Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Honest Money Show is your guide to understanding what money really is, and where Bitcoin fits in. Hosted by Anja Dragovic, Australia's female-led, Bitcoin-only podcast, it cuts through the noise to explore how money shapes our lives, why the current system leaves so many people behind, and what a clearer, fairer future could look like.
Expect honest, accessible conversations with some of the most interesting thinkers in the space, the kind that take you from "I don't really get this" to genuinely curious. No hype, no pressure, just money, made clear.
Whether you're brand new to these questions or already deep in them, you're welcome here.
Welcome back, Michael. Thank you
for having me. Lovely to see you. Lovely
to see you again. I feel like you've gone
missing off Twitter for some time and now
you're back. Detox, detox. Yeah, I found
like I was like, oh my God, this is so
echo chambery. And then I went to Nostar,
which was a bit more like less dopamine-y.
Like Twitter is super cracky. Like, you
know, engagement, engagement, engagement,
engagement, babe. And I'm sort of like,
I'll only pull it out if there's like
things to talk about. So like lately it's
been like, you know, Saylor not proving
his coins. That's like a big frustrating
thing, which I feel like I'm a Bitcoin
boomer asking for that. Apparently I am,
which is fine. And then like all the stuff
with Core 30, I think that was a big one
for me where I was just like, oh my gosh,
this is, I'm losing brain cells hand over
fist here. And I just thought it was like
such a demonstration of just the, like how
disingenuous the community is being, like
sort of thing. Like, I mean, half the
community and then other half are sort of
like, no, no, no, Bitcoin's money. And
then you got this other half that are
like, no, no, no, I've got this shitty app
I'm building and it needs to not be money
because my app's shitty and I'm trying to
do a token launch. And so like we saw last
year, like literally, I'm talking like
Australian Bitcoiners that are smart
dudes, but they're basically at the mercy
of their sponsors and shit. So they're
like, no, no, I need this. I need to
support this initiative. Otherwise, I
don't know where my next meal is coming
from. And it's like, are you serious?
We've got 8 billion people on the planet
that have a money problem. No one's got a,
you're shitty app, you're building
problem. Like everyone has a money
problem. So until that's solved, it just
feels irresponsible almost to look any
other direction. I don't know about you,
Anya, but I am not interested in working
40 hours a week or 50 hours a week. I'm
also not really like interested in all my
mates working 40 hours or my mates kids
working 40 hours a week. Everyone's got
talent. Like we need to focus on finding
our talents and purposes. And I promise
box without sunlight. Like that's just a
weird guess, but something tells me that
that's not directionally correct. I agree
with you on that. I definitely don't want
to work 40 hours a week, but I'm just
bring me up to speed because I've seen
your tweets, but I don't have the
backstory. So his sailor actually not
like, did he actually blatantly deny
wanting to give proof of reserves or
what's that? Literally, he said no. And
I'm like, as an exchange operator. So many
people don't know, but I used to run an
exchange and it was actually one of the
largest on ramps into Bitcoin in the
world. When someone does not want to show
their keys or prove their ownership, that
is beyond every single word, the biggest
red flag you've ever seen. So it's sort of
like Craig Wright, he took everything to
court about being Satoshi. He went to
court. He really put the screws in with
every kind of legal sort of direction you
can take it. And it all comes down to one
thing. Just sign a transaction and
everything is over. That's it. That's all
you have to do. Now, sailor, not only does
he not want to sign a transaction, he
wants to spend $17 million in auditing
fees. I would not spend $17 million,
especially of shareholder money, if I had
a way to do it for 30 cents instantly.
That to me is just supporting all the
information that I already have, which is
if someone, it doesn't pass the smell test
if people aren't willing to prove their
ownership of their keys. Okay. So let's
say, no, no, no, he got an audit done. No
worries. Do you know how dumb auditors
are? Not only are they dumb, firstly,
they're dumb and they're very easy to buy
off. So firstly, let's just think,
auditors, you can easily make it look like
these coins are yours to them because they
have no incentive to figure out if they
are or aren't yours. But people, when I
say, oh, he hasn't proven his coins,
people go, yeah, he's got an audit. Is
that the auditors that were auditing the
banks in 2008? Or is that the auditors
that were like, that is just such a crock
of toilet water. It's sort of like the
banks having your money. You know, they
don't have your money. Like we get that
system. Just because they're a big
institution doesn't mean they, everyone
has a price basically. So what I'm, what
my frustration is, is his reluctance to
prove it or to acknowledge the necessity
of proving it is one thing. But then to
criticize, insult, you know, bully, talk
down to people that are challenging his
hypothesis, that's not on. Like I watched
that Danny Knowles show with him and I
thought I was watching a clip that was
repeating because it was such a broken
record. All I heard was Danny ask an
extremely legitimate question and then
Sailor just turned into a complete lemon
party trying to figure out a way to insult
Danny and totally dismiss the premise of
the question. Which is exactly what he
said. No, I reject the premise of your
question because that's so stupid. It's
like, no, it's not. There's a billion
other people thinking this, fuckface. Like
everyone's like calling each other,
everyone's saying, oh, how weird, how
disrespectful of Danny. Fuck that. Put the
hooks in. I want to find answers. And the
problem is most of these journalists,
let's call them, like they've all got a
podcast. They all want Sailor on his
podcast to bring clicks. No worries. I get
that. Everyone has a business to run. But
like there's got to be some journalistic
integrity where it's like the whole
community that is trying to change money
for 8 billion people. Not, oh, I'm trying
to pump my bags so I can go to Hawaii.
It's like we're trying to fix this
insidious problem that's existed in
humanity. And so to ever get some like
hand wave rant kind of BS answer that I
saw him give Danny, which was basically
like, I'm going to send a message. Nobody
ever asked me any of these questions again
or you won't have access to me anymore.
Mate, I've never seen something so
irresponsible
fiscally, like he has a fiduciary
responsibility to give answers. That's
like his bed. He made it. He wanted to be
a public company. He wants to raise money
publicly. No worries. You owe the
community answers. And he says he doesn't
have to give anyone anything. No, he
doesn't have to do anything. But he has to
make sure that his stock doesn't go bust.
And the problem is the community, if they
made you, they're going to break you too.
And I have no bags in master or MSTR or
any of the junk stuff that's being cooked
up because I'm not here to make money. I'm
here to try and change money. All I've
seen is money ruin people's lives. And now
it's like getting back on Twitter. I was
like, yeah, because my phone's been
blowing up with mates and people that are
like, bro, what the fuck is happening with
micro strategy? Like, does this dude even
have his coins? I'm like, man, I don't
even know anymore. But sort of like,
you're not even trading fundamentals with
that. You're just trading Hopian. Like,
what is the market sort of sentiment
telling you about it? Oh, it's got an army
of Twitter bots. Okay, well, that's
probably okay to keep the sentiment up.
