Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Welcome to Portfolio Perspective: Managing Risk & Seizing Opportunity, a podcast focused on the asset-based lending industry. Join Andrew Pace, Chief Client Experience Officer at Asset Compliant Solutions, as he interviews experts, shares insights, and explores strategies for managing risk, optimizing portfolio performance, and seizing opportunities in an ever-evolving financial landscape. From regulatory changes to technological advances, each episode provides actionable takeaways and deep dives into industry trends. Whether you’re a lender, servicer, or recovery expert, this podcast offers valuable perspectives to enhance your approach and improve outcomes.
Lenners are calling upon these non professional agencies or these these tow companies
without any training, based on the lowest fees and not on the quality of service, the
certification, safety, none of that.
They're trying to save money.
And they don't understand that saving a thousand dollars on a repo could be paying a five
million dollar settlement a couple of years down the road.
I've seen it happen.
Today's guest brings a perspective you don't often hear on the podcast.
In fact, it's a perspective most lenders only encounter when something has gone wrong.
Our goal is to better understand that side of the industry and the lessons lenders can
take away from those experiences.
Mark's not one to pull punches, but I think you'll find his no-nonsense, field-proven
insights to be worth your while.
If they raise any concerns, please let me know.
Thanks as always for viewing and listening and enjoy the show.
Welcome back to ACS Portfolio Perspective.
I'm your host, Andrew Pace, Chief Client Experience Officer at ACS.
Today I'm joined by my longtime friend and colleague, Mark Lasick, one of the most
respected authorities in the recovery and repossession industry.
Mark performed his first repossession in 1978 and spent nearly five decades in the field.
He built a leading recovery operation, served as president of a state association, and
founded Professional Repossessor Magazine.
He authored the Commercial Recovery Asian Certification Program, writes a long running
column in American Tomen magazine, and leads seminars across the country.
Today he's widely regarded as one of the top expert witnesses on wrongful repossession
cases.
Mark is known for one guiding principle.
He is not on anyone's side.
He's on the side of the facts.
Mark, welcome to the show.
Andy, thanks for inviting me to your podcast.
You and I go way back.
Over the years, my company has worked for your company w f conducting successful
repossessions for years.
I think the last time you and I sat and talked was over at the uh ELFA conference.
I don't know, in Chicago or somewhere.
So thank It was.
It was, yes.
And and again, thank you.
Thank you.
welcome to the show.
Mark, you've seen this industry from just about every angle possible, starting in the
field and eventually becoming one of its leading voices.
If you don't mind, let's go back to the beginning.
Uh career journey, industry foundations.
You performed your first repo back in seventy eight.
What did the industry look like at that time compared to what we see today?
You know, eight nineteen seventy eight to some people was a long time ago.
To me it feels like it was just yesterday.
A and it's a good question.
What was the industry like?
Well, we didn't use tow trucks most of the time.
We used uh we either picked an ignition or y yanked it out with a slide hammer.
We used a slim gym.
We had ignition crushing tools.
Uh sometimes we even hot wired cars and uh we drove away.
Uh it's a lot different nowadays, that's a fact.
What do you what are some of the differences you see today?
Well, uh the self loader will lift, certainly.
I mean, they were created so the uh the tow truck driver didn't have to get out of the car
or his truck.
He just backed into it, lowered his boom, picked it up, went down the road, attached his
safety chains.
Um of course LPR is a big thing in the industry.
And again, forwarders.
Forwarders are uh that middleman who uh the lenders have figured out where they save a lot
of money by hiring firms such as yours.
And then you get to choose uh your network of recovery agents.
That takes up about eighty percent of the cases.
And uh and it I I think most in most ways it's a good thing.
And we could certainly we'll certainly dive into that a little later.
Um, but yeah, and for those that don't know, LPR is license plate recognition software,
which um a lot of local repossessors use that um, you know, they they install, you know,
very, you know, fuel efficient cars with cameras and they
drive around parking lots and and scan scan license plates.
these are primarily for the auto industry, right, Mark?
For the auto industry, law enforcement, parking lots, uh license plate recognition is uh
used throughout many industries.
And in a lot of situations it really helps out.
It takes a lot of bad people off the street and it helps locate a lot of lenders'
vehicles.
How did your experience evolve from working auto recoveries into trucks and equipment?
You know, I worked for a guy in Cleveland, Ohio called Paul Simpson.
He was the nicest guy you'd ever meet.
You would never think that he used that one time he was a professional boxer.
But he was soft and he taught me he taught me how to speak to consumers and to treat them
with respect.
So I also worked as a heavy duty wrecker operator.
And so when I wasn't repossessing cars, I was driving heavy duty wrecker in the uh
northeast Ohio area and Paul Simpson, Great Lakes Recovery, I think.
uh company was called, not affiliated with the one that works now.
But he he'd call me out whenever he had trucks and equipment and uh repossessing trucks
and equipment back then utilizing a heavy duty wrecker.
I got to know trucks and equipment really well.
And I was a young guy.
I must have been, I don't know, 20 years old.
So, you know, from there on in, I at that time I got to drive some of the old uh old
Peterbilts with
quadruplex transmissions and max V models with duplex transmissions and and buses and
trucks and and excavators and all of those things.
And for some reason I it just I just took a knacking to it, but you know.
Yeah.
So you you also launched Professional Repossessor magazine.
What inspired you to bring more transparency and visibility into the industry?
I need to make it clear that every success that I have had
as a result of teamwork with my wife Debbie.
She's gone through this entire process and I couldn't have done anything without her.
So to answer more your question more specifically, we were in the uh Florida Recovery
Association and I hadn't yet been president, but Debbie was a Debbie created the uh
newsletter.
And I wanted to pay for the newsletter, we had reached out to a couple of providers of
whatever there was for the industry.
We realized that everyone was calling up an advertising in the newsletter, so I had some
crazy idea.
I thought, well, maybe I could create a a monthly national magazine.
And of course everyone told me I couldn't do it and that's the last thing you want to say
to me.
So I went to the Florida Magazine Association with a couple of friends of mine.
We took twenty two twenty-two seminars in three days, we came back, we put together a
magazine and it was a complete success.
Uh and uh I think I think it changed the industry for the good.
That's awesome.
And you've been deeply involved in setting professional standards, including authoring the
commercial recovery agent certification program.
Why was that so important to you?
Well, you know, your company has been in business for over twenty-five years, and so is
mine.
And at the beginning, I was one of the first uh commercial repossession forwarders also,
because as my office grew.
Companies like the Associates and Oryx Credit Alliance and Conseco and those ones that
aren't around anymore.
But they they'd expect me to service the nation, so I would be forwarding out all of this
work, but nobody knew how to handle it.
So I had to I had to basically babysit them and explain to them on the phone how do you
what's the difference between a Volvo and a Peterbill.
I mean, I was getting calls in the middle of the night, you know, the what do I do now
calls.
I thought, let me put something together and send it out to them so they would know what
to do, basically.
So
And at the same time, Joe Taylor was writing the uh the uh the car certification program
for the automobile repossessors and him and I, we were old friends.
he just recently passed away.
bless Joe.
And he said, Man, you should just write uh a certification program for commercial
equipment and we'll just get it out to the industry uh nationwide.
And and so I did.
I spent a couple of years writing it.
I just pulled all the information from my experience and some research.
We put it out there and it's available now on uh on the recovery industry services company
platform and and people are still buying it today.
I I update it every year or every two years just, you know, for whatever's popular.
And I think it's important.
So anyway, I basically started up just for for my neck network and it it took hold pretty
good.
