never named it before, but now looking at what's been going on in my life, there's been this low grade anxiety that's been with me for a long time. And the relationship between anxiety and death has really captivated my attention. There was actually one of the guys that was in our retreat that realized his this absolute horror, terror around the idea of dying and how there was so much anxiety around the death of every moment. And I wonder if you could speak to the, the relationship with death for men. Yeah, I think death for myself, meeting death. Of course I'm still living in this body. We're still living in this body. But that energy of where eventually this body will integrate and go and there's a kind of an archetypal energy of, you could say the dark, might call it dark, masculine or dark energy within us that knows death quite well and knows that there's something that will eternally go to and that's something that we came from. So my own experience is that the more I've met death, sometimes very uncomfortably, a few near death experiences where I was terrified, my whole body was trembling, but getting through the other side, it was as if by meeting death I could actually fully live. I think a lot of people on this planet are so afraid of death that they're living, trying to not go towards death. But if you confront death and say, okay, eventually death, I'm going to meet you, we're going to meet each other. So until that day I might as well keep living and fully being the greatest version of myself that I can be. A piece around death that always strikes home is when I envision whatever that day is when I'm on my deathbed and you know, I know there's only a few more days or a few more hours of being in this, you know, flesh suit. I want to be able to look back and say, okay, I, I, I gave it my all. You know, I love deeply, I love completely. I showed up with all the resources I had. And my experience is when a man can really meet that energy and can say, okay, like here you are, death, I'm going to meet you at some point and what do I want to create, do and be in service of on this planet before that energy comes and can I meet the place of death to allow all of the things that aren't in alignment to that to actually die. And this is where initiation, this is where rite of passage comes in. Because that really healthy rite of passage is, Janice, support those old ways of being to die, the old ways of doing business, the old ways of showing up in relationships, the old ways of being a man on this planet, of being a human on this planet, it's time to let it go so that this new version of yourself actually gets to be birthed. So to really know death is also to know birth. It's to know construction and destruction that's happening simultaneously and not being afraid of either and actually letting the balance of it embrace the totality of being human. Beautiful description, yeah. As you were speaking, I got in contact with that part of me that recognizes that the fear of death, the fear of birth, the fear of change, the having to let go, the surrendering, there's this underlying illusion or delusion, wanting of control. And the fear seems to come in the investigations that I've done and definitely within myself of these are places that I don't have control. If this thing's dying and something new is going to be born, what is that thing going to be? What shape will it take? How can I manipulate it to make sure it's the way I want it to be? Because I have these ideas that I want to project onto it. And I. I've been bringing death as a concept close for a long time and meditated on it. And like you said on, on your deathbed, you'd want to be able to look back on your life and to have no regrets, essentially, is what I heard you say. And for me, I feel that I've been working really well towards that. And I'd also love to be able to turn into. Yeah, and, and to welcome that experience, as I've often said to people, that on my, my moment of meeting death, I'd love to be able to have my arms wide open as if I'm welcoming a long lost friend, saying like, oh, thank you, it's been a long time. I look forward to being with you again. And yet I say this. But the actual thought of that transition of letting go of everything my, of my name, of my body, of everything that I've created, created every person I've ever been and every act I've ever done, letting it all go, take some courage. It does for me. It does to me. I. I wonder if it is like that for everyone else. And I wonder if there are those out there that are suffering from maybe some form of Anxiety. How this resonates with you? My studies into anxiety, that one of the pivotal things, this wanting to control and the fear of the lack of control, and the epitome of that lack of control is the death experience. Yeah. And if we bring it back into men's work and rites of passage and letting the old die, how do we let the boy within us transition into a man? Does he have to die? What would you say to that? Well, to me, what comes to mind is the difference between being childish and childlike. You know, there's a. There's a childish part that comes out that doesn't actually want to grow up. It just wants the, you know, everything given and life is on a platter. And then I don't want to actually grow up. And there's a healthy energy of being childlike at times. Like, I love that I can be childlike. I love that I can. You know, the run in the forest, you know, the other day when we were climbing the big mountain here in Patagonia and I was coming down and the snow was there and I was just trotting through and I was skippy and