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We share stories of how the blood of Jesus has transformed ours and others' lives.
āHi everybody. I'm Denalee Bell and welcome to the Red Ledger. Today I have my friend Lissa Frazier on. I'm so excited to have you. It's been a long time coming because we had to reschedule a bit, so I appreciate you coming. Lisa and I met at Bible college and I loved her immediately. She's wise, hilarious, fun.
She makes Christian friends fun. That's how they all should be. And she has a really bold personality with strong convictions, which I agree with. So it really makes it easy for me to love you. So, but everyone should have some friends that are easy to love because life's hard. So Lisa spoke recently on judgment and it was life changing for me.
And that's why I invited you on the show because I think a lot of us out there harshly judge ourselves or maybe judge other people. And I think we can learn from you. And what I learned from you is. God's grace and mercy is even bigger than I could imagine. Though I've been a Christian for many years, I know that He has grace and mercy, but I don't think, I think He just takes us next level in the understanding of how big He is.
Or maybe I just realized, He's so much bigger than I can imagine again. So I appreciate you coming on to share your story. Of course. It was life changing for me, and I expect that it will be life changing for people who listen. Awesome. So thank you. I'm happy to help. It was life changing for me to have that realization of how much God loves me, because I'd always had this Like, I can't reach that high.
Like it just, the standard was so high, I could never reach it, which that's heaven, right? That's heaven. But in my mind, I was supposed to have to reach that even with Jesus. Like I was thinking, I still have to, I, I gotta get there. I gotta get there. And when you get that realization that. You're there with Jesus.
There's such a peaceful grace feeling that you're like, no, it's done. I don't have to. And I don't have to do that. And you can become comfortable in your relationship with them instead of this constant striving. Yes. That's what it did for me. I agree. Can you give us a little background, maybe sketch a little bit of.
Your life where you might have formed patterns that caused you to judge yourself harshly. Yeah, I grew up in a lot of dysfunction and my parents divorced at when I was very young and my dad died when I was very young there was a lot of strife in the family. My mom was a single mom. She didn't have help.
And And I was living in homes in California that they were just, they were not, I'd ran away. I I'd been in and out of a halfway house. I'd been in institutions and it was just, it was a lot. And coming from the background that I have, there was always this, you're just not good enough. Even in California, this was one of the things, and this was years ago.
Women always had to look a certain way. And if you didn't, you weren't good enough. And that started in junior high. I remember the boys saying, look at those girls, they've got cheese in their legs. And, and they were, you know, and that was at sixth grade. And I was, and so I remember at that point always going, you know, Looking at my weight, looking, you know, that's when the physical aspect really started is in sixth grade, which, you know anyways, so those types of things started.
And then I remember being told. You know, Lisa, you should go to school. Okay. I'm going to go to school. Lisa. Why are you going to school? You don't even have direction. You need to work. You need to pay stuff off. So I was like constantly just Being told and it seemed to me like no matter what I did It was never good enough When I moved to Idaho when I was 14 after I had been living Basically on the streets in california from the time.
I was 13 to almost 15 I had come to idaho and it was a very very small town that I moved into and there was a specific religion there and again, it was a striving religion And I was not, I mean, my family was kind of part of that religion. My grandparents were, but I wasn't and my family drank and smoke.
My, my, my mom did and, and, and you know, my dad was, had passed and I drank and smoked at that age. So I didn't fit in the church. So in the community, even if you guys weren't practicing, the community was, yeah. And so the community was a majority, 90%. And I did not. And, and so I didn't fit in and it's not that people were outright mean to me.
It was just the judgment. And then I started myself forming judgments because I think we all want to belong, right? Like as a human being, you want to belong to something, to your family, to your church family, to the cool kids at school, to whatever it is that you want to belong to. And. Here I moved to this city and I wanted to belong, but I didn't belong at all because I didn't practice what they preached.
I didn't practice what they did. And so I started identifying how different I was from them. Just as much as they identified how I wasn't doing what I should. And so through those judgments it just kept it just kept piling on, you know, I didn't go to church. So it's not going to, you're not going to go to heaven.
If you don't get married in the temple, if you don't do the, you don't go to heaven. I was told because I smoked cigarettes that I was going to go to hell by a boy that I went to school with there. And I was like, why would I want to know Jesus? Why would I want to know? I'm going to hell anyways. And, and, and I thought, wow, cause I, you know, I was so lost.
I just wanted love and I wanted to belong somewhere and I belonged nowhere. And so these judgments and the confusion came in and I just started Identifying how I didn't fit in I didn't fit in over here. I didn't look I you know, I don't look like these people I don't talk like these people. I don't act like these people and I tried going to their church And in my stomach it never resignated and I was like if it was firm No, and because I always thought like I always saw the kids that were having a hard time and I wanted to help them I didn't care what they did I want to help them.
I don't care who you are affiliated with. What, you know, I want to help you. I don't want you to be in, in suffering mode or in despair. I don't want people to be like that. And not that I have control over them, but if I can participate in lifting or helping, then I would rather do that. Then I'm not going to walk by somebody who is in suffering and just be like, Oh, that sucks.
