Tales from The Engine Room

In this episode of Tales from the Engine Room, host Caroline Beavon interviews Jo Harrison, a illustrator and graphic designer.

Jo provides a fresh and intimate look into the realities of working in a creative and dynamic industry.
You'll learn how Jo:
  • Started out as a sign maker.
  • Manages her client effectively
  • Is trying to make her life as rich as possible
This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in the freelancing world, looking for insights and inspiration from a seasoned professional.

Find out more about Jo's projects at https://jo-harrison.co.uk

What is Tales from The Engine Room?

Meet the people who make up The Skiff a coworking community in central Brighton, Sussex, UK. Interviewed by Caroline Beavon.

[00:00:00] Caroline Beavon (host): Hello and welcome to Tales from the Engine Room where we meet the people who make up the skiff, a co-working community in Central Brighton.
[00:00:08] Jo Harrison: I'm getting more and more confident at saying to the client, no, I see what you're trying to do, but I think this would be better like this, because they come to me for the expertise.
[00:00:17] Caroline Beavon (host): I'm Caroline Beavon, a digital storyteller, and I'm a member of the Skiff too. Across this series of interviews, we'll meet freelancers, remote workers, solopreneurs, and small team leaders. Asking them the question, what are you working on today?
This week we meet illustrator and graphic designer Joe Harrison.
[00:00:38] Jo Harrison: So today I am, I've been doing quite a few different things. I've had a few hats on today, so I've been making sure the audio for an animation the voiceover correlates with the text that I've put in the document. So not super exciting but important. And then passing that onto the animator.
So I've done all the graphics for that. And I'm working on a print document for a membership organization. And if I get a bit of time later, I'm gonna be doing some illustration for a website I'm working on.
[00:01:13] Caroline Beavon (host): So it's interesting you just talked about the various things you're working on today, which pretty much sum up graphic design, everyone thinks that it's either super glamorous or super super dull.
And actually it's a real mix of both, isn't it? Yeah. You have to do. Really interesting, exciting things, but then there's so much just checking.
[00:01:28] Jo Harrison: Yes, A lot of checking and some stuff as well. It's like I wear different hats a lot cause I do things for, oh, the other thing I was doing today was making sure that the resolution for an image that's gonna be printed massive for a trade show was, y'know, good enough quality for something that's gonna be really big. So, and this is gonna be like a six meter by three meter backdrop. So yeah, so I work in print, like documents annual reports, blah, blah, blah. But I also do like signage printings design signage prints. So that can be a six meter by three meter exhibition stand.
And then I work on website stuff. So you're looking at pixels rather than millimeters. Different color profiles and that kind of thing. And then also illustrations, which could be used for print and web. So yeah, I'm all over the place basically.
[00:02:16] Caroline Beavon (host): So this Stuff, and I mean, I, I work in, in graphic design.
And print gives me the fear. We've had a conversation this week asking you to help me about with print, because just if it's for the, if it's for the web or if it's for social media, it can be changed, it can be corrected. It can be changed. Print, especially like a six meter. Thing. Yeah, you get that wrong and. it's a huge, huge thing. So how, first of all, how, how do you deal with that? How do you, have you been doing it so long that it's just second nature or?
[00:02:45] Jo Harrison: I'm, I'm quite lucky actually because I started, my first paid design job was working for a sign makers a vinyl sign makers. So, and I actually wasn't employed to a designer. I was a sign maker. I wasn't very good at it.
[00:03:01] Caroline Beavon (host): Like, hand(made) signs?
[00:03:02] Jo Harrison: Yeah. I used to. You know, take a toolbox with me to a garage and, and vinyl the side of a van. I, you know, we used to stand out in the snow putting stuff on vans, putting up fascias, window graphics, all kinds of things. And then we started off mostly vinyl and then we started to get into more sort of large format printing.
We originally started doing large format printing on this stuff that only printed things 12 inches wide. And so if you wanted something massive, we had to do kind of, You know, roles and roles of it, and then join it on site. Or you'd, you know, graphic up a facial and then someone would go and install it.
So we did lots of stuff like that. And sometimes if you made a mistake with that, it was, it could cost a fortune. And I did make some quite big mistakes. Everybody does. Yeah. But also, you know, I'm, you know, someone says, oh, can you put a sticker on something? I'm like, yeah, can I go get squeegy out?
