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Our Christian formation classes are taught by the clergy of Church of the Incarnation (Dallas, TX). Journey with us as each season unfolds.
Alright. We'll go ahead and get started. Let's pray.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Father again, we thank you for this opportunity to study your word. We thank you for this church and the emphasis it places on the scriptures. Father, I pray that we would enter into this space today with open hearts, open minds, and just a willing heart and to serve you and to walk forward into what you are calling us today and beyond. I pray that we would be receptive and open to the kind of kingdom that is ushered in by your son and pray that we would be faithful servants in that kingdom as we go forward in our lives. We love you Lord and we pray these things in Christ's name and by the spirit.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Amen. Okay. I've got some sheets in the back there. Let me go ahead and just start by saying that we some people have asked we will be offering a course going forward in the spring, so we're gonna be keep moving through the canon of scripture. So I'll teach a course on Exodus in January for four or five weeks or so, and then a parishioner, Mark Lorette, is gonna teach a course on Ruth and Ruth and Mission, the idea of mission through the lens of Ruth.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:He'll teach that during Lent. I think he's four weeks there we have for Sunday school during Lent. And then I'll be working through the rest of the Pentateuch or most of it after that. I'll teach on Leviticus and Numbers at the end of the spring. So we'll move forward with that and I understand not everybody was here last week necessarily so I'll do a little bit of recap this morning on where we were last week and get into this.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:But as we are in the second week of Advent here, I wanted to sort of reflect on the book of Zechariah, a book that's not studied a whole lot by a lot of people, and it's a book that can be difficult in many ways to understand. We talked last week about Zechariah being one of the post exilic prophets. The three prophets that are ministering in a post exilic or post exile context, and those prophets are Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi, which are your three last books of your Old Testament, Right? So and I mentioned last week that the best way to read Zechariah is to read it within the context of Haggai, and another book that may not be studied as much, but it's a great book, it's only two chapters. And Haggai is two chapters, but Haggai's emphasis is on calling the people as they've come back from exile, calling them to rebuild the temple that had been destroyed during the captivity.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Zechariah's emphasis is on calling the people to covenant renewal, having them sort of renew their commitment to the Lord, to Yahweh, in a post exilic world. And we talked about how this book is broken up into two different sections. Most scholars see two big divisions in the book of Zechariah. Chapters one through eight, you see there's a live mic over there, so I can't get too close to that. I don't know how to turn it off.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Chapters one through eight are a lot of oracles and visions, this apocalyptic literature, this idea that Zechariah is seeing these visions and he is, as a prophet, interpreting these visions, trying to grasp what they are, and then communicating them in his writing and relaying them to the community. These visions can be difficult to understand, and we talked last week about the importance of not trying to overanalyze apocalyptic literature, not trying to stand over apocalyptic literature and dissect it every little minute detail, but rather letting it wash over us, letting us inhabit that literature, letting us sort of sit with it and say, what does this mean to the covenant community? You have a very traumatic experience that has occurred to this covenant community over the last seventy years, living in captivity in Babylon. Remember Babylon is always this foil throughout the Old Testament, it's always this symbol of sin and oppression and godlessness and all these things. So the idea that the people of God would be living in a godless country, a godless empire, was something that was profoundly difficult and disturbing.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And we talked last week as well about how the people of God, the Israelites, are not just conceiving of themselves as sort of inhabiting this this sense of unity of place or time right here in front of them, what they've been through in Babylon and post Babylon, but they have this greater sense of organic unity throughout their history. They feel the ups and downs, the trials, the winds, all of the experiences of the Hebrew people throughout history. So, what they're experiencing as they come out of Babylon back into the Promised Land is not just the trauma or the difficulty of transition as they come into the land that they once occupied, but it's their whole history they're carrying with them in a way that the modern mind has a difficult time conceiving. We have a difficult time understanding this sense of organic unity that they have felt throughout their history. So that is very much a part of their story, is sort of embodying this and living this out.