How many current how many current events are certified through that program?
You know, I think there's about seven hundred right now.
In fact, I was thinking of putting together a website.
Uh that's another uh conversation for another day.
That's a great number, seven hundred.
And at what point did you start getting called into wrongful repossession cases as an
expert witness and what led to that transition?
You know, Joe Taylor, who I had mentioned, it I think it was like 2012 or something, he
had gotten a call from Ford Motor Credit on a case on a on a
on a case where uh the tow truck driver was killed.
Run over.
and uh Ford Motocratic called Joe and Joe says, you know, I'm too busy.
He gave them my information and uh we had a great conversation.
uh so f Ford retained me to look at all the documents and uh and and write a report, write
my opinion on everything and uh and they they looked very closely at everything I said and
I think because of my report uh they were able to
I'll reach a successful settlement on their half.
And from there it just started to grow.
My phone started to ring.
And I started to take it very seriously.
So Mark, looking back over your career, what what are you most proud of?
Very proud of the magazine.
Really am, because right off the bat we talked about double designing, we talked about
wrongful repossession.
We talked about standards and ever we talked about dangers in the industry.
Uh
On that aspect of it, what we what we discussed, I mean, it it really hit important things
going on with the repossession industry.
People started to respect the industry.
Plus, it had a place, it had a conduit for the uh suppliers of products and services to
put their wares out there.
All of a sudden there started software programs, more insurance company.
Dave Craze Dave Craze created the uh the dynamic wheel lift, specifically for
repossessors.
because he was my first advertiser.
I remember the meeting.
Dave Dave I promised him the inside belt cover on his new wheel lift, and he promised to
give me twenty five hundred dollars a month up front for twelve months.
So that got us going and and uh soon companies like Jordan and and all the other tow
companies started to produce the wheel lift, insurance companies had a place
Software, uh everything.
I th I I'm really proud of Professional Repossession Magazine.
I think that was that was the big hit so far.
So you spent a lot of time educating both lenders and agents on where the legal lines
actually are, and that's kind of where things get a little complicated.
Let's start with the basics.
How do you explain the difference between judicial repossession and self-help
repossession?
The non-judicial repossession, the self-help repossession.
is where the the lender has a right to repossess his his collateral as per his security
agreement or whatever contract it is, as long as he doesn't breach the peace.
Um the judicial side is the uh when the lender goes to the court and get a judge to sign
off on it, the judge orders that the collateral is uh is returned.
Um that's called a replubbing action.
Generally around fifteen hundred dollars to two thousand dollars.
What they do is uh once they sign the repleven, they send it off to a constable or a
sheriff's department, and a sheriff will go out there, knock on a door, look around if
this car if the car is not there.
They'll take the paperwork back to his office, send it off, and there it is.
It's law enforcement being uh available during a repossession.
That's basically what a replevant action is on a self help.
Law enforcement, color of law, uh is not allowed to be anywhere around.
This is America.
There's there's no debtor's prison here.
So when we talk about self help, everything really comes down to avoiding a breach of
peace.
What does that actually mean in real world terms?
You know I'm not an attorney.
I always say that whenever I'm asked that question.
I had a judge slap me.
I had a judge slap me once, basically.
Um courts have ruled across the country.
That an objection to a repossession, verbal or nonverbal.
So if the debtor or the consumer comes out, or anyone for that matter, don't take my car,
the repossessor has a duty to retreat immediately.
Stop whatever he's doing and leave.
And there's where we run into most of the problems.
Right.
So you've you've said that any objection, even nonverbal, requires repossession to stop.
Why is that so critical, the the nonverbal?
Courts have ruled that the nonverbal objection, and that's where there's a big argument.
But I'll tell you, I'll answer your question.
Why is it critical?
Because I've worked I've worked a dozen cases where the repossessor saw the guy running
alongside of the car, the consumer, whether he grabbed under the door or he just kept on
going and the consumer ended up getting run over and killed.
That's a nonverbal objection.
It's my opinion.
It's also the opinion of courts across the country.
Uh and and that's argumented back and forth with plaintiff and uh defense counsels.
but basically don't take my car, jump it up and down, waving your arms and everything.
That's that's an objection to the repossession.
And it doesn't have to be the consumer, it could be his brother or it can be a neighbor.
If there's an objection, you gotta be treat.
Don't take the truck, don't take the car.
Thank you.
So what typically happens when that rule's not understood or ignored?
in the field then.
I mean you mentioned obviously there's there's the one instance where where somebody was
run over.
Um what are some other instances when when that's ignored?
You know I have to say the word contingency.
I know maybe maybe it's on the schedule to talk about later, but contingency repossessions
mean you're not paid unless unless the repossessor repossessor brings the car into the
yard.
Right?
Facts show
Sources explain that a repossessor will take more chances, he'll take more risks, if he
knows he's not going to get paid unless he gets the vehicle.
And that's what happens.
So even a trained repossessor will continue with the repossession after a verbal objection
or a nonverbal objection.
and and all that crap happens from there.
And I'll give you another example.
Um
reach a piece is also a locked door, a closed, a closed garage, a locked fence.
I've done five cases uh in Wisconsin and the Supreme Court just changed a rule where it
was about uh attached parking garage to apartments, right?
But the tow truck would sit along the side, wait for someone to go in, the door will open,
he'll follow them he'll hook up to the car and leave, right?
Um
Those cases went back and forth with attorneys for the last few years until um the Supreme
Court in Wisconsin finally decided that uh Doma they gave a definition of the domicile,
which means it's not only where he cooks and where he sleeps.
And uh but breach of the peace is if you go somewhere where you're not allowed to go
without permission, you go through a gate or locked door, as I just said, uh that's a
breach of the peace.
And I agree with that.
Yeah, it milk makes makes a lot of sense.
Um unless if you were given permission, you shouldn't be in there.
So a lot of repossessors I'm I'm sorry, go ahead.
No, I'll reposs a lot of repossessors get this form.
It's a repossession assignment, w no matter who it's from, and they think it's
authorization to repossess something, and it's not.
All it is is a description of the property, the collateral, it's the address, it's a Venn
number, and that's what it is.
It's not an authorization to pick it up, but the description of where it is, right?
The basic rule still applies like every certification program, whether it's whether it's
the car certification program, whether it's my certification program, the Eagle Twenty
group, they all explain to you in writing that you've got an obligation to retreat uh as
soon as there's an objection, which is a breach of peace.
So where do you see the biggest disconnect between what the law requires and what's
actually happening on the ground?
You talked about contingency repossession.
What what else could be causing some of that disconnect?
You know, ten million repossessions in twenty tw or t ten million repossession assignments
in twenty twenty five.
There's not enough repossessors to cover that.
So they're lenders are resorting to the
To the tow companies to perform repossessions.
They're not trained.
They don't understand the fee structure.
And on the other side, lenders, lenders are calling upon these uh non-professional
agencies or these tow companies without any training, based on the lowest fees and not on
the quality of service, the certification, safety, none of that.
They they're trying to save money and they don't understand that.
Saving a thousand dollars on a repo.
could be paying a five million dollar settlement a couple of years down the road.
I've seen it happen.
So you got ten million repos a year.
And w how many do you think uh cases are, you know, litigated um off of those ten million?
Do you perhaps answer tough question to answer, you figure ten million assignments, the
national average
is twenty nine percent recovery rate, right?
So twenty-nine percent of those are picked up.
What happened during those other ones could be could be uh could be uh an objection and a
nice drop where they just left.
Some of those are some of those are um breach of peace, wrongful repossession lawsuits.
