Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
You've heard the book publishing podcasts that give you tips for selling a lot of books and the ones that only interview world-famous authors. Now it's time for a book publishing show that reveals what actually goes on behind the cover.
Hosted by New York Times bestselling author Anna David, Behind the Book Cover features interviews with traditionally published authors, independently published entrepreneurs who have used their books too seven figures to their bottom line to build their businesses and more.
Anna David has had books published by HarperCollins and Simon & Schuster and is the founder of Legacy Launch Pad, David is the founder of Legacy Launch Pad Publishing, a boutique, founder-led hybrid book publisher that helps entrepreneurs turn expertise into authority-building books. In other words, she knows both sides—and isn't afraid to share it.
Come find out what traditional publishers don't want you to know.
Unknown Speaker 0:00
Welcome to the show where writers fill
Unknown Speaker 0:07
the tea process and their therapy.
Unknown Speaker 0:11
We'll talk about the money.
Unknown Speaker 0:14
Well, hello there. Welcome to Behind the book cover with your host, Anna David, today, we are continuing to talk to entrepreneurs who very strategically use their books to generate a lot of money and to not care about the book sales. Now today's guest is the legendary Brian Kurtz. He helped build the company boardroom into a $1 billion business with a B with a B, and his book over deliver, which he over delivered on, is basically the holy text for marketers who want to play the long game. So he didn't generate, you know, he didn't sort of gain best seller lists or or focus on how many books he sold, but it generated millions of dollars in business. And he believes what I believe, which is your book is always being launched. He believes in the perpetual launch. And he breaks that down for you and for me. So now I give you. Brian Kurtz,
Unknown Speaker 1:12
well, Brian Kurtz, thank you for being here. Thanks. Thanks for having me. Anna, you know, you know what a big fan I am of you.
Unknown Speaker 1:21
You, you were like when my first interviews after my after I had my stroke,
Unknown Speaker 1:29
jumping right into my personal information here.
Unknown Speaker 1:32
Why not? Because that's what, that's what writing books is about. And so yeah, and I'll always, I'll always honor that, you know that you did that for me, because it got me, you know, starting to talk about it a little bit more, got me back on my feet a little bit more. And, you know, it was, it set me back six months. But that's it, so, but you were one of the you were, you were part of the road to recovery for me. So I always appreciate you. Plus, you know, you're a, you're a great author. You've, you know, spoken to my mastermind. I've seen you at other masterminds all the time, and always, always a friendly face, and someone who I respect for what you do. And I, you know, when you asked me to interview for, you know, this particular project, I thought it would be, it
Unknown Speaker 2:22
would be a good one. So I'm here. Maybe we should just stay on the topic of you praising me because that that felt very good and Okay, good sometimes, because you are so kind and generous to me, it's given me imposter syndrome, seriously, where I'm like, I think Brian, like, thinks I'm more successful than I am. No, no, you can't. You know, imposter syndrome is so interesting. I mean, and we've all gone through it, I don't know anybody who's super successful that has not experienced it. And in fact, I had somebody speak at my mastermind who supposedly took a like a certification and imposter syndrome. I thought she was an imposter for that. No, I'm kidding, but, you know, it was, it was, it's fascinating, because anybody can fall into that trap. And going back to what we're going to be talking about today, you know, writing a book that that is sort of like, I'm not going to say it's imposter proof
Unknown Speaker 3:22
doesn't make you imposter proof, proof, imposter syndrome proof,
Unknown Speaker 3:27
but it might. It does to some extent, because you know when you when you write it down, what you've accomplished, what you've done. I mean, I learned this from Jay Abraham, who wrote the forward to my book. Jay Abraham, great marketing guru, my mentor icon, and he's been my mentor and since the early 1980s and he says, you know, if, if you, if you did it, you have an obligation to teach it, and when you're teaching it, that's gonna, that's gonna give you like imposter syndrome prevention. I think at least it did for me. I mean, I went through imposter syndrome a bunch of times in my career.
Unknown Speaker 4:08
It's so interesting because I think another thing that's relevant is imposter syndrome prevents many people from doing the book if, according to The New York Times, 81% of people want to do a book, and 3% do that. I can't do the math on the spot, but that's a lot of people. And I would bet that a very high percentage don't do it because of imposter syndrome. Definitely a factor. Definitely a factor, you know. But, you know, once you once you get a sense of, you know, I and yet, the thing is to get to a book, and I got to a book through through blog posts of, you know, eight, nine years. And when you start, you have to start somewhere you you know, I always say, and I think you disagree with me when you spoke at my mastermind, because I said, I said something like, you know, writing a book is not a should. I don't believe in shoulds right, but, but everybody.
