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Divorce Dialogues helps people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and perspective. Through thoughtful conversations with experts and practitioners, the show explores the emotional, financial, legal, and relational realities of divorce, so listeners can make better decisions, communicate more effectively, and move forward with greater confidence.
Because divorce is more than a legal transaction, it’s a deeply human transition.
Michael Saini (00:00):
The number one factor for impacting negatively on children is not the separation divorce itself. It's whether or not children are exposed to conflict. And so I want everybody to know is that protecting the children from conflict will ensure that they're able to adjust well and be okay even though you've separated. Separation happens. It happens to almost half of all marriages, and so most kids find a way to work it out and they're just fine.
Katherine Miller (00:32):
Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Katherine Miller. This is where we have honest, thoughtful conversations about divorce, the emotional, financial, legal, and family questions no one prepares you for. From deciding whether to separate, to navigating the process with dignity, to rebuilding what comes next, Divorce Dialogues is here to help you find clarity, perspective, and a better way forward. Divorce can make it very tempting to look for a simple explanation for a complicated behavior, especially when our kids are involved. A child suddenly doesn't want to see a parent. A child becomes anxious before a transition. A parent reports something the child has said or done that feels deeply concerning. And understandably, everyone wants to know, what does this mean? What's happening here? And what should we do about it? But children's behavior doesn't always tell us one simple story. In fact, it almost never does. That same behavior can have very different explanations depending on the child, the parents, the family dynamics, and what else is happening around them.
(01:44):
And when parents are already in conflict, it can become even harder to distinguish what we know from what we fear or from the story we've begun to tell ourselves about what's happening. I see that all the time in my practice. And so my guest today is Michael Saini. He's a professor and Factor-Inwentash Chair in Law and Social Work at the University of Toronto. And Michael's work sits at the intersection of family law and social work with a focus on parenting disputes, inter-parental conflict, strained parent-child relationships, parenting plans, and the wellbeing of children involved in the family court system. For 19 years, he's conducted parenting plan evaluations and acted as children's counsel for Ontario's Office of the Children's Lawyer. Through his research and extensive work with families, Michael helps professionals and parents understand what the evidence can and cannot tell us when concerns about children arise during separation and divorce.
(02:39):
And I'm excited because today we're talking about how we make sense of children's behavior when families are in conflict and why we need to be careful about reaching conclusions too quickly and how parents and professionals can take children's experiences seriously while also remaining open to the complexity of what may actually be happened. Welcome, Michael Saini. I'm really happy to be having this chat with you because I see this in my practice all the time.
Michael Saini (03:04):
Yes. Thank you very much for having me on your show. I think you're doing a great job of providing this information and I'm really happy to be here with you today.
Katherine Miller (03:13):
Well, thank you. One of the things that happens that I see all the time, I think it's called splitting, where the child will say, "I don't want to go to daddy's house to mom. I don't want to go to mommy's house to dad. I don't want to leave here." And so both the parents then already in a state of conflict and a little bit activated are then riled up to feel like they need to do something so that the child spends more time with them, just using that as an example, even though they're both hearing the same thing. Is that something that you come across in your work as well?
Michael Saini (03:48):
Oh, for sure. So for these children, I would say that they're having loyalty conflicts. And when you think of a child being caught in between their parents' conflict, you can think of both parents pulling that one arm of the child. And so the child is feeling really stuck in the middle of that. Sometimes though, it's just easier for the child to say, "I'm going to be over here because then I don't have to get pulled so much by those directions." Or other times they may just say, "I'm going to say whatever I think the parents want me to say because I don't want to deal with that conflict. I don't want to deal with their feelings of disappointment." And so yeah, I had a terrible time at dad's place. We didn't do anything. He didn't cook me anything. And I didn't have any fun at mom's place either, and she didn't do anything and she didn't cook for me either.
(04:42):
And so kids learn to adapt to their situation. And if you put kids in the middle, they're going to sometimes get stuck and sometimes they're going to have to choose between either protecting both relationships or protecting one relationship.