Um Andrew, I've got I've got fifty cases on my desk right now.
That I'm waiting to review documents.
I worked 50 in the past, I don't know, 10 years, and my phone's ringing off the hook.
Um, and I have to blame and and your your audience is lenders, so they need to open up
their eyes.
I have to blame a lot of it on the lenders because what they're doing is they're they're
picking and choosing off of uh the lowest fees, and they have to understand that there's
consequences to that.
There's consequences.
Everything, you know.
Your company, every time I s every time you assign a repossession to my company, there was
always there was always credentials involved.
You wanted to know who was certified.
You wanted to know everything about my company, my insurance.
Everything had to be uh on the up and up.
Uh all my compliance had to be in order, but I can tell you, and I'm not gonna start
talking bad about competitors in your side of it.
But the others don't, really.
You guys
I was proud to be able to be on your vendor list.
We were happy to have you as a as a partner.
Um, you know, as a company we you know, we we we do all the right things.
You you know, policies and procedures only work if you follow right?
That's right.
Uh that that's one hundred percent correct.
Um so when those lines get crossed, that's when things escalate.
So from your experience, what what are the most common mistakes that lead
lead to l wrongful repossession claims.
Well, I think the the most common mistake is the the failure to retreat, uh when there's
an objection.
Um but you have state laws like Florida, California, Illinois, that that the language of
the law is so broad that a lot of guys don't know what to do.
So so here comes that question.
Do you follow professional standards?
Or do you follow written law in your state?
And I gotta tell you what, in the state of Florida, for example, chapter four ninety three
regulates the repossession industry and it says that a repossession is complete when the
agent is preparing to move the vehicle.
Right?
How broad is that when he's preparing?
There's still you can still breach the peace if he comes out in the driveway, but they're
saying that if the vehicle is picked up on the tow truck, that it's that it's the agent
has custody and control.
That's he may think he does, but there can still be a breach of the peace, and that
happens a lot.
Um California is similar, Illinois is similar.
And I'll tell you, Florida never used to be that way until
one particular automobile uh forwarding company came down, spent their money to change the
language.
I mean, I'll tell you, we you know, we've had it we've had we've had situations where
we've had equipment loaded, strapped down a hundred, a couple hundred yards down the road.
Um, and then the, you know, the agent got out to, you know, just securely s tie the
machine down.
Um, make sure it was securely tied down.
And cops showed up and
Told the agent he had to remove the machine because the cops still felt that our agent was
still on the customer's property, even though they were on a public street.
Um, they and they told the agent he had to drop the machine, otherwise they were gonna
they were gonna cuff him and put him in the back of the car and take him to jail.
So the agent wasn't going to you know.
You don't want to see that consumer get injured.
Your client doesn't want to see that consumer get injured.
And by the way, when he's chasing that flatbed down the street and he trips and falls
because he has his slippers on, right?
He didn't say to himself, I'm gonna chase that truck.
That was an emotional reaction.
He looked, somebody was taking his stuff.
It was something clicked in his brain.
I'm chasing it, I'm gonna go get it.
He didn't had no idea what he was doing.
That's what happens.
That's rage, that's embarrassment, all that stuff comes together.
So i i i i that's the biggest point it is, you know.
And one way to one way to fix that is and some lenders are doing this, by the way, on the
mobile side.
They're paying, they're paying the agent.
even if he has to drop during an objection.
They're saying, Okay, write it down, give me a report, tell me what happened, and if
that's what happened and your agent dropped, it will still pay you the repo fee.
I was at a conference and I was at the Cleveland's association conference and they had
three lenders and they all stood up on the podium and said, That's their new policy.
And I think I think uh all of the lenders, even the commercial lenders, they should follow
suit where where
You're not f you're not faced with having to do all this work and not get paid.
And so is the repossessor on the street.
You know?
And in the long run, it's about what's right.
It's not about the b the bottom line.
We're all consumers.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And I and we've had we've again it's a few times that that situation's happened.
You do the right thing, you take care of the agent.
They didn't break the law, they just were told by the cop to drop something.
Maybe the cop
overstepped his his boundaries there perhaps but our agent didn't want to stick around to
find out if he did or didn't.
Um so we said, you know, just listen to the police, leave it, uh, we'll take care of you.
We know our client will support us and um, you know, we'll just come back another day with
with uh with a judicial repossession.
Um you know that reminds me also of another reason why these they end up in court because
law enforcement isn't always isn't always educated on what's right.
Sometimes
Police officer will say, I'm sorry, uh, but uh he he's got a repo order.
He needs to take your car or he needs to take your truck.
He's got an order from the bank, sir, if you don't get out of here, I'm gonna arrest you.
And I've had cases where the police officer arrested the guy only because he objected.
And that ends up in the courtroom.
Right.
So where let me ask you this, where do lenders tend to get it wrong when selecting and
managing their vendors?
Or uh, you know,
foreigners.
Well, on those direct relationships when when the client deals directly with the repo
agency, because they'll go on some some silly uh website that says here's the list of repo
company.
If there's a list of repo companies out there and they've got a website that says we'll do
your repos, if they just call them and send an assignment,
They're asking for trouble.
They need to properly vet every repossession agency and as you I'm sure you do.
they they can't just send it out there and and and hope for the best.
Uh and there's a lot of that going on.
There's a lot of that going on.
Uh some instances where you're way out there in the middle of Kansas or in the middle of
Nebraska where there's no one and it's out in the field and it's farm equipment, right?
They'll just call up a tow company and pick the
closest to company to the place, without asking them questions.
They'll just say, okay, go ahead, uh, send the truck out there and go get it and do the
best you can.
When they should damn well be calling your company, right?
Because you guys, you guys got your network out of those remote locations who you've
already vetted.
And and and it comes down to those guys save the money.
And the crazy part about it is they've got more money than anybody.
They can afford to do it right.
No.
I'm get some hay mail because of that, but I don't care.
Well, not only that, but you have um you know, you have um, you know, dealers are are
getting involved.
Um, you have dealers getting involved in picking up repos.
even in licensed repossession states like like Florida.
Uh if you have a you know, do you do you hear a lot where, you know, dealers get involved
with repossessing equip equipment?
they're voluntaries, so they don't think they need to use a licensed repositor in states
like Florida, Illinois, California, Nevada, Colorado, just to name a few, because because
it's a voluntary and the customer's surrendering it.
Um, or they'll use a transport company perhaps to coordinate, you know, the transport.
Um can you talk a little bit about that and and why why there's there's there's an immense
amount of risks there by by kind of circumventing uh or not using licensed agents in those
situations?
You know
In early twenty twenty four, I was sitting at my desk, I got a phone call.
Uh, I'd like to speak to Mr.
Mark Lacer, please.
I said, This is he the other end of the line, the guy says, This is so and so from the
Department of Justice.
And right away I thought, Okay, what did I do?
Right?
But it wasn't what I did.
He went on to say that they w the Department of J Justice wanted to retain me for just
what you said.
It was a buy here, pay here down in Miami.
Um, they decided to go out and get a car.
Um, they sent one of their employees out with no training.
He pulled up behind the guy in the middle of the street, opened the door, pointed a gun at
him, and said, Get out of the car, we're taking this car back.
Right.
And and so we went back and forth.
I ended up going down there and uh I testified in front of the jury.
And
That particular guy got about five years in prison for doing what he did.
And all that that uh buyer payer had to do was either train his employee or or outsource
that to a licensed agency.
Hell, there's nine hundred licensed repossession agencies in Florida.
We started, we started regulating repossessions years and years ago.
