327. The Secret to Building Credibility and Referrals Like a Badass with Alison Fragale

This episode is for anyone who has ever hesitated to talk about their accomplishments because they don't want to come across as "too much."

Today we welcome Alison Fragale, organizational psychologist, professor, and author of Likable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve, to challenge and unlearn the outdated beliefs that keep us quiet, small, and overworked.

Alison uses behavioral science and practical strategies to show you how to be both authentic AND strategic. These two concepts are not mutually exclusive - they're actually powerful allies in your career. 

In this episode, you'll learn about:

• The core formula for introducing your business that highlights your capabilities and proves you care (solving a problem).
• Why "hiding your successes" to appear humble actually kills connection and makes people question your relationship with them.
• How to use experimentation to practice assertiveness without being terrified (and the danger of socialized "good girl" beliefs).
• The skill of making people curious about you and the powerful difference between a monologue and a polite discourse.
• Why reciprocity rules relationships and how to use it to get people to naturally talk you up.
• Alison's framework for rewriting your story when you're in a "messy middle" or career transition.
• Why other promoters can brag on you in ways you can't brag on yourself, and how to motivate them to pick up the microphone.
• The simple, two-minute investments you can make daily to build your network (like providing easy, valuable help).
• The vital message: Authentic and strategic are not opposites.

Episode Timestamps:

• 00:02:00 – Alison's work: Evolving to help women use behavioral science for confidence.
• 00:04:00 – The struggle of self-introduction: How to talk about accomplishments without sounding boastful.
• 00:07:00 – The common mistake: Hiding successes and why it damages relationships.
• 00:11:00 – Using experimentation to lean into assertiveness.
• 00:16:00 – Mastering the art of making people curious about you.
• 00:21:40 – Advice for rewriting your story during a "messy middle" career transition.
• 00:29:30 – The power of other promoters and the three ways to get them talking about you.
• 00:36:00 – Simple ways to add value to your network within a five-minute bandwidth.
• 00:48:20 – The final takeaway: Why "authentic and strategic" is your new mantra.

About Alison Fragale: 

• Website: https://alisonfragale.com/ 
• Book: Likable Badass: How Women Get the Success They Deserve Newsletter: The Upper Hand: Behavioral Science to Help Women Excel: https://alisonfragale.com/book/
• In-Person Event: Both Alison and Megan are speaking at the Women Lead NC event on November 13th in Raleigh, North Carolina. Grab your ticket here: https://ncchamber.com/event/women-lead-nc-raleigh/

For Real on Social Media: 

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/forrealwithmegan/ 
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ForRealPodcast

Hosted by Megan Gillikin, For Real is presented by The Planner's Vault, and is produced by Walk West.

Creators and Guests

Host

Megan Gillikin

Wedding Industry Coach + Founder of The Planner's Vault

Producer

Jason Gillikin

CEO and Executive Producer at Earfluence

What is For Real: Life, Leadership, & Unlearning?

For Real is a top 1% podcast for high-achievers who look successful on paper but feel like they’re one group text away from burning it all down. Hosted by Megan Gillikin - serial entrepreneur, business coach, keynote speaker, and recovering people pleaser - this show explores burnout, boundaries, identity shifts, and the brave act of unlearning who you thought you had to be.

With unfiltered conversations, “I thought it was just me” moments, and just enough humor to keep it from feeling like group therapy, For Real is your permission slip to evolve.

Formerly Weddings for Real - and glow-ups look good on us.