Unknown Speaker 5:00
Says, oh, you should write a book. Everybody should write a book. And because there are no shoulds, I don't believe that however, everybody should write, whether you're writing a journal to yourself, composing emails and not being half assed about them. I mean, just write, because the more you write. And I mean, you know, and of course, I'm talking about writing on a keyboard, but if you have a good hand, I lost my handwriting after my stroke, so I can't even write that. I can read legibly what I write, but I always type to myself all the time. And I think what gave me the confidence to write a book was my blog posts every week, and the feedback I got from my audience, you know, without that, I don't think I would have had the confidence. You know, you need to, but you need to be out there. And again, some people would say, oh, I should write, but I'm not. I don't think anybody wants to hear what I have to say. Same reason for not writing a book, for writing anything, yeah, some people with their emails are just so sloppy, you know? And I am like every and of course, it means my time management sucks, because I I think about every email that I write to every person.
Unknown Speaker 6:17
It's so interesting. I mean, you are, I would say I've noticed that you are more like that than the average person. Also, because when we were working on winners find ways, I put this book together for Joe Polish, where we took a bunch of, I guess, surveys people had filled out, and I emailed all of them and I said, Hey, can I include this in this book? And they all either said, Yeah, well, I don't remember filling that out, or, or I've got a change. You sent me back the most meticulously edited survey, and I'll never forget that. And, and I wasn't, and I wasn't being meticulous for the sake of being meticulous. It's because if I'm going to have something that's going to be published, and it can be published in, you know, in in a, you know, in a notebook to my kids. But if it's going to be published and published as a covers a lot of areas, right? And you know that, but I just it's like everything is a representation of who you are, what you you know, and I don't know, I probably, I definitely obsess about it too much, but it's who I am, and it's what I do. So you own it. I own it, and what's so. So that's an interesting point, because a lot of people will think say, you know, we know that the guy who I have so much respect for, who who says the 90 minute book talk for 90 minutes and, and I've gone to him and said, I completely disagree with you. If you're putting the book out there, it should be a work of art, if not a work of art, something that you've really put time and energy into. What do you think? You know, I think there's a place for the 90 minute book, and we since, and also the guy behind it is something I really respect and and I love dearly, but it serves a purpose. It's, you know, it's a lead magnet. It's, it's basically get an idea. And I'll tell you, I know a lot of people that the the the 90 minute book was the entry drug to them eventually writing a book. So I think there's a place for it. Is it the book that you were meant to write? Is it the book that you you know that you're going to be super proud of, you'll be proud of the content to some degree. But, you know, a 60 page book is, you know, almost like a big pamphlet. You know what I mean? And so and length doesn't matter. I mean length, you know, you could have a great 90 page book that is, you know, a masterpiece. But I think that I but I do, I do think there's a place and, you know what, people who can't sit down and figure out how they're going to do a 300 page, you know, magnum opus, but they want to do a 90 minute interview and get a get something on paper and get something between in a bond. I mean, just the fact that there's a guy in my mastermind who wrote a book, and he did it. He so published it. It was on, like, cyber, cyber security, and it was, you know, it was a good little book. It was, you know, probably, like 150 200 pages. He didn't do the 90 minute book. Minute Book. He just, he sat down and he wrote the book and and I remember the day he got printed copies, he came on to my Zoom meeting, and he was like crying. He's holding up this book. And you know, that talks to, you know, you know, yes, there's ebooks, and there's Kindle and there's audio books, but you know what a book is, a perfect product. Still, it just is. And when you're when your words are between two covers, and when, and my first book, my my second My first book was not a hardcover book.
Unknown Speaker 10:00
Book. My second book was when I got those first when I got the galley, soft cover, it was okay. When I got that first copy of a hardcover book, I was like, I was crying too, and you don't even realize it. You know, you're holding a piece of your world. You're holding you know your work, and you know it because, I mean, you had a, you had a bestseller with party girl. And so, you know what that's like.
