[00:00:00] Announcer: This is the build a vibrant culture podcast, your source for the strategies, systems, and insights you need to turn your dreams into your destiny. Every week we dive into dynamic conversations as our host, Nicole Greer interviews, leadership, and business experts. They're here to shed light on practical solutions to the challenges of personal and professional development. Now here's your host, a professional speaker, coach, and consultant, Nicole Greer.
[00:00:29] Nicole: Welcome everybody to another episode of the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast. My name is Nicole Greer and they call me the Vibrant Coach and I have an epic guest on the show today. Look what I got in my hot little hands. I've got Leadership Behavior DNA and it's from the one, the only Hugh Massie. So let me tell you all about this guy cause he is impressive.
[00:00:49] Hugh Massie is the executive chairman and founder of DNA Behavior International and the Behavior and Money Insights Company as a Titan 100 CEO and widely recognized behavioral solutions architect. Say that three times fast. Hugh Massie approaches every opportunity and challenge from the proven perspective that behavior makes money. Show us the money. By applying exponential thinking and AI driven technologies, Hugh helps growth minded leaders create an exponential future by building category king people-centric businesses, enhancing financial decision-making, culture and performance. His purpose is to empower people worldwide to optimize the alignment of their natural hard wired talents and financial behaviors to make quantum leaps for creating an exponential future with reduced stress.
[00:01:43] And that's what we want. Exponential futures. Reduced stress. Thereby enabling greater happiness, more success, and improved health for 30 or more years. All right. Well, if you don't stay tuned for this one, I don't know what you want from us. So everybody welcome Hugh. He's the author of this amazing book. How are you Hugh?
[00:02:04] Hugh Massie: Oh, great to be with you, Nicole. I'm very well.
[00:02:06] Nicole: Oh my gosh. Listen to that accent too. Where are you calling from? Where did you get that great accent? That is so fantastic.
[00:02:13] Hugh Massie: So I am calling from Atlanta, Georgia, but that is not where I got the accent.
[00:02:17] Nicole: No, that's a whole different thing.
[00:02:20] Hugh Massie: The accent, the accent came from Sydney, Australia, where I was born and lived for the first part of my life.
[00:02:27] Nicole: Yeah, that's so fantastic. All right. Well, I've been to Sydney, Australia. If you haven't done that, everybody, please put it on your bucket list. It's fantastical. I had the best time in Australia. Australians are the best. All right. So I'm glad I've got Hugh. So tell me a little bit about what you mean when you say "Leadership Behavior DNA". Can you just kind of explain that for us right out of the gate?
[00:02:51] Hugh Massie: I think the best way to start this off is, Nicole, is that every human has a natural hardwired behavior uh, that is ingrained in them from very early in life. So it's really starts off with your genetics at conception through till about seven years old. That's 95 percent of your hard wiring. Now that's not all of your personality, but that's the core enduring trait formation.
[00:03:18] Nicole: Yeah
[00:03:19] Hugh Massie: And what we learned is that when people are under pressure, that's where they revert back to. It's also their natural zone as far as talents are concerned. So for a person operating in a way in their comfort zone, but also in their zone, potentially for excellence, the more that they can be operating in their natural strengths, the better. And so when you take that to leadership, leaders need to understand what their natural hardwired behaviors are so they can operate in their zone and outperform, but they also need to know that for their teams as well. And to be able to get every person in the in the right slot or put, you know, round pegs in round holes, getting the right people on the bus as Jim Collins said.
[00:04:06] So that's the genesis of it. So, you know, for a leader we have our set of talents. And we need to learn how to manage those to be able to manage others, and to lead others. And that's really what the book is about in terms of outlining what all the particular talents are.
[00:04:25] Now, each of us is different and we have a different mix of them, and it's not right or wrong. It is who you are and how do you step up and take your talents and make the most of yourself. But also understand that if you overplay the strengths that come with your talents they will be what we call struggles, not weaknesses. They only become a weakness if you don't address the blind spot and allow it to continue on.
[00:04:56] Nicole: Yeah, and in the very first page, chapter 1, page 3, Hugh has a quote from is it Fabienne Fredrickson? Am I saying that right? Correct me if I'm wrong. That's right. Okay. Well, it says here, "The things that you are passionate about are not random. They are your calling," and she goes on to talk about calling and that's one of my favorite things to talk about is this idea of calling, like you are hardwired to do a certain thing in this life. And you call it the unique birth of the DNA behavior. And I absolutely love how you talk about that in the book. And then you go on to share that there are eight different factors and correct me if I'm wrong, but everything's on kind of a Likert scale. Is that right?
[00:05:39] Hugh Massie: Yeah, everything's on a continuum. So that would be one way of putting it. So you can be on the left hand side. So let's say the first one is the command factor. If you're on the right hand side, like I am, that's more take charge, Nicole. If you're on the left hand side, that's more cooperative, where you've sort of got a desire to fit in. And we all fall somewhere on that Richter scale, if you want to, if you want to call it. But I think one of the things we try to do is to address the fact that a person who, let's say they are like me, is take charge-- that comes with a set of strength and struggles. But the other side being the more cooperative person, that comes with strength and struggles too.
[00:06:21] Nicole: Yeah, that's right.
[00:06:22] Hugh Massie: And to look at to make it more empowering rather than saying somebody is high command or high take charge. That's sounding a little bit over the top. When we've all got a place somewhere on that, that brings a set of strengths and struggles.
[00:06:36] Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. And before we get into each one of these traits and these fact-- or I guess there are 16 traits and eight factors. Do I have my story right? Okay. Yeah. Cause I've been like,
[00:06:49] Hugh Massie: There's a trait for each side of the factor.