Katherine Miller (04:58):
Yeah, and that's a terrible place for a kid to be. And yet sometimes parents really have a genuine concern about a child's safety or wellbeing. And when that comes up as a dispute between them, why is it sometimes so hard to separate the actual risk from the effects of the conflict between the parents?
Michael Saini (05:18):
Yeah, I think there's a couple of reasons. One is that we don't have necessarily the greatest tools to differentiate different types of risks. And so there's lots of debate in the field about how to assess for family violence versus coercive control versus alienation versus the impact of step-families. And so we're left trying to figure out and differentiate among the various causes that children, for why they may not want to have a relationship with a parent. But it can be really challenging because again, children are also protecting their families, they're protecting themselves, and it can be really difficult to sort all that out.
Katherine Miller (06:03):
I think that's really, really true. And it's some of the most difficult negotiations happen when a child or children don't want to see the other parent. They're like, "I want to be here. I'm home," whatever the reason is. And it's very hard for the parent that doesn't want to be seen not to blame the other parent. And so it's like your fault. And I remember a long time ago I had a couple of mediation and the mom said, "What do you want me to do? Stand at the kitchen door with a shotgun and keep them from coming to the house?" And the dad was like, "Yes, I do want you to do that." I'm telling you that was not going to happen in the town in which they will. Maybe you should talk a little bit about what alienation is and then how to distinguish that from other problems that can arise.
Michael Saini (06:47):
I like the umbrella of parent-child contact problems. And within that umbrella, there's many reasons why a child may not want to spend time with a parent. And maybe it's because of the child's vulnerabilities. They just don't go well from one place to the other, so they have transition challenges. It may be that the parent has a new partner and they don't like that new partner. It could be that one parent, and this is where you get into the alienated behaviors, one parent may be denigrating the other parent. Why do you want to go over there? They don't really spend time with you anyways. They never really spent that much time with you. You should really stay with me. They don't really do that much fun for you. They don't pay for anything. I'm the one who has to do all the work. And so they'll denigrate the other side to make their side seem like a better fit for the child.
(07:43):
And so that would be more of alienating behaviors type of factor that you would want to consider. But it's really difficult to sort all these out because you may actually have denigration, but also at the same time, you also may have genuine concerns around safety. And oftentimes these co-parents who are now separated don't have sufficient trust in their relationship. And so they're not able to talk about these happenings. And so there's a lot more opportunity for parents to hear things from their kids and put it in a perspective of, oh yeah, for sure. There's another example of how I though this person may be. And so that negative narrative and that negative cycle can just continue so that as we as professionals come in and try and sort out the complexity, it's really difficult. And unfortunately, too many professionals, they just look for the simple solutions.
(08:44):
Well, this must be alienation or this must be a safety issue. And often it's probably something that's much more complex than that.
Katherine Miller (08:53):
What do you think are some of the common assumptions that professionals, courts, lawyers, even parents make about children's behavior that aren't necessarily supported by actual research?
Michael Saini (09:04):
Some of the behaviors is that not all behaviors are indicative of being harmed by a parent. It's really difficult to sort out. In fact, it's actually the opposite. So for example, in situations where a child's been exposed to family violence, the research shows that you may not actually see those behaviors be manifested in a negative way until 10 years later. And so you won't actually see those behaviors until the child starts to get involved in risky behaviors, substance misuse and getting involved with the law and those type of behaviors that you can then point back to, oh yeah, that must be related to what was happening then. But it's really difficult to sort out because a lot of kids, they just learn to adapt. And so if you don't see behaviors, that's the other assumption is that the lack of behaviors does not suggest that the kids are doing just fine.
(10:03):
And too many times the quiet kid, the agreeable child, the one who just goes with the flow, we just don't assume that there's any problems with that child because they seem agreeable. But they also can have negative impacts into the future because we don't know what that looks like until sometimes many years later.
Katherine Miller (10:23):
So how can people take what a child says or how they act or what their distress is about seriously and without jumping to conclusions and also without missing something?