jumping and I felt very like my little boy coming out, just saying, you know, and that feels beautiful to be in that way. And so I think it's healthy to be able to connect to our little boy inside, but to also let him just have one of the seats at the table, it doesn't have to be the main seat. You know, it's like, okay, at times I want to embrace that young child inside of me and just be free. But if I'm doing that all the time, it's like, well, where's my directionality? Where is my alignment? And that's, I think, the evolution of integration, like these different parts and pieces sometimes in the death, like from my own stories, like from growing up and all the chaos and the confusion, like, I've let so many of those stories die. I've seen how they've impacted me and how they've made me the man I am. And I don't let those stories run my life. But I can still embrace my childlike wonder that happened around a lot of those stories. But I'm not dictated as a man in my day to day world based upon the stories that impacted me at a young age. And I think this is a big change, is that, you know, it's one of the practices we do in the Retreat too, is like letting that story of the young boy actually die. Not having that be a trajectory of how decisions are being made forward. When that dies, the new creation can come forward, still having a place to access the childlike wonder, but not letting the childish part of the boy lead the way, actually letting that die. So then it can be accessed from within rather than led from without. Yeah, I had a. Had a client ask me recently, but I don't want my boy to die. He doesn't have to die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But his role as the leader, his role in his childish ways as you described, of wanting to be dependent, of wanting to navigate without consideration of consequences as a couple of examples of how a childish boy would lead the way. His role must. His role as the leader of our lives must die so that we can step through and be the man who's now, you know, supporting the child to inform him how to. How to navigate. So we don't want to have just these stoic, rigid men who have no contact with him on connection with their boyhood wonder, and they're just, you know, charging on, destroying the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The. The role of the boy must die for the man to live. I see it like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So much gold. Well, I'm glad that we're doing this work. Yes. I feel that it's a beautiful thing that that's happening in the world at the moment. I don't know if this is your experience as well. My experience has been that there's been a shift. There's been a big shift in the last little while. Men's work is becoming much more popular. Men's coaching also rites of passage work, the remembrance of the ways that we used to do things, this primitive technology and. And the dreamings that we used to know and body in our lives of. There were ages that we did certain things. There were ways that we used to connect. There were rights that we used to have in regards to connection with nature, with the world, with the stars, with our lives, and they're being remembered. And it seems like we're at a beautiful time where men especially are being called to step into this reconnection, this remembering of some of the ways that we were designed to be here. And I'm really enjoying seeing this resurgence of men's work and men gathering. What's your experience of this time and this shifting been like? Yeah, I feel quite similar. I look at, especially in this field of kind of somatic contract work, like I have a number of different friends leading and doing a variety out in this field. And I can feel actually at times like a competitive spirit will come up that Wants to like to share. And then I'm like, no, actually I'd love celebrating it. And one of the, what's funny, as you were sharing that, just one of the organizations from some fellow brothers of mine that they run a group called Remember, really, it's like men remembering who they really are, you know. And then another group I know guys running is called Emergence. Like this emergent energy of brotherhood that's rising. So I just see that and I actually just celebrate it because in my perspective, there can't be enough men's work, there can't be enough of this happening because there's so many that are, that are suffering. And you know, I looked at, you know, two organizations that come to mind. One has been around for a while. Mankind Project of set a certain precedent in this field. And then recently a group, Sacred Sons, it's really exploding and growing more and more. And I, I love it. Like, I love that I'm, I'm, you know, don't feel like I'm one of those, like super well known. But it's growing and expanding more and more. And it's actually opening the doorway. Like there's a recent summit, you know, I've just done that. That is all about like bringing this work into more men's lives. And from there there's a filtering process, you know, I know like, the nature of the retreats that we run is much more advanced men's work, like the practices, the things we're doing there is not for everyone, you know, and it's for guys that are really ready to meet all parts and not just mind and emote and emotions and heart. It's like the entire totality of being a man in this body. And for some men, like, they're probably not ready for that for 5, 10, 15 years down their journey. But I love that more and more of these doorways are opening and there's more of a safe place that men feel that they can go and have a