Because remember, Anya, every single stock
is not trading on fundamentals. They're
trading on sentiment. And if the sentiment
is good, which is usually the
fundamentals, like earnings per share or
whatever it is, that becomes good. That
usually dictates the sentiment. So anyway,
so that I've got a really like unmovable
problem with that. Like, if you're not
proving your coins, you're going to get
just like, yeah, if you're not proving
your coins, you've got to have a really,
really good reason not to do it. And if
Brian Armstrong can prove their reserves,
if Jesse can prove their reserves from
Kraken, if everyone else has got the same
level of responsibility, I think. I think
it's more like a leadership position. If
I'm on Team Bitcoin, which I am on Team
Bitcoin, then I'd consider him close to
the captain of the team. And usually the
captain of the team is not the best
player. It's the one that exhibits the
most leadership and is a great, great
player on the team, but exhibits a lot of
leadership qualities. And considering
Bitcoin is the first verifiable asset on
Earth, which his whole shtick is trading
on, I think a good example would be to
prove that. Pretty straightforward. It
doesn't feel like crazy. It only feels
like crazy until you get a bunch of
anonymous Twitter bots that have no
profile picture, no anything, start
saying, nah, nah, nah, you're just trying
to cope. It's like, no, really, I'm just
literally trying to make my phone ring
less because I want to play Fortnite.
That's literally it. Like, my phone rings,
I put the controller down, I can't play
Fortnite. What's up? Man, I'm down 80%.
Like, is this thing going to bounce back
or what? Check Twitter. Okay. Sailor's
still in denial. Check his interviews.
Okay, he's berating podcast hosts now.
Bro, dip, get out of that trade. That's
basically how I think of it. Like, if
you're not going to be forthcoming with
the community, and by the way, all of
their marketing material talks about
transparency. Why would they need that?
Why would they need to tell me they're
transparent? They need to tell me they're
transparent because the thing that makes
them actually transparent is not being
done. And that's called proving your
reserves. And now the next comment that
comes after that, well, it doesn't prove
liabilities. No, it doesn't. You're
correct. What it does prove is that if
there are any liabilities against the
coin. So basically saying, people are
saying it doesn't matter if you show that
you've got the coins. You can't prove the
liabilities against the coins. Meaning you
may have lent it out to five or six
different people. That's a term we call
rehypothecation, basically. Which is sort
of like double dipping on the same asset.
Trying to keep it. It's basically what
fucked the housing market. Which is
everyone wrapping these junk into another
junk to collateralize the junk to take a
loan on the junk. And so you end up with
this really bad derivative style product.
And yeah, I mean, I want better standards
for Bitcoin. I don't care how many coins
you have. Prove you've got them. And given
that this is Bitcoin, you know, the basics
are free, which is proving ownership. And
that's the entire thing. To avoid these
big catastrophic blow-ups, you prove
ownership so that the community can rely
on your integrity. And not sort of, you
know, your wordsmith and words salad and
all that sort of stuff. Like, I don't know
if that makes sense. But it makes sense to
me. And I'm only one voice and quite a
small voice anyway. I don't have a big
sort of following sort of thing like these
other big cats do. But the people with big
followings need to be extremely
responsible with them. Like, people that
are just parroting noise with no
experience is a very bad thing to do.
Like, it's so bad and so toxic. Like,
China literally just implemented a ban on
influencers speaking on something that
they're not educated on. So let's say I'm
a fitness influencer selling protein
powder. China will look at what my track
record is and they'll be like, this dude
did economics at university and he's
worked at a bank for two years. He knows
nothing to be speaking on what he's
speaking on. So he gets demonetized. So
you can't monetize your profile if you're
speaking on shit that you are not
professionally educated in. I feel like
that's a good thing. Like, that's a good
step in the right direction because it
actually adds weight. If someone's
speaking on something, it means that they
know their stuff. There's a value in
giving everyone a voice. But then, you
know, you get analysis paralysis when
there's too many cooks in the kitchen. So,
yeah, I just think it's a pretty
straightforward claim. Micro strategy, if
they want to be the captain of the Bitcoin
team, then let's export the values of
Bitcoin to TradFi instead of importing the
values of TradFi into Bitcoin. And so, you
know, sovereignty, asset proof of
ownership. These are basics. These are day
ones in Bitcoin. And I don't think
there's... I just don't feel like it's
unreasonable to get a straight answer.
Like, there should be a 45-minute
explanation if he has to take 45 minutes
to explain. No worries. But until then,
all I see is someone avoiding the very
basic thing that is the hardest thing to
prove. And they're spending $17 million
avoiding it. So that's how much they spend
in audit fees. And let me tell you
something. There is not a single auditor
on the planet that is looking to check
whether MicroStrategy's business line is
doing anything. No one cares about that.
They care about the thing that's adding
value to the company and that all the
derivatives are based on. And that's the
Bitcoin holders. So paying $17 million to
get your business intelligence, whatever
that is, by the way, that's a whole other
kettle of fish. But paying $17 million to
avoid the thing that's free, that is a...
I've got enough experience to say that
that's a red flag. And I literally am one
of the few people on the planet with
enough experience to say that that's a red
flag. Maybe 20 other exchange operators,
give or take. Yeah. And speaking of
exchange operators, one thing that keeps
coming back to me as I'm listening to you
talk is... You obviously know you used to
work for an exchange as well. And the
managing director of that exchange used to
say that even proof of reserves is a bit
of a marketing term, that it's not that
easy to actually prove it publicly. And
that it's very easy to fake. So is that
like... No, there's merit to that. But
what... It's not just the number on the
screen. It's everyone seeing the number on
the screen. So it means that all future
behaviours are going to be relative to
this proof. Meaning any borrowing
capacity, any lending capacity. But
everyone is looking at the same source of
collateral. Now, if we don't have that,
that means I can go to Pete and say, Hey,
Pete, can I borrow a million bucks? I've
got these coins. And then I go to Paul and
I go, Hey, Paul, can I borrow a million
bucks? I've got these coins. Paul and Pete
don't know each other. So now that
collateral is being used in two places at
once. That's not a good thing. We don't
want that. Because that's where clever
accounting gets caught out. We've seen
that with BlockFi. We've seen that with
FTX. We've seen it everywhere. There's so
many examples. So while it is a marketing
term in a way, it stops any form of
additional bullshit to get added to the
pile. In the same way, like, when you say
marketing term, it is a marketing term,
but everything in Bitcoin is marketing.
It's basically about instilling
confidence. And that's why proof of
reserves is like a real silver bullet,
where it's like, okay, well, they've
proven that they've got those reserves.
That way, anytime a coin moves from there,
there's only one person to talk to. And
that's that person, whoever that person
is, sailor or whatever. So there's
definitely merit to it beyond the optics,
but the optics are a thing. And I think
that's almost largely why I have a bigger
problem with it, because it's so optic
driven that to not do it, it's a free
lunch. Like it's a free, like that is the
easiest way to appease so many curious
minds, let's say, is to just say, just
sign it and get rid of these idiots. Tell
them to stop blowing up my Twitter
notifications. That's all you have to do.