I was called by the Secretary of State and the Division of Licensing, a few of others, few
others of us, and we went up there, we helped them write the laws, right?
But you still have those companies doing exactly what you said.
The biggest culprit, and I don't care about saying them out loud, is well maybe I
shouldn't.
I won't say it out loud.
Yeah, let's say But the big the biggest culprit is those title loan companies, right?
Across the country.
The number one, the number one company going out there uh on a re wrongful repo lawsuits
is a particular title loan company who doesn't care.
They think that because they've got a file in the office with a title in there.
That that title is still good.
But they don't know if that car didn't break down one day.
If it went to a mechanic shop or a storage yard, that storage yard applied uh for a lane,
sent out a letter, and it's not just automobiles, it's equipment, all types of trucks and
equipment.
And and they sent out then they acquired title legally, right?
Well, that's a buyer payer has a paper title in a drawer, they send it out to a a
Some repo thug, and I repo I call repo thugs companies that are unlicensed.
And they won't verify the link.
Some say it's just hard.
So you go on to one of the web providers and they'll tell you if it's they won't, they
won't do that.
And they'll go out and they'll repossess it and boom.
Then you've got a guy who legally bought a car and somebody just took it and called it a
repo.
Right?
Somebody's paying big bucks for that.
Right.
And and I'll tell you something else.
When the repossessor comes to take it and he's out there objecting and he he has the
title, I've seen it.
He'll say, Hey, I've got the title to this car inside.
Uh there's no lien on it.
Let me go out and get it.
And the guy, boom, takes off.
I had a case in Texas.
I had a case that I worked in Texas where the consumer was killed.
I wrote about the story.
the tow truck while the guy's wife and daughter watched, the tow truck driver took off.
The consumer fell, he ran over his head and killed him.
He had he had a copy of the title in his hand.
That's terrible, man.
Yeah, I mean if I recall, there was a situation in Texas a few years back.
You you might you might recall this where you mentioned it earlier uh on the episode about
dual assignments, how um a lender had had a repossession out with with multiple companies.
Neither company knew it was dual assigned.
Which is obviously against the law.
It's heavily frowned upon for for many reasons.
Some people would argue, well, we increase our chances of getting something back because
we we put more people on it, which which is not not a good mindset to have.
But first agency shows up, borrower comes out, client you know, says, Hey, you you know,
you're not taking this.
Um so the first agent does the right thing.
He leaves, he doesn't breach the peace.
not knowing the first agent was there, the second agent rolls up a couple hours later,
they start hooking up into the car, the borrower comes out, thinks somebody's stealing it,
and, you know, he shoots and and fires at the at the repossessor.
that would have never happened if if they didn't dual sign that placement.
And and and I made a cover story out of double assigning i in like my s second or third uh
edition of the magazine and they still have that problem.
Um
And you know, that happens less often, but it still happens.
And I I'll give you an example.
Maybe your client and maybe an automobile client, but they'll go ahead and they'll have a
direct relationship with a repossession company and they'll send the assignment out and
it's not picked up.
And three or four months go by and it's not picked up.
And they'll s and and they'll say, you know what, we're gonna start using a forwarding
company and they send that very same assignment without canceling it uh to a forwarder.
And he he he vets an agency, he makes sure he hires a professional, he sends someone out,
and just so happens that the other guy's still looking for it and sees it.
And then you have that clash, you know, and just like you said, uh and you know, this
stuff should be this stuff can be eliminated uh through some procedures, certification,
training, safety meetings, which is a big part.
You know, i i this is the repossession business.
I read a story years ago on definitely avoidable.
And you know, there have been situations where, you know, both companies showed up at the
same time and they're disputing or arguing over who's gonna leave with the asset.
I mean, you can't cut it in half and both take it take half, right?
So, you know, you find that now now there's a disagreement between the recovery companies
in front of a customer.
And that's that's not very professional, obviously.
Um so let's get to the um the lowest cost mindset that you talked about earlier.
Uh how does that contribute to to risk in this space?
You t I know you talked a little bit about obviously you're you know, if you have a low
cost mindset, you're obviously most likely not using using peop using agents or or vendors
who are certified have the education.
What are some other um risks that contribute to you going with that lowest cost mindset?
Costs a lot of money to be in the repo business now.
Trucks trucks that used to cost forty thousand dollars or uh two hundred thousand dollars.
Cost the money li it costs money to be certified.
It costs money for your insurance, which is through the roof.
I know guys that are paying four hundred thousand dollars a year uh a premium just to be
insured.
Um but
having those things a maintenance program for your equipment, having those things makes
you more professional.
You do things right.
Years ago I drove a truck for consolidated freightways and every day before we left we
would walk around the truck, make sure the reflectors were clean, kick the tires, check
the oil, make sure everything worked.
And that company had the lowest accident rate in the nation.
It was because we took the time to make sure everything was right.
It was more costly.
Right?
So naturally
You have to pay a professional organization more money.
The other side of that coin is that guy who charges considerably less, he doesn't have a
maintenance program, right?
And it's not always about a wrongful repo thing.
His bearing off the front wheel could lose a tire and go on and and run into somebody.
There's a lot of other issues that could go wrong because you don't have the proper, you
don't pay attention to the proper details of being a businessman.
A lot of people
Don't even know it, but they're slowly going out of business and they're working harder.
you need to be educated.
The a big thing now, Andy, is um safety meetings, scheduled safety meetings.
I'm finding them more and more in these depositions.
they're at uh company company representatives are asked, hey, are you are you offering uh
are you offering uh monthly scheduled or scheduled safety meetings?
And if you are
Are you having your agents or your employees sign in as attendants?
And if he says yes, we have those meetings, here's those, here's those attendance records,
this is what we said, this is what we train in.
That goes a lot, a long way to to defend someone, a defendant, defendant who's who's uh
taken to civil court.
If you're trying hard and you prove that you are, uh, you know, a a judge is gonna decide
or a jury is gonna decide who's at fault more.
Right.
If you have two people that fault more, one's fifty-one percent and one's forty-nine
percent, well, you know where the where the judgment is going to go.
So the the more the more a lender or or a repossessor can prove that they did everything
right, the more chance they have of uh of not being found uh negligent uh in a court of
law.
And I can't allow to use that word n negligent, because it's a legal term.
I was told that by a judge.
It had said, Mr.
Lasek, are you an attorney?
No, Your Honor.
He says, Well, don't use the word negligent.
Yes, Your Honor.
Thank you.
Well, you know, getting back to the low getting back to the uh low lowest cost mindset,
it's you're right.
It's not a just about um wrongful repo situations or breaching the peace, which there you
know, there's a lot of textbook repos that happen, but you're right.
They where else I mean if they're
If they're the low cost mindset or they're the lowest cost vendor, uh, where else are they
cutting cutting corners or where what else is not getting the attention that it deserves?
Like you talked about safety meetings, um, training, certifications, especially in states
that require it.
Um, 'cause if you choose to partner with somebody that's not licensed in in those fourteen
or fifteen states, then you're breaking the law.
so then you have another issue.
But
You gotta get you know, there and that that is happening.
I mean, there are there are a lot of unlicensed repossessions happening in in those
licensed states, you know, um for voluntaries because they just think it's a transport or
um it's a voluntary, they don't they don't need to use licensed agents, things like that.
But it's again, you use a low cost mindset, so they have to cut corners somewhere, right?
So they they don't use a certified repossession agent or a licensed repossession agent to
be on site, you know, while the equipment's being being removed.
