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Kaatscast: the Catskills Podcast is a biweekly series featuring Catskills culture, history, sustainability, local interviews, literature, and the arts. Shows are hosted by Brett Barry and produced by Silver Hollow Audio, in the heart of the Catskills. Subscribe and experience what reviewers have called “delightfully informative” storytelling with “great production quality.” Voted “Best Regional Podcast” three years in a row. Episode archives, transcripts, and a robust search engine at kaatscast.com. Enjoy!
[00:00:00] Brett Barry: Hey, "Kaatscast" listeners, Brett Barry here with an extra edition this week, slipping in between two regular episodes. Before we get into today's conversation, a couple of things. If you haven't heard last week's show yet, go back and give it a listen. We sat down with Dany Davis, a fluvial geomorphologist—that's right—who's spent the last three decades studying Catskill streams, and the response has been really moving. One listener wrote in to say, "It was," and I'm going to bleep this, "so interesting, I want to scream!" Well, that's a first. A couple of listeners were so moved by Dany's story—they wrote heartfelt letters and asked me to forward them along. I did, and in a week we'll be back with a brand-new episode all about foraging in the Catskills. Now, today's episode, you may have caught a version of this on WJFF Radio Catskill, where "Kaatscast" leads its own life every Saturday at 11:00 AM, but with the public comment deadline coming up fast, June 1st, I wanted to make sure it reached the podcast feed too. I sat down with Jeff Senterman, executive director of the Catskill Center, to talk about a state report that could reshape how one of the most visited spots in the park—Kaaterskill Falls and the Kaaterskill Clove area—is managed going forward. We're talking potential visitor caps, timed entry, shuttle service, and more. The public comment period is still open through June 1st, so this is a timely one. Let's get into it. We're here today at the Catskill Visitor Center in Mount Tremper, New York, with Jeff Senterman, who's the executive director of the Catskill Center. Welcome to the show, Jeff.
[00:01:55] Jeff Senterman: Good morning, and thank you so much for having me.
[00:01:57] Brett Barry: Yeah, so today we're talking about something called the VUM, or Visitor Use Plan. It seems every time I interview you, there's some acronym involved. Last time, it was the CAG, and I believe that those two things are pretty closely related, so can you tell me a little bit about what the VUM is, why we're talking about it now, and how the CAG ties into it because I think that one led to the other in a way?
[00:02:25] Jeff Senterman: Absolutely, so the visitor use management framework, or VUM [that is the new acronym of the day]—that is a process, a framework that has been established by federal agencies that manage land, so like the National Park Service, the Bureau of Land Management, et cetera, and that is used to look at a piece of parkland and kind of understand what are the important values, what are the concerns on that property, and how can the natural resources, the infrastructure, and the people's experiences all be managed together to best protect natural resources but also provide the best experience for visitors, and so when I was on the Catskill Strategic Advisory Group, which was the CAG, we looked at a lot of different scenarios and ideas of how to better manage the Catskill Park, and you can imagine that as many parks as there are, there's probably as many ideas of how to manage those parks, but this visitor use management framework has been something that has been working for many years on federal recreational lands and so in the interest of moving forward and also using something that has already been tried and tested. The CAG group, in their final report, recommended to the state of New York that we find pilot projects both in the Adirondacks and in the Catskills and move forward with using that framework to see if we can make the management of that high-use area better, and so in this case, they decided to use the Kaaterskill Clove area, so basically Route 23A between Palenville and Haines Falls, along with Kaaterskill Falls itself, which is off North Lake Road and all of 23A through the Clove, and so what happened from there was the New York State DEC, the Department of Environmental Conservation, had a consultant come on and start working for them. This consultant had a lot of experience doing this visitor use management framework work on federal lands. They spent about a year and a half gathering data, and they put together this report, and that report is what has been released by the DEC now for public review and public comment.
[00:04:52] Brett Barry: So the CAG had lots of different elements in the Catskills, right? It wasn't just the Kaaterskill Clove, but that was one element that was pulled out for the VUM?
[00:05:02] Jeff Senterman: Yes, so the CAG report and the work of the CAG, what it really pointed out, was that the Catskills are seeing ever-increasing visitorship and use in sometimes very specific areas but also kind of on a large scale across the park, and I think everybody knows that our two biggest hotspots are Kaaterskill Falls, the Kaaterskill Clove area, along with Peekamoose Blue Hole.
[00:05:25] Brett Barry: So I was going to ask you about Peekamoose Blue Hole. How come that didn't make it into this new report?