There's no security issue. What he's
realizing probably is that there's
actually a lot more security problems if
you don't prove them, because now you have
a hundred people or a thousand people,
like a hundred, tens of thousands of
people that are down really bad. They're
going to try and find a problem with
something that you've said, and they're
going to try and throw that back in your
face. And as a publicly traded company,
like that's not what you want. And it's so
easily avoidable. So I'm sort of just like
confused, but to your, to your, to what
you said, I don't, I don't fully disagree
with it. I don't fully disagree with you.
I think, I think it's a largely an optics
thing, which is probably where I come back
to setting the right example, because if
he's the biggest dog in the room, you want
him upholding the values that got us here
in the first place, not sort of saying,
yeah, nah, they're not really that
important and stuff. They are very
important. That's the only reason Bitcoin
survived. Like if we didn't demand
cryptographic proof, Craig Wright would be
Satoshi right now. Like, I'm not even
joking. The only thing that stopped him
from being Satoshi was not being able to
sign a cryptographic key. And that's like,
there's a reason why cryptography is king.
It's because it is, you can't hand wave
around it. You can't, you know, distract
people from it. It's it. It's, that's all
it is. It's just sign a transaction. And
now no one ever has to think about it or
complain ever again. It's super
straightforward. So it's always surprising
when people would rather deal with all the
noise and sort of like, not backlash, but
just deal with the noise. Like people, we
all need to be focused. Like the economy
is not good enough for us to all be doing
20 things at once. And so I think people
demand these sort of standards so that you
can focus. Like you don't, you don't want
to be thinking about things. You want to
be thinking about whatever the thing
you're focused on is. And so when
everyone's got to sort of sleep with one
eye open, being like, Oh, do they have the
coins? Are they rehypothecating the coins?
Uh, things like that. It's like, we just
want to see where the coins are the same
way people want to see like Fort Knox.
Like people think that hasn't been
audited. So what do people think? There's
no coins there. I mean, there's no gold
bars there, or there's probably not all
the gold bars there. It's very
straightforward when you apply it to
almost any other circumstance. You, you
very like, if I had, okay, Anya, let's say
I have a property fund and we own 60% of
Manhattan. Pardon. You want to invest in
it and you go, Oh damn, this looks
awesome. You guys have been going up so
well. Oh my gosh. What properties do you
own? I beg your pardon. It's like, Oh, I,
I'm really keen to invest. I just want to
know what properties you guys currently
own. How dare you ask such a question?
It's sort of like the property fund has
one purpose to own property. And if you
can't prove to me that you own the
property, then I don't even know why I'm
having a conversation with you in the
first place. And that's kind of the
mentality. Now I get it. He's not Bitcoin.
He does. He uses Bitcoin, but he's not
Bitcoin. So he's entitled to operate
however he wants. Of course, I have no
objection to that, but if he wants the
support of many, it's a very free, easy
way to get it, which is prove ownership,
prove reserves, and prove that you're not
double dipping anywhere. I don't think he
ever will. If he would have, he would have
done it by now. And that usually doesn't
pass the smell test from my experience,
which is, um, you want people, you want
people to be willing to do it, especially
if there's no, like, there's no security
risk. Oh, there's a security risk. Look,
if there's a security risk, knowing the
address of his coins, there is a much
bigger security risk, knowing who the CEO
is, that controls the coins. That's a
promise. Like that is a guaranteed
promise. So the worst security thing is
everyone knowing that he's a coin guy. The
second worst was not even second worst,
but like, yeah, knowing the address, like
if that was a security risk, um, look, it
doesn't add, it doesn't help from a
security perspective. Sure. It's not
helping, but it's not nearly bad. Sad
enough to say, no, no, no, we don't need
to prove we own over 800,000 Bitcoin. And
we're even like discussing, proving that
ownership. Like that to me is absolutely
baffling. I'm also Santa Claus and the
truth tooth fairy. Just kidding. The tooth
fairy is not real. Santa Claus is though.
For all the kids at home, 100% he is. For
the kids at home, looking in the mirror,
like, come on, new miner. Like, let's go
Santa. Yeah. Yeah. Like I've really
largely tuned out from X and I wonder if
part of, like, it seems like we're really
quarreling more than ever. Is that part
of, is that because we're in a bear
market? Is that usually what happens? It's
my first one. No, no. You're yeah.
Firstly, yes. Uh, it usually happens in
quarreling happens. We always say it's
like when, oh, when Bitcoin's down, people
start infighting. Well, usually that does
happen because like, I know the only
reason I'm caring, like, cause literally I
got off X, uh, for similar reasons. It
just seemed like a noisy platform. Um, but
yeah, now it's like my phone's ringing and
all my mates or people that I know are
getting absolutely chewed up and spit out
on the trades. And they're like, is there
any light at the end of the tunnel? And
like part of poking and prodding is to
figure out, is there any light at the
tunnel at the end of the tunnel? Like, um,
yeah, I think when, when the chips are
down, like the Joker says, when the chips
are down, these civilized people will
start eating each other. And that's very
true. That's what happens because people
are down and they're looking for someone
to blame or trying to figure out why
they're down and how to avoid it in the
future. And then you kind of get this
inviting or quarreling. Um, I think, I
definitely think it is important for
people to see what is in good faith and
what's not me calling you a fuckwit for
owning master or Micro strategy, MSTR.
That's quarreling. But me saying, okay,
guys, we need to prove this to strengthen
whatever's coming. There is sort of this
iron sharpens iron. Um, but the problem is
when everyone's incentives are kind of
confused, like I'm in the Bitcoin space.
I'm just focused on Bitcoin being a better
money for 8 billion people. Now,
crosshairs, you get hit with all this
noise, STRC, MSTR, strive, stretch. Like,
dude, it's like an, it's like the Easter
show out there now. Like it's shit
everywhere. And you're like, okay, well,
that's fine. You've lost money on MSTR.
Oh, you've lost money on it. You've lost
me. Okay, cool. Well, I'm sorry you've all
lost money, but can we focus again on what
we're doing, which is changing money.
We're changing money so people can't lose.
And now one of the other problems I have
with the whole sailor approach is it's dog
shit for this reason. You are talking
about how broken a financial system is.
Great. I agree. It is broken. And in the
same breath, you're trying to tell me that
tokenized assets of the dog shit broken
system that needs to be bailed out every
10 or 20 years. You're telling me you're
going to bring that on chain. And that's
good. That's like saying, hey, we
successfully figured out how to transport
AIDS into like into McDonald's burgers.
It's like, what? We don't want AIDS. Like
I don't, I personally, I'm okay. I don't
want AIDS. Like the disease. But if people
want it, then yeah, it's an incredibly
easy administration device is putting it
into a, like a McDonald's cheeseburger.
Sure. Like in the same way, it's like, oh
no, no, no, We're porting everything.
We're porting the digital, we're porting
the financial system into a digital one.
