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What does it take to build—and rebuild—trust in leadership? In this powerful episode, Dr. Henry Cloud, bestselling author of books like Boundaries and Trust, reveals why trust is the foundation of every healthy relationship, team, and organization—and what leaders can do when it’s been broken. From identifying the key elements of trust to recognizing barriers like defensiveness, fear, and narcissism, Dr. Cloud offers practical insights for leaders in any setting.
Whether you're leading a church, ministry, nonprofit, or business, this conversation will challenge and equip you to lead with greater self-awareness, emotional health, and relational integrity.
Subscribe for more conversations on leadership, trust, and building healthy teams.
Subscribe for more conversations on leadership, trust, and building healthy teams.
About Dr. Cloud:
Dr. Henry Cloud is an acclaimed leadership expert, clinical psychologist, and New York Times best-selling author. His 46 books, including the iconic Boundaries, have sold over 20 million copies worldwide. He has an extensive executive coaching background and experience as a leadership consultant, devoting the majority of his time to working with CEOs, leadership teams, and executives to improve performance, leadership skills, and culture.
Dr. Cloud lives in Los Angeles with his wife, Tori, and their two daughters, Olivia and Lucy.
Additional Resources:
Dr. Cloud lives in Los Angeles with his wife, Tori, and their two daughters, Olivia and Lucy.
Additional Resources:
Why I Believe
If this conversation resonated with you, don’t keep it to yourself—like, share, and subscribe for more insights on healthy leadership.
If this conversation resonated with you, don’t keep it to yourself—like, share, and subscribe for more insights on healthy leadership.
Creators and Guests
Guest
Dr. Henry Cloud
Dr. Henry Cloud is a clinical psychologist, pastor to pastors, and New York Times bestselling author. His 46 books, including the iconic Boundaries, have sold over 20 million copies worldwide. Throughout his storied career as a clinician, he started treatment centers, created breakthrough new models rooted in research, and has been a leading voice on issues of mental health and leadership on a global scale.
What is Behind the Seal?
ECFA's blue seal has been a symbol of trust and accountability for over four decades, but what does that mean? Is it the seal alone that inspires confidence, or is it the nonprofits and churches behind the seal?
Tune in to conversations between ECFA's President and CEO, Michael Martin, and prominent leaders. Together, we'll share stories from behind the scenes of various Christ-centered ministries and churches, highlighting how trust serves as the foundation of it all.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:29:17
Dr. Henry Cloud
Trust fuels life. You'll never scale any business or any ministry without trust. Is this person. Is this organization? Are they attuned to me and really understand what I need? Because if we don't understand what somebody needs, they shouldn't trust us. Knowing who to trust and who to withhold it from, and how to fix it when it gets broken is a big, big issue.
00:00:29:18 - 00:00:58:01
Ryan Gordon
Trust can make or break a leader. And in today's episode, author, leadership consultant and psychologist Dr. Henry Cloud joins our host, Michael Martin to tell us why this was a rich conversation. I especially appreciated the reminder that trust is the foundation of everything thriving organization, and that the best leaders don't demand trust. They earn it by truly understanding those they lead and inviting accountability,
00:00:58:06 - 00:01:10:02
Ryan Gordon
rather than resisting it. And the importance of listening to the key ingredients of real integrity. This conversation will challenge you. Let's dive in.
00:01:10:04 - 00:01:14:13
Michael Martin
Dr. Cloud, thanks for stopping by the ECFA podcast. How are you today?
00:01:14:15 - 00:01:17:04
Dr. Henry Cloud
Yeah. I'm well. It's good to be with you.
00:01:17:06 - 00:01:30:11
Michael Martin
Yeah. Thank you so much. I'm excited for this conversation. As I've shared with you, been really impacted by your work over the years, as I know many of our listeners have been to. So I feel like I'm getting a free hour of leadership coaching. This is awesome.
00:01:30:12 - 00:01:35:03
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, it's probably worth what you paid for it. So there you go.
00:01:35:05 - 00:01:56:08
Michael Martin
No, I don't know about that. This will be great. And, with ECFA for, our mission of enhancing trust in Christ centered churches and ministry is excited to have some conversation with you around. You've written the book on trust, and so we're looking forward to, just some wisdom from you on that front. But before we jump into that, this is what we call our Behind the Seal podcast.
00:01:56:08 - 00:02:13:17
Michael Martin
We go behind the seal of ECFA. We go behind the scenes with those, who are joining us. And so we know you've written a lot of different books over the years. Maybe peel back the curtain for us and let us go behind the scenes with you. Is there one of your books? Is there a particular favorite?
00:02:13:17 - 00:02:22:14
Michael Martin
Is it sort of like a child where you're not supposed to have a favorite? What about your books? Do you have one that stands out?
00:02:22:16 - 00:02:42:19
Dr. Henry Cloud
I do, but it's it's a little bit like. I remember I was doing a parenting seminar one time, and it was the title was Raising Successful Kids or something cheesy like that. And this lady asked you guys and she goes, so if you if there was one thing you had to tell parents, just one thing about parent, what would it be?
00:02:42:21 - 00:03:03:06
Dr. Henry Cloud
So there's not just one thing. You can't reduce it to one thing. She goes, yeah, but if there was, if there was and said, you can't, she goes, yeah. And she kept hammering me for one. You. I said I’d raise them to not grow up and ask stupid questions. You you can't. That's it. Let me hear - do you want air, water or food?
00:03:03:07 - 00:03:30:23
Dr. Henry Cloud
Pick one. You know, you sometimes you can't. And I say that to say, it is like a, you know, it is like kids there. I'm not a, I'm not an author in my mind. I'm a practitioner. So I spend 80 to 100 days a year in the war rooms with CEOs and their teams and and businesses and ministries and organizations.