[00:05:30] Jeff Senterman: So in the interest of being a pilot project to have this consultant work on the VUM framework, we had suggested Kaaterskill Clove be used as a test case, and then also, sort of in the real world, would this type of framework work in the Catskill Park with the mix of forest preserve, with the mix of nonprofit lands, with the mix of communities being right in with the forest preserve? It's a different scenario than, say, a national park, where the federal government owns all that land. Here in the Catskills, New York State only owns portions of the land within the Catskill Park, and so whatever management strategy they use would have to be a collaborative one, and that's where this framework comes in really handy, pulling together a lot of different moving parts to establish ideas and goals that everybody can work together to better manage that property.
[00:06:24] Brett Barry: So, at this point, how binding is all of this? And then we'll get into kind of the nitty-gritty of what it recommends.
[00:06:31] Jeff Senterman: The first thing I want to emphasize is that even when the comment period closes on this report, nothing is set in stone. This is an advisory report prepared by consultants that was given to the DEC at its conclusion. The report itself is not policy. It's not a regulatory document that will, upon the closure of the public comment period, enact itself. This is only an advisory document that the department is using to understand the issues at Kaaterskill Falls and Kaaterskill Clove. The process from here, you know, the public has this opportunity. Groups like the Catskill Center have this opportunity. We're all going to be giving the DEC lots of comments and sometimes celebrating moving forward towards this framework, but in other places, we're not agreeing that timed entry systems or permit systems would be the appropriate management mechanism here, so what I expect is the DEC will gather a lot of feedback. They will have a better idea of what strategies could work and probably wouldn't work, and then to really complete this process, what this framework, what this report that we were given lacks is a look at the natural resources and also the infrastructure, so DEC kind of has to go back to their planning department and develop what they call a unit management plan, which is the document that actually guides management on each piece of state land. They have to take that feedback and the report that they just completed on the VUM at Kaaterskill Clove. They have to look at the natural resource inventory, and they have to look at the infrastructure within that unit to see. Is it appropriate, or can it be improved? Tie that all together, and then they will put out a draft unit management plan amendment to the Kaaterskill Wild Forest, which would be the regulatory document that would allow for the implementation of really anything that's in the current report or anything that is thought of in that future process.
[00:08:37] Brett Barry: The consultants that were hired were based in Montana, and you mentioned that this would be managing an area in the Catskills similar to areas that are managed on federal property, which I guess makes sense because this group is out west, and a lot of federal land's out there. Is this the first time that something like that is happening where an area in the Catskill Park would be managed more in line with the way that federal parklands are managed?
[00:09:03] Jeff Senterman: We wouldn't be the first state to utilize the VUM framework for their state recreation lands, but we would be the first East Coast state to try that, and it's also important to note that at national parks like Acadia National Park, this framework is already being used, and so you can kind of see, you know, if you're visiting Acadia in Maine, you can see how this type of framework assists in the management of that park, which is a very busy park.
[00:09:33] Brett Barry: How did we get here? So, you know, I've been visiting Kaaterskill Clove since I was a kid, and it was always a popular spot, but never to this degree. So how did we get here, and what are we trying to alleviate?
[00:09:46] Jeff Senterman: I think that Kaaterskill Falls itself goes through waves of interest and disinterest because I can remember in the late nineties, being an assistant forest ranger, that was my territory, and I spent an awful lot of time letting folks know they couldn't camp somewhere, that they couldn't be dangling their legs off the top of Kaaterskill Falls, all kinds of stuff, so, to me, there was a different kind of heavy use than we see today. I had the opportunity to actually be at Kaaterskill a few days ago, and I do think that even in this era of increasing use, we've seen improvements be made to that area, which, on one hand, facilitates more folks coming to see Kaaterskill Falls but, on the other hand, moves those people quickly and safely through Kaaterskill Falls, which is something that didn't exist before all of those improvements, and I think that, you know, really looking at this VUM process, one thing that we thought was lacking in the current report and that we'll be commenting on is that there wasn't a recognition of sort of the history that led us to this point in time where Kaaterskill is what it is and that we also sort of set the conditions and the historical idea of place in that Kaaterskill Falls has been a tourist attraction since Thomas Cole, probably even before Thomas Cole was painting it, but definitely, you know, since the mid-1800s, it has been a destination, and we're never going to erase it from the internet or stop folks from coming to see it, and it's also just a great place for folks to start to experience what the Catskill Park is. It's a low-difficulty experience. It's an opportunity for us to teach them what the Catskill Park is and how to go out and respectfully recreate in the rest of the park. It's a chance for us to introduce the whole Catskills to these folks and get them here to the Catskills Visitor Center so they can get more information. We do have seasonal stewards that work there, and quite often one of the most asked questions is just like, "Where am I and what else can I do now that I've seen this waterfall?" So that gives us the chance to let them know that there's a whole other park and a whole other set of communities to visit and enjoy.
