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Brand to Scale is a podcast where we talk to business leaders and industry influencers about how they built their brands. Each episode dives into real stories about starting up, growing through challenges, and what success looks like behind the scenes. It's an honest look at the people and ideas driving business forward.
00:00:00:00 - 00:00:13:07
Unknown
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
00:00:13:09 - 00:00:35:00
Unknown
Welcome to Brand Tisdale, where we explore the unexpected journeys behind inspiring leaders and what it takes to build something meaningful. I'm Jess and today I'm joined by someone who's navigated a winding path from customer service to CEO. Shaped by personal nudges, values and a passion for people and performance. Matt Webb welcome to the podcast. Well, thank you for having me on your podcast.
00:00:35:01 - 00:00:50:13
Unknown
It's an honor. Thank you so much. Give us a quick, intro into who you are and what you do, and then I'll go into some deep and meaningful questions and see how we get right. Yeah, we look forward. I look forward to that. Yeah. So as you said, Matt Webb, CEO of mentor. Been with mentor.
00:00:50:18 - 00:01:10:12
Unknown
18.5 years in a number of different roles, which we'll come to, I'm sure. Father of three. My kids are all grown up, 21, 23, 25 of married 27 years. So, also a long time. And live in, in West Oxfordshire, in the countryside. So, yeah, that's me. And really up in a career sales person.
00:01:10:14 - 00:01:30:05
Unknown
So. Okay, we'll go into that in a moment. And I didn't get there by design. I got there by accident, and I'm sure we can explore that a little bit as well. 100%. Yeah, that's a familiar story. That is. I didn't want to be this when I grew up, but suddenly I am now. So on that, on that vein and that's go, that's go way back.
00:01:30:16 - 00:01:49:22
Unknown
What was life like growing up for you? Yeah. I mean, it was it was good. We, I've lived in this area my whole life, so I'm in, West Oxfordshire, near near a big RAF base called Brize Norton. I live in Brize Norton village now with my family, and we've been in this house for over 25 years, so I've been lucky.
00:01:49:22 - 00:02:09:22
Unknown
I think I was lucky is the right word. I had quite a stable base, as I've been growing up in the same area, you know, mostly stayed at the same schools. So. Yeah. Yeah. Early, early formative years were good. There were nudges along the way as I got into my teenage years that I think started to shake me.
00:02:09:24 - 00:02:32:05
Unknown
I also got involved in, things like the Air Training Co, ATC as it is, which is might sound a bit nerdy. It's not. It was the RAAF version of the Cadet force. But I'm telling you that because that really that really shapes a number of the behaviors that I've got as an adult through my teenage years and had some great experiences as well.
00:02:32:07 - 00:02:51:10
Unknown
Wow. Tell me more about that then what? What did that teach you? That experience. So discipline. Those who know me well know I'm a little bit of a stickler for timekeeping, so, It taught me the importance of working with teams a little bit on leadership as I moved up through the ranks as it was at the time.
00:02:51:12 - 00:03:16:03
Unknown
Some great experiences. Walk in the hills of, the Lake District on Outward Bound. So, you know, planning, organizing, but also, you know, the big thing was all about and you mentioned it in the intro, the importance of people and camaraderie and and having each other's backs and looking out for people. I think some of those values that came through that periods that just stay with me my whole life.
00:03:16:05 - 00:03:33:24
Unknown
That's brilliant. When we chatted before, you mentioned, a bit of a personal shift around the age of 12, are you happy to talk a bit about that? And how that shaped you? Yeah, of course. My parents split up when I was, at the age of 12. So those who've gone through a broken family know that it can be incredibly difficult.
00:03:34:00 - 00:03:54:20
Unknown
It can be, character building in a number of different ways. For me, it gave me a lot more self drive, a lot more autonomy. It gave me, a, you know, the sad side of the story is less of a family unit to, to operate within, which meant I didn't have that backdrop of being able to rely on people.
00:03:54:22 - 00:04:15:02
Unknown
Apart from my older brother, who still, you know, a good friend of mine today. But I had to be more self driven. I had to make sure that I was looking at my own destiny, more. And it sounds a bit weird to say that, as I'm telling you this, because you think really at 12 years old, but it's just the reality of the way things were I at to to be disciplined, to drive things through myself.
00:04:15:08 - 00:04:40:18
Unknown
That was when it was only a couple of years after that that I joined the ATC. So that gave me focus. It gave me somewhere to go. It gave me something to do, you know, a community of people to be a part of. So it was one of those nudges. Jess, where if I look back on it and I think that actually give me any mental toughness that I still have to this day, and it probably did more because it had to then, because I wanted it to.
00:04:41:13 - 00:04:56:21
Unknown
What was that, decision you made at that early age to go and do that? Or were you you sort of pushed or encouraged into it? No, no, no, it was, it was myself and my best mate at the time who both said, you know, we should go and do this. It was. No, nobody pushed me into doing it.
00:04:56:21 - 00:05:20:14
Unknown
I, at that age, I was a keen footballer. And it wasn't till my late teens. So I also had that team essence of that as well, which was a family thing. So as a family, my dad, my brother, my grandpa, we all played football. So that was something that I'd always been a part of. But no, the ATC was more it was it was something that I wanted to do to give myself something to do.
00:05:20:16 - 00:05:45:04
Unknown
The actual, the actual byproduct of everything I've just described is not really known at the time because I'd heard about it, but didn't really understand it too much. In, well, what? I mean, you could have gone in a few different directions, right? With that experience and lots of, young, young men at that age could have probably gone off the rails or gone to do something else or gone straight into work.
00:05:45:06 - 00:06:04:11
Unknown
You must have had a an ambition inside you at that age or, a need to go and be part of more communities. So do you think that was just ingrained in you or something you were learning and wanted to chase? Funnily enough, I was actually quite keen at that age to be a, an airline pilot, you know?
00:06:04:11 - 00:06:18:23
Unknown
So you go into a school and you say, well, what do you want to be? I want to be an astronaut. I want to be a pilot. I want to be a lawyer, whatever it is. I was no different. I was like, yeah, I want to be a pilot. And actually going into the ATC Training Corps was, that would help me.
00:06:18:23 - 00:06:40:00
Unknown
So that would help me become, you know, maybe get a scholarship into the RAF and learn to fly. And, you know, so there was there was obviously some thinking behind it, but that wasn't necessarily the only reason at the time. But but it helps, you know, because I did learn to, I didn't learn to fly, but I did fly planes, gliders and small planes.
00:06:40:10 - 00:07:01:23
Unknown
But yeah, but there's another parts of this story, because I am actually colorblind, so not wildly colorblind. So I actually got a, an invite to to do a flying scholarship. So I went to big in Hill at the time, and on day one, I was maybe 16 at the time. And on day one they said, yeah, you come because you're colorblind.
00:07:01:23 - 00:07:23:16
Unknown
And apparently it's dangerous having color blindness when you fly in a plane. And of course, I'm kidding. Very dangerous. So that was another one of those nudges where I was thinking, okay, so I had a plan. No, I need to rethink. Yes. That's just the way things go, isn't it? Was that, really disappointing to to. Oh, I thought if you talk that dream.
00:07:23:16 - 00:07:42:15
Unknown
Yeah. Hugely so. Yeah. Yeah hugely so. Because when you, when, when you set a goal and I'm, and I'm a big one for goal setting overall, but when you set a goal and then, you know, I had all the aptitude I needed, I think I had the intelligence I needed to, but my eyes let me down.
00:07:42:17 - 00:08:01:05
Unknown
So. And there's no way of correcting that, unfortunately. So yeah, it was a huge disappointment at the time. And probably I spent a little while going, well, actually, what next? Where does my career now take me? So I, you know, carried on into A-levels and, and even at the end was I had no real clue. So yeah, it was it was a disappointment.
00:08:01:05 - 00:08:19:20
Unknown
No question. Wow. I think that's an an ingrained personality trait in people who have gone on to become CEOs or do something really successful with their lives as well, is when they get that obstacle and they get nudged in a different direction, they just go with it and find a new opportunity. So do you think that's just part of your personality?
00:08:19:22 - 00:08:46:15
Unknown
I think you've just got to go with it. I mean, nobody's going to necessarily give you all the answers. No one's going to show you the path in the way. And I'm actually going back to, you know, really important question you asked earlier for about the age of 12. I was carving my own path anyway. So I and I remember it vividly being in the, the sort of the dormitory block when I just came back from, had my eyes tested in Biggin Hill and sitting there going, well, that's it, now I've got to do something different.
00:08:46:21 - 00:09:02:13
Unknown
And it was a very strange feeling, because I actually went home the same day where everybody else was going to be there for another week doing all these other tests. So. But yes, I think so, because you can choose one of two paths, you can either wallow and woe is me, or you can go, well, that's no longer a path.