Unknown Speaker 10:25
I always, I hate to clarify, this party girl was not my New York Times bestselling book. I'll try to pass it off like it is, but it was this other book called,
Unknown Speaker 10:37
Oh God, I see. I can't even remember, but this is why, what the hell was it called? By some miracle, I made it out of there and it was a book, yeah. But that is why I hate relying on traditional publishing. Party girls should have been the New York Times best selling book. Like to focus on that rather. Now I say I'd rather have 100 of the right people read my book, than 10,000 of Yes, who won't care? And so, so it's funny, you know, it's so weird about this. My in laws were just here this, this has relevance. And my boyfriend's dad was watching the three back to the futures, one after the other. Wow. I will never forget seeing Back to the Future when I was like 12 years old, and there's a scene where the dad writes a book, and he opens the he opens the box, and he's so excited. And I think that that stayed with me throughout all my books. Do you remember that scene? Yeah, yeah, I do. And it's, it's, it's so you know, it's when you get that I find it like when I did my mastermind, and I get hard copies of the bio books, you know, the spiral bio books. I get goose bumps because, I mean, I grew up. I mean, we already established before you turn the microphone how much older I am than you. But you love to embrace this dinosaur, this dino. Let's talk about your email address. You've got a dinosaur behind you. Yeah, I love it. I love I'm the non extinct dinosaur. But I do, I do think that the idea of physical product, you know, something that's tactile and that never goes away. And so, you know, look, I'm all in on email marketing. I'm all in on AI. I'm in, I'm in, I'm not I'm not resistant at all. But there's nothing like a physical product. And a book is the ultimate if it's your words. So I just, it sounds corny, but I just, I don't know it's, it's something that, and you know what you say, traditional publisher and best sellers. I mean, what's a best seller? To me, my book over deliver is a best seller. I've only sold maybe less than 20,000 copies, or near 20,000 copies, and I've given away a lot of books to my masterminds and everywhere, which I'm sure we're going to talk about a little bit. But I feel like it's a best seller within my world, and people know me for it, and that's all that counts to me. I don't need to be I'm not into fame. I'm into like contribution. And you know that that's so important to me, but let's stop 20,000 copies. I did not know that that is saying amount. I mean, you said less than, but still, yeah, the first, the first printing, was 10,000 that they were sold out. Then I and then it went into paperback. And then
Unknown Speaker 13:42
I, actually, I went to my publisher, Hay House, and I said, you know, you're not gonna, you're not gonna print up my obsession with hardcover books, right? They said. I said, You're not gonna print up any of the hardcover books anymore. They said, No, the book has has, you know, run its course, kind of thing. And I said, Hmm, and then I got into this concept of the perpetual launch. I mean, if you have a book that's timeless, and, you know, people, they launch a book, and, you know, in traditional publishing, they go on a book tour, and they go on all the talk shows and all that shit, right? Well, that's quaint in the 90s, they did now, exactly, not anymore. Now they just get on social media and they, you know, push it out, and there's all kinds of new publicity things they can do. But for me, it was, it was not it was It wasn't about that. It was about,
Unknown Speaker 14:32
I want to have books in inventory so people. And the thing is, if you have a timeless book, which mine is, I mean, I probably could update a few things, add some stuff about AI, things like that, which wasn't that it wasn't all that relevant to what I wrote about anyway, because I was writing about, you know, fundamental marketing, and it applies to everything, including AI. So I but I think that it was, it was a timeless book.
Unknown Speaker 15:00
And I realized the books always being launched. And once I got that into my head, you know, people, they write a book and they launch it, and they think, if it doesn't sell, you know, 30,000 books in two weeks, that it's a disaster. Yeah, you know, I believe in staying power and and my book is, it's funny. Chapter 10 of my book is called the long game, and I've been playing the long game for a long time. And, you know, I'm not looking for quick hits. David Bach, who was just at the Genius Network, who I've known since the 1980s he used to come to dinners at my company and all that. And he had a book called Finish Rich, you know, and it's not it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not how you finish, but the whole journey, it's so worth it and to have, like everything is about quick hits and about, you know, quick get rich quick. Look,
Unknown Speaker 15:55
some people need to get rich quick because they got to pay the rent and and and pay for food. I get that. I'm not, I'm not saying it's wrong to go for quick hits, but I'll always be playing a long game.