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And of course, they are here receiving these visions from Zechariah one-eight and we talked about how the end of this section, chapters six, seven and eight, are really, you start to see, even throughout the whole book, but you see in six, seven and eight this real saturation and intoxication with the coming Kingdom of God. Okay? Zechariah is announcing the kingdom of God, and he is doing this in a way that's both broad and general and also very specific. You start to see these prophecies emerge in the kingdom in chapter six, seven, and eight. Does anybody remember what that kingdom sort of looks like from last week?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:What are what are some of the marks of the kingdom? I don't fully remember who was here last week so I'm not going to call anybody. But but if you happen to remember, it was last week. It was only seven days ago. That was injustice.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Okay. Okay. So, we had a sense of the ethics of the kingdom. Ethics of the kingdom. Of which justice, mercy, others that he lays out for us.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:What else did we see last week? We gotta have a king of the kingdom, right? A king of the kingdom, right? And that king is called by Zechariah? A branch, right?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:This idea of a branch. And what's significant about a branch, that kind of language, that sort of metaphor? Branch from Jesse. Okay. It's not from Jesse.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And It's this idea that it grows out from among the people, right? From among their own. Okay, so you have the, what we say, the king of the kingdom, the ethics of the kingdom. And what was the final thing? You have the king ruling the kingdom.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:You have the ethics, what we're called to do in the kingdom, in kingdom life. And what was the the what? Peace. The peace of the kingdom. Very good.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:So, the peace of the kingdom. What the kingdom's actually going to look like? You're looking at your notes from last week? Yeah. That's good.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:That's good. Thank you. I appreciate that. And so the peace of the kingdom. And what does this kingdom look like in Zechariah's vision?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Do you recall? It looks like he said, old men and old women sitting in the streets, right? With their canes? Remember that? And what else?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Playing in the streets. Okay, freely. Such is the kingdom. Okay? Which seems to suggest that that was not a reality they could have expected prior to that.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Perhaps they should have expected prior to that danger in the streets, violence in the streets, a politics of power, a politics of oppression, a politics that would not allow for that. So that is what is highlighted by Zechariah in the last three chapters of that section. And so as we look at this book, we're seeing this emergence that God is doing something new with his people, as we saw in chapter two of Zechariah. God is setting out on a new course for his people, and you see that start to be demonstrated. Now, one thing to keep in mind about the prophets is that, for the most part, prophets are not predicting the future.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Prophets are not looking out and trying to make predictions of the future, although they do that from time to time. Mostly what prophets are doing are calling people to repentance, calling people to justice, calling people back to the Lord. That's the main ministry of prophets. Now, one challenging aspect of this, when you read Zechariah or any other prophet, when they are looking at the future, we don't always clearly know, as readers, how far in the future he is talking about. Are we talking about the near future or the distant future?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And that sort of a tension we have to live with as interpreters of the biblical text is that there is a sense in which he may be talking about both. He may be sort of seeing a realization of both in some ways. And so as you see this language here, definitely some of it, as Christians, as being recipients of fuller revelation from God, we definitely see certain things jump out at us. Right? This idea of a branch.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:These other things we're going to see today. We see certain things jump out at us in this. But it can be difficult to understand, and as we approach and think about the kingdom in relation, especially as we think about this Advent season, the coming of the kingdom with Jesus, we sort of want to be mindful of the politics of what this calls us to. I've called this two part class Zechariah and the politics of hope. Because as we talked about last week, we live in a political context and even most Christians have sort of fallen into a political context and sort of abide by the rules of a a political context that is a politics of power.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:A politics of despair, this doom scrolling we do. A politics of hopelessness. And what the scriptures call us to, I think, is a whole different conception of politics, a whole different imagination, a great political imagination that we can embody. And there's a great quote from Eugene Peterson that I love. And I remember father John Jordan mentioning Eugene Peterson to read his books because he's so great.