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What happens when a word meant to describe something specific becomes the language we use for everything? In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW explore the cultural overuse of the word “trauma” and why that shift, while validating, can sometimes blur what people actually need. Drawing from clinical insight, they clarify that trauma is not just something painful, but something that overwhelms the nervous system’s ability to process in real time—ofte...
What happens when a word meant to describe something specific becomes the language we use for everything? In this episode of Lumen, hosts Christopher Mooney, LCSW and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW explore the cultural overuse of the word “trauma” and why that shift, while validating, can sometimes blur what people actually need. Drawing from clinical insight, they clarify that trauma is not just something painful, but something that overwhelms the nervous system’s ability to process in real time—often leaving the body reacting as if the event is still happening. Christopher and Kenyon break down key distinctions between single-incident, complex, and vicarious trauma, along with the spectrum of “Big T” and “little t” traumatic experiences—while also examining the risks of overidentifying with trauma as a fixed identity or applying it to ordinary human pain like grief or disappointment. The conversation highlights how unprocessed trauma shows up through reactivity, avoidance, and disconnection, and why real healing often requires body-based approaches, relational safety, and careful pacing—not just talking about the past. At its core, this episode is about precision, not gatekeeping—because when we can accurately name what happened to us, we have a better chance of finding the kind of support that actually helps.
To book a free consultation with Christopher, Kenyon, or the other providers at Lumen Therapy Collective, visit lumentherapycollective.com.
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Right Here is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for therapy, diagnosis, or treatment. If you’re experiencing a mental health crisis, please contact local emergency services or a trusted mental health professional.
Right Here is a mental health podcast that explores the psychological patterns shaping our relationships, choices, and inner lives. Hosted by therapists Christopher Mooney, LCSW, and Kenyon Phillips, LMSW, each episode offers grounded, compassionate conversations rooted in clinical insight and real human experience. No jargon. No judgment. Just clear, thoughtful dialogue designed to help listeners better understand themselves and the people around them.
SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Lumen, a
podcast that sheds light on
mental health, relationships,
and what it means to be human.
I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Kenyon
Phillips, LMSW.
Each episode we unpack
psychological patterns that
affect our relationships.
No jargon, no judgment.
SPEAKER_01: Just thoughtful
conversations to help you
understand yourself and others a
little more clearly.
Somewhere along the way, the
word trauma became the word we
reach for whenever something
hard happened.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
Anything that's that's
challenging is now labeled
trauma.
SPEAKER_01: And that's not true,
but we look at like a difficult
childhood, a bad break breakup,
a boss that made us feel small.
And look, these these things
were they're hard, they're
difficult.
There's a lot of things in life
that are hard and difficult.
Most things.
Yeah, most things are difficult
to deal with, but and they leave
marks, right?
And they they're these are
things that shape us.
Yeah.
But they and none of that is
none of that, it's it's not
nothing.
It's not nothing.
SPEAKER_02: It's for those
people who are traumatized in
the clinical sense, meaning they
experience something that was so
overwhelming that their nervous
system couldn't handle it.
For those people who grew up
with, you know, serious
gratuitous violence, really
intense disasters, accidents.
The danger here is that people
who go through those kinds of
experiences start to wonder does
this word apply to me?
Did I really go through
something like that?
If you having a shitty boss is
equated to me having a
life-threatening car accident.
SPEAKER_01: It it takes away
from that.
Yeah, it takes away from that
word.
It almost takes away from the
value of the word trauma.
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
SPEAKER_01: Right?
We get the the experience gets a
little lost in in trying to
figure out the definition and
applying it to everything.
So I think today what what I
would love to address is you
know how overused and
underserved that word in the
populations are.
As we continue, kind of, you
know, last last time we talked
about the overuse and misuse of
boundaries.
Right.
And today we're gonna talk about
trauma, maybe uh overuse and
misuse of of that word
everywhere.
Social media is definitely
contributed to once again.
SPEAKER_02: Social media
contributes to it.
Because I noticed social media
would have, I think social
media, many channels would have
us believe that anything we go
through is trauma.
We're having a trauma response.
Right.
And, you know, it's yeah, I just
I would love to just be a little
bit more precise.
Because, you know, we're we're
committed to busting jargon, but
we're also, I think part of that
is is just being, okay.
This is specifically clinically
what this term means.
This is what it means in a
practical real world sense.
And so hopefully listeners can
just be empowered.
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
To under in understanding the
the the meaning of these words
and maybe having a different
relationship with that.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And how they apply.
Exactly.
SPEAKER_02: But it's not like
we're gatekeeping suffering
here.
It's not like we are trying to
determine, okay, well, you know,
your suffering doesn't count as
trauma.
Mine does.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
Yeah.
No, that's that's definitely not
what this is.
Hard things are hard.
Yeah.
Full stop, right?
End of sentence.
Then we have the spectrum of,
well, this is hard.
And then here's something that
was traumatic.
Here's something, here's
something that has lingered in
my mind or in my body for for
years or since it happened.
And that's that's I think going
to be one of the distinctions we
can get into.
SPEAKER_00: So absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: This is this is a
conversation really about
precision because the clinical
concept of trauma is specific.
It's well researched, and it's
genuinely useful.
And when it gets stretched to
cover all of human difficulty,
two things happen that are worth
examining.
People with serious trauma
histories lose the language
about that experience, as you
were saying.
And people with ordinary pain
get handed a framework that
might m actually make things
harder rather than easier.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
There is because if it's if
something is challenging,
difficult, painful, but not
traumatic or traumatizing and I
mislabel it as traumatic or I'm
told, oh hey, you went through
trauma, then my resilience is
compromised.
There's a ch because I think
there's a difference here that
we should probably distinguish
between, hey, I went through
something that was traumatic and
saying I am traumatized and
having that be my identity.
SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit
more about what that difference
is.
SPEAKER_02: The difference is if
I label myself as traumatized,
I'm traumatized by that, I'm a
trauma victim, I'm a trauma,
even I'm a trauma survivor.
To a certain extent, that
becomes your qualifier for
existence.
That becomes your identity.
Right.
And the potential issue with
that is it rules out getting
better.
It rules out resilience.
It rules out being something
other than traumatized.
Again, it's really there's a
there's a great reward in our
society for identifying
ourselves with hard things that
we've gone through with
suffering.
We think that this will keep us
safe.
