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Presented by the American Bar Association’s Law Student Division, the ABA Law Student Podcast covers issues that affect law students, law schools, and recent grads. From finals and graduation to the bar exam and finding a job, this show is your trusted resource for the next big step.
Todd Berger (00:00):
As a law student, it can be hard to grasp the opportunities before you, the myriad ways in which the law can be suited to an individual's passion. It's important to remember that the law rewards creativity not only in its execution, but in finding your own unique path forward. Consider the intersection of the law and medicine. Maybe you think of medical malpractice, maybe the broad field of health law for anyone specifically interested in the science of medical innovation. The field of intellectual property is often the first thing that comes to mind, but the work extends far beyond just filing patents. On today's episode, we speak with an expert in medical technology and biotechnology who reveals a career path to blend science, law, and business. Our conversation covers not only the core concepts of patent and trademark law, but also the critical importance of contracting and compliance with ever-changing regulations. This is the ABA law student podcast. Hey everybody. Hey Nayeli, how are you doing?
Nayeli Diaz (01:14):
Hello. I'm doing pretty good today. How about you?
Todd Berger (01:16):
Good, good. Great to see you again back on the podcast. And I know we're with Eve as well. How are you Eve?
Eve Albert (01:22):
I am amazing.
Todd Berger (01:24):
Well that was good. That was incredibly enthusiastic, which is a great way to start off the podcast. And also I've listened to the interview. I know you're very enthusiastic about the interview and I'm very enthusiastic about it as well. So you are up this week with your interview of our guest. So who are we talking to?
Eve Albert (01:43):
Today's episode talks with Jenna Matheny. She has had a long career in intellectual property in the medical and biological technology field. She spent 16 years assisting universities with the protection of their medical technology innovations and now she's the vice president and manning director at Aio IX Innovation Strategy. That's a consulting firm that works with technology developers to help protect their intellectual property.
Todd Berger (02:14):
That's great. And what attracted you to our guests? What made you want to speak to them?
Eve Albert (02:19):
I was really fascinated by this area. When I first started thinking about this episode, I didn't really know much about it, but once you kind of get into it, it's really fascinating. So it's a sect of intellectual property and I think the part that interests me the most about it is that it's something that you see in everything in the medical field. So the example that I was reading about was bandages are an example of medical technology technically, and it's something that is so common to us at this point, but that is something that somebody created the idea for. They had to go through this entire process to have ownership over it and there are lawyers behind every piece of medical technology and it was just something that I thought was really helpful for law students to know about, especially law students like me who may have at one point had an interest in medicine but decided to pursue the law. You don't have to stray too far from that. You can find a way to work that into your career.
Todd Berger (03:22):
That's great. A lot of different interests as far as medicine and IP and ip I think we think of as more traditionally tethered to the law, but medicine maybe felt like you got to make a choice at some point. Do I do this or that? And so it's kind of cool to see somebody who's able to be in the world of medicine and science and at the same time use their law degree. So no problem. We have a lot of listeners who might fall into that category or are thinking just more generally about their law degree and other things they might be interested in how they can use their degree as well. So there is hope for you and excited to get into the interview. So you ready to get started?
Eve Albert (04:00):
Absolutely. Jenna, thank you so much for joining us today. I wanted to get into this topic because while I was doing research for this podcast, I thought it was something that was interesting and I'm really glad that you're here to talk about this. As far as I understand, you have some expertise in the world of medical technology and biotechnology. First of all, what is the difference between those two?
Jenna Matheny (04:28):
So from my perspective, medical technology focuses a lot more on medical devices, things that are used in hospitals, whereas biotechnology is a different type of what we think of as medicines or drugs or treatments. Biotechnology is more comparable to drugs in the sense that drugs can be either small molecules or biotech, and it typically comes down to the way something is approved through the FDA
Eve Albert (04:52):
And which one do you have more experience working with
Jenna Matheny (04:57):
Biotechnology. But throughout my career I've worked in a number of different technology areas and I would say earlier in my career, more focused on medical technology and later in my career, more focused on biotechnology.