Unknown Speaker 16:09
Well, you said so many great things, and then I just got sidetracked, because David Bock was so awesome. I learned so much from him last Yeah, he's great, yeah, but, but so I I'm constantly preaching this, because traditional publishing does get into your head that if you are not successful by Friday of the week your book was released, it's all over. And it's all over because they're releasing 1000s of books, and they've got to move on to one that that did hit that week, right? And I'm always telling my clients, we want layered book sales. Your book is there for the rest of your life. I am right as of this moment, working on the script for party girl you know, which came out in 2007 almost 20 years later. It is still, still a great story. It's like, it's your story, and it's a great story. Good stories don't go out of fashion because the book's not being launched, it just doesn't and, you know, and in fact, I think I said this, you know, in preparation for this interview, you sent that a survey, and I filled it out. But one of the things that was interesting is that the the repurposing of a book, you know, my I mean, it's funny, and it comes full circle. I did eight years of blog posts. The blog post became the book, but I needed a developmental editor to with interstitials, and it needed to have a flow and all of that. I couldn't just throw blog posts and say, Oh, here's my book, but then, but a lot of my blog posts are in the book. Then I found that things that are in the book became new blog posts. That's what I figured I should update the book, because I took, I took a piece of a chapter from my book, brought it back to my blog, and I added a bunch of new stuff based on what's going on today, and
Unknown Speaker 17:57
the content lives. It's a it's a living, breathing being, which you're finding with, you know, party girl now.
Unknown Speaker 18:07
And so your book over deliver. I would say, when you did a launch, I've never seen someone over deliver in the way that you did. Will you talk about all the things you did to launch that book? Well, I over delivered on the the the book, the page that I developed for the book, because, again, you have a book called over deliver. You better over deliver on bonuses, at least. And so, you know, one of the things that I knew going in because my first book I did with Craig Simpson was he's a direct mail guy, and I was his co author on it, and he controlled the publishing of it. Was entrepreneur press. They didn't do much marketing for it. They weren't going to do very much for it at all. And I felt that it was, it was and but we still, I knew anybody who buys a book buys it on Amazon. I'm not going to get the name. Now, you know, both of my books are about direct response marketing. It's about, you know, getting names of buyers so that you can they can buy more from you. It's like, it's not, it's not rocket science. And so if you sell a book on Amazon, yeah, sure, you'll get some sales things, and you'll see your I mean, I was, I think I was number one with over deliver. I was number one in either direct marketing. It wasn't in marketing by far. It was something, it was a subgroup. But I was number one for like, a day or two,
Unknown Speaker 19:35
which I guess is as good as it's going to get for me. But I didn't, I didn't care that much, because I remembered it, so I cared a little bit. But, I mean, I have an ego, but I'm also I was so interested in in getting names of the people that bought the book. So what I did was everywhere that I could, whenever I was on a podcast.
Unknown Speaker 20:00
Yes, and I did a lot of podcast. I did about the tough part for me is that my book came out on April 20, 2019
Unknown Speaker 20:09
and I had a near fatal stroke on April 19, 2019
Unknown Speaker 20:13
so the book was launched the day after I had, well, you know, I was in the hospital when the bull and and, you know, I, I came really close to dying.
Unknown Speaker 20:23
So you know, if that would have happened, I wouldn't have done any more podcasts, I guess, but I had to reschedule a lot of them and all that. But I ended up doing, probably before, during and after,
Unknown Speaker 20:35
definitely, well over 100 podcasts.
Unknown Speaker 20:39
And I still do them. I still do them because, again, I'm on a perpetual launch, and the stories are still timely. And so that's part of the over delivery of the book. But then I set up a site, you know, one of the book sites, where, you know, I encourage people not to go to Amazon directly, but to go to my site, over deliver book, calm, go to the site, check out what I'm going to give you just for buying the book. And then there's a, you know, there's another link to go to Amazon, or Barnes and noble.com or indie books. You hit that, and you go to,
Unknown Speaker 21:15
we'll go to Amazon, and I say, put the order number in. When you opens up a new window, you buy the book, you put the order number in, and you get these amazing bonuses, and I get your name, you know? And that's what I want, because I want to, and I'm not going to spam people. I'm just going to, I want them to be on my blog list. I want them. And what's happened is, I mean, Jeff Walker talks about this with his book launch, you know, he had so many people that ended up joining his masterminds and joining, you know, his PL Product Launch Formula community because of the book so and but you can't get there. You can't get there on Amazon alone, I guess is what I'm saying. And, you know, I'll take Amazon sales. That's fine.