[00:06:51] Nicole: Right, right. Okay. So I love this. But I want to just say that you say in chapter one, which I think is so important, is that self assessment is really important. So, why should a leader take a look in the mirror? And, in my own practice I have my own coaching methodology and it's S.H.I.N.E. And the S in shine is self awareness. And so I think the number one thing a leader can do is take a real good, hard look in the mirror.
[00:07:15] One of the questions I ask every leader I work with when I coach them is what is it like to experience you. And a lot of the leaders are like, Oh, that's a good question. I'm like, I know. And Hugh Massie's book_ Leadership Behavior DNA: Discovering Natural Talents and Managing Differences_ can really help you take a good look in the mirror.
[00:07:36] Hugh Massie: Yeah. I think what you're doing in your practice, Nicole, is, and we would say the same at DNA behavior, it's so important for this all to start with the leaders and being very specific, it starts with the CEO.
[00:07:52] Nicole: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[00:07:52] Hugh Massie: I said to one the other day, if you're not prepared to go through this yourself, and then talk to your team about your report and what this is for you and how you lead, then we shouldn't be bothering going any further. Because, you know, his goal was to build a more connection based culture. It can't be well, the team needs to become more connective, but I'm okay at it already. That doesn't work. This has got to start at the top to be authentic.
[00:08:19] Nicole: Yeah. And that old adage, lead by example, that's still a good one, isn't it, Hugh?
[00:08:25] Hugh Massie: It is. And, you know, we use the term there in the book, leaders go first and that is so important, in terms of being authentic and because that's what, you know, at the end of the day, I think your team knows everyone's, if they're human, we all know that everybody's got some flaws and are not going to be perfect every day, but if you can own up to the strength and struggles, be real about it and have open conversations about it, people are going to respect you a lot more; becoming approachable is going to become possible; there's going to be some forgiveness involved; and what I call psychological safety. That's really why I'm actually in or in this game is to see psychologically safe workplaces get built.
[00:09:07] Nicole: Yeah, I can't think of anything better to do. And you know, the other thing I love in here is that you say, here's the bottom line, when you grow as a person, you're actually going to have more influence, better relationships, and you'll help others reach their full potential. That's on page 16. I highlighted it. I thought that's exactly right.
[00:09:26] Hugh Massie: And that's what a leader needs to do. Isn't it, Nicole?
[00:09:29] Nicole: A hundred percent. Absolutely. And you all define strengths as talents that flow out of us by default. And then again, I just want to highlight what Hugh's already said, but I didn't want you to miss it. Is that when that strength is overused or overdone or too much of a good thing, you guys call it a struggle. Is that right?
[00:09:46] Hugh Massie: That's what we, yeah, that's it.
[00:09:48] Nicole: Okay. Very good. All right. So we're going to do, we're going to let you do a little self assessment as you listen to the podcast today, and you can actually take an assessment, can't you, Hugh? Where can they go take the assessment if they want to do that?
[00:10:01] Hugh Massie: It can be done through our website, but the way we have it set up at the moment if anybody just wants to email me at hugh.massie@dnabehavior.com, I'll get you set up to do it in the website.
[00:10:13] Nicole: Okay. Fantastic. Cause I know everybody's like, well, how do I do it? How do I take it? All right. Very good. So we've talked about kind of the strengths and the struggles. Let's dive into the command factor and you've already alluded to the fact that on one side is I'm take charge and the other side is cooperative. I'm going to say I'm with you, Hugh. I'm a take charge gal. I gotta, I gotta admit. Yeah. So can you share with us the two sides of the, of those traits?
[00:10:39] Hugh Massie: So the take charge people, if we start on that side, like to set the agenda, they like to, you know, in a way define the vision, set the course, where are we going to go? They tend to talk a bit more directly or bluntly. And can be quite self reliant at getting things done. So they're prepared to work independently. And then when you go to the other side, to the more cooperative person, they like to fit in, they're going to look for consensus in, in the direction. Group based discussion or group based work, and they're going to be more diplomatic, in their communication. And the struggle of that is they could sugarcoat stuff too much and not just not get out there and say it. And so they're the two opposites and we've all got certain levels of strength in, in all of that. And I suppose the more you are one way or the other, the less adaptable you're going to naturally be.
[00:11:33] That's the key thing. I think when you sort of said before, Nicole, how others experience you? We can all think at times, particularly if we're strong on one of these factors, that we're adapting and we've become more relational, for example, or we're not acting big in the room, but that may not be what others are feeling, you know? And so if you are extreme, it's hard to dial it back all the time.
[00:11:55] Nicole: Yeah, and you know, earlier, the quote that I got off of page 16, I think too is, like you said, if the CEO goes first or the VP or whatever level you're in and you say, look, I am over the top. You know, and you can show them your scale. I think it helps everybody to give you, that, that grace that like, no, he or she is hardwired to be this way. And so I don't need to take it personally. I think it's a really great thing to be able to show people how you fall out on it.
[00:12:25] Hugh Massie: I think, and I want to emphasize this, and this is, this is something that we've found very important, that when people come to realize this is their natural hardwired behavior, or it's somebody else's, and that is the way they are, a lot more grace can be given. And I just wanted to pick up on what you said. It's easier to provide some forgiveness or then to have an honest discussion, say, okay, we need to dial it down here. As opposed to it becoming out a little bit more as an accusatory type
[00:12:54] Nicole: Yes.
[00:12:55] Hugh Massie: conversation. But what it doesn't mean is that as a leader or as a team member, that your strength is an excuse for bad behavior.
[00:13:06] Nicole: Oh, a hundred percent.
[00:13:07] Hugh Massie: Or to be manipulative with it or to say, well, that's me and I'm not going to change, you change. That's not right.