Eve Albert (05:08):
Okay, great. I have questions about both, so that's perfect. So would you mind just going through a general overview of how the law and medical technology overlaps? So from what I understand there's the design process, there's patents which are the most popular area that the law intersects with this field, and then regulatory approval, sales, marketing and maintenance, all of that. Can you give us a general idea of how big of a role those ideas play in somebody that might practice in this area?
Jenna Matheny (05:42):
Sure. So intellectual property, as you mentioned, is a key area for this and most medical technologies are protected through patents and patent applications. It's really important to be familiar with the rules of patenting, especially what can stop you from getting a patent. For example, if you are an attorney and you are working with the university client and that university client has a new medical device that they have invented and are seeking to have you file a patent application on, you'll want to know what questions to ask to make sure that they have not already done something to prevent a patent application from being filed. For example, disclosing the invention publicly before the filing of the patent application. Also, there's a lot of commercialization work that goes into developing bio technologies and this can look a lot like partnerships between different companies. It can look like license agreements between universities and companies.
(06:39):
It can look like co-development agreements with the government. So contracting is an underlooked, but huge part of the commercialization and development of medical technology. And then farther down the line, you do have the regulatory path. You will need to know what path your technology needs to go through in front of the FDA or abroad. If you're seeking to go international, you'll need to know what kind of clinical trials, if any, you'll need to prepare. You'll need to understand the rules around those clinical trials and then you'll need to know how to present that data to the FDA. And then further along the line you'll also have monitoring and you'll need to be sure that you are complying with the FDA rules on the backend once marketing approval has been granted.
Eve Albert (07:23):
So at what stage of this entire process do lawyers get involved?
Jenna Matheny (07:32):
Typically as sued as the client is aware that there is an invention. There may even be a role for attorneys in the pre-design process. For example, if someone is looking to make sure that they are not infringing upon someone else's intellectual property, they may ask for a patentability analysis to kind of get a sense of where the white space is in their particular area. But that does create difficulties because if you're designing to a patent to try to get a patent, then you run the risk of maybe you're not making the best design choices for the technology itself. So typically it starts at the point where the client is aware that they have an invention and they will contact an attorney, typically a patent attorney to develop a patent strategy which will involve a prior art assessment determining what is this thing going to be patentable, what types of claims might be available for the invention, and developing a strategy of where to file, when to file, and the timing of those filings in connection with any sort of public disclosure.
Eve Albert (08:39):
You gave us a couple things to think about. Would you say that patents are the most popular area where the law and medical technology intersect? Do you think that that's what most lawyers who are interested in this specific area will spend most of their time doing?
Jenna Matheny (08:54):
Yes, for the business aspects. So those two things are kind of go hand in hand because even once you have a solid patent application filed, if there's not a path to market for the invention, then it's not going to go anywhere. So having an understanding of the business process for getting the invention to the marketplace is also critical, but patenting is the first step. Other forms of intellectual property are important as well. Some companies may try to keep some types of medical technologies as a trade secret. That doesn't work quite as well in the medical technology field because of all of the regulatory approval that's needed, but there may be certain aspects that are appropriate for secret. And then trademark is also a very important area. And so this kind of goes more into the pharma and biotech we naming and branding is really critical for drugs and therapeutics, but medical devices as well typically are branded. And so understanding trademark law and how that intersects with branding is important.
Eve Albert (09:59):
Now let me ask you this. Did the interest in medicine come first or did the interest in intellectual property come first for you personally?
Jenna Matheny (10:09):
For me personally, it was medicine. I actually had gone to college intending to go to medical school and then I took organic chemistry and my plans changed. And so I had always been interested in the law and I discovered intellectual property law and decided to go to law school with the goal of becoming a patent attorney.