Yeah. So, yeah, so my, I started in kind of in print and large format, right? So I'm not as daunted by it cuz that's how I began.
[00:04:02] Caroline Beavon (host): So, right. So, So that first job they're doing as a sign maker mm-hmm. Was that straight from university or how, what was your journey to that?
[00:04:08] Jo Harrison: Yeah, it was before, before university, so yeah, said I did my A levels and then I did a foundation course and then just kind of circumstances and money dictated that I couldn't go to university just yet. So I thought, I know I want to be really creative. I'll go and I'll just do a boring job and then I'll be really inspired to, you know, Do stuff.
So I thought, I worked in H&M and I was like, no, I'm so bored that actually
[00:04:29] Caroline Beavon (host): there's bored and then there's bored.
[00:04:30] Jo Harrison: Yes. I'm so bored that I just, I'm really depressed. So I looked for something more creative, and a friend of mine who I had gone to school with was working in the sign shop just around the corner from where I worked, and I said, if, is there anything, any jobs going?
He goes, well, as. So the luck would have it. We are actually hiring, so yeah. So I took my CV in and we got on and I, cause I already knew Alan and we'd both, both done art school together. Yeah. So I got the job there and did that for two years and then I went to university, right. Did visual culture at Brighton.
Mm-hmm. University and then off after. Sort of maybe a couple of weeks after I left there, I got a job in the printers on Grand Parade, which was interesting job also whilst teaching at the university. So on the one hand I'd be setting an essay or marking essays for graphic students, and then the next day one of them would come in with a, the memory stick and say, oh, I want the same ....
So, you know, It was a bit of a it. I think it possibly undermined my authority somewhat, but I did like working in the printers. It was quite cool. We got to go to gigs and things and
[00:05:26] Caroline Beavon (host): Okay. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah. That's cool. Cause you were doing all the gig posters, I'm guessing.
[00:05:29] Jo Harrison: Yeah, and we knew the promoters and stuff and the guy who owned the business, he was a promoter as well, so we got to go to some really good stuff.
Yeah, and I really like doing that and I, and I'm off the back of that working with the main designer there. He showed me how to use Illustrator. And so everywhere I worked I learned a bit new software and then I branched out and went freelance later that year or the year after. Whiles still working there.
It was at one point. And I was also working at a hospice doing workshops with people in the day hospice. So, I kind of, there was one point I had three or four jobs, but all relatively, and, and I worked in a bookshop as well, so I was kind of doing creative.
[00:06:05] Caroline Beavon (host): Creative adjacent.
[00:06:06] Jo Harrison: Yes, exactly. So, Kind of just kind of just got lots of different skills and I kind of, it's all been by accident.
Really. Wow. But yeah, so I can now say, look, I can do this. I, you know, I have experience in signage, print web, because then I became friends with a guy, a web developer, and he was a, a friend of my ex-partner and And he, his mate who taught him to do it. So then they taught me how to do stuff. So I did it, I did WordPress websites for, it was as well.
[00:06:34] Caroline Beavon (host): And these, but these skills now, it means that you are incredibly well placed for a client to come to you and say, help us with this thing. We've got a, a campaign coming up, or we need help with all these different bits of bobs. And you can advise and it, even if you are, you are just being asked to do graphics, you know where the destination of these things. So you know what's gonna work on a website as opposed to print. So, you know, all this stuff.
[00:06:54] Jo Harrison: Yeah, I know all the different files to, to provide them with. I know, you know, I can, and I can advise them about stuff as well. So this will work here, but not there. Yeah. I would do this and, and you know, and I'm getting more and more confident at saying to the client, no i, this is, I, I see what you're trying to do, but I think this would be better like this because they come to me for the expertise. And it's very easy to defer to people who are saying, I want this, this, this, and this. And trying to accommodate it. Even if, you know, and I think this is where experience comes in even, and you sometimes you'll try really hard to say, yeah, okay, yeah. Okay, okay. We can do all that. We can do all that. And then, and then kind of, you know, kind of killing yourself, trying to do it rather than going No. Actually, this should be a, this page document. This should be a microsite, not just a page. You know, this should be this kind of, this should be a pop-up sign rather than, you know, like a banner, that kind of thing.