Megan Gillikin: [00:00:00] Hey, friend. Welcome back to For Real, the podcast about life, leadership, and unlearning all the old stuff that keeps us stuck. You're listening to episode 327, and I'm your host, Megan Gilligan. I am so glad that you are here, whether you've been tuning in for a while now, or you're new to the show now, for my listeners that have been with me for a while now, if this show has been helping you unlearn what's holding you back or step into a more authentic version of yourself.
Can I ask you to do me a quick favor? Please take a moment to either follow the show or leave a short review. It helps more people find these episodes, and it reminds me that what we're creating here really matters. Now, today's episode is for anyone who's ever hesitated to talk about their own accomplishments, because you don't wanna come across as quote unquote.
Too much. Have you ever had one of those moments where you wanna share what you do, you wanna ask for help, or you wanna make a connection at a [00:01:00] networking event? But there's that little voice that kicks in reminding you that you need to stay humble, polite, likable, and not too boastful. Well, we're gonna work on rewriting that script, and today's guest is going to challenge you to rethink and unlearn some potentially outdated beliefs you've been carrying.
With that, let's get to today's show
you're listening to for Real. The podcast where we get honest about life, leadership and unlearning all the outdated beliefs that are holding you back. I'm your host, Megan Gilligan. I'm a serial entrepreneur, speaker, business coach, recovering people pleaser, and your unfiltered guide through the messy middle of growth, the part that nobody posts about on social media.
Inside each episode, we dive into the habits, mindset shifts and hard earn lessons that help you build a life and a career you actually [00:02:00] want while letting go of everything that no longer serves you around here, we ditch perfection. We talk boundaries, burnout. Breakthroughs and we call out the BS. That keeps you playing small.
So if you're craving deeper conversations, much needed, relatability and full permission to evolve into your next level, you're in the right place. My guest today is Alison Regale. She's an organizational psychologist, a keynote speaker, a professor, and an author of an incredible book called Likable Badass, how Women Get the Success They Deserve.
Now, I listened to the audio version of this book last year, and I loved it. I read it so quickly. It's smart, digestible, and full of practical strategies that'll stick with you long after you finish listening or reading. So with that, let's dive in. Allison kicks us off by explaining how her work evolved to help women use behavioral science to lead, connect, and communicate with confidence.
Alison Fragale: A lot of the work [00:03:00] I do now is for women, although that was not originally how I started out, but kind of evolved that way, and the book is an outgrowth of that. And so I do a lot of work right now speaking to writing to women, helping them use behavioral science and understand what that means for them so that they can.
Take that science and turn it into, again, strategies and behaviors that allow them to show up authentically, efficiently, which is really important, um, to be able to get all the great outcomes they deserve.
Megan Gillikin: Yeah. Yeah. And I think we need so much more of the support in that arena. I think about the journey of entrepreneurship or just the journey of a career, and I think in your twenties, maybe your early thirties, you're, you're still figuring out who you are.
You're stepping into these positions, and as you continue to grow and evolve, sometimes you outgrow. Who you were showing up as you know in the beginning, but you're not quite sure who you intend [00:04:00] to really step into in the future. So I think the book was something that really helped me with that. And I'd love to start with entrepreneurs and talking about when it comes to speaking about your business and talking about your accomplishments and introducing yourself at networking events.
I often hear from women that. They struggle with the idea of figuring out what's important to say, what doesn't sound too boastful, what's going to be relatable? How do you take those ingredients and come up with the best recipe for introducing yourself as a business owner?
Alison Fragale: Absolutely, and I think about this a lot because being an author is essentially being an entrepreneur.
You're creating a product and you have to bring it to the world. And the reality is, if you can't talk about your product and why it's great and why it can help people, no one's gonna know about it. One of the most impactful things was a quote, I read a book that was called Your First 1000 Copies, and it's specifically written for [00:05:00] authors about marketing books, but it has a general message I think everyone can, can benefit from.
Um, but the, one of the, one of the quotes in the beginning, it really struck with me, which is obscurity is hard to monetize. Like if no one knows who you are or what you do or what the business is, it is really hard to make a living with that. So it's a struggle. But the two pieces that I focus on in the book are really the same two pieces I would recommend to an entrepreneur, which is people need to understand your capabilities, what you can do, what results you can deliver, and they also need to understand that you care.
What are the benefits to other people. So I think one of the easiest ways to get comfortable talking about yourself is to talk about the thing you do. Then to talk about how that is can be in service to other people or what you love about being in service to other people. It's not just, here's my business, it can be a for-profit business, right?
Here's my business and I really love making money. There's, that's nothing wrong with that, and that could be accurate, but can's my business, and here's the impact that we're having and this [00:06:00] is why I was really excited to do this. This is the problem that we're solving. Every time we start talking about being problem solvers, that's showing that we care because we're trying to address a need.
So when we start to talk about ourselves in that way, it's not only more effective, but for most people it feels a lot more uncomfortable, like I am solving a problem. I would love to tell you about the problem I'm solving that feels very different than bragging on myself, but it has the same effect, which is as you get people into that conversation.
You say, we have this great solution that can really meet a need. You're hitting both of those things at the same time. I really care about helping other people and I have capabilities and and skills and can drive results.
Megan Gillikin: Yeah, I love that. It made me think of. This formula that I've heard before that's like, I help blink so that they can blink and you know, I'm passionate about this because X like something along those lines that seems like it speaks to this is a problem that I solve, this is why I do it, and here's the result that someone can can from it.
Alison Fragale: Exactly. And those types of [00:07:00] formulas, they help you practice and they help make it more. Habitual to be able to have a response so that you're not having to recreate every single time someone asks you. 'cause you know they're gonna ask you and you know, you have to have something to say about it.
Megan Gillikin: Yeah. So I'm sure in many of the conversations that you have with leaders at all different levels, you pick up on these subtle ways that people unintentionally.
Diminish their story and their background. What's one of the ways that stands out to you that maybe someone listening to this can be like, oh man, I didn't even realize I do that. But that is absolutely, you know, something that I struggle with.
Alison Fragale: Yeah, and one of the common ones is we call it hiding our successes.
Something good happens to us. We just keep quiet about it. That's all we do. We just don't tell people because we don't, to your first question, like we don't have the words to figure out how to tell you and not make it sound braggy or self-indulgent or anything. So I'm just not gonna say anything. And [00:08:00] when we do that, what is our mentality?
