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A weekly podcast about the forces shaping politics, power and technology, and how they affect you.
Matt Kendall (00:00)
make no mistake. If Russia leaves Ukraine, then the war is over. If Ukraine surrenders or Russia beats Ukraine, then the war isn't over. It then becomes a question of which country Putin is going to invade next.
Matt Kendall (00:17)
Hello and welcome to Worth Knowing, a weekly podcast about the forces affecting politics, power and technology and how they affect you. I'm Matt Kendall.
Elliot Costello (00:26)
And Elliot Costello.
Matt Kendall (00:29)
Elliot, it's been a massive week or few weeks of news involving Russia. And while we're definitely not a the kind of podcast that does breaking news or hot takes, it did make me realise it was a be been a bit remiss of us that we haven't done an episode on Russia. and if we're talking about Russia and power, there's obviously there's no separating Russia and Putin. but it's been
A a massive few weeks of news on that front, wouldn't you agree?
Elliot Costello (01:00)
Massive few weeks, massive few days, massive few hours. yeah, I mean Russia and the implications of its attack on Ukraine and the engagement now with the White House has been global news the world over. so I guess very quick timeline to catch up, people. we have the midterms now three weeks away. It is the the focus of all things Trump.
very apprehensive about where opinion polls are sitting. the number one issue is, of course, the price of gasoline. It's always a motivating factor for many voters, certainly Americans who are feeling the pinch of the supply chain choking, given the war they decided to launch on Iran in February. so that's led to Trump doing a bit of a backflip and breaking his own sanctions.
Which is now left to lifting these sanctions on Russia so he can buy diesel from Russia. the irony is he ran India through hot over hot coals because of their supply chain agreements with Russia. so thrown that all out and said, you know, we don't care about the rules we set. so has bought diesel direct from Russia. the estimated volume of diesel they've actually bought is equivalent to fourteen hours. So
you're not talking about a day or a few days or a few weeks supply. It's 14 hours. So it shows how desperate Trump is to increase supply leading into the midterms. there was this sort of back and forth, that's gonna lead to a slowing down or at least a cessation of of of bombing of on refineries. that's been the opposite. there's been an increased amount of attacks from both parties.
That's led to refineries being hit and even data centers, somewhere the bok farms sit in Russia. so tensions are escalating. What's been really illuminating and concerning is America's effectively taken aside now. it has come out and positioned itself as basically an ally for Russia. Zelensky said as much on a Pierce Morgan interview earlier this week.
where we were two years ago, even a few months ago, under Trump, is now quite concerning to see that this side be taken. You're willing to engage in commerce and willing to s take a side. we are hearing reports too that the White House has ordered the Star Shield to be taken down, and that's the information system run by the Pentagon, obviously through Elon's company.
To provide military intelligence, weaponry, and communications for Ukraine. So we've done an episode on America being an unreliable partner. we won't pierce back into that right now, but this is true evidence of how alarming it is for Western nations, certainly Ukraine at the moment, to have an unreliable friend in the White House.
Matt Kendall (04:13)
Yeah, it's it's wild and very concerning. And you know, there there has been a lot of rumors around Trump and Russia, you know, the whole Russia, Russia, Russia hoax and the Mueller report and everything from him being a Manchurian candidate, you know, a a Russian agent that's been that's been cultivated by Russia over the decades, through to Putin having compromise on him, through to him just being a useful idiot, where
Putin kinda has his number and is able to manipulate him easily. But look, if I was an author writing a spy thriller about a U a US president who was an agent for Russia, that you probably have him acting the way Trump is now. so we you have to ask how
Elliot Costello (04:58)
Mm. You might make the
you might make the president a little bit more intelligent if you're an author, man. I'm sure I'm sure you'd script it in
Matt Kendall (05:05)
Yeah.
Elliot Costello (05:05)
a different manner.