Michael Saini (10:37):
This also goes back to what theory a professional or a parent may have about why the child does not want to spend time with the parent. If you have a theory of it must be because of the other parent, then you're not going to want to listen to that child because you don't think they have independence of thought. But if you feel that the child is being harmed at that parent's home, you want the child to have all the weight and whatever they decide we go with. So that parent would say, "Well, how can I bring the child to the other parent's home? They don't want to go." Even though they have to go to school, and even if the child says, "I don't want to go to school," you still encourage them to go to school. And so it's somewhere in between. It's allowing children to have their voice because it's really important we listen to children and we go underneath the iceberg of what is the fear, the worry, the concern, rather than the behavior of I want to go, don't want to go.
(11:33):
And so you want to learn from the child, but it's really about voice, not so much choice. And we don't want to put children with all the weight to make the decision of whether they want to have a relationship with the parent or not, because that's putting a lot of pressure on those kids.
Katherine Miller (11:48):
Complicated. I know that you talk and write about a conflict-driven custody narrative. Can you tell us what that is? Because it sounds like one's a bruin here in what we're talking about. What is it and how can you see it start to take shape?
Michael Saini (12:02):
So a really easy way of seeing these conflict narratives start to concretize into this narrative is using generalizations. A parent will say, "They never do this," or, "He always does this," or, "She has been like this forever." And so it's where the relationship conflict equals the conflict itself. And so if the relationship is considered to be rigid, the conflict is going to be rigid. And when you go to litigation, unfortunately, the courts are set up for these false binaries where one parent says, "I'm a really good parent, and the problem is with the other side." And that's their narrative. And then the other side does their own affidavit that says, "I'm a good parent. The promise was the other side." And that's what you have to do when you write an affidavit to show that you're a good parent and the problem is with the other person.
(13:02):
And so those narratives can start having a life of their own where those are the stuck states of the parents. And then it becomes really hard to look for reframing and look for alternatives or exceptions to those rules. So when a parent is always like a parent never shows up on time, well, were there times where a parent did show up on time? And how can we build on that? And so you're building on the exceptions, not so much on the generalizations. The way I look at it in mediation is that parents don't go to the grocery store with a list of things they don't want. And when they think about the parenting plan that they want, they shouldn't come with all of the negative generalizations of the other parent, but they should come with solutions of what this could look like moving forward. And as mediators, as professionals, we need to reframe those negative narratives into opportunities of solution and progress.
Katherine Miller (14:08):
Divorce Dialogues is brought to you by Miller Law Group. We believe divorce isn't just a legal process, it's a human transition. At Miller Law Group, we help people navigate divorce with dignity, clarity, and respect, focusing on conversations that lead to better outcomes for families. Learn more at miller-law.com. As I'm listening to you, Michael, I'm thinking that when you have that litigation framework of right, wrong, and it's a false narrative too, of this right, wrong, I'm right, you're wrong, or the opposite. And of course, none of us are superstar parents with no flaws, and very few of us are so bad with no positive redeeming features. If you're forced into that I'm right, you're wrong narrative, you can't get better. Because you'll have to be telling yourself you're right all the time and that they're wrong. It makes it very hard. You feel very vulnerable and really at risk if as a parent in that fear place of a stranger is going to decide between us who is more deserving of being a parent or a custodial parent, a word I really hate, before the people are getting divorced.
(15:20):
I think that when people have children, they often don't discuss things like discipline. They don't discuss things like co-sleeping. They don't discuss things like curfews and bedtimes and all of these things. And so oftentimes there's a genuine underlying disagreement about what good parenting means. And for those listening, I'm putting air quotes around that. And as the relationship deteriorates either because of the disagreement around parenting or because of something else, then it just sort of gels and gels and crystallizes around the parenting disputes that then come blasting into the divorce and into a custody dispute. How does that sound to you?
