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The Feel Good Podcast aims to unpack what it means to be a man in the modern world. In each episode, we explore the evolving landscape of masculinity through open, honest conversations with guests from all walks of life, from sport and the military to leadership, mental health and the arts.
We challenge outdated narratives and dig into topics like emotional resilience, connection, identity and purpose. Our aim is to create a space where men can reflect, feel seen, and start to ask deeper questions about who they are and who they want to become.
Whether you're curious about redefining strength, navigating vulnerability, or simply looking for more meaning in how you show up day to day – this podcast is for you.
Welcome to another episode of Feel Good for Men Who Want Change, the podcast all about healthy masculinity and how we as men can show up in the right way. My guest today is Clario Cesera of Male Child Care and Teaching Jobs who works to support hundreds of settings and nursery practitioners across London. Now, as you'll hear, Claudio fell into the early years profession as a 19 year old who just moved to London and quickly realized that men were heavily underrepresented in the nursery setting. And in a world where we're talking about where good male role models can come from, it's clear that having only 3% of early years educators being men could be something that we can address. We talk about some of the cultural stigmas that stop men applying for these roles and how nurseries, children, and parents can benefit from us shifting that narrative.
Tim:Claudio is a really energetic guy. You'll hear that the minute you speak to him, and I think he's a great ambassador for why more men should be involved in early years education. So please enjoy my episode with Claudio Cesera. Alright, Claudio, welcome to the podcast.
Claudio:Thank you very much for having me, Tim.
Tim:No worries. Well, we're gonna talk a lot, I think, about early years education and the men's role in that. But I'd love to understand a bit about your backstory and how you got into that and take us back a bit and paint a picture for us.
Claudio:Of course. I've been working in the earliest industry for around thirteen years now. I'm originally from Italy, a very small village in the Southern part of Italy. Yeah. I won't tell you the name because you won't probably know about it, but near Napoli, near Naples.
Tim:Okay.
Claudio:So I decided to move to London at age 19 looking for a more diverse place to live, and I didn't really have any career prospects in mind. So moved to London. A friend of mine hosted me for a couple of weeks there, and his flatmate was a room leader in a local nursery in Fulham, Southwest London. And he noticed that I was giving CVs here and there. It was still the days where you had to print twenty, thirty CVs and just keep them out to your shops, which makes me feel unnecessarily old now.
Claudio:But, know, I'm not
Tim:that We'll move
Claudio:on. And, We'll on. Yeah, he noticed I was given CVs, couldn't find a job within, you know, a week or so, and he suggested that I would apply for a job at his nursery. My first instinct thought was, are you sure about that? Like, am I gonna be suitable for it?
Claudio:I don't have any experience working with children whatsoever. I wasn't even planning to work in education. And he said, oh, yeah. Don't worry. Like, I know my manager is quite open about younger people, you know, coming coming to work for her.
Claudio:And my second thought was, what about me being a man Yeah. Working in in that setting? Because obviously, I come from a society back home in Italy where gender disparity is even more accentuated than it is here in The UK. So it's not a thing for men to work in in nursery settings whatsoever back home. So that was my my first concern.
Claudio:And he reassured me of the fact that there were four other men working in his setting, which Quite
Tim:high then.
Claudio:Yeah. Very high. Yes. Well, definitely higher than the national average for sure. So I decided to give it a go.
Claudio:Went for the interview, had really little English as well at the time. But little did I know that I would get the job and I would eventually stick with it. So I started out as an apprentice, worked my way up to a managerial level once I became qualified. The So apprenticeship lasted around twelve months. And ever since I became qualified, my career skyrocketed pretty fast.
Claudio:So I became room leader. After a few months, I became qualified because my room leader went to maternity cover. So I was like an acting room leader for around a year or so. And then after that, the nursery I worked at got taken over by a large group. So there were many more opportunities for growth, development, and became a nursery manager within four and a half years since I started working in early years, which was impressive.
Claudio:Like Yeah. Not on a personal level, but just didn't expect it that Yeah. You know, I could progress that quickly. And when I became nursery manager, I soon realized that I wanted to have my own business. So I started out child minding from the comfort of my home.
Claudio:And then within a year or so, I upgraded the setting to a childcare provider on domestic premises. And suddenly that was when I lost the business to the pandemic.
Tim:So I yeah. It rears its head again, the pandemic.
Claudio:Yes, I know, right? And I think there's still people are still picking up the broken pieces from that period of time. But I had a brief career change during the lockdown. So I went to do digital marketing, totally unrelated, but I wanted to learn more about advertising and how to position myself online. And it was whilst I was doing that that I created a LinkedIn account.
Claudio:I started connecting with more and more people outside of my nursery circle. And I realized that a lot of men who are out there, they had quite similar challenges that I experienced in the sector, particularly during my first year of working in nurseries. So having spoken with these men, I realized that no matter their background, no matter their protected characteristics, so whether they were old, young, gay, straight, they all seemed to be experiencing the same sort of challenges. And to me, it just baffled me that there wasn't a centralized platform that was championing their role in not only society, but also in early years education. So I founded Male Childhood and Teaching Jobs, which is an organization that champions the role of men working in early years and caregiving roles.
Claudio:We set ourselves with to achieve three main objectives. One of them being encouraging more boys and men to actively pursue careers in early education, considering the benefits that that we bring to the sector. Then we want to champion, coach, mentor the current male workforce to facilitate retention and make sure that men who work in the field, they do feel welcome in the industry. And ultimately, want to support nurseries, preschools, schools, and other entities in enhancing their gender inclusivity practices. So anything from inclusive recruitment and retention practices to ensuring that they foster a culture of inclusivity, not just amongst their staff team, but also the parents they serve and the families they serve.
Claudio:Amazing. So that's me in a nutshell.