00:09:02:13 - 00:09:25:14
Unknown
What's the next one? I, I wouldn't say it's always easy to do that by the way, because sometimes you have nudges in life that you don't want, and it's not just a case of going, oh, well, move on. It takes a bit of time to process. I do think, though, it sort of gave me some of those characteristics that I've still got to this day, which go right, actually half glass full, that's not going to work.
00:09:25:17 - 00:09:42:04
Unknown
What are the other options or things I can do? Absolutely. Is that one door closes like five more open somewhere else and you've just got to go and yeah, go, go and find the breeze to follow. Definitely. And sometimes you have to kick them down because they're not open at all. So you have to just know I'm going to just do this.
00:09:42:06 - 00:10:01:18
Unknown
Yeah definitely. So throughout that experience and you learn a lot about, you know, teamwork and camaraderie and all of that stuff. How long were you were you there? What else did you learn that you took with you into a new career? And then what was the sort of pivotal point of leaving there and, and going on to do what?
00:10:01:20 - 00:10:22:02
Unknown
Do what you did next? Yeah. That for about four years. Some of the things I've already talked about, discipline, the way, the way I presented myself both, you know, from a dress code perspective, because if you, if you can imagine if it's, it's very military esque, you've got to have your trousers going to be ironed, probably your shoes.
00:10:22:02 - 00:10:43:10
Unknown
You've got to be clean. Your shirts have got to be nicely on all those things that, that actually to some degree are less important these days than they were back then. Even from a business sense, we have a lot more relaxed business dress code, but it still makes to this day me think about how do I present myself when I'm in front of customers?
00:10:43:12 - 00:11:08:21
Unknown
How do I get impressions from a language perspective? All these other things, and I'm sure it comes back from those four years, which, you know, I'm over 50 now, so it's it's less than 10% of my life, but I might know a lot less. But it's had a significant impact in the way that I now approach things. I left, when I got to the age of 18 and again, no, no great mystery to these things.
00:11:08:21 - 00:11:29:08
Unknown
When you get to 18, you have different choices, different things. You can go and do different distractions. And I think that with things like the Cadet Force, the ATC, you do outgrow it at some point. And I think I got to the point where I went, then got into full time employment and just outgrew it. You know, it was great while it lasted.
00:11:29:10 - 00:11:46:19
Unknown
And you have to know when it's time to move on. Yeah, definitely. With that experience that you had, obviously, you know, I've spoken to a lot of people that have sort of come from a similar background and they've said similar things about how important it was and the things they learned along the way. Do you think there's there's value?
00:11:46:19 - 00:12:12:02
Unknown
And I'm not talking about, what's it called, forced, service, you know, for, for school age people or anything like that. Unless, unless you want to comment on that, that is that value. Do you think in being in environments like that, even for a short amount of time, even as a, you know, extracurricular club, being involved in a community like that, helping shape who you are for the rest of your life and, and bringing those values.
00:12:12:04 - 00:12:33:20
Unknown
Yeah. I'm not a big advocate of national service. I think the the and the the essence of what you're talking about is right. So being in a, a team, a community, something where you can get positive role models that are going to help guide you, shape you, feedback to you because at that age you don't know what you don't know.
00:12:33:22 - 00:12:51:09
Unknown
So I do I do think being involved in something, and it doesn't matter what it is, is something that's got to be deeply passionate. I was a football player, I was in the the ATC. They were my two big things in my formative years. So. And it could be sports could net it could be it could be lots of.
00:12:51:11 - 00:13:13:03
Unknown
Yeah. There's lots of analogies around, sports and leadership, lots of books written on the subject as well. And how that, how that connects to each other during that time. And do did you have a really strong role model or someone that you saw in leadership position, you were like, that is that's brilliant that us? Yeah. Who I needed in my life at that time.
00:13:13:06 - 00:13:32:07
Unknown
Yeah. Several. Yeah. So so whether it's the, the managers of the football teams that I was in some of the offices within the ATC in that case, but even some of the school teachers, I went to a school called Henry Box in, in Witney in Oxfordshire. Even some of those who are good Rob. Not not all, some of those were good role models.
00:13:32:07 - 00:14:04:15
Unknown
But again, it goes back to me being fairly self-driven, in that I kind of take the bits that I think are right for me from a values respective, I don't take the bits where they compromise my values. I'm quite stubborn. My wife would say she's wrong. Of course. But yes, I mean, so so that having something, it doesn't matter what it is, whether it's sport, music, but something that you're really deeply passionate about that you know, either as an individual pursuit that gives you discipline or whether to.
00:14:04:16 - 00:14:31:06
Unknown
I think it's really important in those years to participate in things like that. Yeah, 100%, I totally agree. Were there any examples of, poor leadership or questionable leadership that you witnessed during that time as well, that you you've also taken that into your work and life and career? Yes. So I can't talk about, but yeah, of course there is.
00:14:31:06 - 00:14:53:05
Unknown
There's yeah. People who over exert their authority for no good reason, people who don't stand by what they say they're going to do. And we see that in all walks of life to this day. But again, you either you are the mirror and you repeat or you you observe, you learn and you don't repeat, and and you know, so I, I'm a big believer in the importance of values.
00:14:53:07 - 00:15:20:15
Unknown
So honesty integrity treat people with respect. Treat people like you want to be treated yourself. And many, many others. People don't always display those those behaviors and those values. Yes. Yeah. And that's not a so it's a personal choice as to whether you, follow that path or not. I choose not to. So, you know, regardless of who I'm talking to, what their role is, what their status is, it doesn't matter to me.
00:15:20:15 - 00:15:46:17
Unknown
I'll treat everybody exactly the same. And I find that you get that, that same thing in return when you treat people equally. Yeah, I clear it. And people don't. And I think it work out. But, you know. Yeah, I think it's, it's similar in parenting, as I'll admit. I think if you treat them as, you know, small adults as well and bring them along for the journey, you kind of get the, get what you need from them.
00:15:46:17 - 00:16:10:19
Unknown
And they learn some lessons along the way as well. Yeah they do. I've, I've had two, two golden roles for my kids. So probably roll their eyes if I said there's but two. Two Golden rule is very simple. Number one never lie. So you know, if they, if they've done stuff that they're not proud of and they've got into trouble and they do it at school because it's the boys, just tell me, you tell me and I'll back you, and we'll work it out.
00:16:10:21 - 00:16:32:11
Unknown
Eli. That's a different set of problems altogether. So never lie. Number two, treat people how you want to be treated yourself. And and, you know, Touchwood. To this day, all three of them still live by those rules. And they're doing pretty well in life. So it's not difficult. It doesn't need to be overengineered, but just simple principles that you stick to really matter.
00:16:32:13 - 00:17:01:18
Unknown
Yeah. How early did you identify what your values are? And and have they changed? Have you added more? Oh, I think, I think that you don't necessarily realize what your values are until someone labels them as values. And I don't think you often see that until you get into work in life. So, you know, the, the honesty, integrity, timekeeping, they've kind of been there all the time.
00:17:02:16 - 00:17:27:18
Unknown
But it's it's when people labels them or someone compromises them that you realize they're really important to you. And so I think they've been there all the time. They do change over time. So as my role has changed from, I started off in, in the banking industry, NatWest in then called the machine room basically when you put in the checks for it as well, I did my my career and then went into customer service different.
00:17:27:23 - 00:17:46:18
Unknown
Then I went into sales and that's a different set. Again, but there is a red thread that goes through them around how you deal with people, how you. Yeah, turn up, how you react, how you respond. So I think they've always been there from from those formative years. But it's only later on that you go are they are really important to me.
00:17:46:24 - 00:18:05:10
Unknown
And they become really important when you see people not doing them. And you go, yeah, I can't be tolerating that kind of behavior. Yeah. And then you have to think about why that is. And you're like, oh, that's why. That's because that's what I value. And yeah. Yes. Exactly. Right. Yeah. 100%. What you mentioned that you, you kind of outgrew it.
00:18:05:10 - 00:18:23:16
Unknown
So the age of 18, what were your options at that point and what were you leaning towards and how did you get into sales I guess, what was the next. Yeah, yeah. Good question. I, I my options were get a job because I had to. So I remember applying to NatWest and went to the interview and was lucky enough to get it.
00:18:23:16 - 00:18:49:16
Unknown
It was just it was a start, a job really, low wage at the time as it was, for contacts. This is back in 1993. Yeah, 1993. So I did that for a little bit. And then actually there was a we talk about nudges, a friend of mine who was also one of, my instructors actually in the ATC and was working in a company in a, in a town over from where I live in, in, Abingdon.
00:18:49:16 - 00:19:08:22
Unknown
So not West Oxfordshire, Florida. He said, oh, they're looking for customer service people. And you know what it was they said, and they're paying this. And I'm like, well, that's more than I'm currently getting. And I would say it was some complex thought process. It wasn't it was, going to get paid more money. I can drive it up.
