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Diagnosed with Complex Trauma and a Dissociative Disorder, Emma and her system share what they learn along the way about complex trauma, dissociation (CPTSD, OSDD, DID, Dissociative Identity Disorder (Multiple Personality), etc.), and mental health. Educational, supportive, inclusive, and inspiring, System Speak documents her healing journey through the best and worst of life in recovery through insights, conversations, and collaborations.
Over:
Speaker 2:Welcome to the System Speak Podcast, a podcast about Dissociative Identity Disorder. If you are new to the podcast, we recommend starting at the beginning episodes and listen in order to hear our story and what we have learned through this endeavor. Current episodes may be more applicable to long time listeners and are likely to contain more advanced topics, emotional or other triggering content, and or reference earlier episodes that provide more context to what
Speaker 3:we are currently learning and experiencing. As always, please care
Speaker 2:for yourself during and after listening to the podcast. Thank you.
Speaker 4:Okay. Before we do this
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 4:You need to know two things.
Speaker 5:Okay.
Speaker 4:One, I had therapy, so my brain is like, la la la la la la la So I'm in a super weird place.
Speaker 5:This could be a really interesting conversation.
Speaker 4:Well, you're gonna talk about super weird stuff because I don't even understand what's going on. So since it's DID related, I appreciate that you're coming on the podcast to talk about it because I cannot because it's just not my thing. So you're going to have to please like, I'm not making fun even of myself, but you have to seriously very basic level for someone who does not understand comic book world
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:Explain to me what you're talking about.
Speaker 5:Okay. So I'm sure there are plenty of your listeners who are are already familiar with this and have opinions and whatnot. This is just me as an outsider. Aquarium. As an aquarium, who loves a filing cabinet.
Speaker 5:So, you know since getting to know all of you and learning about DID and all of those things and coming to understand it better than than I ever did before, I've been discovering more and more, I guess pop culture depictions of DID, most of which are terrible.
Speaker 4:Okay, so far I'm really excited about this conversation.
Speaker 5:Oh good, I'm so glad. So Disney plus has just started streaming a new series that they're releasing one episode at a time, so I've seen four episodes now.
Speaker 4:Is this a show or a cartoon?
Speaker 5:It is a live action series.
Speaker 4:Okay. I just know you like anime and stuff so I'd
Speaker 5:This is not anime. It's true.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 5:So it's it's like a mini series basically. There's gonna be six episodes total. Each episode is an hour long, and it's a show about one of the lesser known Marvel characters whose name is Moon Knight.
Speaker 4:What is Marvel?
Speaker 5:Marvel is one of the two major comic book companies. ACDC. DC is the other one.
Speaker 4:So close.
Speaker 5:So DC has Batman, Superman, Aquaman, the Justice League. Those are all DC characters. No women? Wonder Woman.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 5:Marvel has the Avengers. They have Spider Man, Iron Man. I I'm my brain has just stopped.
Speaker 4:So this moon knight dude Mhmm. Is like the cousin of Spider Man?
Speaker 5:Not biologically. Oh,
Speaker 4:a character in that world.
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 4:Okay. I'm telling you my brain I'm so sorry.
Speaker 5:No. It's okay.
Speaker 4:Okay. So in the same world, but not related.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 4:Okay. Got it.
Speaker 5:So what's interesting, and I was so curious to see how they were gonna handle this, is that the main character in Moon Knight has DID.
Speaker 4:Like legit DID or like
Speaker 5:That was my question.
Speaker 4:I go around killing people DID because I have not killed anyone yet, not even our children.
Speaker 5:It's true, and I hate that depiction in pop culture. I feel like culturally the understanding of DID still hasn't gotten past Doctor. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, right? I feel like that's
Speaker 4:If only someone would do a podcast to educate the world.
Speaker 5:If only, but who will do it? So I was so intrigued because in the material like all the press stuff leading up to it they were talking about it as DID and not about multiple personalities which seems to be like when people are calling it multiple personalities it's like the phrase that says I don't actually know what this is but it seems like a cool construct.
Speaker 4:So they were giving flags that
Speaker 5:That they have given thought to what this condition is.
Speaker 4:More than just a trope?
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 4:They actually called it reference DID.
Speaker 5:Yes. Specifically.
Speaker 4:That feels like progress, does it?
Speaker 5:Yes. Or Yeah. No. Absolutely.
Speaker 4:Why does, like, my whole body feel nervous about this? Like Exactly.
Speaker 5:I was I was so anxious leading up to the first episode because I really wanted it to be good, I've seen like part of me was afraid it was just another thing where DID was the ultimate secret identity mechanism where even the alter ego doesn't know that he's a superhero.
Speaker 4:Well, with great power comes great responsibilities.
Speaker 5:Well, and in many ways, I think of you as a superhero.
Speaker 1:Wait. What?
Speaker 5:You choose so many things I can't do, and you are able to what's the word?
Speaker 4:Talk to myself?
Speaker 5:No. I talk to myself. It's not partitioning. It's
Speaker 4:Dissociating? No. Compartmentalize.
Speaker 5:Yes. That's the word I was looking for. Because dissociation allows you to compartmentalize in ways that I am not able to, you were able to do things that I can't do. I know that seems like a weird thing but somehow you've turned it into a superpower. It's not a superpower like the alter ego thing, it's just that you yourself are awesome.
Speaker 5:All of you are awesome.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah. No. Actually, this is really good for me right now because I'm really struggling with so hearing you say I'm a superhero feels way better than hearing my I'm gonna go to hell. Yay. DID.