Tim:Yeah. No. Whistle stop tour. Thanks. And I guess, you know, I guess it's probably fair to say then that you fell into early years education as a career.
Tim:Is that fair to say?
Claudio:Yeah, absolutely. I wasn't I wasn't planning to work in early years whatsoever, primarily because the stigma that there is still around what a man and a woman should do in society. Again, the fact that there were other men working in that nursery setting really reassured me. But even so, I still faced some sort of discrimination, not just from staff members, but also from parents. Yeah.
Claudio:So, yeah, I remember, like, quite vividly a couple of times parents requesting that I wouldn't change their children's nappies, for example, or I wouldn't engage in intimate care routines of any sort, physical contact. And that really makes you question, you know, whether or not you should belong to that industry. So, yeah, completely fell into the sector. I speak with many men out there within our community of male educators, and I can quite confidently say that 99% of them, they all fell into the sector in some sort. So whether they come from different industries and they transitioned into the education to find something more fulfilling, a more rewarding career, or because they knew somebody who worked in a nursery and later on in life recommended them to join the setting.
Claudio:So yeah, it's quite a common phenomenon, you know, to just fall into the sector.
Tim:Yeah. No. Absolutely. And I guess we'll come on to some of the reasons for that. But I guess we should probably just define our terms a little bit for people who aren't as familiar with the nursery world either because they don't have kids themselves or we overlapped a little bit career wise in in working in the space.
Tim:I never worked in a nursery. But when you say early years, what does that refer to? When you say room leader, what does that refer to? And generally, what are the sort of ages of children that that you'd be working with or or the menu support we work with?
Claudio:Perfect. So when it comes to early education, we are referring to the age group of children aged from birth to five year olds. So usually nursery environments, when we speak, when we talk about the standards nursery setup, we find that rooms are divided into age groups. So there might be a baby room with an age group between zero to either one or two depending on the setting. Then we have toddler classroom, nursery classroom, which is two to three.
Claudio:And then we would have the preschool classroom which is three to five. So that's where the school readiness takes place in a way. When it comes to positions, room leader is nothing more than a room supervisor. So it's the primary port of call for parents to liaise with when it comes to their children's development in the classroom. Course.
Claudio:So usually you would have unqualified staff members and qualified staff members, a mixture. There are some like ratio requirements when it comes And to the room leader is the primary person in charge of that specific classroom. So it's the person in primary control of the planning of the activities and ensuring that all the members of staff, they are meeting the children needs in the best possible way.
Tim:Got you. Okay, that makes sense. And having sort of absorbed this and fallen into this nursery where there were other men, like what were your personally, what were your first experiences of working in a nursery setting in that environment?
Claudio:It was very strange in a way Yeah. Because I I mean, I still couldn't believe I was working in a predominantly female working environment considering my background and all the stigma around that. Obviously, fact that there were other men working there reassured me of my presence being accepted there. But soon I did experience some challenges, specifically with regards to feelings of isolation. And that might sound a little bit like it wouldn't make sense because there were other men working in that setting, but they didn't necessarily reflect my own protected characteristics.
Claudio:And that sort of influenced my thinking about what that industry would be for. Let me explain you better. There's there's usually like a misconception about the reasons why a man works in nursery settings. And if they're straight, because they want to be flirtatious with girls Yep. Or if they are gay, it's mainly because of their protective characteristic Yeah.
Claudio:And because they seem to be displaying certain traits that are more traditionally perceived as feminist Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And nurturing and caring. Yeah.
Claudio:So at the time, during my first year working in nursery, there didn't really seem to be like a middle ground and I didn't really feel like there was a space for me in that nursery environment. So I've always felt like I had to conform to the system in a way and I couldn't really be myself. So that's the thing that I struggled with the most during my first year. And because of that, I sometimes I could feel that that was taking up psychological toll on my mental well-being. And, you know, sometimes I would dread going to work, sometimes I wouldn't really feel like I wouldn't need to spend time in the classroom.
Claudio:Often I had colleagues as well making what they seem to think were harmless jokes about my certain tasks that I was carrying out, specifically like the more that were seen as traditionally feminine, such as for example, bottle feeding babies or even changing children's nappies or even things like cleaning and meal prepping. So I would often like get remarks on that in the way I was doing them and it didn't really make me feel like I was doing a good job. Although in my opinion, I was and according to my nursery manager, I was as well.
Tim:Yeah. And presumably that's just part of the job too, right? Like to avoid those tasks would be to not do certain things.
Claudio:Yeah, exactly. You know, it's part of my job specs. I was supposed to be doing it anyway and my nursery manager stood by when I was raising concerns about it. So, yeah, it's things that you're expected to do regardless of your gender, but unfortunately, that wasn't a smooth experience that I had. You know, as a 19 year old boy, it can really make you question whether that's the right career path to engage for the rest of your life really.
Claudio:Yeah. Especially when you're so
Tim:young. Yeah. I mean, it must have been fairly tough. Right? Like you're new to the country, you're new to the industry, you're a young guy anyway, like to be in that environment, which also maybe we should also talk a little bit about like what the average day is like because I've worked close to a nursery setting.
Tim:I worked in a member's club that had a nursery. That's how we've come to know each other. And, you know, sometimes you would go up there and I would just open the door and be like, oh my god. Just like close the door again because there's like screaming and there's some wee over there and there's toys flying over there and that kind of stuff. Like, you know, it's it's it's not at time, it's an amazing environment but at times it can be quite stressful.
Tim:So yeah, perhaps maybe paint a little bit of a picture of like what is a day like or a common day like for for for someone working in that setting.
Claudio:Yeah, of course. So the day normally would start, well if you work in a traditionally full time day care, day nursery, the day usually would start with breakfast time. So you welcome children in. You start building those early interactions with the family as well. Mhmm.