00:19:08:23 - 00:19:29:21
Unknown
What am I going to get that? And he said, well, I'll take you each day. That was all good. But I didn't realize, Jess. And when we were having a pre conversation around all this, I didn't realize the significance of the move because as it turns out, this was 1994. As it turns out, three years later, I would then get together with my wife.
00:19:29:23 - 00:19:48:16
Unknown
I've been with her ever since. Had I not made the move and gone to that job, we'd never have met. Wow. So it was one of those nudges. Although, as it weirdly turned out later on, she was actually the best friend of our family. Friends from our from our early childhood years who lived at the bottom of the garden.
00:19:48:20 - 00:20:11:11
Unknown
I mean, how weird is that? Yeah, and I would have been in the house with her at the same time with this shared friend, probably about, I don't know, when we were ten, maybe 11. Oh my goodness. I know it's a small world, right? Yes. We united all those years later. Reunited. But but blissfully unaware. Right. So,
00:20:11:13 - 00:20:31:20
Unknown
Yeah. So that was one of those nudges where I went and worked for a company called Uni Karen in Abingdon. They were a mobile phone company who were part of uni part figure that one out unit, part the car parts company. Okay. And I stayed there for, for the whole time until they then got acquired by Vodafone.
00:20:31:22 - 00:21:00:01
Unknown
But what happened to go back to your question was, when Joe and I got together in 1997, she was actually my line manager at the time we were in customs. So sneaky. In fact, I think she was my line manager's manager said to up. So, you know, sneaky. There was no she didn't chat about. But, you know, we, we got together and, it worked for a while.
00:21:00:01 - 00:21:17:17
Unknown
And then at some point, one of the senior managers said, no, you can't work together because you're in the same department. So and by the way, you need to turn up to work in different cars because you, you can't be seen to to come to it together. And I'm like, why does that matter? You know? And anyway, so they moved me out.
00:21:17:17 - 00:21:37:07
Unknown
They moved me into a different role. And it was it's a weird role. I can't remember exactly what it is, but one day the MD of the company called my my phone and said, could you come up to the office? I want to see you. And, and, long story short, he said, we got an opportunity to work in the for you to work in the corporate south.
00:21:37:07 - 00:21:59:04
Unknown
So we think you would do all right of that. And I was thinking I'd never done sales in my life. But I can talk to people. Yeah. So is that all it takes? And took the sales job, you know, having never, ever planned to do that in my life never even crossed my mind. That was back in 1998.
00:21:59:04 - 00:22:17:00
Unknown
And of course, with with, 20. Not very good at math smoke. That's true. 28 years later, 27 years later, I'm still in a sales role. Yes, my position has changed slightly, but I'm still in the South. So that was at nudge. Well, yeah, the MD called me up. Do you want to do this? Yeah, I'll give it a go.
00:22:17:00 - 00:22:38:21
Unknown
Sing to work out. All right at it. And then when Vodafone acquired this company back in 1999, I just moved. And, and that then leads to the next nudge, which we'll come to in a minute. Wow. So if you hadn't moved, you wouldn't have met your wife. But if you hadn't been in a relationship with your wife, you would have been nudged to the.
00:22:38:21 - 00:23:04:09
Unknown
The department probably wouldn't have had that conversation with the the CEO at the time. So all of these things. Yeah. LED to led to something new. In terms of the sales element, you said, you know, you never has any ambitions to be in sales. And I've done it before. Did you find did you have training on it, or did you find that you were kind of just naturally good at it because of the fact, you know, the skills that you've learned along the way?
00:23:04:11 - 00:23:29:00
Unknown
Well, I think the skills that I learned, from being in sports teams to being in the ATC meant I could communicate with people, quite comfortably. So I think they certainly helped, be in a sales role, but I definitely got trained on it. And actually, I remember doing some early training when I first got into the sales role, the five day course in London with a company, and learned loads of stuff then, and actually still learning stuff to this day.
00:23:29:00 - 00:23:54:09
Unknown
You never stop learning when you're when you're in the sales role. But the interesting thing was, in 2000, it was either 2000 and 2001. I can't remember exactly what. There was a fuel blockade there, whether you can remember that far back, which meant the whole country pretty much ran out of fuel. Wow. And I was up merry Hill in Birmingham with a company called Laureus, who became mentor to do some soul training for me.
00:23:54:09 - 00:24:14:23
Unknown
And a guy called Jim McManus, who, to this day is a really good friend. He was the sales trainer who was he was training us on all these skills during my time at Vodafone. So I then stayed, then it got promoted to a management role, in, in Vodafone, but kept in touch with all the training that that mentor did for Vodafone over many years.
00:24:15:00 - 00:24:34:08
Unknown
And then one year I was 2006. I was I saw Jim and I said, by the way, I'm loving what you do and I'd love to do something like that in my future career. If you ever have any openings with a mentor, I'd love to explore them and my kids at that point. So 2006 would have been seven, five and three.
00:24:34:08 - 00:24:55:17
Unknown
So, you know, really little, not much different to, to the age yours are now. You're just slightly older. So going from a corporate company to, to a non company, like, I'm not sure this is necessarily a, the right thing to do, but I did it anyway. And I joined mentor in 1st of February 2007.
00:24:56:03 - 00:25:20:01
Unknown
And I've been there ever since. So when we talk about those nudges, the cascade, had I not moved to the company in Abingdon, I'd never have met my wife. Maybe I would have done, but who knows? You know, had I not done that, I'd never been moved into sales. I've never moved to sales. I've never gone to Vodafone, met up with lorries that then became mentor, that then became the company I worked for, and now I end up being the CEO of mentors.
00:25:20:01 - 00:25:49:17
Unknown
So yeah, there's a couple more on that is still to talk about. Yeah, things do happen for a reason. It's not always evident or clear why, but they do tend to happen for a reason. Is that something that you you believe in that that sort of, you know, that things do happen for a reason? Because from what you said, there's you've said yes to everything that's come across your path, really essentially, is that what's happened or is it is it more.
00:25:49:19 - 00:26:07:20
Unknown
No, no, I don't think I've always said I've always said yes. I mean, I think, there's been opportunities that are come up along the way where I've gone. No, that's absolutely not right for me or you know, even even at my time in mentor, I was I was asked to do other opportunities. And I'm like, no, that's not not for me.
00:26:07:20 - 00:26:27:01
Unknown
It's not right. So I think the things happen for a reason. There would be a mass of people who go, yeah, but that happened. What was the reason behind that? And you can't explain everything. Yeah. For me, the the nudges that we're talking about led to something else. We'll never know whether they would have led to something different had I not had.
00:26:27:01 - 00:26:44:07
Unknown
Yeah. So I think they did happen for me in those cases for a reason. There's other things that have happened in my life just where you go. Well why did that happen? And there is no sense making and it just isn't. Yeah. But in the career perspective and by the way, some of it was by design. It wasn't all by accident.
00:26:44:09 - 00:27:03:22
Unknown
So, you know, and moving into mentor was by design because I had the conversation and then made the decision to move into the role. I did account management. That's right. Yes. And then working with the team made a decision to do something else and then another and then another. So not everything happens just by chance. It really doesn't.
00:27:03:24 - 00:27:22:20
Unknown
There is a there is work and effort there goes in there. However, I do believe the nudges that I've had led me to this place that I'm at now. Yeah, absolutely. Do you when those opportunities come your way, then are you quite analytical about it, pros and cons or do you go with the gut. Do you lean on that.
00:27:22:22 - 00:27:43:11
Unknown
Yeah. The latter. Yeah. Yeah. I wish I was more analytical sometimes. I'm trying to be, you know, with, with a few years more experience. So often it is a gut, gut feeling. I've actually learned over the years to just take a step back and go, right. Don't just go, yes, think about what it is and then make an informed choice.
00:27:43:13 - 00:28:09:24
Unknown
But I am very much gut driven. Yeah, yeah. So if it feels right, then it's probably going to be a few of them. Yeah, I love that. I think people do talk about gut instinct quite a lot, don't they? And I do you think that's important in, in business to, to listen to that intuition? Yeah, I do, I do it, you know, there's a balance, right?
00:28:09:24 - 00:28:28:06
Unknown
You should also look at the, what the what the data and the evidence is showing you the thing about intuition and ghosts based on years of experience. So, and in my experience, it's often proved right. Sometimes it's not. So you, you, you know, you go back to your back catalog of experiences. I've seen that before.
00:28:28:14 - 00:28:51:15
Unknown
How would I or how should I react? Is that appropriate to the situation then move forward. So I think it's important to listen to that experience and not dismiss it. Yeah. And I also think it's important not to just dismiss it straightaway. Yeah, definitely 100%. What was the the next nudge that because also you're at mental now you're working your way up account management and then you're you're now the CEO.
