Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
Creativity isn’t tidy—it’s risky, chaotic, and full of surprises. It’s full of breakthroughs and breakdowns, moments of flow and moments of doubt. Join Mishu Hilmy for unfiltered conversations with artists, filmmakers, musicians, and fearless makers who thrive in the unknown, embrace imperfection, and create at the edge of possibility.
This is your front row seat to the self-doubt, unexpected wins, and messy emotional work of making something real. But craft isn’t just about feeling—it’s about problem-solving, process, and the devotion behind mastery.
Subscribe now for weekly episodes that celebrate the unpredictable, the playful, and the deeply human side of making things. Join the mailing list at mischiefpod.com
Email anytime at podcast@ohhmaybe.com and follow us @mischiefpod
Welcome to Mischief in Mastery where we embrace the ups, downs, and all around uncertainty of a creative life and that steady and sometimes not so steady journey toward expertise. Each episode we talk candidly with people I know, people I don't know, folks who produce, direct, write, act, do comedy, make art, make messes, and make meaning out of their lives. You will hear guests lay out how they work, what they're thinking about, where they get stuck, and why they snap out of their comfort zones and into big, bold,
risky moves. So, if you're hungry for honest insights, deep dives into process philosophies and practical tips, plus maybe a little mischief along the way, you're in the right place. For more, visit mischiefpod.com. Hello everyone, it's Nmeshu and welcome back. Hi there, welcome to Mischief and Mastery. Today we're talking with Kyle Leland-Colerton.
who's a Chicago born filmmaker whose early start as a PA on Wanted launched a decade working on major studio sets while editing branded content for the Cubs, Blackhawks, and many, many more. He's made nearly 30 short films and music videos and his award winning web series, Hammersmith has taken home over 20 accolades, including best series at the 2023 LA Web Fest and being screened at the Festival de Cannes in 2018. Yeah, the Cannes Film Fest. Very fun.
web series. If you haven't checked it out, please have a watch. Very funny. So yeah, Kyle and I, we've known each other for, I think, six, seven years. I believe we met right before the lockdown. And we talk about creative momentum and the difficulty between making decisions around editing for others, doing work for others versus writing for yourself, and how to finally say no and focus on what you want to do, which for Kyle is feature filmmaking. We also chat about directing, procrastination, and that delightful
Mishu Hilmy (01:54)
never-ending fear of creating something that might not measure up. if you relate to those things or interested in, please stick around and listen. As for Kyle, you can follow him at kyle underscore Leland underscore. I'll underscore. I'll have that on the show notes as well as check out the third annual screen time, which is Thursday, May 29th at 6 PM. You can get your tickets in the link. I'll have that in the show notes.
and that's, I believe, produced by Mixed Media and Kyle is also helping out there. It's great, local Chicago, 90 minutes of short film. So check that out. Without further ado, please enjoy our chats. Me and Kyle Eulens.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (02:39)
I mean, for months now, I've been wanting to put all focus into writing. Yeah, I have two different features that I want to make in the next few years. So I kind of just want to put all effort into that because it's, you can only make so many short films and then until you realize it's not gonna be.
You know, create that next step, in your career. It's kind of, you know, features is the only thing that's going to do that. so yeah, I've been putting, I've been, you know, aiming at putting all of my energy into writing, but still it's just, I eventually have to learn to say no to editing projects or helping other people's, helping friends on their ideas and stuff. or their projects, you know, right, right now I'm mostly.
you
Kyle Leland Cullerton (03:34)
doing editing. So I'm hoping to get these last couple projects kind of, you know, in the can and then I can just put all my effort into writing and just say no to everything else for a little bit. That's my hope. Yeah. Yeah.
I think it's also tough. I love editing and editing is so satisfying, especially if you're doing it for a friend or you're getting paid or there's a project that's fairly interesting. It's nice problem solving input now, but it's immediate feedback of like, that cut doesn't work. You can't use this sequence.
Yeah, it is kind of, yeah, I mean, think, I'm not sure who said, maybe it was like Francis McDormand who said it, who was saying like, editors make the best directors just because it informs so much, especially when you're, even when you're writing, like when you're thinking about the idea or outlining, you're like, you're thinking about what type of stuff, you know, isn't gonna make the final cut, what type of stuff, how to jump into a scene at the most, you know, interesting moment, all that type of stuff, yeah.
Yeah, I think about that all the time. Like when I'm writing, I like I'll finish the page and go, yeah, third of that's if I were the editor editing this page, like I got the footage. I'm like, none of it. Right. Yeah.
You're like this is just gonna be a look between these two characters and that's gonna cut to this scene, you know, yeah
Mishu Hilmy (04:55)
Yeah.
But and also it's sometimes it's like well sometimes something might not make the final cut But it might be good for the actors to say that yeah before You cut in you know just to have them build up the scene in their you know internal lives of the characters
Are you having challenges like getting to the writing like is it the distractions of the shiny object of editing or other things and you're like Man, I'm just not sitting down and doing the two minutes a day or you
Yeah, no, I never imagined myself to be a writer. never thought I was... It was probably because in school, I hated writing. I loved, you know, choosing the topic I was going to write about or, you know, that type of stuff. But the act of writing has always just been a fearful, you know, hurdle. And so that's just kind of what's been burnt into my, you know, my psyche.
But I love outlining so much, know, and so I could just outline for decades before actually sitting down and doing the writing. Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (06:31)
Right, like, there's like a, yeah, there's a fear, but like, what's like, kind of what's the fear? Like you have the outline and now you're sitting in front of final draft or whatever software you're using. And is it that you're having like a fourth grade teacher in the back of your head being like, you can't fucking spell this piece of shit. Your ideas are like, what's the fear? Like there's a save as button, like save as, like, all right, I'll save this as 1.1. This scene sucks, I'll save it as 1.2 and then move on and let it go. So like, what are you, like, what do you notice tends to be like the fear point?