[00:13:14] Nicole: That's right. Cause the old self awareness kicks in and then you have to like self manage. And I always tell people, once you learn this stuff about yourself, whatever assessment you're taking, it's kind of like, now you're on the hook because
[00:13:27] Hugh Massie: You are on the hook and it, you know, and really at the end of the day, I think what we're trying to build or grow is emotionally intelligent leaders. And the starting point is awareness of yourself, but then it's being aware of others and then how do you adapt. But you can't adapt to others if you're not aware of yourself.
[00:13:47] Nicole: That is 100 percent true. And now that I'm looking at the scale, it's actually on a bell curve. Is that correct?
[00:13:54] Hugh Massie: It's on a bell curve.
[00:13:55] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:13:56] Hugh Massie: If you're in the middle of it, so what we would say-- when you guys who are listening to this go in and complete it-- you get a score between 45 and 55 or in the middle level of the population with it, you'll be quite flexible in that behavior. So you could move between being take charge and cooperative and fitting in. But when you get to a higher, what we call T score or population weighted score, the behavior becomes quite fixed and that's when it starts to be harder to change it. And we probably-- out of the eight factors that we're going to talk about-- most people, other than what we call the adapters, have two areas where it's harder for them to change. That could be their greater strengths as well, but it will be harder to change.
[00:14:39] Nicole: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And in your, in the book, and if you're familiar with statistics, it says on page 70, one third of the population will score on the left, one third on the right, and one third in the mid range, right? So I love that too. Okay. Cooperative and take charge. The thing that I've been learning, uh, you know, on all the years I've been studying personality and traits and that kind of thing is that usually two leaders that are strong on one side of the bell curve and strong on the other side of the bell curve, they could either be worst enemies or they could be so well together that they balance each other out. What are your thoughts on that?
[00:15:14] Hugh Massie: Well, I agree with that. I think that if let's say you've got to take charge leaders they're together, they're going to most of the time talk roughly the same language, the same style. They're going to be both reasonably forceful. They can both have direct conversations, see the world roughly through the same lens, but the problem becomes is each needs their territory to lead. They need an area where they can lead and grow. And in a way, I suppose, direct others to do things or to, you know, to set the agenda. And that's when the clash can come. Now, it gets worse if there's some differences in the other areas of their behavior. Let's say they both take charge, but one is a risk taker and one's more cautious or anchored, then you start to see a difference and that's when it will get really awkward. In, in that type of setting, cause no two people are exactly the same.
[00:16:10] Nicole: That's exactly right. Yeah. While we do have commonalities, that DNA, it is one person, right? Okay. So, here's what I love about your book, Hugh, is that you've got quick coach notes at the end of every chapter that really help people say, okay, this is how my assessment turned out. And then here's my ideal work environment.
[00:16:30] Here's how you can connect with me as a take charge and how to manage somebody who's a take charge, which could be challenging. And so I think, so I think that this book can really help a leader like you say manage themselves well first and then begin to work with their teams.
[00:16:49] Hugh Massie: Yeah. And I think, you know, what I've learned over my 25 years with this is that the clearer you are about yourself-- and you will constantly get clarity with every interaction you get, have, every team you work with, who you lead, situation you're in, including at home-- the more clarity you have for yourself, the easier it's going to be to objectively see others and to manage this. You know, it's not just something that happens all overnight. It's a constant work in progress.
[00:17:15] Nicole: Yeah. And you said it's situational just a minute ago so I got a whole Paul Hersey moment in my head. You know, he wrote the book Situational Leadership a long time ago. And I think the other thing too is once you really get close to this information that Hugh's sharing in his book, which is amazing-- _Leadership Behavior DNA_, everybody-- the more you can be a situational leader, there's a time to be the cooperative leader. And there's a time to go, wait, hold on. I'm going to take over right now because this is serious or whatever, or we're going the wrong direction. Right? So I think there's times to put those different traits on.
[00:17:52] Hugh Massie: There are and there are different stages of a business, um, levels of a business, or you can be a CEO of a business, but on a board of another business where you're taking more of a support role, but you're on the board, you know, there's different settings we all have to operate in. And I think just recognizing that, but also knowing where you stand or where your behaviors are going to put you, allows you to do that better and to be the situational based leader. So you don't just turn up if you take charge and be a bull in the China shop the whole time.
[00:18:22] Nicole: Right. And we've all experienced him or her, Hugh and Nicole.
[00:18:26] Hugh Massie: Yeah. Yeah. And that's an important point too, Nicole. There's some hims and hers. You show up that way.
[00:18:32] Nicole: The bulls and the, what the cows? Oh, I don't like that. Let's just keep the bulls. All right. So let's get, let's go. Let's talk about the next factor. So the next factor and every factor has two traits. Let's keep repeating. So we get this in our brains. So the people factor is the next one. And you say on here this factor indicates a person's openness in expression, transparency, and ease in relating to strangers. So tell us a little bit about the two traits that make up the people factor.
[00:19:04] Hugh Massie: So the outgoing person is your natural extrovert. They can walk into a room, connect with all the people in the room. They come across as enthusiastic. They're talking a lot. They're very social people. You know, it's hard to rein them back in those group settings. They like to be out of the office with groups of people going to conferences, community meetings, that type of thing. And a really extreme one, they'll never stop talking. They will hold court you know, for a long time.
[00:19:33] And then there's those who are on the other side who are more reserved, and they're going to come across as more serious. You're probably going to see it in the facial features where they don't give away as much. So they're playing their cards close to their chest. They're not as communicative. They're thinking, they're reflecting. And they're all strengths as well. And I think this is one where you know, then they're the introverts. This is where people who are the outgoing think, well, you know, they're the ones that should be the leaders because they're good with people, et cetera. Then the introverts on the other side may not be as confident about their abilities with people, but they're very good at surmising situations, thinking about strategies, because what comes with that is being quite planned and structured. And they're not going to give away as much emotionally of their power. I think that's a risk for the outgoing people is they can have tremendous power through their ability to connect with people, but by getting emotional at the wrong time, they can give away a lot of power. And this factor is a big one. They're all big, really. They're all equally big in how they play out. And you will really feel the outgoing person in the room if they're also take charge. They're the heavy duty influencer. When those two come together,
[00:20:46] Nicole: Bam.