00:28:51:15 - 00:29:19:17
Unknown
So how does that happens. Yeah that's a good one. So we had we had a conversation back in late 2021 into early 2022 around, you know, where does my path, within the organization go now. Was that instigated by you? Yeah, it was instigated by me that that particular conversation. So because I'd been doing a certain role for probably at that point for years, I was also look into the future going.
00:29:19:17 - 00:29:38:04
Unknown
Right. Actually, I'm in the final third of my career now, if you think about it in years terms, which means I will really capture I know it's scary, isn't it? Yeah, but it's true. If I think that you've got, let's say, 45, 50 years of a career, I've already done a lot. I've already done 32 years of that.
00:29:38:04 - 00:29:54:08
Unknown
So as, as as sad as it may sound, I'm now in that last third. So. And I'm okay with that, by the way, because the previous two thirds have been great fun. In this last third you go. Right. Actually, what do I want to do that it's going to be really purposeful for you here. Not playing, by the way.
00:29:54:10 - 00:30:16:08
Unknown
I can. Yeah. Is that your end? Yeah. And, Yeah. We need to go again on that one where we, we do so well off an hour and no mistakes. I know we were doing so good.
00:30:17:21 - 00:30:25:18
Unknown
Oh, we are okay. I did it a couple of times, but I'm. I'm trying to keep my hands down, but I'm sort.
00:30:25:20 - 00:31:01:00
Unknown
Okay. Do you want to go from the top of that question? Yes. And then we can. Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. That. So we had all those nudges to get to where you are today. You were in mental account management working your way up, but you are now the CEO. So how does that happen? Yeah. So we, late 21, early 22, we was I was in conversation with the owners who were looking to, to do something different, moving forward, whether that was to grow in other ways or to, you know, raise money for, for whatever it or whatever it was.
00:31:01:02 - 00:31:15:03
Unknown
But I was also at that point in my career where I'm going. Right. What do I do now for the remaining part of my career? I've still got loads of time left ahead of me in terms of my career. If I look at it in a slightly different way, I am in the final third of my working career.
00:31:15:03 - 00:31:36:18
Unknown
You know, you look at 32 years of career today and you go, right, actually, if I've got another, so I've got another 15 to 20 years, that's, that's getting close to the final third you start to or I started to ponder on that then just and think, well, what's my legacy going to be for my kids? So I start to think, you know, in this, in this final third, what can I do that's purposeful?
00:31:36:18 - 00:32:03:00
Unknown
What can I do? Which is going to, leave an impression, on the people that I work with, our customers, but also for my family, you know, the legacy that I can leave them. And that sort of sparked a conversation around, well, what next for me? A mentor and we then pursued a management buyout. So myself and three other people, worked together to raise funding to, to do the MBO.
00:32:03:06 - 00:32:23:20
Unknown
And then we started talking. I never forget I was in Swindon. So between you and I, just. When I'm in Bruges, you're in Cardiff, aren't you? In Swindon? And we start running. Right. Who's going to do what role then? And it was like, well Matt, you're doing the CEO role. And I'm like, okay, no debate. And and of course I was very happy to, to do that, to take the company forward.
00:32:23:22 - 00:32:49:03
Unknown
So we, we took, throughout 2022 and then, early 2023, we completed the MBA. So I became the CEO and, the two former for this, three former owners, two of them moved, moved on and retired. One of them still works around with us to this day. So yeah. And it's been great. So that was the next real, real major nudge for me.
00:32:49:03 - 00:33:11:06
Unknown
Yeah. Taking on the CEO role. And you can imagine I went from a position of looking after one person, me to then having a team of 24 and people that were, you know, I'm accountable for them and I'm accountable for driving the business to make sure they've got careers, to make sure that they've got livelihoods, to make sure that we deliver great stuff for our customers.
00:33:11:06 - 00:33:30:21
Unknown
On an ongoing basis. So from from very little pressure to quite a lot. Yeah. Almost overnight. But we're two and a half years in now. Learned a lot over the last, two and a half years. And honestly, I don't know what the next nudges going to be now. Just so, but I'm sure there will come true for me.
00:33:30:22 - 00:33:49:19
Unknown
But there will be more. Of course there will be more. Yeah, definitely. There's sort of two angles that net you talked about, you know, you were wondering, you know, what your legacy is going to be and what you can leave behind. The more impact you're going to have. And that that feels quite personal, doesn't it, it to you.
00:33:49:21 - 00:34:12:15
Unknown
But then suddenly you are responsible for all of the, these other people. And developing these is also you've got sort of two levels of responsibility there that you'll suddenly, suddenly landed with what was was it a shock to the system, or did you find the transition easy? What what what would you go back and say to yourself, you know, just before you took over that role?
00:34:12:15 - 00:34:35:19
Unknown
Now, with everything you've learned. Not easy. So, the responsibility of of running a company is, is is never easy because it's really important. It's really important to all the people that you just described there. You know, that puts that puts pressure on the family because of, being quite frankly, really immersed in it. I'm one of these people who's either all in or not.
00:34:35:21 - 00:34:54:04
Unknown
Yeah. So when I'm doing something which is so important to me and those around me, I give it everything. Absolutely everything. And again, going back to those formative years, it probably all stems from that. Yeah. So I do think you can you can be half in to these things. You've got to just give it all it is. So, no, but absolutely not easy.
00:34:54:05 - 00:35:29:02
Unknown
And lessons along the way around how to deal with people and the differences in behaviors of people and how they will outwardly express it is different. And yeah, the lack of feedback that you get, if I could talk to myself from two and a half years ago, I would just say, look at your expectation bar a little bit lower in terms of the way people will engage with you, the way they'll react to you, as a leader, because they're not going to react to you in the way that you would react to yourself, if that makes sense.
00:35:29:04 - 00:35:51:18
Unknown
It's, it's a strange thing, I think, isn't it, going from being an employee in a business and then suddenly running it and and responsible for it is did you have any challenges in terms of the team and how they responded to you change behavior with your new role? And was that, you know, how was that for you?
00:35:51:18 - 00:36:14:19
Unknown
Because I can imagine you're going to be treated differently. They're definitely treated differently. But actually treated well, I think over the years, having been around for a long time and built up a good amount of goodwill. So in the bank with the team and again, going back to some of those values that I talk about treating people as, saying they have really served me in good stead.
00:36:14:19 - 00:36:38:04
Unknown
So yes, people do treat me differently because I'm the CEO of the company. So there's get they're going to be naturally a little bit more guarded I think. Yeah. I've got to be mindful of, of my presence around people sometimes not because I'm going to judge or do anything any differently. But I'm not thinking about it from that perspective of I think about it from mine.
00:36:38:06 - 00:37:03:00
Unknown
So. But no, I think generally, people have treated me more or less the same, maybe was just a little bit more godness hey, is good. Yeah. So I can go back to the point it should be nonhierarchical. People, have absolutely every right to come to me and say, I don't like this or I've got this idea or I think this is we can do this differently, and I actively encourage doing that.
00:37:03:02 - 00:37:22:11
Unknown
Some people will feel less comfortable doing that just because of the name of the role. And it doesn't matter how often you say it's okay to do this, please come to me. Some people still feel uncomfortable with that, but generally I would say that's that's not not a problem at all in mental. That's brilliant. That's really good.
00:37:22:11 - 00:37:48:13
Unknown
Yeah. What would you say to those leaders then that are still living in the, you know, in the era of glass, closed office receptionists, you know, really invisible, almost hard to approach, hard to get to. Are you quite you know, do you chat people. Do you walk around like what. You know, I just those those types of leaders at the moment feel very old school now and very out of touch.
00:37:48:21 - 00:38:10:18
Unknown
I mean, I talk to everybody in anybody. I think we've got to be, we've got to be visible. We've got to be present. We've got to be approachable. There's no point being closed away in an office and not listening to people's perspectives and ideas, because actually, as leaders, we absolutely do not have all the answers.
00:38:10:20 - 00:38:27:17
Unknown
And it's a myth if we think we do. So how can we get the very best from our people? Well, we we give them a level of autonomy. We give them a level of, ideation and, creativity. There's there really is no such thing as a bad idea. It doesn't always mean they're going to be taken forward.
00:38:27:17 - 00:38:53:06
Unknown
But yeah, you've got to embrace those around you and allow them to come up with the solutions. Because if we think as leaders, we've got all of the solutions. We're kidding ourselves. It's just not absolutely. Yeah. You need those people to drive the business. And especially if you're not in the nitty gritty day to day and you're overseeing things, you need those different perspectives, to help you make those decisions 100%.
00:38:53:08 - 00:39:16:15
Unknown
You, you talked a lot about values, and that's something that's really important to you. How do you keep those, and behave in the same way that aligned to your values? When you're under pressure or your work into uncertainty, or there are some challenges within the business? Yeah. Great question. I actually think the values are even more important when you're under pressure.