Speaker 4:I'm sorry. I know that seems really random and out of context.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Just full panic attack, and it's only Friday night. I'm just processing where I'm at right now and my response to that experience, which is what I do with everything. So to be authentic, this is a piece of the puzzle, and I cannot be the only one out there who is struggling with DID, trauma, and family response.
Speaker 5:Right. Okay. It's like the value meal of trauma. Oh my goodness. Would you like fries with that?
Speaker 5:Would you like to supersize your trauma?
Speaker 1:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4:That's amazing. Okay. See, thanks for tuning me up. I'm trying really hard. Okay.
Speaker 4:Focusing. We are on Spider Man's cousin who has DID. Not his cousin. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 5:So
Speaker 4:Okay. Yes. So this is coming out. You've been nervous, but the press ahead of time, the media releases ahead of time have actually referenced DID specifically instead of multiple personalities.
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 4:And they presented it as done well and less trope ish than what we were afraid of.
Speaker 5:That's what I've been hoping. Absolutely.
Speaker 4:Okay. So then what happened?
Speaker 5:So I watched the first episode And I really, really loved it.
Speaker 1:What?
Speaker 5:I know. I when you are not all stirred up inside sometime, I really want to watch at least the first episode with you. So they've they've made some changes to the original comic in ways that I think were very, very smart.
Speaker 4:Like what?
Speaker 5:So well, let me let me tell you about the first episode, and then I can tell you what the original was to compare and contrast.
Speaker 4:Oh, please do.
Speaker 5:Well, thank you. So they start in London with this Oh, we love London. Love London. With this sort of
Speaker 4:Hey, London. We love you.
Speaker 5:They they start with this sort of sad sack guy with a Cockney accent who works in a gift shop at the museum and he seems to have some sort of sleep disorder, so he keeps himself tethered to his bed at night because sometimes he sleepwalks, All these other things to just sort of stop himself from doing whatever he does at night. He's kind of unhappy in his life but it just is what it is. The security guard at the museum keeps calling him by the wrong name.
Speaker 4:So far this sounds very much like my life. Yeah. Let's tether me to the bed, my life is miserable but it's okay it just is And people calling me the wrong name. Emily is my dead name.
Speaker 5:Oh. Keep going. Do I need to change what I call you?
Speaker 4:You can call me sweet cakes. No. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 5:Already there.
Speaker 4:I'm kidding. I'm kidding. Okay.
Speaker 5:So the harder he tries to get his life in order
Speaker 4:Oh, no. No.
Speaker 5:Yep. The weirder things seem to get. Right?
Speaker 4:Yes. So far ringing true.
Speaker 5:So, like, a woman at the museum comes up to confirm their date for the next night.
Speaker 4:I had this problem last week. I'm just
Speaker 5:And she's super beautiful, but he didn't ask her out on a date. And evidently, he asked her to a steakhouse, and he's a vegan.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes. Right? Right.
Speaker 5:And
Speaker 4:Do you want mustard on your burger?
Speaker 5:Exactly. Exactly. And so they show him he goes to bed.
Speaker 4:Hold on. We talked about the hot girl date, and now I feel stirrings.
Speaker 5:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4:Okay. Keep going.
Speaker 5:So it's the end of a hard day. He's tied himself tethered himself to his bed again. He's listening to a stay awake podcast because whenever he wakes up, he he's not sure where he is sometimes. And
Speaker 1:so Right?
Speaker 5:And so he falls asleep. And what they do to, like, show losing time is there's this sort of weird waffling sound like and then suddenly he's somewhere else. And so this time.
Speaker 4:I don't have that because I'm deaf.
Speaker 5:Oh there you go. There's this sound and his eyes blink like I've seen transitioning right and he wakes up in the middle of a green field with his jaw dislocated And he has no idea where he is. He looks around. He appears to be in the mountains, and he gets his jaw fixed, and he looks up behind him, and there's like a castle behind him, and there's someone in the window. And he waves at the guy and the people in the window start shooting at him.
Speaker 5:Yes, he discovers there's like a golden scarab in his pocket, he runs to the town to get away from the shooters and discovers he's in the middle of a cult and like all of this weird stuff and the guy who's the head of this cult wants the golden scarab that he has and he tries to give it to him to save his own life, but his hand will not follow his directions.
Speaker 4:Okay time out because you went from this sounds very true to my life to wait we just got scary.
Speaker 5:Yes so there's that's the action movie aspect of it So this is sort of the scary portion, but what continues to happen is he blinks his eyes a few times and time has passed.
Speaker 4:Like intentionally trying to make it pass?
Speaker 5:No. He's not trying to make it pass. Like, he'll be in a bad situation, and then suddenly the situation is over.
Speaker 4:Isn't that awesome?
Speaker 5:Yeah. In this case, like, he's surrounded by an angry group of men and the thing happens and suddenly all of the men are dead on the ground and he's covered in blood and he's like, what? Because he's a super nice guy and he doesn't know what's going on and so this keeps happening and he
Speaker 4:Can I interrupt? I'm already interrupting. I'm sorry. So here's something I want to say. I have not seen a lot of DID movies or shows because I just feel like for me, it's I just need to have my experience.
Speaker 5:Absolutely.
Speaker 4:And so I'm super careful about that and just have chosen for myself not to. But when I have seen something like with a therapist or part of something with a therapist or in that kind of group context or something, what I have appreciated is that even though there are things that are very trope ish or sometimes really scary or DID killer kind of stuff that's awful, please stop doing that world. Please stop doing that.
Speaker 5:Right. Absolutely.
Speaker 4:But I love when they get part of the experience right.
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 4:When they are somehow able to portray something that I have no idea how to explain to someone else and something I don't see from the outside because I'm experiencing it on the inside. So for example, I know in a group coaching session once, we watched a scene from United States of Terra. Yeah. Terra. Is that it?