[00:20:47] Hugh Massie: Yeah, bam, there's a lot of wanting to, you know, lead the show, be out in the front and doing a lot of talking. And you don't notice it as much with the person that's more reserved. When they decide to speak up, then they'll speak up.
[00:21:02] Nicole: Right. And it's like those old E. F. Hutton commercials, you know? When that reserved, well thought out, planning person speaks, everybody's like, what did he say? Wait, say it again. We missed it. You know, we might've been distracted by the very strong outgoing person. Yeah. And you know, here's the thing about a lot of the introverts I know, is that they are very good one on one, you know, they're great mentors, great coaches, fabulous to do a one on one with, to get advice. So I, I think they just have a different set of people skills.
[00:21:34] Hugh Massie: Yeah, I think that's a big thing is that being interactive
[00:21:39] Nicole: Mm hmm.
[00:21:40] Hugh Massie: is very different to, uh, in a one on one setting than being the group based person that wants to connect with every person. If
[00:21:49] Nicole: Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Yeah. Okay. So that is our people factor. Alright, so that's factor number two. So are you writing this down? Are you figuring out what you are? Did you go to Hugh's website like he gave you? Alright, so factor one is the command factor, factor two is the people factor, and now we're on to the patience factor. So I will be shocked if it's a third, a third, and a third. That's a joke. Because I don't, I'm not sure anybody is patient anymore, but let's take a look at this. So we have the patience factor and it's got two traits and it is the patient trait and the fast paced trait. And so far I'm over to the right every time, it looks like. All right. Let's take a look at that one. The patience factor, this factor indicates a person's natural pace, desire for stability or a need for harmony. Actually, I'm on the left on this one. Okay. So,
[00:22:43] Hugh Massie: If you you're take charge, you're generally fast paced.
[00:22:46] Nicole: Yeah, that's me. Okay. All right. So tell me what I already know about myself and still need to fix. Go ahead.
[00:22:54] Hugh Massie: So, Nicole, the people that are high on the patient trait on the right hand side of this one tend to be more compassionate. They're the feelings people, there's a desire there for stability. They're much more sensitive, generally approachable, very friendly people. They don't really like conflict. That would be something that's you know, an issue for some leaders, that are in this, in that they don't want to head first into the conflict type conversations and put things off. And then you've got on the other side. The fast paced people that are far more rational, look at the world logically, they're going to deal in numbers, you know, the facts, ask a lot of questions, be quite challenging and objective about situations. And they will likely be at times impatient, so the fuse is potentially low when they're tested out or stressed out, and can lead them to, they could be good at making quick decisions, but they could also launch into making decisions to get results too quick.
[00:23:56] Nicole: That's right. And create false starts and chaos.
[00:23:59] Hugh Massie: Absolutely. I think I know where you're going on that one. And absolutely that's going on in in places that we maybe wish it wasn't. But you know, I think that the thing is, and that's probably playing on what you were just alluding to, is we start talking about culture in an organization and you want to build a relationship culture in the organization. Because at the end of the day, every person wants to feel that they've been connected with, they want to feel heard, they want to feel safe when they're at work, be able to express their ideas. That's gonna naturally come from the the patient person. Cause they're going to build naturally a relationship culture. Whereas, based on our work, 70 percent or so of leaders are on that fast paced side. And they are not natural, they're good at getting bottom line results and profits and cutting costs and firing people and all that sort of stuff.
[00:24:56] Nicole: Doesn't that sound terrible? I'm good at firing people?
[00:25:01] Hugh Massie: Well, there seems to be a lot of that going on right now, but,
[00:25:03] Nicole: Yes
[00:25:04] Hugh Massie: but maybe without thinking through the consequences of that, how it's communicated, how others feel about it. So it's not creating a psychologically safe environment. I think we all accept in the world that some of that has to happen.
[00:25:17] Nicole: Of course.
[00:25:18] Hugh Massie: But at the end of the day, if you're going to be successful as a leader, you have to be able to build a great employee experience. And then ultimately that flows through to the client experience. The relational people who are the patient people tend to be able to do that better. Their challenge is actually just getting the results and being hard enough at the right time. And the results driven people-- and I'm on the results driven side-- need to know how to modify it at the right times.
[00:25:47] Nicole: Exactly.
[00:25:48] Hugh Massie: To engage people. And this is sort of where the big balancing act for a leader plays itself out.
[00:25:54] Nicole: That's right. And the thing is, what's so ironic about getting results is you can only get results through people. I mean, if you bottom line it, you know,
[00:26:03] Hugh Massie: to bring, you've got to bring the right people along. You've got to keep them engaged and make them feel comfortable to ask questions, to, you know, to raise issues, to innovate. I think this is where a lot of leaders miss out is that they come in tough, but they also need innovation and risk taking in their organizations for it to grow. And if you don't allow that to happen, your business is history. And I'm watching some companies right now, bigger companies right now that have come in hard against their employees. And a lot of good people are going to leave. They're not going to want to be there. And it filters through to the clients and the customers, they
[00:26:43] Nicole: That's right. Your top talent leaves and there goes your top customers too, because those top talent were taking care of the top customers.
[00:26:50] Hugh Massie: Or if people stay on who are disgruntled, that flows through to how they serve people. And it's a vicious cycle. One of the things that we do when we step into an organization to help it build this people-centric culture is ask the leaders, which areas do you think your clients would be happy with the business right now and maybe unhappy and there'll be quite a diverse opinion of that. And what's the risk to your business of that? Once you start looking at that, that's going to bring you back to where the employee disengagement is and where you need to solve the problem. And that may not be where the leaders think the problem is.