We think that this will maybe
benefit us.
And, you know, it's the same
sort of idea, the same thinking
behind, you know, we don't
nowadays in in mental health, we
don't say, oh, that person's
autistic.
We say this is somebody living
with autism.
This is somebody who's on the
autism spectrum disorder.
Right.
SPEAKER_01: Person first, then
issue.
SPEAKER_02: And I think with
trauma, it's a similar thing.
There's a wonderful book that
Oprah Winfrey has done a lot to
promote, and she co-authored it,
What Happened to You?
And it it draws this, it makes
the same distinction that we're
talking about here.
It's not that I am a victim of
childhood sexual abuse.
I experienced childhood sexual
abuse, and I'm a person who's
also a therapist and you know,
me, for example, and a singer
and a dad, and you know, a
purveyor of strange and exotic
clothing.
So it you know, it it it doesn't
limit the identity to the pain.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
And I think that's where that's
where we can get caught up.
And I think you you brought up
this interesting point before
that that I was kind of
lingering on in my mind as you
were talking.
I was paying attention.
But go on.
I it's but I was thinking about
yeah, I was thinking about this
this thing you said.
It's like the the identity we
end up holding on to, and that's
it becomes the thing that we
define ourselves by.
And you know, generally in in
the work we do, that's that's
kind of a dangerous idea, right?
It's a harmful idea.
And I think what we need to look
at is that like you're saying,
the big picture.
What are all of the pieces that
that make up you know ourselves
as a whole?
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And when I think of
like the narrative approach to
therapy and just kind of what is
our story, how are we writing
our story as we go?
When we when we hold on to one
negative thing, and and this
goes back to when we've talked
about negative thinking styles
and just kind of like the the
repetitive, unhelpful thought
process that we have, like
always, I'm not good enough, I'm
not good enough, I'm not good
enough, like those things going
through our mind.
This contributes to it.
And I think if we if we mislabel
or or this is where it becomes
that that thing where it gets
harder rather than easier, is if
we mislabel something or
misappropriate this thing, it's
it makes it harder for us to
feel like we actually have a
chance.
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
SPEAKER_01: And it and it keeps
there and it it actually
pre-writes our story for us, and
that is what we want to avoid.
Right.
When I think of like the
narrative approach, and I I love
this approach of hey, you know,
m all of the chapters written so
far, there could have been some
really, really awful chapters.
There could have been some whack
stuff that happened in the pages
up to this day.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: But we're writing
each day as we go.
So if we're really truly living
in the present, where we have
the ability to write each day as
we go.
And we we can reference the
chapters we've written in the
pages we've written, in the
sentences, and even down to the
minutiae, down to the words, but
we still have an ability to
write the rest of the story
differently as we go through.
And and that's what we want to
do.
We want to set, we want to set
the the table and the stage to
actually write something
different.
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
And to write something that
isn't painful, and that it that
is I keep saying the using the
word resilience, you know,
however we can promote it.
Tell it tell us what resilience
is again.
Resilience, as I define it,
would be, or as the way I use it
is our ability to overcome
whatever our circumstances are
that are challenging, that are
limiting.
So an example of someone being
resilient is you go through a
terrible plane crash, you
survive it.
You think I'm never getting on a
plane again.
And then you find yourself in a
few years, maybe in a position
where you actually do have to
travel by plane.
There's it's an emergency,
there's no way out.
And by doing whatever work
necessary to overcome those
fears and that story, as you
mentioned, of what happened in
the past, and to believe that
okay, just because that happened
once doesn't mean it's gonna
happen again.
That's resilience, being able to
get on that plane and travel by
plane after surviving a plane
crash.
That's one example that's pretty
basic.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's that's
perfect.
It's like this idea, it's like a
force field around us, right?
It's this this ability to to
weather through difficult times.
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
So let's go back and talk about
clinically what trauma is.
Yeah, exactly.
And so trauma is, you know, when
we have an experience that
overwhelms our nervous system.
And it overwhelms our nervous
system's capacity to process it.
So it's not just something
upsetting, it's actually
something that exceeds the
window of what we can actually
tolerate and metabolize and and
process in real time.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
Dissociation is a perfect
example of that.
Like, what does that look like
in the real world?
Say you are a child and you are
being terribly physically
abused, and you actually leave
your body because there's no way
if you stayed in your body you
could tolerate that level of
pain.
SPEAKER_01: That's your nervous
system actually like checking
out.
Just saying, you can't do it.
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, this is
the only way we can survive
here.
SPEAKER_01: Blacking out when
drinking is actually a similar
thing.
It's your brain's automatic
safety to say, can't handle all
the alcohol coming in.
We're gonna shut off everything
right now.
And just it's it's like just the
systems to survive going and
that's it.
But yeah, I think of it the
same, the sim in a similar like
it's your your body's automatic
like defense and and survival
system.
So I want to think of the
nervous system like a container,
right?
So it's it's ordinary stress can
fill it and it empties, and then
trauma overfills it in in a
moment.
It spills, yeah.
SPEAKER_02: And then whatever
spilled is left on the floor.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
For for us to slip on and and
step in and and and soak our
socks.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Um, I always I I think of like
this, I I use this this
reference when I talk about
anxiety a lot, which is the idea
of we have a bathtub, and if you
fill a bathtub to the point of
right before it overflows, you
know it's it has, and I forget
what the the phenomenon is
called when you the water
actually exceeds the it gets
that like skin over it.
And so you can fill out an
entire bathtub with all your
stressful events, everything
that's happening to you
throughout your life, throughout
your day, and all it takes to
overflow an entire bathtub is
one drop.
So you can take an eyedropper
and just drop that right on
right on the edge of the
bathtub, right where that that
kind of edge of that that skin
on the water is, and all of a
sudden, way more water comes
pouring out of that bathtub.
And it just and it just takes
it, yeah.
You can try it with a cup, even
it's not gonna be just a drop
that overflows, it's gonna it's
gonna break that surface
tension, right?
It's all those molecules holding
tight.
Our nervous system's the same
way, it's like that container
filling up and filling up, and
we do things kind of to
self-care to empty it.
But right, if we're at the brink
and that trauma comes through,
it's it's gonna all of a sudden
flood and splash over.
SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
Yeah.
The I've been talking about, you
know, the example I just gave
was like single incident trauma.
Sure.