So you're porting the broken thing that
you've been trying to escape. That's
literally, that's, that's the logic. So
for me, I'm like, well, that's retarded.
I'm not having a bar of that shit. And so
like, there's, there's just too many, too
many opportunities that are, uh,
bedazzling MSTR. You can be everything.
Yes. That's what happens when you're first
to a whole new paradigm. If you're the
first to a country, yes, there's lots of
land for you to build on in the same way.
But the responsibility is to focus, which
is exactly what Saylor says. And he's not
doing it. And he's saying, oh, well, this
is all so close to each other. We may as
well. No, you're losing focus. You've got,
now I know he's losing focus. Cause I'm
now I'm like tweeting shit. And that's
just another thing to distract him because
another person's tweeting. That's unhappy.
It's like, we're trying to avoid all the
own goals. So I think Saylor has been
brilliant for Bitcoin, but I think
genuinely it just feels like it's getting
too Icarus. Like he's flying close to the
sun. He's dismissing the idea of proof of
reserves. Literally he's bashing, like
verbally bashing podcasters that challenge
his narrative. No, I'm not having a bar of
that shit. I don't have time for any of
that shit. Like personally, everyone else
has got heaps of time for it. But like, I,
like Anya, you do not understand my
disdain for money. I cannot stand it. It
is the biggest, it's worse than AIDS.
Literally. We spent, think about, think
about if money didn't exist, what
everyone's entire life would be like. Like
literally their entire life. Bitcoin has a
chance to wipe money off the face of the
earth. As we know it. And that to me is
just such a gigantic responsibility that
we need to absorb. Like my kids, kids
aren't going to be able to have the same
impact that we have today. Like, yeah, I
don't know. I don't know. And look, I'm
out of touch. I'm a Bitcoin boomer. I get
that. I know I'm out of touch, but I don't
think that the requests are that
unreasonable. And if they are, I feel like
Bitcoin is kind of strayed a bit too far.
It needs to be more hostile, more
demanding, more disciplined. Again, this
is like hearing your grandmother say that
she doesn't like, you know, the offspring
music, you know, offsprings music. I love
offspring. They were mad, but I'm sure my
grandma would think they're trash. Same
thing. I might, I might be a bit out of
touch. So yeah. Anyway, sorry. I just want
to ask you what you, when you said like
that Bitcoin removes the need for money,
I'm paraphrasing now, but I just, I always
thought of Bitcoin as an improvement on
money, not necessarily replacing them.
Just say that. Yeah. Let me go with that
one. So when you earn money, the reason
why you have to earn money today and then
more next year and then more next year is
because it keeps growing. Like it keeps
the supply base, keeps growing. So you
need to keep up now with Bitcoin. It's a
fixed supply. So once you get some, if
everyone sort of follows the same MO,
which is buy, hold and use it whenever it
makes sense. What that does, that's like,
it's like having a fruit tree where you
plant your fruit. And this is why it's so
perplexing to us. It's just like anything
else. You plant your money in like fruit
and you just wait for it to grow. Like
people didn't buy fruits and veggies back
in the day. They grew it at home. That was
like, yeah, we grow it. And we have, and
they don't go, Oh, we need tomatoes. It's
like, no, no, no. We'll get what we're
given. Tomato season is September through
November. And this season is strawberries.
So we're, you know, what's in season is
what we get. And so with money, money is
kind of like that. You should earn it
once. And we're just so used to the idea
of being on the treadmill. Like it's a
tread money's a treadmill. It shouldn't be
a treadmill. It should be, um, the
opposite where you earn it once and your
money grows for you because it's valuable,
not because you earn more of it. And so
that's kind of the dream is that Bitcoin
is can buy Bitcoin and the natural
evolution of Bitcoin with a fixed supply
is to grow because it can't go backwards
because the supply can't get diluted. So
over time, you're going to have this
basically consistent adoption or growth
over, you know, I say like 20 years time
sort of thing. Um, and that means that you
can kind of earn, but not have to
continuously earn. You don't have to earn
it every day because it's not getting
diluted so bad that you need to earn it
every day. You're you need to earn it and
keep earning it. But then it's up to you.
What's your definition of enough? And if
you have a definition of enough, because
most of us, to be honest on you, that's
like one of the biggest problems with
everything is that we don't have an idea
of what is enough. And we keep going for
more. And it's sort of like, you know, you
can earn $10 million and retire, or you
can earn $500 million and retire, or you
can not retire and keep earning $3
billion. Like it's just up to the person.
And usually the person that's still in the
race for that long means they don't know
what they want and they don't have
anything else. And then it becomes like
this identity crisis and all this sort of
shit, because who they are is solely
attached to their performance at work or
in their career, professional career,
which is totally fine. But yeah, the idea
is that it's a fixed supply that you
acquire once, and then you can use many
times, as opposed to money we acquire many
times and you use it once. And so that
kind of flip, flip the script that I don't
know if that directly answers your
question, but I think it's sort of in line
with sort of a half answer. Will you take
that? Yeah. So it's like you basically,
you're saying today's money is very
inflationary. And the reason why people
feel like if there's never enough is
because that ground is moving below
beneath them and they just literally know
like how fast they need to run. Yeah. But
yeah, so you're not saying like there will
be no money as in like no medium of
exchange, no unit of account and no store
of value. It's more like not, it's going
to be deflationary that the goods and
services denominated in Bitcoin.
Hypothetically, we'll get cheaper over
time. Yeah, exactly. They'll get cheaper
time. Yeah, exactly. They'll get cheaper
over time, which means your output
professionally probably goes down. Money
will cease to, this is the biggest threat
to Bitcoin actually, which is apathy. So
the moment people don't care about money,
that's Bitcoin's biggest threat. And that
happens in a world. It's possible in our
lifetime, by the way, hear me out for a
sec, but money was invented because, yeah,
money was invented because we basically
needed a token for energy. Like, Hey, I
can't transport these 20 human beings to
you right now, but I can give you $200 to
pay your own 20 human beings to do
something. And that's what money was like,
this representation of this controller of
energy. But we're kind of, there's two
tracks running right now, which is the
financial track and the intelligence
track. And they're both demanding lots of
energy. So Bitcoin mining is demanding a
huge amount of energy. And AI is demanding
an astronomical amount as well. And so
what that's going to force is this huge
innovation in energy extraction. So right
now we burn oil and refine and shit. And
then that's how we power our cars. But in
the future, because we now have a carrot,
how do we get energy to be more efficient?