Matt Kendall (05:06)
No, unless I was writing an absurdist comedy. but I you you do have to ask how the hell we got here. and as regular listeners to this pod would know, we like to do a bit of a brief history. and I think really it has to for this, you have to go back into to Putin's history. I'm not gonna do a potted history. We haven't got time here, and I know you have to leave Elliot. But
There's a a really good book by one of my heroes, John Sweeney, who's a war correspondent. he's such a a wonderful he's he's seen s some of the most horrible things. and it it seems that he's it's only strengthened and deepened his humanity. some of you might remember him from the outbreak of the Ukraine war. He's got a beer he's sort of a a a vuncular beard and he wears his orange beanie to support Ukraine.
but he wrote a book called Killer in the Kremlin. And it's if you really want to get a read on the kind of man Putin is, it's an incredible read. And he goes all the way back to Putin's childhood. You know, he was b essentially a bit of a street thug, right, you know, on the streets of St. Petersburg. and he had a fairly lackluster career moving through the ranks of the KGB, where he ended up in Dresden in East Germany, which is a bit of a backwater during the Soviet era.
when the Soviet the the Soviet Union fell and a big mob turned up at the at the at the compound that he was at and he was waiting for orders and there's this kind of for apparently a very formative experience for him that Moscow was silent. and that really sort of formulated him that he never wanted to be reliant on anyone again or had to have to take orders from anyone again. Fast forward into his political career and he qu very quickly moved through the ranks
And then once he started to get into power, had this kind of modus operandi of basically taking out his opposition by any means possible. you know, from outright assassination, you know, poison, to you know, there's a lot of people falling out of windows in Russia, plane crashes, through to just compromise. I mentioned compromise before. you know, there's rumors that that Putin has compromit on Trump where he would
set up honey traps or just, you know, have spies follow people and get photographic evidence or even just make it up sometimes it's some of his some of his enemies. and I guess why I'm I'm sharing all this is I i in in reading this book that of John Sweeney's I've kind of I saw this modus operandi essentially play out in terms of how Russia has destabilized the the Western neoliberal order.
There's also a really good documentary called Hypernormalization by Adam Curtis, where he sort of talks about how towards the end of the Soviet Union there was just this kind of hypernormalization where nothing was real. The government was kind of sending out all this propaganda. They were lying. Everyone knew they were lying. Nobody knew what to believe anymore. And essentially what I think Putin did in order to destabilize the West, because he wasn't able to
Militarily do that. America was too strong. England was too strong. So instead of, you know, a military invasion, it was almost an invasion of reality.
where he set up the IRA, which is the Internet Research Agency, which wasn't necessarily going out there trying to make people pro-Russia. It was almost set up like a content company where they had a brief to essentially go out there and find where the where there was division. you know, America it didn't make America racist, it didn't make England Eurosceptic, but just to essentially
find where there were divisions in strong Western democracies and essentially like throw fuel on the fire to accelerate those conflagrations. and essentially poison the well of our information and therefore our democracy. so I guess that's a that's a thesis. We've seen a lot of this play out and a lot of people copy this playbook. and it's I suppose a thesis to that I'm making here.
is that one of the reasons we've got here is that Putin has essentially exported this kind of Russian flood you know, th people would have heard in terms of Trump flood the zone with shit. I mean that really did start to begin in the Soviet Union and with Putin.
Elliot Costello (09:42)
Yeah, it's a it's a big thesis and it's accurate. I think we've just ruled a line through you ever getting into Russia, Matt. So I hope you had no pl trouble plans to Russia in the next couple of years. Whatever whatever dreams Kirty had of ever going to St. Petersburg and having a a winter over there is long gone. you'll be stopped at the b
Matt Kendall (10:07)
Hi RA.
Elliot Costello (10:09)
you'll be stopped at the border and
you know, maybe returned if you're lucky. I mean, jokes aside, that Russia has bigger problems to to contend with than Matt Kendall from Northern Rivers. but the the thesis is accurate. you know, late Soviet propaganda created this world where the state lied and everybody knew it and everybody accepted it.
And it s has became it became the norm. and it's funny that, you know, you know, you when you talk to to Russians about you know, propaganda, let alone, you know, their news service, we had this belief, you know, certainly growing up that the news told the truth. that there was good information and real information and other information.
and how that erosion's now flowed through to our s forms of media. some very reputable good forms of media that don't lie, but private interest has created the illusion of truth and the opinion of truth that is is quite clear. less state propaganda certainly in the country we reside, but certainly commercial interest and political interest.