Which is where you have we have
an experience that is that
overwhelms our nervous system,
makes the bathtub overflow, but
it's like a single incident.
It's an assault, it's a uh an
accident, a natural disaster.
A natural disaster.
Right.
It's like one event.
And then there are other types
of trauma.
More complex.
That are yeah, complex
developmental trauma is another
word for it.
And this is something that's
repeated, prolonged.
Sometimes it's not as intense
as, you know, I think about like
I was in 9-11, I was down there
for 9-11.
So when the tower fell, I was
down there.
That was a single incident
trauma.
And then complex developmental
trauma being neglected by a
caregiver on an ongoing basis
for several years.
You're not necessarily gonna
have an acute response to that,
although you could.
You could, but over time, it
does traumatize the person.
SPEAKER_01: Well, this is we
talked about this with shame.
Yeah, and how and how low level
or or lower level consistent
trauma or neglect or or
experience can contribute to
different kinds of experiences
later on in life.
How we kind of it kind of shapes
our personality.
We get shame, people pleasing,
all those things that we've
we've we've talked about uh, you
know, at times.
And so, you know, this is this
is really an important
distinction between the two
different kinds of trauma.
I think, you know, and I've
talked with people a lot about
this.
I think as human beings, we are
much more well equipped to deal
with single event traumas.
Yeah.
I think because we can look at
it, we can define it, we can
say, this thing happened, here's
how it hurts me.
What do I need to do to get
through this?
How do I make sense of this so
that I can move forward in my
life?
Right.
It's almost like it's cleaner.
It yeah, it's a clean, yeah,
yeah.
It's I think of a clean cut,
right?
You always want, like, you know,
it's just something that's like
you can stitch it, you can you
can let it heal, you can work on
it.
There's a there's a defined
problem.
Right.
And it doesn't make it less
important, it doesn't make it
less traumatic, it doesn't make
it less hurtful, but it does, it
it almost makes more sense in
our minds as humans.
That complex trauma you're
talking about, that that kind of
developmental low level.
I think of like uh domestic
violence a lot of times.
And like that's just you, it's
it's that that consistency where
you start to doubt yourself.
You don't, your, your resilience
really wears away.
Right.
And your ability to tolerate any
discomfort then really kind of
gets worn, picked away at.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
And it's easy for I think an
outsider to say, well, if you
didn't experience that single
incident trauma, then it's not
trauma.
But, you know, we have so many
examples of complex trauma being
experienced by somebody, a
child, for example, you know,
growing up in a household with,
as you said, domestic violence
or neglect or alcoholism, you
know, like some, you know,
alcohol abuse.
Or just anger.
Anger.
SPEAKER_01: Just dealing with
other people's anger.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
And that, as you say, has an
effect on the development of the
personality and the coping
mechanisms.
And it usually wears down the
coping misses.
I think that we talked about
ACE's adverse childhood
experiences a couple episodes
ago.
Yeah.
That's these are all examples,
this complex trauma,
developmental trauma.
ACEs are so insidious because
they basically block us from
being able to, or they lower our
potential for having resilience.
SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
SPEAKER_02: Feeling for
rewriting the narrative.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
I want to add another piece in
here, and this just kind of
stuck into my mind really
quickly.
You know, we work with a lot of
people who have attention
deficit disorder, we do, and and
other learning issues.
And I think those when we talk
about co-occurring mental health
issues, I think the field kind
of looks at substance abuse and
mental health.
I I really think the true true
co-occurring mental health
issues are learning issues and
mental health issues.
Because one typically leads to
another.
And I just want to flag this
because you said something about
like this when we started
talking about like anger and the
the experiences of like
developmental trauma and complex
trauma, when we think of kids
who have learning issues and
they you know, they grow up in
their home and you know, the
parents are kind of constantly
interacting, it's it's easier to
navigate.
Once a kid goes to school, they
suddenly, even if they're not,
even if they're not kind of
picked on or highlighted as
being different, or but if they
start to think and they look
around and they start to see
that maybe they don't color in
the lines the same way, maybe
you don't read the same way as
the other kids in the class,
that's also this kind of like
complex low-level experience
that can lead to a bigger
trauma.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: And and we because
it starts to lead to this
feeling of of being other and
not being okay and not fitting
in, and it starts to define that
person as something else.
So we don't I don't think we
usually think of that as a
low-level, consistent or complex
traumatic experience, but I
think in many cases it can be.
SPEAKER_02: That type of
comparing and despairing, yeah.
Type of comparison that somebody
with a learning difference.
Because it's it's quiet.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because it's
quiet and it's it's there's no
there's no word for it.
Yeah.
And I think what happens is that
it's an experience and it's a
painful experience that can
overwhelm.
And I think of like just how
painful even as most adults, and
we've talked about this, the
being othered, the not fitting
in, but you think about like
like a five-year-old or an
eight-year-old or a
ten-year-old, yeah, if they're
it's gonna hit hard.
It's gonna hit hard, and they
don't have the vocabulary or the
ability to identify what it is.
Right.
And that becomes really that's
where if you can't, if you can't
say what it is, that actually
leads to more of this traumatic
experience.
Right.
Because you're you you don't
have the ability to to name it.
SPEAKER_02: That's a huge part
of what I think constitutes
trauma.
Even the going back to the click
on the clinical definition where
it's overwhelming.
The the nervous system is
overwhelmed by whatever the
experience is, that in and of
itself is also a version of not
being able to name something.
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
You can't fit in, you can't, you
can't, you don't have the
processing ability to make it
work, and then you're alone and
you're stuck there.
SPEAKER_02: That's the thing.
Yeah.
It's really it's so damaging.
And to label ourselves as such,
this is, you know, I'm
traumatized, I have, you know,
learning differences.
I have ADHD.
I'm, you know, I just I'll never
get over this.
I'm always gonna need extra
support.
I suck.
Yeah.
I remember going to grad school,
I had a I was a really good
student.
And and then I bombed a test.
And the professor was like,
What's going on, dude?
Like, you're so on it, you're
such a good student.
Why did you bomb this midterm?
It was a final.
Why did you bomb this final?
And I said, I don't know.
I he's like, everything he I
said, I ran out of time.
I got freaked out.
Yeah.
And I froze.
And he said, Is there a history
of that?
And I said, Yeah, when I was
starting as a kid, you know,
generalized anxiety disorder and
also situational anxiety around
test taking.