Unknown Speaker 21:59
But regardless, I, you know, saying to people, I don't make any money on the book, and that's why, you know, I got my advance on the book. I haven't earned back that in royalties yet, which is fine, but I want, I want to, I want to continue the relationship. And so that was the over delivery. The over delivery was basically making getting clients for life again, playing a long game, as opposed to, you know, buy the book, buy the book, buy the book. There are so many people that come on my math into my mastermind who have a new book, and I say, okay, so how can people get your book? And they just give out an Amazon link. And I say, All right, if that's what you want to do. I mean, I'm not saying you shouldn't do that, but there's so many other ways. And by the way, the and then the bonuses themselves at over deliver book.com
Unknown Speaker 22:50
I have to admit, were like, ridiculous. It was like, and I I overdid it because I have, like, I have 19 keynote speeches that Jay Abraham has given, videos on that you can download. I have two PDFs of classic books on direct mail that are out of print by two of my gurus, my heroes in the business, and you can just download it a PDF of both books. I've got, like a swipe file from Dan Kennedy. I've got, you know, all the greats of marketing,
Unknown Speaker 23:28
and I have videos from my event in 2014
Unknown Speaker 23:32
with all like mentors and friends. And it was such a I mean, after I had my stroke, I might have said this in the interview we did previously, but after I had my stroke, I was lying in the hospital bed alive, of course, and I said, Wow, if I had died, like, what would my footprint have been? And it wasn't the book, it was. It was the site over deliver book calm, because it also had all the endorsements from like, you know, 20 different people who meant so much to my career in my life. So as long as you know, someone could pay for the GoDaddy bill on the URL that would be my footprint for a longer time, maybe than even the book. So, you know, but the book, I guess the key is here to the you know, books reverberate, you know, and you know this better than anybody you know, they reverberate. They they just keep on. I think you talk about layering. I like that. You know, there's like, layers of a book. It's not just, you know, pages between hard covers or soft covers. And now you see it, now you don't and and again, the repurposing back into my blog posts, and getting feedback from people who own my book, and they read a blog post that was based on something that was in the book, and they're saying, Wow, that was a great angle on that. I mean, that fills me up. And you know, why not be filled up whether I'm filled up with cash?
Unknown Speaker 25:00
Much or I'm filled up with enthusiasm and and happiness and joy. Either one is fine with me, well and, and. So what I think is really important to point out is that what you did that was really smart, is you got the Amazon sale, but you got the email too. A lot of people will kind of try to stay outside of Amazon and say, buy this book for me directly, so they can capture the email address. But when you do the bonus, you know, I wonder if Tim Ferriss was kind of the first to do this. He just did it exquisitely where he's like, if you buy 50 copies, I'll fly you to, you know, Monaco and have dinner with you. Like crazy thing, yeah, hermosi, Alex hermosi, just did a, like, $100 million book launch, or, and course, launch. And he, he had this whole thing where you buy 100 books. It was, it was an amazing launch, I mean, and the book was just, it was the focal point. But it wasn't, you know, was like, it was like everything around it became, and he really turned it into a huge profit center immediately, yeah, yeah, so, and that is something that, if your audience is, I mean, everybody likes a bonus. Everybody likes, oh my god, if I buy this, I'll get that. And buying 100 copies, oftentimes is not going to be that expensive, because the author has arranged for you to get them at a discount and write all of these things. So let's talk about when you get filled up with money from a book. So you said it feels like that you've made millions, or, you know, and it feels like more. Well, tell me how that's happened. And this will sound blasphemous, because I'm a direct marketer, so direct marketing is measurable marketing ROI like you get ROI on everything you do, whether it's media, whether it's whether it's, you know, Facebook advertising, direct mail or a book, anything should have an ROI for what you spent on it. In this case,
Unknown Speaker 27:07
there's so much you know, karma that you create with a book. I mean, all I know is are the millions my business made, which didn't necessarily correspond to direct sales that I could I could pinpoint, and I know that for a fact that once I dedicated myself, and it was actually before my book, there was a there's a copywriter I know, and he wrote a blog post, and he said, and He had, like, a daily email that he sent out. And he said he realized one day he got up and he said, you know, he was doing courses. He had a mastermind. He was making good money. And he said, you know, he said the most important thing I do in my business is write my blog post in the morning. So he dedicates, you know, from 7am to 10am every day, he writes his his blog post, email, whatever, because he knows that's going to pay dividends, either today, tomorrow or a week a month a year down the road. And everything doesn't have to be a sales email,
Unknown Speaker 28:23
you know, and interesting, he never wrote a book, which I always wondered why he wouldn't wasn't a should, but wasn't a should for him anyway.