00:03:31:01 - 00:04:00:03
Dr. Henry Cloud
And to me, the work writes the books. I just have to type, you know, what I've seen and what works and what doesn't work and the kind of issues people were dealing with. And so if you come at it from that perspective, in the leadership space, because, you know, I've had two parallel tracks for decades, one in the personal growth and one in the business leadership space, because that's where my work reflects.
00:04:00:03 - 00:04:36:18
Dr. Henry Cloud
And, if you look at it from that perspective, in this context, I would say, in the leadership, space, my book integrity, because it, it kind of it gets to a really important issue. And that is especially in Christian organizations, is that we excuse me, we use the word integrity. And this also relates to the trust discussion.
00:04:36:19 - 00:04:59:06
Dr. Henry Cloud
We use the word integrity in a very sub biblical way. You know, somebody says that, you know, they have integrity. Usually what they're meaning is they don't lie, cheat or steal. But the scriptures are clear, as is all of our everybody's worked with somebody who wouldn't lie to you or steal, but you don't want to work with them again for some other reason.
00:04:59:08 - 00:05:33:16
Dr. Henry Cloud
And it's a book. Come on. Character. And the the word integrity means whole, like an integer is a whole number integer integrity integral it. And the scriptures use the word a lie that sometimes translated in different ways, but it means complete. It means ripe, means mature. And so that. But good said in leadership how not lie, cheat or lying, cheating and stealing.
00:05:33:20 - 00:06:01:01
Dr. Henry Cloud
You know those are kind of permission to play values if you don't have those, we're not and shouldn't even be talking. But past that, what do leaders need to possess in order to do well so that one and then, I would put necessary endings up there with the that's a really difficult, complex dynamic and an issue for leaders.
00:06:01:03 - 00:06:06:23
Dr. Henry Cloud
And then, trust the book we're talking about today. So in the leadership space, I'd think I'd pick those.
00:06:07:01 - 00:06:23:20
Michael Martin
Yeah. No, those are all so good. And, like you said, kind of come from the the war room and deal with a lot of really practical issues that leaders are facing. So, yeah, turning to the issue of trust and yes, integrity also being something that we talk a lot about.
00:06:23:21 - 00:06:27:05
Dr. Henry Cloud
Helping organizations are kind of into that topic.
00:06:27:07 - 00:06:41:05
Michael Martin
We're into that space. So let's dive in. Yeah. How do you see maybe talk a little bit more about that connection between integrity and trust. What's the connection that you see there?
00:06:41:07 - 00:07:03:21
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, we you know, when I wrote trust the, the, the reason I wrote that was, you know, I get called an organization's kind of. There's one of three scenarios. One is they're they're good, and they want to get better. You know, the second one is there's some sort of known dynamic in the team or the culture or the performance or something.
00:07:03:23 - 00:07:51:20
Dr. Henry Cloud
And then the third was when it's all about to blow up. And I've never gone into any situation. No matter what the stated problem is, where when you lift up the hood, it's not very long before you get somewhere into a breakdown of trust. Either somebody has trusted somebody that they shouldn't have trusted, maybe in that, in that context, or for that position, they trusted them because they've done well in other contexts or other positions, but they didn't work through the whole algorithm of what drives trust or, I mean, as simple as problems in scale, you know, you'll never scale any business or any ministry without trust.
00:07:51:22 - 00:08:15:19
Dr. Henry Cloud
You just can't, because you have got to be able to empower and let go in order for people to go open up another region or open up another department or, you know, whatever it is and, and and knowing who to trust and who to withhold it from and how to fix it when it gets broken is a big, big issue.
00:08:15:21 - 00:08:41:08
Dr. Henry Cloud
And so what I tried to do was, you know, in the context of that, go to all of the leadership literature and neuroscience and psychology and human functioning about what actually makes trust work, what drives it and what breaks it. And, and kind of did a factor analysis of all of that. It really comes down to five buckets.
00:08:41:10 - 00:09:01:12
Dr. Henry Cloud
And so that's what the book is about. So leaders can and investors and donors have a little bit of a G.P.S. to check the boxes to know, am I going to write this check or am I going to hire this person, or am I going to promote this person, or do I need to have the necessary ending in some cases, yeah.
00:09:01:13 - 00:09:21:20
Michael Martin
No, exactly. And maybe on that piece too, about the neuroscience behind it. Thank you. You even talk a lot about how we're naturally wired to trust. And without it, you know, key things in our lives are sort of shrink away. Right. So can you talk more about that, of how we really sort of all wired to trust, right.
00:09:21:22 - 00:09:57:12
Dr. Henry Cloud
Yeah. It's interesting. It's interesting what God did with this. He literally wired us. And when I say literally, I mean the hard wiring of the brain, all of the systems all the way down your spinal column, into your gut, into your heart, into the psyche. There, there are all these sort of like data gathering components that are, you know, it's like, right, right now, for example, you're breathing right?
00:09:57:14 - 00:10:28:20
Dr. Henry Cloud
You wouldn't have been thinking about that if I hadn't brought it up. Why? Because the system is run it's trust paradigm and is decided. The most important question that an organism asks 24 over seven and that is am I safe now? Your system has been smelling the air. It's been feeling the air. There's temperature. There's, you know, oxygen levels, all of this stuff, and there's the absence of bad stuff.