It started when I was 10, really
common.
Right.
Yeah.
And I thought I'd grown out of
it.
And I hadn't been in school for
decades when I went to grad
school.
So I explained this to him and
he said, Makes sense.
You every answer you got, you
got right.
Yeah.
But you didn't get, you only got
through half the test.
If you had gone to the Office
for Disability Services, I would
have been able to give you more
time on the test.
Simple fix, right?
Really simple fix.
So, you know, you can bet your
ass.
I called the Office for
Disability, it was too late for
that class in that semester, but
for the next semester and the
following semesters, I
registered.
And and again, I could have
viewed that situation two
different ways.
I could have viewed it as I
suck, I fail, I am always going
to have this kind of anxiety,
and I'm therefore never going to
succeed.
Or deal with it as, oh, okay,
this was a bit of a setback, and
there's a solution for it.
And going forward, I won't have
to bear the consequences of that
suffering.
I'm not alone.
Yeah.
I can ask for help.
You can ask for help.
SPEAKER_01: There was a word for
it, and somebody helped you with
that too.
Yeah.
You know, I want to get into
that the the people who help.
And, you know, there's this,
there's the, there's, there's
another kind of trauma that I
think we we we talked about that
single event.
We talked about the complex
trauma.
There's vicarious or secondary
trauma.
Yeah.
And I was thinking about this.
We had this wonderful
conversation with with Kat about
grief and loss.
And she referenced vicarious and
secondary loss as well.
And and it this happens with
trauma too.
And we see this with people who
are consistently exposed to
other people's trauma.
Right.
And that would be us.
Therapists.
Therapists, first responders,
caregivers, anybody really in
the caregiving field.
And it is it's real, it's
documented, and it is definitely
worth naming, especially in for
anyone who works in a helping
role.
Even if they're not, even if
their job isn't a helper.
Right.
Right.
Even if they're not a social
worker or or therapist or a
first responder, if you're just
taking care of a someone who's
sick or a loved one or someone
who has some kind of medical
issue, when you think about what
you're you are exposed to as a
helper, right?
That is that can really
contribute to trauma.
And what does that look like,
that secondary vicarious trauma?
How does it show up?
That's it's gonna show up, I
think, with as as you know,
exhaustion.
We start to say burnout,
burnout, exhaustion, depression,
anxiety, feeling.
Think about the feeling when you
when you're working with
somebody, you can't, you don't
have the answer, yeah, or you
can't fix, or it's just there's
something in front of you that
you you don't have the ability
to make it stop.
Those those are the kind of
feelings I think about just
being as a as a therapist, like
the the consistent conversations
and just kind of input of really
difficult things, and that can
be a spectrum of difficulty.
It can be like, hey, I had this
interaction today, or the anger,
or all the way through hearing
just about other people's
horrible experiences.
It it's a weight.
You feel it, it's a weight on
your chest, it's a weight, and
and you feel that pit in your
stomach.
And over time, it works much
like that complex trauma where
it it wears down on you.
Yeah, it wears down on you and
it leads you to feeling more or
you're more prone to bouts of
depression, maybe dysphoria,
sadness, just shutting down.
SPEAKER_02: Shutting down,
trying to protect yourself as if
the trauma has occurred, has
happened to you.
Yeah.
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's kind of
hard to not take that on
yourself.
Yeah.
Right?
You're you're filling, you're
you're filling your bathtub with
or your yeah, your bathtub with
other people's like really awful
experiences.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
That's so interesting.
I had I had a friend comment not
too long ago, you know, ever
since you became a therapist and
stuff, like you are so much
happier.
You're just you're so upbeat.
And isn't that kind of weird?
Like, aren't you like exposed to
some heavy stuff?
And and I thought about it and I
was like, I really like, you
know, Kat Hurley talked about
being a a grief nerd and just
talking about how working in,
you know, she's working in a
very difficult field, yeah.
Grief, loss, and bereavement.
But she's like, I really am
passionate about it.
And if I can help people get
through it, you know, that's and
I think that's sort of my I
guess that's my take as well.
I'm a therapy nerd, uh trauma
nerd, maybe.
I it it it it is enlivening,
yeah, and deeply satisfying to,
you know.
I never liked small talk anyway.
So this being able to go hard
and deep.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
Let's just let's just let's just
get there.
We'll we'll hit it.
Yeah.
Um Kenyon, you do so much work
with body and somatic work.
I'm wondering if you can talk
about how trauma happens in the
body for for people.
SPEAKER_02: I'm a big believer
in Bessel van der Koch and his
book, The Body Keeps the Score.
In the 70s, he created the PTSD
diagnosis.
And his theory, and it's
beautifully sort of put forth in
the book, The Body Keeps the
Score, I recommend people read
that, is that trauma is stored
in the body.
We don't really think our way
out of trauma, we move our way
out of it.
We and Vanderkoel writes you
know, if we don't feel safe in
our bodies, we're not gonna feel
safe in our environments.
If we don't feel safe in our
environments, we're not gonna
feel safe connecting with other
people.
And if we don't connect with
other people, we're never it's
kind of like your narrative
therapy example.
We're the story is gonna be
written, we're never going to
connect, we're never gonna get
over this or build any kind of
resilience.
So the the body remembers
whatever the traumatic episode
was and stores it effectively.
SPEAKER_01: And so it sounds
like body work is also part of
trauma work, like it has to be
part of the trauma work to work
to work through these things.
SPEAKER_02: I that's why I'm a
huge proponent of DMT dance
movement therapy, which uh
involves moving the getting
people to feel safe in their
bodies again through movement.
It's not necessarily like dance,
it's not like a TikTok dance or
Broadway or jazz hands.
It can be, but it's it's mostly
about like understanding that
okay, if I want to move past
this, yeah, I've got to get
through it.
If I want to get through it,
I've got to kind of get it out
of my body and learn to feel, as
I said before, safe and
comfortable in the body, which
we it's a phenomenon that's well
documented.
We feel safer when we're moving
as humans.
If we're moving together, maybe
eye contact and having a
face-to-face conversation is
tough for many of us, especially
people who have experienced
trauma.
But walking side by side,
fishing, taking a run, not
having to make eye contact, but
knowing that you're there next
to me and we're having a
conversation, suddenly that
feels really safe.
Yeah, there is a safety in
somatically.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: And somatically, I
mean like in the body.