What a bummer. I, I just, I don't have it in me. And that's because Jesus is in you. Amen. That's right. That's right. But I just couldn't. I, and, and, and so often what I experienced was so much rejection because I never measured up to other people's expectations. And then I didn't measure up to my own because I started agreeing with what was projected, I guess.
So you started believing in the programming that the world was giving you. Yeah. So you said you. You were living on the streets from 13 to 15? Yeah, it was about that. I ran away. Oh, okay. You were on your own? Your own. My own. Okay. Yeah. Wow. My mom changed the locks. I couldn't get in the house. So, I lived with a family that let me live there, at their house, and and then I got to stay with my best friend at times, and other times I didn't have a place.
My mom also kicked me out at a young age for a while, and I went and lived with another family. It was that tough love generation. But also, that's another judgment, right? Like, oh, I, I felt like not, maybe not worthy to be in her home. Yeah. Right? So, you got judgment upon judgment piled upon you. And my dad's side of the family my real dad's side that was hard.
I, I was never, I was never good enough. My grandmother, everything was always dangled. There was a carrot. And if I didn't do and meet an expectation, your inheritance was taken away. So I felt like I was always trying to get what I thought was mine, which was my dad's legacy, whatever that was. I still, to this day, don't know because I was never told.
Because People stepped in and were like, Oh, we're going to take over, which whatever, fine. I don't care. The one thing they have never been able to have are the memories that I have. So I've let all the stuff, whatever money was there, go, it's, you know, it's stuff. It's it's stuff. So, but that I threw, I mean, I could never, my grandmother, did you ever read the book flowers in the attic?
I did. Yeah. My grandmother reminded me of her on so many levels. Yeah. Or, like, Queen Elizabeth, you know, that stoic, and they're just, you know, I don't know if that's that generation where they just had to be hard, and now I don't judge it in a way where I'm, you know, I, I think she just gave me what she could, and, and she couldn't give much.
She was just very hard and cold. Well, people who haven't received much don't have much to give. Yeah, pretty much. And, and sometimes that's our own fault that we don't receive, right? We're not accepting the gifts that Jesus or God is giving us. Right. Mm hmm. That's how I have to look at those situations.
And it helps to have compassion for people. Yeah. If you can understand that. Because I've been in that place too where I didn't have much to give. Yeah. I understand that. And I see that. I see that so often now. And it helps me when dealing with others. Knowing they didn't, they can only give what they've, What they themselves have and have received.
And so, I mean, She just was, I mean, that side of my family, I, and I, to this day, don't really have much. I've, I've, I've just, I've, I've had several depression called a bipolar disorder. And I've had twice, three times. My second mother when you're like, Oh, my God, I'm gonna be like this. And I've just had it so many times.
I'm like, Oh my God, we're gonna be like, Oh my God. We're gonna be like, Oh my God. There's gonna be a couple of times. I'm like, Okay. I don't know. I don't know. Worth it. But thankfully now I have the Holy Spirit voice and the word that combats all of that. So even though I, you know, beliefs are ever changing, right?
They're not concrete. Your beliefs are always changing. My beliefs are changing, but you still have your, your foundation. One of the things that I there's a man who is kind of like a father figure to me, and anyways, he taught me some baseball fundamentals to teach to my son. And Mark said to me, Lisa, when your son gets tired, he's going to go back to what he knows.
So you want to get these fundamentals down deep and deep and deep. So it becomes his foundation so that when he gets tired, he goes back to the fundamentals versus what he was before. Cause each time you get tired, you go back to your old ways. So what I have now is I have these new fundamentals that Christ is teaching me, the Holy Spirit is teaching me, and I'm creating them and making that my foundation versus what it was before.
So when I get tired or overwhelmed, I go to that instead of the old, but it's still sometimes there where you have to, you know I think you had explained this to me when I was going through something and not giving myself enough grace. And you know, I think what something that else that you said that's similar for me, it's like, you know, when you're even like if you're golfing or playing baseball, there's that swing, but you go back to the old swing, the old wrong swing, the old wrong swing.
And that's where you can get hurt. Yes. And, and that's why you need to learn, you need to learn the correct way because even though you're born. You have to learn. And if not, you just adjust or you, I guess, survive. You become resourceful in whatever it is that you're doing. And and your body will adjust.
Like, I mean, look at your legs and your back and, and when, when picking things up, or if you don't know the correct way to pick something up, you just continue and continue and continue. And then that's when people end up usually going to like the chiropractor and having their hips adjusted or their back adjusted.
And, and but when you learn the right way. where it's, you know, the way we're supposed to do it. It's not as, it's not as hard on your body. And, but it takes a little bit to build that muscle. Yeah. And that's the grace. Yeah. That's the grace. We're not going to get it perfect for a while. Yeah. Cause I think that I had that expectation, like, I know this, I know this is wrong and I keep going back here.