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:I love his writings and I wish I jumped into his writings much earlier in life than I did. But he's got a great book on the book of Revelation called Reverse Thunder. And in that book he says this, he says, The gospel of Jesus Christ is more political than anyone imagines, but in a way that no one guesses. Okay, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is more political than anyone imagines, but in a way that no one guesses. So I want to sort of use that as our starting point as we think about the rest of the book of Zechariah, is that we are being called by the scriptures to a whole different, I think, political imagination and how we think about politics.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:It comes from the word polis. Right? It's just society, people. This idea of how we organize ourselves, others, what we think about rule, and law, and grace, and so forth. And so, as we move forward, I want to kind of hone in on the next section of Zechariah here, nine through 14.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And I want to explore that, now that we've looked at the first section again, and see what we can draw from this next section. This next section of Zechariah is very different than the first eight chapters. And so I want to go through this here and kind of walk through this. What you see in Zechariah, and I think I've got it on your second point on your handout there, this idea of Zechariah nine through 14 being sort of summarized by this idea of the oracles and the coming of the king. Oracles and the coming of the king.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:This idea of the reality and the ushering in of the kingdom. And again, this is not fully developed in some sense. Is it near? Is it far? Is it both?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:But we have here this this idea that the coming kingdom is starting to emerge. And so if you have you on your sheet, I think on the back there, I've got chapter nine, I think. Oh, man. I did it again. Forgot to get myself a sheet here.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Let me grab I'm not gonna steal yours again. I stole that last week. I hope that's true. Oh, do? Thanks.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And so I'll jump to Zechariah nine here. Sometimes I toggle between different translations. I think the ESV may capture this a little better in chapter nine. Zechariah nine, if you follow with me, nine starting with verse nine, rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion, shout aloud, oh daughter of Jerusalem. Behold, your king is coming to you, righteous and having salvation is he, humble and mounted on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall seek he shall speak peace to the nations. His rule shall be from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth. As for you also, because of the blood of my covenant with you, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit. Return to your stronghold, o prisoners of hope. Today, I declare that I will restore to you double.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:For I have bent Judah as my bow. I have made Ephraim its arrow. I will stir up your sons, O Zion, against your sons, O Greece, and wield you like a warrior's sword. Then the Lord will appear over them, and his arrow will go forth like lightning. The Lord God will sound the trumpet and will march forth in the whirlwinds of the South.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:The Lord of hosts will protect them and they shall devour and tread down the sling stones and they shall drink and roar as if drunk with wine and be full like a bowl, drenched like the corners of the altar. On that day the Lord their God will save them as the flock of his people for like the jewels of a crown they shall shine on his land. For how great is his goodness and how great his beauty. Grain shall make the young men flourish and new wine, the young women. Okay, so we have here a lot of indicators of what this coming kingdom is going to look like from Zechariah.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And one thing I see in this text and going forward here in the next several chapters is the long awaited arrival of the king. We've talked about Israel having a sense of itself, having a sense of where it is to be, but there's always been indicators along the way that Israel is going to have a Messiah, a Messiah figure, an individual, a person who is going to lead them and rule them because the language that you see throughout scripture is more heightened and lengthened when it comes to this particular person, all the way back in Deuteronomy or before. So you see this long awaited arrival of the true king, you see that in verses nine through 10 there, right? The very first verses there, this idea, and we'll talk about this, of riding on a donkey. You also see in the next two chapters, if you kind of go through these by two chapters apiece, you see in the next two chapters this idea of the renewal of the covenant and the return from exile.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Okay? In chapters 11 through 12, as you see, the covenant language being used, I will set your prisoners free from the waterless pit, That is Babylon was this waterless pit, was this place of desolation, this place where they felt dry, probably physically and spiritually. You can't underestimate in the Hebrew mind the importance of Jerusalem and temple worship. Okay? So the idea of exile is not just a physical or social displacement.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:It's a spiritual displacement in many ways for the Israelites. And of course, they wouldn't really separate this idea of social, physical, and spiritual. And so for them, it's a rending. It's a tearing them out of their true who their true selves are. And that's why the exile was so excruciating, so so painful for the Israelites in coming back from exile and this idea that the covenant will be renewed, this promise that God is making with them to renew the covenant and return them from exile fully is a promise that is going to be received with much solace.