Well, we've got billions or trillions of
dollars going into AI. They're going to
want to figure out how to make, how to
make one kilowatt go further than it did,
you know, last year. So now we have a
carrot to optimize energy. So energy might
become, you know, this Nikola Tesla stuff
where we're just full control. All of it,
like oxygen, we're just pulling it out of
the air, thin air, just like electrifying
everything. That might be a thing. And the
amount of like pressure on these companies
to figure out energy for their own like
survival. Google has no energy. Meta has
no energy. Open AI has got no energy. No
one has any energy. Like it's literally
everyone's tapped out. Listen to this
friend of mine. He's doing a lot of the
contracting work or something for a lot of
the data centers going into New South
Wales. There is 18 data centers, all
fitted, not fitted, all paid, confirmed,
council approved, everything. To complete
those in the timeframe they're looking at,
which is the next four years, they will
need 8,000 electricians. There's only 4
,000 electricians in New South Wales. So
they need 50% more. So what's going to
happen? Like they're going to, this is
going to be a problem consistently. So
they're going to need to optimize energy a
lot more. So bringing it back to energy
and money and will money cease to exist.
If energy gets so, uh, like if energy goes
the way of information, which is where we,
the age of information, we took literally
IBM had one megabyte, like mainframe. That
was the size of like your room, my room or
whatever. Now it's like a fingernail is
the size of one terabyte, which is like a
million of those rooms or whatever. So the
compression has been astronomical. And I
think energy will follow that same sort of
innovation path where it was like, you
know, we used to burn a barrel of oil and
get this, or we used to have one gigawatt
got us this much energy output. We'll
optimize that because we have a carrot
too. So IBM had a huge carrot to make the
transistor and silicon chips and all that
sort of stuff to make this one megabyte
mainframe. That's the size of a bedroom
into something that is basically, you
know, tiny. Uh, I think energy will go the
same way because of the AI requirements.
Now, if bringing it back to what you said,
if that happens, then energy becomes less
sexy or whatever, just the same way photos
are not as sexy now. And I don't mean like
the appearance of a photo. I mean like the
idea of being able to capture and store a
photo. We take that totally for granted.
Now it's like, remember back in the day
with it. And you had like 30 on this
disposable camera. Oh my God. Look at
this. This is so cool. Okay. Speaking of
that, I literally went the other day and
bought this, which is, it's a Kodak
minicam. So it's like the same old cam,
like, but it fits on a key ring and it's
got a screen on it. It's the funniest
thing ever. I literally bought it just to
like support Kodak. Cause I was like, pour
one out for the dead guy. Does it have
like a little film rolling side that you
have to develop? No, I wish, I wish it
only has the only thing it's, it's just
got to like an SD card slot and a charging
slot. Yeah. So, but it's cool. I thought
it was a, it's a cool idea. So, so anyway,
basically the Bitcoin's biggest nemesis is
energy efficiency. Um, and like, once that
becomes super easy, people will sort of
not subscribe value to money because money
is the proxy in the middle because I can't
teleport energy anywhere. So as energy
becomes more optimized, I think money
becomes less and less needed or appealing
and stuff like that. So it's almost like
if Bitcoin does its job really well, it
should fall on its own sword in a way.
Yeah. You know how Bitcoin's been vilified
because of the energy use? I actually saw
recently, I actually saw recently on, um,
on LinkedIn of all places, Jimmy song let
out, put out a short survey to the
LinkedIn audience asking if energy use in
AI is a problem. And it only had three
multiple choice. And the worst one was,
yes, it's going to boil the oceans. And
the middle one was a neutral. And then the
third option was paraphrasing, but
something along the lines of, well, it's
necessary because of the value that you
get out of it, um, is, is enormous. And
guess what? The LinkedIn audience voted as
the biggest. Yep. Do you want to guess?
I'm going to guess that they said it's
necessary because of the output. Yep. Yep.
Yep. Yep. Isn't it curious how they think
that way, but not of Bitcoin. Yeah, I
think, well, this is, and this is one of
the things which is interesting because I
was saying this to someone recently, but
like Bitcoin, Bitcoin used to have all the
attention in when it came to energy. And
now AI is slowly sort of nudging its way
into that conversation. So the problem
with that is, and just like the people on
LinkedIn said, is that, oh, it quantifies
itself through the necessity and the
output that AI gives everyone. So if you
think about miners, they're all competing
for electricity and in the future. So
imagine five years from now, we've had
billion dollar companies fire 70% or 30%
of their team to restructure everything
around AI. We don't need a product team.
We don't need analysts. We don't need that
bubba or around AI. The government's all
got contracts with them. So in the future,
if there is a site, a mining site with a
lot of energy and a Bitcoin miner, like
iron goes up and they're like, oh, sick.
Yeah. Yeah. We'll pay for it. The
government will step in and be like,
sorry, we're using this for AI because we
need it. And the whole of Australia needs
it based on all the companies that lobby
that put us here in the first place. We
need to protect energy for AI or in the
same way, we're not allowed to hose our
cars in our driveways anymore. I don't
know about you, but in New South Wales,
like we're not allowed to do that. I think
that's fine. Like, I mean, yeah, yeah.
It's like in the same way, I don't see
that as oppression. I just see that as
like rationing resources correctly. And I
think that's sort of a fair thing. So in
the same way, I can see Bitcoin losing. If
it's not focused enough, it will lose to
that AI conversation. And so now if you're
a Bitcoin miner versus if you're a GP,
you, I mean, if you're AI, you know,
intelligence miner, and that basically
means you're just a data center of shit.
But basically, if you're mining
intelligence or processing intelligence,
you'll probably get more favorable
treatment. Um, and you might find the
Bitcoin mining, uh, has to pay a premium
per kilowatt or premium per, you know,
kilowatt hour on their electricity rate.
That feels like a pretty reasonable path
to expect to come up. But if many of the
companies in the government, many of the
companies are already in relation with the
government, which is no problem, by the
way, I want my government to be more
efficient. That's good for them. And
they're going to be happier. The more
they're performing, they'll probably be
happier, I think. So I get that
reasonably. Now, obviously I want Bitcoin
to win, but you know, if Bitcoin doesn't
know who it is, then that's its biggest
worry. Like many people are going to kind
of, yeah, basically Bitcoin's not focused.
And if it's not focused, it can lose
arguments in really important places. So,
you know, if you've got two people trying
to, you know, evangelize Bitcoin and one
guy is saying one thing and the other guy
is saying another, and then some dudes
talking about, you know, other stuff
that's coming or whatever, it's like, it's
noise. Like people, people are already
struggling to adopt the value proposition
of hard money. Um, and people think that
they need to push more features, uh, to
make it more adoptable. Um, but I think
it's education that becomes the, the key
influencer, uh, for, for new adoption. But
yeah, I think it's a tricky battle when
you, when you look at energy and now
Bitcoin, like AI totally ate web three up.
So web three was crypto and all this sort
of stuff. They totally scooped it up
because they just didn't, they didn't move
fast enough to add value as fast as AI
could. And Bitcoin poses is, it can be put
in a similar position, unfortunately. Um,
especially if the Bitcoin community does
not think that focusing on money is
important. It's just going to become
another everything app and no one has room
for another everything app. Now, if you
were saying every single person in the
country is dependent on this, that's a
different story because now the government
has voting rights and voting concerns and
stuff like that. But because Bitcoin
doesn't know what it wants to be now,
apparently, um, it probably can't win in
those conversations. I don't think. Um,
yeah, just logically, like if I'm a
government that is using AI, I'm going to
give AI every special treatment I can. And
to the Bitcoin people, I'll say, no,
you've been nothing but a ball ache to
deal with. The end. And that's just
business as usual. And then everyone can
complain about it. But yeah, I don't know.