Our mentality is, I am trying to show you that I'm a humble, nice, caring person. I'm actually trying to show up in a way that's going to reward me. It's gonna get you to think I'm nice and warm and likable. I have a strategy in my head by, by keeping quiet. And the problem with that strategy is it makes total sense, except it's not what human beings actually do.
So what happens is when when people have something that they could share and they choose not to, eventually those things ultimately get known. 'cause we live in a very efficient grapevine these days. And what happens is when someone realizes, let's say Megan, you had something you could say that was positive and you didn't tell me.
When I hear later from someone else, I don't think that Megan is so modest for not telling me that no one thinks that people think one of two things either, huh? She didn't tell me. Maybe we're not that close. Like maybe I'm not in her circle, so then I feel less close to you and less connected. Or the other one, which is even worse, is.[00:09:00]
Oh my God. Did she think that I'm so like petty and jealous and envious that I'm incapable of being happy? Did she not tell me because she thought I was gonna react poorly? Like, what must she think of me? Or does she think I'm just, you know, I'm so pathetic. I am. I would clearly be so envious because she's so much better than I, so.
And those are the things that go through people's heads, neither of which is favorable to us. So we, we hold back by talking about ourselves because we think it's building this warmth and this connection, and in fact, actually doing the opposite. It's killing it. So I always say like, if you have something to share, share it and tell people.
And people generally like to celebrate other people. People like good news, they like happy things, you know, you're not their direct competition. Whatever good thing happened to you is not any bearing on what's happening to them. Sharing that news is one a lot better for telling your story so people know how successful and capable you are.
But it also is relationship building. I think that's something that we don't really understand. We think we [00:10:00] share the success. We're driving a wedge in the relationship, but in fact, no. Like sharing the good news. It's a positive experience. It's building the relationship.
Megan Gillikin: Yeah. Uh, I was jotting down some notes as you were talking because what came up for me is.
Some of these lessons that I think we have to unlearn in midlife and beyond, where I know I was raised in a way that it was like, you know, be polite and be a good listener and don't be too boastful, right? So we have all of these, um, good girl in quotation mark lessons that we are taught, uh, when we're young.
And then I think, you know, I'm curious Alison. Where does it play into some of those, like maybe younger, formative, like, mean girl experiences that I personally remember, right? Like you're, you're growing up, you're, you're in these friend groups and like you're starting to realize like it's very easy to feel ostracized or outside the group for the littlest things.
So you [00:11:00] start to like stay within this box of what you think is acceptable. And then you, as you said, like you reach a point where you realize like. I am the one keeping myself small by doing this, and it's a little bit scary to step out of that comfort zone.
Alison Fragale: Yeah, I, of course it is. And yeah, we, we are all products of our habits and the things that we have practiced.
And sometimes those, those things that we practice are socialized and enforced on us. Sometimes it's our own theories that we have. Like we choose these things because we think they're gonna get us good results. And at one point in life, maybe they do, or maybe we now they never did and we just have never.
Try anything different. But I think the idea here is that if we are in patterns that we don't think serve us, then I am a huge proponent of experimentation, which is you just try one thing and change it and see what happens and you, you experiment in situations that are not terrifying. They push you a little bit outside your comfort zone, but not so much.
And I think that's true for a lot of [00:12:00] adults that I speak with who are trying to do something different. Like I'm trying to, as an entrepreneur, present my ideas and myself. In a more compelling, promoting way. That's something I need to practice. Okay, fine. Where are we gonna practice that in ways that force you to do it and get you a little bit uncomfortable, but don't terrify you?
So maybe it's, I go to a networking event where I'm not really very connected to anybody that's there. So I can practice these things, but if I end up being kind of awkward or weird or hating it, I haven't really, you know, done anything. I haven't like lost an investor or a big client. I can, I can do that.
So I think that's really important for people is to take whatever patterns you've developed at this point in your life and say, if I don't think they're serving me, and that's my choice to make, if I don't think they're serving me, I'm gonna practice a new set of patterns. And for many people, that means leaning into, particularly for women, leaning into the idea of assertiveness and talking about oneself and showing showcasing one's capabilities more so.[00:13:00]
Then the warmth piece, which is the other piece, you know, being kind to others and being helpful and giving, that's also really, really important. So when we talk about being nice or being likable as weaknesses, they absolutely are not. I mean, the science says we do liking and, and, and kind of, these are tremendous sources of influence.
Uh, but for many people it's the practicing. I need to assert myself a little bit more and we get better when we practice.
Megan Gillikin: Yeah, you're right. Some of those are self. Self-led beliefs, right? Like these are the stories that we tell ourselves. And, and I reflect on my own career. My background is in the wedding and event industry, and I think about the number of networking events that I've attended where you find yourself in conversation with someone that you know isn't asking questions, isn't engaging, isn't sharing, you know, within the group.
It's just this, like, I did this, I did that, and it, it feels, it gives you the ick. And so then I go home. I turn on that inner critic, that over analyzer [00:14:00] side, right? And I'm like, do I do that? Am I talking too much about myself? And I think so many women struggle with that as well. Is that what you hear on, you know, the stages that you're speaking in and the people that you talk to after.
Alison Fragale: Absolutely. I mean, and everyone knows somebody and I in the book write about an experience I had in as a young professional when I was working in consulting before I became an academic. Everyone's had wor seen just like an over the top self promoter. That's really a turnoff. And, and for a lot of people they think, I don't wanna be that person.
So the conclusion I draw is I'm not gonna talk about myself and not recognizing that. A couple things. One is I just was actually experienced this this week where I met a woman I did not know. She was talking about her business and it wasn't the things she was saying were over the top. She just went on too long about it in the course of natural conversation, like you should have given me the 32nd pitch and you gave me the four and a half minute pitch as I'm just like passing by you with my coffee.
And I'm like, I didn't need [00:15:00] all of that. But at the same time, here's what I will say, we overestimate like how much people think about us. So even if sometimes think people think that's a little much. You've also gotten your story out there and people then realize like you are doing a lot, and that idea of someone being a little much, it fades pretty quickly.
So we often are like really, really worried about that. So I'm not saying you should try to model yourself and be that person, but I do think that a lot of times what ends up happening is the reason those people are rewarded is because they've done a good job getting their story out there and people know that they're doing things.
And that idea of like you're doing things, but like. Your sense of like when to stop talking about yourself isn't that good? But that's not the worst crime in the world. So I, I think it often works, but the other thing I would say to people is there's, that's only the only two choices. Like be the person who runs on for four and a half minutes or say nothing.