Yeah. But everything starts with the knowing first and then it's, you're going to be tested or however you want to put it. You're you're another situation is going to occur where you have the opportunity to
And so, you can either fret and get all anxious, you know, or you can just be still and know and, and just take the next step and be like, okay, I know something new and I'm going to do it this way. And you just, that's how you make those changes and corrections. They're slow. They're never, it's never just like that.
It's a dream. Yeah, it's not. And we always expect it to be. Our expectations in my opinion are always, you know, and I was thinking about, you know and I think it's important for us to talk about our conversation today about those feelings of judgment and being judgmental because we have kind of similar backgrounds. I feel like how it shows up in me for other people is I have really high expectations and I don't take it in account their capacity or their, where they're at in their journey because I want them, I just assume everyone knows everything I know. Right. Yeah. It's all about expectations. Yeah. And What do I expect of others?
And do they expect that of themselves? Are we on the same page? You know, I mean, one of the things that I've enjoyed about counseling is learning that counseling is learning how to communicate. You can either have those counselors where they identify, it's all you, it's all your mom, it's all your, you know, or or what you can do is find those.
You know, I like what, what my counselor said to me, what can you do differently? So if I want to change you and, or something that's going on between us, then what do I need to do? Because when I change what I do. That forces you to change, right? It just forces a change. It does. And so I no longer have to expect anything of you, but I have an expectation upon myself, one in which I can achieve because I'm placing the expectation and I'm knowing that, okay, I can do something different instead of, judging and disappointment and offense.
So Lisa, was there a turning point or a catalyst in your life where you just didn't want to feel this judgment anymore or where God spoke to you? Through life Bible college, I have I didn't realize how much judging I was doing. And, and I don't mean like religiously, I just mean judgment. I place judgment, like I will say things like, Oh, that's stupid.
What'd you do that for? Is that considered judgment? We're joking. That's dumb. You know, and I would think that about something I did or somebody else did. And one day I had said that to my counselor and she was like, Well, that's judgment, Lisa. And I was like, I'm sorry, what? I'm sorry, excuse you? I am not.
And, and when she, it was revealed to me, but my heart was receptive to hearing it. And so then I became conscientious and, and I know it's because I've had the word poured into me and, and I'm seeing, because I want to act more Christ like. I don't want to judge. I've got to judge. His name is God. He's the ultimate creator.
I don't need to judge I can have discernment and opinions, but I don't need to judge and so I have really made a conscious effort to I guess avoid being like that And then I started then that's when I started seeing how much I was judging myself And I I knew there was all this self criticism and self talk.
That was You know That wasn't good, but I didn't realize how much I was judging myself, and I did not, you know, you have that voice that you hear all the time. And so it's just like, it's like sometimes if there's a vacuum in the background, you don't really notice it or there's birds or whatever. And then all of a sudden you hear it and you're like, that's annoying.
And that needs to stop. How do we shut that off? So that's kind of what happened. I find, cause I've been. I, apparently I struggled with this more than I thought to after hearing you speak about it. And I thought how, how harshly I judge myself and then harshly I judge other people probably as well, which is probably a natural relationship.
Yeah. So if you do judge yourself harshly, there's likelihood that you're judging other people as well. And I think that's the problem. Yeah. And I notice. There's always a relationship too for me when I judge somebody else, if I really look deep in it. Yeah. It's something I don't like about myself and that person.
Exactly. Always, always, always. Sometimes it's not obvious and I have to dig, but it, it's there. I always find it. I know. I understand. And I don't like it. I understand. And, and I think something you said too that I want to touch on because I think this is confusing for people. There's judgment and there's discernment.
Yes. There's judgment. And then there's an opinion. Yeah. And I think in the current world, we get a lot as, as Christians, you're not allowed to judge. Matthew says, judge unless you're not being judged. And I think that is really misconstrued. And of course, I, I believe we have no job. Judging people who are not in our church family, meaning children of Christ.
We're not supposed to, we're not called to. Right. I also believe that we are supposed to discern what is sinful and good for us and not. Right. And what is good for us to be around and not. Right. But I think the problem when I heard your story is, It's the problem that I have with when people judge or when I judge, it's the condemnation in it.
Yes. That's what I see more than the love. Right. And I think God, you know, He, it's, it's a heart thing. Yeah. Are we wanting to help a sister in Christ? and share with her or am I gossiping about her behind her back because I'm jealous of her great hair, right? Well, thank you but I had nothing to do with it You know I've heard the scripture, you know the scripture, judge a man by his fruit and so I have been, my goal has been to look at a man and see what the fruit is of his life or her life.
And that's the only judgment that I think that we're called to have. The discernment is, is, is that behavior something that I should be around, right? Birds of a feather flock together. Should I be flocking with people that are you know, abusive or this. No, I don't want to be in that flock. So that's the discernment where you have to kind of look in between the lines and read and see, but that doesn't mean that you judge that person.
It's the, it's the behavior. It's the discernment of the knowing as a Christian with having the Holy Spirit inside of you, you know, right from wrong, you know, what is love, you know, what is love versus what is not. And sometimes love is hard. Look at Jesus when he was upset about the tax collectors and, and, you know, he was upset and cause he was just, he's like, what, what are you guys doing?