Um or you mentioned earlier that perhaps you know the equipment they're using isn't up to
standards because they're not able to properly maintain it, right?
So I'll tell you something else.
It's it's it's their facility.
It's their storage facility.
Right.
I know companies that have that have high fences, cameras, uh they have a separate pa
place to go in there and get their personal property when the debtor comes to redeem.
Uh I've seen other companies that have nothing.
They park they
They park it down the street or they park it in the woods the next day to barn.
And and and I I've seen instances where the debtor will find out where the company keeps a
car or the truck.
He'll go to the middle of the night, he'll take it back.
He'll take it back and then come the next day and say, Where's my truck?
Right.
Right.
Yeah, that's true too.
You're right.
I mean, they don't have the proper facilities, um, you know, to store personals,
keep the vehicle safe until they transport it to the auction, right?
Or a dealer.
Um, you know, because again, they don't have the, you know, the resources to pay somebody
to, you know, you know, do be security in in 247, uh or they don't have the money to to
pay for cameras to constantly monitor the property or the premise.
Or they don't have the proper insurance, right?
They don't have garage keepers.
they don't have wrongful repo insurance, right?
They know.
So you look
If you look and you're properly vetting, you look for these things.
Whereas if you're gonna do a repo, do you have wrongful repo insurance?
Do you have on hook?
Do you have cargo?
Um, do you have errors and omission, right?
So if if you're using somebody that's the lowest cost mindset, they're they're not
necessarily gonna check all those boxes, right?
He's talking to uh one of the leading um insurance providers for the industry.
And one of the things uh that I was told was that
Over fifty percent of the claims uh aren't about wrongful repos.
Fifty percent of the claims are about um the do toe trapper or the repossessor being on
the phone.
They're these they're these uh front-end crashes, these 10 mile an hour, 20 mile an hour
crashes.
Uh because every possessor is on his computer, he's on the phone, he's going down the
street, just like in civilian life, you know, th those things happen.
I mean, insurance prices are through the roof.
I mean, crazy.
So
And then on the other end of that, the low fees like we like we're discussing, a lender
will call up a repo's repo company and they'll and they'll they'll agree on a fee and the
and the repo company will say, Well, that's low.
That's too low.
But the lender will say, But I'm gonna give you volume.
I'm gonna send you five hundred assignments a month, man.
You'll make it up on the volume.
And a lot of guys will say, Okay, we will.
So they've got to repossess a thousand cars a month at a lower fee, but they're getting
but they're
But they're getting getting enough revenue to pay last month's bills.
As long as they're doing that.
Well, that's not a great that's not a great I again, I you know, it's kinda hard to
sustain that model because if um if you're not charging enough, at some point something's
gonna the the you know, the dam's gonna burst.
Something's gonna happen where you didn't maintain a vehicle properly or something
Mistakes happen.
You know this.
You and I both know this, being in this industry as long as we have, mistakes happen,
right?
Um, it's not the mistake, it's how you how you respond to it, right?
But if you don't have the insurance to cover that mistake, right?
let's say you only had 30,000 and on hook and you were towing a $150,000 vehicle, right?
And something happens.
It disconnects from the hook and the the the vehicle's destroyed.
Your insurance is only covering $30,000 of that.
Right?
And who's paying for the difference?
So now you have to, you know, that business owner is now gonna have to pay for that out of
pocket, the difference.
They are doing that.
They are paying out of pocket because the insurance company's not gonna go over and defend
every claim, right?
If if it costs them twenty-five thousand dollars to uh send his attorneys out and and do
all everything involved in a civil matter, right?
If they can send him fifteen grand, they're not even gonna do anything else.
Okay, will you accept fifteen grand?
Okay, so they're paying out all those claims.
So uh a repossession company, a smaller one, they they don't wanna submit it as a claim to
their insurance company.
And you you make a very good point.
They'll just go ahead and pay it out of their own pocket.
Um and there they are again, slowly going out of business, only making enough to pay last
month's bills.
Right, right.
So that happens and that puts something like that could put out of business if if they
don't have the money to and then if they don't pay it, then it's on whoever hired them.
Now they're they're the ones that are gonna have to pay out of pocket.
and and fund that, um, tender it to their insurance or write a check to maintain that
relationship if there was a forder involved.
Um now mind you, if there was neg neglect uh or there was a defect with with the winch or
something, then obviously you can go after the manufacturer for that.
But if it was just, you know, somebody not dotting their I's and crossing their Ts, they
they didn't t chainse up and down three three ways or
you know, they didn't properly chain up the vehicle, then obviously there's there's
neglect on on the on the repossessor at that point.
But um unless they can prove that there was a manufacturer defect on on the actual, you
know, tow truck or or um, you know, vehicle that they were using to haul the equipment
with.
But um, you know, well let's get into agreements because we a lot of a lot of agreements
get signed but they're not followed.
So how does that come back into play during litigation?
I won't say the name, but I'm working on a case right now and I'm looking at the security
agreement between the lender, uh, and it's actually a forwarder, the forwarder and the
repo company.
And it's uh has a long list of you're gonna do this and you're gonna do that, you're gonna
provide us with this, you're gonna send us, you're gonna make sure that you uh that you
drug test your uh random drug test your employees, you're gonna make sure you have safety
meetings.
And the guy will sign the contracting, okay, okay, start sending us work.
They'll never follow up on it.
So I read in deposition testimony from the representative from that company.
So I just asked them, okay, through Discovery, they've asked for all of that
documentation.
Show me where you requested, show me copies of this, show me copies of that.
And the company represent the lender representative is like, uh, I don't have none of
that.
And and and opposing counsel will show, well, look, you said right here.
You're going to you're going to require random drug testing for so many employees for this
company.
Show them to me.
And I can't tell you how many times the lender or the foreigner doesn't follow up what
what the contract says he does.
And now he's gonna say, he's gonna say, Well, I'm not responsible for what he does, but
yes, you are.
Courts have ruled across the country, across the board.
A lender is responsible for the actions.
of their vendor.
That's all there is to it.
So to to more precisely answer your question, your company representative, whether you're
a forwarding company or whether you're a lender,
You should have those you should have those those follow-ups where you do request that
equipment.
Heck, I'm a proponent for having everybody get certified.
Uh as a uh in fact, uh the recovery industry services company, which who uh promotes my
certification program, they have a certification program for lenders.
Uh it's called Cars FC.
That's the financial client side.
And there's a lot of clients who will take that certification program for two reasons.
Number one, to train their employees.
And number two, when that company rep is in deposition, he can say, Yeah.
All of our guys have been trained about repossession laws from the so and so on the
financial uh side of the repossession.
When you can say that, as I said earlier, that lowers your chances of paying out that huge
settlement.
I mean
Certification is great, whether you whether you follow it or not, the and I hate to say
this, but if you can say you're certified, it helps.
You damn well should understand the knowledge and understand the test that you took and
and every part of it that you read.
Uh and if but but if you don't follow those professional standards and guidelines, you're
gonna get in trouble.
Uh and someone's gonna get hurt.
So just let me ask you a follow-up question to the certification.
Is there um
Do they have to do take a a yearly uh you know, fresh refresher um just in case there's
been any changes or updates in some of the some of the legislation or some of the laws?
Oh, absolutely.
They have continuing education every year.
uh and I know I'm part of RISC, but I can't help but sell them because they have what's
called Risk Pro, where when you join as you we when you join with them, then
you you're qualified to come in and take the C E programs as they as they happen.
And it's a great thing all the way around.
I mean, hell, my dad told me years ago, son, he said, knowledge is better than cash.