Michael Saini (16:05):
So Winnicott's notion of good enough parenting is that if you think of a pyramid, at the very top of the pyramid, you have the most excellent, flawless, exceptional super parent that none of us are. And the majority of us are below that in what's called the good enough parent. And so a parent who provides their child craft dinner, mac and cheese on a Wednesday because they're tired or they're busy, it's not fantastic, but it's good enough. And in the end, that's totally okay. It's okay to be a good enough parent. It's only when it goes below that into an abusive parent. And so what happens in custody and parenting plan disputes is that a lot gets disputed about what is good enough parenting as if we should be expert parents because we've separated, even though that's a time where it can be the most challenging to be that so-called expert parent, which we can never really attain to.
(17:12):
And so it's set up for failure for many parents, and it creates additional conflicts because we expect the other parent to be perfect when we separate, even though we didn't expect them to be perfect when we were together. And so framing within the good enough concept I think really helps parents because as long as your child's not being harmed, it's okay to have chips the occasional time. It's okay to have the mac and cheese. It's okay to have activities that are not the greatest. As long as we're not being harmful to the kids, it's all going to be okay. What will be not okay is if we have so much conflict about those good enough issues that the conflict itself becomes the determined factor of whether the child's going to be maladjusted. And so sometimes we argue too much about these issues and it's the arguing itself that has the negative overall problems for the child as they get older.
Katherine Miller (18:16):
I really want to pause and highlight that for a minute because I think that's what all the parenting experts that I have interviewed and talked to and worked with over the years say about parental conflict. Some conflict is inevitable, but if one parent focuses their good parenting definition on nutritious meals, I am a good parent because I make a home-cooked meal every single night, and I have done that every single night since Johnny was born. And you never do that. You take the kids to McDonald's on the way back from soccer. I mean, how could anyone do that when I define myself as a good parent by cooking home cooked nutritious meals that I've planned out in order to meet their needs? But how much worse is it for the kid to be arguing about the occasional McDonald's versus having it? And I think that learning to pick your battles when you're going through a custody dispute and really think about what really is important.
Michael Saini (19:24):
Yeah, I just want to emphasize what you're saying because there's research that shows that it just takes one competent parent for the child to be adjusted, and it does not matter which parent that may be. And so if you are doing what you ought to be doing to protect your child from the conflict, to making sure your child's needs are being met, to making sure that the child is being sheltered and supported, your child's going to be just fine. But if you give up on being competent to take on being right, well then your child loses. And so that's a really important decision that you have to make. Do you want to protect your child or do you want to be right against somebody who you could never be right with when you were together, which is why you probably separated in the first place.
Katherine Miller (20:14):
I think that is such an important lesson for anyone who might be listening who's worried about the other parent, that you can solve for that just by being the best parent you can be, not by trying to change the other person. And I also think, and I'm going to add one other though to this, Michael, so you tell me if you think this is true. I actually think that it can be very tempting when you're that parent to trash talk the other parent. And especially if that person is trash talking you, which does happen. And I think though that it's hard to do this. And there is a real benefit in teaching your child how to handle trash talking that isn't also trash talking. There's an opportunity to teach resilience and appropriate conflict resolution, even if it's one-sided.
Michael Saini (21:02):
Yeah. I talk to parents who say, "Well, my child has a right to know about the other parent." And I say, "Well, would you like to know all the dirty secrets of your parents or at least of one of your parents?" And probably not. I mean, you probably are just happy not knowing all the bad things about your parents that you probably don't want to know about because you love them and you're happy with your relationship, and you don't need that relationship to be destroyed by somebody because they have anger towards that person. Because if you destroy a child's image of the other parent, you're not enlightening your child. You're in fact harming your child because a child feels less connected by healthy supports. For example, if a parent doesn't show up to pick up the child on time, instead of saying, "Well, you know the way they are, they don't care for you, they don't love you," it's going to make the child feel abandoned and not supportive and not loved.
(22:00):
But if you could say, for example, I'm sure your parent has a reason because they wouldn't do this on purpose to you, even if you don't feel that way, what you've done is you've protected the child's sense of self. And by doing so, you are being the more competent parent.