Eve Albert (10:30):
Yeah, my situation is similar. That's actually part of the reason why I started exploring this topic because almost everyone in my family is in medicine and that was kind of the expectation for me as well. And I am very squeamish. I knew I could not do anything in that area, but I do still have a background in that and I do still feel a connection towards it. So I thought that it was something interesting to explore. So I'm glad we're getting to talk about this today. You talked about how the early stages of this entire process sometimes occur within the university space. Through researching this process, I came across something called tech transfer offices, which is what I believe you are working in now.
Jenna Matheny (11:15):
That's why I spent my career up until now. Actually now I'm with a specialty consulting firm, but for the first 16 years of my career I worked in technology transfer offices.
Eve Albert (11:24):
Okay. So for listeners, what are tech transfer offices? What purpose do they serve and what does involvement in them look like?
Jenna Matheny (11:32):
So tech transfer offices are a part of a university or potentially a university system depending on how a university is structured. They also are within research hospitals, research institutions, and national laboratories. They are the unit that is responsible for protecting the intellectual property developed at the institution and then working with companies to develop that intellectual property and products and services that help people. Most technology transfer offices are really focused on impact on getting that intellectual property out there, especially within public universities. The goal is to have publicly funded research, make it out the door in order to benefit society. And so expertise and technology transfer typically involves knowledge of science, of law and of business. And with regard to the law, you typically need to have a basis in intellectual property law as well as business law contracting and occasionally securities law can be very important.
(12:32):
Most of the time people get into technology transfer through an internship, and then full-time positions may start anywhere from a licensing assistant who does a lot of background research and the career progression goes through a lot of different names, but typically licensing manager responsible for a portfolio of technologies, assistant director, director, and then vice president of innovation. My previous institution, I was the director of technology transfer for five and a half years, and then in February of this year I joined AIO IX Innovation Strategies, which is a specialty consulting firm focused on capacity building for technology transfer around the world.
Eve Albert (13:11):
So at aio, do you focus on everything because from what I understood, the boutique consulting firms, would AIO be considered one of those?
Jenna Matheny (13:23):
Yes, definitely.
Eve Albert (13:24):
Okay. So the boutique consulting firms have an emphasis on those business practices and protecting existing inventions. Is that true to what your everyday work looks like?
Jenna Matheny (13:36):
So I focus more on training and capacity building as opposed to working with particular inventions. Most of the time I am working to train other technology transfer professionals working with ecosystems internationally to grow their own technology transfer ecosystem as well as providing training and assistance for universities in the United States.
Eve Albert (14:00):
Interesting. So what I'm getting is there's opportunities in a plethora of things in just this one area of law, which is great to hear. Then the only type of area we have yet to cover incubators and accelerators.
Jenna Matheny (14:15):
Yes.
Eve Albert (14:16):
Would you mind talking about those? I feel more comfortable with the boutique and the tech transfer offices, but I couldn't find a straightforward of information on those. So what can you tell us about those?
Jenna Matheny (14:28):
So incubators and accelerators can be standalone or they can be part of a university or research institution. I actually started my technology transfer career in law school at biotech incubator. So I went to Tulane University Law School in New Orleans and in my third year I was an intern at the New Orleans Bio Innovation Center. And that center was very working with Tulane University, LSU Health Sciences Center and Xavier University, but it was a standalone institution. However, other universities have their own incubators inside and they are typically focused on not just university owned intellectual property, but student created intellectual property as well. You may also have community incubators in those sorts of situations. Most of the time the role for attorneys is on the consulting side in terms of looking at patentability, looking at potential regulatory pathway and providing advice to clients. I'm not aware of an incubator that has necessarily a full-time role for attorneys, but they're great places for internships, especially if you have an incubator associated with your university, with your law school, you can get some kind of hands-on experience providing prior art searches and invention evaluations for companies that want to go into the accelerator.
(15:48):
And then as you are a leader in your career, you may be working at a firm and then you may be providing consulting services to an incubator to advise the resident companies or NASA companies how they might proceed with their innovation
Eve Albert (16:04):
With a wider scope. How do you think this area has changed in your time practicing in it? Because you have a lot of years of expertise, you have a lot of different jobs under your belt. I know that HIPAA probably already existed when you were getting started, but the Affordable Care Act caused a lot of changes in this area. So what is your experience with following the changes in this field and what do you expect with new technology that's coming out?
Jenna Matheny (16:33):
It was actually less the Affordable Care Act and more of the American Events Act. The American Events Act had really significant changes to the ways that universities filed patent applications and also the companies filed patent applications as well as different court cases that have come down along the line that have restricted different aspects of what constitutes patent eligible subject matter. So since I started practicing, the types of software that are patent eligible have become greatly restricted. The types of medical devices that are patent eligible have become greatly restricted. So those sorts of changes in patent law have been much more significant to my career than the America, than the Affordable Care Act. So what you need to be aware of is that it's not just the regulations and these statutes that change, it's also Supreme Court cases that can radically reshape fields of law. What we are seeing is not just a change in what we can file patent applications on, but we're also seeing a change in the way that companies tend to work with universities.
(17:40):
And this has changed even now as we are in a very different funding environment than we were even just last year. Companies in the past had relied on universities to do research and then would be interested in taking a license to intellectual property generated by that research. With the reduction in federal funding that is happening to universities, that's going to look very different. And so that might look more like companies sponsoring research inside of the university or companies partnering with universities at a much earlier stage instead of waiting until a university has created an invention that they might be interested in taking a license to.
Eve Albert (18:18):
Do you think that those restrictions that you mentioned could have any positive implications? Obviously I think the first instinct is that it's a negative thing that less people are going to be spurred on to create and invent, but is there any benefit to restrictions that maybe prevent the market from being flooded with repetitive inventions? What do you think about that?
Jenna Matheny (18:43):
I do think there is a benefit to having patent applications that are more likely to stand up in the future. So a patent is only as good as you can enforce it, and if you are a company and you have either owned or have a license to a patent and you're trying to enforce it, the very first thing that the defendant is going to do is try to invalidate that patent. And so if in the past you may have questionable patent eligible subject matter, but now with the much narrower world of patent eligible subject matter, those patents that have now been issued are more likely to stand up once they get into the enforcement process. Also say that the new, not new anymore, but the new after the American Events Act process of inner parties review in front of the patent office has created a very different world of patent enforcement and it can be cheaper and it can be faster, and it can provide an answer in a much more abbreviated timeframe, such that if you were a company wanting to make sure that your patent is going to stand up to a validity challenge, you can get that answer more quickly and move forward with your development of the technology.
Todd Berger (20:04):
We'll be right back.
Eve Albert (20:13):
Okay. So let's talk practical applications. You talked about how there's an emphasis on science and medicine, there's an emphasis on IP and just the law in general. There's an emphasis on business transactions. What are some important concepts that law students will be better off picking up in law school before they enter this field that will set them up for success in this area of their career?
Jenna Matheny (20:39):
So take broad-based courses, even courses that you may not understand how they might be useful. When I was in law school, I took a securities class and that has actually turned out to be really useful. I also took international taxation, and that has also turned out to be really useful because when you are doing these transactions related to intellectual property, you have these kind of down the line implications that those classes can help you understand. So don't focus too much, but if your law school offers a practical class, a clinic, or even just a practicum, that is a really helpful thing. I took a patent drafting practicum in law school and that was fantastic. My law school did not have an IP clinic, but at my most recent institution, they did have an IP clinic and that was incredibly helpful. Those students were able to get real world experience working with clients on intellectual property matters, which was really useful to them.