[00:12:18] Brett Barry: And as many people as were visiting in the 1800s, they were coming up by train, and a lot of the points mentioned in this report have to do with traffic, automobile traffic, overcrowding of the parking lots, and the danger of cars and pedestrians sharing very narrow stretches of Route 23A, so what kind of recommendations are being made in this report pertaining to that automobile traffic and limitations on that?
[00:12:49] Jeff Senterman: So I think this is a tale of two problems. You know, the problem that I think most of the public who's just sort of passing through the Hunter to Palenville area through Kaaterskill Clove on 23A is increased pedestrian traffic and folks trying to park along 23A in the Clove with the goal of reaching the swimming holes that are located along 23A. I was disappointed in that this report really didn't dive into that challenge and didn't come up with recommendations to improve that situation on 23A because I, you know, as someone who lives in Tannersville and travels that road frequently down into the valley [summertime], 9 times out of 10 in my drives, I'm having a challenge of navigating around cars or navigating around people, and you can imagine that cars and people are not the best combination. Knock on wood that there's never been a serious pedestrian-vehicle accident on 23A, but that doesn't mean that there can't be, and that... it doesn't mean that we can't work towards solutions. So one comment we will be making is that we need to look a lot harder on how to keep Kaaterskill Clove accessible but also make sure that this public safety is maintained.
[00:14:12] Brett Barry: So not much in the report about what to do about the issues on 23A, but there are quite a few suggestions and recommendations for the existing parking lots, including roundabouts and actually timed admittance and a limit on the number of cars per hour that hit that parking lot. The idea is to cap daily visitation at 1,000 visitors per day. Do you know how many visitors [Kaaterskill Clove] gets on a peak summer day now?
[00:14:38] Jeff Senterman: On a peak day, you know, that number can triple or quadruple. We have our Catskill steward stationed there, so they're getting accurate counts daily throughout the summer months, so it is a busy spot, and I think that on average, especially on weekends, you're seeing more than 1,000 people per day visit—I also think it's important to understand that the vast majority of those folks visiting are having a very short experience. They're parking. They're going to the observation platform and then getting back to their car and moving out so you're not looking at folks. 1,000 folks per day are not having day-long hikes around Kaaterskill Falls.
[00:15:21] Brett Barry: Advanced tickets are a possibility.
[00:15:25] Jeff Senterman: What I would say is that all of these recommendations are recommendations that the Catskill Center has real concerns about. We don't believe that public access to our public lands should be closed off, kind of as the first option, and what we think that this report unfortunately does is kind of skip over a lot of recommendations and work that has been done over the years that suggested ways to improve the situation at Kaaterskill Falls, and so from my perspective, whether it's capping visitation at 1,000 visitors a day or requiring advanced reservations, those should be the tools of last resort, and the department has simply not invested enough in staffing and improving infrastructure and working collaboratively with the town of Hunter and others in that area to try to create the best-functioning system that meets the needs of the area versus simply saying, "It's too busy. We need permits."
[00:16:35] Brett Barry: One more item that they were recommending is to evaluate the feasibility of a shuttle service. There has been a shuttle service. It's been a private one, right, and just in this week's Overlook, Ryan Chadwick, who runs that shuttle service, said that rising insurance costs and lack of support from DEC were factors that have now closed the shuttle service down after four years. Do you have anything to say about that shuttle service and why it wasn't supported or how it may have been supported better? It's now closing down. Was it effective? How would a different shuttle service solve problems that this one may not have?
[00:17:14] Jeff Senterman: Big question.
[00:17:14] Brett Barry: Yeah.
[00:17:16] Jeff Senterman: I think the simple answer is that a shuttle service is necessary to the future functioning of the Kaaterskill Clove area, whether that is managing people and traffic on 23A itself through the Clove [whether it is moving people from parking lots up top like the Laurel House or Scutt Road] and also interacting with the folks in the campground and on Main Street in Tannersville and Main Street in Palenville, so we have always believed and we have recommended prior to the CAG, in the CAG and throughout this VUM process that led to this report, that shuttle service is key. We all understood that private shuttle service in the Clove would be a challenge, and I think that the hard work that Ryan did to try to do that shows that it's probably not possible for a singularly private operation to be successful in that, and it speaks to the need for investment and support either by the state or, you know, some sort of support to do that.
[00:18:21] Brett Barry: What do you think a new shuttle service might expand on, or how could it be better? I'm just trying to figure out what that disconnect is between... there was one. They're recommending one.