Well, one of it could be that kind of that teacher aspect of just not being like an intellectual enough like, you know, I love to, you know, talk about art and talk about craft and do all those things. yeah, part of me thinks like, well, I'm not as well read as, you know, Aaron Sorkin and stuff. So, know, yeah. Am I at that stage? Am I ready for that yet?
But I think most of it is just good old fashioned procrastination. It's just, I have all these other things that I want to get. It's the classic, as soon as I finish my to-do list, then I'll do the one big thing that I want to do. so that's why right now my biggest hurdle is just saying no to everything else.
Yeah, think like, you know, flipping things around helps of like, I know I feel the least anxious when I've tried to just get in like two minutes at some point in the day, and then I can like relax. But yeah, the pro you know, I like to like the artists who I wrote procrastination is just another name for fear, as well as like Stephen Pressfield's The War of Art, you know, resistance, like procrastination is just another form of resistance. So it's like, yeah, you have a to do list, but there's also something like
All right, Kyle, like why like you're not putting this you're not prioritizing. This is like the main thing you want to be doing right now. But you're like, no, I'm going to I'm going to do this. It's just like I think there's a degree of like probably fear. That's what I'm at least projecting on to.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (08:35)
No, I mean, I actually have, have liked, following, following your stuff on social media and just like hearing your, your, kind of strategies of tackling writing where you're just like, it's two minutes a day is what you, you aim for. But yeah, like something like that would be, yeah, like two or 10 minutes or five minutes a day. Like that's something that, that I should just, you know, write out on a big piece of paper and tape it onto my door. to, yeah.
Like, mean, like I've been stuck on like ADHD talk with like demand avoidance and like navigating the relationship of like if something feels like a demand, what's sort of the impulse to avoid it. But I remember reading John Acuff's All It Takes Is A Goal, I think last year, and it's a lot of like solid wisdom or insights there. But one of the things around goals is like there's three types of activities. There's like the binary yes or no, like did you take a shower today?
Yes or no, that's like a binary goal where it's easy to go yes or no. And then there's the time goals. Did you write for 10 minutes? Did you write for 15 minutes? Did you write for an hour? There's a time goal. And then there's the quantity. You know, did you write 50 pages? Did you write 10 sentences? Did you, you know, a text five friends? Did you post three pieces of social media? So those are like the three types. And I learned for me, the quantity type when it comes to writing like
creates too much anxiety and avoidance. Cause I'm like, I don't want to write three paragraphs. I don't want to write three sentences. I don't want to write one page. I think time has been a little bit better, but honestly I might play around with the yes or no. Did you write today? Yes. That's good enough. Like, did you write an email that counts as writing? Did you write your journal? Yes. So if I, you know, check enough yes, no boxes over time, then I can maybe upgrade it to like,
Did you write for one minute, five minutes, 45 minutes? But I know for me, like pages don't, I can't do page count.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (10:34)
No, I think that makes a lot of sense too and I think I'm similar. But so when do you ask yourself these questions? Like do you have it set up that you...
Yeah, it's like that intentionality. I journal every night so that that usually helps me create that space to go like, what is this? I also try to do free writing or brainstorming usually at least once a day, but the past few weeks it's been like every three or four days, to be honest, like 10 minutes and I'll just write. right. Like, for example, I was sometimes I'll just talk to Chad GVT and I'll be like, based on all the questions I've asked you over the past year, what do you think my biggest challenges are or problems are?
and GPT is like, you seem to like a lot of things and you have a hard time prioritizing what to do. like knowing, I mean, that's kind of like a super thing, but it's nice to be, have it reflected back and think, okay, I want to edit. I'm like trying to teach myself to venture resolve, trying to write a script, trying to do a podcast, trying to post stuff, the media stuff, trying to socialize. it's like, this is an obscene amount of like dumb stuff to do or not dump stuff, but just like stuff to do. like one thing I've been trying the past month was
Monday, Wednesday, Friday, that's all podcast related. Tuesday, Thursday, that's DaVinci Resolve. And maybe the weekend is, you know, social media or the script. I let, like, I was working on a little script feature in, at the end of December and start of January and I got 30 pages in and I just wasn't feeling it. So I'm putting that on pause to focus on say this and that, but I think that's been helping like to be a little bit more thematic of when to do what.
and how to track what I'm doing in.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (12:09)
Yeah, no, I, I, I mean, I think it's like, it's, it, seems that you're, you're kind of your skillset does seem somewhat good at doing that. Like I could, I could never do that. Like I have a bunch of different, you know, I have like a, like two different short films and like five feature film ideas that I'm constantly adding little bits to in my mind or in my notes and stuff. But like to actually accomplish.
something of substance, I have to not be doing anything else for like, I mean, at least that week or like at least that month where it's like, need to, if I want to actually, you know, write that pilot script that I'd need to finish, it's like, I like eventually, you know, go up to a, you know, a family, you know, cottage in another state and just seclude myself. And like, I have to not do anything and just.
And then I eventually get all my work done, you know, in probably like a, 10 hour straight sequence where I ended up just, you know, kind of like a throw up draft where you just kind of, you kind of do it all then. But it's like, I, I spend so much time worrying about it and thinking about it. And then I just do it one day, you know, which I've heard some, can't remember which filmmakers, you know, have done that, but I've heard that there are.
You know, there's, there are obviously there's different ways of getting your writing done and there's everybody has a different, style, that's, that's kind of what, what I slowly noticed, but it's kind of similar to where it's like, I need to choose which idea I want to put all of my effort into.