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And so, the third thing you see here is this idea that in the next few chapters from 13 to 17, you see this there's a motif that runs through the Old Testament as God as the divine warrior. Okay? You've seen this throughout the Old Testament probably, this idea that God will will take out Israel's enemies, that God will defeat Israel's enemies, that God will protect Israel from their enemies, these kinds of things. So you see that in the next several verses in chapter nine thirteen through 17 and that God will judge and have victory over Israel's enemies. In other words, Israel is going to be back in the land in a place of peace for them.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Okay? So you see that worked out. I think what's also interesting here as we move through the book of Zechariah, so chapter nine gives us a lot there to think about, but as you get into chapter 10, and I think I've put this on the back of your sheet as well. Maybe I didn't. I don't know if I did.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:No, I didn't. I'll go ahead and read it to you. We talked last week about how much of the Old Testament, especially as you get through kind of the books of the kingdom, you know, first, second Samuel, first and second Kings, first and second Chronicles, the the story starts to focus, the lens kind of comes in and starts to focus on the Southern Kingdom Of Judah. Of course, you have this division of the kingdoms in first Kings, right? It is division Northern Kingdom, Southern Kingdom, Northern Kingdom called Israel, Southern Kingdom called Judah, Northern Kingdom is taken into captivity in Assyria, Southern Kingdom is taken into captivity in Babylon.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And then the focus is really a lot becomes on the Southern Kingdom. And people began to ask, well, what happened to the Northern Kingdom? They went into exile in Assyria, but they're not the ones that return from exile under Zerubbabel. With Ezra, Nehemiah, these post exilic prophecies, they're not the ones that we see returning from exile. And so you have these two families of the Southern Kingdom returning.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:What about those 10 lost tribes of Israel? Whatever happened to them? Well, think Zechariah speaks to that. I think Zechariah actually calls us to consider the return of those 10 lost tribes of Israel. And as you can see here, if you have your Bibles with you, Zechariah 10, in chapter 10, verses six through 12, he says this, speaking of the Lord saying this, I will strengthen the house of Judah, okay, that's the Southern Kingdom, and I will save the house of Joseph, That's a reference to the Northern Kingdom.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:I will bring them back because I have compassion on them and they shall be as though I had not rejected them. For I am the Lord their God and I will answer them. Then Ephraim shall become like a mighty warrior and their hearts shall be glad as with wine. Their children shall see it and be glad. Their hearts shall rejoice in the Lord.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:I will whistle for them and gather them in. This big promise he's making here, this regathering of the nation of Israel. For I have redeemed them and they shall be as many as they were before. Though I scattered them among the nations, yet in the far countries they shall remember me and with their children they shall live and return. I will bring them home from the land of Egypt which is far south and gather them from Assyria, the Northeast, and I will bring them to the land of Gilead into Lebanon till there is no room for them.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:He shall pass through the sea of troubles and strike down the waves of the sea and all the depths of the Nile shall be dried up. The pride of Assyria shall be laid low and the scepter of Egypt shall depart. I will make them strong in the Lord and they shall walk in his name, declares the Lord. So we see this promise, at least on the surface here, see a promise of the restoration not just of the Southern Kingdom Of Judah, but the Northern Kingdom as well. And I think it forces us to ask the question again, like we said earlier, is this something that's going to be fulfilled in the near future or in the distant future?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Is this something that Israel is going to experience in the coming years from this post exilic prophecy? Or is this sort of an eschatological expectation? Is this something that the prophet is speaking to of the distant future? Some sort of regathering, bringing together that is mentioned, perhaps even in reference to what Paul says in Romans 11. This idea of Israel being saved.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:This idea of Israel coming back together. It's hard to tell. I don't have hard and fast answer as to how this is being fulfilled, but certainly you see this language of regathering and there's a certain specificity from the author of Zechariah. Now some people argue that the lost tribes of Israel should be interpreted as the Gentiles and the Gentiles coming into the church and this idea of Jew and Gentile coming in. Certainly Jews and Gentiles are in the church.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Certainly you see this coming together, a big emphasis of the New Testament, but is that what's being prophesied here? You might actually see an expectation of these northern tribes coming together as the Southern tribes had already done so by the time of this prophecy. And you see this also in chapter eight as well by the way. And then in chapter 14 as we kind of move through the book of Zechariah 14 is the last chapter in Zechariah and you see this idea of God will make his throne as king over all the earth. This is leaving you with this idea that God will be on the throne over all the earth.