[00:27:27] Nicole: Yeah. And here's the thing, the whole time you're talking about this... I've got a program, it's called Vibrant Employee Performance Management, and I think it's one of the most valuable but underutilized concepts is to sit down with your people and develop them, which takes patience. You know, like you're saying, I can be good at firing people, get a new guy, cut the costs, do all that stuff. Which that's just a decision, really, to do all those things. But to sit down and work with an individual one on one, being patient, mentoring, coaching, teaching, training, hearing their stories, helping them navigate ways forward to achieve goals. That takes a great deal of patience. I think it's so essential.
[00:28:11] Hugh Massie: It does. And you have to, to be a leader and you want to lead people and teams and grow your business, as you said before, Nicole, it's going to happen through people, you have to really want to do those things. And some leaders are naturally good at doing that and what I call stepping across the aisle and having those engaging conversations and others aren't as great at it, but if that's not your natural sweet spot, then bring someone in the business to help you do that.
[00:28:39] Nicole: Right. And that's what I was saying before about like a leader who balances out your, Whichever way you are on
[00:28:45] Hugh Massie: Yeah. The results in relationships. Yeah.
[00:28:48] Nicole: Yeah. So good. Okay. So I think I have more patience than I thought, 'cause I love developing people. All right, so number four, factor number four is structure.
[00:28:57] Announcer: Are you ready to build your vibrant culture? Bring Nicole Greer to speak to your leadership team, conference, or organization to help them with their strategies, systems, and smarts to increase clarity, accountability, energy, and results, your organization will get lit from within. Email her at Nicole at vibrant culture. com and be sure to check out Nicole's TEDx talk at vibrant culture. com.
[00:29:22] Nicole: Okay. And so structure there's two traits. The first trait is the planned trait, and the second trait is the spontaneous trait, and so the structure factor indicates a person's need for structure, concern for details, and a desire to prepare. So talk to us a little bit about the structure factor.
[00:29:43] Hugh Massie: So a person that's high on that structure factor being, being very planned. We'll come across as very organized. They're going to research things. They've got a lot of desire for information. They're going to be quite analytical in their approach, very good at laying out the operational plan and the Gantt plan with all the, with all the steps and timelines and things in there...
[00:30:05] Nicole: Love project management software.
[00:30:08] Hugh Massie: Yeah, project management software, they're going to, you know, be quite focused on ensuring things happen within timelines. Measuring the results. That's the strength they bring. They can get too rigid about it though and not realize that the world doesn't work in a straight line and things happen, and therefore that's a challenge for them to manage. And if they're more reserved type person, which generally they are, this goes with the reserve person, then they can, appear overly serious and sort of controlling with it. In a way their need for their control with information and details is more they don't want to be out of control rather than their having to be in control as a person. If they're that take charge person, then this is where you get a lot of control because they want to lead, but they also don't want to be in any uncomfortable environments as far as not having information, um, and not knowing what's going on.
[00:31:04] So it can get difficult. The spontaneous person's a lot more free flowing. They're a lot more relaxed. If they're a leader, they're going to allow their team to deal with the details and they're going to have a heavy reliance on somebody planned. They're going to make decisions pretty intuitively. And you know, be perceptive in in, in that sense. Now, my view on the world with that is that all of us though, have an intuitive capability if we want to, it's
[00:31:32] Nicole: Oh, yes.
[00:31:33] Hugh Massie: the plan people just need to let some of the detail stuff go to allow their intuition to be heard. But an over reliance on intuition is also a problem in decision making as well, because what's feeding that intuition and what biases are in there is also you know, important to recognize. And there's a lot of research out there now that intuition is not as accurate as you think it is. And having some factual information or enough factual information with your intuition is probably the best place to be. You know, I bring that up because the spontaneous people can't just be allowed to make decisions, particularly as a leader.
[00:32:12] Nicole: Not willy nilly. Right.
[00:32:14] Hugh Massie: Yeah. Without enough facts and work being done.
[00:32:16] Nicole: Right. You do need some KPIs. You do need a report on the market. You got to know what's going on.
[00:32:22] Hugh Massie: But they're going to have a good sense of what to do and not get bogged down and and get on with things. If it's not managed though, if if a spontaneous person doesn't manage themselves properly, they may be chaotic. You know, not get to meetings on time, spontaneously do something else when they should be somewhere else, that type of thing. That will all go on.
[00:32:45] Nicole: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm kind of thinking that maybe, I don't know, you, I'm just getting this little thing, like maybe spontaneous, like it's, there's a little courage there or something like let's try stuff. You know, you're not as risk averse as maybe somebody who's more planned. Does that line up?
[00:33:01] Hugh Massie: Um, not necessarily. I think that the spontaneous person may not worry about all the details and will take a shot at it, but as we'll see later that there are people who take risks and people who are cautious, you'll get, you will get spontaneous people
[00:33:17] Nicole: Ah, that's the risk factor. I see.
[00:33:20] Hugh Massie: So all of these things in a way start to play in together and you'll get some actually some people that are very reserved, very structured or planned. And they're risk takers, but they're gonna be extremely calculated with that risk taking, but they will take the risk. And it's quite interesting 'cause I've seen people that I've thought, well, they're not going to take a risk. And people have said that about me. And they don't realize, yeah, there's a lot, there's just a lot of thinking going on before it happens. And then bang.
[00:33:51] Nicole: Yeah, that's good. All right. I'm loving this. I'm loving this. Okay. And so our next factor is the trust factor. Okay. And so like this one is huge, right? Because
[00:34:03] Hugh Massie: huge.