Yeah.
Yeah, there is, there's totally
a I I I'm just thinking and
reflecting on times that I've
been, like if I am with somebody
doing those things, it there is
there is a sense of safety.
It's not just the camaraderie,
it is that you do therapy that
way.
You do ecotherapy.
I do.
I love I love going out with
people in in the woods, taking a
walk on a trail.
I've gone fishing with a client
before, and I plan on doing more
of that.
If anybody wants to go fly
fishing, 100% out for that.
You know, I won't be braining
any fish though.
Like we're we'll catch and
release.
Okay, I got it.
Yeah.
But no, it's it, it is a it's a
different experience.
It's a shared experience that
you can have where you you I
think you get to realize that
other humans can be safe.
Yeah, the other home and in that
and you can allow yourself to
open up a little bit more.
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: But once that
experience of of you know the
the nervous system being
overwhelmed has occurred, the
nervous system has a great
memory.
Yeah, our bodies have a great
memory, and it will hold on to
that in because again, we're
always scanning for danger.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: So that's why I
think in you know, even basic
things that are I'm very
grateful they're in the common
sort of lexicon now of touching
grass.
You know, people talk about
touching grass.
But I mean, that actually is
that's a sound move for
somatics.
SPEAKER_01: It's such it's such
good advice from and everybody's
always like, okay, boomer.
But that's like I thought about
I was on a I went for a long run
yesterday and out in the woods,
oh no, Sunday, and and I was
just way out in the middle of
the woods, muddy, covered with
just like all sorts of
everything.
Yeah.
And I thought I actually had
that thought.
I was like, oh, like I'm out
here touching grass.
I was like, it's such a boomer
thing.
SPEAKER_02: But that is it is,
but I mean, it was around before
the boomers were, yeah.
I I've had the the incredible
experience of just being able to
like do long distance running in
a natural environment, in like,
you know, foothills or even
mountains when I lived in
Colorado or or Montana.
And it is absolutely grounding.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: It is so grounding
because I get a sense of
perspective when I'm out there
in the natural world and I
realize, ooh, I can't control
this.
I didn't make this.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: And it it's
humbling, but it's also very
calming.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01: I want to come back
to that when we talk more about
like maybe how to deal with some
trauma, because that's a really
good point, like getting out and
re-like grounding and and kind
of forcing yourself into the
environment that that could
sometimes be scary too.
Right.
So I want to acknowledge that.
I want to talk about big T and
little T.
We've heard this a lot, you
know, especially as therapists.
We always hear, like, oh, that's
a big T trauma, that's a little
T trauma.
Right, right, right, right.
These are really useful clinical
distinctions that that we want
to make sense of.
So tell me what a big T trauma
is.
SPEAKER_02: Big T trauma is
something that's undeniably
traumatic.
It's what most people think of,
I think, when you hear that
word.
So it's it's something that
happened that you survived, that
someone survived, but at great,
tremendous cost.
Like there's no way you could
get out of that unscathed.
SPEAKER_01: So when you
mentioned being at ground zero
and for 9-11 for 9-11, that
would be we would look at that
and say, that's a big T trauma.
Yes.
Here's an event we can say,
obviously, everyone who was, I
would say, arguably in the New
York area, like dealt with a
trauma that day.
Big time.
And that was, and and because a
lot of people knew people, or or
if you were there and you
experienced that, is nobody
would look at it and go, like,
yeah, it wasn't traumatic,
right?
SPEAKER_02: No, no, no.
There was like there's an FBI.
I remember the FBI agents were
out in the streets, and and one,
and one of them was like, We're
all gonna had lost it and was
like, We're we're all gonna die.
You're all gonna die.
And I was like, Oh, okay, we're
dying.
I'm dying today.
And to get through, to survive
that meant I have PTSD.
Right.
I I I did all the preparations
one does while running away.
And so, yeah, that's big T
trauma.
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
SPEAKER_02: Where you there,
there's no question.
Little T trauma can relate more
to almost like the complex
trauma that we were talking
about earlier, experiences that
may not look so dramatic on the
outside, but they're but they
did overwhelm the nervous system
of the person involved.
So that can be chronic,
especially if it's we're talking
about childhood, chronic
neglect, chronic criticism.
A parent who's emotionally
unavailable.
That's part of neglect.
Being consistently dissed and
dismissed, yeah, humiliated.
SPEAKER_01: There's like no real
story to point to, but there's a
there it sounds like there's
this consistent experience that
gets internalized.
And and so I think it's more
like a the consistency is the
key.
You're right.
Your nervous system's learning
something about the what the
world is like, yeah, but you
keep operating that way long
after that experience is done.
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like
death by a thousand cuts versus
big T trauma, which is like the
guillotine.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
It's yeah.
I'm just I'm just sitting here
like thinking it's like, God.
But that is it's so accurate.
That's I was like I think like a
good French revolution
reference.
Reading the Sade will do it to
you.
Yeah.
This distinction's important
though between the two things
because I think a lot of people
dismiss their own experience by
comparing it to something worse.
That's the point.
Well, I wasn't abused, my
parents were just not
emotionally present, or you
know, I didn't go through, I
wasn't at, you know, ground
zero, I wasn't in the towers, I,
you know, I was away at school,
or like by the way, everybody
who I didn't mean you know, but
like ever everybody who's
experienced something traumatic
does that.
SPEAKER_02: That's one of our
defense mechanisms.
That's right, is to minimize and
compare, comparatively minimize.
Well, I didn't have it so bad.
SPEAKER_01: I hear that almost
every day from from somebody
that I'm working with in some
way or another, that kind of
well, it it's other people have
it much worse.
Other people have been through
much worse.
Look at well, look at the other
things I have.
Right.
If I have an apartment, still
problems.
Always people always say, Oh,
it's a first world problem.
It's a first world problem.
That is minimizing the
experience of of something that
may have been really traumatic.
SPEAKER_02: That's a really
wonderful point because
experience is subjective.
There is yeah, there's a
spectrum, but at the same time,
we all wherever you land on that
spectrum, and I'm talking about
privilege, I'm talking about
equity.
Yeah, it's problems are
problems.
You said at the beginning of
this episode, you know, hard
things are hard, full stop,
right?
SPEAKER_01: No matter where you
are.
That's right.