Was that a factor of Russia? Not completely, but it's following the same rule book and and playbook. I think you know what's really interesting when you when you touched upon this sort of exploitation of opportunity that Russia's done really well. these systematic issues that existed in America, in the West, certainly Britain, Western societies, Russia isn't responsible for the the
the chasms between left and right in the US, Democrats and Republicans. It it's not responsible for the prevailing British opinion of Euroskepticism, as you note. it it hasn't, you know, created the the cracks and the perverse incentives in big tech. It's not at all responsible
for these things. But it's it's the militancy and the opportunity, as you said, to use those cracks and exploit them. And the way it's gotten away with it without being called out, and certain circles and segments have called it out, but the way it gets away with it without big tech changing its algorithm, without the American government waking up and calling bluff.
Britain may be a better example of of calling part of it out. more recently than not. we have a a a British work colleague, Ed Ed Whitehead, I'd sit next to him in the office. I sat next to him when I read the announcement this week that, you know, the the new UK Prime Minister Andy Burnham's come out and said explicitly that Russia interfered with Brexit in two thousand and sixteen.
I was in London in 2016 for six months. the only issue anyone talked about was Brexit. ten years on, which is staggering, ten years on, a British Prime Minister's come out and said that Russia interfered. He's not responsible for Brexit, but created part of that system that it it changed public opinion and exploited you know, the the narrative that
Brits were being ripped off by Europe and this was a bad deal and something had to be done. Now that was I think immediately attacked by the usual pro-Brexiteers. so you have Farage's and and Boris Johnson's, but it also was then reinforced and certainly confirmed by MI5, who did confirm that through British intelligence that Russia played a role in t interfering with Brexit. So if you think about that for a moment.
Britain is now willing at in its new Prime Minister under Andy Burnham to call this out and call this out globally and have it reinforced by the British intelligence. And America's going the other direction. Buying diesel, lifting sanctions, you know, certainly destabilizing some of the intellectual infrastructure in place to support Russia's adversarial in Ukraine.
Matt Kendall (14:38)
Yeah, like it's once again, it's just it's I I I've it's kind of maddening. I'm watching it unfold and I I feel like it it's I I I'm just like reality is becoming untethered. just and just sorry, interestingly, just to quickly go back to the whole Brexit discussion, you know, reform and I think Boris Johnson sort of came out and attacked Andy Burnham. And it was in I was listening to the the podcast that he said it on was the rest is politics with with Alistair Campbell.
And Rory Stewart and Alistair Campbell and the follow-up episode said, I didn't try I didn't drag it out of him and he didn't slip up. He seems to think that he sort of he's mentioned it because you know Andy Burnham is basically saying, you know, we we kind of need to join back into to EU. there was an interesting quote from George Mombio sort of saying, Of course, Russia had a hand in this and and wanted to to foment that kind of division because it da it would damage the UK.
And it would damage Europe. And I think the past two years has shown that both of those has been the case and that Putin was right. And it has paid off. And the other area that it has paid off in, it obviously is in America. and this is another one where there is pl there is so much evidence that they put their thumbs on the scale. While it was never proven in the in the Mueller report that there was an actual conspiracy between the two, there were meetings between the two at Trump Tower with Manafort and
and and Don Jr. and a and a r and a Russian and a and a and a Russian lawyer.
Elliot Costello (16:08)
You've got a good memory. I forgot that. S so
much has happened between then and now. like it's amazing that you can trace your mind back to that. Like it
Matt Kendall (16:15)
yeah. Yeah. And the and the the
key, the key to all this is this kind of and it's another Putin signature, is this plausible dynab plausible deniability. It's
Elliot Costello (16:26)
Mm.
Matt Kendall (16:26)
just this kind of like, hey, you know, no, it's just it might look like that, but it's not like that. and then obviously there was there has been for through the Mueller report, there was plenty of evidence that the IRA was essentially setting up, you know, they were set they were basically setting up pages of Texan separatists.
anti LGBTQI. though it they even there was one example where they set up pages and protest groups on the same street on the opposite sides. and essentially fermenting all of this you know division and polarization. and then even more recently that would that was in 2016 you know even more recently the tenant media it was found that there were Russian agents paying
well known and they claim that they didn't know, but they were playing well-known American right-wing influences like Tim Poole and Dave Rubin to essentially talk through you know basically launder Russian talking points. And another example of it is Boris Johnson and Reform off the back of d Andy Burnham's comments essentially just delivered Russian talking points about how it was a lie and there was no evidence.
before MI5 then came out and said and backed up Andy Burnham. And now we've seen the White House throughout the since they've come into power.