And he said, no, no, this is not, this is not how we're supposed to be. This, no. That is different than judging and saying, you're awful, you're ugly, you're whatever the, whatever the thing is. It's truth in helping somebody live a better life is very different than condemning them because of, and I feel like in Matthew before and after is setting it up really for the Pharisees in the hypocrisy of how they're acting.
Yeah. The judge, the judge not be judged. Yeah. Right. So pulling that plank out of her eye. Yes. Well, when I, when I went into this this the sermon and getting ready to, I was like, okay. And I had this whole thing that I was like, oh yeah, this is good, Lord. This is good. Faith versus belief. And, and so I was going in and then, and then, The Lord plopped into me the situation that I kind of based it all around and I was like, Oh, I forgot about that.
Are you going to share that with us? I mean, I will. Sure. Is that a good time? Sure. It's a good time. I got married when I was 19 years old, right out of high school. And I'd married my high school sweetheart and he was part of that religion that I did not. I married him in that church because that we didn't get in the temple because I wasn't worthy and neither was he at that time, according to their laws, whatever.
And so anyways, about six months into our marriage, he. somebody and did not want to be with me anymore. And so I believed in marriage and wanted to stay married, even though I knew going into that, I shouldn't have married him. I knew it. Walking down that aisle. Were you a Christian at this point? No.
Okay. No. Didn't know Jesus. No, I knew of him. I knew of him. They had brought I, I had been taught when I was, after my dad had died my mom had these Mormon missionaries come and then they baptized me Mormon, which I was always fearful to be baptized because I thought you were then affiliated with the church and I didn't know what baptism was.
So I had this, I was confused about it. And so my affiliation with Christ was what I had received from the Mormon religion. And what I had received was not, it wasn't good. So I, I, I was confused and didn't know. And so anyway, so then my husband decided, you know, Nope, I want to be with this. Okay. Bye.
Whatever. So that ended. And I was feeling awful cause he, we worked at the same place and every day I'd show up to work and at lunch, I mean, it was like a room like this and there's seats and there he is. With his girlfriend now and I had to see this every day and I was so erratic. I was so sad I mean, it was like the ultimate rejection divorce in my opinion is one of it's a big rejection.
It was hard It was very even at a young age because I just wanted to belong. I wanted my own family I'd been rejected by my own family I had so many problems that I I just I felt so alone and I was like seriously and then I anyways, so But I did it I was in a very dark place and I was drinking a lot. And I had gone home one night and I'd been drinking, not much, but I was, you know, I'd, I'd worked this graveyard or not graveyard, but it was like four o'clock in the afternoon until 11 or 12 at night or whatever. And so I was sitting on my bed and it was an old house. And I remember sitting there and I had had this revolver.
And I was like, first off. Who gives a woman this for Valentine's Day? . Wow. Two of . Like it was so bad. Was this in Idaho? ? Yes, this was, this was, well, we live in, I we're currently in Idaho now. . Yeah, this was Idaho . And I'm not ripping on Idaho. I love it. It's home. I love Idaho too. And it's been my home for 30 plus years.
So . So I had this gun, which I didn't give it to him either. I was like, I'm gonna keep that. You can't have it. Not that I was gonna use it. But then I was going to use it. I was sitting on my bed and I was like, my family doesn't want me. My ex husband doesn't want me. He, I mean, and, and at the time, see, here comes some judgment.
This is, this is going to expose how I was. So I was looking at that girl and I was like, seriously, seriously. Did she see my hair? I was like, you chose her? Oh my gosh. There must be something really pathetic about me because you chose her. I was so, I was like, oh my gosh. Okay. And so you just start to be, I felt awful.
I was just, it was. It was one of the darkest times of my life. And I How could you help but not compare yourself? I know, I know. I mean in that situation, I think that would be a normal reaction. That's good. Thank you for that because i'm like Sorry, i'm not being i'm not trying to be rude. I think comparison is part of the problem with judgment too, right?
Totally, but I was judged. I was like, I mean, I looked at her. I was like you are not attractive You're not and what you did is wrong you You invaded a marriage and now you're gonna go get married in a temple I mean, they were engaged and then, and I was like, whatever, that's between you and God. But I don't, you know, I just was like, that's none of my business.
And then that's really what I thought then, but I was like, whatever. And and so as I sat there that night, I had this gun and I was like, I'm done. Nobody wants me. I'm not wanted. I didn't feel wanted. And my one side of my family didn't like me. And told me
how much
I wasn't excuse me, I wasn't worthy to receive their love. And now my own husband was completely rejecting me. And then my relationship with my mother, she had had such a hard time when my dad died and raising us and she and her and I, our relationship was pretty awful. And she was just married and, and to my stepdad and, and so we didn't talk and my brother, he was off in, in South America.
And so I didn't really have anybody and I felt so alone. And so I was like, I'm done. I'm done. And I had this gun and I was like holding it and I was thinking, how am I going to do this? Do I hold it in my heart? Do I, what do I do? And I, I, you know, you start to think, what do you do? And anyways, somebody comes through my door and it was like one or two o'clock in the morning.
And, and I'm like, what? Who's, who's at my house? And my friend, my friend showed up. I said, what are you doing here? And she said, Lisa, I was woken up in the middle of the night and I don't know, why am I here? And we come back, it was just a one bedroom house. And so she sees the gun and she's like, Oh my gosh, I'm so glad I'm here.
And had she not come, I don't know that I'd be speaking. Cause I didn't reach out to her. We'd have cell phones then. That wasn't reaching out, that wasn't going to call. Somebody did. Somebody did. The Holy Spirit. And she wasn't a Christian or was a Christian? No. She wasn't. I mean, maybe she was, I don't know.
She wasn't acting like one. God uses everyone. He sure does. Because I didn't, I didn't expect. I didn't expect to, you know, and I didn't at that time and think it was a God in a godly intervention. But then I was like, Oh, wow, that was so anyways, to have that happen was very, I was like, Okay, wow. So I didn't do that.
And I just was like, Okay, I can't believe I even thought that that is I need to, I need to get my perspective change. And, and anyways, as I was working on this sermon, I'm reflecting back at this moment. And then I start to reflect over that year.
And anyways, I then get with somebody and, and about, I don't know, six, six months later or something, I found out I was pregnant and I was like, what am I? I'm just 20 years old, 19, 20 years old. What am I going to do? I can't do this. I've been drinking. I smoke cigarettes. I even started taking diet pills.
Like, you know, and I was thinking I've, I've already hurt this, this, this child potentially. Well, I mean, oh my gosh, I'm all like, I just started thinking all this. And so I was told by somebody close to me that I needed to go have an abortion and I was like, okay, okay. So I found a place in Utah. And I went and I had an abortion and during that process I realized I had just terminated a pregnancy and I I realized The gravity of it growing up in california.
I I was taught that It's not a life And so I was all for that. I was like, oh abortion. It's okay like because it's not really a life yet, right? And But in that moment, I realized it was. And there's nothing I can do to get it back. It's done. And it was awful. I was like, wow. And I left and I went home and I was in my bedroom.
And and I was sick and in a lot of pain. And, and I get a call from the guy's mother who found out I did it, who was also Mormon. And And she screamed, you murderer. And I was like, and I was already feeling awful. And I was like, Oh, oh my gosh. And I knew she was right. She was right. Like I can't, I couldn't deny it. And I took it and then got off the phone with her and, you know, cried. But what I realized through this sermon and through reflection on these instances. is how God saved me, even though He knew I was going to commit the ultimate sin of murder of my own child. He saved me from killing myself.
You don't get bigger grace than that. This was what was revealed to me in such a big way when you spoke was that And he knew you were going to do this and he saved you anyway. He saved me anyways. Mm hmm. And how many things have we done that he knew we were going to do? Yeah. All of us. Right. I mean, that really woke me up to all of the things I had done before I was saved and that he knew.
And I could see him throughout my life, like where, where he was in my life when I didn't know. Right. You know, but if you ask him, he'll, he'll show you. Totally. Cause he's really cool that way. He is. But. that he knew I would make all these mistakes and this mistake with my husband or the thing I did wrong last night at dinner when I gossiped inappropriately about a family member.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, huh. You know, and I felt so bad about it when I got home and he knew I was gonna do it. I mean, I know that's not a big deal, but thankfully, those are my current sins and not the, yeah, not the drugs and the drinking and the promiscuity that I used to live in. Yeah. So that's how it was for me.
So it was exactly the same. And now, and I, and I had all these years of looking back and I know we're not supposed to look back, but sometimes I want to look back just to reflect on how far I've come. versus where I was and the mistakes that I made, because there was a lot of promiscuity. I mean, there was so much.
It's, I'm, even though I'm the same, I'm different and being, and I'm different in the way where I don't condemn myself for my past because I didn't know. It's just like we were talking about with other people, you know, they can't give you something that they haven't received. Well, I didn't receive the knowledge.
I didn't know. I didn't have the knowledge. So for me to judge myself and expect me to be where I am today, back then, is unreasonable. And I'm not saying that what I did was okay, but what I'm saying is, is what I did is forgiven. Yes. And what I did, I'm loved and I am accepted into a family, my, my blood family may not accept me, but the blood of Jesus does and I'll take it.
And I am so thankful. And I, you know, I now have friends from Life Bible College that I am, I'm like, the friendship is different. The relationships are different because. Praise God. Praise God. Praise God. And I am so, like, the things that I was rejected from before, it doesn't matter. It just It just doesn't.
That grace wiped it all clean. Do you think part of the releasing of that judgment is you forgiving yourself? Totally. I mean, I, I've said prayers about, you know, and said, Oh, I forgive myself for, for having an abortion. And I forgive myself for getting married at such a young age and a divorce. And, but I didn't really, I didn't really, I didn't.
So this is the tricky thing with, let's just talk about abortion since we talked about it. Yeah. I think. Okay. we have to judge abortion, but not the person. Right. And this is a perfect example because you're sitting right here and we can talk about it. Yeah. Is it, it's a, it's a wild topic right now, politically.
Yeah. And I feel that Christians were getting it wrong. Yeah. And this is what I think we're getting it wrong. We're, calling somebody a murderer. Yeah. Okay. We're supposed to be reflecting the light of Jesus and you weren't a believer at this time. No, I became a believer at 39. Okay. So, right. So let's say the mother did it right.
Yeah. It could have looked like care, concern, and love. Right. And to guide you towards Jesus. Right. And that's what that looks like. Yeah. We aren't really supposed to call out murder to somebody who's not even a believer, right? They're not even, they're not a believer, first of all, so that's not in love.
And it's not, that's God's job. Our job is to plant some seeds. The judgment that Christians have over this. is wrongly placed. If I were to be judgmental, which I kind of am about it, because it destroys lives, and makes people feel guilt and condemnation and shame, and it hurts women, and they are sold a lie that it's not a human being.
Right. And that's what I was sold. My fight is to isn't with the woman who's been deceived, who, how would they know better if that's all they'd been taught? My problem's with the liars who are continuing this because it is a 7 trillion economy, all of it. And that, that is, I think it's okay to judge that.
Yeah, I agree. I agree. And judge the people who are pushing it. Yeah. Not, not. Not in a condemning way, but in a, we've got to say something. Not, not holding a street on the sign or a sign on the street, yelling at people, calling them murders. I think that is going to have the opposite effect of what we actually want is for people to be saved, people to be healed.
people to see us reflecting Jesus, because that's not what Jesus did. No, that's not, you know, if, if you were sitting right here pregnant and contemplating abortion, my approach to you would be, you are, I would come at it from perspective of Christ. And before I opened my mouth, I would ask the Holy Spirit to speak through me, because he's got the wisdom.
Yes. And my feelings towards you, if you were a stranger or if you, you know, even as my friend, I would say, I strongly want to urge you to reconsider your decision. Reason being is I had the same viewpoint that you did, but I made a choice to go in the direction that you're going in. And what I realized was that when that machine turned on, and this might be kind of, you know, hard to hear.
But you feel that pull and you feel that life removed, and you know in that instance that there is a God. That's when I knew there is a God, because I was thinking there wasn't a God because people told me when my dad died, well, apparently God needed him more. And I'm like, Oh, wow. Okay. God's really harsh.
He needed my dad, so he took him away from a nine year old little girl. And so I Please don't say that, people. Yeah. It's really hard. And so that's when I had a realization of God and life and was like, and I can see myself in that moment, almost as if I was sitting above myself. I remember going. What did I just do?
What did I just do? And I've told my children, there are decisions in life that you cannot take back. There's very few absolutes in life, but there are some. And so being wise and cautious in the things that you do, can help you to avoid absolutes that you can't undo, you know, like anyways, like you can't take back death.
I mean, yes, we can raise the dead. We can lay hands on the sick. We can do all those things. But in this instance, I couldn't do that. I couldn't, I didn't have, I didn't, I couldn't do it and I can't, it's done. And I have to live with that decision while I'm here. And that's not, I mean, I'm, I'm, I forgive myself.
I know Jesus forgives me, but you know. At a previous church I worked in and did classes and for some reason, you're just given women a lot with the same problems and with the same issues or the same challenges. And what I noticed with many women who had had abortions, there is a shame that is really hard.
Yeah. That, that they can't, they have a really hard time forgiving themselves. Well, especially if you have children. I see my kids. Yeah. And I'm like, I would have a child in their late twenties, early thirties. I, I can't count right now. 95. So, you know, almost 30 years old. Yeah. So, oh my gosh. I, and that's just hard to, and I think about that and it's not that I do it every day.
I don't, I don't think about it every day, but I do think of it often. I think of those types of things and would it have been a girl? Would it have been a boy? And, you know, and I can't, that you can't do that stuff cause it kind of beats you up, but you still, those, those things still come and there's a reminder and there's, you know.
So, I mean, the beauty of his forgiveness is we don't have to walk in that bondage and that we can forgive ourselves. And I think that's, that's the hard part. Yeah. And, to not judge ourselves in that moment. Yeah, because that can create a lifetime of abuse. Like you're abusing yourself. Yeah. It's so important to renew your mind every day and to know the Word, because when those things come at you, you know, That's when I have to say, I'm forgiven and I know that child is with Jesus and I will see him or her one day, praise God and we will be reunited in a way that is so beautiful and there won't be hurt or pain or any anger towards me and, And, and that is.
Praise, praise God. Thank you for saying that. I hope somebody heard that. Yeah. I had shame, but I don't. God did remove that. I don't have shame. Otherwise I probably wouldn't be, you know, I mean, this is the internet, and I do appreciate you being vulnerable and authentic because our goal is to help people.
And so if your story can do that, thank you, God. Yeah. Praise God. I just want somebody else who is going through this or has gone through this to know, number one, You're not alone. And that's what I thought. I was alone. And you're not. You are so far from alone. You might be isolated right now by yourself, but that's where the enemy wants you.
But you are not alone. And even if you're not in Christ, You're still not alone. I was not in Christ and I was being looked out for. And God was chasing you down. He was. And he's likely chasing you down if you're watching this and you're not a believer. Amen. Amen. He's chasing you right now. Yeah, that's what he does.
That's my belief. I agree. There was obviously some biblical perspectives that have helped you through this. Yes. Or verses. Any key verses you hang on to? Well, one of them, Romans has, let me, I forgot my glasses. In Romans, I, I was looking and I remember, you know, Romans is all about God's grace and his grace is so important and it's needed.
And I'm so thankful that he's given it. So in Romans 3, 21 through 24, but now the righteousness of God, apart from the laws revealed being witnessed by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
I have fallen short so many times, and I know that I will continue. But I'm hoping that the fall short gets shorter, it's not as big of a drop, you know? But I know that it is through Christ that I am redeemed. It is not through me. It is through him because God is the only perfect. Jesus is the only perfect and through Christ, I am perfected and I have that grace now.
And I had that realization in 2000 and 15, when I came to Christ. I remember shortly after I was in my front room and I, Matthew 7, 7, ask, and it will be given to you, seek, and you will find, knock, and it will be open to you. I had so much confusion about which way to go because my husband's family was Catholic.
I came from Mormon. I had gotten into new age and I was like, I had two kids. What direction am I supposed to go in? And I knocked. And doors were open and doors were closed that needed to be closed. I sought and I found and I still continue It is his word is so powerful his word every time I seek I find him I do every time I don't he is not hidden He's not promises and his word is true His word is true.
And every time I have sought I have found and every time i've knocked he's been at the door He is there and that grace is Because if, sometimes with friends or family, you ask them to be there and they can't. And, and, and, or they won't, and his promise has always been, he's always been there. So those are the things that have helped me that, that, especially Matthew 7, 7, I think that quite often, but knowing that that grace is enough.
That grace is enough. That carries me through. When I make mistakes as a parent, when I make mistakes as a wife, when I make mistakes as whatever, whatever label I am, if I'm a worker today, if I'm at my job, whatever it is, his grace is enough to get me through it. I don't even know what to say after that.
They don't even know where we're at now. That's the part that's lacking because it's the truth and grace. They have to come together. Yeah. And if you have too much truth or too much grace. You're out of balance. You know, with religion, you never get there. With grace. You're there. When you have this understanding about God's grace, you don't want to sin.
It doesn't mean that you don't. It just means you don't want to. And so when you do sin, that grace is enough and you correct yourself. You take those corrections because that great, you have so much love for the Lord because you know, his grace is there. Like I know what he loved me through. And so, and I know he'll do it again.
I'm not going to make that same mistake. I'm not gonna make, you know, I'm going to do different things. And but no matter what it is that I'm going through, his grace will get me through it because he's not going to leave me. He won't. And he's, he's not rejected me and he won't reject me. And I have such confidence in that.
And that is one of the things in my life that I have confidence in. And I'm so thankful for that. knowing that His grace is enough. His, to have that love, to know the things that I, I mean, I got divorced. I was promiscuous. I was drinking. I had abortion. I, you know, I was not with Christ until I was 39 years old.
That's a lot. There was a lot of stuff that I was able to do and I did it and
he knew back when I was 19 that it was going to take me that long. And, and wow. And he's carried me down. He chased me down. He left the 99 for me. Who else is he? I know somebody is being chased after. I know somebody is being chased after. Me too. And they can hear it. They know it. And that's where, that's where I finally yielded.
You yielded. We have to yield. I've yielded a few times. Yeah. And I think that was my story. I've yielded and come back and yield it. And I, I feel like I'm at a new place where, and I think that's what religion does. Right. It's that constant striving that comes from judgment because we want to be loved.
We want to be approved. And we live in a world where meritocracy is the deal. Like that's how you get approval. And so, I, it took me a long time to understand that I'm approved today. Yes. Like I'm approved today. He chased me down today. Yeah. Not for who I would be. Right. He didn't ask me to come clean. No, no.
It came dirty. Yeah. He cleaned me up. Yeah. I was never going to be able to clean myself up. No, I was never going to be able to. And I don't think I fully understood that maybe even until the last year. Yeah. To get that knowledge. I had smoked for years. Yes. But with him, I was able to quit, and it wasn't a struggle.
It was done. This is the beautiful part of the renewing of our mind and how he transforms and conforms us to him. Yeah. Okay, so I think we've discussed the difference between judgment and discernment, but also that we are to judge some things. Yes, we are. We don't, we don't want to put that out that there's no judgment.
being a Christian. Right. But I think we do it with love, we do it with compassion, we do it to help our sisters and brothers. Yeah. We don't do it to tear them down. No. And that's a heart motivation. Yeah. What would you tell somebody who is 19 year old you, going through the same things you did, struggling with that judgment and needing that approval?