It it's it what matters is how
is how it was overwhelming and
whether it was overwhelming to
our nervous system at that time
with the resources we have.
When I think about explaining,
like, you know, when we talk
about like, oh, people do the
best they can with what they
have at any given moment.
And I've talked about that that
last piece being an important
distinction.
At any given moment.
That is the same thing with
internalizing trauma.
If it overwhelms our nervous
system at the time we experience
it, depending on the resources
we have available to manage it.
So I mean, at 46, I might have a
huge vocabulary as a therapist
to explain a feeling.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: But 10, I probably
didn't have those words to use.
Right.
So now I can I can explain it.
I can I can have an experience
that'd be like, okay, it might
not have the same impact as when
I was 10 or 8 or 15 or 25.
Yeah.
You know.
So that's we want to think about
like what resources we have
available in that moment too.
No, that's important.
So go ahead.
No, no, no.
No, I want to so when we think
about recovery, like, you know,
in a significant amount of
people who, you know, develop a
problematic relationship with
substances, underneath that,
they're probably managing a lot
of unprocessed trauma.
Oh, all the time.
unknown: Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: All the time.
Often little, little tea.
Little T.
It could be big T.
Big T is like, oh, there's a lot
of things happening.
I gotta go to the bar.
Right.
That's almost it's almost like
socially acceptable.
Oh, this really horrible thing
happened.
I need a drink.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02: But it's been said
by a lot of recovery sort of
theorists that addiction,
substance use disorder, whatever
you you any of these sort of
like problematic behaviors are a
trauma symptom.
And I think Russell Brand
initially popularized that idea
as well before he kind of like
moved.
He's in now.
But he he he wrote a book called
Recovery, and that's the central
premise.
Yeah.
Is that these are that addictive
behavior needs to be understood
within a context of trauma and
symptomology.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01: Kenyon, you talked
before about the difference
between I have a trauma history
and I am traumatized.
Yeah.
And one describes something that
happened, and the other is a
story about who you permanently
are.
Right.
And I so let's go back and look
at the the hierarchy and kind of
like, you know, what when we
talk about trauma to cover all
of human difficulty, a few
specific things that happen that
are are worth naming.
Right.
So we have a problem with, you
know, the people with serious
trauma histories, complex
developmental trauma, assault,
war, they start to wonder
whether they are allowed to even
use that word, as you said.
Right.
Does this word apply to me?
SPEAKER_02: Because yeah,
because we hear things,
especially on social media, like
everyone has trauma.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
And so it's it's the experience
becomes not that difficult or
not that different from
everybody else.
Right.
And then it's and then it's
that's not a small thing that
when we think about it.
It really minimizes the
importance of people who have
experienced war, assault, you
know, any of the other complex.
And and you know, we we haven't
mentioned people coming back
from war.
No, and and veterans, and I
think just how tremendously
underserved they still are, even
though everybody talks about
support, support your troops,
like, oh, we need to be aware of
like PTSD and war and and the
experience of that, it is
they're still just so grossly
dismissed and underserved.
Absolutely.
With and especially dealing with
trauma.
Yeah.
And it's interesting because
most of our trauma treatments
come out of research done with
troops and veterans coming back
from war.
SPEAKER_02: As I said, Bessel
Vanderkohl came up with the the
PTSD diagnosis specifically
through working with Vietnam
vets.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
We think EMDR, all that research
was done on vets.
ART, accelerated resolution
therapy, that that was a lot of
the work was done and research
was done with with vets.
And and these are all related to
like the again, physical eye
movements and how the body kind
of like processes trauma and
where it's stored, et cetera.
The other the other thing is you
know, this identity trap that I
think people get caught in
that's it's that's what we were
talking about earlier.
Yeah, right.
Identifying with your trauma.
Right.
It becomes a fixed state, right?
It's that my in and like the
it's I am traumatized rather
than my nervous system learns
something that I'm I'm now
working on to to to change or to
update.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
Rather than saying I experienced
something that was really
difficult.
Yeah.
It's almost like this thing
happened.
I am never gonna get past it.
Yeah.
It's sort of like that idea of
having of being broken.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
One is one is a noun, one's a
verb, I think.
It's this kind of idea of like,
here's my label versus here's my
process and here's what I'm
working through.
SPEAKER_02: It's very different
to say I am traumatized than it
is to say I'm doing trauma
therapy.
Yeah.
The second is empowered.
The second is related to change.
SPEAKER_01: Words are extremely
important.
Yeah.
We can't just dismiss things as
semantics.
I think the we've talked about
this when we when we went over
negative, you know the kind of
negative thoughts and the
negative.
Unhelpful, yeah, unhelpful
thinking styles.
It's the same thing.
We we the way we reference
ourselves is important.
The way we talk about ourselves
is extremely important.
SPEAKER_00: Right.
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, we want to
we want to work on identifying
different words and how we
reference trauma.
SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
SPEAKER_02: And how we reference
ourselves.
I mean, am I we we we contain
multitudes.
We are many things.
You are many things.
That's right.
I love to talk about how you're
a therapist and a banjo player
and a dad and a runner, yeah,
and a tech nerd.
SPEAKER_01: An eggplant parm
connoisseur.
SPEAKER_02: Eggplant parm
connoisseur, photographer.
SPEAKER_01: We can actually just
we can actually get rid of all
the other stuff and just talk
about eggplant parts.
SPEAKER_02: Let's just talk
about eggplant palm let's
because let's prioritize and
hierarchize it.
But the the thing is, and you've
also been through some tough
stuff.
You know, how much of our
identity do we hang on what
we've been through or what we
love to do?
I've been through some shitty
stuff.
Yeah, and I can tell you right
now, the things I love to do
take up a whole lot more of my
life than memories and
complications related to my
PTSD.
SPEAKER_01: By the way, not
everything that hurt you rewired
you.
No.
That's and and so within this
when we talk about trauma and
resilience and how we move
through it, it's really it's
really important to remember
that that not everything that
hurts us rewires us.
Not everything that hurts us
lingers for a lifetime.
Not everything that hurts us
sticks with us and and and
changes who we are as a human.
It's right, it's a reference
point, it's something that
happened, but it can be it can
be an experience that we
transcend, it can be an
experience that we kind of work
through.
It can just be a difficulty that
that we've had to navigate.
Right.
And then other times it does
rewire us and kind of like has a
lasting impact.