00:39:16:17 - 00:39:39:16
Unknown
I really do. So, you know, whether it's you're against the number or, you know, the market conditions are, not as easy at the moment. Now's not the time to deviate away from values. So now's not the time to treat people differently. Now's not the time, to to not be transparent. Now's not the time to be unapproachable.
00:39:39:18 - 00:40:06:08
Unknown
Because actually, if we're feeling it and we exhibit those behaviors, the people who work with us feel it as much. Yeah. So, you know, you you've got you've got to, I personally try very hard. And I'm not saying I don't get it right all the time. And nobody does the values of that anchor that come back to that, make sure that you are doing the right things with your team, with people along the way.
00:40:06:10 - 00:40:27:23
Unknown
And it is difficult. You just have to be more mindful of it when things are a slightly more tricky and catch yourself from time to time. Yeah, no, don't do that. You know, make sure you, you behave in the same way. But it does slip every now and again just because we're human beings. Yeah. So, you know, I try very hard to be, quite considered in my behaviors, in my emotions.
00:40:28:00 - 00:40:47:20
Unknown
But I'm also a human being. So from time to time, that might not always be the case. It's how you then deal with that after, after the event, especially when you're dealing with people, that shows that your values are still there. Yeah. So wishy washy answer, I'm hoping, because I think values are so important to root you into the way you should behave.
00:40:47:22 - 00:41:06:20
Unknown
Yeah. Whether times are good or bad, the emotions are the bit we said slightly more difficult to control. Yeah. And like you said, we are all human and we all, you know, lose control sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, we're all animals. And it's, Yeah. Like you said, it's how you come back from that and how you deal with it.
00:41:06:22 - 00:41:30:00
Unknown
And how how is it? I just want to go back to the, you know, you're part of a team. You're part of the workforce almost. And now you're the CEO. You have that camaraderie and team spirit within the business in one part, when you're actually transitioning to to being that leader, you know, it can can be quite isolating because you don't have that.
00:41:30:00 - 00:41:52:11
Unknown
You can't have the same conversations with the same people, maybe that you were having before. Do you have that support now as like by the through your own mentorship or, you know, through your wife, like how do you who do you offload to? Yeah, my my wife's a great sounding board. And a great perspective changer. So, you know, I do.
00:41:52:12 - 00:42:14:24
Unknown
Yeah. You have to offload, some of what's going on to someone and she. Great. She listens and says, yeah, but what about this? What about that? And I'm like, oh yeah, yeah. Good point. So Joe's absolutely brilliant for that. I have a coach and I think all leaders should have a coach where you try and find ways to improve, the way that you behave, the way that you interact.
00:42:15:00 - 00:42:34:23
Unknown
I don't think anybody should ever stop learning. I never stop trying to find, you know, their own marginal gain to make them better. So I have a coach that I work with on a monthly basis. But also I solicit feedback. I'm a little bit of a feedback junkie, actually. So from members of the team, direct reports, I say, look, give me some feedback.
00:42:34:23 - 00:42:58:02
Unknown
Where's my marginal gain from your perspective? And again, some some people across the business are a bit more guarded. Okay. No everything's fine. Others not so much. No. Go. Well, let me tell you this much. But yeah, I'd be careful what you wish for sometimes, but I think it's really important to have that that sounding board number one, but then have that feedback loop to try to prove for me to try and improve.
00:42:58:05 - 00:43:17:13
Unknown
Because two and a half years is not a long time. And I'm still learning loads of stuff, in terms of running a business that I know a lot more than I knew two and a half years ago, I now know a lot more in two and a half years than I know now. So I think in the absence of getting that feedback loop in, you're really missing a trick.
00:43:17:13 - 00:43:40:04
Unknown
It's important, to make sure that's an ongoing process 100%. That's an interesting point, actually. You were in the sales department, and now, so that would be where your expert knowledge was. And now suddenly you are going to have to be involved by default in all of the other systems and processes departments within the business. How how have you navigated that?
00:43:40:04 - 00:43:57:10
Unknown
Is it training on how things work, or have you got great people that you can just leave that stuff to? I don't need to be an expert in every department and what they do, that's not my job. So, so great functional leaders within the business who know far more about what they do than I'm ever going to know.
00:43:57:12 - 00:44:16:01
Unknown
Yeah. And I'm respectful of that. So it goes back to the point that we made a moment ago. If you're if you're locked away from your team, how can they come to you with ideas of improvement, thinking to know better than I know around how you can improve operational efficiency or customer experience or whatever it is.
00:44:16:03 - 00:44:34:06
Unknown
So I know a little bit I know enough enough to be dangerous. Right. But but I don't know it all. And I think, I think having having the leaders in the business who know their functions far better than I do. Yeah. And then people within their team who know far more than they do is the healthy way to do things.
00:44:34:08 - 00:45:09:23
Unknown
Amazing. Yeah. It's that, you always hire someone who's better than you, right? At what? Absolutely. Do within the business. Always do that. I guess in your case, though, you've you've inherited the team. So is that, have there been any challenges as it where you thought around, you know, values and behaviors are there? I appreciate you probably can't be, you know, going into detail with this question, but it's easier, I suppose, if there is a founder who is building a team from scratch, because they can make sure that they're hiring the people that they like to work with, I think would be a good fit.
00:45:10:00 - 00:45:29:20
Unknown
And I've spoken to others who have worked their their way up, and they've inherited teams that are maybe not what they would have chosen for various reasons, as there been any challenges around that. I actually think is a bit of a myth that you say, well, we will start the team from scratch and build it up and recruit exactly the people that we watch.
00:45:29:20 - 00:45:48:06
Unknown
Really hard to do that. By the way. Yeah, because because, people are predictably unpredictable. So what you what you think you're going to get from someone you don't always get from somebody. So whereas with the team that that we inherited as the MBA, we knew the people, we knew the individuals, we knew their strengths, we knew their foibles.
00:45:48:06 - 00:46:09:01
Unknown
If that's such a word. Yeah. We we knew all of that. What we do have is a North star. Three values openness, one team and ownership, which we all we go into into that. Yes. There's sometimes behaviors that are exhibited that I personally wouldn't do doesn't mean they're necessarily wrong, but if they are wrong, you have to feed that by with evidence to say, you know, you did this.
00:46:09:06 - 00:46:33:00
Unknown
This was the impact to your customers or your team. Yeah. Or whatever. Not doing something about it is not an answer. So, actually, we've been quite fortunate to have to have got a team together who have very experienced, very loyal and very trustworthy. And then the skill then is to just like I mentioned a moment ago, keep finding those marginal gains to improve the team along the way.
00:46:33:06 - 00:47:03:01
Unknown
That's work in progress. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Just revisiting a little bit about what you do. What do you think, businesses are getting wrong, about hiring and training sales teams today? Split this. That's split them out in terms the hiring thing, first of all, is they're not clear about what they're hiring for. What the roles, what the role is, what the attributes need to be, what the experience need to be.
00:47:03:14 - 00:47:20:24
Unknown
Far too often people will go for a safe hire. So they've been in that vertical industry already and they'll say, well, we need someone in that vertical industry. Not always true, because actually someone from outside is is a good thing. So but it has to start with, what what what is the profile that you're recruiting for?
00:47:20:24 - 00:47:40:08
Unknown
What are the skills and attributes that are non-negotiables for you? And what are some of the, the, attitudes and mindsets that you're looking for from the hire in order to do it? Some of the mistakes people do make and we've been we've been responsible. As responsible as anybody is, we we hire people that we know because we know them.
00:47:40:10 - 00:48:00:10
Unknown
And then often you get people that are very similar to you because we're gravitate to people like us, good, good rapport. So we do that. And I think that's not always the best way, because you then don't get fresh thinking or different perspectives. Interested in. So that's a watchword, you know, be clear on what you're recruiting for. And then and then take time.
00:48:00:10 - 00:48:26:20
Unknown
Don't rush it and find the right fit. And it doesn't have to be somebody with years of experience that would be the best person you could be, someone with the most adaptability. The most, growth mindset is individual. It could be anything. So but don't rush. I think often hires are made at pace. And that can often unwind as you go into the process.
00:48:26:22 - 00:48:50:20
Unknown
So that's the first thing. Sales training, which is what we do, is really interesting because it sales training is not an event. It's not a right. Let's do sales training and do a two day event in, you know, August 2025 and tick the box and job done. It goes back to what I was, Peter was talking about earlier with sport and with the ATC and everything else.
00:48:50:22 - 00:49:17:11
Unknown
You don't just train once and then everything is different. It doesn't work like that. The brain is, is, is frankly not that adaptable. That quickly takes practice. It takes, repetition. It takes coaching, it takes feedback. So, you know, event based training in many cases doesn't work. Sales training or, management training or change, whatever it is, whatever the topic is, it doesn't matter.