Claudio:And, you know, you ask families about their children's nights and previous day, how they've been, just to make sure that there's enough communication about what you should know about the children on that day so that if they do start screaming or crying, you might be aware of the reasons why. But then you'll start serving breakfast, try to engage with children, make every single part of the routine like a learning experience. So engage in conversations with the children. If you're having breakfast with them, educate them about the food that they're eating, for example, or likings, dislikings. Then following that, depending on the routine, there might be like a circle time where children engage in reading books, singing with their educators, talk about their day, talking about feelings, and things like that.
Claudio:There would be some activity time set up during the the morning, which could be a mixture of indoor activities and outdoor activities. And they would be normally reflecting what the seven areas of learning are that we often talk about in the earliest foundation stage. So we've got areas like personal, social and emotional development, so encouraging children to do group activities and collaborate with each other. Our communication and language, of course, so educating them on their listening, understanding and speaking skills. Physical development, so there'll be like loads of activities around developing fine motor skills, gross motor skills from sports and climbing activities to how to manipulate small objects.
Claudio:Mhmm. There'll be activities around literacy and mathematics. We're not talking about crazy stuff there in New York. We're we're growing scientists and geniuses. I mean, one day they might be.
Claudio:But we're talking about early literacy and maths. So again, reading books, reading stories, trying to embed initially those early notions of what a number looks like, counting on your fingers. But even like earlier on like shapes, filling gaps, you know. Then we've got the understanding of the world and so anything that you can possibly think of within the world. Then we have expressive arts and design, so encouraging creativity in children.
Claudio:So engaging in activities like arts and crafts Yeah. Musical activities, creative, drama, you name it. You know, there's quite a lot of things that you can do. So then the day would continue with lunchtime. So again, very similar to breakfast time.
Claudio:You try and make the lunchtime experience as playful and joyful as you can. Depending on the age group, children would go to sleep as well, so you'd facilitate sleep time, and after sleep time there will be more activity times in the afternoon. Some nurseries would do the tea time as well around 04:00 end of the day. After that, there will be the pick up time. So that's when children get collected.
Claudio:You, again, have that very purposeful interaction with the parents where you share with them how the day has been, if there's been any concerns, any success stories from the children. Yeah. It's which is by the way my favorite part of the day as well, like, you know, liaising with the parents as well because you really start building really meaningful relationships with them and the children. Yeah. So, yeah, that's what a typical day at a nursery looks like.
Claudio:Yeah. There's obviously different types of settings Yeah. That exist. There's some that much more forest school oriented, so outdoor. There's some other ones that might follow specific pedagogies over others.
Claudio:Mhmm. But yeah, there's the list is quite quite long and extensive.
Tim:Yeah. Amazing. And, you know, it strikes me as you're describing that how, of course, there's the sort of classic feminine trait of, you know, nurturing and and and that being what you you know, people people might expect, you know, women to do more naturally. But, know, a lot of what you described there in terms of those seven types of learning or or the wording that you use, a lot of those, you know, you you wouldn't necessarily attach, you know, a a gender traits to them in terms of like, you know, communication skills, emotional development, you know, motor skill development, those kinds of things. They they could be done by anyone presumably.
Claudio:Yes. That's very true. However, there are certain tasks performed during the that day that are traditionally perceived as feminine. So for example, the nappy changing side of things primarily because of parental concerns around that. You know, unfortunately, there still seems to be quite a lot of lack of trust in men carrying out these sort of activities or anything really that's like related to the physical contact of the children as well.
Claudio:It's not just about nappy changing. So a member of our community once has reported a, you know, a concern of discrimination that he experienced in his setting. So he had a child sitting on his lap and he was simply reading a book with them. And he was told by his nursery manager not to have children on his lap and that they had a policy in place that would prevent that from happening. But then he noticed that there were other female colleagues doing exactly the same thing, but they weren't told to not to have children on their laps.
Claudio:So he straightaway thought, why is that? Why am I being discriminated against my gender based on my gender? Yeah, that's the sort of like examples that still unfortunately emphasize the fact that this is a career that's more traditionally accepted if you're a woman as opposed to if you're a man.
Tim:So amongst, you know, I guess quite serious claims like that, like what are some of the experiences of of being a man in early years? Like what are what are these guys typically coming to you to talk about or or share with you about their experiences?
Claudio:Primarily, when when we run our, let's say, we do we do like small group mentoring calls and discussions where we provide an opportunity for men to get on group calls and just talk about their day. So sometimes it could be like as little things as sharing a success story from a day or sharing like something like an episode of discrimination. But some other times it just be like creating like a circle of friends in a way where we can just like come together, talk about our experiences without any fear of repercussion at work, if that makes sense. Especially when it comes to certain topics that these men might not have the opportunity to talk about in the staff room because of their representation, gender representation. So often we feel that the topic of discussion in a staff room doesn't really resonate interests or with our things that we want to talk about.
Claudio:So that opportunity for us to come together and talk as men from the earlier sector is it really brings different dynamics to the conversation. Sometimes the level humor as well can be a little bit different from a woman's. So we really have a circle, like a community where we can be ourselves without having to conform to when the standards are expected in a nursery environment. That makes sense.
Tim:Yeah. Makes sense. I mean, I'm getting a sense that perhaps it could be, you know, maybe if you're one of or the only man in your setting, it could be quite a lonely role.
Claudio:Yeah. Yeah. No. Absolutely. And that's like one of the most common struggles that men are experiencing in in the sector, feelings of isolation, which is really why I got prompted to to create this this organization that I'm running today.
Claudio:You know, really wanna make sure that men, when they start working in a nursery environment, they feel like they belong from day one. And one of the things that we always work with nursery leaders is a robust induction process, not just for men but for every member of staff in that nursery really. So that they all know what some of the most common challenges that we experience are based on the stories of members of our community. And then at the same time, by being aware of those challenges, they would get training, appropriate training on how to overcome them and how to make their environments as welcoming as possible. Little things like topical discussions in the staff room or being mindful of language utilized.