(21:45):
I also say look for residencies or internships in your law school. At my previous institution, we started a residency program for law students to come work at the technology transfer office, whether it was during the semester for class credit or over the summer as a paid internship, they were able to come and work with us and get that hands-on experience of not just the subject matter, but really what the day-to-day looks like for a practitioner in that field. Because depending on your environment, the day-to-day is going to look really different. A person in a law firm is going to have a very different life from a person at a company or a university.
Eve Albert (22:22):
I would like to switch to your career before we wrap up. What do you love the most about this area of law, your job, any of the jobs you've had, what's really stuck with you and inspires you to want to come on here and talk about it?
Jenna Matheny (22:39):
So personally, seeing all of the new inventions and innovations that I've worked with over my career has been really exciting. I like to say that I know a very little bit about a lot because I do not have a PhD. I went to law school directly out of undergrad, and so being able to learn about different fields as I work with these new inventions, my career has spanned. I've focused on life sciences, but I've worked with inventions from quantum computing and clean energy to agriculture depending on really what came across my desk. So working with those inventions and getting to know the inventors of those inventions, the faculty members who created those inventions has been really rewarding. And as a trainer, it's really interesting to see people get these concepts. Most of the people that I work with have an invention or at least an idea for an invention that they want to push forward.
(23:34):
And so seeing them learn how they can take that idea and make it a reality and what the steps are, kind of the taking it from the, oh, I think I have a good idea, how can I move forward with this to here are the concrete steps that you need to do to move forward with your idea is really rewarding because it may sound cliche, but I really believe the impact is what we are after here. We're not most tech transfer offices and me as personally not here just to make money, but to see the results of research be translated into something that can actually help people on both the protection side and the commercialization side is really, really rewarding.
Eve Albert (24:16):
That's a great answer. I love that. Do you have anything else? Any other subject matter that we didn't get to talk about that you feel is important for law students to know?
Jenna Matheny (24:26):
The big thing is to make connections. I think that don't underestimate the amount of serendipity that can just change the course of your career. The internship I mentioned before that I got in law school was the result of taking an alternative dispute resolution course and chatting with a classmate about what his plans were for the next semester. And he told me about the internship and it was for multiple students and we both applied, we both got it. And I was floored because at the you expect law students to be cutthroat, not share that sort of information. But at the time it was really amazing because that was the start of me transitioning from, oh, I want to work in a firm and do patent prosecution to oh, here is a whole new world of ways to work with intellectual property that I had not even considered. So make connections, go out, meet people, do networking events and kind of see where things take you because the one conversation can really change the path of your career and can really change what you're interested in.
Eve Albert (25:32):
I think that that's really interesting because when you think about patents, it does seem like a very cutthroat area. There's very specific guidelines and it's very procedural that you have to follow. So I think that it's interesting that on this podcast and in my experience, we have yet to find one area of the law where they're not help other people and pay it forward. So I think that that's always encouraging to hear.
Jenna Matheny (25:59):
Good. The other thing that I think is important to note too is I have mentioned science when we've been talking specifically about medical technologies, but for anyone who's listening who's interested in technology transfer as a career and doesn't have a science background, there are opportunities. More and more universities are thinking about social innovation as a way to create impact. Those types of innovations typically are protected through copyright and trademark. So you don't need a science background. And they are something that are typically have an easier path to be a product that's on the market because they don't involve regulatory approval. So if you are interested and you don't have that science background, do some informational interviews, try to find people who are working in copyright and trademark areas and understand what that type of intellectual property might look like as it relates to innovation, because I think that's something that is a growing area but has not really been discussed very much as a career path.
Eve Albert (26:54):
Yeah, no, I have never even heard of that until just this section or this second. Oh my goodness. Sorry. I've been on campus since 8:00 AM this morning. Can you provide an example of social innovation? What's an example of that?
Jenna Matheny (27:07):
So at my previous institution, we had a startup that was focused on a research based curriculum for sexual assault prevention. And the license to the startup was a copyright and trademark license. It was a license to the copyright in the research-based curriculum that the faculty members had developed as well as a couple of trademarks that were associated with the curriculum. And so that curriculum is licensed through that startup to a number of different universities around the country who provide it as part of their orientation for incoming students to help them learn about how they can be a part of preventing sexual assault on campus. And so that's something that is not hard science, it's not biology or chemistry, but it's research based. It's protected by intellectual property and it's being commercialized with the goal of having a social impact.
Eve Albert (28:01):
So what I'm getting generally from this conversation is think outside the box when you're looking into this area. Contact your university, not just like your law school but the larger university and see if there's any opportunities for residencies or internships and take courses that focus on patents and business transactions and you don't need a science background.
Jenna Matheny (28:27):
Yes, those are all great takeaways.
Eve Albert (28:30):
That's encouraging because I was always really bad at science. I was the guy that they had to monitor, so I didn't drink the stuff out of the beakers. Anyways. Alright, well thank you very much, Jenna. I really enjoyed our conversation. I feel like I know a lot more about this area and I'm excited to look into it a little bit further.
Jenna Matheny (28:51):
Well, I'm happy to be here and it's been great chatting with you.
Todd Berger (28:55):
We'll be right back after this great interview Eve. Really interesting stuff. Thank you. And I want, yeah, it was terrific. I know our listeners are taking the same thing and I know someone else who's taking the same thing, nai. So I wanted to start with you, nai, after listening to the conversation, what did you think? What were your big takeaways?
Nayeli Diaz (29:20):
I thought it was very, very interesting. And first off, the thing that caught my attention was, I think it was Eve and our guest Jenna, talking about having a background and maybe at one point thinking about going to medical school. And as a secondary point, that is one of my favorite things about the law and law school is that unlike the medical field, there is not a regimented path that you have to follow to get here. And so even for someone like me who I didn't know I was going to law school until about when I took the ssat, you don't have to have a certain degree to get here and whatever degree you end up having does serve you in the law in a different way. And I think that's why the law ends of having such a vast variety of ideas and viewpoints because we don't have barriers like that, which I understand why you need them in medical school.
(30:04):
You probably should know a lot about biochemistry and stuff, but I think that it's not just you guys. I'm sure there's lots of people in law, which is why we have a lot of amazing patent attorneys who turn to that. And I think that that's really amazing to take something that at any point in your life you could decide maybe this isn't the path, but you can still, if you love those things, if you love medicine, you can still apply that. And that's precisely, I have a lot of friends who are really interested in patent law and are going to work at patent firms. And the reason why in order to be a patent attorney, you have to take the patent bars because when you're reading these patent applications for these kinds of medical devices that you guys talked about, you need to be able to understand the science.
(30:42):
So unfortunately for me, even though I love IP patents, I can't understand all the biochemistry stuff. So patent law isn't the specific area that I can go into. But I also really liked how she touched on the applicability of it in other areas of law in soft IP and trademarks and copyrights, which I think is something that sometimes gets lost in this discussion is that a lot of the patent people they know when they go into law school, okay, you got the patent background, we're going to do that. But a lot of other people in the soft IP kind of find their way into it. So I did like how she brought that up and saying that patents expire. I don't know the exact timeline, but patents often expire before trademarks do. So if you get really good branding around a certain product, then you can protect that with a trademark for a lot longer. And that's what a lot of companies are turning to now. I think that's something really interesting for people to think about.
Todd Berger (31:29):
True. What did you think? Was there something about the interview that confirmed for you everything you thought before, or is there something that you kind of came away from it and you said, oh, I didn't think about that.
Eve Albert (31:41):
Kind of what Natalie said, Jenna talked about how social innovation is something that you wouldn't really consider when talking about this area of the law, and that's not something I ever considered, but I think that that's really cool, even if all of this sounds interesting, but you have concerns over not having that medical background or not having that medical knowledge, there is still places for you to be able to practice. We talked about thinking outside the box. I think that's always good advice for any area of the law, but I don't know, it's always encouraging when lawyers come on here and tell us that there's opportunities for everyone under the sun.