Katherine Miller (22:17):
So Michael, what if a parent has a genuine concern about their child being at risk, but doesn't want to do some of the things that we're talking about here by over-escalating the situation or putting the kid in the middle? What do you propose that they do to address the concern?
Michael Saini (22:34):
Well, if there's significant safety concerns, then I think we need to make sure that we are doing a proper safety assessment. And so we need to be involving maybe your pediatrician if you don't want to go to court, getting therapeutic support. It's creating protective spaces for your child to be able to talk about these issues outside of the dispute. Most kids say, and we know this from the literature, that they don't want to talk to their parents about their separation. Because again, going right back to the very beginning, they feel these loyalty conflicts and they don't talk to their friends because they don't want to burden their friends about these issues. And so who do they talk to? And so just being in groups with other kids or being able to speak to a therapist if needed helps to normalize the separation experience and provides the child an opportunity to be safeguarded because if they have concerns, they're going to tell the therapist, they're going to tell the support people in their lives.
(23:37):
And so then you're not engaging in conflict, but instead you're helping to find solutions. With a caveat though, that if you have concerns for safety, that you feel the child's being harmed physically or emotionally or sexually or any other way, then you really need to call the Child Welfare Agency so that they can investigate.
Katherine Miller (24:01):
That's really good advice. All right, we're nearing the end of our time together, so I have just a couple of more questions I'd like to ask you. And the first one is what is one shift in thinking, a reframe, if you will, that could help somebody navigate custody issues and divorce differently than they might otherwise?
Michael Saini (24:20):
So I think a really good reframe would be rather than think about the other parent and the anger or the emotions you may have towards them, understand that we really need to focus on the children and understand that the reframe is that the anger is a secondary emotion and the primary emotion is fear, worry, and concern. And so if you're feeling angry towards the other parent, instead of exacerbating the anger, take a step back and figure out what's the concern, what's the worry, and then address the worry instead of the anger.
Katherine Miller (25:09):
That's really good advice. What is one thing that you wish that everyone knew before they went through a divorce?
Michael Saini (25:15):
Well, the number one factor for impacting negatively on children is not the separation divorce itself, even though divorce is considered to be an adverse childhood experience as described by Felitti and others in the ACE studies. But it's not divorce itself, it's whether or not children are exposed to conflict. And so my advice would be that I want everybody to know is that protecting the children from conflict will ensure that they're able to adjust well and be okay even though you've separated. Separation happens. It happens to almost half of all marriages. And so most kids find a way to work it out and they're just fine. It's those whose parents continue to be entrenched in litigation and high conflict and expose children to that conflict. They're the ones who are doing damage to their kids.
Katherine Miller (26:15):
Well, separation could be a way to protect a child or children from conflict too. It's not divorced parents conflict, it's parental conflict. And that often happens in a so-called intact family.
Michael Saini (26:27):
And the research shows that if you are in a hostile conflict-filled relationship, kids actually do better post-separation as long as you are separating the child from the conflict.
Katherine Miller (26:42):
Yeah. I've talked to so many adult children of divorce, and one of the things that they often say is, "My parents stayed together for us until," fill in the blank, "I went to college until high school, and I really wish they hadn't."
Michael Saini (26:58):
Yes. In fact, we're seeing a big jump in gray divorce. And if you look at is divorce easier for younger children or is it easier for kids in college? We find that kids in college are suffering much more because they're looking at their family pictures and saying, "It was a big facade." None of that was true. And so the whole sense of grounding of their family has been taken from their feet and they feel they have no connection. It's a real big challenge for many of these older kids who go to school only to come back from college to find out that their parents are no longer together.
Katherine Miller (27:36):
Well, Michael Saini, thank you so much for being my guest. It's been a really interesting conversation.
Michael Saini (27:41):
It has been. Thank you.
Katherine Miller (27:45):
If this conversation was helpful, share it with someone who might need it. And if you're navigating divorce yourself, you'll find more resources and episodes at miller-law.com. Make sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.