Claudio:Sometimes unconscious biases that come across in the language, everyday language that they utilize or sometimes even like some recruitment biases that happen in the national environment. So often men get sort of like pushed into the preschool classroom because the manager or the hiring manager might just assume that they would prefer working there. Or sometimes men do prefer working in the preschool classroom so that they can avoid any confrontation around physical contact with the younger children. So there's a lot of like intricacies there that really affect the way we get higher in the sector, but at the same time we feel and see, I'm not sure if that makes sense.
Tim:Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. And I guess what, let's talk about, I guess, why it matters that that we get this right. So like why does it matter that we get more men in in early years education?
Claudio:Could be probably be talking about this forever. Yeah. Yeah. But if we would summarize some of the benefits of having a mixed gender teaching workforce, I think the most important one is that by having both men and women educating younger children, we are sending a really strong message to the younger generations that men and women can do the same jobs, men and women can collaborate with each other, and men can obviously be positive male role models for them. There's a lot of research that's been done around the fact that children start developing gender stereotypes from as early as 18 to two years and they are fully formed by age seven.
Claudio:So that to me shows what an opportunity we have in the earlier sector to tackle those stereotypes and prevent them from forming in the first place. I remember once I took some children to the playground, and we got approached by another child, a three year old boy, who came to us, and he was showing his jacket. So he wanted to show us his jacket which had dinosaurs on. And I had a couple of boys who were wearing flowery jackets. So first thing he said was, oh, look.
Claudio:I've got dinosaurs on my jacket. Dinosaurs are for boys. And straight away, my instinct got me to ask him, oh, what about girls? What do they wear? And he said, oh, they wear unicorns, flowers, and they wear pink.
Claudio:And I said, oh, are you sure about that? Look. I've got two boys here who are wearing flowers on their coats. And I could see straight away the confusion on his face.
Tim:Was like, oh, this is not
Claudio:what I've been taught.
Tim:World view just destroyed.
Claudio:I know. So, you know, that to me is not a huge concern at that stage, but that's I think the first step for an individual to then start developing stronger gender stereotypes later on in life if they're not tackled early on. And that's where I think over time, and again I'm not making this a huge problem at this stage, but I think if it's untackled over the course of the years, that's where we get then to all those individuals who are on social media today Yeah. Promoting toxic masculinity.
Tim:Yeah. 100%. I mean, like, you know, the the that movement and this movement of toxic masculinity and there's some pushback against even using that phrase, but I guess that movement, a lot of it, it's it's all cultural. And culture is a big messy soup of lots of different things and education plays a part of that. And so it's you I think I couldn't agree more of what you're saying that early years education is a key part in that cultural mess of like how boys think about the world they grow up in.
Claudio:Yeah. Exactly. And then there's there's a guidance that nursery should be following Yeah. As part of, you know, their their legal requirements, is called the prevent duty. Right.
Claudio:And as part of that, there are four key values that should be followed. One of them being mutual respect and tolerance for those with different faiths and beliefs. Okay. Now I think that that often gets misinterpreted in the education industry and people just limit themselves thinking that different beliefs relates to cultural beliefs and religious beliefs. But beliefs could be anything like gender, could be identity, could be like different ways of approaching life.
Claudio:So there is so much more. I mean, there are quite a few references that are made in that guidance around the fact that nurseries should be having policies that prevent misogynistic behavior from developing in children. Yeah. And I really think that by having men and women positively collaborating with each other, we're really sending that strong message to the children that, especially boys, that men and women can collaborate with each other, can can be like can achieve positive outcomes with each other. So we're trying to like blend the two Yeah.
Claudio:Genders together rather than like separate them and dividing them.
Tim:A 100%. And and some of the research I was reading in in preparation for this from the government report, just to give people a scale of the problem, we're talking about only 3% of the early years workforce being male. And that, you know, children can benefit obviously from diverse role models as as you've said. But that is particularly true if their own father is absent absent because obviously there isn't a male role model in the household.
Claudio:Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Totally agree with you on that. And I think we live in a society at the moment that has more and more diverse family backgrounds as well. So speaking of single parents but also same gender parents.
Claudio:So we've got I think, yeah, we by by having more male educators in your nursery environment, you're really helping filling that gap of the that positive male role model that children need to have at home. There's also, like, quite a lot of interesting research done about the fact that men and women differ in some cognitive skills. We're not talking about intelligence level, but we're talking about ways our brains work, again, cognitive skills, but that's not like a fixated idea of how our brain works as opposed to a woman one, it's just because of how we were brought up as children and behaviors that we were encouraged as boys and as girls. So one key found finding from research from the Griffith University in Australia was that men and women differ in spatial reasoning skills, which is the ability to manipulate and visualize two d and three d shapes in the environment. So that to me is like a plausible explanation to why men seem to be naturally gravitating towards activities like sports, outdoor play, forest school, woodworking, you know.
Claudio:And this is not like me genderizing these sort of activities. But unfortunately, statistics still show that some more accentuated than others, men are predominantly more interested in these roles. So that to me just screams like an opportunity for nursery settings to bring a diverse skill set to their classrooms. And again, I am totally against the fact that we should be genderizing these activities. Know, you shouldn't really be hiring a man because you want to lead those activities.
Claudio:But it could be like a quite a positive way to diversify the skills of your teaching workforce as well. We work with a nursery at the moment who actually was amazing at tackling that phenomenon of genderizing this activity. So they they had a member of staff who has a DIY background Yeah. And he started doing woodworking activities with the children. Okay.