00:10:28:22 - 00:10:56:23
Dr. Henry Cloud
And it says, go ahead and breathe and you can forget about it. And that's when we trust somebody. I like the word carelessness. We can give somebody our money or we can give somebody, you know, a job or resources and forget about it and go focus on what we need to focus on because we trust him. Well, if you started to smell a toxic fume, it would come to your awareness and your prefrontal cortex, and you would hit pause.
00:10:56:23 - 00:11:42:21
Dr. Henry Cloud
You just what is that? And you're not automatically going forward with that air anymore. You're hitting the pause button. And so God is wired us that way. And it begins, interestingly enough. And it has to it begins. The infant has all of us, but the infant has what we call mirror neurons and a bunch of other systems that when they're crying, when they're in distress and they're looking at the outside world for help and for life, and that mother responds in a certain way, mirroring what they need and mirroring to them that they're safe.
00:11:42:23 - 00:12:09:23
Dr. Henry Cloud
Then the system begins to open its wallet. In your parlance, you know, it's like the baby starts investing, right? I need you, and I'm going to invest with you so I can get what I need. And it's not about words, primarily. You know, we don't even have language or words until we're in the second year before that. It's about attunement.
00:12:10:01 - 00:12:37:03
Dr. Henry Cloud
Is this person is this organization? Is this boss? Is this employee is a spouse? Are they attuned to me and really understand what I need? Because if we don't understand what somebody needs, then they shouldn't trust us because we can do the wrong thing. That even hurts him. And so that he's wired us to do that. Now, why is that important?
00:12:37:05 - 00:13:07:09
Dr. Henry Cloud
Because trust fuels life. God is the only entity that doesn't have to draw life from outside of himself, the rest of us, or created beings. And we have to draw a life from outside of ourselves. From day one. And that requires trust. If you can't trust, you die. If you trust the wrong things, you die. So big deal.
00:13:07:11 - 00:13:08:02
Dr. Henry Cloud
Very great.
00:13:08:02 - 00:13:08:12
Michael Martin
It's a big.
00:13:08:12 - 00:13:23:20
Dr. Henry Cloud
Deal. I love the verse where where David says, God, you taught me to trust you at my mother's breast and just shows the deeply incarnational way that God forms us and develops us.
00:13:23:21 - 00:13:46:10
Michael Martin
Yeah, that really speaks how we're wired for trust. And yeah, I'm curious, you know, with that being the case, like, so if we're all created, on purpose, wired for trust, but yet it seems like we live in a culture today where, the trust gap just continues to grow and there is more distrust than ever. What would you say is causing that?
00:13:46:10 - 00:13:59:12
Michael Martin
And I think, like, specifically for how that impacts churches and ministry organizations as well. Like, if we're wired for trust, why is it that we seem like there's so much broken trust?
00:13:59:13 - 00:14:32:06
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, if you if you go down the paradigm, let's just start there. Part of it is the very first factor. Interests, like I said, is the the ability to understand what somebody else needs, where they're coming from, what matters to them, etc., etc.. And one of the big breakdowns that we have today is nobody's really listening to the other side.
00:14:32:08 - 00:14:55:19
Dr. Henry Cloud
And even in hostage negotiation. So some matters in a leadership event one time and a guy walks up to me that I didn't know and he says, I'm the lead hostage negotiator for the FBI. When the guy got a bomb, strapped him in a bank with 40 hostages, I'm the one they send in. And he said, everything you just described is our entire training program.
00:14:55:21 - 00:15:18:19
Dr. Henry Cloud
We don't walk in and say, hey, dude, you know, this is stupid. We're not going to persuade him. The first thing we do is say, hey, I'm Joey. He sent me here to talk to you. What's your name? And they get the name. Then they say, so how did we get here today? Tell me how we find ourselves here in this situation.
00:15:18:21 - 00:15:44:15
Dr. Henry Cloud
You know, the Bible says to give an answer before you understand is a folly and you're a fool. So one of the reasons, I mean, I don't ever see people hardly heard one of the ones you say you're fighting because they get the clicks right? They're not listening to each other to know, how did you come to that position?
00:15:44:17 - 00:16:13:19
Dr. Henry Cloud
You know what? What's driving there for you? Why is it important to you? And the other problem in that to understand. So my we really need proximity. I mean it it's easy to not trust somebody over a vacuum over the Grand Canyon, you know, of understanding because you know that vacuum breeds suspicion. We fill it with a bunch of other motives and judgments and biases.
00:16:13:21 - 00:16:42:03
Dr. Henry Cloud
So that's part of it. The second factor I talked about the in the, in the book is that we trust somebody, not our not only because they understand us, but they're for us that they want the best for us and they want us to win. You know, that's why we have lawyers because we need contracts, because the other side's not always going to be looking out for your best interests.
00:16:42:03 - 00:17:13:12
Dr. Henry Cloud
And you better get those in writing, but in good relationships. You know, John Gottman, the marriage researcher, said it well, he said, when one party in a relationship does anything without considering the effect that will have on the other party, that's a betrayal. You see this in companies all the time. You know, you got an executive team and and sales goes out and starts, you know, trying to drive their numbers.
00:17:13:12 - 00:17:38:09
Dr. Henry Cloud
Right. And they're telling customers, oh yeah, we can build that feature and that's no problem. We can do this. They haven't talked to R&D who have to build that stuff by that deadline. And so it's disconnected. And so we have to look out for one another is, trying to meet the need that thereafter we may have a different solution, but that's a big part of it.
00:17:38:13 - 00:18:23:16
Dr. Henry Cloud
But I think also and this is back to permission to play that, you know, we just said pretty much every institution, from the church to government to marriages to private parties to, you know, every institution has a lot of good people. And some really bad actors. And so I think some of those, you know, you get some, airplay now or all we see is, you know, here's, here's another card to did this or here's another priest who did this, or here's another CEO that did this.