[00:34:04] Nicole: it's everything. Okay. And so, it's factor number five, the trust factor has two traits. The first trait is the trusting trait and the second one is the skeptical trait. And you say in the book on page 157, the factor indicates a person's ability to naturally trust others. And I love that because trust is two things in my mind, or I've always thought about it this way, is like, am I trustworthy and do I extend trust to others? Or do they have to prove themselves for a long time before I trust them? So there's kind of two, two sides to it in my mind. Tell us what this factor is all about.
[00:34:42] Hugh Massie: Well, there's another side to that.
[00:34:44] Nicole: Okay, bring it. Let's talk about it.
[00:34:47] Hugh Massie: And I think you'll see how this plays out in a second. So if you don't trust yourself, you won't trust others and others won't trust you.
[00:34:57] Nicole: I see suspicious, hesitant, not easily convinced, calculating and guarded.
[00:35:04] Hugh Massie: Yeah. So if we take the trust factor on the right hand side, the higher or stronger side of it is the people who are trusting. They will generally trust themselves, which means they will trust others and they're going to be trusted by others. And that, and they happen to also usually be the patient people that are relationship orientated type people.
[00:35:25] Nicole: Hmm.
[00:35:26] Hugh Massie: They go together. The scores won't be exactly the same, but they generally go together. So a person that's very trusting is likely to be a strong relationship orientated person or relationship builder type person. And, you know, they're the ones that are not going to get bogged down in all the details, are going to allow others to do their work. They're more approachable. As a person and they're going to be more open in conversations.
[00:35:54] Nicole: Yeah,
[00:35:54] Hugh Massie: Yeah. I think what we have to realize is not all of us are that way wired, and then you've got the others on the other side that are skeptical and you could say, well, you know, that's bad. No, being skeptical is a strength in the sense that you might have high powers of discernment, you know, be exacting with the details, checking things out, asking good questions. But if not handled correctly, it will be very crushing in relationships.
[00:36:18] And yeah, even though the people believe it or not, that are more skeptical are the fast paced and take charge people who appear outwardly confident. Internally, they're not as much and particularly around people. And so therefore you know, that's the air and a lot of leaders fall into that side.
[00:36:35] And that's, yeah, it's good because you're, you know, in a way you're watching the house, you're checking, you're making sure the accounts are okay, things aren't being stolen. But if you bring all that mindset to everything, nothing will ever happen. There's got to be some trust somewhere. And that's where the skeptical people have to let go a bit to succeed. And we put this factor in to our system in the second iteration of building the system, because I could see the pattern of people that were trusting and skeptical. And we were always talking about it in training workshops and coaching and, out there in segments of business with sales people and whatnot, that this needed to be there because it's the pillar of everything.
[00:37:19] Nicole: Yeah. What's interesting to me is you say trusting leader qualities, they're motivated to believe and skeptical leader qualities, they're motivated to doubt. I think that's an interesting kind of look at it.
[00:37:34] Hugh Massie: Yeah. So that, and that's the thing, you'll know when you come up against a a skeptical leader, cause they're going to doubt what you say. They're not going to accept it at face value, but does that make you feel good?
[00:37:43] Nicole: Not always, but it goes back to what we were saying before about like, if you know this about your leader, be prepared, he's going to ask you six questions. But when I think about it, cause I think I'm totally on the trusting side. It's going to make me really get my act together, my story together and my data points together so that my leader doesn't have to doubt. And in fact, I think that might even help me not doubt my success.
[00:38:08] Hugh Massie: So that means that, to get around it, that means then that you show up to the leader with the research properly done,
[00:38:13] Nicole: That's right. That's right.
[00:38:14] Hugh Massie: You've considered everything, be prepared to be transparent with him or with her. But I think it's also incumbent on the doubting leader to ask the questions that he or she might want to ask when they're doubting in a more empowering way rather than a cut the ribbons way.
[00:38:32] Nicole: Oh, cut the ribbons way
[00:38:33] Hugh Massie: There are ways in which questions can be asked that are so harsh, you don't even want to contribute to the conversation anymore.
[00:38:41] Nicole: Right. You don't want to trigger the guy's ego or the gal's ego in this process where they feel a need to protect or something, but like, if it's really healthy, I think it's probably good.
[00:38:51] Hugh Massie: And this is where that cycle of trust goes, because if you're the doubting leader and you ask questions the wrong way, and then now the other person doesn't feel like I'm being trusted. Everything shuts down.
[00:39:01] Nicole: That's right. Cause I've worked here 10 years and you don't trust me yet. And all these things go through that person's mind. Right.
[00:39:06] Hugh Massie: But you should also know that you're not going to pull the wool over the eyes of a person that's more skeptical. They're going to figure it out
[00:39:15] Nicole: right,
[00:39:15] Hugh Massie: pretty fast and yeah,
[00:39:18] Nicole: Yeah. And it's also sounding like a little bit like critical thinking or something to me, you know, that doubt is really, I'm not being critical. I'm just doing critical thinking right here, making sure that we're doing the right thing, doing your due diligence.
[00:39:29] Hugh Massie: Intimidating. The thing is, Nicole, it's intimidating
[00:39:32] Nicole: Of course.
[00:39:33] Hugh Massie: for people to receive that. And when you're trying to build an engaging workplace, while you do need to be discerning, to doubt things, to ask questions. You need to do it in a way in which it's going to be empowering and bring out what the right answers are. And if you're going to question others, you've got to allow others to question you or to raise questions and issues as well. And so this is why this is really where the success in the workplace, I think, and in businesses is won or lost right here on this one.
[00:40:03] Nicole: Okay, so y'all don't miss that. He said, that's how they talk in Atlanta, right Hugh? Y'all. So that,
[00:40:08] Hugh Massie: The
[00:40:09] Nicole: trust factor, he's saying that that's the one, you get your report, you turn directly to the trust factor and reach your results. I think that's fantastic. All right, good, good. All right, well we've got two, uh, let's see, we've got three more.