Claudio:Now the bad way of doing it would have been if that member of staff was doing that alone. But what he did was trained he trained a female colleague to do exactly the same activity. And then together, they led that activity, and they were inviting equally boys and girls to do that activity Mhmm. Regardless of gender. So that to me was a really nice example of how there was a different skill set brought into that nursery environment, but at the same time, we weren't sending children a message that only men can do that.
Claudio:So we're educating them on the fact that men and women could do the same jobs. Yeah. There was another research that makes me laugh in a way sometimes, and it's about impulsiveness of men sometimes. So there was it was from ResearchGate that I found it. And they men are more likely, according to the to the research, to be able to display impulsive behaviors.
Tim:Okay.
Claudio:Behaviors that are risk taking and sensation seeking. Yep. Whereas women were more likely to adopt a more thoughtful approach to the matter. And there was another piece of research as well that I found that with regards to job applications where it said that that was from the business review article. Sorry, business review article, yes.
Claudio:So it said that men are more likely to apply for a job when they meet only 60% of the criteria, whereas women are Yeah. They will only apply when they meet the
Tim:highest Guys are like, fuck it. I can do that job. Like, I'll just sling my CV in.
Claudio:Yeah. Exactly. That I totally resonate with that And that aspect of impulsiveness has a massive benefit when it comes to educating children because there's something in nurseries called responsive planning or in the moment planning, which is something that practitioners and educators are highly encouraged to do in the nursery setting, is responding to child's interest there and then and plan an activity around that. So we once had one of our male educators who was a lunch coven. He used to get to the nursery by skateboard.
Claudio:Mhmm. And the children used to witness his arrival all the time. They were getting overexcited about that Yeah. To the point that they were asking him to to jump on the skateboard. Yeah.
Claudio:So he instinctively just let the children get on the skateboard indoors without risk assessing assess Yeah. Yeah. Assessing it. So it was an amazing experience, but I'll let you imagine the level of disagreement from the rest of the team members and the managers. So what we did there, we had a staff meeting around it.
Claudio:Obviously, we evaluated the benefits, the risks of that activity, and we had the rest of the team members participating to that activity planning. And eventually, we've turned that in the moment thing into like a proper club. So we we called it like a skateboard club. Yeah. That's right.
Claudio:And we bought child sized skateboards, elbow pads, knee We started running it like regularly and in a controlled environment Yeah. And the parents loved it. Yeah. The children loved it. The staff members loved it in the end because it was safer.
Claudio:Yeah. So and we became the only nursery in Fulham, like famous nursery in Fulham to be carrying out that sort of activity.
Tim:The skateboarding nursery.
Claudio:Yes. Exactly that. Yeah. Yeah. And that to me, like, will always remember that moment very happily because it was a very practical example of how the blend of experiences Yeah.
Claudio:And ways of thinking and the diversity of voices in a natural environment could lead to a very positive outcome for the children, the families, and the natural itself in the end.
Tim:Yeah. That that's fantastic. And that's a great way to bring these sort of statistics to life. And and I think it's important to say, and and I and I know you'll think this too, is like no one is saying all men are impulsive and no women are. You know, we're talking about averages here.
Tim:But to your point about diversity, if only 3% of the male of the early years workforce is male, you're you're not gonna get those averages across your team.
Claudio:Exactly that. Yes. So it's a way to complement the majority of the workflow workforce.
Tim:Yeah. So how do children respond to having a male caregiver? Which might seem like an obvious thing but I guess it seems hopefully, we've just made the case as to why it's important that we get men into the setting. But in your experience, from what you've seen or heard from the the men in your community, how do the children react in a more balanced environment?
Claudio:Quite positively, if I can be honest and non biased. Now I often hear well, I've seen it in my own experience, but I often hear it from members of our community as well. It seems like children naturally gravitate towards men when they see one in the classroom. And we don't know if that's because we are a minority or it's something that they don't see often or especially with boys, you know, they tend to be more attracted to somebody who is similar to them and display similar characteristics. But in my experience, majority of the classrooms I've worked in, I was I would always like act like a magnet to children.
Claudio:Mhmm. And even today, when I go to a nursery and visit it for other reasons, you know, not to educate, whenever I step in a classroom, I get like a bunch of children just coming to me and like Yeah. Being curious about what I'm wearing or my piercings or my tattoos and asking loads of questions. So they respond really well to the presence of men in a nursery, you know, in a classroom environment. I had a particular experience with special educational needs boys as well.
Claudio:So I've had a, in my career, around four who later on in life were diagnosed with either autism or there and then they they were experiencing a hearing impairment. And with them, I always ended up being their primary key person in the classroom, not because the manager, my manager chose to, but because they seem to be displaying particularly affectionate traits towards towards me. Specifically during activities or transitions, often, you know, boys would come to me, like, trying to seek reassurance by holding my my child's hand. My child's hand. My hand.
Claudio:Yeah. And that's something that I get a lot of community members sharing as well with special educational needs. And I'm not sure if that could be a reason why men seem to gravitate as well towards working in special schools or with children with with special needs, but definitely seems to be a trend there. Yeah. Very similarly to outdoor play.
Claudio:Yeah. Which again proves quite a lot of benefits to to bring for for children with special education needs.
Tim:Absolutely. So I guess what needs to to change then? Like in your experience and and what does the research tell us? Like why why aren't more men entering the profession? Like, what are the barriers, cultural or otherwise, that they're coming up against?
Tim:And presumably, some of the barriers apply to women too, but, like, generally speaking, what what's stopping men being involved?
Claudio:I think when it comes to actively pursue a career in early years, boys don't I find that boys don't really leave school saying, I want to work in early years. So as I briefly mentioned at the beginning of the conversation, we all seem to be falling into the sector in some way, but we didn't really leave school wanting to go into a nursery environment. So I think there's still quite a lot of stigma about the conversation and about what a man's job should be like. There's still a lot of misconceptions around who the breadwinner of the family should be. And often, early education is not only perceived as a feminine role, also as a low paid one.