Elliot Costello (17:51)
Which would be f which would be staggering
to see what response Boris and Farage take to that because I mean there's precedent for certain US political partisan politics to go against i US intelligence and say, Well, that's not right and you know, my opinion's, you know, the correct one. I I'll be staggered to see what Boris and Farage do.
in response to that. Will they will they contend with MI five and run, you know, the Russian narrative or their narrative, whatever you want to call it? Or will they accept that and back down? I think that'll be compelling
Matt Kendall (18:34)
Yeah, I mean once it
once again, I think the the I think the official government line is that it didn't affect the outcome. But of course the the the the government would s the British government would say that. but I you know I I I imagine they'll sort of go down that line. but you know in in terms of America I've just
Elliot Costello (18:52)
But the Mu Muller report said
that too. The Mueller report did say that it, you know, it didn't affect the outcome and the Trump campaign there wasn't an accusation that there were the Trump campaign was aware. it it it stopped short of saying there was collusion.
Matt Kendall (19:09)
Well, but they can't you what, they can't say that 'cause then it's basically a diplomatic almost admission that tr that that Putin was successful. When so I that's what I mean. It's kinda like even if they did think that, they're not gonna say that in their report. So and I feel like, you know, when you look at America, that messaging, those talk Russian talking points so consistently coming out of the White House, you know, he you know, Trump attacks Zelensky and then rolls out the red carpet for for for for Putin.
And so you do really do have to wonder what is going on there and that power that Putin has over Trump. And there's that there was that meeting in with Putin over
Elliot Costello (19:52)
I five
I five has talked about this too, and I'm we're kind of connecting all the conversation together, but I I five has talked about the the honeypot and the evidence that the Kremlin holds over Trump. That that that was probably
Matt Kendall (20:05)
Yeah. I mean,
yeah, no one's no one's seen it. But I d I'm just reminded of that meeting where yeah. But the yeah, but do you remember
Elliot Costello (20:10)
Of course no one's seen it, but that's the power that Putin holds. It like
Matt Kendall (20:15)
that meeting where Trump walked out? Because Trump, you know, Mr. Swagger, but there's body language just spoke volumes. He came out of that meeting with Putin and he looked like a beaten dog. and then there was reporting from that meeting where Trump's team came out and though it the reporting said they were ash and face.
I guess we'll never know w what went down in that meeting, what they have on him. But there's it's clear he's become a puppet of sorts. Even if it even if we just go, look, he's just obviously a master manipulator and knows how to manipulate Trump. I mean, the actions that we've seen transpire are really you know, Trump is in clearly enthrall Putin.
Elliot Costello (21:01)
Yeah,
I should confess, dad has met Putin. he's probably more welcome in in Russia than than me, certainly after this episode goes live. so Australia held the G seven so it was when Julie Gillard was Prime Minister, so probably about twenty twelve.
And it ran a C twenty alongside so it was a G twenty. I I said G seven, I meant the G twenty. It ran a C twenty alongside the G twenty. so a sort of community civil society went really well. Gillard was the first in the world to do it. So you had your, you know, your core state leaders and economic leaders and checkers of of council and obviously your treasurers and everyone else there, but your civil leaders that ran this sort of parallel
conference and it went great. Russia was hosting the G twenty back back, you know, when it was part of these circles and, you know, an active member of the the sort of global community. but Russia held it the following year and flew out Dad who was running the the C20 in Australia requested by Julia Gillard, our then Prime Minister, and spent a few days in Russia and had an afternoon with Vladimir.
he was down at I should know, I should have looked it up, but there's a certain term for a holiday house in Russian and and dad went down in Russia and and dad went down and stayed at one of Putin's holiday homes. Dad said,
Matt Kendall (22:43)
Definitely would have been a bug in his bedroom, that's for sure.
Elliot Costello (22:46)
Well,
it wasn't a honey trap. I'm led to believe that he's not under the thumb of Putin. So
Matt Kendall (22:49)
Yeah.
Elliot Costello (22:51)
yeah, the the the the Christian minister ethics run run high.