So, and it's, and it's nice when you know, as long as, as long as what you're saying is, is correct and it doesn't bite you in the arse, because if you keep bending over backwards and, and providing things even to your own detriment mm-hmm. People will continue to, people will expect it in future.
And I think you do have to think about your own wellbeing, like, yeah.
[00:08:10] Caroline Beavon (host): And it's interesting, isn't it, as a freelancer and I, you know, I've been freelancing and you do, especially when you're first starting out, you make promises to clients because you want the work and you need the work, and you feel like if you don't make these promises and these claims, you won't get the work in.
Mm-hmm. So how do you manage. Clients, obviously it, it, it sounds like you go in now very much with a, I know what I'm talking about. Mm-hmm. Listen to me, this is, these are the kind of, these are the, these are the rules, but how, how do you manage clients and how many clients do you have on the go at one time? And I'm fascinated in that whole kind of juggling of clients and expectations.
[00:08:45] Jo Harrison: Sometimes I could be working on, sometimes I could be dealing with maybe six, seven clients at a time. Mm-hmm. And it might not be, It might just be that I'm quoting for one, I'm doing a piece for another. I'm consulting on a piece for one.
We've just started something. We're just finishing something, so it's, I'll be honest, I, I don't have a super. Structured schedule, I just know it'll work out. Mm-hmm. Because as a freelancer you don't like to turn down work cause you're like, well, what if they use somebody else and then Yeah. Go with them.
And it's, I try not to worry about it too much. They, I used to be very, very anxious about it and now I'm a bit more confident. And now actually I've got to the point where sometimes I have too much work and I know other freelancers and I passed off onto them, but I kind of manage the project. Yep. And if it's illustration, if there's a, an amount of it that's got, that's illustration because that will be my style. I will I will pass on design work, but I'll do, still do the illustrated content. Or I'll work with an illustrator who's happy to, you know, work in a set style. I'll do prep preparatory stuff so that then I can do the work type stuff.
But it's always very above board. It's always Making sure that if, if something was original work, if they would always get credit for that kind of thing, so.
[00:09:58] Caroline Beavon (host): Wow. Yeah. Okay. So how, so, how so in terms of working with other people, is that something you do very often, like collaborating with other designers?
[00:10:04] Jo Harrison: Yeah, I can, yeah. I really like, I really, really like working with other people cause I work on my own so much. So I really like it in terms of brainstorming and talking about ideas, but I also like working with other creatives in terms of also, you know, being able to pass on work to other people. Especially if, you know, someone's in a bit of a bind and they need extra work. So I've got A friend who's a graphic designer and some, you know, I'm able to pass on stuff that's not super duper exciting. It's like you know, print brochures and stuff like that. But you know, if you need the work, you need the work.
Absolutely. And, and it's really nice to be able to do that. And I also, it's an extra skill discovering that, you know, can manage a project and be responsible. So I, and I wasn't sure, I thought they, I did, I was worried at first that they might think, oh, she's being a bit like controlly about it cuz I was managing the client side of things.
They're like, no, no, no. We really like it that we don't have to deal with any of the emails and that we just do the work. You check it, you deal with it, and then you pay us. And I was like, oh, okay. That's great. Then, then that's, and it's a possibility that I might go forward and have a sort of a banner kind of things.
I'm obviously very upfront with clients that I work with the freelancers, but that, and I suppose that's how much the studio start, right?
[00:11:16] Caroline Beavon (host): Absolutely.
[00:11:16] Jo Harrison: So that is something I'm possibly looking to in the future. If, if the work. If the amount of work I've got stays the same mm-hmm. Or increases. So,
[00:11:26] Caroline Beavon (host): so that's, is that, is that a dream that it would be, you would be the only sort of static person and then you'd bring in freelancers as needed to kind of, or would you, would you imagine having staff at some point in the future?
[00:11:37] Jo Harrison: Like a I don't, I don't like the idea of having staff really, because I think I would want people to be able to have their freedom so they can go and work and do whatever they want. Also, I've seen other people who have done their dream job. And, and then they turn it into something like that where they have staff and everything.
Yep. So people who have been, you know, creative and then they've started a gallery or a shop or whatever, and they become, they become a shopkeeper, an admin person, whatever. And I don't want to do that. Like, people rise through the ranks. Yes. And then, you know, become a manager of people. And I, I still want to do the creative stuff, so of course.