00:18:23:18 - 00:18:37:15
Dr. Henry Cloud
And I think, you know, we're getting this sort of view about everybody in whatever group we don't like. They're bad. And some of that turned. But it also gets over generalized.
00:18:37:17 - 00:19:03:23
Michael Martin
Yeah. And I'm curious too, if I could interject there because I think you make a good point that it's, sometimes it's, it's a minority of organizations or individuals that, like you said, are kind of bad actors. But I guess for for the rest of folks that are kind of in that ecosystem that are, coming back to your point about integrity, you know, they're they're walking in integrity or they're doing the right things, thinking about who it is that they're serving.
00:19:04:01 - 00:19:28:06
Michael Martin
I guess my question is, do they sort of owe it to people that they're serving, even though maybe they're not the one that was the bad actor. They're trying to do things well by high standards in the interest of building trust. Is that something that they sort of owe it to the people that they're serving to, show that they're trustworthy?
00:19:28:06 - 00:19:33:00
Michael Martin
I guess.
00:19:33:02 - 00:20:06:15
Dr. Henry Cloud
100%. You know, in this way, Jesus said, you'll know them by their fruits. And we we should be. And I say, pretty open. You know, Jesus wasn't transparent about everything. He looked at some people and said, you know, and he knew what was in their heart. So he didn't reveal certain things. He didn't, you know, he there were some things that were kept only for the executive team.
00:20:06:17 - 00:20:36:12
Dr. Henry Cloud
Right. Here's some things parents talk about that they don't reveal to the kids. No, they don't lie. They'll give untruths. But we don't owe everybody everything. But we do owe them what's going to be needed for the way in which we're asking them to trust us, if that makes sense. So, like ECFA - organizations are asking people for money.
00:20:36:14 - 00:21:14:05
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, those organizations owe it to those donors to show them this is how we are going to use. Here's the word, your money. Yeah, you owe it. Oh implies some sort of thing. Now here's the problem you also get into there is is on the other side. Some people feel entitled to knowing things or you got to prove it to me in this and the other.
00:21:14:07 - 00:21:14:15
Michael Martin
That is.
00:21:14:15 - 00:21:54:18
Dr. Henry Cloud
Attention and entitlement, this character illogically. Entitlement is generally driven by character disorders in people that feel entitled to something, have a certain kind of egocentricity and omniscience and omnipotence. That you owe this to me because I exist. When they really don't owe it to them. And the other thing that drives it is envy. And those are destructive that a lot of people that are demanding this from another party.
00:21:54:18 - 00:22:24:21
Dr. Henry Cloud
And I'm just I'm an organization sometimes and I'm in relationships, you know, demanding this, you get asked, why do I have to tell you that? Are we engaged in some sort of relationship here where I, you know, so it gets tricky? Yes. We do owe it, but there are some people that will demand it and not they're not asking that so they can write you a check.
00:22:24:23 - 00:22:55:05
Dr. Henry Cloud
You know, a lot of times they're asking something so they can use it against you for your own purposes. So you have to use discretion and you have to use wisdom. And there's a context to everything. But here's what's really interesting about leadership. This is why trust is so important. How many times you've been in an organization or know of one, or a church or whatever.
00:22:55:07 - 00:23:12:18
Dr. Henry Cloud
Somebody gets fired. And a lot of people love that person and everybody's going to leadership. How could they do this? How could they? You know, there's such a.
00:23:12:20 - 00:23:45:07
Dr. Henry Cloud
Leadership sometimes can't tell why, but there's a good reason. Right. Or if that leadership is deeply trusted, you've got one group that's going to say, well, I'll never trust me. If they would fire somebody like that, I can't trust them, you know, and they go off on this thing. But other people who where there is a lot of trust, they go, gosh, I wonder why Tom was let go.
00:23:45:08 - 00:24:14:18
Dr. Henry Cloud
Makes no sense to me. But I know our leader or I know our leadership and it just happened. There must have been a good reason. See? That's trust. Trust is. It's what God has from us all the time. Even when my ways are higher than your ways. Even when you don't see why this is happening. Jobe. Is the trust bigger than my interpretation of what somebody does?
00:24:14:20 - 00:24:21:01
Dr. Henry Cloud
And again, in other instances, you're right. We owe it. And so it gets complicated.
00:24:21:03 - 00:24:41:23
Michael Martin
Yeah. No. And I appreciate those points you brought out about wisdom discernment. And yeah, we talk we talk a lot about at ECFA about appropriate transparency. And so I think a lot of what you just said kind of fits within that context is, yeah, appropriate transparency. I'm also curious to just kind of coming back to even.
00:24:42:01 - 00:25:16:21
Dr. Henry Cloud
Know, I give you a great example that you probably are aware of, that. And this is you've got to understand kind of the context here. But but one of the things is real big in nonprofit world. And then the donor world is sort of this, this 8020 rule, you know, they shouldn't be spending more than 20% on overhead infrastructure.
00:25:16:23 - 00:25:59:14
Dr. Henry Cloud
So we know it's going to the ministry. Right. Great principle that you're spending things on money that actually goes to feeding the people or whatever you're doing. But you have a lot of leaders that really, let's say they're feeding this many homeless people or whatever. And the vision is this many, okay, that's gonna require investment. Like any business, there is investment into new infrastructure, new this, new that all of a sudden that drives the ratio down.
00:25:59:16 - 00:26:24:08
Dr. Henry Cloud
And people don't trust anymore when they share. So that's why the context of trust is knowing why some you got to know them. You got to understand why it is you're doing this. You know, if you're driving down the road at 80 miles an hour, a cop is going to think you speeder. I'm going to stop you until they roll down the window and your wife's gone into labor.