There's a huge spectrum in between, and what I tell people is stories like don't come out most of the time [00:16:00] in monologues, like long bits where we talk about ourselves. They're just little moments that you can drop or little bits of conversation. And what I would tell people is as you're practicing that, you know, talking about yourself is practice making other people curious about you so that they are asking you questions.
Because when people are asking you questions and you are answering them, then you are engaging in polite discourse. If I just randomly walked up to someone on the street and I said, oh, I have a PhD from Stanford. That's kind of a weird thing to say, like, I don't know why you told me that, but if someone says to you, where did you go to school?
And I say, oh, I went to Stanford. Oh, what did you do there? I got my PhD. I've now put that information out there, but it's like you asked me. And so it have a very different tone. So what I would say is one of the skills we should practice is making people. Curious enough to actually wanna be in conversations with us.
And that normally starts with just saying a little thing. So if we think about these kind of networking events, like [00:17:00] the, what you talk about, listening to someone drone on, you know, there's a lot of times where people say, what's up? What's new? How's it going? How are you? And we're like, oh, I'm good. I'm fine, I'm busy.
But that person, whether they care or not, at the, at the time. Has given you an opportunity to make them a little bit curious about you. And if you say, I'm fine, I'm good, or I'm busy, nobody gets curious. They're like, oh, okay, so I'm good. And they just shuffle onto them. Everyone's busy. Yeah. Great. So, but like saying things like, um, like a way to start the idea of talking about yourself.
I was, I give, I tell this a story. I, in the fall of last year, I had an event in Chicago, invited a bunch of people I know and, uh, a guy came that I invited, I really liked, but I only met him in person once or twice. And when he arrived I just kind of thoughtlessly said, oh hey, thanks for coming. How was your day?
I didn't really care about the answer. It was just a glorified hello. But he just stopped and he goes, Allison, I had the best day today. And just like that, he made me really curious. So then I did what everybody would do. He wanted to know [00:18:00] like, why'd you have such a good day? He told me a story about how he basically had landed a new client that he had met on LinkedIn and was meeting in person for the first time.
So that was cool. Right. I learned that the guy was pretty successful at in wealth management and he basically was able to tell me a story about how he landed a client and then he also went on to say that he was really grateful because this client had built a lot of wealth through whatever it is he had done.
And now that he had built his wealth, what he really wanted to do with his money and the rest of his life was really make a big impact and change the world. And so my friend said, I'm just so grateful because if I can help him maximize his wealth, I am helping him maximize his impact on the world. And isn't that so cool?
And it was a beautiful, nice moment where he got, I learned a lot about him. I learned that he was, again, successful at what he did, and I learned that. He cared about more than himself. He cared about, you know, the impact he was making on the world, but it came out very naturally and it didn't feel weird in the way that you've experienced the times that I have.
Because what happened was I was asking him and I was like, the follow up [00:19:00] question and then what and what does this guy do? And et cetera. So I think that's one of the things that we should practice and master more is mastering the art of making people curious about us. Have a little something to say that gets people to wanna know more about you, and then you naturally get to.
Like talk about small bits of your life, not in a monologue form, but just in response to those questions. And that's often how we learn about people.
Megan Gillikin: Yes. I wrote down three things that were takeaways for me from that. One is, yeah, practice. Like thinking about that as you're going into boardrooms, as you're going into, you know, new client meetings, as you're going into networking events like.
What could you respond with outside of, I'm fine, I'm busy, or it's been crazy. Like what is something that is going on in your life or something that you're excited about or a recent change or transition? Um, I also pulled, you know, when you said you had someone speak to you for four and a half minutes?
Absolutely. I've had that too. And it's that like feeling of like, oh my gosh, this is, this is, this is going on too [00:20:00] long. It was interesting and now it's expired. And so keeping it short and having that like. 30 seconds to a minute. And then the final piece that was pulled for me, and this is something that I teach my three daughters all the time, is make sure that you are asking questions like you are asking back when I drop my girls off at summer camp.
The thing I say to them as they're walking out the door is, what's the best way to make new friends? And they're like, ask questions. And they say it because I've said it so many times, but it's like that's the way to get to know people and get to share about you as well. It's that natural back and forth.
Alison Fragale: Absolutely. And that's, so that's another thing that we can start to think about as we go into these situations where we have to promote ourselves, like as an entrepreneur in a situation where we're new is. Reciprocity rules, relationships. If, if let's say you ask someone a question, there's a very high likelihood, then they will turn around at the end and ask you the same question, which is why you should never ask anyone a question you don't wanna answer yourself and why.
It's a really good idea to [00:21:00] ask people questions you would like to answer yourself. So like, what was the best part of your day today? For example, could be something better than, hi. Hi, how are you? And that's a specific question that would prompt the person to answer. And then they might no guarantee, but they're likely to say, what was the best part of your day?
Then you're able to say something. So that's another way that we can approach it, is by having a different question that we ask people that gets them to talk about themselves in a different way, and then likely gets 'em to reciprocate so that then we get chance to talk about ourselves in that way.
Megan Gillikin: I love that reciprocity rules, relationships, and then another aha is, yeah, don't ask a question that you don't want to answer yourself.
Yes. Um, okay. I want to transition because as. I'm having conversations with women in different corporate roles in entrepreneurship. I'm feeling that many of them are in this place of shifting into a different role, a different career. You know, they're taking a break. They're figuring out what's [00:22:00] next for them.
So what might you advise to someone that is in, maybe we'll call it like. A messy middle, like a transition place, right? Like they, maybe they are pivoting in their career and, um, they're trying to figure out how to rewrite their story, but they don't know what the chapters ahead are yet. Any, any advice there?
Alison Fragale: Couple, two things. One is to spend some time thinking about what the future vision is. So for example, I, I talk about this in, or I write about this in, in the book, about the importance of going into our futures and what I call starting with the end to say, let's take a forward point in the, in the book I take, imagine your retirement from paid work, so you're gonna retire from paid work and people are gonna throw you a party and people are gonna give speeches at the party.
In those speeches, people can't say you can't do everything and be everything. So if people could always say [00:23:00] three things about the most important accomplishments you made over the course of your career, what would they say? And if they could say, if they could drop three adjectives to describe your, you know, your personality and your characteristics of what you embody, what would those three be?