[00:18:31] Jeff Senterman: I think the takeaway is that if you think that the supply and demand are there to support a private business shuttle, you're incorrect, and so Ryan simply couldn't come up with a business plan that made money in the long run and supported that project without it being, sort of—I don't have a better term—like a charity project. I do think that he's right and that the state and partners could have done more to embrace that shuttle. I think that him doing the shuttle has shown that it is an idea that can work. We've established shuttle stops that we know work and don't work, so we've captured a lot of information. I think, you know, the best-case scenario from here is taking that and understanding that maybe there is a private partner that could be worked with for shuttle service, but that shuttle service will need to be supplemented by public funds in order to ensure that it runs, you know, on whatever time you're saying that it's going to run and it's going to go to the places that you're going to go and that it's just there, like when you go to a national park and there's the shuttle service in those parks. For something to be functional, it can't simply be a private exercise. It has to be a public-private partnership.
[00:19:51] Brett Barry: So this report, again, the Kaaterskill Clove Project Area Visitor Use Management Pilot Project Report [final recommendations report, which was issued recently in February of 2025], is going to close its, I guess, public feedback period soon. Do you know when that is?
[00:20:09] Jeff Senterman: June 1st will be the last day for public comment.
[00:20:12] Brett Barry: How do people respond to this if they want to make a public comment?
[00:20:15] Jeff Senterman: So there is an online process. If you—I think probably the easiest way given DEC's website is simply Google "KAATERSKILL FALLS VISITOR USE MANAGEMENT" or "VUM." That will take you to the New York State DEC page for this project. There'll be a copy of the report and information on how to comment, and we urge everyone to read the report to make their comments. Our intent is to get our comments in by about mid-May, and we will make them public so other folks can see them. This is the way that we better manage and sort of help the state dream big in how we can take care of this park, and we want them to know what we think works [and we want them to know what we think won't work].
[00:21:02] Brett Barry: The report is about 100-plus pages, and we've just scratched a little bit of it. I think some of the most important parts, so it was a good scratch, but having read it thoroughly, I'm sure. What changes do you hope will be made before it's formalized in some way?
[00:21:19] Jeff Senterman: First, I want to acknowledge what a big deal this report is, and I want to celebrate that the department took the recommendation from the CAG and has done this. We all knew that the report would say things that we liked and would say things that we didn't like. What I really want to see from this report moving forward is that we look strategically. We look completely at the problem of Kaaterskill Falls and Kaaterskill Clove, and I think that that's what this starts to scratch the surface of. There are other pieces that still need to come together, but from this report, what I hope is that we do get that unit management plan amendment in the not-too-distant future because at Kaaterskill Falls and the Clove, the problem is growing. It's not shrinking, so we need to do work, and we don't need a report on a shelf. We need actions on the ground, but this report forms, you know, a three-legged stool: there is the people experience of the forest preserve, there's the natural resource experience of the forest preserve, and there's the infrastructure of the forest preserve to get folks around, and so I think that in the perfect case, a unit management plan amendment that comes out acknowledging those three aspects that takes a hard look and makes recommendations that make sense that are implementable and that can be maintained over the long term, and if that means a series of actions that we try to see if they work, that's great, but all the Catskill Center is saying, sort of, about the most drastic items like a timed entry system or like permits [there's a whole lot of information we need to gather]. There's a whole lot of options we need to try because limiting the public access to the forest preserve is the worst outcome possible, and so we want to ensure that we protect that forest preserve, but we want to ensure that all New Yorkers and really anyone can enjoy what is a national, if not international, treasure that is the forest preserve here in the Catskills.
[00:23:24] Brett Barry: And however this shapes up, the Catskill Center will be there and a part of this, and I know that there's a trail steward or ambassador program where you have people on the ground to help newcomers understand how to interact with an area like that, right?
[00:23:38] Jeff Senterman: Absolutely, so at, you know, the Catskill Center, we are the oldest organization that has been standing up for the Catskills. A big part of my job is being in Albany and working with our agency partners in order to bring awareness and resources and attention to the Catskills so we will stay on top of this issue, and you're right that, you know, many of our programs [THE CATSKILL STEWARDS PROGRAM] here at the Catskills Visitor Center—our goal is to interact and intersect with visitors to the park and give them a sense of place and give them the opportunity to learn what makes the Catskill Park and the Catskill Forest Preserve so special and why we're here working to protect it and educate others about it.
[00:24:18] Brett Barry: Great, and to learn more, people can go to...
[00:24:21] Jeff Senterman: catskillcenter.org.
[00:24:23] Brett Barry: That's Jeff Senterman of the Catskill Center. Thanks for joining me.
[00:24:26] Jeff Senterman: Thank you so much for having me.
[00:24:27] Brett Barry: I'm Brett Barry, and this has been "Kaatscast." Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next week.