Todd Berger (32:18):
Yeah, absolutely. I think that was one of the big takeaways for me too is, and as you were both talking made me think about it even more so in a society governed by the rule of law, the law tends to be a part of almost everything. And so we've had many different conversations with guests over the years that are somewhat similar as sort thinking about, I'm really passionate about this particular area, but I'm going to be a lawyer. I have this law degree, and how do I not lose my passion for this other thing that really matters to me? And that's one of the great things about a law degree. We have people who talk about their passion for art and how they're able to use their law degree in art law and people who have a passion for sports. And so they can use their law degree in all of these different ways in the world of sports.
(33:08):
And I think that's one of the really cool things about the practice of law. If you are, I don't want to say I haven't been anything other than a lawyer really, but I imagine the intersection between law and art, you can see whether it's, although the different ways that it can come up from IP or copyright issues to the million of other kinds of issues that artists might have, contracts, labor law or whatever it might be. But if you're a doctor, probably, I don't want to speak for doctors, but I imagine it's a little bit harder to have an intersection of medicine and art. If you went to your doctor and they start talking about art, it's going to be, you're not going to go to that doc. So I think that's one of the cool things about the law degree. It's just not limiting in a lot of ways. Everything that you want to do, or almost everything at least that you want to do, you can find some element of the law that connects to it. And this was just an example of if you take organic chemistry and it doesn't work out
Jenna Matheny (34:10):
And
Todd Berger (34:10):
You're not going to be a doctor, which by the way, I think is one of the most common things I've ever heard. There are so many people who it must just be a part of a bread of passage for people who want to go into medicine is they take organic chemistry and it doesn't work out and they have to find another way to pursue their passion for medicine. But if you're one of those people, it took organic chemistry, it didn't work out, and you still want to be involved in medicine, you have a law degree, you can absolutely do that. I think that this was just, to me another example of how limitless the practice of law can be
Nayeli Diaz (34:40):
If you are one of those people. I really liked that Jenna provided some tangible steps that I had not heard about before. She talks about how companies are partnering with universities and universities have, I can't remember the exact phrasing, if it's think tanks or they have these areas, incubators in which incubators, that's what it was. These universities and accelerators have incubators and accelerators where you can go while you're in law school and work there. And I think that sometimes as law students, most law schools, I'm not positive, but I assume most law schools are on a bigger campus. And so the things that are happening at maybe an undergraduate level or outside of the law school are still things that you can participate in. So that's what it made me think about when she said, look into those other opportunities that might be happening parallel to your law school on campus or something you might not have thought about because they're still going to need you there. And that provides you the opportunity to get more hands-on experience working in those kinds of environments, getting that technological experience, talking to those innovators, those people who are going to be doctors who are maybe potentially going to be your future clients one day and working with them in those environments was really interesting. And something that I hadn't thought about before,
Eve Albert (35:47):
That is actually one of my favorite parts about this podcast. Specifically when we get the takeaway of practical applications too, how you can begin pursuing different career paths. Jenna gave some great advice about going to your university, seeing if they have a tech transfer office, seeing if they have incubators and accelerators, and also what you can do as an individual to stay up to date with the field following the recent cases and keeping in mind what acts are playing a role and what laws are playing a role. So I dunno, I think that that was probably my favorite part of our conversation because it led to me doing some more research about what my school specifically has to offer.
Todd Berger (36:30):
That's great. And I can say the story interview, there are certain things she said that also stood out to me. I never took organic chemistry, so I never had that experience, although I saw that happen to many people. But she talked about just the broad range of classes that she took and that really stood out to me because in law school that knew I wanted to be a trial lawyer, I knew at a certain point I wanted to be a criminal defense attorney, but I ended up taking secured transactions, which from everything I could tell, was largely about how to repossess the law and furniture of people who owed you money. But it was actually kind of a fun class and I learned a lot in there and I took tax. I've never done anything with tax, but I learned a lot and I thought it was really interesting.