[00:40:23] So we've got the pioneer factor. I love this one. This is the one that, you know, when I think of the word pioneer, these are people going into a new space, doing new things, the innovation and all that. And let's read what it says here. The pioneer factor has two traits. It is being a content versus being a pioneering person or trailblazing versus stable. The factor indicates a person's drive to set ambitious goals and pursue them. Yeah. Talk about that.
[00:40:52] Hugh Massie: Yeah so the pioneering people are your very goal driven people. They're usually quite competitive and they've got a lot of follow through. And I think that for a leader this is a good one in the sense of that, that they want to, you know, push the world forward and get results.
[00:41:08] I think for a salesperson, I always would look at whether the salespeople are pioneering enough, particularly competitive, you know? Do they want to win and make the sales. And so that's where this is important. You'll also see this might show up in the fact that a leader wants to open up new markets, for example or, you know, a new business line. And fill up sales pipelines. And so that's where this pioneering factor comes into play. They generally work pretty hard most of the time. Strong work ethic to achieve goals, whereas the content person is someone that likes the world to, to remain pretty stable, steady. They would rather there wasn't change that they could come to the same place and do the same things. They'd like their community to live in, more life stability, workplace stability. But so me very gifted people,
[00:42:03] Nicole: Mm
[00:42:03] Hugh Massie: uh, are in this one of area of being content. And they might want to achieve a lot of things, but they're going to also want to have work life balance. They're not going to allow themselves to be out of kilter forever. So it doesn't mean they don't have ambition, but it might not show up continuously throughout their life. Whereas the pioneering people are always going to be wanting to achieve something new, I think.
[00:42:26] Nicole: Right. And the thing about work life balance is like, I'm trying to have a career over here and I'm trying to have a family over here, which are both wonderful things to have goals around. Right. And you know, I had an HR director in the way back and she said to me, every company needs some awesome steady eddies. As is that kind of the content thing, you know, she's like people who know their job inside and out, up one side, down the other. They're like, SMEs, they're amazing, but that they want to stay right where they are
[00:42:55] Hugh Massie: Well, I think that if we're in a world today that there is a lot more instability and things are changing faster with new products, AI, et cetera, and it's easy to, as a leader, to step in and change the business, every two years, but you do need some steadiness somewhere.
[00:43:14] Nicole: Yeah, and the places I think about where that's so important is again, the customer can call on the same person that's taking care of them for an extended period of time. There's safety and familiarity and, all those good things that, you know, and all that drives sales too, doesn't it?
[00:43:32] Hugh Massie: Right, and the people that are more content are going to be in the customer support type role. Some of the marketing roles they're going to be the relationship oriented people in the workplace.
[00:43:45] Nicole: Yeah.
[00:43:45] Hugh Massie: Everybody's needed.
[00:43:47] Nicole: Oh, 100%. 100%. Okay. I love that one. All right. Let's talk about factor number seven, the risk factor. Okay. And this is maybe the one, a little bit about courage. Maybe you can help me out here. So, risk factor number seven, or number seven factor is risk. This factor indicates a person's willingness to take risks and their ability to tolerate the consequences. And so we've got cautious on one side and risk taker on the other.
[00:44:16] Hugh Massie: Yeah. So if we start on the right with the risk taker, they're going to tend to be venturesome. They're going to leap off ledges to, to go and do new things. I think that this will be a leader that's Going to back innovation, move the business into a new territory, maybe risk some of the results to build more. They're going to be comfortable with that. Of course, it's a matter of, have they done the research, the analysis, managed to- how they manage their people through all of that, but they're going to be wanting to push forward. There's usually courage you know, involved with it, because there's a consequence of things going wrong and, you know, the risk tolerance part is the ability to live with it. And to be able to manage your emotions to dust yourself off when it doesn't work out and come up with a new solution and move forward, you know.
[00:45:10] Nicole: Yeah. A little resilience too, right?
[00:45:12] Hugh Massie: It's part of being resilient. Whereas the cautious people are a lot more calculated, they're going to be very careful about what risks get taken. They're going to be into risk management. And I think that's where, any leader that is higher on the risk side needs somebody on the other side of them that is able to see risks coming over the horizon and pull them up and say, have we thought about A, B, C, D? And what checks and balances do we have in place? But at the same time, if you're gonna grow, you've gotta take opportunities. That's where the risk taker's gonna do it. But hopefully the cautious person sees that in a sensible way and, and can work their way through it.
[00:45:52] Nicole: Yeah. Cause you're going to need, if you're in manufacturing, you need the safety side of it. You need the, you know,
[00:45:58] Hugh Massie: it.
[00:45:58] Nicole: all of that. Yes, yes, yes. And
[00:46:01] Hugh Massie: You need all of that in the business. And the bigger businesses get that. And this is something we've tracked, the whole financial prudence-- and really comes back to the sensibility in the decision making and how aligned is that to the purpose of the business and the, you know, the financial structure of the business. You need a good element of that as a business grows.
[00:46:20] Nicole: Yeah, it's a whole yin and yang thing we're doing here. Okay. All right, the very last one we've got is factor number eight. So let me just tell you you know, like, okay, tell me again, Nicole. So these are the DNA behavior factors and traits. There are eight factors and 16 traits. All right.
[00:46:37] And so our last one is the creative factor and there's two different traits, the creative trait and the anchored trait. And you say on page 215, this factor reflects a person's capacity to be original, creative, and work with new ideas.
[00:46:56] Hugh Massie: Yeah. So the creative people tend to be the innovators. And I think there's two branches to that, as you alluding to there, that there are people that come up with original ideas. It's sort of where did that come from? Never heard of that before. It's, it's almost like they dreamt it up. Their imagination has brought that to the world. And then you get the other part of it is you get resourceful people or enterprising people that can see two concepts out there or two processes and they put them together and that becomes something new they're able to work around, you know, two existing technologies and make it into a brand new technology that works more efficiently.