But there it's important, and
and this is where I think the
the issue with what I see you
see with social media comes in.
That trauma content performs
really well online.
Yes, it does.
So people are getting tons of
clicks because they talk about
trauma.
Hopefully, we get tons of clicks
today talking about trauma.
But you know, it's it's the
issue becomes everybody goes,
oh, that's me.
In a 30 second clip online,
somebody goes, Oh, that's me,
that's me.
It's it must be trauma.
It must be this trauma issue.
I definitely have have this
thing.
And I think it really takes
away, it changes the framework
and it changes the framework of
how we think about trauma, but
it's because it it actually
resonates with us.
Emotionally, and I think that's
why people that's why it works
so well to hear it all the time.
But it's it's not accurate.
Resonance, when we have a
resonance, when something
resonates with us and it sits
with us, that that's not a
diagnosis.
That's just that it feels like
it, it it feels kind of like we
connect with it.
SPEAKER_02: We connect with it,
it's familiar.
Um it yeah, we identify without
I want to be careful about using
the word identify.
To feel something though, to
feel something deeply is
connecting.
And the other part of like
trauma content performing well
is the same reason like there's
always traffic when there's an
accident because people want to
look, people want to like rubber
neck.
There's some we have as humans,
we have a compulsion to look at
terrible things, things that
overwhelm our nervous systems.
That's right.
SPEAKER_01: I think it's I think
it's it's it's we I always think
it's a fear of like we we're
worried about what could happen
to us.
We have to see.
We have to see.
No, it's like a vicarious thing.
You know, if we build this, if
we build these identities though
around social media frameworks
or things that we read or hear
on online without any support,
without any, without
understanding context and
nuance, it actually can delay
the real work that we need to
do.
And I think that that's that's
it can set us back for sure.
Yeah.
Kenyan, let's talk a little bit
about how trauma shows up.
Yeah.
Like unprocessed trauma, like
the genuine nervous system level
trauma that overwhelm and and
some of the different ways that
it tends to Yeah, because
there's a there's a stereotype
that like a traumatized
individual is just gonna have
like flashbacks all the time.
SPEAKER_02: Like you think of
like the classic Vietnam vet or
something, you know, who from
growing up in the 80s who was
like, you know, shell-shocked.
And it's it's very that's one
version, not the only version.
So yeah, they're speaking to
that reactivity that's sort of
like disproportionate to what's
actually going on in a given
situation where someone is very
clearly responding, the body is
clearly responding to something
that's happened in the past
that's not happening in the
present.
SPEAKER_01: Right.
It's as it has no connection to
the to the now.
Right.
Okay.
SPEAKER_02: And that's you know,
that can often be called sort of
labeled as as a flashback.
This is the one that I see more
than any other, and that's
avoidance.
unknown: Okay.
SPEAKER_02: Avoidant behavior.
Yeah.
Anything that uh involves having
to deal with situations, people,
circumstances, conditions, uh
feelings, conversations that are
at all related to the
traumatizing event.
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
So that that can look like
anything that kind of almost uh
that mirrors what like that
event could have been.
SPEAKER_02: And I've I'll see
it.
Here's an example.
I'll see it.
There's say there's an adult
child who was not physically
abused by his mother, wouldn't
legally be called abuse, but
definitely shamed chronically,
and about, you know, for
example, his appearance.
Your appearance is you're
unkempt, you you know, cut your
hair, get a, you know, shave,
whatever that like over and over
and over and over.
So that as an adult, when that
monk calls, he shuts down, he
avoids, he can't even answer the
phone because it brings back all
those times that his parent, the
mother, criticized his
appearance and made him feel
less than.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
It's like this traumatic recall,
right?
It's always just pulling back,
and then you just avoid anything
that's gonna even bring up any
of that feeling again.
SPEAKER_02: So that that's a
that's one that I wanted to
highlight.
And it also stems uh it that
also kind of bleeds into
substance use disorders because
that's a great way to avoid
feelings, especially if they're
if we're dealing with, you know,
traumatizing memories.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01: And that can be
either avoiding the situation
totally and just retreating into
substance use or going to the
thing and engaging in substance
use, right?
Like just let me know.
I need a drink, I can't handle
it.
Right, let me without a drink.
Let me numb myself out in the in
the place, or let me numb myself
out and not even go.
Like those both things I think
happen.
One of the other ways I think
trauma shows up is with this
kind of like hypervigilance,
right?
This idea, like our our body per
like we're always scanning for
threat.
We're always looking, is this
safe?
Is this room safe?
You know, like we talk about the
nervous system constantly being
engaged at fight or flight, like
that is hypervigilance.
If I'm if I'm walking around
always on, always plugged in,
and like my alarm is constantly
like on, then you know, the car
alarm's going off as I drive
down the road.
That's like that's that
hypervigilance.
And I think that that can be a
real kind of you know experience
for for people who have trauma.
And I've I've seen that a lot.
Like there's just a general
nervousness constantly with no
off switch.
No, there's like no ability to
switch it off.
SPEAKER_02: And that and there's
a cost that we pay for being in
that sort of level of high
anxiety all the time.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: It looks like the
body actually shutting down,
which is another part of trauma.
There are physical symptoms of
unprocessed trauma.
Tension, chronic back pain is
one that you hear about a lot.
Stomach stuff.
Totally.
Oh, I'm so calm.
So many gastroenterologists they
don't know what's going on with
me, but it's like, oh yeah, it's
probably linked, it could be
linked to a traumatic episode
from your past.
Right.
Not being able to sleep,
insomnia.
SPEAKER_01: No, but we want to
find, we always want to find,
like, oh, there must be some
medical condition.
It's like, well, it's it's it's
considered medical, but it's a
mental health issue, right?
But it is, it's it's a lot, it's
so many people with stomach
issues related to trauma and
anxiety and just what they've
what they've been through.
And then I think the one that we
see a lot is repetitive
relationship patterns.
SPEAKER_02: Recreating the
dynamic that produced the
trauma.
SPEAKER_01: Totally.
Yeah, absolutely.
Because not and and and the
important distinction here, and
I talk to people a lot about
this, is it's not bad things, we
don't do them because they're
comfortable.
We do them because they're
familiar.
Because they're familiar.
And people often conflate the
the two things.
It's like, oh, I do it because
it's co- it's what I'm
comfortable with.
Nobody is comfortable with being
in a in a in an abusive
relationship ever.