That would, yeah, I would want there to just be as light a touch, but just to make sure that work still, the work that I, I do and the clients I have still come to me because I've got the capacity. Mm-hmm. Because I'm able to delegate, basically.
[00:12:24] Caroline Beavon (host): But also they're still hiring you because you are the, like almost the masthead of the, the whole thing.
And they know they, they trust you. And it sounds like trust, especially with the clients that you've got, is so important. Yeah. And they trust you and. If you can say, this is me. Yes. I bring in other people and we've got all these people that I work with and you know, we can do bigger projects and bigger scale and more projects, then it's a win-win. Right?
[00:12:45] Jo Harrison: Yeah.
[00:12:45] Caroline Beavon (host): That's great.
[00:12:46] Jo Harrison: Yeah, and I, I, you know, I work with other people who've got similar values and so, you know, working with organizations that deal with, you know, I think there's, I work. Exclusively, I don't think I've got a single client who's , who's profit making actually. Mm-hmm. Which is really nice.
[00:13:01] Caroline Beavon (host): That's really nice.
[00:13:02] Jo Harrison: So I've either, I've got a couple of events organizations, so they're kind of, you know, they're doing their inclusivity stuff and everything, but they're kind of neutral in terms of I dunno what the word is. Cause like activist or cause based or campaign based or whatever.
But then I've got a couple of theater companies who work with autistic and then disabled people and then the rest are the women's sector.
[00:13:24] Caroline Beavon (host): Phenomenal.
[00:13:24] Jo Harrison: So that's, that's everybody. And so, I couldn't possibly work with, I dunno, say if I worked with a graphic designer who I knew to be sexist, like Yeah.
You know, I, I, I'm, I'm, I, I'd be hard pressed to find how I would align myself if somebody would know that anyway.
[00:13:40] Caroline Beavon (host): The, because of the, the clients that you are working with, you'd need someone who, who goes above and beyond in terms of sensitivity. This is not just, you know, some. Hotshot designer just out of university maybe hasn't quite cut their teeth in terms of dealing with clients.
[00:13:53] Jo Harrison: Yeah.
[00:13:54] Caroline Beavon (host): And because of the kind of web, the sensitivity is such an issue that was such a factor that needs to be taken into account. Yeah. That you've really got to, like you say, be careful about who you're bringing into that Yeah. In that space. Yeah.
[00:14:05] Jo Harrison: And I'm really like, I work with a couple of web developers, one who.
I now recommend. So I work two and they're both fantastic and they're both men. Mm-hmm. And there's a guy in Scotland, so I was brought on to work on a project with him and now he refers me to other people and he's absolutely fantastic. He's like, if you design it, I'll build it basically. And he's really great about kind of all of the issues cuz he works a lot in the women's sector as well cuz he's been referred.
And then there's my other friend as well who's off the back of working with me. He's now doing a lot more stuff in, in that area. And so he's now thinking, oh, You know, like for instance, in a website for like a women's aid or a rape crisis center, you've got an exit button so that people can quickly get off.
Yeah. And so he did one the other day, and it's great. Sometimes you can put, put it to, to, so it just goes directly to a Google search or something. He just put it to the BBC News website, which is just really sensible because it's sometimes if you, if say, if you landed on just a, a Google search, somebody might want you Googling rather than.
If you're just on a news website, everybody looks at the news. Yep. From time to time. Absolutely. It's a perfect, legit, legitimate website to be on. Yeah. So if someone's questioning, you'd be like, I just wanna see what's going on. Yeah. And it's just, it's just little things like that. It's clever. Yeah. So someone's really thinking about, The functionality and the user experience and even, even having left the site.
[00:15:22] Caroline Beavon (host): Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's interesting to hear how you are as a sort of solo freelancer. Mm-hmm. How you work with other people, and obviously you're based at the Skiff, which is why we're talking today. Mm-hmm. How did you come across this place and how does that fit in with your, cause I know you've, you've collaborated with a couple of other people here as well, I think. Mm-hmm. So how does that all fit in with like, being here? How does it help you work and get you all, get your job done?
[00:15:47] Jo Harrison: So I became aware of the skiff years and years ago. Some friends of mine who, the guys who were teaching me like to use WordPress and stuff, and they said, oh, there's, there's a, an event and I can't remember, it was something to do with development.