00:26:24:10 - 00:26:51:06
Dr. Henry Cloud
Oh, well, now I understand. So you can't you can't. You know, Jesus wasn't trusted because he heals an eye on the Sabbath. Well, then he sort of took that to a higher level. And he said something really interesting one time, said, don't judge by mere appearances, but judge by what is right. So that's back to the understanding. Why does somebody do this?
00:26:51:06 - 00:26:59:13
Dr. Henry Cloud
What what matters. And we gotta and that takes proximity and that takes, you know, transparency. So yeah.
00:26:59:13 - 00:27:21:00
Michael Martin
So everything said that that's gold. And we're aligned on that too. I mean, even from the comments that you made about the sort of that overhead ratio and all, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding that's out there, even with donors of being told, okay, it's it's got to be this precise number and things and context is so important.
00:27:21:00 - 00:27:31:15
Michael Martin
And that's why even ECFA, we've been careful not to set specific standards around that area because, yeah, depending on the organization and their seasons. Yeah, that may fluctuate.
00:27:31:17 - 00:28:00:12
Dr. Henry Cloud
And and also the the season I'm glad you mentioned seasons. That's key. You know the Bible says clearly there is there is a season. And for every activity under heaven. Well if you tried it, if you tried to get a farmer's profit margins in June.
00:28:00:14 - 00:28:17:11
Dr. Henry Cloud
They've spent a lot more on seed. So we gotta look at the whole picture. Wait till, you know, wait till November, January when they go to market with what they grew last year. And that's why it requires a context and an understanding.
00:28:17:13 - 00:28:26:10
Michael Martin
Yeah. No, exactly. This is so good doctor. Glad I appreciate all your insights. And I think what I was going to come back to as well is just even. Oh, sorry.
00:28:26:16 - 00:28:29:02
Dr. Henry Cloud
Can I mention one more question? Oh yeah. Please. Yeah.
00:28:29:03 - 00:28:30:04
Michael Martin
Go ahead.
00:28:30:06 - 00:28:57:06
Dr. Henry Cloud
This is something you see all the time. And every time I see this, I mean, my chakras just go. Somebody, let's say somebody said, you know, an executive said, you know, we're going to do this or this or this or this, and with these, these monies or whatever. And then, you know, their boss looks at something or,
00:28:57:07 - 00:29:19:20
Dr. Henry Cloud
You know, the team looks at something or whatever. And they say, you know, you said the child can do this, but I notice you bought this and whatever it was, it happened or somebody didn't show up or somebody said, they're going to be here. And they immediately go, so what are you questioning? My integrity. How many times you ever heard that?
00:29:19:22 - 00:29:21:13
Michael Martin
What kind of flag is that?
00:29:21:15 - 00:29:55:15
Dr. Henry Cloud
Is that thing flag for just blatant narcissism? I I'm above being questioned. If we've given somebody some kind of reality that doesn't make sense, why can't we say, oh yeah, you're right. I can see why they're confused. You here. Come look, open up the books and then we'll understand and know why that made says. But these people that demand trust as they're.
00:29:55:15 - 00:30:31:16
Dr. Henry Cloud
If they're entitled to it and to question them, they're above being questioned. That is a big red flag, a big red flag because they think they're integrity. First of all, shouldn't the answer be oh, please question my integrity. I mean, absolutely. Look, because if I'm doing something wrong, which I could be doing and not even realize it, I need to know, you know, David said, let a righteous man strike me.
00:30:31:16 - 00:30:50:09
Dr. Henry Cloud
I will consider it as a blessing. But people take offense to anybody questioning them as if they're owed it. That I've seen it a million times. Just be careful. Be careful when you see that response.
00:30:50:11 - 00:30:58:15
Michael Martin
Be careful. Yeah. No. And I appreciate you actually bringing up narcissism. Right. Because that's kind of a buzzword these days. And so help.
00:30:58:15 - 00:31:00:18
Dr. Henry Cloud
Us yeah.
00:31:00:20 - 00:31:15:12
Michael Martin
Yeah. Help us distinguish though, right. Between, a leader that there is kind of a true narcissism there versus maybe just a broken trust muscle. How do we discern the difference?
00:31:15:14 - 00:31:18:12
Dr. Henry Cloud
You're more specific about an example.
00:31:18:14 - 00:31:48:19
Michael Martin
Yeah. Just thinking about, again, you know, that buzzword is kind of thrown around so much these days, and it's sort of like. Yeah. And I think a lot of times in, in it. Well, I think it's supposed to be used in extreme case of saying like, oh, well, that is just a narcissistic leader and maybe even sort of like implied, we're supposed to write this person off and all those kinds of things versus just a situation where, maybe it's not quite so severe, like, how do we actually discern and know the difference?
00:31:48:21 - 00:32:11:20
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, not so severe is an important term. It's gotten it's gotten so overuse it doesn't mean anything. It's sort of like borderline personality. And you hear this. The sad thing is you hear this a lot of times, you know, people say, oh, my therapist said my husband's a narcissist, and they never change. And so I'm going to divorce it.
00:32:11:22 - 00:32:51:09
Dr. Henry Cloud
I mean, how many times have you heard people say that? Oh, well, first of all, it's not true that they never change. We've been treating them since the 70s. I mean, people that know what they're doing can help narcissists. A be not all narcissists will change for different reasons, which we can go into. But one of the big reasons is they're not all the same, okay, everybody wants to do a doctor's office with a fever is not the same.