Matt Kendall (22:54)
Yeah. He's safe as houses, yeah.
Elliot Costello (23:01)
so I just recall talking to dad and he's talked openly about his experience meeting Putin, but he said he's probably the most intelligent person he's ever met. he commonly spoke in Russian, even though he had
Perfect English, but that was a lot about pride and his
Matt Kendall (23:19)
Power.
Elliot Costello (23:19)
and power. he understood everything that dad and others were saying, but he would respond in Russian. dad said it was during the evening when he had this conversation. Obviously, he knew who everyone was in the room, and he said, you're, you know, former Christian minister, started talking about theology, had a great grasp of theology. He then went a step further and started asking him questions on Australian history.
And dad's a son of an Australian history teacher, 33 years teaching Australian history. It's a love of all Costellos. He said Putin's understanding of Australian history was remarkable. The questions he had, the leaders he knew, the history. and dad, you know, went toe to toe, but was just blown away at the level of insight he had. And and sure, you can be briefed and have advisors and everything else, but you have to retain that information and carry the conversation.
So y you go back to the Putin versus Trump conversations. Whatever means to acquire that power is there, but you have to have a level of intellect which he does hold compared to sitting next to and across from a leader who doesn't carry that degree of intellect, even though he's a stable genius in his own words.
Matt Kendall (24:34)
Yeah, he's he's probably one of the darker characters to emerge in in history since World War Two. it's an yeah, it's a very dark, malicious, but powerful intelligence that he's got. And I think the results of this strategy of destabilization of of the West. I mean, you think about how strong Western democracies were in the nineties and look where we are now are now. And I can't I'm not saying that he is responsible for it, but my God, he
put his thumb on the scale and a lot of his strategies are now being deployed by other parties to create even more division. So it's almost like he's he was the like the icebreaker. He broke through the ice and has show or Moses and the Red Sea, the parting of the Red Sea and leading the like he's just basically created this pathway that I think a lot of agitators have
you know, cottoned onto and you know, you know, we can even look at what's happening here in Australia, just to bring it home for a second, and the rise of one nation. A lot of it has been proven a lot of the online support has been proven to be synthetic. and you know, there were all these Facebook pages being run out of Philippines, attacking Albos, supporting Pauline. there's all sorts of
sock puppet dark PR and and and and bot activity when you're on social and you post about one nation. I go in there and I check these accounts. They are absolutely definitely bots. It's so murky. The money trail is really quite murky. so we don't really know where it's coming from, but it's there and it's very well funded. and there's increasing evidence that there is a essentially a a far right network that has essentially just
It's not like they're in cahoots with Putin. They're not having meetings with him in in Moscow about this stuff. But they've just kind of gone, yeah, let's just sweep in behind that. And, you know, you know, whether it's ad Advance Australia, whether it's the the Atlas Group, which is a a big sort of you
Elliot Costello (26:42)
Yeah.
Matt Kendall (26:42)
know right wing network of think tanks and funders, everyone from fossil fuel companies to you know
Big big tech companies are complicit in their own way as well, because they they could be controlling this kind of bot traffic, but they don't. And essentially what has happened is he was the tr Putin was the innovator. He created this playbook, this pathway, this harnessing of social technology, misinformation, disinformation, and and content that which is now being supercharged by deep fakes and AI driven bots. So I sometimes I don't even know. I've I've been I've had arguments.
With people online. And I've gone, hold on a second. And it's it's this weird kind of approach where they they disagree with you in a really reasonable way initially. And so can you know and I like having a reasonable debate with people online. I then respond and then it becomes increasingly unhinged. And then I click in and look at that account. It's you know, they've all got five to seventy-five followers, they've been around for a couple of months, they've got no posts, and then all the replies are basically the same.
And you know, it's this is this is the world we're in at the moment. And you know, I I do
Elliot Costello (27:53)
Yeah. How how many
bots how many bots have you had online arguments with?
Matt Kendall (28:00)
dude, I I I don't even I it's it it's it's not it's it's probably I can probably count on one hand, but as somebody
Elliot Costello (28:06)
Yeah.
Matt Kendall (28:07)
who's a communication strategist and has a really high sensitivity to these things, it's they're getting astonishingly good. and once again, there's you know, there was there's been these attacks. Zelensky has taken out the data centers in Russia of two their two primary AI companies.