I would say. You're okay. You're okay. Just keep going and seek. Do Matthew 7, 7. Seek and you will find. I have my own experiences. You're going to have your experience. And that is how you, you build off of that relationship with Christ. You will build off of that. I can tell you all the things that I know and that I have learned.
which Jesus loves us, Jesus wants you, He wants you part of the family, but you have to know that and you have to experience that for yourself. So I would say seek, seek and don't make any rash decisions. Don't, and don't trust me. Have your own experience, have your own experience, trust Jesus because His word, if, if any of the Bible is untrue, then the whole thing is untrue.
And that's a good reminder, too. Like, I'm hoping that this conversation inspires somebody to seek more. We are definitely not theologians, so do like Paul says, go verify. You know, if we said something that doesn't sit right with you, look it up because it may be pushing you for further exploration, but it also may be wrong.
And please feel free to put in the comments where we got it wrong. Yeah. I would always approach somebody with a tender heart. The firmness would be in the word, but the tenderness would be in, you know, okay, so you're doing some things. Don't focus on that. Focus on finding him. And allow him to change those or correct those.
That's not my job. So this is, I think, where we get, or where I got caught up in life, I shouldn't say we, I personally, is I just tried so hard to strive at everything. I tried to figure it out. I went to counseling and not Christian counselors, which is very different. Very different. I'm sick of Christian counselor.
Yes. It's a different experience. They want you healed. Yes. They want you out of their office. They don't have time for it. Yes. I agree. They're busy people. Yeah. You know, they want you in and out. They don't need you're a client for life. They want to see healing. Right. So part of the problem was, is that when you get in that striving mentality and you want people to like you because they don't or because you were raised and people didn't necessarily want you or is it creates a cycle and I think it's hard to, if you've in that situation or if that's how you've grown up.
Yeah. It's hard to believe that you can just show up and God's going to love you when you've had to work so hard so hard in it your entire life. So I think that renewing of the mind that changing those things, those things in my life that were so hard to change. Yeah. Like building boundaries, I still struggle, right?
I still struggle, but he changes it. He changes it. It wasn't, and it wasn't, I mean, I studied for years trying to figure out how to do this. Yes. I mean, and there were things I did learn along the way that I picked up that were secular and did work. There were tools. Yeah. The internal change, the heart change, the mind change, that could only have come from God.
That made me feel strong enough that I can do this. Well, that's what, that's where your belief changes, right? Your belief. Then you start believing the word. Yes. Then you start believing the promises. I couldn't believe the promises of God based on what knowledge I had. Years ago god's word says my people perish for a lack of knowledge I was perishing and his people did perish because I did not have the knowledge Yes, and when you have that knowledge your perspective and your belief will change I was told this by my counselor and I love her beliefs.
She said lisa beliefs are not concrete They are ever changing and I was thinking What? I have this belief and I love Christ now and her, her, her, and I had all this stuff in my head, but I will never not love it. Yeah. I will never not. I mean, this is so great. Everybody should be on team Lisa and really even in my beliefs in Christ have changed and evolved to something even better.
Like I've grown in his love and that belief in love. And so. Cool. That's where, that's where it changes. It changes from here to here and you grow, you grow, and then your relationships change and all these other things. And it takes time, you know, the garden takes time to plant the seed, to water it, and some things take longer.
To before you see a sprout and then they have these seasons of growth and then you the fruit comes off and then you Know you prune and vice versa anyways and one of the things that when you were talking I was thinking about is I remember being at the beach at You know 12 and 13 years old and you would get caught up in those waves and when the waves Would come and the more you fought it would pull you under but when you would release you would be brought up Yes.
Yes. Yes. So the more you fight Yes. The more you get stuck, but when you finally let go, I, and I don't know if somebody hasn't been to the beach, then it's, you know, maybe that's not a good analogy, but that's, that's what I experienced. And that's what I think you do when you let go and finally just go.
It's really what I was trying to describe, but you just did it better. That's why you, that's why she's here. I have the ideas. She has the words. That's great. That's awesome. We know you're out there. We know you're watching this. Part of this actually happened cause we were doing a series on why people hate Christians so much.
Oh, yeah. And we have one coming out on it's mostly hypocrisy. That seems to be the number one. Yeah. But it's also cause we can be very judgmental. Yes. And so maybe you found this for that reason. Yeah. But if you don't know Christ and you would like to know Christ, You just have to open up your heart to him.
And I believe that there's somebody out there, if not multiple people, that want to experience the grace and you can, and I'm telling you, Jesus died for you on the cross. And he took your sins. He took my sins and he took them and Denali's and he took them on the cross for us. And he paid the price. You have to, somebody has to pay the price and Jesus did, but you don't have to.
And you can just say with us, Lord Jesus, I accept you into my heart. I thank you that you died for me on the cross. You took all my sins. I know that you rose from the grave and I know that you are alive today and you are my Lord and Savior. Amen. Amen. In Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Thank you guys for watching.
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