conversation. I would say almost every city in the world these days, you can probably find a men's circle, whether it's online or whether it's in person. You can find other brothers simply to come together to have a conversation about what's real, but what's vulnerable, what's alive. And that's one of the things I'd recommend more than anything, someone listening. If you don't have that in your city, then make it. It's actually quite simple. You know, men come together and you just have one person talking at a time and you Know, it's like there's this, you know, there's a whole lessons we could do about how to hold a men's circle, and he's asking me for that. But actually just come together and just let each other talk and be real and be authentic and being vulnerable. There it is. It opens the door. Like, I think the more that you, especially as a listener, if you're listening, that you don't have that in your neighborhood or your community or online. Create it, bring it, bring it alive, make it come to fruition, because that's only going to continue to open the door for more and more men to feel like they have a safe space to go and they don't need to take their life, they don't need to suffer. They have other brothers that they can rely upon. Yeah. One of my stated visions is for every man in the world to have metscript to be part of. And you're right, like I in putting together a manual on men's, men's work and men's groups and how to run them. But the reality is, as you said, it's. It's not that difficult. Just get a group of men to come together, have some basic rules of engagement, maybe, you know, don't come under any influence of drugs and don't hurt each other and have some respect rules in there. And it's easy enough to do. And one of the things that I found with men's groups is it's actually, it's not necessary for these men to be your friends. You could just find men that you in some way respect. And sometimes I've found that it's really beneficial to have a man in there that you respect but you don't. Like, like, I can think of some men that I would love to sit at a men's group because they are amazing and yet I just don't enjoy being around them and there's friction there for me to rub up against. And so it's not a place where we can all sit around just holding each other's dicks and going, oh, this is great. It's like, it's a. It's an opportunity to sit in a. In a. In a. Like a room of mirrors where we get to see the different aspects of ourself and grow and learn. I don't know. Have you read the book by Jack Donovan, the Way of Men? Yeah. Yeah. And he builds a very solid argument for the necessity of. Of men to be able to gather in groups. One of the things I gleaned from that Book how men are hardwired to assess the men around them or where their status lies. And so, for example, with you, when I'm around you, I do it. I do an overall assessment. I'm like assessing like how capable you are physically, what skills you have to navigate the world, what intelligence level you have and where you've chosen to apply. And when I've like done all that assessment, which men can usually do pretty quickly, then I'll notice the aspects of you that I want to, and then I'll start learning from you just by witnessing you, by being around you. And men will do this. And I'll also notice the ways that you are made deficient and I'll make myself available to help elevate you. And so in that I think men inherently, when we trust each other, when we have a sense of not wanting to have power over you or to compete with you so that you can be lower and I can higher, but to leverage you as, as this mirror for myself so that I can rise up myself and at the same time rise you up. Because the more you rise, the more I'll rise. The more I'll rise, the more you'll rise. And in that way, I think men really need to have other men around them and, and to find men that are both exceptional in some way to you, to whoever's watching a man that's exceptional to you, to be able to sit in a circle with him and maybe some men that are not so exceptional so that you have that ability to support and to be challenged, to emulate or to be inspired by so you can elevate yourself. I just love that, that we are hardwired to be able to assess men to see where they shine. Yeah. And then to be inspired to shine. Like we all want to elevate our status. For sure. For sure. And really what I hear you saying, that is a shifting from I need to have power over you, feel good about myself. And actually I want to share power together so that we rise together. And it's not a power over dynamic, but it's a power with dynamic. And that I think is one of the forefront places of men's work in that dynamic to be alive, even though there are leaders and there's people that doing it. But you know, one of the things that I really try to the best of my ability is lead. But lead from a place that's inviting other men to bring up their leadership, to bring up their gift, to bring up their, you know, flavor so that actually it's not about one person leading. It's about the, the circle dynamic that's alive in the group begin to lead itself. Not, you know, that is some of more of the, you could say tools and skills and techniques. And I'd say to a brother who is listening, who wants more of that, like Tom, seek out someone as Terence and myself to support you to learn some of those interpersonal skills so that you can actually lift your brothers up while you're holding. For sure. Yeah. And consider the archetypal image of King Arthur and his knights of the Round Table. And yeah, the glory of Camelot was not about King