Especially when you lose it.
Right.
Right.
So that's great that they have um continuing education.
it and it's updated.
Uh I know I know the equipment finance industry has um
you know, a certification program for leasing and finance professionals and they have they
have recertification every single year, kind of a refresher.
That's obviously that the test isn't as comprehensive as the as the first one, but um
because there are a lot of laws that do change year over year.
So they want to make sure that um the leasing and finance professionals are um, you know,
are up to date on on those uh on on those laws as they as they may change.
And that's excellent.
I mean I've been to the uh
uh a National Equipment Finance Association, uh NIFA.
I've been to the ELFA conferences, and they do.
And I all that that's always impressed me about those guys because you know what?
They just don't host a place where everybody gets to have a beer together.
They actually train people.
Uh in fact, um next week I'm gonna be in Texas at the uh San Antonio Tow Expo.
And uh I'm gonna put on a seminar on how to stay alive, how to stay out of jail, how to
stay out of the courtroom, how to stay out of the more
More.
Uh, precisely.
And I'm gonna talk about the things that you and I are talking about now.
You know?
So let's talk about some industry trends and what lenders should do.
Um, it's changing rapidly, new technology, evolving business models.
We're seeing the rise of of um, you know, forwarders handling a large percentage of
assignments.
How has that changed the landscape?
Repossessors are getting paid less.
But obviously in return, the forwarders are doing more, right?
If the forwarder, when he gets this sign, and and a lot of people call them asset
management companies or whatever they're called, but if that forwarder is getting the
information from the lender, verifying the VIN number, and this is a big deal right now.
Uh there's a few software programs offered now where you can you can punch in the
information, and even if it's a state that disallows it, which is like four of them,
right?
It still verifies that VIN.
So if the forwarder is verifying the information that the bank has, finding new addresses,
because the last thing you want to do is send a repossessor who's only getting half the
slice of the pie anyway, the last thing you want to do is send them to five addresses.
So you're earning your money by determining where that debtor is, where he works, and then
you send that new fresh information, because you know the lender doesn't have it.
The lender's got a copy of the of the contract and he says, Yeah, well, he lived over here
on Maple Street when he bought the car, and the lender's gonna send that.
Over the past few years, everybody moved, right?
So sure, you've got a responsibility and you do.
So in a way, that's a good part about having the forwarder.
As long as the forwarder does his job and if he makes it easier and causes the
repossessing company to spend less money, well good.
That repossessing can go out and with more detailed and correct information.
He can repossess more cars and trucks.
So So y y you bring up, you know, that's a great segue into our next question, because
we're we're
you've kind of defined a little bit of of of, you know, a forwarder.
Um some would say companies that are more engaged, they're more strategic partner um with
the lender versus just taking the information they have and just forwarding it out without
validating or verifying, right?
Um Correct.
So how do you know, let's if you wean maybe, you know, get more into the weeds with that
one.
So you you have
You have the forder, you have a strategic partner that's actively managing the account,
handling the skip tracing, directing in the field, and really owning that process from
start to finish.
Um how how does that differ um from just somebody who's just pushing pushing out hundreds
and thousands of of accounts out without doing any of that validating or verifying?
And it's an important point.
For example, right, most of the time, any lender, whether it's commercial or consumer, 30
days, they don't mind when you're 30 days.
They make a lot of money on that 30-day uh $16 fee for being 30 days late.
I once knew a company that paid their entire yearly expense with those 30-day past dukes,
right?
So, but then again, it's gonna come up to 60 days, right?
When that thing when that assignment hits 45 or 60 days.
And they send that to a forwarding agency, a s asset management company, says, look, this,
and not so many words, but look, this this it's possible that this vehicle is going to
come up for repossession.
We need you to manage this account.
So they send it to somebody after 45 days or whatever the number is, right?
All of a sudden now, the forwarding company is working that account.
They may do collection calls, but they're getting information.
They have that information in front of them.
So if if they collect,
They collect that past due and they have that relationship, whatever it is, right?
That's a good thing.
If it goes to ninety days or 120 days, whatever, whatever the client wants, and you
initiate the repossession be un under your contract terms, right?
You have that new information, right?
So when you you're you've already been working this assignment as a late uh as a pass due
account, maybe as a collection account, all of a sudden it turns into a repo account,
right?
You're already on the ball, man, and you're sending this quality information.
I think I I hope that answers your question and about how how how it could how it can
change the course of how it's done, making it safer, more productive for everybody.
Sure.
I think at the end of the day, it's trying to be efficient, right?
Like you mentioned earlier.
Do you want to burn somebody out and send them on a wild goose chase to five or six
different addresses?
Or if you have a good partnership with a a company, an engaged, you know, strategic
partner with the bank.
Who assigns cases out, you know, they're working side by side with you, perhaps, you know,
behind a desk.
But, you know, they're getting information, they're scanning, you know, the internet,
they're scanning, you know, skips tracing tools to try to give give that agent the the
best possible information.
Or perhaps they're, you know, um monitoring telematics and GPS, um, so that if and when a
unit does come into that area, they're providing that information or they they can
They can use predictive analytics to maybe predict when that vehicle is going to be in
their area.
So they can give them a heads up.
You know, hey, a couple hours, this vehicle may be approaching your area.
Just want to put you on the ready.
Um, so it's things like that that I think um can make create things efficient.
And that's how you can maybe manage costs.
Maybe, you know, if the agent's gonna do all the heavy lifting, then then yeah, I think
they have a right to be a little upset if they gotta split it, as you said, split the pie,
right?
But if you have somebody that's working side by side with you and they're they're doing a
lot of the work and obviously the heavy lifting is being done by the local agent, but
there's there's you know it's a it's it's you're you're a team, right?
It's like running a relay um instead of a spring.
If you're if you're a forwarding company in and for example, if it's commercial accounts,
right?
If you're a forwarding company and you handle that like I've discussed, you also have
relationships with all of the truck dealers, right?
And you've got relationships with the service department.
And and you know as well as I do.
You can call a Peterville service department on a new truck and that and that guy in a
service compar he can log on to that engine, he can tell you exactly where it is.
So if you've got that real if you've got that relationship, the repossessor can't do that,
right?
So if so you you know where it's going to be, where it has been, uh what direction it's
going, that's helpful.
And that's that's earning that that's the forwarding company earning their piece of the
pie.
That means
More assignments getting resolved.
I mean, twenty-nine percent recovery.
Look, back in the day when I was really out there on the street, we were at ninety
percent.
And we'd have been higher if it wasn't for the bankruptcies.
But I mean, we were we were doing great back then, but it just doesn't seem like that's
going on right now.
Yeah, that's I was that's interesting that twenty nine percent number that you mentioned
earlier, the recovery rate, is that is that consumer and commercial or just just on the
consumer side?
You know what?
Cox Automotive put out that information uh on their website.
And they've got a lot of analytics analytics on everything they've done.
And and I didn't I didn't see where they differentiated from it.
I'm not sure how it is.
I mean, maybe it's maybe it's 12 million assignments and the two million commercial
assignments, you know, they I mean, you know how those commercial lenders are.
They tell you that the FDCP doesn't apply to them, and in a way it doesn't, you know.
Uh but actually it does because UCC laws does apply.
Yeah, and I'm not an a attorney, but you know, you still have to be safe.
You still have to protect the consumer, whoever the consumer is, even if it's the consumer
is is a business entity.
Uh everybody has rights.
Everybody has a right to file a lawsuit, whether they're right or not.
Yeah.
I you know, to me I think um a best practice is, you know, use the FTCPA as i on
commercial accounts.