00:49:18:09 - 00:49:45:10
Unknown
It's about making sure that you can systemize the learning into your day to day role. That's where organizations sometimes make a mistake and say, well, we've got to do X number of days training per year. And then we've we've tick the box. No. Yes. Train people up. And of course, people are far more, likely to absorb information in smaller bite sized chunks these days just because of the nature of the way we consume information.
00:49:45:12 - 00:50:10:20
Unknown
Yeah. And then practice it. Go and give it a go. Get some coaching. Try it again. Get some more coaching. Try it again. That's the way the brain creates stronger neural pathways from that from that loop. So and the second point I'd make and then I'm going to stop Rabbiting on about this is when times do get tougher in organizations, quite often one of the things that goes first is training.
00:50:10:20 - 00:50:26:09
Unknown
Oh no, we can't afford to train the people. We can't afford to take them away from their day to day role. That's when you do need to be training them, because if things are difficult and you're trying to get hold of new customers or you're trying to, retain existing customers, that's when you, you shop in the store.
00:50:26:09 - 00:50:59:02
Unknown
That's when you improve the skills and capabilities of your team to make sure you get the very best customer experience. You've got the very best value proposition you can engage them in the right way. That's that's why training is vitally important now. And this is not a shameless plug. Just by the way. It really isn't. Because what you know, what we do working with sales teams, we're deeply passionate about, and this message I'm giving to you about the importance of learning something, and then practice it over and over again, and then being coach, it's just the way that we work.
00:50:59:04 - 00:51:30:09
Unknown
What I do know is when people are finding times difficult, that's when you need to, you know, you need to develop, you need to improve, and you need to, you know, find those marginal gains. Absolutely. Yeah. No, I'm asking because I am interested with, you know, businesses that I'm talking to or working with, you know, hiring for sales roles or they are looking for a new BDM or whatever it is, but they are often quite unclear of what that these do look like and what the, objectives of that role.
00:51:30:11 - 00:51:50:16
Unknown
I know this is probably, Highlands piece of string question, but maybe there's, there are some general ones, but what what attributes should a business be looking for if they are looking for that that first sales role? What what makes a good salesperson and what makes them coachable as well so that you can continue that learning. Yeah. Good question.
00:51:50:16 - 00:52:11:07
Unknown
So so definitely a growth mindset. So all the stuff I've been talking about, people's belief that they are not the finished product. So you can be you can be trained, you can be developed and you are likely to be a different seller in this case, a year from now, you're not you're not fixed. In fact, you know, I often I've can joke with people who say I've got 20 years experience.
00:52:11:07 - 00:52:49:06
Unknown
I say, have you got 20 years experience or have you got one year repeated 20 times? Because sometimes it is that that they just continue to do the same thing. Sales is changing so fast now because of, technology and automation and how I could be used to drive operational efficiency. You definitely need to have, a techni a technology mindset around how you can use AI and other tools to frankly, make you more efficient, give you much better knowledge of your customer, in a much quicker way, provided you do it in the right way.
00:52:49:16 - 00:53:12:17
Unknown
You've absolutely got to still be focused on, the customer and the outcomes of the customer and not on personal gain. Yeah, I say that quite deliberately, because if you look after that, the other will follow. But if it feels like it's internally focused, I. What I'm doing is, is driven to achieve my goals. Customers will smell that a mile off.
00:53:12:19 - 00:53:36:16
Unknown
Yeah. For sure. Relationships, your ability to adapt your behaviors. So who's in front of you. Still really really important. Sales is the oldest profession in the world right? So and people buy from people they like or people buy from people like them. So if your behavior is a certain way and you're not adapting it, you're probably going to be successful 1 in 4 times.
00:53:36:18 - 00:53:59:02
Unknown
Whereas if you can adapt to them and their outcomes, you're going to be successful far more often. So if I look at that, it's the ability to grow and adapt. Growth mindset the ability to embrace technology and have a level of technology literacy, the ability to make sure your focus is absolutely on the customer and then build great relationships.
00:53:59:02 - 00:54:26:04
Unknown
Now I could go on, but as I look at what the most successful sellers are doing, they're going to be pretty good at all four of those areas. Yeah. What do you say to the, the old I don't think if it, I don't know if it is old school, but the idea of the, the farmer and the hunter scenario and that you need these two types of people within a business, because the building relationships thing is often associated with the farmer.
00:54:26:10 - 00:54:47:00
Unknown
And then you know that the hunters just out there, just like pummeling, is the is that still valid or is it, you know, a bit of a myth. Yeah. Well, it's not a myth, because actually, when you look at Hunter and farmer roles, they they often do have slightly different attributes. So one is more, driven by high levels of activity, a bit of a numbers game.
00:54:47:00 - 00:55:08:13
Unknown
You have to have a bit of mental resilience and toughness, particularly if you're doing your own prospecting, because you're going to get a lot of no's. Some people just don't like that. They don't. They don't like that at all. The point around rapport is equally as important for both, because, if I'm dealing with somebody who I've never met before, my ability to create fast rapport as a as a hunter is really, really important.
00:55:08:19 - 00:55:34:15
Unknown
And then focus on them really, really quickly. Yeah. And both sides, so it it's not rare, but it's more unusual where you see people who can do both, both roles really well. Wow. Because if you were let's say it's not a myth. It's absolutely not me. No, no. And actually, in my experience, fewer people want to do want to roll over a farmer.
00:55:34:17 - 00:55:58:04
Unknown
Yeah. Now, whether that's a perception of ease or whether that's perception on far better building long term relationships as a, as a farmer, that some of the skills and attributes, are the same. The biggest difference is when you are doing a new business role or hunter role. Unless you've got a fantastic lead generation source or be dieting, you have to do a lot of that work yourself.
00:55:58:06 - 00:56:23:06
Unknown
Yeah. And some people choose not to do that. That's that's the biggest difference. Yeah. Is, is what you mentioned about tech and automation and things like that is is cold calling. Is there still a place for that? Or does it now need to be worked into there? Sort of, you know, the tech, the automation sequence as a stack for instance, like how do you see that now?
00:56:23:08 - 00:56:49:03
Unknown
So both actually so, so new business in particular is about sequencing now using technology and picking the phone up. I'll tell you, I haven't been in the role for two and a half years, nearly. At the end of, at the end of September, I've received three cold calls in two and a half years. Wow. Probably 3000 emails.
00:56:49:05 - 00:57:12:21
Unknown
Yeah. And I've not responded to a single email. And that's not me being rude most. And just go straight into the spam filter. Yeah, they do for me. Anyway, the three calls I did have, I engaged with them, and had a conversation with them and I didn't buy anything full transparency because it's not what we needed, but the fact that people made the effort to call work for me.
00:57:12:23 - 00:57:37:21
Unknown
Now that's me, my generation. Buyers of different generations might not respond at all to a cold call. So it goes back to that agility piece. Yes, again, doesn't it? You've got to know your audience. You've got to know who you're contacting. You've got to know what what's going to be interesting to them. So sequencing, providing you know what your ideal customer profile is, you know, what the value proposition is to them, not to you.
00:57:37:21 - 00:57:58:19
Unknown
To them. Yeah. And then you and then you keep a campaign going using technology, of different modalities and, and. Yes, pick the phone up from time to time. Why not? It absolutely does still work. It is still important. Interesting. Yeah. Lots of, teams resist it still. And they like. Well, no one's in the office anymore.
00:57:58:20 - 00:58:20:21
Unknown
Everyone's working from home, so they're not going to answer their mobiles all the rest of it. And do tend to avoid it a little bit. It's a limiting belief. People still do pick the the phone up if we want to, a deal with a customer. It's a slightly different angle, but during, 2021. So after Covid where we couldn't see anybody during 2020 anyway.
00:58:20:21 - 00:58:50:22
Unknown
So that was a moot point. But this particular one, I went to see them in person. And actually the feedback they gave is the reason that we went with you as a new customer was because. So you. Yeah, yeah, that's all right. They'll carry on throughout 2021. So the reason they they chose us in the end is because they said you were the only because you were the only supplier out of five that we are talking to who made the trip to come and see us in person interest.
00:58:50:22 - 00:59:15:04
Unknown
Now you go. You think about all these unique selling points and everything else. I was really easy. Just turn up. So and similarly, if someone picks the phone up, for me personally, as a buyer, I'm more likely to engage in. So it does change based on who you are. But sometimes the basics are missed and the basics of engagement and engagement in the relevant way to the buyer.
00:59:15:06 - 00:59:35:09
Unknown
They're just missed and we get stuck behind technology sometimes and actually sometimes a bit lazy as well. We go right, we need to do 5050. Outbound so we can send 50 emails. Tick. Done. And that's the wrong metric. The right metric is if you've sent 50, how many did you get a response from? How many of you had to follow up with.