I just think it's hard to sell many things
at once. And Bitcoin doesn't have a good
enough value proposition across the globe
or a unified value proposition anymore.
Um, that makes it difficult to grow from,
I think. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know
what, what to think of that. Um, it's this
neutral protocol that we all attach
meaning to, right? And we kind of agree
with that. Yeah. It really is. Um, yeah.
And so far it's proven us wrong many times
and it's just kept doing its own thing. I
would love to think that, yeah, we can
come out of this funk that we're all in at
the moment. I just, yeah, it just really
feels proud. I, I a hundred percent agree
on you. I like, I just don't like thinking
about it. Like, that's the beauty of
Bitcoin. You don't have to think because
it's on a trajectory that's sort of fixed,
you know, but now once people start trying
to change the trajectory, it's like, oh,
now I've got to think about this again.
Oh, you know, we all, we're all better
off, smarter people, happier people when
we don't have to think about money. So I
just find like, we want to give people
every reason to know that it's not going
to change and then sleep on that. Sorry, I
interrupted you. No, you didn't interrupt
it. You just continued my thoughts, which
I had finished. Nice. Yes. But I do want
to like, I want to end the podcast on a
positive note and something hopeful and
bullish, but I do want to circle back
before that. I want to circle back on the
Danny and Sailor podcast, which I thought
was quite a necessary conversation to
have. And I can't even remember what the
question that Danny asked. I can't
remember the wording. I do remember
Sailor's response being that, you know,
the Bitcoin has, Bitcoin has had a habit
of eating their own young. And at the time
I do. I did think that the, his reaction
almost outweighed the question in a, you
know, in a way, like I was listening and
zoning out a little bit. And then all of a
sudden that perked up, I was like, well,
what's going on with the here? Well, why,
why are we getting mad? Yeah. Yeah.
Literally. It's like, what? Hold on. What?
What did he ask? That was so bad. I can't
remember. So he said, do you think that
this is a winner? Something paraphrasing,
but the thing that sort of lit the fire
was, which is 100% warranted. Sailor,
you're the biggest guy in the room. Do you
think this is a winner? Take all market?
No, Danny. I reject the premise of your
question. It's like, bro, are you fucking
nuts? That's the most like fair question
on planet earth. You know, who doesn't
like hearing that question? The dude who's
counting on every mofo to be a treasury
company, to keep his bags pumped. So he
wants, so the reason why Bitcoin, I mean,
Sailor would have got the shits at this.
And no, I'm not Michael Sailor. I'm
Michael Dunwood, but I, I can guarantee
that his answer lives somewhere. In this
neighborhood. Okay. I'm talking to Danny.
Danny is known to have qualms or not
qualms, but just uncertainties with the
whole Bitcoin treasury narrative. So
walking into that, I've already got a bone
to pick whenever this topic comes up. Now,
Danny says, rightfully so. Do you think
this is a winner take all situation? Now,
if I'm saying that it means that a lot of
other companies will not be able to do the
same thing that, you know, I'm implying
that many companies can't be successful as
sailors. That feels fair. Sailor says, I
reject the premise of your question and
everyone should own Bitcoin. Firstly, no,
that's not how you build a system on
values. Like Bitcoin, the thing that
Bitcoin has that the other monetary system
doesn't have is aligned values. So no, I
don't want 20 billion people holding it.
If 20 billion people are trying to fuck it
over, I want 10 or 10,000 people that are
aligned with the values. Like that's how
you grow. You grow through finding a
targeted audience that you can add value
to, not by just spraying and praying to
everyone. That's how you lose focus. And
so for sailor to say like start brain. So
the question was, is it a winner take all?
Sailor has like an absolute period over
that question for some reason, and then
just goes spare. And he gets frustrated
because he's like, how dare you? Are you
going to insult everyone else for buying
Bitcoin and trying to do better? That's
not what he's saying. And don't make it
sound like that. What he's saying is, are
you going to scoop the pot or not? And
every other marketing material of, of
everything is, Oh, economies of scale.
They can borrow more money than the
smaller guy. Like it's a legitimate
question, but sailor just didn't like it
because he had the thumb up his ass that
day or something. I don't know, but didn't
make much sense. And his answer was not
even an answer. His answer was the most
defensive slop I've ever heard in my
entire life. Now I felt sorry for Danny. I
wanted to walk in there and give him a
hug. He constantly saying like, he's like,
Oh yeah, I'm not attacking you. I'm not,
Danny. I reject the premise. Oh no, I'm
not attacking you, bro. Like chill. He's
like, no, what a stupid. And you're like,
mate, unreal. Unreal. That's the, that's
the leader of the coin. That's the captain
of the team. You don't hear messy talking
about that. You don't hear Ronaldo talking
like that. You don't hear Johnny Hills
talking like that. Hell, you don't hear
Pauline Hanson talking that way to people
like, bro, mate. So anyway, like, yeah,
that left a pretty shitty taste in my
mouth. One, because it's insulting two,
because it's evading the actual question.
And three, like fucking grow up. You're a
grown man with a billion dollar company.
Get hard. Like expect hard questions. It's
not just posting memes on Twitter and
watching your likes go up. Like get ready
for hard questions. If you don't like
them, step aside and let someone with the
stones become the CEO of the company who
can take the hard questions. It feels
fair. It feels fair. And now if I've
gotten the whole situation completely
wrong, I'll be the first to apologize. But
all I saw was fair question, retarded
answer, confused hot podcast host. And I
think rightfully so. I think everyone else
saw it too. And I don't think I've heard
him say apologize for that either or give
an answer. So both of those, there's two
shots at redemption on goal. If he wants
them. He's yet to be fair to say, like he
did not walk away from that interview.
Like he finished it. So I have. Fair.
Fair. I agree with that. Thanks for
pointing that out. That's fair. I do like
that. And I've also seen him have a quite
spicy exchange with Saifedina Moose as
well at one stage about credit in general.
And yeah, like I would still like to
interview him one day. I wonder if he
would be interested in my podcast because
I tend to be quite critical of fiat and
one of his 21 commandments, if you will, I
think number 13, sorry, rule 13 is don't
be anti fiat, be pro Bitcoin. And I'm
like, well, I want to be both. Yeah. Yeah.
But no, I think, I think it's, I think
that's a fair point. He did stick it out.
But like, let's just be responsible to
some degree, as responsible as we can be.