Um, use it as as a as a guide.
and you know, I think you you you could avoid a lot of trouble and a lot of headache if if
you use use the FTCPA as a guide.
I think where where the FTCPA would apply is um class action lawsuits.
Um you can uh you know, where that would be more applicable on the cons consumer side
versus, you know, there's no uh
real class like the threat of a class action lawsuit on a on a commercial loan is um not
likely versus uh you know you you you you find one one consumer borrower uh and then they
find a few others next thing you know you have class action well on the commercial side,
you know, um they're only eligible to win what they lost.
They there there's no there's no potential for a class action lawsuit on a commercial
loan, I believe.
Again, I'm not an attorney, it's just based on some of the things that I've heard.
But um
But no, I think it's I think it's best practice just utilize the FDCPA as a as a very good
guideline.
And there are some there are some things that you can use.
You know, don't generate complaints, right?
Treat people with respect.
I mean, you know, comes with, you know, how you how you want to be treated and how pe you
you know, how you treat people and how you wanna be treated, right?
Um so there I think there's a lot of good things to take away from that and you can apply
it on commercial repos, even though the FDC PA doesn't doesn't govern commercial
repossessions, right?
You know.
I I was invited to be on a panel at the Florida Bar Association two weeks ago down in
Orlando and I'm sitting on the panel and I mentioned that the FTCBA doesn't apply because
it's a commercial loan.
And one of the attorneys raised his hand and he asked the question.
He says, What if what if the guy bought it as a corporation but he signed for it
personally?
I said, I don't know.
So I I don't know how that goes.
Uh
But you make a very good point.
You know what?
Use the FDCPA as a guideline.
Don't kill anybody.
Don't use law enforcement.
Just walk away, you know, live the fight another day.
Um there's no piece of equipment or uh automobile that's worth worth getting hurt over.
Um so just walk away and leave.
Um so let's uh you know, let's talk about uh the impact of dash cans, body camera
technology.
And what's that having uh what's that uh impact on on the industry today?
I review a lot of uh law enforcement body cams.
And uh some people will say, Well, what if the uh what if law enforcement doesn't want to
turn them over through discovery?
I says, Well, include them on a lawsuit and then tell them if you turn over the body cams
on your law enforcement officers, we'll take you out the lawsuit, and I guarantee it.
Here come those videos, right?
So so
Law enforcement body cams are very important because whenever the police are called, it's
there.
And I I have to think that every law enforcement agency now has them.
When it comes to cameras in tow trucks, I think there's like nine hundred professional
repo companies that belong to whether it's Eagle Twenty Group, American Recovery
Association, or uh Allied Finance Adjusters.
Um
All right, and even RSIG, who's a group of insured repossessors.
I think uh and you've heard of all of them, but I think totally all the members, it's
gotta be about nine hundred, and they're professionals.
They they have compliance.
If you if you're gonna be a member, you have to follow these guidelines.
This is what you have to do.
And they have conferences every year that that that teach and train and and they have
seminars and they and they tell them how to be re how to be professional.
Right?
So
And right now the biggest thing is cameras, right?
I never I never uh thought it was a good idea for them to wear well, I I I wouldn't say it
wasn't a good idea.
I don't think it was a top priority to wear body cams and and and bulletproof vests and
things like that.
I think you have to deep uh deep dive into the fundamentals of what goes wrong first.
Uh cure what goes wrong so you don't need that.
Uh but cameras right now.
They they can they can defend you?
they can also find you find you guilty, right?
Because if you're asking a deposition, because the camera like there's like a 30 or 45 day
uh wait time before they're overrun with the next video.
Right?
So if you're asked during a deposition, why didn't you why didn't you retain those?
Uh and you don't, that's a separate that's a separate uh f lawsuit filing.
I think it's if you if you thought that there was gonna be a potential lawsuit, I was just
reading this yesterday.
If you think that there was going to be a potential lawsuit, you have a duty to uh retain
the information on that camera.
And I I forget what it's called, uh, but I was reading and I thought, wow, I had no idea.
But if you if you think there's gonna be a lawsuit, if someone was injured, you damn well
better retain that.
So it could help you.
If you're if you train your guys and they do everything right, it's gonna help you all day
long.
But if you send send some guy out there,
Who who you didn't understand the term bridge of the piece or retreat or verbal objection
or nonverbal, if you don't understand that, then it's gonna get you into trouble.
Sure, sure.
I mean it's no different with your insurance company if if um if if you if if you're aware
that there's a potential complaint or you think that um something may have happened that
you you could be sued for, you're supposed to put your insurance company on notice.
right soon after the event took place, not a year later after you get served with a
complaint.
Um so similar thing like you just said with with a dash or a body cam.
If if you have it and you th you think there's a potential that, you know, it could be you
know, you could get a subpoena that you may have to turn over the the the the video, um,
you should probably preserve preserve that video and make sure you have you have copies of
it because again, if if you
Don't have that and it and it could have, you know, uh could have allowed you to um, you
know, not have to pay a claim because it showed that you did all the right things.
Um, if you don't have it saved, then they're gonna assume that you obviously didn't do the
right thing.
So look, that that dash cam that dash cam in that in that tow truck, that repossessor
driving that truck, he wants to keep his job.
Just the fact that that camera is there.
You think that it's gonna make him it's gonna force him to do everything right, to follow
the rules, right?
because that camera is there and he knows that when that ignition turns on, that camera
turns on.
Right.
So yeah, that that that's a role that that camera plays that that it it keeps him in line.
uh so yeah, uh and that could very well be one of the reasons and I'm sort I'm sure it's a
selling point to the camera companies.
So that you know, just a few more questions and I I I'm so grateful for your time, Mark.
This has been a great
Great discussion.
Um, you know, with all these changes, what what should lenders be requiring today from
from their recovery vendors or forwarders or, you know, strategic partners?
Well, that's easy to say.
Andy, your client should expect you to properly vet everyone you send a repo assignment
to.
They should expect that.
And I know you do that.
And if I was in your position and I knew my, see.
Sometimes you gotta kick me to shut me up.
But if I found out that one of my competitors was doing it and they weren't requiring any
kind of certification or anything, I'd I'd tell him, I'd tell them.
I'd be standing up there on top of the building and say, you know what, you wanna hire
that guy?
Fine.
You hire that idiot, right?
Because he's less expensive than me.
But you're gonna call me back in six months and you're gonna be crying about a lawsuit.
And I'm gonna I'm gonna welcome you back.
And I'm gonna say,
Well, thanks for coming back.
We're gonna do the job right for you.
'Cause you know that's true.
Well, yeah, I mean, I wanna sleep at night.
So, uh, you know, I you feel like you're in this constant loop and you're in a race that
with there's never a finish line.
But I I know that, you know, we fought we you know, I and I hope others in our in my space
are are doing the same thing.
Um where, you know, I wanna be able to sleep at night, right?
And I you know, and again we talked about this earlier, mistakes are gonna happen.
It's not
It's not the mistake, it's how you respond to it, how you take care of it.
Um, but yeah, I you know, I want to make sure we're do we're doing all the right things.
if we're being judged and we're being equally um, you know, looked at as you know, with
with our competitors, then we, you know, if it then we should all have the same standards,
right?
Insurance should be identical, pricing, right?
I mean, if if you want, if you want to see who's who the best is out there, then sometimes
you have to look at
those intangibles, right?
Um what what kind of insurance coverage do they have?
Uh what kind of security, uh data security protocols or measures they have in place to
secure all the data that that that's being shared, things like that.