The jury is still out on whether the bots have been affected because a lot of them were just doing crawling analysis. But and I I I will hold off on my take on that until Q UT Professor Timothy Graham, who's the the e does expert analysis on this, on whether it's been affected. But it's an inc it's it's a very smart play by Zelensky because Russia has a sovereign because he wants control over the internet, he doesn't want
Western ideas going into Russia, it's got a very centralized, you know, sovereign AI, internet and and social infrastructure, even banking. And so with Zelensky going in there and taking out these data centers, you know, probably taking out a whole lot of bot activity. there has I've noticed a drop in it. Like I said, I will wait until I see the the hard data on it. But essentially everything from
from banking to essential services in Russia has been affected by by that approach. So it's a it's a wild time man. I by the time this goes out on Tuesday, probably things would have changed a whole lot more.
Elliot Costello (29:36)
Yeah, well, hopefully for the better, because you know, w where we started wasn't a good wasn't a good outlook, that realignment of power. and you're right, this this sort of topic does certainly intersect with our previous topics that talks about roles and responsibilities for big tech in protecting liberal democracies. There's been no effort and attempt in doing so.
I've referenced her before, but Sarah Wins Wilson's book, Careless People about Facebook and the algorithms and what it knows and how it and allows these algorithms to be exploited because of engagement, and turning a blind eye. There's a huge responsibility that Zuckerberg and other tech leaders have. so thesis is there, it's quite clear. taking a a very strong position,
We
might need to wrap it up there, Matt. I'll I'll I'll make sure that you let Kirty know tonight that there is no trip to to Russia anytime soon.
Matt Kendall (30:44)
Mm.
Elliot Costello (30:44)
but but besides that, at least your position and narrative is is well known and it's recorded for history to know that you're on the right side of history when this this connection between power politics and technology is exposed.
Matt Kendall (31:01)
This is a pretty fast moving story. There's new developments rolling out all the time. But look, at the in t in terms of the time of recording, what I've the reporting I've read has said that Musk suggested the idea of choking or reducing the speed of Starlink to Trump and then Trump then passed the order onto the Pentagon.
since then it looks like Musk has freaked out about what this could mean for his business in Europe, obviously for obvious reasons. I think, you know, Australia, everybody should be thinking about this with these nutcases at the levers of power in America, that things this technology we've become dependent on can get turned off at any point. So I think Musk has freaked out and claimed that he had nothing to do with it, that it was Star Shield is I think he's probably being a bit cute there. He's saying Star Shield is
and is not Starlink. Starlink is the civilian technology. Star Shield is the one that's run by the Pentagon and he's got no control over that. he's claiming that, you know, he's put it onto Trump. He's thrown Trump under a Trump under a bus. But then Trump has now also come out and said that he doesn't know who passed the order on. But from the reporting I've seen there were four separate sources that said that both of them were involved. And now this technology
Primarily it's it's not necessarily used for targets in Russia. Apparently it's for some mid-range targeting in regions nearby, but it's primarily used by Ukraine to protect and intercept these Shah Head missiles which have since attacked Ukraine and America didn't supply the intelligence that they normally supply, which is normally a warning so that you Ukraine can evacuate the area.
But it also meant that they were not able to intercept these missiles. So this is treasonous behaviour by both of them. and potentially, complicit in war crimes because it was civilians that were being targeted.
But make no mistake. If Russia leaves Ukraine, then the war is over. If Ukraine surrenders or Russia beats Ukraine, then the war isn't over. It then becomes a question of which country Putin is going to invade next. And he's been Putin's been really clear about this. He's spoken about it in
in his his imperial ambitions in speeches, he wants to recapture the previous glory of of the Soviet Union. So when you take that on board and what kind of man Putin is, really what's at stake with this war is a free Europe.
Matt Kendall (33:32)
It really is an awful war. It's literally the definition of i you know, irresistible force and immovable object. I believe in the resilience of the Ukrainian people, but really America as a nation needs to start to hold the the White House's feet to the flames on this and we need to be cognizant of just how much Putin's strategy of poisoning our info well our information well is. So, I know you need to go, Elliot. Well
call it quits for this week. I could go on for another half hour, but that is another topic worth knowing and we'll see you same time again next week.