Hey, what's up? I didn't know. I'm waving
too. Sorry. No, you're right. You're
right. The, like the irresponsibility of
it is like, dude, if that was a
shareholder call, bro, the stock would be
40% down in a heartbeat. Like, yeah, it's
just, look, don't get me wrong. I'm not a
sailor hater, but I'm, I'm definitely
going to point out the behaviors that can
make him better. And if the behaviors are
bringing down the community, like, yeah,
let's all level up. No one hates sailor.
We just want you to do better. And like,
yeah, that's not a complaint. People want
me to do better. People want you to do
better. We all want each other to do
better. And I think it's, we work for the
coin. That's the thing. We work for the
coin. We don't work for anyone else. So
make sure you're adding value to the coin.
If you're not, then start. If you, if you
are great, you probably won't hear from
anyone. It's like, yeah, I don't know. I
anyone. It's like, yeah, I don't know. I
don't know. I feel so negative talking
about this. We, we, yeah. Okay. Well,
let's, let's turn it around. What makes
you bullish about Bitcoin? Are you still
bullish? I'm bullish. I'm always bullish
on Bitcoin, but I'm less bullish than I've
ever been probably. And I'll tell you why.
There's just no alignment. The number one
thing that Bitcoin did really, really well
that attracted me to it was it said no to
everything. It doesn't change. It's not
changeable. And so when I see people like
core 30 last year, trying to change stuff
and the community just being so chill with
it, because half of the people have bags
associated with it. I was like, that's not
what I subscribe to. I wanted to subscribe
to the heavyweight champ that said he's
undefeated. He does never does what anyone
wants him to do. He only does the same
thing every day. That's literally what I
invested in. The thing that doesn't
change. And so I think finding that
alignment is important. Now, one of the
things I will say that is a good thing
when the chips are down, it usually is a
great time for reflection for individuals.
And so like, that's when people start
looking about what decisions they make,
where did their risk profile get looser or
whatever, or like what, what mistakes did
they made in their, let's call it a four
year cycle. Cause remember Bitcoin is just
like crops. It's not a company. It's like
crops, which is the weather determines
when we harvest. And that's the same way
with Bitcoin. It goes in four year cycles
and you're at the mercy of the weather,
like a farmer, but the, let's say the on
chain weather, halvings, things like that.
They're sort of like seasons. Um, and so,
so I think, I think there's a lot of
reflection to be had. I think some of the
positives, you know, I saw the strategic
reserve bill proposal thing. And one of
the things I was really excited to see is
like 20 year lockup. So that they have to
keep locking them up and these things will
be time locked and all this kind of stuff.
That's really powerful for instilling
confidence into the community. And if
you're a country, you're citizens. Guys,
we're trying to take care of it. We know
we fucked up. We know we're in a hole, but
we're trying to take care of it. People
don't expect silver bullet answers. People
just want to know that people are doing
their best to find solutions. I think, and
I think you can't expect a perfect
solution for everything, you know, in the
same way, like, um, yeah, perfection is
not the goal, you know, give a shit and
intent is more the goal, I think. And so,
so that direction where it goes, I don't
know. But I, so I think, I think I'm
bullish on the outcomes of this non
bullish scenario that we're in. We're all
in this non bullish mindset, but usually
diamonds are made under pressure. So let's
call this the pressure time. And we're
about to sprinkle a whole bunch of
diamonds out from, from that. I think. I
love it. I love it. I've had a series of,
of guests on recently and, and yeah, you
can just feel the sentiment has definitely
changed during the bear market. You know
what? It's all going to be, okay. For
anyone listening, look, there's problems,
but Bitcoin is 18 years old or 17 years
old. I don't know a single 17 year old
person that doesn't have problems or
didn't have problems. I'm as a former 17
year old person myself. I remember having
heaps of problems as a 17 year old. So
these are natural. Um, but again, it's not
what happens. It's how we respond to it.
Uh, and that's for life in general as
well. You know, we can all get hit by a
car and some people recover. Well, some
people don't recover. Well, same way.
Bitcoin's taken a hit. You know, how do we
bounce back? Do we bounce back by yelling
at each other or do we bounce back by
reflecting and optimizing and growing? Um,
who knows? Who knows? But I think, look,
Bitcoin's been going 17 years. I can see
it going 20 years. Um, fingers crossed.
Oh, oh shit. Oh shit. Oh shit. Oh shit.
Please.
I love it. What's your set? What are you
most bullish on at the moment, Anya? And
what are you most bearish on in this
space? The bear, I'll start with the
bearishness. The bearishness is just the
sentiment. Um, yeah, like 18.6 year theory
or something. Have you heard that? That's,
that's, that's going to period of
stagnation. So the next number of years in
Bitcoin are going to be super dull. Um, so
that's one thing. And then just every,
just this general sentiment, everyone's,
no one can agree. Um, yeah, the price
isn't helping. No, price isn't helping.
Agreement, misalignment. Yeah. Um, which
again, there was, Knut made a great point.
He's like, you don't want Bitcoiners to
agree. Like, and, and that's true. We
always need to be disagreeable because
like you said, iron sharpens iron, but you
know, in a bear market, when your
sentiment is already low, the price isn't
doing this thing. You're like, you can
really start to feel the weight of it. But
what I'm bullish on is the people. And I
definitely see new talent coming forth.
People still, um, even in a bear market,
showing up to events, continuing with
education, understanding, deepening their
understanding. That's what I'm bullish on.
And I really hope that, that, um, we turn
it around. Look, I reckon the ship will
turn around. I definitely think so. But I
think, um, yeah, I think that's fair. And
it is, it is so impressive. Like the
educators in the space, like it's unreal.
Like some people are just like, they are
like my goal in life was always to become
a teacher, but I was like, Oh, I had like,
I need to make money first to, before I
can be a teacher. Um, but seeing some of
the work that the people in the space do,
it's just like, it's literally like the
Lord's work almost like they don't have,
they don't have to do it. Like even like
you like to interviewing, but like that's
teaching people it's sharing knowledge.
Like, because now even like, so someone
watches this and they hear what I have to
say. And they're like, that guy's
retarded. I'm not listening to anything.
Great. But that's still education. Like,
do you know what I mean? So even if you're
like, even if I've got the wrong opinion,
if it helps someone find the right
opinion, then that's fantastic. And I
think that's generally the educator's
motivation is just to keep the opinions
flow. Sorry. Yeah. No, no, no, no.
Continue. I have a question. I'm dying to
ask you. Yeah. Okay. So when you say you
want to always wanted to be a teacher,
what age group? Probably, uh, years like
three to six. I reckon. Or like, yeah,
class like year three to six. So like,
maybe like nine to 14 year olds. You know
why I'm laughing? Why? Because you swear
so much. What? You swear so much. I know.
I know. Sorry. Yeah. Well, that's going to
be, I'm going to be a terrible teacher. I
understand. Teaching that demographic
would be very interesting. Yeah. My dad's
a truck driver. So he'd like, imagine his
language.
Anyway, sorry. I interrupted you. What,
what were you, what did you want to finish
on? Oh, I was just talking about swearing
to 10 year olds. Okay. No, I don't know.