And to identify those now. Then to work backward. So sometimes you might have a messy middle, but you actually might know what the long-term end is, right? And I'm not exactly sure how I get from here to there, but I am sure, or I need to be sure what I'm going for. There is nobody I know in the world that works harder than women.
What happens is you wake up every day and you are just desperate to get through your day to do all the things for all the people, take care of yourself, take care of your work, take care of your family, et cetera, et cetera. And you do that day after day after day. You know, you wake up one day and you're like, I've been doing this a lot of days, but where am I going and where's the there?
And a lot of times for people, it happens either at like a transition moment where something's unsustainable or like, I'm gonna be 50 in a few weeks. Like they have a milestone and they're like, oh, what's it all for? But [00:24:00] it's very easy to spend a lot of days in a very long and generally happy life. Just getting from one day to the next versus what is my end goal?
And then work backwards. So I think that's really important for people is you spend some time clarifying that it might help the messy middle feel a little less messy because you might be able to say, Hmm, of the choices I have available to me today, um, this one has, I think, a greater likelihood of giving me that long-term end state that I'm looking for than this one.
And so then there's a little bit of relief and clarity like, okay, I'm gonna choose this. I'm choosing it. Why? I think it's putting me closer to those goals that are really important. And that's one thing I would say to people is look further out than simply like the next day, the next week, the next month.
Mm-hmm. Where it just all feels busy and chaotic and you're like, I don't know how I'm gonna do all the thing than what I'm really doing. This is where I think good storytelling is also really important. Storytelling to ourselves and storytelling to others, especially if we are transitioning from, I used to do one thing and now I am doing something else.
Or maybe I was. [00:25:00] Not in the workforce. 'cause I was raising my kids and now I'm coming back and I'm starting a venture or whatever. And I, and so I always tell people, 'cause I talk to, you know, in the work that I do having taught business students for a long time, um, is I talk to a lot of job seekers and I always tell people the story you need to tell is that every single thing that happened to you in your life from the lemonade stand you started when you were five years old to the job you had last week was absolutely perfectly leading you to this moment in this conversation that you were in.
And it is your job to tell that story. So if you are jumping laterally from one com, you know, from one competitor to another to do the same thing, of course you're gonna play up the idea like, I've already done this job before. Of course. Like I come in like ready to hit the ground running. Let's say you're in transition and you're switching to do something very different than what you did before.
You're like, of course this is the natural move. All of those other skills that I was developing to this point, to be able to develop that kind of like cross industry, cross-functional expertise that I'm now bringing here that are gonna enable me to to [00:26:00] excel, that's the story you wanna tell. So I think when people are in these transitions, it's really important to work on their storytelling because the storytelling of like.
Everything's kind of a mess. Like I don't really know where I'm going. That's authentic, but it's not the authenticity that's really gonna get you your results. Like you can say that, but you should only say that to somebody that you really want to hug you. Or coach you. Yes, yes. You say it to somebody where you're trying to like build your status and your and your brand and instead, I wouldn't bring that to the networking event.
No. Yeah, exactly. Right. Instead, I would go with a different, equally authentic truth, which is like, here's all my great transferrable skills, like here's all the amazing things I'm doing that I'm excited to bring into this new stage or this new venture. You have to tell that story. People do not care about us.
I mean, they care, but they don't care about us as much as they care about themselves. No one is trying to like write your story for you. No one's putting all the pieces together being like, well, then they did this. You have to do that. And so when you're in that part, the messier it feels [00:27:00] the more important your storytelling is because if you don't say anything, you certainly don't wanna be unintentionally projecting to other people.
This is just all messy and chaotic, and it doesn't make any sense. That's not serving you well. So you're the storyteller to say, okay, here's how all of this fits together perfectly, just like a puzzle.
Megan Gillikin: Mm. I love that I'm scribbling all these notes. 'cause as you're talking, there's so many things that I'm like, yes, yes, yes.
I remember as you talked about, the starting with you, you know, thinking about the end and the retirement. I remembered that and that was one of those things that really stood out to me is like, how do you want people to talk about you? How do you want them to describe like, how you impacted them and their lives?
I loved that part. Then you also mentioned something that really spoke to me, and that is, you're right, there's no one that works harder than women. And I think we tend to gloss over our accomplishments, you know, big and small. And I remember hearing something on a podcast, this was a few years ago, but this woman, she really focused on, you know, [00:28:00] helping women identify their story.
And she said one of the exercises that you can do that just was a, a light bulb moment for me is get a piece of paper out and write down like. You are, you know, when you were 10, when you were 20, when you were 30, when you were 40, when you were 50. And think about like, what are the, the big moves that you made or the moves that were really meaningful.
What are the things that you overcame in a season of life? And then what did that require? Either, you know, strengths or capability wise, and I think that's part of what you're talking about. It's like, look back at your accomplishments. You're moving so fast, you're doing all these things and Sure, I think we all hit those seasons.
I know I've been in those seasons of like, I don't know, I don't, everything is a mess and I'm trying to figure out what comes next. But being able to look back and say like, okay, I built this business, I sold this business. I, you know, hired these team members. Brought three humans into the world while I was an entrepreneur.
Like finding those things and then figuring out like [00:29:00] what's the storyline through that of who I am as a person and what that might look like in a messy middle stage. So I, I love that, and that helped me recall that, that exercise really helpful for me.
Alison Fragale: Absolutely. Yeah.
Megan Gillikin: Yeah. So. As we were talking about what people are gonna say about you and how you impacted them, something that you spoke about in the book is the idea of other promoters.
So those people who are talking about you in a room when you are not there. And I know that that's something that is beneficial for those in, you know, leadership and within corporate businesses as well as those that are entrepreneurs that are working with other business owners or past clients. So, how.
Can we lean into the power of other promoters more for growth?
Alison Fragale: Yeah, so the idea is that your, i i in the book is fundamentally about the science of status, like how much we're respected and regarded by other people, and how that's just a really important resource for happy [00:30:00] life and, and career success.
What people learn about us comes from two places. Basically, it comes from us, all the touch points we have with somebody who we teach them about who we are and what we can do and what we believe and how we care, and all those things. So that's one source of information that we, and that that's what we've been talking about right now, you and I, how we make that as positive as possible.
Then the other way people learn about people is essentially what's said about them when they're not around. And back to the idea of like things that happened when we were younger and growing up. I always say ever since middle school, right? Everyone has been conditioned to think about people talking about you behind your back as the worst possible thing that could happen, uh, and in middle school perhaps it is, but generally, in life, a lot of things people say about us behind our back are positive.
It's how we all get to know each other. It's how when people vouch for each other, when people introduce each other, when people refer each other, like, oh my, when you do that, you're not like, that person's kind of, you know, they're meh, but like, you should go meet 'em anyway. No. They're like, they're amazing.
You're gonna love 'em. Here's why you think you're gonna love 'em. Right? And they talk you up and they sing your praises, and that's how doors get opened. [00:31:00] What happens when a door gets opened that way is now you are not starting as a stranger. You are starting an interaction with another human being who is already primed to like you and respect you and value you because someone, they like respect and value you vouch for you.
So that's really important for us and the more we can leverage that, then the bigger our brand, our, you know, our personal brand and our story grows without us having to be the ones that do it. We have to be willing to do it. You can't abdicate your responsibility, but you can't do it all yourself. One, you just don't have enough time.
You won't touch enough people in your life. And so you, you are gonna need to leverage your other promoters, your, your network to do this. Um, and the second. Is other people can brag on you in ways you'll never be able to brag about yourself, even if you're really good at talking about yourself. Other people get to say crazy good things about you that still are gonna sound weird if they come outta your mouth.
And so it's super effective to have other people talking you up. So I, I talk about three things that are really [00:32:00] important and they're simple. But if we start to practice these things consistently, we get more people talking us up. First is, I just say put yourself in a situation to meet more people. That rule number one.
People cannot talk you up if they do not know you exist. So the second we bring someone into, like, we bring ourselves into someone else's awareness, we at least have the possibility that they could become a fan. So as we start to like have more conversations, and I, you know, I, and the next person who could talk you up could truly be anywhere.
They don't have to be somebody who is in your industry. In your workplace. They could be a parent at your kid's school, they could be somebody. I, I, I give an example in the book of somebody I met at an airport who ended up being really influential and helpful to me. And so want just getting in that habit of like meeting more people, talking to people.
And a lot of them will just come into your life for a five minute conversation and they'll, you'll never see them again. But some of them will be gems of, you know, promoters that you would never know if you didn't open yourself up. The second thing is to look for really easy ways [00:33:00] to gain that person's respect, because then no one's gonna talk you up if they don't value you.
So you have to first do the work to make sure that person sees your value before you can rely on them to start talking about you. And I, I think that's coming, that's looking for easy ways to use your capabilities to make other people's lives better, no matter what it is. So one of the things I do, for example, I, I'm in a lot of.
Introductory networking type situation. I speak a lot for a living. I like Audi. Yesterday I had an audience of, you know, 800 people and people are coming up to me and talking to me, and it's like, two minutes here, two minutes there. You know, that kind of stuff. You're just always in those situations and many entrepreneurs, right?
Constantly meeting new people and all these things, and so one of the things I do, I just PI condition to myself that as I listen to people, oh, well all I'm listening to is I listen to their story, is I'm thinking, how could I help them? What is it that that person cares about as I'm learning about them that I might be able to add value to?
And it could be all kinds [00:34:00] of things. I mean, I just talked to a woman a couple months ago at an event and she told me she was coming to Chicago where I live. And so I say, what? I always say, Hey, if you ever need any help, like restaurants, hotels, whatever, just let me know. And she said, I'm coming here, I'm coming to Chicago to play pinball.
And I was like, that is very specific and not something I'm truly an expert in. I'm like, you know what? I do know one place that just sent an announcement. They just opened an arcade. Huh? I wonder if this place has pinball. So I just took a few seconds to open my phone and scroll through and I'm like, oh, this place is something that just came, came through my email.
Is this the kind of thing you're looking for? And she looked, she's like, oh my God, look at that. Yeah, totally. She took, took the name down, and there's like a little bit of luck that I had happened to get an email, but the part that wasn't luck was the idea of listening to people's stories. And the second I hear them say something that I think, Hmm, how could I help you with that?
I'm quick to jump in and once you start doing that, you start to realize, oh, there's a lot of ways like making introductions to people or sending them things that you've read that could be helpful. There's just so much that you could do that's [00:35:00] super easy, like two minutes or less easy. And I think people need to, to make those investments more often.
And then the third thing is you need to motivate people to pick up the microphone, meaning. There's a lot of people who value you and respect you, but they may at this moment not be out there telling other people about it. Not because they wouldn't, but because they're living their own life and they have absolutely no idea that that's something that would be meaningful to you.
So they're not gonna step in and do it, but if you prompt them just a little bit, they'll be much more likely to talk you up. And I think the two, or, I know the two ways to prompt people are either you talk them up first. So I go back to reciprocity rules, relationships. You become a great talker upper of other people, they instinctively will reciprocate when they find out about it by talking you up.
So it's one of the most like generous, authentic, but also strategic things that we can do is praise people more and ta and find public opportunities to sing their praises [00:36:00] because they will start to do that for us. And then the second one is that we should, if we outright ask them. When that makes people sometimes a little bit afraid, like, I'm gonna ask you to talk me up.
But I always say like, this is what the psychologist, you know, benefit of being a psychologist is. We know people, for the most part are generally the same. Like, they kind of work the same. So, um, Dan Pink, who's a great author and written a ton, a book, I, he was in a book author group given a talk recently and he said, yeah, his, one of his pieces of advice to authors is like, stop thinking you're so special.
If you think it's interesting, chances are other people will too, because everyone's kind of the same. Then it's true for this idea of asking for help, which is you like being helpful. It may give you joy if you think you can help another person. Now, you're also busy, so you don't want help. You can't take on helpful things that are gonna be too much work.
You just don't have the capacity. But if there's an opportunity to help someone in an easy way that they would really appreciate and is not really hard for you, you're all, you would totally wanna know [00:37:00] what it is. Because it's a win for you, maximum help, minimum effort. A hundred percent. I'm down for that.
So when someone says to you, Hey, I want you to go say things about me that you, I know you believe, uh, and I want you to tell other people that you know those things, everyone's like, oh, that's super easy. I'm really glad you told me. Wouldn't have occurred to me. You needed me to do that. But now that I know, I'm really relieved because I can easily do it.