Speaker 4:Mhmm. And it was the conference table scene.
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 4:And they, I don't know about the rest of the show so much, but they did that scene so well. So well. And I watched in another group part of Sybil just where
Speaker 1:it
Speaker 4:shows there it was a scene about a flashback or lost time or something like that. I don't even remember because it was so intense. I was like, oh, can't do that. That. And clearly I have lost it from my brain.
Speaker 4:But the point is it showed so well what that experience is like. Yes. And so I am loving, I mean, I'm not seeing the show, but from what you're describing, I love that they're portraying an authentic piece of something.
Speaker 5:The lost time. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yes. Even if I don't have the hoo hoo sounds. Yeah. And
Speaker 5:There, yeah, there were, like one of the things that this character struggles with is feeling the responsibility for the behavior of all of the alters.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes. That would not
Speaker 4:be me, but I know who that is someone else.
Speaker 5:So eventually, they they begin communicating with each other. Right?
Speaker 1:No. Don't do it. Don't do it. No. No.
Speaker 1:No. No.
Speaker 5:In this in this series,
Speaker 4:That's kinda real too, though. That's kind of legit. I think I mean, we that's I think we put that in the book. I we've used mirrors for switching.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Not always, but sometimes intentionally when things are intense or we are stuck. So Other times, we, like, just have to avoid mirrors altogether.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:I'm sorry. Keep interrupting, but I'm trying
Speaker 5:to No. I'm glad.
Speaker 4:Other times, like, we just we can't do mirrors. This I think it's one of reasons we don't really fix our hair. Don't really wear makeup very often. Oh, interesting. Like, it's just not my thing.
Speaker 4:I can't do mirrors very often.
Speaker 5:So the the other main personality so in the story, there are essentially three main alters. We have not met the third one yet. That you've seen evidence
Speaker 4:of them? Yes. My goodness.
Speaker 5:But the second altar is actually an American mercenary. So
Speaker 4:Wait. What? Okay. First of all, can I just say that that feeling of you're, like, duking it out with another insider?
Speaker 5:Uh-huh.
Speaker 4:And then you're like, wait. That wasn't you. It wasn't me. They had that conversation.
Speaker 1:You just hit me.
Speaker 5:I was a love tap.
Speaker 1:You never hit me before I was
Speaker 5:No. It was not I'm sorry. I got excited. It was not a hit. It was a excited patting on the arm.
Speaker 1:That that that that Oh,
Speaker 5:I'm sorry. No.
Speaker 1:It's okay. I'm sorry. I freaked out.
Speaker 5:I got so excited. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:Okay so they show that?
Speaker 5:Yes so these two characters
Speaker 4:The American mercenary.
Speaker 5:The American mercenary who has all like the ninja skills of of an action character, right?
Speaker 4:That's basically me.
Speaker 5:And then the nerdy little gift shop employee
Speaker 4:Definitely not me.
Speaker 5:Keep arguing over who gets to come out, right? Who gets to be fronting?
Speaker 4:Definitely me.
Speaker 5:Because they get in these very dangerous situations against their will, but the mercenary is like this is my skill set, I need to be the one out right now and the other guy's like no, you will kill people, I don't want to kill anybody, we're not doing it. And so they keep fighting amongst themselves, but there's one scene where the mercenary comes out and he's surrounded by dead people and he's like why did you do this? He's like I didn't do it! So there's, like, another guy that that we have not met yet.
Speaker 4:So they're still killing, and they're still violent
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 4:Because a superhero, not because of DID.
Speaker 5:It's yes. Because it's an action movie. It's like, you know, born identity or Mission Impossible, like one of those characters.
Speaker 4:Those are the movies I'm not smart enough for. I don't understand what is happening. I can tell it's very cool, but I don't understand. I can't follow the plot.
Speaker 5:I will repeat my theory that I've said before, which is that you cannot follow the plot because so many people are trying to watch the movie. Oh. That nobody is getting to watch the whole thing.
Speaker 4:My movie is compartmentalized?
Speaker 5:No. It's like you've got a viewer. It's like you it's got a View Master, and only one person can look in the View Master at a time, and so everybody is missing about a third of the pictures.
Speaker 4:That makes sense. Oh my goodness. It's really hard for me to sit still to watch movies and Yeah. Cartoons and things. I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:I don't mean to not cooperate.
Speaker 5:No. It's it's good. You are fine just as you are. So I, as as a fish tank, came to this series really curious to know if they would be faithful in depicting an actual DID experience or if they were just going to trivialize it was like something like split is that that awful movie where it's
Speaker 4:I don't even know.
Speaker 5:Yeah, that was one of the recent ones. So as I have watched it I have seen moments where I'm like oh my goodness that must be what it feels like when when, she's switching or or like it I don't know if it's true, like I haven't had those experiences, but there are moments in it that give me my imagination insight into what maybe it is like to have DID. In some ways, I think it's a show that I would show to the kids at a certain age to introduce them to concepts of DID. There's a lot of interesting stuff that happens. There is an actual superhero aspect, but what I like is that it is not an altar that is the superhero.
Speaker 5:The mercenary guy so here is the mythology of this particular character.
Speaker 4:Okay.
Speaker 5:The mercenary guy is at an archaeological dig in Egypt and is shot and on the verge of death he's carried to the foot of a statue of an Egyptian god who offers to bring him back to life if he will do his bidding as his avatar on earth. So he's made this agreement with the mercenary. He does not like the gift shop guy and keeps saying nasty things about him that he can hear in his head
Speaker 4:but That would be me the one saying nasty things about people.
Speaker 5:So there's this wonderful moment I think in the second episode. The the mercenary can, like, put on this magical suit where he has, like, it almost looks like mummy wrappings, and he has this wispy white cape, and he's got a hood that has kind of like a bird beak because the god has a bird head. But the gift shop guy has control of the body and he's not giving it up and there's a woman he meets that seems to know him and she explains that they're married and she didn't know that he had DID and so that's very hard for her. But at one point they're being chased and she keeps saying put on the suit put on the suit put on the suit because she wants him to get in his superhero suit and he falls out of a window and halfway down he just by sheer force tries to put on what he thinks she's talking about and he ends up in a white tuxedo. And so there's like two different versions of the superhero that have some of the same abilities but because they're different alters they manifest in completely different ways and I love that so much.
Speaker 4:That's amazing!
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Wait. So are you saying the wife learns about the DID?
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 4:Do they call it DID?
Speaker 5:In the movie, they haven't called it anything. They've said fractured, they have not called it any specific condition. So when the gift shop guy meets up with this woman, she's like I've been calling you for months I thought you were dead and he's like hi do I know you? And she thinks he's putting on an act and it takes a long time for her to be convinced that he is not kidding And it comes out at some point that he's basically the mercenary in trying to protect the wife from the dangerous things he has done. A new altar has emerged which basically removes all of the dangerous things but results in a character that is made up of almost all of the things she would like.
Speaker 4:That's funny.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Oh, that's fawning. I just had to talk about that in therapy today. Totally got called out.
Speaker 5:There's a an amazing sort of exchange where the mercenary starts getting really frustrated that there's chemistry between the gift shop guy and the wife. He's like you better not make a move on her and he's like but we're the same person he's like no we're not!
Speaker 4:Oh my goodness that's legit, that's legit.
Speaker 5:Yeah so really interesting dynamics it does yes yeah so it's been it's I have really enjoyed it I would really really love to hear what people with actual lived experience think about the show. There's so many things about the show that I know are not accurate, I'm sure they can't be accurate, it's a silly superhero show. But if they are able to capture some of that experience, how amazing would that be for DID? For the DID community to have to be seen in a different way. Right?
Speaker 4:I honestly okay. So I actually have no idea what the community is saying or thinking because I don't know comic books so well. And so I just have not paid attention to this. Although also, honestly, there's just been a lot going on
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 4:Between the conference and kids and
Speaker 5:Personal issues. Yeah.
Speaker 4:Kitchen fires and everything else. So I'm just gonna look up on the DID threads in Reddit.
Speaker 5:Danger. Danger.
Speaker 4:I know. And see what they're saying. So
Speaker 5:Woah. That's a long one, or is that lots of comments?
Speaker 4:It's a long one. It talks about so this one talks about how it clearly is difficult in a media presentation. It's hard to clarify the difference between just fiction because it is fiction
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 4:And an authentic disorder.
Speaker 5:That's legit.
Speaker 4:So the very premise of things makes it difficult.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:But it says that the series actually addresses this, that it's been misinterpreted in the past. I don't know if that's what you were talking about in the media. They say that what's good is that some alters manifested in childhood, but others emerged later and that this is very real. And that and this person has this quote that I do not have a reference for. So I'm sorry.
Speaker 4:I don't know what I'm quoting. But it says, I like that this character is in therapy and this quote rules. Oh, the quote is Bruce Wayne, Batman's alter ego, takes on other identities merely to aid in his investigations, while Moon Knight's three alter egos aid him as much in dealing with personal demons as fighting lawbreakers. It also talks about how in Moon Knight, all the alters have individual jobs and roles.
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:And that the characters start out pretty misinformed about each other and have to get better at working together. So this one is from last year. This is a different thread on the Marvel Studios thread on Reddit. And it says that the comics have not always been above stereotypical depictions of the condition, and so Marvel Studios needs very badly to look beyond the source material when it comes to tackling his mental health if they wanna get this right.
Speaker 5:So here is one of the changes they made to the original material that I think is brilliant is that they have in before it before the series premiered I watched explainers on YouTube talking about who is this Moon Knight character and they would refer to him as Marvel's Batman because there was the mercenary character and then the other character was like a millionaire playboy. But it really felt like he was just switching alters like changing a costume
Speaker 4:right which is not real
Speaker 5:which is not right but here there's two very different sides to this person who clearly are connected in some ways but also very compartmentalized in ways that they can support each other but they have their very own agendas and opinions and experiences and they have to learn how to work together. It's not just flipping a switch. It takes a while for the mercenary to appreciate that the gift shop guy has a lot of knowledge about Egyptology and it takes a while for the gift shop guy to appreciate that the mercenary is going to keep them alive. So I think that was a really good change and the focus on in the original comic is the mercenary guy he is the main character but here they started with the gift shop guy who doesn't have any idea what's going on and that way you get more of his DID experience of losing time and not knowing why other people are talking to him about these things that he doesn't remember doing. Why does the guard in the museum always call him by the wrong name?
Speaker 5:By making that shift in his character I think they really humanized him and brought a lot more depth to his DID experience.
Speaker 4:It sounds like as someone who does not have DID, it sounds like it was really helpful to you in understanding what some of the experiences might be like internally that you don't get to necessarily have access to just because you don't have DID.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:It's interesting what you're saying about them working together because in therapy this week, one of the things that came up was she was trying to talk about parts work, which I was like, are you talking about working with parts, or is this, like, capitalized? Like, when she says it like that, it sounds like it's a thing. Parts work. Like, p, capital w, parts work. Like, EMDR or, like, the PW.
Speaker 4:What is this that we're talking about? And so she was saying about how when we are ready she was not pushing. I wanna be very clear about that. She was being very respectful. But that when we are ready to be more communicative about who is attending therapy, that part of what she's very able to do is follow a thread with that part, even if it's over time.
Speaker 4:And so she was like, if so and so comes in and wants to work on something, then anytime I see them, we can work on what that is. If you also just bring something new, like, we can, like she's very big on, she will meet us where we are. And I'm like, the problem with that is I don't know where I am. But she's very gracious about that. And all teasing aside, she was trying to explain how if we will if when we're ready to communicate about who is there, because she's still getting to know us.
Speaker 4:Right? Like, worked all these months just on, this is what happened with our previous therapist. And so I feel bad because I feel like I'm going to a new therapist and I'm having an affair on her. Like, I'm here to talk about another therapist. Like, I'm really sorry, but we've spent like six or seven months on that, and it's just now starting to get back into treatment treatment.
Speaker 4:And so she was saying, if I know who's here, you don't have to say anything you don't want to. Nobody has to tell me. You don't have to say if you're not ready. That's okay. But what she was explaining, like, what she has to offer is if we will tell her when we can tell her, if we want to tell her, that she can then, like, structure our session more specifically to what they need rather than she right now is spending a lot of time guessing because we won't tell her.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 4:Because we have learned to be so open about that and we're trying to be open with that with you, I mean, with our previous therapist, and then also with you, and then even with our friends. But when we lost those friends and then lost that therapist, we even shut that down with you. Yeah. Like, we're not gonna talk about it anymore. That clearly was a bad idea.
Speaker 4:It was safe. It was dangerous. Everybody got hurt. It was a disaster and caused a pandemic. Like, not really.
Speaker 4:But that's like Yeah. Escalates. No Right? And so trying to bring those walls back down as we get back into actual treatment instead of just therapy for therapy, which unpretending asked in group let me just say this. Unpretending asked in group what we mean when we say therapy for therapy.
Speaker 4:What I mean when I say that is having to use my therapy time to talk about trauma experiences in therapy in the past. So, like, when previous things went wrong, when my therapist took me home, when this therapist lost us.
Speaker 5:Oh, so therapy to recover from the trauma caused by therapy?
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 5:There we go.
Speaker 4:Yes. Yes. When our therapist had an affair with our partner, that needed some therapy in itself for what happened in therapy or what happened outside of therapy.
Speaker 5:That makes sense. Therapy. Therapy.
Speaker 4:Right? Therapy she'll like that because she's like, is this book group or book book group?
Speaker 1:Because we
Speaker 5:have you're studying books about books?
Speaker 4:Well, we have a book group, and we have a workbook group. Ah. And they call the workbook group book book group.
Speaker 5:That is hilarious.
Speaker 4:They're adorable. I love them so much. So, anyway, we are just now transitioning back into, like, treatment therapy
Speaker 2:for
Speaker 4:DID. Enough that we're starting to journal again
Speaker 5:Oh, good.
Speaker 4:For the first time, but we found a different way to do the same thing. Mhmm. And we're doing it kind of digitally where we can email her, but we're not emailing her for that. Like, we talk about it in therapy. But, I mean, journaling, instead of handing in a paper notebook, we're hand we are emailing the file, but we wrote it with a pen in the iPad app.
Speaker 5:Awesome.
Speaker 4:But we all have our own pens just like we did in the notebooks.
Speaker 5:Nice.
Speaker 4:Right? Like, this has finally just unfolded.
Speaker 5:That's wonderful.
Speaker 4:IPad, which was a gift, and then people talked about different apps you can use for different things. And we're basically using one for art and one for journaling, but that journaling app lets us import the art.
Speaker 5:Awesome.
Speaker 4:And so it's kind of fabulous.
Speaker 5:That's really good.
Speaker 4:Right? But she was saying so, like, that's just been in the last few weeks. So it's kind of a big deal. And because of that, though, like, she saw some handwriting. There was a little bit of interaction, and she's like, do we just wanna hold space for this, or do we wanna talk about it?
Speaker 4:Do we wanna just acknowledge this, or do you wanna tell me even if just pointing
Speaker 1:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:Which ones are yours, and do you wanna talk about any of that? Well, no. I don't wanna talk about anything. What do you think? I came here for therapy.
Speaker 4:But anyway so I'm sorry. I know you're trying to talk about this movie show thing, but it's interesting that you're referencing that because she was saying it was not something about y'all need to talk to each other and you need to work this out and work together. It was like, no. I can hold space with you specifically if you wanna let me who if you wanna let me know who you are or even, like, she has the circle notebook.
Speaker 5:Oh, awesome.
Speaker 4:And she's like, you could even just point on the page if you and I'm like, not today Because it's so scary to go back to that space.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 4:And part of it is because it's scary because it went bad before. Part of it is we trusted that previous therapist so much that anytime we try to get that trusting place again, it feels so raw because that grief gets stirred
Speaker 1:up.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So it can it's never just what I'm trying to do in the moment. It's like added a whole extra layer of trauma on top of all the other trauma. It's exhausting.
Speaker 5:You should have John Mark take role.
Speaker 1:What?
Speaker 5:When it's therapy time, have John Mark take role.
Speaker 4:Take role? What do you mean?
Speaker 5:Write a list of who's attending and put a little star by anybody who has something they would like to talk about.
Speaker 4:I am not letting him be the boss of me. He's
Speaker 5:not being the boss. He's being a a record keeper.
Speaker 4:He's gonna be a hall monitor.
Speaker 5:Yes. I can picture that.
Speaker 4:No. Oh my goodness. You and your big ideas.
Speaker 1:Don't do it.
Speaker 5:You know he's gonna run with it.
Speaker 1:Remember when he was DJing?
Speaker 4:Yes. I
Speaker 1:was just thinking of that.
Speaker 5:That was amazing.
Speaker 4:That's so funny. Oh, I'm sorry. I got it so far off topic.
Speaker 5:That was a delightful memory, though.
Speaker 4:So moon night, you're liking it.
Speaker 5:I am.
Speaker 4:And you think it's worth seeing?
Speaker 5:I think so. I would love when when you aren't feeling vulnerable and stirred up, I would love to at least watch one episode with you. But I do have a question regarding this latest episode that came out this week. If I could get your would you be willing to share your opinion on something?
Speaker 4:I've got a podcast. It's what I do. So That happened in therapy today too. She's like, can I ask you a question? I'm like, you've got me.
Speaker 4:I'll tell you anything. Then she asked me something and I was like, oh, no. Not that. So close.
Speaker 5:So there is a very common trope in stories about people with mental illness where they wake up and discover that maybe they were in a psychiatric hospital the whole time right so there's a point in the fourth episode where the mercenary guy basically wakes up in a psychiatric hospital, and actors that have appeared through all of the show are there in the hospital. And like everything in the ward is referencing something that we've seen and at first I was like because I don't want it I don't want it to be tropey but I started thinking is this his internal space because what happens at one point he's trying to escape from his doctor who's in the the mental hospital and he passes a room where there's a sarcophagus because it's all been about this Egypt stuff right and he hears thumping from inside it and he pushes the lid off and it's the the gift shop guy and they're both able to be present and they give each other a hug and I was like and then they're running down the hall and they pass another room with the door open and there's another sarcophagus that's like someone thumping on the inside and both of them just sort of go past it without acknowledging it.
Speaker 1:Oh no. I was
Speaker 5:like it's the other guy.
Speaker 1:It's the other guy. Spoilers.
Speaker 5:And so I thought like is it it his inner space? Like my understanding is it's not uncommon for people with DID to have sort of a location an inner location right?
Speaker 4:We call it an inner world.
Speaker 5:There we go the inner world so is this is it I just needed the word clearly is this his inner world maybe at some point he really was hospitalized and it was it became like his base I don't know. I guess I don't know what my question is. Guess my question is are they doing it well or badly? And I can't decide.
Speaker 4:Well, and I'm not seeing it so I can't answer that.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's true.
Speaker 4:But I think as far as answering your question, there's a couple layers to it because one is definitely the inner world experience, which is different for everyone.
Speaker 5:Sure.
Speaker 4:And like people who wanna learn more about that need to go to the plurals because they are super, super detailed with how to practice developing that inner world. We have talked on the podcast and in the book a little bit about how to improve spaces in the internal world.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:That being said, for us, that really required working with our therapist, which I'm not cooperating with yet at the time of this recording. But I want to. I don't know. Therapy gets so trancy, and I don't even have a therapist that uses hypnosis. Like, and I don't know.
Speaker 4:I walk into that space with a therapist, and I don't know what to compare it to. There is something when you have a good therapist that you feel safe with. So my previous therapist at the time or my current therapist now, when I walk into their office, like I'll stay in the present. When I walk into my therapist's office now, which I have now been in person, the way, right? So when I walk into her office, well, it's I don't know.
Speaker 4:It's almost its own kind of hypnotic experience because on the one hand, I'm absolutely completely freaked out and in a panic. But on the other hand, because I'm safe, I also let these defense walls down. Not that there's not still defenses there. Clearly, that's why I'm in therapy, and we're working through that. But there is something where I'm not really entirely in that room.
Speaker 4:I'm in another space already.
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:And which is why she talks about, like, I'll go wherever you are kind of thing. But to acknowledge that out loud even to you right now is kind of a big deal and is difficult to describe. So an example would be with EMDR, they say to be able to do eye movements how do my therapist say this? To be able to do eye movements, you need to be able to have one foot in now time and one foot in memory time. Because if you're only in now time, you're not gonna be able to target what you're trying to target.
Speaker 4:But if you're lost in memory time, you're going to have abreaction instead of processing. Yes. And so it's very much like that. For me, when I walk into my I mean, it's not something I do intentionally, and it takes time and safety to build up to that, but I can walk into my therapist's office and I am in a different zone that is not about our geographical space. It is absolutely a mental space that now I understand has to do with trance in a way that I am not able to explain or intentional about in any way.
Speaker 4:But because of that, they can say things or she can say something and it makes it very, very real to me inside. And I think that's one reason why bad therapy is so dangerous and such a violation because that's a mind rape. That's a mind rape and why good therapy can be so, so powerful. But so that's one kind of internal space that happens with your environment. The other one is memory time specific.
Speaker 4:And the then the other one that you're talking about within our world has to do with how alters or parts or insiders, whatever you wanna say, how they experience each other internally
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And interact or see or communicate with each other internally. And that is different with every system on the planet. But it's also, at least for us, and I don't know if this is a thing or not other than it's our own experience, that's also different depending on which one of us you're asking.
Speaker 5:Sure.
Speaker 4:For us specifically, it has to do with what circle you're on, but that's like really hard to explain to people out loud. So I don't know what they're doing with the show, but I can tell you I agree, and I haven't even seen it, but I agree that it's significant that they ran past the other Yes. Sarcophagus.
Speaker 5:The one they weren't ready to meet yet.
Speaker 4:Oh, I'm totally having guilt feelings about that now. That's a lot. Can I ask you a question?
Speaker 5:Yes,
Speaker 4:please. Because I'm not seeing the show, I don't know. When the third person that they haven't met yet, is that person someone that's new, like, has come because of new trauma, or that is someone who was already there that they're just finding out about? Because we've had both of those experiences.
Speaker 5:I
Speaker 4:Like new to them or new to the body?
Speaker 5:I think it's new to them. I like watching, like, recap and easter egg videos about it and some of the commentators have talked about how it seems like the third mystery altar is pretty capable at pretending he is the gift shop employee.
Speaker 1:Oh that's a thing! Yeah that's a thing!
Speaker 5:So like they don't think that it's the married guy, the mercenary that asked the girl out on the date, but the girl who was asked out on the date knew he worked in the gift shop and so yeah they think that he's been pretending to be the gift shop guy.
Speaker 4:So let's talk about that for a minute because that is also a thing. Yeah. Let's not talk about it.
Speaker 5:Oh, you're getting twitchy.
Speaker 4:What?
Speaker 5:I just wanted your listeners to be able to experience what these visual gestures were you were doing. You're like anxious finger tapping on the shoulders.
Speaker 4:Hey, now.
Speaker 5:Mischievous smile perhaps with a twinge of guilt or self incrimination.
Speaker 4:Of pretending to be someone else. Well, sometimes you have to mask it. Right?
Speaker 5:Oh, absolutely.
Speaker 4:You have to be covert. Did you know do you know what my therapist said today? She said that counts as fawning. That anytime you put on a mask to be safe and to be what other people need so that they feel comfortable and you are masked, that that counts as funny. And this very thing I got called out on today of
Speaker 5:You yourself?
Speaker 4:Uh-huh.
Speaker 5:Whoopsie. Yes.
Speaker 4:Well, at first, saying that we were okay when we were not so that she would not be distressed.
Speaker 5:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 4:So that was step one of fawning. When that failed, we went to step two, which was masking who was where doing what so that she wouldn't have to worry about it. Except she's like, this is my job, and you literally pay me to do that. So if you wanna let me do that, I'm okay with doing that. Let's see.
Speaker 4:Awesome.
Speaker 5:Oh, therapy.
Speaker 4:So you have watched four of these episodes.
Speaker 5:Yes. There's two more.
Speaker 4:Two more. So it's gonna end terrible, and we will have already recorded this and been like
Speaker 5:Then we'll have to do a follow-up episode and say, never mind.
Speaker 4:Maybe we could do a follow-up episode after I have watched it, or we could do a two parter. We can watch all of it. And then
Speaker 5:Get your
Speaker 4:actual airs, it could be a Monday and a Thursday episode.
Speaker 5:Oh, that's genius.
Speaker 4:Well, I've got some podcasting experience now. Let me tell you.
Speaker 5:You do.
Speaker 4:Okay. So this called moon night.
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:And it's this is really funny because this whole time I thought you were talking about moonlighting. Like the old school show from Yeah. Before we were adults even.
Speaker 5:Oh my goodness.
Speaker 4:And I was like, that's really funny, Metro Man. Why are you so into this? This whole time, that's what I thought you were talking about. I was like, I remember my mom watching that sometimes, but that's all. I don't really I know there was a guy and a girl, but that's all I remember about it.
Speaker 5:That's amazing.
Speaker 4:Okay. Moon Knight. Yes. And it's on Disney plus.
Speaker 5:It is.
Speaker 4:Why are we not getting paid for this advertising?
Speaker 5:We should be.
Speaker 4:Okay. So we're not advertising. We're just watching. So okay. So to be clear, people need to know that there is some violence.
Speaker 5:There's absolutely some violence.
Speaker 4:So that's some triggers there. And people need to know that because it's a superhero movie, it still has some of that trope theme to it, but it's improved on by how humanizing of both the characters it is, and it's not just one in a cape that makes it an alter ego.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Okay. Anything else people need to know before they try it out?
Speaker 5:No. Just I'd be really curious to hear people think about it, if they think it's a there are things that they've done right and what they're doing wrong.
Speaker 4:Well, and they may not even agree with us. I remember when my friend Jane had her show
Speaker 5:Mhmm.
Speaker 4:Then what was it called? Many sides of Jane.
Speaker 5:Oh, yeah.
Speaker 4:Is that it? And people were like, why are they doing the wavy? Like, had some kind of visual sound effect or something to show the switching. And people were like, that's so dramatized. Something I was like, maybe it is, maybe it's not, but I appreciate them making explicit, which is I think all they were trying to do.
Speaker 4:And in a media presentation for people who don't know about DID, that's really tricksy to do, and it actually didn't bother me very much. Once I understood what they were trying to do, I was just like, oh, like for me, it's no different than when we used to listen to the records. And now when you hear the sound, turn the page.
Speaker 5:Well, in speaking as someone who is married to someone with DID and didn't realize, there needs to be some sort of externalizing of an internal experience because there's not always an external signal that says, oh, we're switching now. Maybe if people were more observant than I am, that would help, but there's not like a little blinking light that goes off when a change is happening. What if every time there is a switch, you got beep beep like a truck backing up?
Speaker 4:Well, that
Speaker 5:So everyone would know to take a step back just to be safe and figure out what's going on and then you can reengage.
Speaker 4:You know why that doesn't happen? Because that would be announcing that we had been triggered or someone else had to cope with something, which would mean fawning failed.
Speaker 5:Well, in all of the dissociation is a way of protecting yourself. Right? Not drawing attention to yourself.
Speaker 4:Wait, what?
Speaker 5:Isn't it?
Speaker 1:Say that again?
Speaker 5:All of the dissociation is a way of protecting yourself, drawing attention to yourself. So a little auditory signal going off would be completely
Speaker 4:hell
Speaker 5:antithetical to the whole purpose of dissociating.
Speaker 4:Right. Well, maybe that's why that sound or visual or whatever bothered people because it wasn't congruent with experience. Even though in context, cognitively, you understood that they were trying to do.
Speaker 5:Make sense. Absolutely.
Speaker 4:Interesting. Okay. Let's do it.
Speaker 5:You you'll watch it with me sometime?
Speaker 4:Well, I'm kinda nervous, and I'll probably fall asleep, but I'll give it a college try.
Speaker 5:I love it. You could have John Mark take notes so that the parts Oh
Speaker 4:my goodness, why do you keep trying to get him out?
Speaker 5:The parts that you miss he can fill you in on the inside later and you'd be like oh now I under okay. No
Speaker 4:I feel like he's getting awful therapeutic on me all of a sudden.
Speaker 5:He's he's the most cooperative.
Speaker 1:I beg your pardon?
Speaker 5:Wrong word. He's the most suggestive. Suggestible? He's the most suggestible.
Speaker 1:Because we are dissociative.
Speaker 4:Wait. Are you trying to hypnotize someone else through me?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 5:He plays games with me.
Speaker 1:Oh, you're playing games alright.
Speaker 5:I'm sorry. I don't mean to I'm not trying to be manipulative.
Speaker 4:I can feel it.
Speaker 5:Oh, dear.
Speaker 4:This is gonna be a drama. I can tell.
Speaker 5:You'll have to edit out my whole dark side here.
Speaker 1:Oh,
Speaker 4:I I think we're gonna need snacks if you're gonna be offering suggestions to certain people.
Speaker 5:That's true. It does not come for free.
Speaker 4:I don't think someone's just gonna take notes without getting paid with snacks.
Speaker 5:There we go. I love it.
Speaker 4:Then we can talk to the dietitian about that.
Speaker 5:I'll have we'll have a nice big bowl of brussels sprouts.
Speaker 4:Oh my goodness. So moonlight. Moonlight.
Speaker 5:I'm not moonlighting.
Speaker 4:That's so funny. I always on episodes like this, I always have to call it something else. Like, I couldn't call the Encanto episode Encanto.
Speaker 5:Right.
Speaker 4:I couldn't call the Red Panda episode. I mean
Speaker 5:Turning Red.
Speaker 4:Turning Red. I couldn't call it Turning Red because two reasons. One, copyright, and two, it brings in a whole bunch of wackadoodle people.
Speaker 5:Oh, because they're searching that term.
Speaker 4:Yes. So on this episode, I'm just gonna call it moonlighting.
Speaker 5:That's hilarious. You know, it's what all the kids are watching these days. Can't get enough of that, Cybill Shepherd. Was it Bruce Willis? Was he the other one in that show?
Speaker 4:I don't even know. I just know it was a guy and a girl. I never watched it. It was before we were born.
Speaker 5:I don't think it was before I was born.
Speaker 1:Wasn't it?
Speaker 5:I don't think so.
Speaker 4:My mom watched, like, reruns.
Speaker 5:I'm gonna look it up because now I'm curious.
Speaker 4:It wasn't black and white, though. Nope. The kids are always shocked when there was something we watched in black and white. You were alive back then.
Speaker 5:1985 to 1989.
Speaker 4:Okay. So we were seven.
Speaker 5:Okay.
Speaker 4:And okay. Funny story.
Speaker 5:Uh-huh.
Speaker 4:Well, not funny story, but it made me think of it. While we were at the Airbnb with Mary, she was trying to watch TV, and I was not being helpful because we don't watch TV. And so she was playing with the remotes, and she found Netflix. And she was like, I'm gonna watch Netflix because these other channels all have those commercials from the old days. So it had cable, and it had, like, Roku or something, and and it had the Netflix.
Speaker 4:And the people who had been there before us had not signed out, and so their Netflix was still signed in. So she was, like, looking up Carmen San diego or something. And,
Speaker 5:they're gonna be like, why is this in my recently played videos?
Speaker 1:Yes. And but she couldn't she
Speaker 4:was like, I wanna watch those commercials from the old days. Like, they have no comprehension that commercials are part of TV because we don't watch TV, so they only see it at hotels.
Speaker 5:And their grandparents' house.
Speaker 4:And the grandparents' That's so funny.
Speaker 5:Plus, you know, grandma watches the Hallmark Channel, so they think all commercials are about adult diapers and Viagra and insurance and pills to make your brain work. And
Speaker 4:Oh my goodness. They're in such they have such an experience of opposition right now because they have been with us plus the pandemic, so really been with us
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:And then gone back to school and are encountering all these things that are so unlike anything even you and I had to go through in school.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:It's just very, very different. And the things that they have to encounter and face every day and deal with, like, I'm just in shock. Talk about, like, not just feeling old of like, now, oh, we never did that in my day.
Speaker 5:But I hear myself saying things like that now.
Speaker 4:But moon night is for all the cool kids, The young coming uppers.
Speaker 5:Those whippersnappers.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for listening to us and for all of your support for the podcast, our books, and them being donated to survivors and the community. It means so much to us as we try to create something that's never been done before, not like this. Connection brings healing. One of the ways we practice this is in community together. The link for the community is in the show notes.
Speaker 2:We look forward to seeing you there while we practice caring for ourselves, caring
Speaker 1:for
Speaker 2:our family, and participating with those who also care for community. And remember, I'm just a human, not a therapist for the community, and not there for dating, and not there to be shiny happy. Less shiny, actually. I'm there to heal too, being human together. So, yeah, sometimes we'll see you there.