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Zechariah fourteen nine speaks to this very specifically, and the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one, in his name one. What's that remind you of? This idea of one, o n e, not w o n. The Shema, right?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Deuteronomy six. So there's this idea of this covenant renewal kind of language here. You see it in the beginning of your Old Testament, the Shema, Deuteronomy six, and you see it all the way here towards the end of your Old Testament. Here, in the emphasis on the Lord being one, and you sort of see covenant language throughout. A lot of people say that chapter 13, the end of chapter 13, is a covenant formula, and chapter 14 is basically the explication, the explanation of chapter thirteen's covenant formula.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And then also you see here in chapter 14 the celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles or the Feast of Booths. So you're seeing this idea that this is a feast that the Israelites had celebrated since the time of wandering in the wilderness way back in their history. We're talking about a thousand years ago. And here they are expected to come back and celebrate this feast again, this feast of tabernacles and booze or booze. And so, in the midst of that, in the midst of all this, you see three big prophecies.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:What we now know of as three big prophecies in these chapters nine through 14, that sort of, for the modern reader, the Christian especially, is sort of seeing these, knowing their New Testament, and sort of seizing on these particular prophecies. What is this kingdom going to look like? Who will inhabit it? Who will rule? What does this look like?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:So, if we look back at chapter nine, we've already seen this idea that the king is coming to you, to the people, humble and mounted on a donkey. Zechariah nine nine. Certainly, there's this idea that riding on a donkey is an expression of humility. Right? But I think the bigger thread here that we can explore is this idea that a person or a king riding on a donkey is really a sign of the Messiah, this Messianic kind of figure.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Okay, you see this all the way back in Genesis 49. Genesis 49 is the last language we have from Jacob. He's blessing his sons in Genesis 49, and there's this recollection or this this part of his blessing that is talking about this figure being with or on a donkey, this this future anticipatory figure being associated with riding on a donkey. You see this all the way back there. You also see it in second Samuel, second Samuel 16.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:When David is fleeing from Absalom in second Samuel, David is given a donkey to ride on. Okay? And so I think this language you see in Zechariah is sort of channeling this idea of the future Davidic king. This idea that the Davidic king, this future Davidic king who will have an everlasting kingdom, who will rule forever, is someone who is in line with David as we've seen second Samuel seven, this idea of this future figure, and he's going to be associated with that. So this king is associated with riding on a donkey.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Also, Zechariah 13, which I have on the back of your sheet here. Zechariah 13, another very striking prophecy here. Thirteen:seven, awake, O sword, against my shepherd, against the man who is my associate, says the Lord of hosts. Strike the shepherd and the sheep may be scattered. I will turn my hand against the little ones.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Where do we see this in the New Testament? Yeah, right before in Gethsemane, right? Right before he's arrested or as he's anticipating his arrest, right? And he tells this to his disciples, right? That they've fallen asleep, the shepherd will be struck and the sheep will scatter.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And then of course you have here in Zechariah 12 which I have on your sheet as well. Zechariah 12, and I will pour out a spirit of compassion supplication on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem so that when they look on the one whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him as one mourns for an only child and weep bitterly over him as one weeps over a firstborn. On that day, the mourning of Jerusalem will be as great as the mourning for Hidad Hiraman in the Plain Of Megiddo. Okay, this idea that the Israelites themselves, their own people, will pierce one of their own and then they will mourn that piercing. They will cry and weep and mourn the piercing, the killing of one of their own.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And so you see these sort of jump out at you. And so as we reflect back on this, you have this idea of a Davidic king who rides on a donkey. Okay. What else do we have here? What did just mention there?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Okay, the shepherd. Okay. Morning. Okay, the morning, this idea of morning. Scattering.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Yep. Yep. The scattering. Okay, that kind of goes with this. And certainly you saw that for a time, right?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:In the New Testament, right? One who is pierced. All right, this idea of piercing. Right, so you're starting to get a picture of what this kingdom looks like. And so you have this idea of Israel's story is taking on a new sort of a new era, as it were.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:A new time has entered Israel's history here. And what I find fascinating is, as I look back at Israel's history, and the long story of Israel's history, and how God has been with his people, I think about this as a decisive time here in the post exilic period, and as we think about the coming of the Kingdom four hundred years later. And think about if God is going to redeem Israel, he was going to enter Israel's history in human flesh, as a person, through the Incarnation. I find that so fascinating when I look back at Israel's long history, that he is going to enter Israel's history in human flesh. Because this Messiah is the true Israel, is he not?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:This Messiah is the true Israelite. He is the Israelite that the other Israelites could not be. He is the perfect keeper of the law. He is the covenant keeper. He is the true man.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:He is the true man that Israel had sort of aspired to be all these years, but couldn't be because of the Israelites' fallenness. And so God will take on human flesh and be the man that will keep the covenant and the law. He is also Israel's God. He is the embodiment of Israel's God, as the Apostle Paul tells us in Philippians two. He is the one who also established the covenant with Israel.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:He is the God man. And so you see this play out here in this anticipation in the book of Zechariah is that he is the covenant, the faithful covenant keeper. He is the faithful prophet where the other prophets fell short. He is the one who is faithful. He is the true priest.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:He is the true high priest, the eternal high priest who doesn't just come and go throughout Israel's history. Jesus doesn't need to offer a sacrifice for himself because he didn't have any sin. Like Aaron had to offer a sacrifice for himself as part of the sacrificial system. Jesus does not have to do that, the book of Hebrews tells us, because he had no sin. And he's also the true king.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Jesus being the true king. The king that Israel never fully had. They had some good kings. They had some bad kings. But they never had a king like Jesus Christ.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And so as we think about this vision of the kingdom ruled by the king of kings, Jesus Christ, we've already talked about this, like, in breaking of the kingdom that we're experiencing from the incarnation to our own time and the fullness to be realized in the future. But it's already breaking in. It's already been breaking in these last two thousand years, and I'll wrap up with this. We have to ask ourselves what our allegiances are in terms of kingdom politics. What are our political allegiances at the end of the day?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Again, Eugene Peterson has a great quote from this book as well. And you could substitute Rome, America, or any country here in this particular quote. It applies to any. He says, We overestimate the politics of Rome, and we underestimate the politics of grace. We overestimate the politics of Rome, and we underestimate the politics of grace.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:And one thing I like to think about is that so many, as a church historian, I think about all these great figures throughout Christian history. And so many of them, if not every single one to a person, is someone who elevated the politics of grace over the politics of Rome, someone who lived by the politics of grace. And they were extreme, not just in our time, but even in their own time. And I used to ask my students, look, it's great when we study Francis of Assisi or Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Julian of Norwich or any of these figures throughout Christian history. That's great.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:But would you actually be comfortable walking the Christian life with them, next to them, in their presence? Or would it be so extreme, their commitment be so total to the gospel, that it would make us bristle? There's a certain comfort in having a thousand years of church history between me and my heroes. I can sort of backwag, close the book, can put it on my shelf, sort of be done with it. But if you really read someone like a Dietrich Bonhoeffer or Francis of Assisi, his life, or you name it, whoever, Think about whether you could live the politics they live, whether you would be willing to live the politics they live, the politics of grace as they were trying to embody and live in their lives.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:That's a challenge for me as well. Okay? I've studied these figures for years. It is so easy to say that's my hero. That's one of my heroes.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:It's another thing to enter into the space that they occupied and they inhabited and what they believed about the kingdom. Dorothy Day, another one, Catholic Worker Movement. These figures who might make us pause and say, I don't know if I'm really operating from the politics of grace as much as I think I am. So, with that, we'll conclude. Thanks for your time.
Dr. Stephen Bagby:We'll let you get to church. But any questions, by the way? I didn't open up any opportunity for questions. Good? Answered all your questions?
Dr. Stephen Bagby:Thanks. All right. Well, I'll see you in the spring if you want to come back. Thank you.