But like, yeah, I mean, I think that age
group would be good because firstly, I
don't think I'm smart enough to teach high
school kids. I'll probably be smarter than
I am, but like the young kids, I reckon
there's like little life things that you
can teach them, you know, about hard work
or discipline or, and these are things I'm
trying to figure out too, by the way, I'm
not saying I figured that out, but I'm
just saying like, yeah, I wish there was a
teacher that sort of taught me a bit more
of reality. Like, you know, literally like
basic things like taxes, you know,
manners, etiquette. Like, I, I feel like I
got taught, obviously my language is
terrible, but, you know, like shaking
hands, politely looking someone in the
eye, like just little things like that. I
feel like there's little life skills that
you can help impose. And also just give
people encouragement. Cause a lot of these
kids are sort of getting, you know, the
bare minimum teacher, the teacher that
can't wait to go home and watch Netflix
and doesn't really care about the kids.
And then you get these beautiful teachers
that are, they, all they do is care about
their kid, like their class, and they
devote everything to them. And those are
the ones that like literally create
inspiration and like faith to young boys
or men, young boys or girls. I do sort of
think about in the guy's perspective a
little more one, because I am a guy. So
that's a biased opinion, but also like,
you know, men are growing up in a world
and it's not an easy world for anybody,
but I'm just saying like statistically, I
just think it's so petrifying the idea
that. Okay. What in Australia, and you
listen to this is so cooked every three
hours and 20 minutes or three hours, 40
minutes. A dude takes their own life in
the UK, the largest killer under 40 for
under 40 males. It's not diabetes. It's
not cancer, which is cancer from smoking
lung cancer. That is literally monetized
addiction to breathing. Like that is a
really hard thing to be like killing more
people than. And suicide's it. And I'm
like, Oh man, all these guys out there,
like guys, some guys can't sit at the end
of their own bed by themselves and not
trust themselves to just hurt themselves.
Like that's so bad. It's bad as well for
like kids because kids need guys, like as
in parental influences, girls need guys,
guys need girls. Like we're all on the
same team. This is the crazy part. We are
all on the same team. Yet we're all
finding a way to not be on the same team.
And sometimes I feel like that human
instinct is almost clouded out by society
or societal noise. Like, you know, if you
see someone in a hard spot, your natural
inclination is to help them or like extend
a hand. Like, Hey man, are you okay, dude?
Like whatever. But like, you know, now
people don't want to even help people off
the street because they're like, if I
touch you, I can get sued. So I remember
going to, I was in a marriage. I think it
was in like, I can't remember where it
was, maybe DC or Boston or something. And
some person like fell over on the street
and everyone just stood there like this,
like, like it wasn't me. I didn't touch
him. You can't sue me. I was like, would
you look, just look at this scenario. Like
we're, remember we're human beings on a
rock in the middle of the universe. We
have never met a neighbor ever. And like,
for some reason we think it's mad to like
shit on each other, drop bombs on each
other and not help each other up guys.
Let's get with the program. We can't win
any universe Olympics like this. We've got
to be cut. Chop, chop. Let's go. Same
page. Everyone. I don't like it. Well, too
bad. You're going to like, like, Oh, I
don't want to stand next to them too bad.
You know, it's like, we all have to eat
our vegetables, by the way. I cannot stand
eating vegetables personally, but yes,
it's, um, I just, I just hope we can get
along and Bitcoin has a chance to give
everyone the same thing to get behind
because you know, like it's like the
internet, right? The internet or English
or, um, Bitcoin has a chance for that. So,
you look at what's the prior, like the,
the thing that becomes the global thing is
not the thing. It's the second best thing.
And what I mean by that is the most spoken
language in the world is Mandarin, but the
most, uh, global language is the most
commonly spoke second language, which,
well, maybe Spanish is bigger than
Mandarin, but, but English is the most
common second language. And that's how you
standardize because it's not concentrated
to one region. It's distributed across
many. Um, and Bitcoin is the same for
money. It's like, if you meet a Bitcoin,
whether they're from Brazil, Kuwait, Iraq,
or America, or Canada, you're like, Hey,
you're always like, it's like, that's what
religion used to be back in the day. It
was like, Hey, JC, JC. Like, that's what,
it was an alignment of values where it's
like, I don't know you, but I know that
you're probably not going to steal, you
know, you're probably not going to like
whatever the 10 commandments are. It's
sort of like, Oh, cool. All right. Yeah. I
don't know you personally very well, but I
know like the broad strokes, like the
pixelated version, which is you're sort of
cool with these 10 commandments and sort
of following them. So I can leave my phone
on my, you know, side desk at night and
not think you're going to come into my
room and rob me or something. Maybe it
will. Fuck it. I don't know. Maybe. You
know, I shouldn't have trusted that
priest. He's come in and he's, he's stolen
all my shit. No, I love that. I can
totally see you being a teacher. And I
think it's one of the most noble
professions that, you know, a person can,
can take on. It's such a beautiful thing.
And agreed. Agreed. Yeah. Really cool.
Wait, I want to, I've got a question for
you. What's one thing you want to see out
of Bitcoin before the end of the year? And
what, what's one thing you want to see out
of you in terms of your Bitcoin journey?
And what's one thing you want to see out
of Bitcoin before the end of the year? If
any, maybe there's nothing. Yeah. Um, one
thing I would like to see out of Bitcoin,
um, by the end of the year that we resume
the bull market. I know some people think
we have, I still think we're going to
bottom out around October. Um, but what do
I know? Um, that's just my antenna. Right.
Um, so I would like to see it rebound. Um,
and one thing out of me would just be to
continue learning. Um, I'm noticing a lot
lately. I'm trying to investigate where
I'm ideologically inconsistent or where my
beliefs and my knowledge kind of
contradicts, um, um, um, each other. So
that's what I'm kind of going through at
the moment and exploring that. So, yeah.
Good for you. Yeah. I think, you know
what? I think a lot of people could use
the same myself included. Where does my
beliefs and actions contradict each other?
All that stuff. Yeah. I think that's a
very good point. And I think for me
personally, I'm, I'm going to be thinking
the same shit now too. Let's do it. Yeah.
Let's go. Let's go. We can have a redo
next year and talk about what we
identified. Well, I mean, like, so I'm not
a carnivore. So I think if I own Bitcoin,
I've got to become a carnivore or
something. It's like, yeah, I mean, my, my
diet shit anyway, it's basically meat and
cheese. So it may as well be carnivore. I
eat like a seven year old spaghetti
bolognese or like chicken nuggets. It's
terrible. Yeah. It's really difficult.
Macaroni cheese. I can see you totally
eating macaroni cheese. Dude, you were
flying the wall at my house. A hundred
percent. Mac and cheese all day. No
nutrients in sight. All right. Well, thank
you so much for your time, Michael. Love
having you on and having this chat and
yeah, we'll pick it up again sometime.
Awesome. Thanks so much, Anya. It's about
to check out that.