Unknown Speaker 28:32
But I remember then thinking about that. And over the like eight years, I was writing my blog. At some point I was before I actually, probably when I was assembling over deliver from my blogs. I think what happened was I said I did a blog post that said the most important thing I do in my business, and I kind of repeated what he said, which is, I write every day, and you know, you don't know where the sale is going to come from. If you, if you buy, if you buy media on Facebook, and you don't make any sales, stop buying media on Facebook. I mean, that's, that's the simple way to look at it. But when you're writing and you're publishing a book, you can't do that. You can't if you start, if you, as you said, you know if, when the publisher says, you know, if you don't, if you don't make $100,000
Unknown Speaker 29:25
in a week or sell 50,000 books in a month, you know it's a failure, right? All right, if that's the way you want to look at it, it's fine with me, but all I know is that and, and I think while good will, you can't deposit in a bank account, Goodwill you can deposit in a relationship capital account. And I learned that from Jay Abraham. He talks about relationship capital. It's not your list, it's your relationship capital. And a book
Unknown Speaker 29:58
like basically.
Unknown Speaker 30:00
It makes people love you and you love them. They get inside. I mean, I'm sure you get, you probably got so many emails and outpouring when you wrote both of your books, or those two that we're talking about of yours, yeah, and that, that, that will, that will yield money at some point. Yeah, and I mean, Joe Polish and Dan Sullivan talk about the five ways you get paid, and the fifth is cash, but you get paid through appreciation and and referral and all the other things. Can it be cash immediately? No, but I think I I don't want to say cash is overrated. I don't want to say that because, you know, I know that this was like, Okay, did your book make me make you a million dollars? I i say it did because I've made millions in my business every year, and I know that my writing and my books have contributed greatly to it, and over time, a million of it can easily be attributed to it. It sounds like a wishy washy way to put it, but I wouldn't have had it any other way. And I'm not just I'm not just hallucinating about this. Yeah, I, I,
Unknown Speaker 31:23
I was just saying this to somebody else, because it can feel like the beast you always have to feed. And many people do talk about this with social media and podcasts and books, but you know, like you said, repurposing books for all of those things, the truth is, it is a beast you always have to feed, in a way. But I have friends who want to start businesses, and they were like, Oh, should I put up an Instagram story or a post? And I'm like, you have to be so into your topic that you will talk about it on every medium, write about it in every medium, and never stop and get over that self consciousness and that imposter syndrome. Because, you know, what do you guys talk about? How you need the seven points of contact for somebody to buy from you? Is that what it is? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, we're, we're somebody is, if you have a high end service, and you should, if I can give any business advice, it's try to sell something expensive to fewer people, rather than something inexpensive to lots of people. That you can get there through. You can get there through ascension or descension, but you need, you know you need. It's funny, when I was at my company boardroom before I went out on my own, I was on a
Unknown Speaker 32:37
I was on a panel with Paris and propolis and two other copyright I know, you know, Paris, yeah, and so, and a couple other copywriters and Paris titled The because it was about, it was about the history of my, my work at boardroom, and I was there for 34 years. We sold a lot of books and subscriptions at $39 each. And we also sold well over a billion dollars worth of business when I was there and so Paris titled The panel selling, selling a billion dollars worth of business, $39 at a time. And it was both a lesson in
Unknown Speaker 33:17
a lesson in futility
Unknown Speaker 33:20
and a lesson in abundance too. Because you can, back then, in the 80s and 90s, you could do it. Now it's like, it's, as you said, it's so much easier. I mean, I never did ascension at boardroom. I mean, I'm embarrassed to say it now,
Unknown Speaker 33:36
but we had a lot of cross selling. You know, people would buy a $39 product, and they buy a $39 product that had renewals to it. So there was a lot of money being it wasn't just $39 but it was $39 at a time we never had like $1,000 product, a $1,500 product, a $2,000 nothing. So as soon as I went on my own, the first thing I did, because I had a relationship capital account that I had people who have been following me for years, for 34 years, and I was at, I was at a company. I was, you know, an owner, but I was at a company, and I went out on my own, and I said, You know what, I'm going to start with a decention program. I'm not going to start at $39 I'm going to start at $25,000
Unknown Speaker 34:20
and so I launched the mastermind because Joe Polish had his $25,000 group, and I knew I could do that in my own way. And I got immediately, within like two months, I had 25 members in my $25,000 mastermind. That's a business, that's a business, plus with amazing margins. You know, it's like, at least some people get 70% margins on masterminds. I was spending a little bit more money, so I was getting a 40% margin, but it was like, this is like, this is like, fantastic. And I'm selling what I'm I'm only selling what I've done for the last 34 years, but I'm selling.