[00:47:34] A very high innovator is going to be strong on both , but we do see a lot of people that are one or the other. And that's how creativity shows up. And then there's the right brain element, the people that are a little bit more sensory with this as well, that's there and they allow that right brain to, to come through unimpeded will tend to be the creative people. And then on the other side has got more the anchored people. They're not going to dream up new ideas. They're not going to design new processes, but they're going to be very good at following the established processes and procedures. And going back to organizational stability, you need a good dose of these people in the business. Otherwise you'd be reinventing your business every two minutes. Again, in this.
[00:48:18] Nicole: That's enough new ideas.
[00:48:19] Hugh Massie: And again, in this dynamic world where we've got to come up with new products because technology is driving us into new places, you need the creative people to help you forge that pathway. You've got to back the innovation, so you need some risk taking, but you've also got to keep the business stable and not throwing out what's you know, working well. You can't just throw the baby out with the bath water type stuff all the time. So you, you do need some anchored people as well to follow core processes.
[00:48:50] Nicole: Yeah. A hundred percent. Yeah. And what just bubbled up for me was also quality, right? You know, that's the quality side, right?
[00:48:57] Hugh Massie: control.
[00:48:58] Nicole: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you totally need that. Yeah. So that's amazing. Okay. So, hey, everybody, we have gotten through all eight of these factors. And let's tie a bow on it with this, Hugh. So, the leader goes first, the CEO goes first, and they take the Leadership Behavior DNA. They take the assessment. What's the official title of the assessment? So we get it right.
[00:49:23] Hugh Massie: So what they're going to do is their natural talents assessment, their natural behavior discovery. That's what you're going to do. And then it's going to bring out all the things that we talked about today.
[00:49:32] Nicole: Okay. And then the next step is after the leader does it, then it's like, okay, now I could have my team do it and I can begin-- which, you know, the third part of the book is about I can begin to manage my team using these traits. So will you kind of share with us how a leader might go about doing that?
[00:49:50] Hugh Massie: So the leader goes first, the leader gets their report done. Ideally, there's a conversation they might have say with you, Nicole, or a facilitator. Or can be with me you know, to understand this for themselves. Then their executive team, their C suite team or reports should all go through it.
[00:50:09] And then, and then the leader would discuss that with the facilitator. That's normally how we like to do it. So that the leader now starts to say, oh, gee, my head of sales is this way. That's good. Or I've got a chief of marketing that, yeah, things haven't been working out in marketing. I can now start to see that and, you know, we're going to have to have a conversation so that he or she is the leader can see where the strengths and struggles within the team are and where there might need to be a shift in a team member. Somebody else might need to be hired into a role. You start splitting up roles, that types of things. It all depends on the growth plans, I think, for the business as well. And what's working and not working. And then I would be bringing the team together to have a discussion about all of those things.
[00:50:54] And usually a discussion around the strategy of the business. So it's focused on some things that need to be done and then the profile insights get brought into play there. So, you know, One discussion might be around the growth plans or a discussion might be about actually how are we on people culture right now and what do we need to do to improve you know, the results in the business? And everyone, if they've got different styles, it's going to have a different perspective on that. And so that's where then getting people to share who they are, how they see the world, their strengths and struggles. You know, what their own likability factor is or how that's seen. That helps build the bonds for then the next discussions to be around, well, what decisions are we going to make
[00:51:41] Nicole: I love it.
[00:51:41] Hugh Massie: where that's coming from?
[00:51:43] Nicole: Right. So it's not just, figure out your type. It is figure out your strengths, figure out your struggles, and let's apply this to the strategy to make the company do better and make more money. Did I get that right? Did we?
[00:51:56] Hugh Massie: Right. And I think the ongoing, the ongoing part is this is not a once and done exercise.
[00:52:02] Nicole: No, you make it part of your company DNA, right?
[00:52:06] Hugh Massie: Right. And so the leader needs to, whenever they're going to interact with anybody to go into our system, the DNA web app and say, okay, I'm meeting with Mary today. And, she's this style, this is the way she wishes to be communicated with, which is all spelled out in there. And you need to look, you need to, as a leader adapt, because, in that sense the platinum rule that we talk about of communication there in the book is about how do you adapt your communication to the other person? It's not about communicating on your terms. So, and then how do all the team members do that with each other? And again, the technology can help with that by just logging in and seeing, okay, I've got to deal with our CTO today and he's more of a reflective thinker. He's very planned and structured. How am I going to navigate that?
[00:52:53] Nicole: That's right. That's right. All right. Well, gosh, I could talk to you about this all day long, but here's what you can do. If you want to know more, here's where you can find Hugh. Hugh has a website. It is dnabehavior.com. He's also on the LinkedIn. Just type in his name, Hugh Massie, H U G H, and then the last name is M A S S I E. All right. And then he is also on the Facebook. He's on the Twitter, he's on the Instagram. And then probably what would be great fun is to go over to the YouTube and watch some videos. YouTube is @dnabehavior. So Hugh, it's been a delight to listen to your Sydney accent all the way from Atlanta, Georgia today. And I'm grateful for my book here, for my collection. I think this is fantastic, and I hope everybody will go out and buy it. Thank you so much. so much for being on the show, Hugh.
[00:53:45] Hugh Massie: Thank you, Nicole. Had a great time.
[00:53:47] Nicole: Awesome, all right everybody, go down and click the like button and show Hugh, our Australian friend replanted to Atlanta with a little love note. Write him a little note, say, thank you so much. And then what we'll do in the show notes is we'll put the link so you can go take the assessment. All right, everybody. Great to be with you. And we'll see you next time on the Build a Vibrant Culture podcast.
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