That's just not but they're
familiar.
And and and they might twist or
misinterpret, you know, love or
attention or some of these other
things that are happening in
that moment.
But I think that's a really
important thing to understand is
that comfort and familiarity are
two very different things.
So let's look at maybe some of
the ways that we can, you know
what like genuine trauma work
requires.
SPEAKER_02: It's well, you
mentioned body-based stuff.
I think trauma work isn't just
about talking.
It's not just like, oh, let's
talk about the terrible thing
that happened to you.
Often when we're doing trauma
therapy, the person can talk
about it.
Right.
But there are things that
haven't been processed yet.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: And so I think, you
know, titration is an important
word here, which just really
means going slowly.
Like if we're titrating, we're
going slowly, we're approaching
whatever the trauma was in
little bite-sized pieces, baby
steps.
We don't the your system's been
flooded before, your nervous
system's been flooded before if
you've been traumatized.
So we don't want to flood it
again.
Yeah.
And a lot of that is for me ends
up being kind of like
body-based.
SPEAKER_01: You know, you're not
just gonna like tell somebody to
sit down and just like, hey,
let's crack this open and just
tell me about the what happened
to you.
SPEAKER_02: What did you go
through?
Sometimes uh trauma.
Give me all the details.
No, yeah, you're right.
But but maybe a client wants to
to talk about, you know, a
client who's gone through some
let's say assault.
They don't want to talk about
what happened to them
specifically, but they'll tell
they'll they'll want to talk
about like a David Cronenberg
movie, body horror movie.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
SPEAKER_02: And then it's the
then the work becomes, oh yeah,
let's let's engage at that
level.
Right.
And then maybe after a couple
sessions the client will feel
comfortable talking a little bit
more specifically about what
happened to them.
SPEAKER_01: There's a when I did
the ART training, when we we
talked about how memories were
formed, and we used to think
that memories were just like
you'd go to a library in your
brain and you take the book off
the shelf and you'd open it to a
page, and that was your memory.
And when you every time you
would recall something,
traumatic event, even if it
wasn't traumatic, but any
memory, but but really what we
were looking at trauma, that oh,
it's it's just I have this event
that happens.
So when I take this, I'm
remembering, I'm I'm reading
about the smells, the sounds,
the sights, like all of our
senses, like everything that
overwhelmed us at that time,
everything that felt awful.
That's not actually how memories
work.
And in what research has now
uncovered is that every time we
talk about a traumatic event,
every time we remember trauma or
any memory really, but you know,
here we're talking about like
these these things that have
happened.
It's your brain is recreating
the scenario, it's recreating
the experience in your mind.
Your brain's actually pulling
from different shelves to say,
here's that smell.
Let me pull that that sight back
in, let me pull that body
feeling back in.
And your brain recreates the
experience so that you can
recall the memory.
And so every time you talk about
it without actually working
through it, like in a in a
healthy way, like say with a
therapist or or just in a in a
process, right?
You you are in effect
re-traumatizing yourself each
time.
And so that's why we want to be
really careful and titrate, as
you're saying, like the the work
around trauma treatment, because
we we don't want to just
continuously like reflood
ourselves.
There is no reason to overflow
that bathtub again.
Right.
We can we can slowly, we can
take a small Dixie cup and just
keep like taking small little,
you know, eventually you'll work
through it.
But that's and in and that's
where some of these like EMDR
and ART and some other trauma
therapies are are really
wonderful because you you get to
have a different relationship
with that memory as you're
recreating it.
Right.
And if if people want to learn
more about ART and EMDR, I I
highly, highly recommend looking
into it or call us and ask, I'll
talk about it for forever.
But that's because it you're
you're you're recreating a
memory or recreating experience.
So every time you you don't lose
the memory of what happened, but
you do have a different
relationship and it has a
different effect on your body.
It doesn't, yeah, it doesn't
have to shut you down.
SPEAKER_02: Right.
There's also I think it's
important to point out that like
not every challenge we go
through needs trauma therapy.
Right.
A lot of this stuff shows, I
mean, a lot of the stuff is it
can be grief, you know, loss.
You know, Kat Hurley did such a
wonderful job of defining all
these different types of loss
that we don't necessarily, you
know, associate with loss or
grief.
And so, you know, some hard
things just require time.
They just require time, you
know, time and conversation.
SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't
have to be with a therapist,
that can just be time and
talking to somebody else who
went through something.
Yeah, a survivor.
Yeah, I think about support
groups, they're so jinx the the
any situation or any setting
where you don't feel alone and
you can talk about this, and
that's that's just it.
It's you know, not everything
needs like some intense kind of
like excavation.
Right.
I think that like we don't we
don't need to dig so deep all
the time.
No.
Sometimes it can be really more
hey, what are we doing right now
to make sure that this this
doesn't feel so awful when I
when I recall it?
SPEAKER_02: And sometimes that's
just being alongside somebody
who you trust and feel
comfortable with, as you said,
like a fishing trip or running
or you know that's where I think
12-step, you know, 12-step
groups and recovery groups and
smart recovery and any of the
other kind of like recovery
dharma.
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you think
about even even when I think
about you know religious
practice, yeah, Buddhist
tradition.
Yeah, it's not necessarily the
the the message.
It doesn't have to be like, oh,
you're hearing about, you know,
Buddha or or you know, Jesus or
you know, whatever it might be.
It's just you're you're in a
place congregating together and
and working towards a similar
goal, or just having a similar
understanding of of of life.
SPEAKER_02: No, it's why
concerts are similarly
therapeutic.
That's right.
You know, or even going to the
movies.
Not that everybody really does
that anymore.
No.
People just stream in their
homes.
But having a shared experience,
being around like-minded people,
yeah, is in I think inherently
therapeutic.
Thanks for listening to Lumen.
If today's conversation
resonated with you, we encourage
you to follow, review, and share
Lumen with anyone you think
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SPEAKER_01: We'll be back soon
with another conversation
designed to bring a little more
light to the human condition.
I'm Christopher Mooney, LCSW.
And I'm Kenyon Phillips, LMSW.
Until next time, take care of
yourselves and each other.
Lumen is for educational and
informational purposes only and
is not a substitute for therapy,
diagnosis, or treatment.
If you're experiencing a mental
health crisis, please contact
local emergency services or a
trusted mental health
professional.