And at the time I was like, yeah, I'm gonna learn to code. I didn't, I can change the colors of things with the hex code. I can put padding in and, you know, I can do a bit more than that. But I didn't get very far. Because I want to, I wanna do the creative, I wanna do the visual things, and I really love the technical stuff.
But anyway, so there was an event at the Skiff when it was down on Gloucester Road. Yep. And so we went there and so I was aware of it and I've been going back on the website like intermittently for the last few years going, God, I really need to get out of the house, really need to get out of the house.
And then after the pandemic and everything, I realized I was becoming a bit peculiar working from home so much and living on my own.
[00:16:35] Caroline Beavon (host): What does peculiar look like?
[00:16:37] Jo Harrison: Peculiar looks like. I mean I did this anyway. I sang to my singing a lot to my cat. But also just kind of being a bit insular and forgetting how to be social, getting up at funny times, working late into the night. You know, I saw, I, I lived my life through memes at the moment and I saw a thing that said, and this hair too says, and I didn't brush my teeth either. And it's like, yeah, waiting until two in the afternoon to brush my teeth. That kind of stuff because, you know, why, why adhere to social conventions if there's no one else around?
[00:17:12] Caroline Beavon (host):
The number of times are quick, quick go put makeup, one.
[00:17:15] Jo Harrison: Do your hair, put some earrings on. If you put earrings on, people think you've been dressed for age. So I was like, no, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do it. And I, and prior it was more of a financial constraint, but it, it's, you know, obviously it's still a cost. It's gotta be taken into account, but it's less so now. So. Yeah, I, and I, and I live, I live rurally as well, so this is, but it's fantastic and it helps in a way that bizarrely with more people around, I'm able to focus more because everybody else is working. Rather than being at home when you're, and you're like, oh, I know, I'll just, I'll put the dishwasher on, I'll do some washing, I'll, I'll potter about whatever.
You do things to distract you cuz it's hard to focus if everybody around you is focusing. Yeah. Or you wanna go and get a cup of tea and then you can have a bit of a chat and. Yeah. It just, it really helps. And I also, I've met people who are doing similar stuff to me or even different things, but you, it's interesting how, how things overlap.
And you can be, you might be doing completely different projects, but there are similarities or there are things that, that are relevant and transferable skills and that kind of thing. But also, even though I'm learning animation, I'm not quick. It's something I can, I can do some stuff well and I can do some things quickly, but I took on a project which it dragged a bit and they had no deadline for it. And I saw a a meme on social media the other day. So this, this project has no deadline, so this woman will never complete it. And I was like, that's so true. Yeah. Anyway, so I did a, we spoke to the client and thought, right, we need to decide a deadline, but I said, I'm gonna bring somebody else on.
So, and, and Joyce who's absolutely fantastic animator, and she does explainer videos and news videos and this, this is an explainer about gender budgeting in Scotland. It could be a dry subject. Obviously it's, it's interesting and it's upsetting and whatever.
[00:18:55] Caroline Beavon (host): It's serious, but doesn't, it's have to be boring.
[00:18:58] Jo Harrison: Yes, exactly. That's the, that's the phrase. And and so, yeah, so I've done the, the graphics, cuz I did, I did some of their branding and, and visuals and things and then, and put, pulled it together and then me and Joyce sat together and, and I said, right, this is what I've got. I really like your input. I want you to be as creative as you want.
I want you to be as an interesting project for you. So, but then we sat there and she was like, oh, how about. This, you could do this with this we could, you know, we could make this image, leverage the kind of statistics better. Mm-hmm. And it was just really, really interesting. So that was, that's a really, really lovely outcome.
And I think we started talking about that after we, I think I'd been, come here a couple of weeks. Amazing. Yeah. And so, And I've been talking to Zoe and she works in policy and she said, you know, and because of the, the clients I have, it's very similar to some of the, the stuff she does. So she's like, I will pass your details on.
So, you know, lots of cross pollination and that's really nice. Yeah, it's been really helpful and I just, it's just changed stuff for me so much.
[00:19:56] Caroline Beavon (host): You said you live rurally and you say you travel, you travel quite a distance to get into central Brighton to get to the Skiff and you know, you've, you've explained why The Skiff are not other co-working spaces, because I know, you know, we've, we've both worked in other spaces. Yeah. And it's just not that. I mean, there's probably little bits of collaboration, but certainly not. This is because it, maybe it's a little bit smaller here and it's a bit more, we're all in the same room. You can almost overhear conversations going on and there is that big melting, but it feels like a big melting pot.