(37:12):
I took business associations and I just feel like I know more about how the world works now, and I was exposed to other areas of law that I thought themselves were really interesting. So I think that's one thing students should think about and I took from this interview was law school. Yes, it's vocational and we're trying to give you the education that you need. So you could go be a lawyer in the field you want to be a lawyer in, but it's also an opportunity, one of the few opportunities you'll have left in your life to just learn a tremendous amount and learn more about the world. And you're there to do that, and that's okay, and that's a part of your job. And so I thought it was really great advice. Regardless of what you think you're interested in, you can take these other classes that you might not have thought about and you'll not just learn more about the world, but you might find there's a lot of interest that you have, you didn't even think about know about before.
(38:01):
So you could use law school to just broaden your horizons, generally speaking. The other thing I think I took from that is she talked about serendipity. You know how she does her career change because she just had this random conversation with someone after class. And I thought about that and I thought, yes, that is serendipitous. But I'm also a big believer in that, and I know it's somewhat cliche, but people make their own luck. So yes, there was something very just random about this conversation she had, but her success later was not random. It was because of her talent. It was because of her hard work. And so I think for law students is take advantage of different opportunities because you never know who you're having that conversation with or what networking you're doing. You're going to be presented with opportunities you didn't know existed. But ultimately, at the end of the day, your success is not a question of just luck, a randomness. Your success is a combination of how you worked hard to create those opportunities to find serendipity, and then once you got them, how you maximized your talents and succeeded. So I thought her story about success is probably a very similar story to what a lot of people have.
Nayeli Diaz (39:06):
Yeah, and I really like that part specifically because it's struck a chord with me about something that I think about very often and I feel like I try to champion every day, is that law school obviously has got a kind of stereotypical, cutthroat vibe out in the world, but in my experience, there are few people that are like that. But also I would encourage everyone, whether you're in law school right now or you're going to go to law school, be kind to everyone and share resources because somebody's success will never take away from your success and an opportunity might never have been yours to begin with, and maybe that person getting that opportunity will eventually lead you to an even greater opportunity. I have had my wonderful friends in law squad had one make me aware of this job that was available, which three steps down the road led me to being here today and then another job she offered me.
(39:57):
Now we're both working together and I'm learning from her and we're working together and I've just been so lucky to have such great peers around me and also even I've talked about this, working hard to lift each other up. And so I would just encourage law students to not be afraid of taking chances, not be afraid of talking to people. If you see an opportunity that you think suits one of your classmates, go tell them about it, because I think that we all succeed by helping each other. And a lot of lawyers will tell you in law school, at the end of the day, we're all a big community. Your classmates will one day become your peers, your teachers, your career advisors will become your peers. And that kindness and generosity goes a really long way. And being authentic with it, you don't have to give everybody everything, but just to remember that I don't think that helping others will ever diminish your success because at the end of the day, like Todd said, you get yourself those opportunities. If you are in a room and for whatever reason, you are the best person for it, you're going to get it. And whether it's your classmate who you told about it or some random other person who found the job and applied, I don't think it really makes that big of a difference in the end. So I really liked how she mentioned that one chance of one classmate telling her something led her towards this amazing path, and that is something that is really important to me and I really liked how she talked about that.
Todd Berger (41:19):
Once again, thanks to our guest, Jenna Matheny for joining us for this episode. If you're looking for even more content curated just for you, head over to the ABA Law Student division website and become a member. We want to make sure we are making the best content for you. Let us know what you'd like to learn about by telling us in a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Finally, we'd like to thank our production partners at Moraine Media and to thank the a, a law student division for making this show a reality. You'll be back next month with our next episode. See you then.