Arthur on his own, dominating, controlling, conquering the surrounding kingdoms. It was that he, he had found a way to gather a group of men that were all exceptional. And they sat together, no head, no tail of the table, all rising together. And the kingdom flourished. It's probably in our, in our culture, the greatest example of a successful sharing power. And I think the men's groups, you know, there may be a leader, there may be a King Arthur in that men's group in any given event, but all of the men are there at the Round Table, help each other rise. And yeah, I also concur with what Aaron just shared. If you are wondering how to be able to interface with groups or just even with other men, and there are skills that you can learn that, you know, I know you're a great teacher for that and I've, I've practiced a lot as well at helping men to be able to interact with each other in ways that are honorable, that are respectful, that are full of appreciation and gratitude and that enable. Yeah. You to rise with your brothers rather than to have that competing energy of I need to be better than him and my self worth is. Is only gained from pushing someone else down. Yeah, it's a, it's an old way of. And really, if you look out in the world right now and you know, politically, socially, economically, there's a lot of old power structures that are dying and they're grabbing on while they're on their death. It's a bit painful for everyone else, but it's happening and I think it's beautiful because there's a changing world that's happening. Sure. Changing of God. Well, how about you share with my viewers and people on your viewers and what you've got coming up that you'd love to talk about? Yeah, for sure. Well, for one, the retreat that we just did, the initiation journey, you can go to the initiationjourney.com. top quality. We'll Be leading more together as well. And Terence will be coming in to lead some of his own too. Moving forward. This is Aaron letting go of the range. He has been that lone wolf a little bit. Yeah, for sure. Very grateful. Yeah. So that there's. We're teaching in six, seven countries this next year so you can find out all those, all the different dates and they're called dishes. I do one to one coaching. I have just starting next week so probably when people hear this or if they're listening live, you can go to my website@aaron kleinerman.com you can find a group program. I have about one spot left. Not that's for a five month group container. Men and women learning how to be more proficient with coaching and counseling and really diving deep within themselves as well as for others. So if that's interesting to you, you can go to my website and find that out. And yeah, I won't say everything because I'm like this year I was on the road almost nine months. My God. I'm supposed to be sitting in a men's room with this man. And it's been something like nine months since you've been able to attend. Yeah, yeah. Glad to have you back in. I think when we both get back to Bali we'll be able to sit in a circle together again after many, many moons, many many, many months racing around the world sharing all your beautiful wisdom. Yeah. So I teach with a number couple different tantra schools in the world. If you go to my events tab on my website. Yeah, lots, lots of things. Lots of ways that my soul is giving in loving service to this planet. Helping people wait to up and how about you for the listeners? Yeah, look at the moment. My, my primary offerings around onetoone coaching and I have a program around rites of passage work that is really directed to helping men to step through these limiting boundaries that they have imposed upon themselves to, to claim a life that they want and let go of some of the dependencies that have been limiting them from their full expression and also putting together a program on the nice guy Persona. Those men that are out there that are still seeking to please mummy in the world, they've got this, this you know, desire to, to really just make sure the feminine is happy with them all the time at their own expense to let go of that Persona so they can, you know, stand more as autonomous man in the world. And then there's my mentorship programs which little bit longer structure where we work together really claiming manhood and discovering what that really is. All about. So, yeah, welcome to come along and there'll be more opportunities for the initiation journey coming up. So really, really beautiful experience that we've just gone through. And you know, my heart has been so blessed by the experience of these men here. They were. Yeah. Any of you guys that are watching just like had such a beautiful experience with you all and glad that you had the courage to come along and to meet yourselves in the ways that you did. Yeah. Retreat always touches my heart so deeply. I'm grateful for you. Grateful for what you've been creating, all the work you've been doing and yeah, glad that we're in this dance together, helping each other rise. For sure. For sure. Thank you, brother. Thank you for being in my life. Thank you for leading the way you do and very happy to share power with you as we rise together more and help other brothers get the same. Yeah. Now we get to sign off and go back to enjoying this beautiful land of Patagonia. Yes. Yes. We could turn the camera around. You see, there's like snow capped mountains out here. There's pine trees over here. We all just went for a hike up and into the mountains and it's just epically beautiful. Epically beautiful. Pretty amazing. So thank you all. See you next time. Have a beautiful day.