Yeah, right. It's that that thing of commitment because I think in terms of styles, like any process is fine. Like I'm not going to like like what works for me works for me right now. And that might change. Like, you know, when I was 20, I could sit down and write for three hours. Now I just can't. I can barely, you know, do 15 minutes because of all the whatever, know, is pulling my attention.
Mishu Hilmy (14:09)
But I remember, I think they had those styles, those processes are equally valid. I believe Cal Newport's Deep Work refers to, I think what your style might be considered like monastic, which is you, you prefer, or right now you like having seven days or five days or 30 days. And it's like the singular focus versus something that's more hybrid or something that's more piecemeal. But they're all kind of like, I think he had like three types of monastic and I don't remember the other two. But if that's working for you, but then it's the thing of like the integrity of, all right.
the it's March 2nd, I can commit and say March 2nd, you know, five out of seven days of week, my intention is focused on this script versus right now it's like, I'll get to it. I get to it. Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's I mean that's that's literally where I am right now It's like I have I have two projects that I need to edit or three three projects I so I'm like my plan is This week I'm gonna just do like these three last three edits and then they will be done and then next week on Monday I'm gonna drive to Michigan and just focus on this focus on this writing, but there's but but
That date was supposed to be a month ago, you know, the first time. So there's a good chance that, you know, I get, you know, notes back on one of these edits and they're like, yeah, this is great. We just need to do this. Like, oh, and then I need to export it. Oh, then I need to do all these different versions of it. So then it becomes another week.
Yeah, yeah, it's like reflecting is that is that working for you then not to judge it, but it's yeah.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (15:39)
No, I would love to start doing that, like the complete opposite strategy where I just write for 10 minutes each day. That should be so simple. It should be so doable. And maybe I will do it one of these days.
Or experiment. don't know, like whatever, whatever ultimately works. But to me, it's like the boundary thing of that's the hard thing about sort of that freelance editing work of like getting random gigs is the boundaries are easier to become porous of like, I was excited to start this thing. And then you just get an email. hey, also, I know you just wrapped up this final picture lock. But my friends doing this thing can I, you know, send him your email and you're like, Sure. Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, right. course. and like getting, getting paid is kind of important in life, but, luckily the, the projects that I'm working on now are also like, they're, narrative, creative, independent projects that I'm also, producing. So it's like, you know, it's not this horrible, you know, soulless work that I'm getting sucked into. is stuff.
that, which is, which is another type of, you know, yes, that I've gotten better at or a better type of know that I've gotten better at where I'm like, if I'm going to spend all my time doing this, then it's, you know, I want to be a producer on it. it's something that will be high quality and will be successful in where it needs to go.
it's like two forms of integrity, right? Because there's the integrity of I believe in a degree of security and financial responsibility. So like you're, you're honoring your sense of integrity of getting those gigs and getting that work. And at the same time, maybe the other part of integrity, like maybe creative integrity, or your soul's integrity, or the integrity of your curiosity isn't being fully met. But it's like neither right nor wrong. It's just like, but my balance is out of whack. Like right now it's like, I'm just not
Mishu Hilmy (17:36)
I'm not committing to the thing that I want to commit a little bit more to. And that's when I get like the most sort of disappointed myself. Like, shoot. I'm just not balanced right now. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Because like the balance that I'm that I'm hoping for in the future to get these these bigger projects, you know, off my off my list is in order to to achieve those ones at their highest form. I do need to have these other, you know, steps out of the way. These other. Yeah, like like working on a short film that does really well.
And helps these connections will eventually help the bigger projects that I'm that I need to spend my time on. So it's kind of kind of, it's just, just more, um, yeah, more, more setup for, um, for the, for the later payoff that I need to put all my time into. yeah.
Are you so like you've been doing some editing and are you also is directing also kind of like one of those client things as well? Are you putting directing in a back burner to sort of peel away from editing to focus on the next, you know, the more longer form writing pieces?
Yeah, well, definitely the things that I'm that I'm writing or the bigger projects that I'm that I'm You know hoping to finish in the next, know coming months are things that I am also approaching from a director's perspective not not Strictly like I I could absolutely, you know If somebody, know bought the script and it was like a good director was a chef I'm not gonna say no to that obviously but I am like approaching it from
Kyle Leland Cullerton (19:16)
a, you know, the aspiration of a directing career. But, no, I mean, there, there are these, there's, two projects that I'm hoping to roll out that I did direct, this year. you know, so, so I, it's, it's, it's funny how often a director, like a film director, how often should you be directing as a director? know, cause it's like, I mean, you can only make how many short films, right.
before you, mean, and you know, like Stanley Kubrick, he's, makes, was making a film every, like once every four years or whatever. So it is kind of funny to, to look at your career as a director when like the actual time that you spend directing is, is like 1 % of your career of like, your work, know, which is, it's just a weird thing to think of. but yeah, I mean, so I have some of these projects that I'm editing. did.
Mm-hmm.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (20:16)
Direct so I do you know, it's nice to be have that control over the over these projects And then one of them is just a commercial gig. And then the other one is I'm also producer on it working with the director But all those things, you know, they do help with you know me growing as a director. So
Yeah, I think it's also interesting that the or at least what I'm thinking about is the default that directing is on set versus like directing is literally just having an opinion throughout the whole process and the smallest portion of that whole process is capturing the footage.
Right, right, right. Yeah. And even when you're capturing the footage, know, it's like the actors are doing most of it and maybe you say something to them, maybe you don't, you know? Yeah, it is funny. It's kind of yeah, it's like not something that you're, I mean, it's one of those positions that it's impossible to describe to somebody who isn't in the industry or something where you just sound like this mumbling idiot where you're like, well, director, he does like,
Or they do, you know, yeah, yeah, it's a, it's funny.