Unknown Speaker 35:00
It, as you know, coaching education that way, as opposed to all about product. And I realized that that having a few at a high price, I learned the lesson. I learned the lesson that that you're you're, you're you're talking about, but I learned it quickly, as soon as I went out of my own because I didn't want to, and now it's funny, because I've come back the other way, where now I do have a look, my low price product is $125
Unknown Speaker 35:29
I sell a book, a classic book, for under $25 that book then leads to a boot camp for 397
Unknown Speaker 35:37
and then a mastermind for 2000
Unknown Speaker 35:40
now that is an attritional ascension program, but I launched my business on a decention program.
Unknown Speaker 35:50
It's fascinating because when I first started exploring marketing, let's say it was like 2015
Unknown Speaker 35:57
maybe really late,
Unknown Speaker 36:00
and all those people were out there preaching, sell courses for $39 you'll get rich. And I tried and I tried and I kept, you know, hitting my head against the wall and getting very, I would say, unappreciative clients and customers. And also the one of the reasons they sold people on that is that, because everything was digital, and so it was no cost of goods. Remember physical product? Remember I talked about tactile you didn't have to deal with that, but, yeah, it's still, you still have to create incredible value, even for a low ticket. But that, by the time I was doing it, it was hard to get people to watch courses for free. I was just too late, and I really believed the hype. And if I have one regret, it is that I spent so long trying to do that because I was really in the mentality that that I didn't deserve more money. And I what I meeting Joe and all of you, I was introduced to this concept that, you know, you could say I was so used to saying it's my course is $60 and people complaining that it was too much. And then I'm introduced to this world where I say, Well, my product $60,000 and their response is one payment or two, or is that all? I didn't know there were people like that in the world, and I understand that most people don't know that. If you're not lucky enough to meet a Joe Polish, who introduces you to this community, so you are worth so much more Absolutely. Then, then you probably think, and if you're listening to this and going $25,000
Unknown Speaker 37:32
for a mastermind who would pay that, well, listen to what Brian's saying, which is, it didn't happen overnight. There were years and decades, he put in to get that relationship capital so that he could do that. And then, and then, you know, and then, once I had it, you know, creating my two books. And then, going back to what we're talking about today, was really books, the books, like, just fed in completely into what I was doing to get new members. I mean, think about it, you know, if, if, if someone came into my mastermind because of my book, that's, that's $25,000 immediately, you know, and four of them is 100
Unknown Speaker 38:17
and then 40 of them over time, that's a million, right? Did I do the math? Right? Yeah, you're asking me, I can't even calculate our time, right? Right? Yeah, so, so, yeah, so 2025,
Unknown Speaker 38:31
times four is 100 times 10, yeah. So four. Now, did I get 40 mastermind members because of my book? Not maybe not directly, but I probably got 10 or 12. So that's a good chunk of the million dollars right there. So it's like, you know, a million dollars is like, I don't know. It's sort of like that number, you know, millionaire and all that. I just think, I don't know being a millionaire is overrated.
Unknown Speaker 39:02
I'm not saying that flippantly. I'm not saying that, you know, people deserve what they get, and I'm fine with that, but I don't think
Unknown Speaker 39:13
again. It's the idea of getting rich slowly as opposed to getting getting rich quick, and I think you have to, and you said it, you know, figuring out what you have to assess your assets all the time. What are my assets? My assets are, you know, they're, they're your what you've written, they're your lists. They're your customers. They're your clients, both present and previous. They're all these assets that you have, and if you've, if you've
Unknown Speaker 39:43
cultivated them properly and curated them properly, you're going to end up with not just a list, but, you know, true relationship capital, which compounds interest. It's not like it's cumulative. It's like, you know, it's not like you add a price.