Claudio:So I think there isn't a lot of motivation from boys to actively apply for an LES job. I was working with a with a nursery who had a 16 sorry, 14 year old boy for work experience there. And he was saying the to the nursery manager how he was undecided between two careers. One of them being early years and the other one being politics, which is completely different. Don't ask me how he got there because we didn't get a chance to
Tim:ask end of the spectrum.
Claudio:Yes. And apparently, and this is something that he didn't tell me, the nursery manager told me, he the boy was discouraged by his teacher to pursue earlier education, he was sort of like being pushed into into the politics side of things. And to me, that's just that just baffles me because that shouldn't happen, you know. Like, you really should be following what a child's a young person's interest is based on what he wants to gain out of it, not because of what society tells him to do. So, yeah, I think I think there's a lot of change that needs to happen when it comes to the secondary school area of education.
Claudio:And I think as early as professionals ourselves, we should be making an active effort to bring male representation into secondary schools Yeah. And talk about earliest careers from the perspective of a man.
Tim:It's interesting because by the time you get to secondary and tertiary education, the gender balance is like men are in the majority in tertiary and I I I think in secondary school it's about even. Yeah. So it's it's interesting that it changes up to that point but it doesn't trickle back in the other direction.
Claudio:Yeah. It's a it's a misconception, you know, around the fact that a job in a as a secondary school teacher, let's say, is more prestigious than than an earliest one. In my opinion, because of the not so well, in my opinion, perceived ideology of what authoritative a man should be. So sometimes you get that in nurseries as well. Like, a nursery manager would hire a man with the expectation of that person being the authoritarian within a preschool classroom.
Claudio:So they go in the classroom whenever a child would be misbehaving and and sort of like set rules Yeah. In that way. Sometimes I would I was working in the office and I would have preschool teachers coming to the office with children who were not behaving according to certain rules and with expectation of me telling that child off. Interesting.
Tim:Yeah.
Claudio:Not right. Know, that child shouldn't be growing with that.
Tim:Yeah. And in that instance, it's that women bring the children to you as the man to do that role.
Claudio:Yes. Exactly. So I think there's still a lot of misconceptions around the role of man in a child's growth. And it seems to be somehow normalized that a man should be like if they're a teacher, if they're if they want to be an educator, they should be working with older age groups because of that. Yes.
Claudio:There is a pay factor in it as well. So secondary teachers, you know, they get paid more than than primary and and preschool teachers. But at the same time, as an organization, we're trying to tackle that. Mhmm. And we're trying to sort of expose younger boys to the multitude of career opportunities that can derive from a job in early education.
Claudio:So for example, if you have a look at our blog section on our website, we've got stories of people who have become nursery owners Mhmm. Which is ultimately financially rewarding Yeah. Avenue. Or they've become child minders. I was telling you earlier on about it.
Claudio:Like, you know, just working from the comfort of your home, you're able to look after your own children as well if you have any, but at the same time, you educate others others children as well. Mhmm. There are operations directors of apprenticeship companies that that have started out as apprentice themselves in a nursery environment. So there's a lot of you can become an offset inspector, you know, you can you can do your own consulting.
Tim:I mean, also presumably, if you get into it from an apprentice route, you can start that quite young. You could do three or four years of it and at 22 decide, oh, it's not for me, I'm gonna do something else. Right? And you've been an early years educator for four or five years.
Claudio:Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 100%.
Claudio:And the yeah. And I and I could say, you know, that circling back on your question about what things we can do more for boys, for example, go and have a look at what's out there in terms of environments and nurseries. Don't be afraid to go and ask nursery manager to have like a volunteering experience there so you can get a feel of what the job is like because you'd be surprised to see how many nursery managers want more men in their settings. But men are I think too timid to go and give it a try. Which is also why I'm doing my job at the moment.
Claudio:So like break that barrier and reassure them of the fact that there is a community behind.
Tim:Well, timid isn't a word I'd associate with you. So you're probably playing the right role. Do know you what this gender split is of primary school teachers?
Claudio:So it's around 13%.
Tim:Okay.
Claudio:You're talking about gender representation?
Tim:Yeah. Yeah. Gender representation. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim:So we've got 3% early years, 13% primary.
Claudio:Yeah. And then 33% secondary at the moment, roughly. You know, it keeps on oscillating.
Tim:Yeah. It's it's interesting that, you know, we're at this moment where people are talking about, you know, the the requirement for positive male role models and why aren't there more and that kind of thing. And and we've got this sort of massive gap staring us right in the face where there's, you know, a great opportunity for male role models as you rightly pointed out, while gender stereotypes are being developed in children's minds to be, you know, in in these nursery settings.
Claudio:Yeah. No. Absolutely. And this I think even families, you know, any any father who may who might be out there listening to this podcast, you know, there's so much that they can do to help tackle that, you know, not necessarily by sending the child in a nursery that has been working but even in society and broader in the broader community. There's you'd be surprised to see how many positive male role models there are out there that your children can be exposed to.
Claudio:So I went to I visited a nursery nursery the other day, and I engaged in an outing with the with the children there. And we went to say hello to local community members. And one of them was an elderly person who owned a garden, a next stable. So we just went in. He was a well known person.
Claudio:The activity was already risk assessed, so we weren't walking into a stranger's garden. But the man started to talk to the children about the tools that he had and what they were for and what the garden was used for and the fact that there was a horse living there and engaging in all these positive conversations with the children. And I could see the children's fascination in their eyes listening to that man's story. And that's like, that was just an example of, like, the sort of exposure children need to have to men out there in society who are nurturing, caring, you know, gentle because again that sends subtly a message to the children as well that we can be like that. We Yeah.