And everyone does it differently, right? think, know, Hitchcock was more of like wanted actors to be puppets. And I think I'm more interested in like the point of view of the actors. our casting is everything. And ideally, you know, I have a rehearsal to just go over questions and then on set, it's like, yeah, do your thing. And usually my guidance is like, you know, bring your chin down and go a little put a little heat on it a little bit faster.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (21:33)
Yeah
Kyle Leland Cullerton (21:46)
Yeah, absolutely. That's something that I've been struggling with a lot. I mean, just forever. Just something I've been not struggling with, but just contemplating and thinking what is that strategy? Because I'm a huge Hitchcock fan. He's a big influence on me. But then you hear that critique where it's like you hear actors talking about in interviews how some directors...
or feel like puppets when they're when they're being directed. And obviously you don't want that to ever be the case. But then again, Hitchcock movies, they ended up working, you know, he also he actually is funny. He also didn't really have that much respect for like even screenwriting. Like he he would he would write from what I understand he would write kind of like outlines or help structure. And then he would have just like
He would say like the the dialogue isn't that important? You just get some screenwriter to put that together Like he had you know, he was thinking about the editing But yeah, it's yeah
What makes outlining more enjoyable for you than say writing? Like what's your approach currently to outlining? Because it sounds like you mentioned sort of you'll just add some nuggets here and there to this five or six, you know, living documents or briefcase, pardon me, or foot lockers or whatever, or shoe boxes. So what's your outlining process and what makes it more enjoyable than say writing?
Well, what I love about it is that you're kind of, you're not thinking about the specific words that are being said. You're thinking about the emotional pacing that's happening in a, in a character's mind. and you know, you're, you're, you're thinking about what these scenes will accomplish and what it will feel like to an audience. the hard part is, is getting it onto a script and then getting it onto, on camera.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (23:50)
But it's fun to just, you know, you can play with it in your mind all day. it's just this, you know, it's still just the fantasy where you can take it and what that story could be. But yeah, mean, it's kind of like you can, know, dialogue is one thing, the subtext is what's really interesting in any scene. you can kind of outlining, you can kind of plan out
the characters, the subtext that's happening in any scene, you can plan out, you know, the pacing and how this story will change. But then the writing is just the, you know, the fine grains of what makes up that scene.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I try to trust like subtext in the in the rewrites, because it's so it's like it's so hard to write subtext on the first draft. mean, you can put placeholder or like good enough subtext. But I know that's like I literally will write in brackets like make this better in the right. Just so I kind of get the the the spacing down. Like, I know I feel like right now in the first draft, this feels like this moment might just take a page or a page and a half. And then in the rewrite, it might be
you know, two lines or it might be four pages, but getting it down because, I think I agree to that sentiment where when you're in the outline phase, it's it's amorphous and softer and you can just keep generating and creating this nice big iceberg of depth. And then the script is just like the tip. But it's like committing to writing, writing the that is like it becomes kind of like a prison. So I literally sometimes write. I don't know what this scene is about.
I'll probably cut it and destroy it, but then I'll just jump into it or sometimes it's helpful for me to just go. The goal of this scene is to make this emotional experience happen and I'll write it in brackets knowing that will be deleted, but it helps me remember like, this is a working document. This isn't the thing. This is working to like get the thing down so I can rewrite it 10 times over in a year.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (26:00.204)
Yeah, yeah, it's very similar to like storyboarding your shots. You know, it's like you can plan out, you can try to plan out every single, you know, mise en scene moment within your frame. But when you get there, you're mostly going to be living in the moment and seeing, you know, where things land and what the light is telling you in the moment. it's but it's also, yeah, I mean, like with my writing, I
I kind of always aspire to not be so dedicated to the words that are on the page. know, it's like, yeah, it's mainly wanting this subtext and this emotion to be communicated in this scene so that it can set up the next scene. So if the actors find, you know, different words in the moment that come out that feel more natural, like, great, that's perfect.
It's kind of like like curb your enthusiasm, which everybody loves and it's amazing. It's not written at all. It's just an outline and you're following this emotional arc or this plot, but the dialogue is kind of just coming out from, hopefully from the actors feeling natural in those characters.
Yeah, I think that's the benefit of writing directing, especially also if you have trust in yourself. It's like the writing is okay. To be flexible enough and let the actor collaborate and contribute. I think we've talked about the caveats of hard jokes or key pieces of information where I'm pretty sure this hard joke is stronger than what you can potentially improvise, but let them have the take.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it's, and it's funny. mean, I'm, I'm just, I'm being reminded of, of one project I made where, you know, after you shot it and once you're starting editing, then you start, you're still rewriting, know, and it's, it's not just like that you're cutting something, but it's like, but what if there was a shot of this or that, you know, and it's kind of you, you.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (28:11.214)
in those moments you really understand like the purpose of reshoots and stuff. it's like reshoots aren't always like just I mean, I'm right. It's not like, this this actor was terrible. So we need to reshoot this. It's like, yeah, it's like sometimes you can just find. I mean, that's why I love about indie filmmaking like guerrilla filmmaking is like, like if you're editing, you know, like, but this would make more sense if there was like this establishing shot. And I could just take the camera, which
sup
Kyle Leland Cullerton (28:40.846)
I own or my friend owns and we just go get that shot and you can kind of keep it organic and keep it constantly changing until it becomes the best that can be.
Yeah, because I think like, ideally, everyone is on the same page at the start of like, well, this is the story, the genre, the thing we're trying to make. But there's something interesting when you're in the editing process and a deeper element reveals itself. It's like, actually, it's really not like 90 % about this thing. It's maybe 60 % about this thing. But we want to try and highlight the thing that is revealing itself in the
Yeah, that's when you're like, all right, maybe we need to, you know, shoot a couple extra scenes and email the actors and say, Hey, I know we're done with principle, but actually there's this.
Yeah, yeah, no. Yes, there's it's it's it's I mean, it's kind of, you know, when you hear the stories in Hollywood of how. Horrible the industry is to screenwriters, it's kind of you kind of it's funny, as you know, having a different role, like when you're an indie filmmaker and you have you're wearing a bunch of different hats, you know, your producer, writer, director, sometimes you're an actor.
You're an editor, like from each different perspective, you see why everybody else hates you, you know, like why, why, why these other roles are getting upset where it's like, if I wrote something and then, and then handed it off to, you know, some other people to direct and act in and edit, like, I'm sure it's some moments, you know, they're going to make decisions that I wouldn't like as that writer. But then again, when I'm directing something that somebody else wrote, I'm kind of like trying to explain to them like,
Kyle Leland Cullerton (30:26.934)
So this is, we need to change this pacing because it doesn't work as well. Like we need to have this something, we need something else right here or this needs to be shorter. Yeah, it's kind of interesting. And it's great to make a bunch of short films, wearing all these hats, because you learn all this stuff so that you know.
I think that's why I struggle lately and have been avoidant of directing other people's writing because I am so stringent with my writing approach and also the years of doing comedy and knowing that like it can always be funnier, faster, better. Yeah. It's just like, look, if you're not willing to revise or at least let the director myself massage this or make this better, then we're not going to have a fruitful creative partnership.
Right. Yeah. Have you ever directed something that somebody else wrote?
I direct, yeah, in the past a couple of things and one was like a client gig and it was even more because it was student work. So that was like fun and it was in service of the students. So I think I barely massage that because like, all right, let's just get this done. Yeah. But yeah, it's most people have been if I come with like a point of view, like, look, this is why I think it'd make it better. But most projects that I get emailed scripts, I've seen like this isn't my this isn't my thing. Like it's just like your your that's just not my
It's not at the caliber or at the writing proficiency or at the thematic elements that get me excited to either produce or direct. And I think it's because I have a very narrow window of things I like versus a very wide umbrella of things that I just, not interested.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (32:03.31)
Yeah, no, I can definitely relate to that. is, yeah. No, I was just thinking that they're, you know, they're, you know, living in Chicago and being in the film community, you come across so many people who, who, you know, want to collaborate or want you to, to help and work on, their project. And it's funny to kind of, you know, sometimes, you know, sometimes I, I say no to working with.
somebody and other times I said, yeah, sure, let's do it. And you end up making something and it's funny to, to see if you're thinking about it, consciously like a, why you don't want to work on it or why it's just, it just doesn't speak to you. And then you realize why you're choosing what you're choosing kind of after the fact, like the themes that speak to you. but yeah.
these year, I think you're probably one of the best sort of comedic writers in Chicago and editors right now. So I was just like, thank you. You're also comedic in tone. Are you drawn toward the specific genre or like where were you at? genre wise?
Yeah, it's funny. know, was just at, just a couple of days ago, I went to the Chicago Irish Film Festival. I guess I don't want to like shit on a film that I saw, well, whatever. Let's just say I went to a film that was there and it was, the genre was all over the place. It was a thriller and a drama and also a comedy and it had like one scene that was a horror, you know, and it,
And it did not work. It did not work at all. People will, you know, most people seem to like it in the audience because, know, the filmmakers there and stuff and you're, you're excited. But, you know, so it is, it is such a funny thing to try to, you know, cause I'm sure that they thought it was going to work. And there's the stuff that I'm working on is kind of, it's more.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (34:05.934)
You know satirical and has you know moments of thriller not thriller, but you know suspense and stuff. Yes But there would absolutely be moments of you know of levity and stuff like that Right it mostly in you know dialogue or just the interaction between characters, but then when the characters alone it becomes more More dramatic more You know fearing towards thriller ask
and then ultimately when you look at the whole picture, it's, it has this satirical message to it. but yeah, it's, it is kind of something because I feel like when it just doing shorts and stuff, when you have no money and you're just making stuff with friends, comedy is such an easy thing to go to. especially cause I love comedy and, I'm obsessed with comedy and all a bunch of my favorite movies are comedy.
and you know, maybe that's a sign that I should just be sticking to that. And that's what I should be doing. But most of the, most of the things that interest me when it comes to writing do have a much darker tone. And, but that, but, but also I think the stuff that's coming out today that I really like, you know, I feel like genre kind of changes over time, just overall in the, in the industry, like severance, for example.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (35:37.09)
Yeah, like it's super, it's sometimes it's, really funny. And yeah, it's totally this satirical kind of yeah, comedy, then like this last episode that just, came out was just like fully emotional. I don't know if you watch it, but it's just like, not, not, not a, not a touch of levity in it, you know,
experimental editing it was like wow I'm getting nauseous by these cut these
Yeah, yeah. yeah, that was really interesting. That one, that episode was directed by its DP. Yeah. Which is, which made sense. but yeah, it's kind of, I wonder if, I mean, I can't, it can't be a bad thing, but I, but I wonder what this effect of, of TV changing so much, how that's going to affect filmmaking. because like TV.
Maybe that's your, can be much more, you know, the genre is much more malleable where you can have an episode that's dramatic and then the next episode is kind of goofier. but can you do that? Can that, work as well in, movies? And of course there's plenty of examples where it can. I think that the Cohen, the Cohen brothers are probably one of the best examples of doing comedy and just pure like suspenseful, you know, plot.
You know, but yeah, it's, interesting. It's a hard thing to navigate and it's not something you can really teach or study. You kind of just have to get it.
Mishu Hilmy (37:09.206)
I think that's why I might have been drawn to comedy. know I've told folks before of like, I want went into sort of theater work and improvising to learn like, how does an audience work? I was just clueless. I'm like, what do these living breathing human, know, hundreds, dozens, hundreds of people in front of this work? What do they think about it? And I think the beauty of like really getting that muscle memory of comedy is like you learn real quick of what strangers like.
Yeah
and don't like versus if I just like went into like horror or dramatic writing or short filmmaking, I'd probably be more comfortable putting out like really obscure and alienating stuff and not get like, well, why don't they understand my vision? Like this is so good because I spent all those years on stage. like, yeah, if a character says this or treats someone this way, people are gonna.
walk out or boo or moan. And I think that just adds to your ability to go, all right, well, if I do bend into suspense or into thriller, you still have those muscles, those chops of knowing, like there's a certain threshold that will either connect or alienate the audience. And I'm not trying to be punk rock about it versus like some people might love experimental films and think alienation is their oeuvre and their theme. that's fine as well.
Yeah, I mean, they say that comedy is the hardest to do. So the fact that I've only been doing comedy, maybe I'm gonna start, maybe I'm gonna make a horror short and just be like, this is so much easier. And it's getting into way more festivals. That would be nice. Maybe it's like training up on a mountain where there's less oxygen.
Mishu Hilmy (38:49.291)
Yeah
Kyle Leland Cullerton (38:56.576)
or and you're kind of a, so that would be a nice, but I totally know what you mean with the live audience. That's similar to why I always tell people that you got to show a rough cut of your film to a room full of people. know, obviously the, you know, test screenings and stuff like that, that like studios do have a lot of horror stories, but sometimes it's just like literally just playing your film
in front of an audience, not even to get their feedback afterwards, but just to feel it in front of them. just, it just so informative.
There are times where I wish I were like the head of a studio so I could just like experiment and try different things. Cause it's like, I like to me the test screening, there's only one, one or two questions that should be asked after it. Did you like it? And would you like, did you like it? And would you tell your friends and would you watch this again? Like those are the only two questions that cause like, yeah, that's how movies make money.
Yeah, you should see it. Oh, no, I'll go with you. Like, I don't mind. I'll see it twice. those are the only two versus notes from strangers. Oh, yeah, the actor's teeth looks weird. they're right. These people like their opinions don't matter. it's not it's literally all that matters is will they will they tell their friends to see it? Right.
Yeah, on the other hand am so neurotic and insecure that I would want I would want to ask every single person like this specific shot on the white shot should I take like half a second off the end of that frame should I cut to the next part sooner like just because This because there's so many when you're editing. There's just so many decisions There's so many different ways you could go with something and and with writing or with acting it's like there's just so many different choices you can make it any
Kyle Leland Cullerton (40:43.073)
split second.
Yeah, I was just editing something yesterday for one of Lance's projects. I think you were on set for the camera one, but like I'm just sitting there like, I don't like the way the shoe is entering this frame. So I just like trim a frame.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of it's it's it's you got to be insane. And I think I would guess that the most insane people are the best at it too. Right. You know.
Yeah, caring the most or just I think it's all about point of view and what makes something original or idiosyncratic is that point of view is that degree of insanity or obsession or that care? that's where you care about something so much you'll you'll make the frame meaningful. Right. And whether someone picks up on it, that doesn't really matter. It's just that that's where you're adding your originality.
Like like James Cameron changing this like color of one of the leafs in Avatar in the background
Mishu Hilmy (41:34.245)
Is that true? yeah
Yeah, he would be sitting down with all the graphic artists and telling them specifically what to do on this like, yeah, you know, it's coming.
Yeah, I mean, it's like, hey, when you're at that level, sure, why not? That's also a challenge, like how to let go. And that's the one thing I, like, I'm still working on it, but like letting something I produced or directed off to an editor, that was a big, big learning lesson. And I enjoyed it. Like, wow, they have a similar vision or we can talk through and it's great. I can start doing that now.
Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's one of, that's one thing that I, I have yet. That's a challenge that I have yet to try out. I mean, I've done it. I've done it once where I had like, you know, a very short thing that I have. I had a very short thing that I, handed off to another editor, but I'm just so obsessive that I ended up just completely redoing it. and, and, and, and I didn't even give them a chance because it was like the, I, know, it was only the first cut or whatever, you know,
But it was informative. Yeah, I would love to get to that point someday. But obviously there are lot of success. There are some successful directors that do still edit their entire
Mishu Hilmy (42:47.106)
Did presence, think he edited Cam Ops presence.
And I think Sean Baker edits all of his films too. don't know you want to get into film critiquing, but did you watch? So you saw Presence, right? I loved it.
I was shivers up. I'm like, this is
Right? Yeah, it was such a good storytelling and I was like, wait, who wrote this? And of course it was, that's the guy who wrote, I forget his name, but he wrote like Mission Impossible. Like he's, like of course he's a great screenwriter. It feels like it's something small and Indian from young filmmakers, but.
Yeah
Mishu Hilmy (43:25.486)
It's just 30, 30, some odd cuts. think it was like 38, somewhere between 30 to 38. They're all like masters, you know, or, know, I'm like, love that. I love it. You're just breathing in it.
Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was such a, such a, just such a great story and told as simply as it needed to be told.
single location. That's the stuff I'd like to play around with and like, how can I produce something like this? Can I make something like this?
Yeah, right. Yeah, it's something that that you could easily produce on a small budget I thought it was really interesting the fact that that came out the same years as nickel boys I wonder if that was just a total
Yeah, I still want to. want to. Yeah. Yes. was playing for like one day at the Alamo or nearby. I missed it.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (44:07.564)
River East 21 was playing it. It might still be playing it honestly.
It's like the build up, yeah. I Oscars are tonight.
Yeah, I just saw it in theaters last week. So, but yeah.
I'm curious, how do you inject risk taking or mischief or subversion in your writing process, your directing process? What level of mindfulness are you thinking about taking swings, taking risks?
Yeah, I mean, I mean, I've always been, I mean, not to, not to toot my own horn too much, but, you know, I've always just been kind of an anti-authoritarian, know, anti-authoritarian type of person in general. So, and I'm one of those weird people who love the last Jedi, you know, whereas like, you know, it's, I love subversion and kind of going and just taking, you know, taking.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (45:05.498)
you know, in this, you know, as a writer, it's, know, people constantly say, you know, everything's been done, you know, it's all been done. And there's only, you know, five stories or whatever that you can tell. and, I, and I believe in all those rules, and I believe all that stuff is true, but there are weird things that you can do with, you know, this, story that's been told a thousand times. There's weird ways to, you know, pivot at a moment that goes.
You you play with one trope, then right when you think, you know, what's happening, you turn it into another trope that, you know, that just combines things into different ways. So I'm, all of my ideas are somehow making fun of, making fun of, of, some stereotype in storytelling or, or trying to, you know, be original, you know, take something that is not original at all and finding a way to make it.
original, yeah, which sometimes can work and sometimes not at all.
I like to me like a solid maybe benchmark or at least I like to tap into is like do it so I feel a nervous about this like you know so in terms of like the writing process of like yeah there's something something about this that's either a little bit out there stretching a little bit or a little bit personal even though no one would know it's personal so do you find that you actively inject that degree of
I want to, yeah, I want some skin in the game or like, nah, this is just a genre. Like it's no one would know it's, you know, my own. Like, do you try to clock nervousness or like, this feels like there's a payoff or a risk if people don't like it. Yeah.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (46:48.942)
I mean, definitely, know, my art education and film school education has always come from the inspiration that if something makes you uncomfortable, you're going the right way. Or if something is controversial, that something can't be good unless it in some way is controversial, which may not always be true, but I think that there is something there.
But yeah, it's kind of funny. um, you know, when I was younger, I always, loved, you know, PT Anderson and Wes Anderson and all these directors. And I thought that I would be one of them and stuff. Um, but I, but also looking back, it's like, I don't understand at all how I could have been telling a worthwhile story as a 25 year old. Like, but yeah, because, because I,
didn't even know what, you know, what themes, you know, I would be, what themes I thought that I was interested back then, you know? I can't remember where or who it was in relation to, but when I first heard like some critic talking about a director, like they're the theme that, that spans through all of their work, you know? I had, know, before hearing that, I had never even thought of that, you know,
I was just thinking like, Spielberg made a movie about sharks and then he made a movie about dinosaurs and you can make a movie about whenever you want. But then but now that I have, you know, a handful of ideas that I want to sit down and flesh out. Yeah, you kind of do suddenly see this part of yourself that is in all of them. And it is a little risk taking because you're is your there's a part of yourself that.
You know, hopefully, you know, you're, finding a flaw in yourself and kind of examining that. so it is, yeah, there is that, that, risk of, of showing who you are and what you, what you don't like about yourself. and if you see something that is, you know, not written well or some terrible movie, it's a good chance that they weren't, you know, diving into those parts of themselves, you know,
Mishu Hilmy (49:13.966)
Yeah, that's why like I love watching Hallmark movies when I'm at my partner's family like during the holidays because it's like it's such a confidence. Yeah, because it's pure genre pure schema and the schematics. It's just like this is the moment this happens and it's like devoid of point of view. like one out of 50 there's like a little bit of subversion and I'm like, my gosh, we're not getting like a three star on letterbox versus a half star or one and a half star. As you could just get a gun, know, right.
Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then, mean, of course, there are plenty of, you know, just feel good romcoms that that I love because sometimes someone, you know, you know, there are there is, you know, classic structure to be used. And sometimes, you know, some feel good movie can just use the structure so well, you know.
But yeah, it is funny. Yeah, and I do love having them. Yeah, I don't mind putting on a crappy Netflix Christmas movie and just, you know, enjoying, you're enjoying something in it. Obviously it's not tapping into this part of your soul that, you know, makes you understand life more, but it is just, yeah.
Yeah, it's good. I'm trying to remember. was watching like this. I think it was I don't know if it's like that's entertainment or one of these like weird DVDs that was summarizing the Golden Age of, you know, Hollywood musicals and whatnot. And it was some some critic who was like talking about why The Wizard of Oz was a box office flop and it gained its resurgence during the
television so when it was like being rerun so like most people thought Wizard of Oz was like a shitty movie from like 1939 until 1955 like people like that was a bad movie and it wasn't until sort of TV revived it and people got to sort of you know maybe it was a mix of nostalgia but he was talking about it came out in the 30s you know late 30s I think if I remember correctly or maybe the 40s yeah and we're in the midst of a war coming out of a war and
Mishu Hilmy (51:27.106)
people like he's like in praise of frivolity, like not everything can be just deep, dark art and like important work. There's something to also be said about frivolousness and frivolity. And this is just a story about a kid who lost her dog and learning a life lesson. So I do think like what makes writing sometimes hard, especially if you're planning to produce or write a director is like, this needs to be important to me. And this needs to be important. A party would let's just like write a frivolous
You know? Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (51:56.43)
90 minute like just a fucking romp and that'd be a good exercise like let go of it being a testament to my vision my point of view right? I know I'd love to like play around with that exercise
Yeah. No. Yeah. And I like, I love rom-coms and stuff like that. So sometimes I think about like, maybe I'll just like write a crappy, you know, typical rom-com and then just like sell the script and make a bunch of money off of it. And then somebody else will worry about making it. You know, that would be, I would, I would not mind doing that because there's yeah. Cause sometimes there's little parts of that, also, like with, wizard of Oz, there was, it was somewhat of a risk to, to, don't know if any movies had done this before that, but they,
They made the risk of starting the film in black and white, right? And then suddenly doing a, this complete aesthetic one 80 to color as she enters this fantasy world, which is, which that must've been a weird decision back then, you know,
Yeah, yeah, because it's one of the few color pictures. think even that was criticized as like being garish and like, what are these like the colors weird and too in such intense. I don't think they have the language for it,
Yeah, yeah, like they just like some people just saw it as a gimmick. Yeah, right. But I'm
Mishu Hilmy (53:11.138)
back to writing. Yeah, like, how like, are you? I just want to make sure you get to the right. Is like, are you feeling hopeful and optimistic that you'll you'll get to it and keep like developing it?