Unknown Speaker 40:00
Person to your to your network, and you put them in on your list, and then six months later, I'm going to go sell them something. You can do it that way, but if you're going to sell high ticket over time, you need to romance them a little bit, you know? Yeah, I was once on a I was once on a live cast, and
Unknown Speaker 40:18
the the host asked all the people that came on one question. They said, how do you use social media in your business? And I said, I thought about it. I didn't have an answer going in, because they didn't give us the one question they were going to ask 30 different entrepreneurs. So I just was off the cuff, but it was a good answer because it was what I was from my heart. I said, I, I, I I use social media to get people onto my email list, and then I romance them. That was my answer. And what that means is that, you know, I'm going to curate them in a way that they never going to, never going to want to leave me. And I have that attitude, both in terms of my mastermind in terms of no not when I was selling $39
Unknown Speaker 41:04
subscriptions at boardroom, and we had a million circulation if I, if I freaked out of every person who didn't renew their subscription, I would have been in bad shape, right? But, you know, I treat, I treat everybody in my current mastermind, which is $2,000 a year when they don't renew, I don't just let them go. I always want to know why. You know, and it's okay. You can tell me, tell me the bad news about me, or the program, or whatever. But anybody who doesn't do exit interviews on people who leave them not not being bitter. Most people get bitter. Oh, they're leaving me. Fuck them, you know, kind of thing.
Unknown Speaker 41:42
That's not how I play the game. I play the game, you know, for education. And a lot of times I save them because they I could put them on an installment plan as a down sell or something. And I actually saved people because it was financial and they couldn't afford it. So I think that, you know, you have to treat, you know, listserv people too. And you know, everybody's a human and of course, in these days, you know, after covid, when, you know, we were all locked, locked at home for a good period of time, and everybody said it'd live events, and we were just at an amazing live event. I mean, they're not over by any means. They're different. Now, it is a little different since covid, but people want the human to human contact, so, but you got to do it. And again, what you said before was really resonated with me, when you said you have to do the work over a long period of time to be able to have a book that will make you, and I'm putting that in quotes, a million dollars.
Unknown Speaker 42:45
Yeah. I mean, Jay Abraham tells that anecdote about Picasso, the one where somebody comes up came up to Picasso and said, you know, will you sign my napkin? And he did a little drawing and turned to them. I assume this isn't apocryphal. I think it's true. And said, you know, that'll be $60,000 or whatever, 6000 and she said, Well, it took a second. He goes, No, it didn't. It took 50 years, right, right? It's, it's about that experience, yeah, there's another one with, like, you know, the plumber comes to your house and your thing is flooded, and he takes the wrench, and he types, taps the pipe twice, and everything's fixed. And he goes, How much is that going to be? And it's like, you know, $30,000
Unknown Speaker 43:31
you were here for like, five minutes, but no, I knew what. You didn't have anybody else who knew where to hit the pipe. Right, right? Yeah, that I love that I love it. And even if it's apocryphal, it's kind of true. I mean, that's, that's how, that's how greatness happens over time. Yeah, doesn't happen immediately. I have this concept of had a blog post that it's never asked from nowhere.
Unknown Speaker 43:59
And as I've as I get older, and I am getting older by the minute, you're not aging me though. You know,
Unknown Speaker 44:07
I ask a lot of you, yeah, yeah. You can see I'm really fatigued.
Unknown Speaker 44:13
So it's, it's like, I don't, I lost my train of thought. See, that's why I'm old. What was I saying as you get older? Oh, god, Oh, God. It had to do with doing things for a long period of time and shit. I had a good thought.
Unknown Speaker 44:33
It'll occur to you later, yeah, it will. And you know what, when it does, text me and I'll put it in the intro.
Unknown Speaker 44:40
Okay? And we have to wrap up. So, So Brian, if people want to find you and find out more about you and and get over deliver where, where should they go? Well, definitely don't go directly to Amazon. Go to over deliver book. Calm.
Unknown Speaker 44:53
And if you, if you don't want to spend $20 on a book that I don't make any money on.
Unknown Speaker 45:01
And then you can for free. You can go to Brian kurtz.net
Unknown Speaker 45:05
you can sign up for my weekly blog. And there's a lot of free content on my site. All of my blogs going back to 2014
Unknown Speaker 45:15
so it's a lot of good content, usable content, a lot of marketing content.
Unknown Speaker 45:21
And yeah, I, you know, I'm, I'm just,
Unknown Speaker 45:27
I'm just, I'm living the life that's, that's what I'm doing. It's just so good. Thank you, Brian, thanks you guys for listening. Talk to you next time. Thanks.
Unknown Speaker 45:38
Thanks for listening to behind the book cover. If you loved it, I hope you'll consider liking and subscribing, because it helps more people find the show and look you can like and subscribe even if you only liked and didn't love it, but if you hated it, you can skip the review. Or who am I kidding? I'll take one from you too.
Unknown Speaker 45:58
Research rabbit hole
Unknown Speaker 46:01
behind the book cover. Let's get weird asking the questions that you've always feared.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai