Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
More to the Story with Dr. Andy Miller III is a podcast exploring theology in the orthodox Wesleyan tradition. Hear engaging interviews and musings from Dr. Miller each week.
Transcript
Welcome to the more to historic. Podcast I'm so glad that you all have come along. And today we are gonna be talking about 2 very important topics and theology that are often not covered and often not preached on, and I will say that as a preacher I didn't preach on them when I was in a local church as much as I should have.
Andy Miller III: though I did preach a few times on the Ascension. I probably didn't preach enough on the Transfiguration. So I'm looking forward to covering these 2 topics today. But this podcast is brought to you by Wesley Biblical seminary where we are developing trusted leaders for faithful churches, and we do that through a host of programs, from bachelors to master's doctoral degrees, we have a lay initiative called the Wesley Institute. We're really delighted to serve the Global Methodist Church as it is emerging. We've added more than 300 students just in the last year
Andy Miller III: to our student body, and we love the opportunity to serve that church. In addition to dozens of other denominations and people who don't come from a denominational background, but we come it from the broad Wesleyan tradition, value the inerrancy of Scripture and the reality and promise of people. Be be able to experience sanctifying grace in this life
Andy Miller III: also. This podcast comes to you. Because I have a good friend, Bill Roberts, who's a financial planner who comes alongside. People helps them think about their future financial live something that preachers maybe, don't do so well, so you can find out more about him and his ministry at William H. roberts.com. There's a link to him in the show notes, and also I'd love for people to sign up for my email list at Andy Miller, the third.com.
Andy Miller III: That's Andy Miller. iii.com. And if you sign it for my emails I will send you a free tool called 5 steps to deeper teaching and preaching. There's a 45 min teaching session on there as long as, in addition to an 8 page document. Pdf document that you can use in your own study to prepare to preach or teach
Andy Miller III: all right. I am glad to bring into the podcast
Andy Miller III: doctor. Now I can't think of first name, Patrick Schriner. I was thinking of your dad's name and my own bio friend, David Shriner. Say, Patrick Schreiner, who is the a Professor of New Testament and Biblical Theology at Midwestern Baptist Seminary, Patrick Welcome to the Podcast.
Patrick Schreiner: Thanks, Andy. Good to be with you. There's lots of Shriners out there. Don't worry.
Andy Miller III: There you go!
Patrick Schreiner: You can call me whatever you want. I'll be fine.
Andy Miller III: Well, good. I'm just glad that you're here. Glad that it worked out, and and we had kind of a funny thing happen. I saw. Somehow I got confused in a catalog. I thought you had a new book come out on the Ascension. Well, you have the old book on the Ascension and a new book on the Transfiguration, and you sent me your new book on the Transfiguration. So I was confused. I'm just gonna do my best best to cover both. So
Patrick Schreiner: Great.
Andy Miller III: So Patrick, as we're thinking about this. Maybe you could just tell us a little about yourself and your own calling to serve as a scholar, and maybe maybe that will help us understand why you would write on these topics.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah. So I grew up in a Christian home, great Christian home. My dad is a teacher at Southern Baptist school as well. He teaches New Testament.
Patrick Schreiner: And so I actually didn't know growing up, I was gonna fall in his footsteps. But I ended up doing that in college.
Patrick Schreiner: got involved in kind of campus ministry. Campus crusade for Christ, started leading Bible studies, got involved in local church, got really excited kind of about the 9 marks ministry and.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Patrick Schreiner: And influenced by them, and and what they were doing. And so, you know, in college, I just started realizing the Lord was really drawing my heart towards ministry. So I decided to go to School seminary.
Patrick Schreiner: and through kind of the the studies there I realized, man, I have this kind of insatiable interest in reading and writing and learning, and so I honestly didn't know where the Lord was gonna bring me. But as I began to study more and more. I just thought I don't wanna stop. So I went on, and I did a Phd. And then, after my Phd. Honestly, in the middle of my Phd. I wasn't even sure I wanted to teach. I just knew I wanted to keep studying. I that's what I love to do, and I love to think about these things. And so.
Patrick Schreiner: after I was done teaching, I ended up getting a job at Western Seminary in Portland, Oregon.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Patrick Schreiner: It's a nondenominational school, and I taught there for 6 years, and then in 2,020, we moved to Kansas City for me to teach at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, that is in Kansas City, and our family's here, and we are a little closer to home. My parents live in Kentucky. My wife's parents live in Kentucky.
Patrick Schreiner: so we've been here for 4 years. I've always kind of had a foot in the Academy and the local church, so I was a lay pastor in Portland. I'm a lay pastor here, and I get to preach about once a month at our church, or in various churches, and so we at Midwestern. Our tagline is for the Church. We believe that we exist to serve the local church and
Patrick Schreiner: that's really my heartbeat as well, because I like, I said, kind of through 9 marks I was in. I did the internship with Mark Dever, and was influenced by him, and so very much love the local church and think the seminary we really just exist to serve the local church. And so yeah, I I've you know I I write books mainly
Patrick Schreiner: more people in the church that are interested in reading about these type of things. So.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Those that are more interested in theology, so I don't call myself like a scholar scholar in terms of.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Patrick Schreiner: Like. I'm not always advancing the conversation forward at the most nuanced level. But I love to think about theological topics, and and though I I work kind of a New Testament Biblical theology. I. I have this kind of theological side to me. And so, as you can hear even ascension transfiguration. They're very theological topics. And so
Patrick Schreiner: all the books I do certainly revolve around kind of Biblical studies looking at the text. But I'm also always drawing in kind of church history, and how people have thought about this and doctrines from systematics. So that gives you a little bit about.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Sports. I'm a big timberwolves. Fan.
Andy Miller III: Oh, there you go! Bless you!
Patrick Schreiner: Big big chief stand there. Yeah, the 2 rules are played tonight. We hope they win.
Andy Miller III: I don't know when this podcast gonna come out. But we're right to place where he had. You were in this wonderful moment, Patrick, where that you were. You're riding high. It just felt like, Oh.
Patrick Schreiner: Okay.
Andy Miller III: And then you had the chiefs win. And then you had Ann Edwards, and it just felt like, well, we're just gonna take. You're gonna your teams are gonna take over the world. But then.
Patrick Schreiner: Like the Lord was for me. And now.
Andy Miller III: That's right, too. That's right.
Patrick Schreiner: And then, yeah.
Andy Miller III: Focuses come by the time. This podcast airs.
Patrick Schreiner: I know no.
Andy Miller III: What happens, and who knows? Maybe you're maybe your man will come back.
Patrick Schreiner: Listen to this, me and my brother actually went to the game in Minnesota Game 3, where they got demolished by like.
Andy Miller III: Oh no!
Patrick Schreiner: 30 points like we. We traveled for that game. We were so excited about them. But, if you know anything about Minnesota sports, you know this is how it goes. So this is par for the course they get. You really excited, and then they crush all your dreams at the end. So.
Andy Miller III: And have you been a Minnesota fan of other Minnesota teams?
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah. So we grew up in Minnesota.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Patrick Schreiner: Caught at Bethel Seminary.
Andy Miller III: Oh, okay.
Patrick Schreiner: So that's why we were at actually John Piper's church, and we were down the road from the Metrodome, where the twins and the Vikings played so twins, Vikings, timberwolves. And then I've moved around. So I've kind of picked up teams along the way. Trailblazers fan for a while.
Andy Miller III: Oh, every estate.
Patrick Schreiner: Gone to. I kind of pick up different teams. So yeah.
Andy Miller III: So yeah, I I moved around too. So I always would say I would. Do you know, I would become a a fan kind of a tangental fan for the kingdom. Right? It gave me something to talk about with people, but
Patrick Schreiner: I'm a bandwagon cheese, fan, but I live here. Come on.
Andy Miller III: Oh, there you go! There it is!
Patrick Schreiner: Totally worth it, and I need to. You know I I've done my penance, or whatever, for my Minnesota sports. Fandom. I I need my rewards now.
Andy Miller III: Now would you have been alive when the the twins won in the early nineties.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah. 91 I was. I was alive. I wasn't very old.
Andy Miller III: Question, but.
Patrick Schreiner: I was. I was there, and I think I went on game 7, I think. I went to bed. Me and my brother did we watch half the game, but we were too tired, and my dad came and he woke us up, and he goes twins. One world series.
Andy Miller III: Man. Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: So yeah, we we were a little too tired to make it through game 7, cause I think, super late. But yeah.
Andy Miller III: That's fine. So so back back to your your Phd work, did you? W. What did you? What did you study there before you? Were you already working this area? Were you working in ascension or.
Patrick Schreiner: No. What's funny is, I actually got interested in the ascension in my Phd. Work. But my topic wasn't about it. I was working on the kingdom, and Matthew.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah, from a spatial perspective.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Perspective. So I have a book with Lnts library of New Testament studies on that it was published.
Patrick Schreiner: but really the theory that I was using to examine the text
Patrick Schreiner: came from a guy in England who had applied this kind of geographical theory to the text
Patrick Schreiner: in in acts and for the Ascension, basically. And so he he became my external reader, and I read his book on the Ascension. It was a Cambridge University Press book, very scholarly, like $150, right? But I read his book, and I was so impressed with it. And I also thought, Wow.
Patrick Schreiner: I need somebody needs to do more work on the Ascension. This is such a great book. But no, yeah, it's so expensive. And it's very scholarly. Very few people are gonna read this book. And so I actually it. It kind of stayed in the back of my mind at that point that I would love to do more work on the Ascension myself. But you know, life happened. Had kids. I got a job, and it was just kind of there in the back of my mind I wasn't able to do it. And then
Patrick Schreiner: I had a friend reach out to me. They were redoing the Naq series, New American Commentary Series.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Patrick Schreiner: Now been relabeled the Csc Christian Standard Commentary Series. So they used to have these red covers, and now they have these blue covers. But they're reissuing a few of the commentaries, and he asked me if I'd be willing to do acts
Patrick Schreiner: and John Poll did the previous one. It's excellent, and I was doing the new one. So I said, yes to that, and the first thing you run into and acts is the ascension.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.
Patrick Schreiner: And so I was at a local church. I was writing kind of beginning to write about acts, and I thought, Oh, here it is the ascension. I've been wanting to work on this. So I spent a long time thinking about. Then I preached a sermon on it, cause I just was so excited about it. And then I kind of had this small book idea about it. So it was actually an offshoot of kind of my thoughts in the commentary. And I I did kind of a separate book on it. So I had multiple
Patrick Schreiner: kind of books that spun spun out of that commentary. But so it all began. Phd. Work. Then it kind of led down the road to my ax commentary. Then it was a sermon, and I thought, Oh, I want to do this. And then a publisher was talking to me. He goes, do you have any ideas? And I said, Well, I've got an idea for a book on the Ascension, and and then the book came out. So now I've now I have a folder
Patrick Schreiner: on my computer of Ascension sermons, and I think I have 7 to 10 of those now, because I've become the ascension Guy.
Andy Miller III: There you go!
Patrick Schreiner: I preach all ascension Sundays now, and.
Andy Miller III: There you go. It's like, I'm definitely and you, you get a guy in a podcast. Guy, you'll contact you around ascension Sunday. Yeah, yeah, that's right. You're gonna be the ascension guy. Congratulations.
Patrick Schreiner: I am the ascension guy, you know. It's funny, though you write a book about
Patrick Schreiner: like Matthew or acts nobody. Nobody wants to talk to you because it's not specific enough, right? And which is fine. It's fine. But you, you write a book about something like I have a book on Matthew before that, and nobody. Nobody knows what's to ask about that. But you write a book on the Ascension or the Transfiguration. People are like, Oh, I you know.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Else to talk about. So anyways, it's it's been really fun, though I've enjoyed meditating, and I'm still learning. There's more there's more to do. If people are wanting to write books or something. There's more work to be done on this, for sure.
Andy Miller III: Well, no, and I think it's interesting. You you're talking about the this idea a space time and the th. This this connection there in. There's the th things, and so me so much, and Matthew as well, that makes draws me to this. Like, you know. Course it very interesting scenario of like this presentation of what happens with the saints who come.
Patrick Schreiner: After you. Yeah, like a little bit like.
Andy Miller III: What happened, Matthew? 27. So like there's all kinds of things that rattle our modern sensibilities about the nature of space and time. I mean? What'd you call it? Spatial temp? What temporal or what?
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah from for for my dissertation, I did critical spatiality. So maybe it's all inter related, because it is one I mean one of the things I said in the book about the Ascension is, why don't we talk about it? Because those modern, materialistic, naturalistic people, we it. It's hard for us to wrap our mind around Jesus going up into the heavens. What does that mean like physically? What happened when he got out of the atmosphere? You know we.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.
Patrick Schreiner: This very materialistic way. And then where? Where are the heavens? Are they.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.
Patrick Schreiner: Up. And so we we think of those terms. But I I think we need to. You know.
Patrick Schreiner: we need to have a Biblical view of these things. While
Patrick Schreiner: heaven is a local, it also is. It's like our soul. Right? Our soul can be is in one place and not another place. I would.
Patrick Schreiner: For our soul. But it's not a material thing, right? And so I think the heavens somewhat maybe fit that right. It's not a material thing.
Patrick Schreiner: but you can also localize it. And so it goes in that sense. I think it goes beyond our conception of kind of space and time. And so we we should think of the Ascension.
Patrick Schreiner: not purely as this kind of physical thing.
Patrick Schreiner: but we should think of it as symbolic for him ascending to the throne. And when I say symbolic, sometimes people get.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Patrick Schreiner: That. But that, and what I'm not denying is, he didn't ascend into the heavens. What I'm saying is that movement communicated something.
Patrick Schreiner: and he did physically, historically, arise into the heavens like, I affirm that as well, because very clearly, in acts they're he, I mean. Luke records it as a historical event they're watching. They're gazing, the clouds cover him, and he ascends into the sky. But at the same time I think that by the Biblical authors tell us.
Patrick Schreiner: you need to kind of double click on that reality. You need to need to think about what that means.
Patrick Schreiner: And really, what's interesting is, you know the narrative around
Patrick Schreiner: the ascension in in Luke and Ax? It doesn't give us a lot of theology of what's actually happening there. Yeah, to kind of go back to the Old Testament and be like, oh, like this is the enthronement of the King! Oh, this is the father saying, sit at my right hand until.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Patrick Schreiner: All your enemies. Your footstool saw on 1 10
Andy Miller III: The most quoted verse in the New Testament. Right? Yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: This is Psalm 2. Today, like I've become your father. You've become my son. This is he's now gonna rule the nations with an erod of iron. Now that that work isn't complete, it's not consummated. But he has entered into that kingly reign which you mentioned. Matthew, you come to the end of Matthew, and a lot of people are like, well, the Ascension's not there, you know, he's still in the mountain, but he says in the great Commission. All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. I think that's he's looking forward to the Ascension, saying.
Patrick Schreiner: in one sense it's been given to me another sense. It's about to be given to me because
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Matthew's not narrating the ascension. And so
Patrick Schreiner: it's such. Yeah, it's just such an important event for the gospel narrative that we have. I I'm sure you have a lot of questions you could.
Andy Miller III: Yeah. Keep going. Keep going. Yeah. Keep going. Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: But one of the things I just to get people to think about the importance of the extension. I always ask them, How do you summarize Christ's life like if you had 2 min.
Patrick Schreiner: And most people, I think, especially if you're e, or if you're just explaining the gospel, for that matter? Does the ascension matter for the Gospel.
Patrick Schreiner: Times we speak about Christ's life, his birth, his life, his death.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Patrick Schreiner: Hopefully his resurrection, but usually it kind of ends there with.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: But you look at the first sermons and acts, and man, they are talking about him ascending to the heavens, and while I I totally agree. The reason we probably do that is because we kind of take the Ascension and the resurrection as dual sides of the exaltation. The victory of.
Andy Miller III: Nice. Yes.
Patrick Schreiner: That that's true, that's true. But in the Scriptures they also view them as 2 distinct events. And so you, you know you haven't, John Jesus talking to people saying, or to Mary in the garden, don't cling to me because I haven't ascended to the Father yet. In other words.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure. That's the point.
Patrick Schreiner: Event 40 days later that need to have that needs to happen. And so
Patrick Schreiner: the resurrection, what one scholar said it, and I've repeated this many times. But I just love the way, he said. I think it was Murray Harris who said, the resurrection proclaims that Jesus Christ lives in that forever.
Patrick Schreiner: The Ascension proclaims that Jesus reigns in that forever. Amen. And that piece for me was just like light bulb, like, Oh, okay.
Patrick Schreiner: the story's not over. Once he rises from the dead, he has to ascend
Patrick Schreiner: to receive all kingly rule, and we haven't even talked about the priestly side of it, or the prophetic side, which is ideal with the kind of 3 Messianic offices, prophet, priest, and king. In my book
Patrick Schreiner: Hebrews talks about the priestly role. But I'm just focusing on the kingship, but.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Just to emphasize like this story's not over, which is why.
Patrick Schreiner: historically, the Church has, whether you follow the church calendar or not. But they have after Easter. You do have a sentient Sunday that comes right. And for most I'm in the Low Church tradition, right? Most Low Church tradition. They love Easter, and then it's kind of like nothing after that, and.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Patrick Schreiner: No, no, no, wait like
Patrick Schreiner: we have Ascension Sunday coming, which is, it's not like. It's better than Easter or but it's it's a diff. It's a different event, and it tells us something slightly different. And so
Patrick Schreiner: really, my book was just like, Hey, let's put a spotlight on this event. That is the other thing cited in the Apostles Creed.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.
Patrick Schreiner: You send in the head. It's a separate line. It's a separate line from his death.
Andy Miller III: And sit it at the right hand of the father. Yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: And sits at the right hand of the Father. So you have it in the creeds. You have it in the Scriptures. You have it in the church calendar.
Patrick Schreiner: and I think we just often think it. It. It seems to be like a rubber stamp upon something. Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: And so I have all these movies examples, but maybe I'll give you just one. Sorry. I'm very talkative right now, for some reason, but
Andy Miller III: You're great. Thanks. The movie again.
Patrick Schreiner: Example that I always think of is the Lion King
Patrick Schreiner: in the Lion King at the end? Right? Simba goes, and he defeats Scar hopefully. Everyone knows this story. If you know what I'm talking about, right? He defeats Scar. But there's this moment in the movie where that's that's the the bat. It's not over yet. It's for me. That moment is like when Christ defeats sin and death upon the cross, and I would argue in his descent to the dead as well.
Andy Miller III: Yes, Amen.
Patrick Schreiner: But then the the baboon Rafiki.
Patrick Schreiner: he tells Simba to ascend Pride Rock, remember the whole.
Andy Miller III: Start interesting? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lifting them up and.
Patrick Schreiner: Then, and then the whole movie ends. And it's like this slow motion.
Andy Miller III: Oh, man!
Patrick Schreiner: Of him, and what happens when he ascends? When Simba sends Pride Rock, all the animals fall down, they worship him right.
Andy Miller III: Yes, yes, yes.
Patrick Schreiner: And I just I relate that to there's these tropes.
Patrick Schreiner: There's these ideas even in like coronation verse.
Patrick Schreiner: kind of ascension to the throne. So you think about King Charles as well like he was declared to be the next king. But there was a coronation day too.
Andy Miller III: Right, sure, sure.
Patrick Schreiner: Was seated upon the throne.
Patrick Schreiner: And so that's how I like to kind of explain it to people and be like, look we actually have in our mind. That's an idea that you're declared to be the king. But you're not installed as the King.
Andy Miller III: Last month.
Patrick Schreiner: And I think the ascension functions, and that way he is installed as the King.
Patrick Schreiner: So the Cross. I was just looking at John. 19. On the cross. The inscription says, Jesus is the King of the Jews.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: But.
Andy Miller III: Post session. Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: He is the King of the universe. Right?
Andy Miller III: I mean men. Amen.
Patrick Schreiner: So so there is a yeah, there's something there's movement that happens from the cross to the Ascension. So yeah, I I just tell people like, it's such an important event, and we, we would do well to spend more time thinking about it.
Andy Miller III: And I think like when you think about the total, the totality of the gospel as a whole isn't just. And you know we emphasize this in the in the holiness. Tradition like not just having, like our sins, forgiven, but experience sanctifying grace, but at same time like, goes beyond that, too, goes before that, like even Jesus's pre existence, is a part of the story, His incarnation, his life, and then death. And then I love. I'd love to emphasize something I've
Andy Miller III: tried to emphasize as well the the dissent like we we even if we can't.
Andy Miller III: you know, make that as colorful as we. You know, it might actually have been, and like, which is all, all of the story of the the Gospel as a whole, we might not know the details. We have enough in Scripture to to point us the fact that it did happen that there was there was. There was something that happened. We might.
Patrick Schreiner: I agree.
Andy Miller III: Be able to interpret first, Peter 3, to be able to say, alright. He's quoting Enoch here, but he, you know he he was alive in the spirit. But yet he something happened. You know he did. He defeated hell! The the sign of Jonah, the key over victory over death, and Haiti.
Patrick Schreiner: On. Yes.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I mean the key, the keys. Yeah. So all all these things, I think, are within, of course, the resurrection. But it's it's still not over like the culminating, culminating event is the ascension. And and I think, if if it is there where he takes a high priestly position
Andy Miller III: in you, but you keep bring. We keep coming back to Matthew, and he says, I am with you. Well, how is he with us like? How does that happen. You know I'm I know this is kind of like popular line from Martin Luther, but it it seems to connect with people to me, and I'd be glad for you to say. Well, we need a little more nuancing there. He doesn't go from here to there, but he goes from here to everywhere like that's in part like how he's with us. Glad to get your feedback on that like on that cause. I I think
Andy Miller III: I think there's something like, if if Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit, but it's his enthronement at the right hand of the Father, this place, even if the word place is hard to de define in the same way that we might do it in our time.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah, yeah, no, I totally agree. It's it's a bad thing. Don't don't disagree with Luther.
Patrick Schreiner: dead now, but he'll have some line that's really clever. That will smash you right.
Andy Miller III: Okay.
Patrick Schreiner: I totally totally agree with Luther in the sense that I am with you always to the end of the age. Well, how well the rest of the Scriptures identify. It's through the Spirit. I think the spirit of Jesus now comes and dwells within us. And so, as Christ ascends to the Father. John says in in John, Jesus continually says, I won't send the spirit until I've ascended to the Father until I you will not get the help, or the Paraclete, your advocate, until I go to the Father. And I do think
Patrick Schreiner: there's a logic to the Scriptures that it's not until Christ breaks that barrier between heaven and earth
Patrick Schreiner: ascends to the Father, that they then both pour out the spirit. And I think there's actually a bunch of systematic theology categories under that, in terms of even Trinitarian doctrine that support that idea, that the Father and the Son then send the spirit, or I know the and the son is very debased.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: But all that to say. There's something going on there, and as you were speaking about that you know you have these texts like in John, and I forget if it's like John
Patrick Schreiner: 14, where it is. But Jesus says you're going to do even greater works than I did.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, sure.
Patrick Schreiner: And we all look at that. And we're like, Well, what do you mean? Well, the reality is Jesus in his humanity. Now this is, this is key in his humanity was limited. Physically, like all humans are limited physically. And so Jesus went around. He actually traveled a very small space on this earth right in terms of his travels that he made.
Patrick Schreiner: So when Jesus says you will do greater works than than these, you gotta think well, wh. I'm not raising the dead. I'm not making making the lame walk and and making the blind see like, what does that mean? But
Patrick Schreiner: what's actually true, if you look at it more holistically, is that when Jesus ascends now, His presence is with every single believer.
Patrick Schreiner: from Africa to China.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Yes, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: And to Greenland. You know what I mean.
Andy Miller III: Across time and.
Patrick Schreiner: Happening to people. People are being raised to life like they really are. And so when he says, you're going to do greater works than I do
Patrick Schreiner: by the Spirit who is not limited physically like I am in my human nature, right? He's not limited as God, but he's limited in his human nature I will now spend. Send the Spirit who has empowered me to empower all of you to do the works that I did, and that will be spread out, not just over the land of Israel, but over the whole globe. So, rather than thinking of that text which is so confusing to us individualistically like, why am I not doing greater works
Patrick Schreiner: than Jesus?
Patrick Schreiner: I think we should be thinking salvation historically and corporately, like the whole body of Christ. He's the head. Yeah. Sure body are doing in one sense greater or more works than Jesus because Jesus lived. You can also think of a temporary and, like Jesus, lived for 30 years 30 right? And so.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Or 33 years, so you he only had so much time to do something. But now the church has existed for 2,000 plus years, and has been.
Patrick Schreiner: whether you believe in the continual raising people from the dead, spiritually, physically, so forth, and so on. And so these things still do happen. And so yes, as Jesus ascends to the Father, I think. One of the things I kept thinking about with the Ascension is one of the other reasons we don't think about it is because it seems like a really bad plan. We want to be with Jesus, physically, bodily, with him like that's what we long for.
Patrick Schreiner: So when Jesus leaves, we think.
Patrick Schreiner: Well, that's not a good idea.
Patrick Schreiner: like Wise, and I think the disciples struggled with that a little bit as well. Right? They're like, Hey, are you gonna restore the kingdom at this time after the resurrection? He's like, no, no, no, something else has to happen, I need to ascend to the Father.
Patrick Schreiner: So what we think it'd be. It's better if we're with Jesus.
Patrick Schreiner: and it's it's true in one sense. But Jesus says, and, John, it's better if I go, because if I go I will send you the spirit, and I think that's really hard for us to wrap our minds around, especially as you think like man. I so wish, and I think we all wish this, that we could walk and talk with Jesus, like the disciples, did we wish we could be with him, and that is a good desire, and we will have that desire
Patrick Schreiner: fulfilled in the last day, but he says for the time being, it's better that you have the spirit. And so I just want to press on people and say, Do you actually think it's better that he's.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, exactly.
Patrick Schreiner: You have the spirit. So, in other words, like, I think the logic of the Scriptures is, we live
Patrick Schreiner: in a more privileged time than the disciples who walked Jesus, which is
Patrick Schreiner: you're if you're like watching the chosen or something you're like. No way. There's no way
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: I'd way rather be with Him. And you're Jesus just contradicts us on that. He just says, No, you live at the better time, because you can reflect back on these things.
Patrick Schreiner: and you look forward to that time where you will be with me forever. And so that's always, I mean, I always mention that that's still a challenge for me.
Andy Miller III: Right.
Patrick Schreiner: Because I think it's the desire to be with him, physically and bodily, is so ingrained and true.
Patrick Schreiner: But I I just don't think we understand that the disciples, like they, were still confused about so much right. And we we have the privilege of just looking back on all these events and all these things. And and I think, having in one sense more clarity. Obviously we needed to find what that clarity means. But in one sense we have more clarity now.
Andy Miller III: No. And and you think about beginning of of Pete first, Peter, talking about how like people long to be in a place to see the things that we're seeing, and you know we might even look at our time and say, Well, you know, with the way. Truth is, you know, misunderstood or true. Even the existence of truth is questioned. Even we think about the sexual revolution and the way it's impacting us like I'd rather not live at this time, but this is a good time. This is. This is a time
Andy Miller III: because of where Jesus is now. What do you think Patrick does? Hopefully, I'm setting up for this. Does Jesus still have a body.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah, yes.
Patrick Schreiner: Has the body. Yeah. I think a lot of times we do think Jesus ascended to the heavens. And then, like, he goes back to being like a spirit or something like that.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: The Incarnation the Son of God, right united Himself to human flesh forever. Now, what's the nature of that body? That's the harder question to answer right? Because I think at this point he has a first Corinthians, 15. Body. If you, if you go to that text that talks about bodies of the earth and bodies of heaven. And so yes, he has a body. One author I loved. How, he said, he said. The dust of earth sits on the throne room of heaven. Other words, Jesus is.
Andy Miller III: No.
Patrick Schreiner: Right from walking around, but he brought that dust up to the heavens. And so I love that just kind of visceral visceral image, and I think it's super important to affirm that Jesus still has a body, because it affirms the goodness of embodiment and the reality that we will all, in the final state, be embodied as well, we will.
Andy Miller III: Amen!
Patrick Schreiner: Our new, our new bodies. And so, yeah, Jesus, going to the heavens doesn't mean he just changed into a new being. I do. Yeah, this kind of goes into the Transfiguration a little bit. But I have started wondering. So this is just something to chew on.
Patrick Schreiner: When did Christ receive.
Patrick Schreiner: and maybe maybe I'm out of bounds here. Maybe my system anthology friends need to help me out a little bit here, but I have begun to wonder? When did Christ receive
Patrick Schreiner: His glorified body?
Andy Miller III: The man.
Patrick Schreiner: Always thought it was at the Resurrection, did that.
Patrick Schreiner: Percent yeah.
Andy Miller III: Just in.
Patrick Schreiner: But what's interesting to me. And this is where we're kind of tipping in the Transfiguration, the Transfiguration. He's he's shining with light.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Patrick Schreiner: And in Revelation one. When John sees him he's shining with light. His face is like the sun, and when Steven sees him, it seems, or actually, Paul, when he sees on the Damascus road bright light. But when the disciples see him
Patrick Schreiner: after he's raised from the dead, they don't describe him as kind of having this Doxa glorified body.
Patrick Schreiner: Now they can't recognize him. Luke. 24. Something weird is happening like he's we've everyone.
Andy Miller III: The angels have light on them. The angels are bright. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Like, yes, yeah. He walks through walls and doors, and he eats fish. So you have all that stuff.
Patrick Schreiner: But I wonder if first Corinthians 15,
Patrick Schreiner: and the image of the Transfiguration.
Patrick Schreiner: that we might have a sense in which
Patrick Schreiner: he maybe he received the glorified body and the resurrection. But he veiled that for a time, because if we would have seen that, or humans would have seen that they would have died. Because that's what you see in revelation. That's what you see in.
Andy Miller III: The team.
Patrick Schreiner: Fall down, you die, or the other possibility is that he received the resurrected body in one sense at the Ascension, as the.
Patrick Schreiner: And heavens! That's that's why he doesn't need a spacesuit if we want to get married. Really, material.
Andy Miller III: Oh, there you go!
Patrick Schreiner: But that
Andy Miller III: All this? Just so you can explain that problem. Yeah, yeah, that's good.
Patrick Schreiner: it's not either way. It's just kind of an interesting thing to think about. But the reality is, he still has a body, and now that he's the first fruits, bodies that we will receive in the new heavens and new earth, so.
Andy Miller III: Imagine, even at Midwestern Baptist or the Baptist Church you serve. You might even sing one Charles Wesley song. You might even Christ the Lord has risen a day, you know, which has the great line made like him like him, we
Andy Miller III: zip away into some
Andy Miller III: Platonic state. No like made like him. Like him. We rise like this is like a key understanding like well, whatever that is, and you know it. One of the hard things that when we peach on heaven to think, okay, well, we walk through walls. 8 fish, we we have these recognizable sometimes, but not always. This is a tough thing to be able to describe. But it's something
Andy Miller III: far better. And then also, if Jesus has ascended in his high priestly, kingly
Andy Miller III: position, and then this is probably second Corinthians 5, 8. When we think of to be absent with the bodies present with the Lord. I don't know what that means, for our souls like our non material, whatever like.
Andy Miller III: I don't need have to use the word soul. It's Biblical word seems to work for me. But whatever whatever is us that is, with him is with his body, and whatever that body is.
Patrick Schreiner: That's right. When you said Charles Wesley, I actually thought you were gonna go to
Patrick Schreiner: Arise, my soul arise because, yeah.
Andy Miller III: Do, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: That's another ascension. Actually, I love that hymn.
Andy Miller III: Do you all sing that too? Do you sing that one.
Patrick Schreiner: We. I don't know how much we sing that, but I've sung it in the past a lot.
Andy Miller III: There you go. Okay, good but.
Patrick Schreiner: If you think I had to pull up the words, but before the throne my shirty stands before the throne, my shirty stands. My name is written on his hands.
Andy Miller III: Yes.
Patrick Schreiner: He never he ever lives above for me to intercede. That's what he's doing in the heavens. Right intercede that he says Hebrews says Romans. Says first John, his precious blood, to plead, I love this 5 bleeding wounds he bears received on Calvary. So at this is the other part that's so exciting to me about the Ascension is if you go back to Leviticus.
Patrick Schreiner: and you think about the process of a priest
Patrick Schreiner: making a sacrifice, or, as Leviticus 16 says, atonement.
Patrick Schreiner: it's it. A lot of times we think of atonement as a point like it. It only occurred on the cross.
Andy Miller III: And I think.
Patrick Schreiner: What's so interesting about the Ascension is the Ascension? Actually, if you, if you take Leviticus 16 and the Ascension, and how the Temple functioned.
Patrick Schreiner: and how a priest function. You take all that together. The atonement begins to span, and we you have to understand this rightly. Not that there's another sacrifice. But the process of atonement as a united event spans from Calvary to the Ascension.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: I think Charles Wesley is actually getting at this meeting wounds he bears. He's presenting his blood as a priest would.
Andy Miller III: Before the.
Patrick Schreiner: Father, like a priest, would come, that the the sacrifice for a priest would take place outside on the altar. It wouldn't take place in the Holy of holies, he would bring that blood, the priest would, into the holy of holies, and then sprinkle it upon the mercy seat.
Patrick Schreiner: And that's the image I think that Hebrews is actually using and saying, when Jesus goes, he's interceding, and he's presenting his. But he's not sacrificing himself again. Right? That's that's what we don't want to say.
Patrick Schreiner: But what he's doing is he's presenting that blood, and the father is looking at that blood. Whether that's metaphorical or physical whatever. That is right. He's looking at that blood, and it's because of that blood, that intercession it it works every time every time the son intercedes for his children. The Father listens because
Patrick Schreiner: his blood is on on his hands, just like the whole the high priest would come, and so in that sense. Jesus is not only the King, but he's our high priest who's scattering the heavens with his own blood, and Hebrew says, that's much better blood than the blood of bowls and goats.
Andy Miller III: Right, right.
Patrick Schreiner: He's scattering with his own blood, and he's saying, What what does Charles Wesley say? Forgive him! Oh, forgive! They cry, nor let that ransom sinner die. One of the best things about the Ascension is that Jesus Christ is praying for us.
Andy Miller III: Amen. Amen. Yes.
Patrick Schreiner: Seating for us.
Patrick Schreiner: and
Patrick Schreiner: he's our brother in heaven who goes before the Father like the high priest does, and he represents us. And so this is why Ephesians can say
Patrick Schreiner: not not only has Christ been raised, but you've been raised with Him. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Right raised together with Christ. Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: You're what seated with him in the heavens, and I'm like, no, I'm not.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: I'm down here. What are you talking about? But if I'm united to Christ, and he's the head, and I'm the body, I am where the head is, and the head is in the heavens, and so I am with him in the heavens, in in probably a more real sense than I'm here, which is reversal for how we think of it. But, man, that is such.
Patrick Schreiner: when, whenever I get down, that is one of the most comforting, the intercession.
Andy Miller III: And prayers, of.
Patrick Schreiner: Christ on our behalf seems to be one of the most comforting things, and I've preached multiple times on that. And I think we forget right to talk about that, that Christ
Patrick Schreiner: Christ Christ work didn't cease after the Ascension.
Patrick Schreiner: It actually kicked into a higher gear.
Andy Miller III: That's right.
Patrick Schreiner: Right? Yeah.
Andy Miller III: It is a.
Patrick Schreiner: So he's reigning in a more unique sense now in the heavens. He's our priest in the heavens, and he's our prophet in the heavens! Who's building his church, and really
Patrick Schreiner: my outline for the book, I think, came from it might have even been the Westminster Confession Confession of Faith, where it talks about like what is, what is Christ doing? It's like, well, he's building his church. He's interseting to heaven, and he's raining in the heavens. It's like, Oh, that is like that. That's exactly what the Ascension tells us in terms of what is he doing now? Because we do?
Patrick Schreiner: I think we kind of think like, Okay, Christ did His work on the earth. And then he stopped. And now he's twiddling his thumbs in the heavens, waiting for this thing to get over. No, he's still active. He's still working, and that that's
Patrick Schreiner: I think that's a huge comfort for us.
Andy Miller III: Even when I don't feel it, you're working there you go.
Patrick Schreiner: Is that Charles Wesley.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, that's another problem, Wesley. A very, very sophisticated hip. Okay, it will wait. So 1 10. This is interesting, like, so most quoted verse in New Testament. But it's so, it's confusing. It's confusing me it like just grammatically the way, though, I'm gonna read it here. This this happens to be in the place where Peter quotes it on the on the day of Pentecost.
Andy Miller III: For David did not ascend to heaven. And yet, he said, and then here's a quote, the Lord said to my lord, sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a foot stool for your feet. Now you. Now there's some textual variance there. You might you you might translate differently. But what's going on in that verse, and why is it so important to New Testament theology?
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah. And Jesus uses that to kind of stump people to say like, Hey, you think I'm just a human figure. But who is David talking about here when he says the Lord says to my lord, who is, how is Yawway speaking to David's Lord, and so he's
Patrick Schreiner: he's identifying himself as the Lord right. The Yahweh is speaking to Jesus Christ. Right? So this is. This is what where I said like in acts. What's so cool is in acts. You kind of get this earthly view right of what's happening. So you it from the perspective, you're thinking of it like a movie from the perspective of the disciples. You look up into the heavens
Patrick Schreiner: and and you watch Christ ascend from the earth to the heavens. But once the clouds cover them, you're kinda like, well, what what happened after that? We don't. We don't get to see that. And what's so strange about the Bible is you have to go backwards in your Bible to hear what happened rather than forward right.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, interesting, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: You go backwards in your Bible, and you actually hear.
Patrick Schreiner: I think these are the words in one sense.
Patrick Schreiner: that the father says to the Son, both at the resurrection and at the Ascension. That's how these 2 are linked together.
Patrick Schreiner: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. And so you start to say, Okay, so what does that mean? Well, it means that he's saying you have accomplished all now upon the earth. Now you to sit is to reign. It's not to take a break right? It's to rain in the heavens. This is the session right of Christ. He he sits, sitteth in the heavens.
Patrick Schreiner: and and it's not completely over until I make all your enemies your footstool. In other words, this, this, this event, this new era. It's it's there's going to be a consummation to it. And so this verse is used, and he's saying, Look, David, he died, and he didn't send to the heavens.
Patrick Schreiner: But there is someone who we watched we witnessed. We watched him ascend to the heavens, and we saw his kingly enthronement, and that's why he is. I mean, this is x. 2, 36. I think it is. Therefore he is Lord and Messiah. This this is
Patrick Schreiner: so. It's Jesus is. If you go back to that sermon, it's Jesus's life, his death, His resurrection, and his ascension that proves but he actually ends on the ascension, and says, therefore he is Lord and Messiah, and when you think Lord and Messiah, he's the anointed one Lord, he's the Master, he's the Ruler of the whole universe.
Patrick Schreiner: and so what I love about Psalm 111 is that it? You kind of hear the words that the father says, do the son in that moment, and if you keep going down Psalm 110, verse 4, the Lord is sworn his mind you will not change his mind. Right you are a priest forever after the order of milk. Is that so? On 110 is bringing together these kingly and these priestly ideas which Hebrews is gonna pick up on. And so the Lord is at our right hand. He he's at the Lord's right hand.
Patrick Schreiner: and he's functioning as that king and that priest so already already in the Old Testament, you have the kingship and the priesthood of Jesus. That's kind of already being kind of brought together in our minds. And so, as Jesus ascends, we should be thinking about that.
Andy Miller III: Now you also say it brings in the prophetic dimensions, too. And that's I. I hadn't thought of that, and sadly Lexan was sending me your book, but I didn't get it in time for this interview. So
Andy Miller III: I'm curious what that might mean.
Andy Miller III: Hmm.
Andy Miller III: okay.
Andy Miller III: all right.
Andy Miller III: And in 3, 2, one.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah. The prophetic office of Jesus is a little bit harder for us, and then we kind of already spoke about it earlier, because what prophets are gonna do is they're gonna proclaim the Word of God. They're gonna perform signs and wonders. And the biggest part is they're gonna be empowered with the Spirit. And so, as we already talked about, when Jesus sends
Patrick Schreiner: before the Father, then they send the Spirit, and the Spirit is going to build the church. And now the Spirit works in a unique way in all of God's people. That's the new covenant promise. And so Jesus not only functions as a priest who inner seeds.
Patrick Schreiner: but he functions as a prophet who builds his church by the Spirit, empowering people to do what and acts they proclaim what God's word it. It affects their tongues. That's what happens when the Spirit comes. It loosens their tongues to speak of what God has done, and not only that the Spirit empowers people to do signs and wonders and miracles. And so Jesus continues to work by His Spirit on the earth
Patrick Schreiner: through His Church, to build his church right, or through his people, to build his church. And so you have the
Patrick Schreiner: priestly office where he intercedes. You have the kingly office where he reigns, and the prophetic office, where he continues to build up God's people and grow his body.
Andy Miller III: So it that happens in part by his work.
Andy Miller III: and and then and then through the church in the world. At this point, like.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah, there's a there's a link there, and that's where that one's a little harder to conceive of, because you, what you have to do is you have to have good Trinitarian doctrine, where the spirit of Christ and Christ Himself are one. So Christ continues to work both in the heavens, but both, and on the earth through His Spirit, because I I do think we live in the age of the Spirit. Now the Spirit is now here with us.
Patrick Schreiner: And so in that sense, Price continues to work in his ascended state through the spirit and through the Church. So it's through means, yeah, certainly.
Andy Miller III: I think, when the hardest things and this might be a way to transition, to talk a bit about the transfiguration that we probably won't get as long one of the hardest, hardest parts about the Ascension and the Transfiguration is the the very issue you've worked through, probably across your academic career, and like in trying to serve the church, is thinking about where this is. Is this some sort of quantum state, you know, like a a I don't mind. I don't mind thinking of it. So there, but some other
Andy Miller III: aspect location of reality. You you think like, okay? Well, maybe heaven isn't just a place, though I don't mind using the language place at the same time like could, because it is definite and but I struggle with the spatiality of of both is, is that what? How do you work through that.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah. And I think we we maybe talk touch on this briefly, I don't know if I have a lot more to say on. Besides the reality that you know we we think
Patrick Schreiner: we do tend to think so physically, and I do affirm Jesus still has a body, but we think of a place as it must be this one thing, and it must be contained in this one space. We think of time in a similar sense, and you just have to know, like Jesus Christ, God, the Father, God, the Spirit. They created
Patrick Schreiner: time and space. So it's not like they're they have to submit to these realities like we do as creatures.
Patrick Schreiner: but rather they are above them. So we we have to transcend our idea of of kind, of space, place, and even time, as we begin to think about like where God resides. Where is he now? He's above time, and he's above space, and I don't mean space like the outer space. I just mean above that concept of what it is for us who re literally only know existence under those
Patrick Schreiner: we could say, Powers, under those realities.
Patrick Schreiner: It's so hard for us to conceive of that. But I do think
Patrick Schreiner: we need to. The the. It's almost. It's I'm trying to think it's so hard to explain, but it's almost like when the Scriptures describe God as having an arm.
Andy Miller III: Yes, it's like, we know.
Patrick Schreiner: No, he doesn't have an arm, but there's no other way for him to communicate to us about his strength, or something like that, or, you know, like in Daniel I I just preach Ascension Sunday on Daniel 7, and it's like the Ancient of Days has white hair, and I was like explain like he's not an old man like that's not who he is. This is a symbol for something else. So in the same way, heaven is is a. It's a it's a place. Yes, because Jesus is there.
Patrick Schreiner: But it's also it's it's it's also a symbol of something. Right? It's it's something else. It goes beyond our conception of place. Which is the same thing I'd say about when we we reference the realm of the dead and the descent to the dead Hades. If you dig down really far, are you gonna find that? Because that's how they describe it's like in the underworld. It's it's
Patrick Schreiner: it's it's it's describing something that's real. But you can't dig to it, nor can you fly up super high and find the heavens. And so the Biblical authors. We we need to be sympathetic to like their world view, which is
Patrick Schreiner: some sometimes so hard for us moderns to think through is that
Patrick Schreiner: they're saying these places are are real.
Patrick Schreiner: and they communicate something, but they might not be
Patrick Schreiner: in the same materialistic way that we think of real, because we think only it's only real if I can touch it, and and and make it feel something, or see it, or smell it. And and I think God tells us. No, no, no, I mean, even with Nicodemus like you need to be born again. He's like, what are you talking about? I can't be born again. He's like you're thinking to literally. I'm talking spiritually. So in one sense, I'm all for, like the embodiment, the kind of concrete nature of the new heavens and new earth. I'm all about that. But I actually think.
Patrick Schreiner: as I've been studying what we could call these more mystical events, that we might need to recover this idea of spirituality, and then
Patrick Schreiner: the spiritual nature of things, according to the Scriptures, is more, are more real in one sense, than the physical. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, interesting.
Patrick Schreiner: And and I wanna be careful with how I say that because crisis.
Andy Miller III: The Cs. Lewis idea you've never seen a person.
Patrick Schreiner: Cs. Lewis. He gets it. He totally gets it, because, you know, in the great divorce one of the examples at least, I remember I read it a while ago, but when he gets up there he's like the grass is like it cuts your foot because it's it's so real right. Not in a bad sense. It's like you've never seen grass before, because this is the true essence of grass.
Andy Miller III: That's right.
Patrick Schreiner: What he's trying to get across is like, it's it's physical, it's in body. But it like this is
Patrick Schreiner: this is Hebrews language. What we see is just a shadow. I'm looking at a grass in our yard right now, thinking about it like this is a shadow of the true reality, and if you read even like the Space Trilogy.
Patrick Schreiner: once you kind of see into the heavens he sees like these beans that are
Patrick Schreiner: It's like he can't describe them, but he's like it's more real than anything I've ever seen.
Andy Miller III: And I so.
Patrick Schreiner: Humanity is more real than I've ever seen it, and we think that that must be only physical. But I just think the Biblical authors are trying to get us into this worldview
Patrick Schreiner: that challenges kind of our modernistic mindset. So that's a long, probably complicated answer to like what.
Andy Miller III: Oh, it's good. I appreciate your willingness to embrace it. And you know, thinking you know, int right talks about the resurrected body being trans physical. I think it's like it helped us move beyond that.
Patrick Schreiner: That's good.
Andy Miller III: How, how, when we move back to the to Transfiguration, we may just a little bit here. W. What's what's appealing to you about this? And why? What? What kind of pastoral value does this have? And we're thinking about this, these saints coming, the the prophet, some priests coming and being present.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: The in the world with Jesus, declaring Him in a unique way, this is my beloved son. Listen to Him. I mean, we think through a crystallological lens what this says about Jesus, but it also says something, too, about this mystical reality, beyond our understanding of space and time.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah, yeah, there's so much I could say, maybe.
Andy Miller III: I don't think.
Patrick Schreiner: Things I'll say about the transfiguration that are encouraging. Number one. I think the Transfiguration is this event where you see Christ is not just what I call the Messianic Son, but the Eternal Son.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: So as he shines with light, that light comes from the essence of who he is. So if you're following the narrative of the gospel. Peter has confessed that Jesus is the Messiah.
Patrick Schreiner: but here I think we see he's more than the Messiah.
Patrick Schreiner: He's truly the Son of God, and what I mean by Son of God, is not just. The psalm. 2. King of Israel.
Patrick Schreiner: I mean the Son of God is the second person of the Trinity, and honestly, for, like synoptic gospel scholars, this is like, you never touch this, and you can touch in, John. You can't do it in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
Patrick Schreiner: if you're if you're speaking the scholarly world.
Patrick Schreiner: But here's where I want to challenge all that. The transfiguration is event, that if you read it carefully, it's.
Patrick Schreiner: I think it's clearly saying. And all the church fathers say.
Patrick Schreiner: Okay, there's something more about this figure, because if you read through the Bible.
Patrick Schreiner: God is consistently portrayed as fire and light.
Patrick Schreiner: Suddenly you have this figure who just shines from his essence as light. And you're like, who is this? And then
Patrick Schreiner: the voice says, this is my beloved son.
Patrick Schreiner: and you're like, Oh, well, what type of son? And he's like.
Patrick Schreiner: I think the rest of the Scriptures explain. Oh, he's the eternal Son of God. He wasn't created. He's not like the light that we created
Patrick Schreiner: in Genesis. This is uncreated light. This is the light that came before light right.
Andy Miller III: This is this.
Patrick Schreiner: Is first, John, 1, 5. God is light. You know what I mean. This is.
Andy Miller III: Name.
Patrick Schreiner: This is going back to like. We see light, which is a shadow of just God's light, which is why, in revelation it says, there's not going to be the sun cause Jesus is going to be there like, you don't need the sun anymore
Patrick Schreiner: because he is light.
Patrick Schreiner: So so it's just encouraging in terms of the identity of Christ. The second thing I'd say, it's encouraging in terms of the narrative flow of the Transfiguration is that Jesus has just predicted that he's going to go to his death. He's going to go to the Cross.
Patrick Schreiner: and Peter's like, no, no way, the Messiah will never do this. No, this isn't gonna happen. And basically, I think the Transfiguration says, Okay, guys.
Patrick Schreiner: I want to show you something. 3 of you
Patrick Schreiner: that suffering and death and darkness is not the end of the road, the end of the door, the end of the road is glory and light and happiness and joy, and
Patrick Schreiner: in the presence of the Lord forever. So he gives him a glimpse. He gives him a little picture of the future, which is why the Transfiguration.
Patrick Schreiner: It's hard for us, because it's like, Wait. He got bright and shiny, and then he goes back to being normal, like what's going on here.
Patrick Schreiner: But what he's doing is he's fast forwarding the narrative. He's saying, this is what's coming. But you got to wait because I first. The only way to get there
Patrick Schreiner: is through the cross.
Patrick Schreiner: because I I have to suffer, and then I'll receive glory. So in the Ascension. Actually, you're seeing him receive that glory.
Patrick Schreiner: and then I think he does look like the Transfiguration right. He receives that glory, and he shines with the light. That light was always his, his.
Patrick Schreiner: But also the Transfiguration shows that light is given to him as the Messianic Son, because he accomplished everything.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah. And so ultimately it's it's a
Patrick Schreiner: You know. This is how Paul uses in Second Corinthians 3.
Patrick Schreiner: It's showing us that this light and momentary affliction is not worth being compared to the eternal weight of glory that is going to be ours. Amen. And Jesus is saying in the Transfiguration he's showing us through a picture.
Patrick Schreiner: Here's the eternal weight of glory that's coming for you.
Patrick Schreiner: and here's the eternal weight of glory that's coming from me.
Patrick Schreiner: But the only way to get there is to take up the cross and follow Jesus. And so well, I pastorally, I feel like that's such an encouragement as people are suffering is. People are going through it. They're like.
Patrick Schreiner: this is just the doctrine of glorification, isn't it.
Patrick Schreiner: State, we will be glorified.
Patrick Schreiner: But the only way to get there is to humble ourselves under the mighty hand of God, and He will exalt us.
Andy Miller III: I mean, when we come after me, let them take the same, deny themselves, take up their car. The word transfigure! Help me with that like, go ahead.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: So metamorpho or metamorphosis is kind of the transliterated form. It only occurs 4 times in the New Testament. I don't think it occurs in the Lxx. The Greek Old Testament at all, if I'm remembering correctly, actually, so it occurs in Matthew and Mark. It doesn't occur in Luke. He doesn't use that term, and then it also occurs
Patrick Schreiner: in segregates 3 in Romans 12, which which we usually translate as a transform, be transformed by the renewing of your mind. That's the same word as be transfigured. So typically
Patrick Schreiner: English translations based on Tyndale have translated that term for us is transformed, for Jesus has transfigured.
Andy Miller III: When the.
Patrick Schreiner: Background behind that term, though the background is actually like Greco, Roman myth, stories of the gods who would transform themselves, like Zeus, would into an eagle or into another sort of being, a human being, and come down to humanity, or it would be used a a of as a Caesar would be transformed as they ascended to the right hand of the father. Or I'm sorry, not sorry, hand of the Father just to the gods.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: And so really, the background to this is either gods that show themselves in human form, or humans that transform into a sort of godlike state.
Patrick Schreiner: So that's the background. So I think actually, Luke is avoiding that term because he doesn't want to associate Jesus with those kind of myths, those Creek myths.
Patrick Schreiner: But Matthew
Patrick Schreiner: and Mark use that term, because maybe they're saying, you know what these things are not true, but every culture has a story of kind of this kind of transformation, and I think it speaks both to the Incarnation and the exaltation
Patrick Schreiner: of the Son of God, and so they say, he was transformed. So I didn't. That's a long answer, too.
Andy Miller III: It's quite looking for. Yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: It just means your physical being is changed.
Patrick Schreiner: Jesus's physical being. So what does the first Corinthians? 15 glorified body, looks like? Look like
Patrick Schreiner: what is? If you believe it happened at the resurrection.
Patrick Schreiner: What does that look like when he be when he becomes glorified? The Transfiguration? That's where it shows us that's our clearest, the clearest picture. I think it's kind of fun to think about.
Andy Miller III: Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Of glorified humanity is in the transfiguration. You're like, well, it's not very clear. Yeah, there's mystery to it, because.
Andy Miller III: Zack!
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah, bright and shiny clothes.
Patrick Schreiner: bright and shiny face, the sun. It's not like this, I think it actually occurred at night. So it's not like the sun shining. Because Luke says the disciples were in a deep sleep.
Patrick Schreiner: and so that seems to be a nighttime scene unless they take really heavy naps sometimes. Maybe that's possible. But.
Andy Miller III: And they and they can't stand it. They want. They wanna put yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Yup they want, and I and Peter wants to build tents right? And then Moses and Elijah show up with them. But yeah, that's that's kind of what's behind that term transfigured that it we. And then what Paul says is, we will all be transfigured. We will risk we will, as we're in Christ. We will then, I mean, Matthew says, and this comes from Daniel. We will shine like the stars of heaven. Well, what does that mean? Oh, yeah, this is transfiguration. That's exactly what it means, you know.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, I was, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Revelation. White robes. Oh, what do you mean? They're good. Well, they're gonna shine. And we're gonna shine.
Patrick Schreiner: So that's that's glorified humanity.
Andy Miller III: I love it, this so helpful? That when when you think about the distinction that Matthew and Mark use it now, not a New Testament scholar. But I I'll when I preach, and I describe the differences, say, like in the resurrection narratives. Why is that Matthew has a
Andy Miller III: earthquake, you know well, it's it dramatic. He like. I think he he likes dramatic things that do things in vibrant way. Why is it that he has? I keep on bringing up Matthew. 27. Why, the saints come, and like th, it's a dramatic portrayal of the events and Jesus, and so like that I would assume that that might be a part of difference. What is it?
Andy Miller III: Okay? Forgive me when Luke is what what other differences are there in Luke's does with the transfiguration.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah, I probably can't remember.
Andy Miller III: It's okay. Yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: I'll I'll talk about my head. But you know, he says this face was altered rather than trans transfigured, transformed Luke emphasizes prayer that it was while Jesus was praying that he was transfigured. So Luke has this strong emphasis on prayer. Famously Mark puts Elijah before Moses, and I think Matthew and Matthew and Luke put Moses before Elijah.
Patrick Schreiner: or maybe it's just Matthew who puts Moses before Lijo, but he has. Matthew has strong kind of Mosaic traditions also. Now I'm remembering.
Andy Miller III: Going up a mountain as well, yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, yeah.
Patrick Schreiner: In Luke you have a different saying. I think, he says in Luke.
Patrick Schreiner: that he this is my chosen one as well. This is my beloved son, the chosen one, and.
Andy Miller III: Okay, interesting.
Patrick Schreiner: And so he's just pulling on some different kind of Old Testament traditions there.
Patrick Schreiner: So there's a lot of.
Andy Miller III: Pracine.
Patrick Schreiner: Lot of.
Andy Miller III: Minor.
Patrick Schreiner: Differences, but.
Andy Miller III: You know. I think of Luke being no sorry we keep. I I keep up. We both keep going there. Luke 9 and then he sets his face towards Jerusalem. There's something important about base interesting. Sorry, I interrupted you.
Andy Miller III: We you know.
Patrick Schreiner: No, no, it's fine I was. I was just saying that. It's so interesting to see the differences. But it's very clearly the transfiguration actually doesn't have
Patrick Schreiner: a lot of like it was somewhat tamper proof, like, there's not a lot of differences. There's just like really minor ones that they go through, and they kind of fill in the details. Oh, yeah, the the biggest one I forgot of. I can't believe I forgot this one. But you know Luke gives us the minutes of the meeting like what Moses and legend Jesus we're talking about.
Patrick Schreiner: and it says it was talking about his departure.
Andy Miller III: Which is the word.
Patrick Schreiner: Saying, Greek, his exodus.
Andy Miller III: Oh, man! So.
Patrick Schreiner: So that's really cool, because you can see, Moses is like, Hey, I brought these people through an exodus.
Andy Miller III: Wow!
Patrick Schreiner: Like, Yeah, let me tell you about my exodus. And so, like very clearly, they're talking about like salvation history. And Jesus is showing like the true exodus, is coming on the Passover lamb. And so even not only does the context of like
Patrick Schreiner: Jesus said, He's going to go to the cross. But actually, Luke tells us they're talking about Jesus's crucifixion while he's glorified like. The only way to get here
Patrick Schreiner: is for me to go through this exodus. So that that that's another neat little thing. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: Could I mean it just off the top of my head. Is that could that departure that excess? I guess you're connected to to the cross. But even the Ascension itself, like the.
Patrick Schreiner: Yeah, it could be. I've yeah. Talking about my exodus, I think when I studied it, most people view it as tied more to
Patrick Schreiner: Jesus is. Yeah, kind of going through.
Andy Miller III: Make it.
Patrick Schreiner: Day of Atonement. But I I actually I wonder if it could expand both notes, because Luke is the author who's gonna narrate the ascension twice both. At the end of Luke.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, interesting.
Patrick Schreiner: So there's a book for you right there.
Andy Miller III: There you go. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I'm on it, man Patrick, it's so much fun talking with you. I really love the way that you've internalized all this and it's I I you haven't met, I look for hopefully, can I? I've just been in the Academy for the last 2 and a half years, so maybe I'll see you at a conference some time.
Patrick Schreiner: I love that. And hopefully the book comes at some point, and then you can actually.
Andy Miller III: Yeah, there, you go.
Patrick Schreiner: It's very short, so you could actually read it, probably in an afternoon.
Andy Miller III: How long is it.
Patrick Schreiner: Oh, it's only like a hundred 20 pages.
Andy Miller III: Oh, interesting, so interesting. Okay, great. Well, in in. And now with my mistake, I didn't learn about the Transfiguration book. So.
Patrick Schreiner: That's alright. There you go. Yeah.
Andy Miller III: So I'm glad, Tyler, but I always ask a question. If if the title of podcast. Is more to the story, like to think there's more to people stories more than just what they might be able to describe quickly. There's a theological reason to like thinking more than just having our sins forgiven. But also, like a it's kind of like my funny question, is there more to the story, Patrick? And we already talked about timberwolves and that kind of thing. But is there a hobby that you have, or something like.
Patrick Schreiner: Well, the more to the story right now is on my Sabbatical I picked. I'm not musical at all, but I picked up the guitar, and I've been.
Andy Miller III: Right. We.
Patrick Schreiner: About a year and a half. So
Patrick Schreiner: that's been fun. And I've started to get to the point where I just find I hear a song that I like, and I try to try to recreate it.
Andy Miller III: Bye.
Patrick Schreiner: Like Guitar, with the help of Youtube professionals. So.
Andy Miller III: Right. That's a good.
Patrick Schreiner: That's been a fun fun side project for me.
Andy Miller III: Fine. Well, thanks so much for these books, and I hope that people in my audience will pick them up, and people will start preaching on these themes. I mean, you could just hear, as Patrick's talking about it, the the dozens of servants and ideas that can come from this that can be really powerful for people. So thank you so much for taking time to be with me today. It's meant a lot to me, and I'm thankful for this work that you've done.
Patrick Schreiner: Thanks, Andy. Good to talk to you and get to know you a little bit.