'cause that that costs money too, to to ensure that all that information is secure within
whatever framework you have.
If you have paper files or you have if everything's in the cloud, you have to ensure that
that stuff is is secure.
how you vet your own employees, right?
That alone.
um, you know, is is a differentiator, um, could make or break.
Um, you know, and and we talked about the certifications.
Um last question, how can lenders better protect themselves from exposure while still
operating efficiently?
It comes down to knowledge.
It comes down to knowledge on the side of the lender and it comes down to knowledge on the
side of the forwarder and the recovery agency.
It does.
It also has
It comes down to two price points.
Letters can't be cheap, right?
They gotta y you want the vehicle back, you gotta pay.
You know what?
You're gonna write off a loss, it's gonna go to auction, whether it's a Peterville or
whether it's a a a Volkswagen, right?
You're gonna have a loss.
But you have that you have that you have that column where you list your losses.
You know what?
And they're probably writing off half of it anyway, right?
And then nobody wants to see anybody get hurt, right?
It's more about that than the money, right?
Of course, we all need to make a living and everything, but I like you said, I want to
sleep at night too.
I don't I don't wanna see anything.
I don't wanna if I see something going on and someone's gonna about to get hurt, I'm gonna
step in and I'm gonna do something about it.
You wouldn't believe the videos that I've watched of of consumers getting run over and
gunfights between consumers and repossessors.
I mean, it all comes to my desk, and I'm looking at this.
And I can't believe sometimes how stupid these people are, right?
Whether they're momentarily stupid, but they were stupid all day, right?
I mean I mean, so I think uh to answer your question, I think knowledge has got to be most
of it, but I think I think that bottom line, you gotta be able to adjust that bottom line
where safety is a higher priority.
than profit.
And that's a good way to good way to wrap things up here, Mark.
Um I wanna end on something that ties a lot of this together and get your get one final
perspective from you.
When wrongful repossessions happen, is it really a process failure or is it a culture
issue across the industry?
If it's culture, can it actually be fixed?
Or are we still focused on cost over quality for that to change?
I don't think it's culture.
Because because everybody can fall behind on a payment.
Whether you're an attorney who didn't get his phone didn't ring, whether you're a
carpenter who got laid off because of whatever reason.
Or whether you whether y you're a small business person who for whatever reason you didn't
know how to scale your operation.
I I I think I think it's about lack of training and and and and and lack of responsibility
to step up to the plate and do things right.
Uh maybe I'm missing the mark on the definition of culture.
I don't know.
No, I I I think it people do things right.
People follow the professional standards.
And there are professional standards in the repossession industry.
Right.
They're easily found.
You don't have to you don't have to research very deep to find out who's providing
certification.
Even the lending industry, you go to the ELFA conference, right?
And you see that they're focusing on education.
Like I said, I was down at the Florida Bar Association conference two weeks ago, right?
And they're teaching attorneys, they're they're reminding attorneys, this is how you do
this, this is how you do that.
All across the board.
Knowledge is knowledge is uh number one, my friend.
It sure is.
It's been a great conversation, Mark.
I appreciate you sharing your experience and perspective.
There's a lot here that can help I, you know, lenders, uh forwarders, strategic partners,
uh, you know, local repossessors, you know, uh think differently and and operate more
responsibly.
Um before we wrap up, I gotta put you on the spot with a quick debate.
Since you've recently traded the Florida sunshine for Ohio living again.
I know what you're gonna say, but go ahead.
You know, which state would you say is more dangerous?
Is it Florida or Ohio?
You know, we got Florida, it's got the hurricanes, you got alligators, sharks, poisonous
snakes, um, and the occasional headline that makes the rest of the country shake their
heads.
and on the other side, Ohio's got snowstorms, black ice, potholes that can swallow a small
car.
And uh Ohio State fans.
Um, so you know, you live in both.
So let's hear your case.
Which which state's more dangerous and why?
In Florida, just about three years ago, I was out on my Kubota and I was bush hogging
around the edges and I got off the tractor because I saw a log over there.
I wanted to take over to my uh wood pile.
I got off the tractor, I heard this strange noise.
I didn't quite know what it was.
It was a ticking sound, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, sounded like a loud clock,
right?
Yep.
I looked down and there's a rattlesnake down there staring up at me, doing that thing he
does.
Right?
And I immediately thought, Wow, that doesn't sound like it does on T V But it was a
beautiful snake.
I mean it was huge, it was beautiful, and I had my clock on my side.
Uh and I don't normally carry, but when I'm out there I do.
So I thought, you know what, I'm gonna shoot his head off.
I'm gonna take him, I'm gonna skin him, I'm gonna make a nice hat band or something out of
him.
So I slowly pulled the clock out, I took good aim and I emptied that clip in him.
Right.
Boom boom boom.
Three times I find a rattlesnake outside my house.
One night, pitch up and a friggin' lion comes walking by.
People call them Florida Panthers.
They're lions.
They look just like a cougar, right?
If I gotta deal with a few winters up here, maybe the occasional mosquito infestation or
whatever it is, buddy.
I'm excited to have Florida in my rear view mirror.
And it's not easy being a Browns fan, but I am still a Browns fan.
I can't wait to the next Buffalo game of the Browns.
Well, we were just there last year.
We barely beat you guys.
I I think that's where uh I think that's where Allen hurt his foot.
Um, you know, a few weeks before we lit he limped into the playoffs.
But yeah, Cleveland gave us gave us run for our money.
We we we barely we barely came out of there with with a win.
Um, it wasn't one of our best games of the year.
But yeah, for sure.
We we got a new stadium being built.
We're gonna open it up this year.
We're excited about it.
Um, so yeah, it's great.
You're only a few hours away now instead of being, you know, a twenty something hour drive
or you know, four three and a half hours away.
So Yeah.
It's closer to drive to you than it is than it was to fly to you down in down in um down
in Orlando.
Yep.
So but I would agree.
I I I would definitely you can always shovel the snow.
You don't have to drive, so you don't have to worry about black ice if you just stay home,
right?
living in Buffalo, we have our we have plenty of potholes.
Just try to avoid if you can.
Um and uh, you know, we don't have you know, we're not a big college football account, so
we don't have you know, we don't have all different kinds of, you know, fan bases here.
You know, it's most uh obviously mostly Bills fans here, but uh I know Ohio has uh, you
know, Ohio State, um
big you know, obviously the big big following there.
But but yeah, I'd rather I'd rather shovel 'cause it'll eventually melt, right?
The gators, the Panthers or lions, the snakes, uh, love bugs, th those things are always
going to be there, right?
So you can't can't really, you know, it's not you can't those aren't going to melt away
or, you know, unless unless all of a sudden Florida starts getting getting um, you know,
very, very cold.
I I don't think you're ever gonna rid yourself of of those it of of those issues.
So I I'll take the snow too.
I'm I'm on your side of this debate.
So on the same team.
And and I hope I've been able to answer um all your questions uh that you had.
and I do appreciate you uh giving me the opportunity to share some of the things that I've
learned over the years.
I'm not an old guy, right?
Just because I've been in industry for fifty years, I got a lot more years to go.
For sure, Mark.
For sure.
Neither one of us are done.
Our our book's still being written, right?
So um but uh there's still a lot of a lot of difference we can make in this industry.
Um, I'm certainly looking forward to what lies ahead.
Um and everybody listening, thank you for tuning in.
Um to the ACS portfolio perspective.
If you found value in today's episode, please subscribe, share it with somebody in your
network.
We look forward to continuing the conversations next time.
Thank you for listening.