Claudio:We should be like that Yeah. More.
Tim:Yeah. Absolutely. And the other thing that strikes me as well is that there are so many men who perhaps, you know, hopefully it doesn't happen to this young man who is considering politics, but who are doing jobs they feel like they should be doing. Right? Because there are, you know, if if only 3% of of early age educators are men, most men aren't growing up with a male role model who was an early age educator.
Tim:So all of the messages that we're getting are, well, you should go into one of these professional careers, earn lots of money because that's what men do. And I think what we're seeing now is a lot of men realizing, that's just not really what I want and actually this is a bit miserable and that kind of thing. You know, the day I'm they're obviously stressful days in any profession, male but they would possibly be much much happier Yeah. You know, doing this kind of role.
Claudio:We've had a couple of cases actually in our community where well, one of our mentor who is a mentor for students, he used to be an electrician. He started out as an electrician, wasn't enjoying it at all. Didn't find it fulfilling at all. And then tried education, and he had experiences in different educational levels as areas as well. So he didn't start out with early years.
Claudio:So he was a secondary teacher and then ended up now working in early years because he found it much more fulfilling to unpick Yeah. Problems that he was experiencing with students at secondary school level but at an earlier stage.
Tim:Interesting.
Claudio:Because it's yeah. It it's so funny because we talk about it not as a moving down too early, but moving up in a way because you're really tackling those issues and and problematics early on in life. Yeah. We yeah. So we had another apprentice.
Claudio:Actually, he's going for an apprenticeship at the moment. He used to have a corporate job in Central London and did not find it fulfilling at all. Didn't he didn't he just felt like he was not bringing any value to society and he didn't find it rewarding. And then he decided to give education a go. He was recommended by a friend that he would he would try a job in l e working to work in L.
Claudio:E. S. Yeah. And now he's loving it. Yeah.
Claudio:He he's got a musical background as well, so he's bringing his own instruments and playing music to the children. Yeah. And he's having a massive impact in those children's lives. Yeah. And when I asked him, like, what is it that, you know, made you make the move, the the take the leap into earlier education?
Claudio:He said it's the reward the reward that he gets out of the job. Yeah. Yes. There are some stressful moments in the in the role, but, again, as you rightly said, that's everywhere in in in the employment world. Mhmm.
Claudio:But I think the rewards outdo the the challenges Yeah. A lot in LES.
Tim:What a what a great story. And if you're thinking about, you know, perhaps you know, perhaps there's there's I I imagine there's probably two points. Right? There's there's there's there's boys and young men who are thinking about where to start their career, and perhaps there's sort of guys who are a bit further into a career that they're not loving. Like, what do you think those two types?
Tim:What do you think those two guys need to hear about working with kids or or working in early years that might change their mind about it as a career?
Claudio:I think especially with career changers, often they go into a career path because again of societal expectations or not necessarily pursuing their dreams. So I think when it comes to early years, think you've got an opportunity there and I think that we can say that for secondary school boys as well. You've you really have an opportunity there to bring your own interests into the world. So for example, the guy who plays music at home Yeah. Is doing that in the classroom and encouraging children to, you know, learn through music.
Claudio:We had the guy who used to work in DIY and he's now doing DIY, like woodworking activities with the children. Yeah. So I think it's a job that's highly customizable in a way. Yeah. So you can really bring any interest that you have outside, you know, from personal life into the into the role and seeing children learning after your interest and after your input into into the the classroom routine is the best feeling ever.
Claudio:Yeah. Because you it really helps you realize that you're having an impact in the way the future society is is shaped and you can bring your own values and, you know, provided that they're good ones. Yeah.
Tim:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Do you think one of the or or some of the biggest misconceptions are about, guess, working in early years education in general and then, I I guess, a man's role in early years education?
Claudio:I think the biggest misconception is that men are not welcomed in a nursery environment. I think there are a lot of workers, staff members, managers out there that really actively want more men to work in earlier settings. Yes, we do get the occasional parent not wanting, you know, a man to change a child's nappy, but a lot of other parents out there, they're quite supportive of having a mixed gender teaching workforce, especially with the nurseries that we are working with because we are helping them set in our policies that are inclusive. We work in partnership with their parents as well, we educate them on the benefits of having more men in. So I believe, yes, a man might be discouraged to apply for a job in a nursery environment because they might think that it's not a job for them and it's a job just for women or he might not feel welcomed.
Claudio:That's something probably that was happening many years ago, but now today we have support systems in place that can facilitate that, one of them being our organization of course. So you know if anybody ever is considering getting in a career where they get an opportunity to educate children, whether that's in a nursery or it's a home, you know, I do welcome them to get in touch with our community members because we've got a lot of people out there coming from all different walks of life who are willing to share the story and provide emotional support and even like training, you know, on how to get started. Anything from like putting your CV together, preparing for an interview, expectations from, you know, first day in the nursery to more complicated matters and more advanced notions. So, yeah, definitely men are welcome. Yeah.
Claudio:They want it. Let's put it that way. They want it. Yes. And a misconception might be that they might not be, but that's not necessarily true.
Claudio:It depends on the type of setting you go to. It depends on where you land your opportunity.
Tim:Yeah.
Claudio:So that's why I always recommend to select nurseries that work in partnership with us because they are actually taking active steps to Yeah. To diversify their their teaching workforce.
Tim:So if in in in five years time, like, the work that your organization do is doing has been a massive success. Like where do you hope to be numbers wise in terms of the industry?
Claudio:Representation wise? Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. I was never asked that actually. I think, where are we now?
Claudio:Two to 3% in five years time, probably around 10%. Yeah. Just because of how long it takes to change people's perspectives on certain aspects. But yeah, probably 10%.
Tim:Yeah.
Claudio:I would say. Yeah. Do think? Do you think that's achievable?
Tim:Yeah. I mean Yourself? I don't know. It's just like it it's a bit of a I think my background is in recruitment and I think about this as a little bit of like a recruitment challenge and like you can't recruit what's not there and you can't make people apply for something that they don't think they're suitable for. Right?
Tim:Mhmm. So to go back to what we said earlier, it does feel like a big culture change piece that it's just gonna take lots of little things and lots of different places to get men to think differently about, how they can make a difference in the world, how they can make a difference in children's lives
Claudio:Yeah.
Tim:And how they can play a part in the way boys are turning into young men with certain beliefs about the way they should show up in the world and the way women should show up in the world.
Claudio:Yeah. No, I totally agree with you. That's why we are trying to adopt a holistic approach to the matter. We don't just do training for nursery staff or we don't just do policy development and things like that. We also go out there to the community.
Claudio:We work with local authorities, for example, with community centers, children's centers. We try to educate as many people as possible regardless of where they work and what industry they work in because it's more like of a world wide Yeah. Narrative change that we need to that we need to achieve, not just within the earliest sector. Yeah. Primarily because of the parental concerns that sometimes can derive from from having a man working with younger children.
Claudio:Yeah. So, yeah, there's a lot of work to be done. Keeps us busy for sure. Yeah. But yeah, I'm still saying that with a smile on my face.
Claudio:Good.
Tim:Good for you. Well, long long may that continue. And look, what's I guess in the context of all of this, what does healthy masculinity mean to you?
Claudio:I think healthy masculinity is when men foster a culture of accepting vulnerability. We do want to get in a community where we normalize saying, I'm not okay. I'm not having a good day. That's something that we don't get in nursery environments because we are surrounded by women. So sometimes our ego tells us to just say, I'm fine.
Claudio:Yeah. And we wanna show seniority and we want to show that we're tough and that's totally unhealthy. So for me, that's not healthy masculinity. For me, healthy masculinity is when you admit that you're not having a good day and you seek support for it. And most importantly is that anything that you choose to do in life, no matter whether that's seen as traditionally masculine or not, you're doing it for yourself and you're not doing it for societal expectations.
Claudio:I'll give you an example. Like, I like going to the gym. Mhmm. And I often get remarks about saying, oh, you're the typical gym bro, blah blah blah. Yeah.
Claudio:I'm like, I don't do it for the looks. Don't do it for the status. I just do it because it makes me feel healthy. It makes me feel like I can climb a ladder with no issues. I can lift heavy boxes.
Claudio:Yeah. Not because I need to do it instead of a woman, but because I like to be independent. Yeah. To me, that's the realization of healthy masculinity. Not having to do something for societal expectations.
Claudio:Yeah. And accepting where you're feeling vulnerable.
Tim:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And yeah. I mean, I think if we think about people taking careers because of societal expectations, you know, that that might be one of the changes we need to see.
Claudio:Yeah. You'd be surprised to see
Tim:how
Claudio:many men they realize that they're not doing something that they enjoy. And whenever I tell them about my journey, they were like, oh, I wish I did that earlier on in life. Yeah. I spoke with a lawyer who has been a stay at home dad Yeah. For his daughter and he was absolutely loving the experience of educating his child to the point that he was considering switching.
Claudio:He said he got to a stage in his life where finance wasn't an issue or not concern, an interest anymore. So he just wanted to do something that made him feel fulfilled. And he was actually considering coming to work in nursery. So we watched this space. Yeah.
Claudio:Did get to share that case study soon. Yeah. That's an example, you know, what you've just what you've just shared.
Tim:Yeah. Amazing. Well, any any final thoughts for men who are listening or or anything you'd want to share about the work you're doing that people should hear about?
Claudio:Yeah, absolutely. If you are ever considering working in early education, don't be afraid to get in touch with us. You know, we've got a really strong community of men who have seen it all. So, you know, even if it's just asking a question or getting direction to an inclusive setting, don't hesitate to get in touch with us. We've got lots of resources on our website including webinars from men who are at different stages of their career as well.
Claudio:So we've got webinars led by apprentices or led by leaders and managers, nursery owners, and so on. So the width the breadth of content that we have out there is really, really vast. And even if you just want to reach out to have a circle of friends, just don't be afraid to get in touch with us because we are there for that as well, not just for careers. So definitely get in touch with us because we'll be able to help any man out there who wants to take the leap into getting in a caregiving or educational career. We can bridge that gap between them and the nurseries that are out there.
Tim:Amazing. Good stuff, No problem. How are feeling?
Claudio:Good. Yeah? Feels like, yeah. Had like a good chat with a friend and opened up about loads of the things that I haven't shared in a very long time. So Yeah.
Claudio:Yeah. Very nice. Good.
Tim:Thank you. Good stuff. Well, look, thanks for It's coming it's an important topic and yeah, I've I've been exposed to the industry a little bit and I've gotten two young kids myself and it just feels so important and such a such a significant thing that we could change for the culture of, you know, boys and men growing up in this country.
Claudio:Yeah. Agree.
Tim:Alright. Right. Thanks for coming in. Good to have you on the podcast, Claudio.
Claudio:Thank you very much for having me, Tim. Great to be here.
Tim:So there you go. That was my conversation with Claudio. Like, what an amazing guy. His energy is contagious. And I think, as I said in the intro, a really great ambassador for why more men should be involved in early years education.
Tim:I hadn't anticipated that it would be quite such an important topic and a link through to how boys and men are showing up today with the formation of early years gender stereotypes. But I think, as you can take from the discussion, it is something that deserves our attention as just one of the many things that needs to go into the cultural change around what it is to be a man today. As always, if you haven't already, please like, subscribe, and share these episodes, and that's how this movement will grow. Once again, work hard, be kind. Thanks for listening, and I'll catch you on the next one.