00:59:35:11 - 00:59:53:07
Unknown
So you focus on the wrong things? So, so technology in a, in, in sales, if you think about it, is a bit of a seesaw where technology played a lower part historically. There was there was some automation and, Google alerts historically and other things that you could use, but they were great for feeding information.
00:59:53:09 - 01:00:16:19
Unknown
What's going to happen over time is it's going to just sort of start to tilt the other way where, technology, including AI, can do a lot more of the automation and fact finding and materials production proposals and a number of other things. It can help you, create all of those. Now, what's going on? Careful of is that we don't lose that personal touch.
01:00:16:21 - 01:00:46:09
Unknown
So when using things like AI is I plus the seller or the sales leader or whichever role that you're in, to make sure that what's being created is being sent, checked, it is being validated, it is accurate, it is personalized, it is delivering the outcomes that the customer is looking for. Because I think and you use the word lazy, but there there could be a school of thought that says all this automation is going to mean I'm going to have all these, these hours in the day to do to do nothing.
01:00:46:09 - 01:01:08:03
Unknown
But that's not true. Well, what technology is going to give are hours in the day back to do other things. And it could be more proactivity with your customers, could be visits more cool. It could be loads of other things. So the truism is embrace the technology because it's really going to help it. Really? Yes. Making sure that the personalization is still evident there.
01:01:08:03 - 01:01:30:00
Unknown
That's the skill of, of a modern seller to to bring the two of those together. Absolutely. Is with within the work that you're doing with businesses at the moment, do you find that there are still there is still resistance to using that technology and then you, you're, you're having to educate them and train them on how to implement that.
01:01:30:02 - 01:01:49:16
Unknown
Yeah. And and resistance or resistance to technology and resistance to training you again. Because if, if if you think of, you know, a typical seller though, they'll be pretty busy and they have the pressure of, of targets, they have the pressure of volume of work coming in and they'll go, I haven't got time for that.
01:01:49:16 - 01:02:05:07
Unknown
I've got time to do X, Y or Z. You know, I know, I know, I need to learn the technology, but, you know, I'll pull that off and go down a lock. So again, goes back to that growth mindset. We we have two, two schools and four others working. Right. Here's an opportunity. How can I embrace that. Others will be yeah but it's fine the way it is.
01:02:05:09 - 01:02:24:07
Unknown
So you know, part of the skill of what we do is, is helping people to unlock that growth mindset and go, look, there is a different way. Give it a go and then practice it and then be coached on it. And because otherwise you've got 20 years experience repeated 20 times and you're not different and you're standing still.
01:02:24:09 - 01:02:49:05
Unknown
And I think anybody, any anybody in any role would always say, look, I'm quite happy and comfortable with the way things are. Well, I is bring in in particular at the moment is such a rapid pace of change that is genuinely uncomfortable for some people. So, you know, as leaders and certainly, well, what we do with our customers, we just got to help people see the value of it, see the benefits of it, see what's in it for them.
01:02:49:17 - 01:03:07:11
Unknown
And then the individual makes the choice. Yeah, yeah they do. They need to make a choice, but they do need to either. Yeah, they need to embrace it. And they understand the benefits of how it can influence and make their jobs more efficient, Nazi said. Give them back the time to do the more proactive and valuable work.
01:03:07:11 - 01:03:31:04
Unknown
Definitely. Yeah. You've you mentioned growth mindset quite a lot. And it's one of the things that I most value in a person, that, curiosity, if you're not learning something. That's why, you know, we're not all all experts at everything. Is that something that you value in, in the teams and the other management you work with?
01:03:31:04 - 01:03:52:01
Unknown
And what are you reading right now, or what are you learning right now that's going to, influence the way that you're leading in the business? Oh good question. So I, I listen to a lot of audiobooks. So I have read the or listened to I say read just for the ease of, of everybody watching the Carol Dweck book on growth mindset.
01:03:52:03 - 01:04:14:01
Unknown
Great book. I've recently read one called Turn the Ship Around, which is all about how leaders react to great, great, and leader in the I think it was the US Navy took took control of a submarine so promoted and took control of the submarine and talked about some of the challenges they had with a more, directive leadership style.
01:04:14:09 - 01:04:34:02
Unknown
How when you, simple thing it was it would encourage the, the crew to come to him and say, I intend to do this, that or the other, I intend to. So rather than go and say, what should I do? I intend to do, I intend to turn the ship, whatever it may be. Yeah. His response would be very well.
01:04:34:02 - 01:04:50:18
Unknown
Oh, wait, ask a question. If he wasn't sure that it was the right decision at that point. It's a really subtle bit of language change, but it puts the empowerment and the autonomy back into the individual. And by the way, it really encapsulates a growth mindset because you're not saying you need to come to me. I've got all the answers.
01:04:50:23 - 01:05:11:19
Unknown
You're saying you've got the answers, give me the solution, and then I'll just endorse it. Yeah. And that was I read a whole load of other things like, I've read stuff by David Goggins around Can't Hurt Me, which is all growth mindset stuff. I've got a book on my table about marketing at the moment, because I'm trying to learn a bit more about that.
01:05:12:20 - 01:05:30:09
Unknown
Yeah. And various other things. But just generally what I would tend to do is, is listen to I won't take it all on, I'll listen to a book and then I'll go. Actually, I really like that concept of that one. One. The other ones I just recently read was the book called legacy, which is the all black book.
01:05:30:09 - 01:05:48:00
Unknown
Yeah. What a what a great book. And and just from that, it was the, the mantra, you leave the show in a better state than you found it. Yeah, I think about that from a mental perspective. And having taken it from Jim, Chris and Neil go actually, how can we make this, this company, this organization better than it was before?
01:05:48:00 - 01:06:07:10
Unknown
So when we pass it on in future, it's in an even better shape. The simple, the simple principles. Yes. But I think with a growth mindset, you just listen. Go. I really like that. I'm going to try it. Yeah. And then move on and don't join digested. All because it's just not not you can't. Yeah. You can't take it all in especially.
01:06:07:10 - 01:06:25:09
Unknown
Yeah I, I listen to a lot of audiobooks as well. And it's if you were going to implement everything in each of those books, like it would just be impossible. So you, you revisit them don't you? Depending on what challenges you you're going through. But what was your favorite, by the way? You've asked me, what was your favorite book you've read recently?
01:06:25:10 - 01:06:53:09
Unknown
It is, to be, what what's it called to be? It's the Jim Collins second one. So. Oh, and off to get off to get to great on entrepreneurship 2.0 yeah. Is what it's called. I'll, I'll put the link in the, the comments for the podcast. But it was, it was brilliant because it's it's like you said, it's all really like basic foundational stuff that we kind of know.
01:06:53:09 - 01:07:12:23
Unknown
And we know that we should be doing, like the identifying the values, communicating the vision to the team, but all the way through to, you know, change and transformation conversations. And it's a big chunky book, but it's one of those that you'll always go back to that particular chapter when there's something going on that you feel like you need a little bit of inspiration for.
01:07:12:23 - 01:07:40:01
Unknown
But yeah, it's it's brilliant and it's really worth revisiting. Over and over again. I feel that that one especially they've updated it from the previous one. But that legacy is fantastic. Legacy and legacy is a book that I did hand to a leader once when I left. Left of business because it was, I really need you to read the bit about sweeping the locker room floor.
01:07:40:03 - 01:08:04:17
Unknown
You know, that that bit about, you know, being part of the team and and mucking in. Yeah. And understanding everyone's value and roles. Definitely 100%. And nobody's bigger than any task. And that's what I share with you, by the way. And again, I'll caveat this is not a shameless plug. Shameless plug away. Go for it. So I, I listen to a book called The Infinite Going by Simon Sinek.
01:08:05:07 - 01:08:31:15
Unknown
And the Infinite Game says often we think about things in, in, you know, in moments and, and that's life. And it's not life. Life is about everything we're talking about in here. These nudges that are leading you to a to an ongoing journey, an infinite game. Yeah. And, and and I was walking a dog who you just heard a moment ago and I thought, well, he's describing sales really well because actually in sales we think of things in a moment of opportunities.
01:08:31:15 - 01:08:51:01
Unknown
We create an opportunity. We close an opportunity, we move on to the next one. But that's not right, because actually the best salespeople engage the customer, understand what they need. Yeah. So sell them a solution and then they'll make sure it works and that the customer gets value and then they'll look for the next thing. So it's infinite.
01:08:51:03 - 01:09:11:19
Unknown
Yeah. And we wrote a book called Infinite Selling. Two years ago, myself and James Barton, who's, chief solutions officer for mentor Group. It's two years ago. And I'm saying that again, deliberately, by the way, because when we wrote the book the first time round, I was not as prevalent in selling as it is right now.