00:32:51:11 - 00:33:20:18
Dr. Henry Cloud
One might have cancer, one might have a cold. And there's broadly speaking, you've got a couple of different kind of categories of narcissists in terms of the personality, organization that's underneath it. One of them is, is the one you really have to watch out for. And that's the one where the narcissism, which means everything centers around me.
00:33:20:18 - 00:34:00:02
Dr. Henry Cloud
I got to be seen as wonderful. I always get what I want. You exist to make me happy. All that kind of stuff. Well, that's driven by basically by extreme arrogance and extreme envy and a lot of destruction, and they will eat the world to get what they want. Okay? Lack of empathy, all the stuff you hear, that person in, in the words of Warren Zevon, do you remember?
00:34:00:04 - 00:34:21:01
Dr. Henry Cloud
Remember, Warren Zevon is a rock star in the 80s. Maybe he had this song. Sing it. It's called This Day. I need said, something like I, you know, he puts himself in these scenarios and he goes, dad, sin. Lawyers, guns and money. Get me out of this.
00:34:21:21 - 00:34:58:09
Dr. Henry Cloud
Lawyers, guns and money. Yes, that's what the Bible says with with evil. The laws for the lawless. The Scripture says, and you have to contain evil. Even in organizations, if somebody is divisive, Paul said, reject them. After a second warning. Yeah, I used to didn't understand their times, their character pathology. If somebody is doing something divisive, they may be sort of just kind of gossiping and don't realize it.
00:34:58:09 - 00:35:23:07
Dr. Henry Cloud
And the boss, you know, don't talk to people about that. Oh, I'm sorry, their wives, according to Proverbs, because I hear you and you correct them and they go, so you warn them once and they don't do anymore. Oh, okay. They're maybe not quite getting it a little immature. And they slip and do it again. Great. Everybody's entitled to a second chance, I guess, in some things.
00:35:23:09 - 00:35:54:13
Dr. Henry Cloud
And you warm again and then they stop doing it because they're listening and they're becoming aware. But after a second warning, this isn't a slip up. This is a strategy of a divide. They are trying to divide and conquer and you got to get them out. Same thing Matthew 18 says after a progression, you are separate from them, okay?
00:35:54:15 - 00:36:20:00
Dr. Henry Cloud
Because you got a cancer in your midst. Now, that kind of narcissism, lawyers, guns and money, sometimes you have to call the police. So I mentioned the guns. I mean, some people are going to hurry. Okay. And money. Yeah. Attorneys aren't free. So that's where the phrase will only talk to you through our attorneys. You know, we're not going to engage with this person.
00:36:20:01 - 00:36:44:18
Dr. Henry Cloud
The other kind of narcissist is not an envy based, but they're shame based. In other words, underneath they're looking to be idealized and want to they're always wanting approval. And they get the attention because underneath that is very vulnerable, same, very scared. And if we can get past the bravado and into that, a lot of good things can happen.
00:36:44:20 - 00:37:17:19
Dr. Henry Cloud
So you got to ask, who am I dealing with here and in this area and things I wrote quite a bit about this. It there's kind of the balance is three categories the wise, the foolish and the evil. Wise people hear rebuke and they correct themselves. Fools don't. But with consequences they can change. But people with destruction in their hearts, you have to contain them because they will hurt you.
00:37:17:21 - 00:37:36:16
Dr. Henry Cloud
So it's a complicated issue. Yeah. And we lump it all into and now becomes, oh, I don't even get me started on this. And everybody's screaming now it's written. So narcissists are not as is it. A lot of it is quiet. It's true love is not here to discern.
00:37:36:18 - 00:38:16:04
Michael Martin
Yeah, well you've given us some good framework, some good tips to watch for. So thank you for that. And, just kind of thinking about the maybe the opposite end, end of the spectrum, you know, coming back to something you said earlier, which is just the connection between sort of safety and trust. And so for leaders that are wanting to create trusted environments, I mean, they certainly play a key role with a lot of ministry leaders who are listening to, this podcast, maybe talk a little bit about that for us of leaders who are wanting to lead in this way, have trusted environments, talk about the importance of safety as
00:38:16:04 - 00:38:20:21
Michael Martin
well. How can we be intentional with that?
00:38:20:23 - 00:38:50:22
Dr. Henry Cloud
Well, humans perform. Best, when they have the right chemicals running through their brains. Okay, well, when we don't feel safe and then to a degree that it overwhelms the system and everybody's heard this, or you're in a fight or flight mode, and that's because the brain is being flooded with all sorts of adrenaline and cortisol, but much stuff like that.
00:38:51:00 - 00:39:17:20
Dr. Henry Cloud
And when that brain gets activated, the smart brain gets deactivated because you don't want it working. God designed this that way. I mean, if somebody throws a punch at you, you've got to be able to react, not sit back and go. I wonder how much this fist weighs. How fast is it you don't be thinking about this, right?
00:39:17:22 - 00:39:43:22
Dr. Henry Cloud
You're acting impulsively if you react well, you know when you're leading, when you're leading a company, you don't want to react and you want them thinking you're paying them for their higher judgment and reasoning and problem solving and executive functions of the brain to allocate resources appropriately and all this kind of stuff. Well, you don't want their brain running on sewage water.
00:39:44:00 - 00:40:34:17
Dr. Henry Cloud
So to have what we call a psychologically safe environment means that you're leading in ways that preserve a person's basic integrity. Look at this way kids grow up healthy in homes where they feel secure. Okay? And that requires a number of factors. But here's the problem. A lot of people that are screaming for psychological safety and security want to do away with the other side of grace, and that's truth and requirements.
00:40:34:19 - 00:41:09:13
Dr. Henry Cloud
The healthiest kids come from homes with high support, high warmth, and high expectations because expectations and performance build agency. And that's a big part of me feeling secure. If I know that if I do a B will happen, I can be secure. I know when I go drive my car, if I can drive down the right side of the road most often, I'm not going to get hit okay?
00:41:09:19 - 00:41:42:02
Dr. Henry Cloud
Which gives me a sense of control. So when leaders provide security and safety, not only is some of it emotional and warmth and support and not toxic fears and scary people and kill manipulation and screaming and anger and all this stuff. It's also requiring work from them. With consequences if they don't. Because then I know how to operate.
00:41:42:04 - 00:42:07:12
Dr. Henry Cloud
And I'm also protected from Joey over here, who gets to hold our whole thing back. And he never performs because I don't feel secure in me. Like in a house for one siblings, a bully, or they're lazy and one of the other ones required to work. They don't feel safe in that house because you know, the bad kids getting away with everything.
00:42:07:13 - 00:42:34:19
Dr. Henry Cloud
And so we basic security, you know, the Bible says it, that the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth were realized through Jesus and grace. His favor were for you. Leaders will provide what you need. Grace isn't just, you know, you got permission to fail and will forgive you. That's not grace. That's that's a manifestation of grace.
00:42:34:21 - 00:42:55:23
Dr. Henry Cloud
But grace means unmerited favor, which means if I'm a leader, I'm going to give favor. I'm going to favor you as my employee. I'm going to give you stuff that you didn't bring to the party. I'm going to give you support. I'm going to give you training, and I will give you experiences. I'm going to be looking out for you.
00:42:56:01 - 00:43:16:06
Dr. Henry Cloud
And just like I tell my kids, when they got to be old enough to understand, we have a family meeting. Okay, this is the chores. Meeting guys. Nobody lives here for free. Everybody's got to sign up for a job. What do you want? Put the jobs up on the board. Okay? The first ones pay the mortgage. Who wants to do that?
00:43:16:12 - 00:43:42:03
Dr. Henry Cloud
I don't see any hands go up. All right, so I say okay, but by the time, by the time it gets down to they got to pick something and then they're going to be held in there. And so part of a, a safe environment is not only emotional attunement support and all of that. It doesn't mean no correction.
00:43:42:03 - 00:44:06:11
Dr. Henry Cloud
It doesn't mean no requirements. It doesn't mean no deadlines. It doesn't mean you have to show up or whatever it is. What it means is that the integrity of you as a human being will be preserved, and that means you'll be understood and connected with will preserve your freedom and autonomy and agency within certain boundaries. It's called the role.
00:44:06:13 - 00:44:27:09
Dr. Henry Cloud
Okay? And we'll protect your role. I'll make sure that nobody steps in. Your yard is called a trespass court of the Bible. And I'll make sure that, you know, 70 miles a year. But I will hold you. I'll give you total freedom in this to pull the levers that you can pull. I'm not going to micromanage you. I'm not going to mess with you.
00:44:27:09 - 00:45:00:10
Dr. Henry Cloud
I'm not going to scream at you. I will if you just like air traffic control is going to tell the pilot, you know, your headings are off, you're going to end up in Atlanta instead of New York. I'll step in and correct you, but there will be there'll be requirements and. Oh, yeah. My I don't even know how to start on this one because I hear it in ministries and ministries in Christian.
00:45:00:12 - 00:45:30:21
Dr. Henry Cloud
Businesses and nonprofits. A lot. You get a leader that comes in and maybe it's new or whatever, and they start holding people accountable for performance, for deadlines, for results. And they that's a new thing. And we start instituting this. It won't be five minutes. So somebody said go wait a minute. This is a ministry. You're trying to run this like a business.
00:45:30:23 - 00:45:36:00
Dr. Henry Cloud
This is a ministry.
00:45:36:02 - 00:46:01:14
Dr. Henry Cloud
Yeah. To which I it was so is God's business the only one that's allowed to suck? I mean, you can't demand results in the New Testament. There's no such thing as a non performance based culture. You got three people. One of them gets five talents, one of them gets two, one of them gets one. They're evaluated on performance, one's promoted, another's promoted.
00:46:01:14 - 00:46:22:22
Dr. Henry Cloud
And the one that's not performing goes away. And we'll give that position to somebody who will. In job 15, if there's no fruit, you get pruned. And in Titus, if you're divisive, you get fired and on and on. And so that's part of security too, that I live in a place that that works according to laws that I can depend on.
00:46:22:22 - 00:46:26:00
Dr. Henry Cloud
That's really important.
00:46:26:02 - 00:46:49:11
Michael Martin
Those are good challenges as well. And as I hear you share that, I know there's some short term pain that's involved when leaders, step up, an organization step up to kind of embrace that. What is the long term impact or the fruit that comes, when we make some of those, tough calls or step up. Right.
00:46:49:12 - 00:47:13:05
Dr. Henry Cloud
One of them, I mean, the most blatant one or tries for leadership because of, first of all, because, you see, a lot of times a leader has been enabling somebody who's divisive or bad behavior or, you know, killing the performance, and they don't have the necessary ending, and they're losing credibility with other people, you know, with the rest of the team.
00:47:13:07 - 00:47:29:03
Dr. Henry Cloud
Another one. And I've seen there's so many times is there's real discord and morale problems in the team and the organization. And.
00:47:29:05 - 00:47:49:17
Dr. Henry Cloud
You start to, you know, go in and do the interviews and then and a lot of times I've gone back to the leader and say, well, you know, you're one firing away from happiness around. Here you go. What do you mean? Well, so-and-so's divisive and either you you get him to stop or you're going to continue this run.
00:47:49:17 - 00:48:23:08
Dr. Henry Cloud
So then you go through things and they're obviously, as I said earlier, probably not going to change. And so they get fired. All right. A month later people are sitting around the executive team. Like each other. Like. So why did I hate you? You're pretty good. God. They had. But they this first, it turned people against each other and created discord.
00:48:23:08 - 00:48:56:20
Dr. Henry Cloud
That's one of the things that God hates because it it disrupts unity. And so yeah, there's short term pain. I'll discipline for the moments who's not to be joyful but sorrowful. But in the end it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness. Hebrews says. None of this is easy, but servant leadership sometimes to serve your people, you have to step up and do some hard things as well.
00:48:56:22 - 00:49:16:14
Dr. Henry Cloud
And nobody likes it. It creates chaos. I mean, yeah, I mean, if we're going to remodel our house, yeah, well, it's going to be a tough six months, right? But after that, just calm down. We'll be okay. And leaders have to take them through that process.
00:49:16:15 - 00:49:28:12
Michael Martin
Yeah. I appreciate how you share that in the context of servant leadership and how we're really serving our organizations when we're doing the hard things to build trust.
00:49:28:14 - 00:50:16:20
Dr. Henry Cloud
Yeah. The term servant leadership, is great, great term. Right. That's what leadership is supposed to be about. But sometimes it gets understood as, the absence of executing power. I will see servanthood is only washing feet, you know, the leaders. Being giving and loving and kind and all of those functions. But it doesn't mean the the seat of leadership.
00:50:16:20 - 00:50:23:06
Dr. Henry Cloud
It's not about the person is about the chair they sit in.
00:50:23:08 - 00:51:02:11
Dr. Henry Cloud
You have a position that has agency that only that position has. And if you are going to serve the organization, serve the stakeholders, serve the mission. Here's what's required from that chair. And if and sometimes that's a very what psychologists call and don't get this word wrong in the popular way. But it's an aggressive function, meaning it takes initiative and movement.
00:51:02:13 - 00:51:35:14
Dr. Henry Cloud
And sometimes you have to do things that are hard. It's not all just cookies and cream. And if you abandon those functions of that chair, and every leader ought to ask what can eat you up your chair, only do, or only your chair can do this video. It and it means if you're not doing it, eating and and and so sometimes the parents get to step up.
00:51:35:15 - 00:51:57:13
Michael Martin
Yeah. Well and that is a stewardship. That's a trust right. That God has entrusted a leader. So I think that that's part of that connection with trust as well. Well, I know as we're coming to the end of our time, you had we had joked about this earlier, but I'm not going to ask you to reduce it to one thing, but, you know.
00:51:57:15 - 00:52:05:02
Dr. Henry Cloud
You did ask me to say some of the, you know, your favorite book or whatever. Can I make a plea, a plea here to your own? Yeah.
00:52:05:02 - 00:52:08:11
Michael Martin
Please go ahead.
00:52:08:12 - 00:52:37:15
Dr. Henry Cloud
So, you know, I write books. I've written a lot of, you know, personal growth books and, also a lot of leadership books. This past year, I stepped out of my zone. And I wrote a very different kind of book. It's called Why I Believe, and I wrote it as a book to give to my non-believing friends.
00:52:37:17 - 00:53:11:05
Dr. Henry Cloud
And I work a lot, you know, in the marketplace, right, to a lot of businesses I work in and all that. People are lawyers. And you're one of those. I mean, in a Christian, I go, yeah, here, read this and it'll explain why. And so what happened was when the book came out, I found out I wasn't the only one that had that problem of this is a hard conversation to have with family members or relatives or employees or whoever to talk about your faith.
00:53:11:07 - 00:53:34:17
Dr. Henry Cloud
And I wrote it as a tool for me. And then I found out a lot of people have, found it helpful to give to whomever they want to give it to. So I'm a little bit on a personal evangelistic mission with that one. So I just wanted to mention and have people take a look at it, if that might be helpful to them.
00:53:34:19 - 00:53:37:04
Michael Martin
Yeah. And the name of that book, One More Time.
00:53:37:06 - 00:54:22:15
Dr. Henry Cloud
Why? I believe, why I believe, and the subtitle is A psychologist starts on suffering miracles, science and faith in that progression. It's basically my story where when I hit bottom, in college, I was really, really suffering, really depressed. God stepped in when I reached out to him, and then in the years since, many miracles that I've seen that show me without a shadow of a doubt, that he's real, but also, when I came to faith, that brought up some intellectual quandaries that we all have and questions.
00:54:22:15 - 00:54:35:11
Dr. Henry Cloud
And so I write about how those were resolved for me through the sciences and, on the evidence and then how faith that's inherent.
00:54:35:13 - 00:54:56:02
Michael Martin
So good. Well, thank you for that. Thank you for, writing that book. Another tool in our toolkit, from you. Thank you for that. And, yeah, just joining us today, helping us better understand, trust how we can build it. All the ministries that are listening, that are wanting to enhance trust. This is very helpful.
00:54:56:03 - 00:55:19:03
Dr. Henry Cloud
Thank you. And I love what you guys do. We were saying before we started recording, I say this to the audience. So we have a family foundation and, you know, when we see that banner on there, a lot of boxes get checked there. We don't have to go investigate ourselves. So thank you for your work.
00:55:19:05 - 00:55:23:20
Michael Martin
We appreciate it. Thank you for allowing us to serve you.
00:55:23:21 - 00:55:37:21
Ryan Gordon
Thanks for joining us for the Behind the Seal podcast. If today's episode challenged you, share it with someone and start a conversation. We'll see you next time.