I'm gonna have that, that warm feeling of like, the second I do it, I've helped somebody. Right. And that's exactly what I wanted to do. So when we ask people who value us to go, Hey, go talk me up in this, in this other environment, um, people are really happy to do it, and that makes people really afraid. But when they start to think about it, wait, what if it were reversed?
Like what if someone you really respected came to you and said, Hey, you know these people, I don't know. The next time you're talking with them, can you drop my name and say something about me because I'm, you know, trying to get to know them or whatever. You would be like, yeah, that's not really hard. Like, I'll just [00:38:00] find an opportunity when I'm chatting with them and I'll say something about you and it'll be great.
So those are the kinds of things that we can do to like take the respect and the, and the admiration that we already have from our network and get them to do more work spreading that far and wide. So if you think about like. A business, it's a similar idea, right? If you're the entrepreneur you need your fans to, to basically go and tell everybody else, like, the product is amazing, the service is amazing.
Everybody else needs it. You need people spreading that word. You can't touch all of your customers directly. No matter what you do. You're going to need your core supporters to be able to spread that brand for you. It's the same thing when you are the brand. Hmm.
Megan Gillikin: So many good things that you said. I have to revisit my notes.
So as you were talking about other promoters, at the beginning I was thinking about, okay, how does this play out in my day-to-day life? And then you went there, you went exactly there. Like one of my favorite things to [00:39:00] do is at a networking event, if I know someone. The other person doesn't to be able to be like, oh my gosh, you don't know Jill.
She's one of the best photographers. She takes my family photos. She, you know, it's the best brand photos that I've ever had. You have to know her. She's the best. Here she is. I think the in-person intros is great. I also love an opportunity if someone is like, Hey, I'm looking for. So and so resource, like someone that does this and I know someone, I'm like, let me introduce you.
I love to send an email. So I'll be like, here's Jill. She does brand photography. I've copied Sarah on here. Sarah said she's looking for someone. Here's why I love Jill. Those are like those simple, easy ways to, I guess going back to what you said about the reciprocity rules, relationships, right? Like I've always thought about it as, um.
Coins in the relationship bank that you are creating with people. Because I got my start in hotels and I used to [00:40:00] have vendors coming to the hotel all the time wanting to be added to our preferred vendor list. And it was just a direct outright ask instead of like, Hey, I'd love to get to know what you're looking for, the clients that you're working with.
They were just like, can you add me to your preferred vendor list? Mm-hmm. And it was an immediate turnoff. And I, again, I know we've experienced people like this. Everyone listening to this, I know you have as well, Alison, but finding those ways to figure out like, how can I add value in a way that is within the bandwidth that I have and how can I be curious about, you know, what this person needs?
And you obviously you've written a book. I've had a few friends that have written books too, and I immediately think like. They haven't asked me, but one of the first things I can do is write a review of their book. Right. Like share it on Instagram, like talk about it. Because those are the things that will come back tenfold in my experience when you need their support as well.
[00:41:00] Absolutely. So that
Alison Fragale: idea of just like finding the easy ways to be, to be helpful and starting with what you love and what and what you know. That like you, for example, can already tell, like when you're talking about you have the history in hotels, you're like, you, so one of, one of the goal, one of the rules that I have for myself is if someone asks me something that is generally within my space, if I don't know the answer, I, I will never say, I don't know.
If I'm not, if I'm in a live situation, I, I'll probably say like, I'll let me get back to you. But if they ask me over email or social, which often DM me or something, which often happens, I will never just write back. I don't know. I will find the answer because I can find the answer quicker than they can.
I think like a lot of times people will ask me because of my field, like, oh, I need a great book on like rebuilding cultures after mergers. You're like, that's not my space. But I get why you asked me because I am in the space of organizational psychology. I'm like, I bet you with the good Google search, I know more people in this space than you do.
I can pretty much figure out what's good and what's not good. In five minutes, I can solve that. So the same thing like. [00:42:00] If someone says to you like, where should I stay in Portugal? And you're like, I, I don't know, but I know that I could solve it quicker than you and that, so that's one of my personal things is I, if it's anywhere near my space, I will not say, I don't know.
I will invest five minutes to get the person an answer because I know that I can. And that that is that little piece of value. And I can't tell you how many people, I've had a 20 plus year career teaching people. I have advised so many students. I have talked to students about so many different things. I mean.
Job negotiations, like breakups, what to wear in interviews, crises like imposter syndrome, you know, moments, whatever. I, whatever it is, they're on their mind. I'll talk to them. They're my students, always My student, I cannot tell you how many people say to me. 'cause now they're all big deals. Like the kids of 20 years ago now grow up and they run all the things, right?
So now I talk to them in these very different roles where they're like, you know, the Cee o of this or that, or whatever. But they're like, oh my God, you know, you, you remember that time when I was really like stressed about [00:43:00] something and I came to you and chatted with you and you helped me out and you talked me through it.
And the answer is, I don't remember. Because they take a lot of those conversations. I remember them, but I don't remember like their moment of need. But that whole point of like all those years later, that 15 minutes was, they were still carrying that with them as a way that I had helped them. And it were like, whatever I can do for you, you know, how can I be helpful?
When you see enough of those things, you do start to realize how impactful that is. Now, did I do it 15 years ago with this idea of like, ha ha, ha, like someday no really recla the value on this? No. But when you start to have the mentality of how can I give in the easiest possible ways to make other people's lives better, and it just starts to be a muscle that you flex all the time, um, you start to then see the compounding effects of it.
We were talking about, you know, offline about kids. Like that's one of the things I are always explaining to my kids is like, think about how you can make somebody else's life better, like even a teacher. Like you know, it [00:44:00] doesn't matter that they're more powerful or more knowledgeable or whatever than you are.
How can you make another human being's life better in a way that doesn't derail you from all the other things you're trying to do that day? Like that's the magic.
Megan Gillikin: Yes. Oh my gosh. It goes back to, you know, I have three daughters and. They come home with their report cards and to me, you know, as long as they're, they're passing, it's great.
But where I wanna put my energy and where I want them to really think about is like, what is the social and emotional intelligence skills that are going to serve them so much in life where you are paying attention to other people and you are aware of, you know, how you can show up and help without obviously like overextending yourself.
'cause I've been down that road before. But yeah, it's the like asking questions. It's the fact that like in this busy, loud, overwhelming, noisy world, like you can make these tiny little impacts that are really, really important. Especially, especially now.
Alison Fragale: Yeah. [00:45:00] And esp like especially when you don't need anything from somebody, like the littlest act of kindness is really received and remembered and it's just the beginning of a relationship and they're much, and you know, and I just think that the other thing we all need to recognize is.
We, we all at all points, we need other people's assistance, right? And you may not know, you know, a year or two years down the road whose assistance you'll need, but you'll know you need someone like every single day when you think about your day, like something happens where you need other people, like, Hmm, I got a problem.
I don't know how to solve, or I don't know how to respond to this, like, email I got and I talk it through with somebody. Or I need, you know, to find somebody who's gonna do whatever like. Knows this company because I want to interview there or knows a great plumber because I have some kind of weird problem with my pipes.
Whatever. It's, we need people. And so knowing that you have people that you can call not knowing what the problem's gonna be, but knowing that people that say, I know I feel comfortable picking up the phone because I'm always doing stuff for you, so I know that you're gonna be happy to hear from me and you're not gonna think this is a big deal.
And engaging in those, you know, reciprocal [00:46:00] relationships. There's nothing wrong with investing for the future. And I think people feel like. If they have that mentality that they're not being unauthentic. But I, I was like, this is just how you know how it goes, is we know you're gonna need people the same way, you know, people are gonna need you and you're gonna play both roles.
But being, investing in those relationships all along the way so that when the unexpected becomes your biggest problem today, you're not compounding the panic by saying, I don't have anyone to call. That I, that I know is like gonna be happy to hear from me and excited to help me. That just makes a stressful situation even worse.
So you're essentially investing for those like stressful situations that you can't predict in the future.
Megan Gillikin: Yeah. I love it. And I know in the book you talk about so many other ways to view this, how this shows up in not just your professional life, but life in general and just talking with you. I'm like, man, I need to go back.
It's been a year. I need to reread this book again. So, um, in a moment I would love to [00:47:00] ask you. To share with someone listening to this, what is your call to action? What is that like? You've listened to this episode, we've covered a lot of things, but what's the key takeaway? But before we get to that, um, I know that you are speaking at the Women Lead NC event here in North Carolina in November, on November 13th.
You are the keynote speaker, and I'm so excited to see you in real life there. I'll be speaking there as well. If someone is interested in grabbing a ticket to that, I'll make sure that we include that in the link in the show notes. But I'm, I know you're gonna be talking about the book and talking about being a likable badass to a room of a thousand plus women, correct?
Alison Fragale: I am. And I'm very excited about it. Yeah. So we're gonna dig into more specifics on these types of strategies and thinking about the science of this concept of sta, which I've touched on here. Really what that means and why it's so important to us as human beings and how we can start to impact our status in ways that are gonna be, well, again, help us live happier, [00:48:00] help us, um, achieve more in, in whatever ways we wanna achieve it.
So, yes. So that is, um, the plan. I'm super excited about it.
Megan Gillikin: Yeah. We're excited to have you back in North Carolina again.
Alison Fragale: Absolutely.
Megan Gillikin: So, Allison, as we're wrapping up our conversation, we covered so much, so many golden nuggets within this conversation, but. What is the one thing that you really want someone that has tuned into this episode to walk away and maybe take action on?
Alison Fragale: Yeah, I, I, the, the main like message I always wanna reinforce with people is authentic and strategic are not opposites. You should live your life such that you are being both. And I think this is a big misconception that people have. They just think if I'm doing something intentionally to try to bring about a good outcome, then I'm not being true to my values.
Or if I'm being true to my values, I shouldn't be caring about what other people think. And I say, no, be both things. Right. Very authentic and also thoughtful and purposeful [00:49:00] about how you show up in a way and what that's, you know, how that's going to affect how other people see you and, and, and wanna be in relationships with you.
I think finding that space, as soon as people find that space. It's both authentic and strategic. Everything starts to sink. Talking about yourself doesn't feel cringey or weird anymore. Right. Building the relationships and network you need starts to feel really easy, and that's really what we're looking for is to, is to experiment with ways that we can be our true selves with some strategy of showing up with intention to get people to value us the way we deserve to be valued.
Right. I always say to people, mm-hmm. If you don't care and you're not good at anything, there's nothing I can say that is going to help you. I'm presuming that you do care and you are good at stuff, and so all you're trying to do is communicate it so that you get people to recognize it, that truth. So that's really, I think the idea of, of having people find that, uh, intersection of authenticity and strategy because that's where people start to live [00:50:00] with ease and get the outcomes they deserve, and also feel like it's reinforcing who they are, not at the expense of who they're.
Megan Gillikin: I love that. I love that reframe and the shift of looking at how being authentic and strategic are overlapping. So thank you for sharing. Thank you for writing such an incredible book. If someone wants to grab the book or follow you, where shall we send them?
Alison Fragale: Okay, so if you were looking for a one-stop shop, I would send people to my website, which is Allison for gale.com, and from there, there are links to buy the book.
You can see all the media I've ever done, like all the podcasts, all the articles, all that stuff. You can also click buttons to join, find me on LinkedIn and Instagram, and I have a free newsletter that's called The Upper Hand, which is Behavioral Science to Help Women Excel. And so all of those things are different ways to follow me depending on what people like.
And the easiest way to get to 'em is from my. Perfect.
Megan Gillikin: We'll put that in the show notes as well, and I can't wait to see [00:51:00] you in North Carolina in November. Hopefully, you listening to this will grab a ticket and come join us. I know it's gonna be here before we know it. Thank you so much. I loved this conversation and I hope that you did too.
Allison's reminder that authentic and strategic aren't opposites really hit home for me because when you can show up as both, that's when leadership starts to feel lighter, clearer, and more You. And I loved her advice about making people curious about you. That was one of my takeaways that I'm going to be practicing at my next networking event for sure.
Now, if you're in North Carolina or you want to make a trip to North Carolina, Allison and I will both be speaking at the Women Lead in Sea N on November 13th in Raleigh, North Carolina. So if you'd love an extra boost of inspiration or you'd like to see us in person, be sure to check out the link in the show notes where you can grab your ticket for that event.
And if this episode gave you a little courage to own your story or share your [00:52:00] wins more authentically, I would love to hear from you. You can find me on Instagram at at forreal with Megan, and tell me your biggest takeaway, and if you haven't yet, please follow the show and leave a quick review. It helps more people find the podcast and it would mean the world to me.
This episode was edited and produced by Walk West and brought to you by the Planner's Vault, my online membership. For wedding pros, thanks again for being here and I'll see you next time.