Yeah, absolutely. mean, like, I think that like these, these features that I want to write, will, eventually just like sit down and do a throw up draft in, three days. You know, I think I'm just going to just write it all, write it all out the way that I, the way that it just comes out. because that's, that's kind of what I, what I've trained myself to do academically. You know, I was kind of always a.
enjoy life type of person. and not, not, doing my studies, even, even if I, you know, was, was good at a subject or something, you know, I would just not do my homework until the last minute. And I just wouldn't sleep for a couple of days in order to get it done. And, you know, maybe that's just what my, you know, the academic life has just taught my brain to do. and it would take, you know, a lot of, habit breaking to,
eventually have a new way of doing that. But, but the one, the one thing that I, that I do like about that strategy is that you are in this very particular state of mind when you, when you write it. So it is, you know, it is cohesive, you know, and then, something that, Taika what he does, from what I, from what he says is like, he just, you know, he writes his, his throw up draft or whatever. And then.
He doesn't read it again for maybe a year. Like, and so then a year later he'll go back and, and do it. there's way, and then that doing that is that you are able to basically read it from, you know, completely without any perspective on it. So you're just, you're, you're reading it objectively, and you can be honest with yourself because you're not, you know, attached to these things because you've forgotten about them. so.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (55:18.976)
In that respect, you can use procrastination in some ways, where it's like, you just, yeah, if you just barrel through and get something done on the page, then you can, you can put off to that next moment of, of, know, going back and, and, and rewriting it. but that's also why I kind of, you know, I said before that I do like to, you know, put all my focus in something. and I do like to do that.
But then once you have that first draft done, kind of, you know, I would want to go and then start working on a completely different project. And then you, and then then you jump back and then you have these different things that you can jump. So if you get bored with something or lose inspiration with something, you can go, and you follow the inspiration inspiration to another project.
Agreed.
Mishu Hilmy (56:06.764)
Right. Yeah, I think implementing time in your creative process is important. I know like Stephen King's on writing. think he talks about like waiting 12 weeks before ever looking at it. So whatever the time designation is like for me, it creates that distance of like, this isn't me who wrote it, but like, I can see the flaws and go away. What was this person thinking when they wrote this? I don't understand. Like this needs to be cleaned up this. they didn't realize when they were writing it, they being me that actually this is the story and you find it on like page 50 and go this. This is it. Right. This is the interesting thing. And then when you rewrite it, you can
highlight the thing on page 50 and make that a priority.
Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's just like this, you know, a brief moment of inspiration that makes you understand all that we're like, this, how did I, how did I not realize this is what I was writing? But it's the same thing with like, being a 25 year old and not knowing what wings you want to expect is when you have some time, you're like, these are the stories that I love. Yeah.
And then given just sort of how challenging this biz is and how uncertain the industry is, like what keeps you motivated? What's been like keeping you, know, optimistic and motivated?
That's a good question. uh, grandiose delusions, I think that's, that's probably the number one thing I will. mean, and not to sound like an asshole, but it's like going and seeing films that are that either make a lot of money or, win a bunch of awards and seeing how they could be better, know? Right. And just being like, like, yeah, this is a tough industry. Yeah, there's, it's a lot of work and.
Kyle Leland Cullerton (57:38.488)
There's a lot of luck that needs to come into play. But I do know that if I actually try and put this work in, there are some people who are going to see that I have something to offer. I mean, I kind of, but it definitely takes a lot of delusion to just be like, no, I'm just going to keep going. I'm just going to keep trying. think I'm great. I think these ideas will work. So I'm just going to keep going.
You call it delusion.
For sure. Whether it's dilution or commitment is all determined later.
Right, right. Yeah, like if you're living in squalor, a subset boulevard, holding your scripts. Yeah. If you're 60.
And maybe you die drunk in an alley and then a hundred years later, you're one of the greatest novelists ever, ever, ever known, you know? Yeah.
Mishu Hilmy (58:34.638)
Yeah, but Kyle is a great great getting to chat. And yeah, thanks for sharing this.
Yeah, for sure. This was, this was awesome. And it's, was great to do this on the day of the Oscars. So it's kind of getting us in the mode of, of, of watching the, the, the reward that could come to all this work that we, that we, spend all our time and procrastination towards. Yeah. Thank you.
Yeah, the labor is the reward.
Yeah, yeah, there you go. Yeah, cheers, this is awesome. Thank you.
Mishu Hilmy (59:09.23)
you
Mishu Hilmy (59:12.984)
Before sending you off with a little creative prompt, I just wanted to say thank you for listening to Mischief and Mastery. If you enjoyed the show, please rate it and leave a review on iTunes or wherever you listen to podcasts. Your support does mean a lot. Until next time, keep taking care of yourself, your likeness, curiosity, and sense of play. And now for a little Mischief Motivation. All right, here is a little Mischief prompt outlined to the first line. Take one.
beat from a story outline and just write the first line of dialogue and the first line of action for that moment that beat nothing more. Just practice doing one small entry point today to help you just see writing and creativity as a near series of little tasks. So that's it. If you're outlining something, open up your software or your pad or whatever. And yeah, the first line from the beat, just do one line.
of action in one line of dialogue and see where it takes you. All right, enjoy.