01:09:11:21 - 01:09:35:16
Unknown
So we're rewriting it now. In fact, it's been rewritten now to integrate AI into the concepts of infinite selling, which will come out early next year. So it's not shameless. Can't buy at the moment in the old version, which is which is not not in doubt anymore. But it's really interesting because again, going back to your point, it was the concept on that Saturday morning dog walk that I had with Dexter, who's my dog.
01:09:36:03 - 01:09:55:17
Unknown
The thought, that sounds like what we do and then spawned the idea, shared it with, with James. James wrote the vast majority of the manuscript and I gave some inputs as well. An infinite setting was born. But if I hadn't have listened to that book, never probably have come up with the idea. So you're right.
01:09:55:17 - 01:10:17:23
Unknown
You don't need to absorb at all. What you just need to do is take those component parts and go, yeah, I'm going to use that. That's useful. That's going to make me better than I was. Yeah. Move forward 1% 1% gains. Margin okay. Yeah. 100%. Love that fat. And yeah you're right that some the best ideas come from those, those walks don't they.
01:10:17:23 - 01:10:42:08
Unknown
And the being out of the business and yeah, not staring at screens. Yes. Definitely. Definitely worth doing. If you look back across your journey then and all those little nudges, unexpected ones or, you know, opportunities that you did chase, what do you think? If you could predict, what do you think the next or what would you like the next nudge to be like, where are you?
01:10:42:08 - 01:11:17:23
Unknown
Where are you going to be in that five year time? Well, I there's a question, the company that I represent now, mentor Group, with all the people that we're in, I love what we do, I really do. We we we we work with, you know, tens of thousands of sellers per year. And I like to think that even if to your 1% rule, even if we can improve people's experience of being a seller, their performance by 1%, but at least then we leave a really good legacy behind us.
01:11:19:02 - 01:11:41:22
Unknown
Of course we want to grow. We want to we want to meet more people and do more things. If if my company or the company I'm part of can be known in the marketplace outside of our customer base is our customer base already know that we do good stuff by more people, and we're seen as being purposeful and delivering real change to people.
01:11:41:22 - 01:12:06:06
Unknown
Five years from now, whether I I'm still with mentor or we move on and do something different, I'll be pretty happy with that. LaVar because that that makes a difference. That the best part of my job is when I hear customer feedback around it can either be a team or an individual that they've tried something that we've talked about and they've they've moved the needle some it's giving them a better work life balance.
01:12:06:08 - 01:12:24:10
Unknown
It doesn't it doesn't matter what it is, but it's made a difference. Made a difference. More of that we can do the better the better it is. And again, that's not self-serving. It might sound it because we go all we want to deal with more people. Every company needs to grow to make sure we provide opportunities for our team to grow.
01:12:24:11 - 01:12:45:13
Unknown
Yeah. And to bring more people in. That's what growth is all about. The way to do that is by giving a fantastic customer experience. More people hearing about it and wanting a part of it, which means we then affect more people whose lives we positively impact. That's really what it's all about. Yes it is. Yeah. And no, it doesn't sound self-serving at all.
01:12:45:13 - 01:13:08:03
Unknown
It's, it's full circle, isn't it? Back to that legacy conversation right at the beginning. Like leaving behind something better than where you found it and helping more people. Do that. That's 100% along the way. Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. What advice would you give someone on the cusp of a bit of a career shift or, then being nudged to somewhere?
01:13:08:04 - 01:13:38:07
Unknown
Like what? What would would you give them in terms of going with that got or. I mean, so listen to your gut for sure. There was a, there was a, CEO during my Vodafone days. There was a CEO and I remember vividly was at the Newbury HQ and, he was talking about a change of role and, and what he said was, and I'm not going to swear, but I'll use the word he said, unless you have an off moment.
01:13:38:13 - 01:13:55:21
Unknown
Yeah. And you're thinking of your next move, don't do it because it's probably going to be a little bit too safe. And I've always held on to that. And I thought, wow, you know, because if you've got that I'm going to be doing this, then it's going to be you and it's going to be a little bit where it's going to bring you into a different place.
01:13:55:21 - 01:14:13:00
Unknown
So I've always held on to that and thought in anything that I do, if I don't have a if moment, it's probably just going to be a new for the move sake. So that's, that's the first thing that the thing that I often talk to people when I'm coaching is I say that there's two questions. Number one is what do you want?
01:14:13:02 - 01:14:29:20
Unknown
And the second is how will you know when you've got it? So the the good NLP based questions what do you want. And you take one. That's an easy question. It really isn't. Because as soon as you get into that what what do I want. What do I really want? Is it more money? Is it a better work life balance?
01:14:29:22 - 01:14:52:06
Unknown
Is it more status? Because that's important for some people. What is it. And then and then once you know that, how will you know when you've got it? What's your measure of success that will often help define where you go next? That's such a good example that with an off moment, then you are doing something for a good reason for for a purpose rather than for the sake of it.
01:14:52:18 - 01:15:12:07
Unknown
And that's quite different. Sometimes we have to do some things for the sake of it if we find ourselves in various difficult situations. But if it's, if it's looking at the next move, I would always think about those three things off moment. What do you want? How will you know when you've got it and will give you a good stare as to whether you're making the right decisions, and then listen to your gut?
01:15:12:09 - 01:15:29:05
Unknown
I love that, I love that it's that, if it doesn't scare you, is it worth doing? Yeah. The duration as well. Yeah. Is it your life? Yeah. Do you want to stay in a comfort zone or do you actually want to do something? Yeah. That's good. Yeah. That was a quote. And I'm going to misquote it, by the way.
01:15:29:05 - 01:15:49:01
Unknown
But it was I think it was Oliver Wendell Holmes. And he said the mind wants expanded to the realms of bigger dimensions. Never, never goes back to his original size. So so you go if you if you stretch your comfort zone, if you stretch your, your mindset around what you could do is never going to go back to where it was before.
01:15:49:01 - 01:16:09:19
Unknown
That's, that's that's the old adage, do something every day that scares you. Yeah. Because once you've done that, it doesn't scare you. Tomorrow it's the same. It's all the same psychology. Yeah, the same principle. But, yeah, that that the sort of things I think about I love are great advice. Great advice. Amazing. I'm going to bring it back round to the alchemy theme.
01:16:10:08 - 01:16:33:00
Unknown
To to end. But if you had a personal alchemy ingredient or formula for success, well, what would that ingredient be? Or what would that look like? What's the one thing you have to carry through that career? It's how help treat people well. Treat people equally with respect. You look after people, they'll look after you. You don't look after people.
01:16:33:00 - 01:16:59:17
Unknown
They won't look after you. That's a non-negotiable for sure. Hard work. There's there's no two ways about it. We're not. We're not gifted things in life. You have to go. And sometimes it's going to be deeply uncomfortable. So, grit, determination, hard work. And then have a go. Have something that you want to aspire to be and, you know, keep going, keep persevering.
01:16:59:17 - 01:17:14:09
Unknown
Have a bit of stoicism because it's not a linear path. So if you want to be over here, it's not right. I'm going to go like that. It's sort of all over here. And sometimes you go backwards. But if you're passionate about it and the goal is something you really want to aspire, keep, keep going, keep the hard work.
01:17:14:13 - 01:17:32:13
Unknown
Make sure you involve those around you, the people that you love and the people that you work with. You might love them as well. So those are the three alchemy things I would say. And by the way, I haven't prepared that. So that's the things I've just come straight from my gut. I love that, I love that perfect, perfect answer.
01:17:32:15 - 01:17:50:04
Unknown
Thank you so much for your time. I feel like I could talk. Yeah, I've looked great fun. Thank you for being brilliant. I really appreciate it. And thanks for getting me thinking. Because again, you know, in the spirit of growth mindset, I'm now thinking, Crikey, I wonder if what happened all those years ago really did lead me to this place or whatever.
01:17:50:09 - 01:18:12:22
Unknown
So it it's nice to sort of talk it through and yeah, look at that path. So thank you for that. No problem. I did an exercise once in I think it was in a leadership program where we kind of mapped out the, the milestones of and individually, we did milestones in our life about all the things we think of, nudged us to where we are now.
01:18:12:24 - 01:18:36:13
Unknown
And then we did a, an imaginary milestone mapping of what happens from this point in the future. And that kind of helped with the goal setting on that end. But it was really therapeutic to sort of see the life journey of where it's taken you. And actually all of the things that you've endured and pushed through and achieved.
01:18:36:13 - 01:18:54:16
Unknown
So yeah, super therapeutic. And I think, yeah, that's a good exercise to do. Yeah. Yeah. Great. Thanks, Matt. Appreciate it. Thank you. My pleasure. Thanks again. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. One scale. Look out for another episode dropping very, very soon.