[00:20:24] Jo Harrison: Oh, I love, I love the sticking my oar in somebody else's conversation. Probably shouldn't do so much, but really enjoy it.
[00:20:29] Caroline Beavon (host): I've got three quick fire questions I'm gonna ask you just to wrap things up.
What what was for lunch today?
[00:20:34] Jo Harrison: A. Cream cheese and smoked salmon sandwich, bag of NikNaks, a Cadburys Whole Nut and a cherry Coke from the garage. When I went to get petrol
[00:20:46] Caroline Beavon (host): a garage sandwich, they the worst sandwiches.
[00:20:49] Jo Harrison: Oh, but it was Waitrose. They've got a Waitrose.
[00:20:51] Caroline Beavon (host): I was Waitrose. It wasn't like, Shell, no. Or BP somewhere? No. Okay. You're forgiven that's fine.
If you didn't live where you live cuz you live, it sounds like you live in this idyllic little village out in the middle of nowhere. If you didn't live there, where would you live?
[00:21:04] Jo Harrison: I'd live in Brighton. I'd probably like, quite like to live near my mate up in Hanover you know, near Dover Castle. That would, that would be my preferred. Near Queens Park. That'd be nice.
[00:21:17] Caroline Beavon (host): And if we went worldwide, is there, have you got a burning desire to go and live on a desert island or, you know, Ooh, beach
[00:21:22] Jo Harrison: Amsterdam.
[00:21:23] Caroline Beavon (host): Really? Mm-hmm. Yeah. What was it about Amsterdam?
[00:21:25] Jo Harrison: I dunno, it's just, it's quite laid back. It's pretty, it's, yeah, just, yeah.
Amsterdam would be lovely. Wow.
[00:21:33] Caroline Beavon (host): Okay. And final question, if you could do this, if you could earn the same, doing any job, what would you do?
[00:21:39] Jo Harrison: I'd just paint. Be an artist, I'd be a painter. Yeah. Because
[00:21:42] Caroline Beavon (host): Art, we haven't even talked about your art. So art's a very big part of your life. Yeah. Away from graphic design.
[00:21:46] Jo Harrison: Yeah. And I do it and, and, and I kind of, I like to think of the work I do. As a designer and illustrator, as aren't I lucky to do this for a job? So it doesn't take the joy out of doing art for money. And so then the stuff that I do for myself is very different and it's more exploratory. And I often kind of just do bits and pieces here and there.
I don't, it's not that coherent. I just do what I feel like doing. And you know, it's something I always wanted to do, but I've had, you know, you have to compromise. And maybe one day I won't have to. Mm-hmm. But I still have the joy of it, so, you know. We went to the pub last night and I got home early enough to still be able to do some work and stuff. And then I painted till about midnight and just, you know, I mean, meant I didn't wake up very early today, but,
[00:22:32] Caroline Beavon (host): so have you always kept on with your art ever since doing your. Art foundation and your art.
[00:22:36] Jo Harrison: Yeah.
[00:22:36] Caroline Beavon (host): So you've, you've kept art all the way through.
[00:22:38] Jo Harrison: Yeah, and that's how I started. I mean, one of the things I started doing with graphic design was designing band posters for friends. And my brother's band gig posters were the thing that got me into graphic design basically. So, I mean, I'd done, I'd done the signage stuff and all that kind of thing. But yeah, doing gig posters got me into an illustrating as well, so I'd kind of always done that.
But I used to have kind of more lofty pretensions about being an oil painter and everything. But now I like to just do whatever makes me happy at the time. So it could be paper mache, it could be doodling, it could be You know, a collage, whatever. So, and I try and do little workshops online and kind of, you know, mm-hmm.
I'm just trying to make my life as rich as possible.
[00:23:18] Caroline Beavon (host): And you can find Joe on Instagram at Joe Eliza Harrison, or head to her website, joe hyphen harrison.co uk. And if you're interested in working alongside people like Joe and myself, then head to the skiff.org. And finally, don't forget to subscribe to Tales from the Engine Room.
And we'll see you next time.