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FUTURE OF XYZ is a bi-weekly interview series that explores big questions about where we are as a world and where we’re going. Through candid conversations with international experts, visionary leaders and courageous changemakers- we provoke new thinking about what's coming down the pipeline on matters related to art & design, science & innovation, culture & creativity.
Future of XYZ is presented by iF Design, a respected member of the international design community and host of the prestigious iF DESIGN AWARD since 1953. The show is also a proud member of the SURROUND Podcast Network. For more information, visit ifdesign.com/XYZ.
00:00:04:00 - 00:00:17:19
Speaker 2
Hi and welcome to this week's episode of Future of XYZ. I am really honored and privileged to introduce Nina Cooke John to Future of XYZ. Nina, thank you for joining us for the Future of Placemaking.
00:00:17:21 - 00:00:22:16
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for the invitation. Happy to be in conversation with you today.
00:00:22:18 - 00:00:47:09
Speaker 2
Nina, you're the founding principal of your own studio, Studio Cooke John Architecture and Design, based in New York City. Your licensed to practice across multiple states up here in the northeast. You've won a ton of awards for your architecture, urban planning and, even artwork, which we'll get to talk about, and have been featured in lots of magazines.
00:00:47:11 - 00:01:01:00
Speaker 2
my understanding is that you grew up in Kingston, Jamaica, which I'm really excited to talk about. But got your undergraduate degree at Cornell and masters at Columbia. So New York, New York native for a long time now.
00:01:01:02 - 00:01:06:16
Speaker 1
Yes, yes, yes, yes. This is where I've landed and been for a very long time.
00:01:06:18 - 00:01:26:04
Speaker 2
It's a place where lots of us like to be. I'm excited to dive in on placemaking. It's a topic that perhaps our listeners and viewers won't know a lot about. So as I ask every guest, in the context of your expertise in today's conversation, how do we define placemaking?
00:01:26:06 - 00:01:46:21
Speaker 1
Placemaking, as I understand it, is really creating and supporting environments in the public space that promote connection, connection to people to each other, and connection to people and their immediate local neighborhoods.
00:01:46:23 - 00:02:24:02
Speaker 2
I appreciate that. I mean, I think I was curious when we discussed this conversation, because I think the multidisciplinary design studio that you run, one of your focus areas really is valuing placemaking as a way to transform relationships, as you just said, between people and the built environment, which seems really obvious, but it's not historically, especially that defining quality of placemaking seems to be versus pure planning or architecture.
00:02:24:05 - 00:02:30:22
Speaker 2
It seems to be people centered and community based. Is this accurate and like, how does that actually play out?
00:02:30:24 - 00:03:05:01
Speaker 1
It's very, very much people centered and community based. what we're striving for is belonging ultimately. How do people see their values, their community, their historical and, you know, cultural landscape of their community reflected in public space, right? So the the built environment in public space is reflecting the place, the people, the cultural history, the social history.
00:03:05:05 - 00:03:26:02
Speaker 1
So if it genuinely is tapping into, you know, all that I just described, those who live there, whether recent transplants or generationally feel connected to it in terms of they identify with how it's representing the space.
00:03:26:04 - 00:04:03:00
Speaker 2
It's really interesting to me because as I started to say, when we came to this topic, I had in my mind something a little esoteric, but also very tied to Memorial. Right. Like, and and I think about we're going to talk about some of your most recent projects as we go along. But I as I started researching this conversation, I've come to understand placemaking is really kind of an umbrella concept for diverse practices related to public space, and community development.
00:04:03:02 - 00:04:15:14
Speaker 2
What are some of the aspects, you know, that that might come into play in, in what we would call placemaking because it's not just the built environment is broad. What are some of your favorite aspects to pull in?
00:04:15:16 - 00:04:29:16
Speaker 1
So some of the context might be, I'll tap into a recent project of ours. We worked with the Pitkin Avenue Bid in Brownsville as part of Urban Design Forum's Local Center initiative.
00:04:29:17 - 00:04:31:11
Speaker 2
That's in Brooklyn, New York.
00:04:31:13 - 00:05:03:07
Speaker 1
That's in Brooklyn, New York. this initiative was supporting underserved corridors in, creating this vision plan. And the vision plan was for the public spaces. And so as part of that process, we, had a year long community engagement sessions, different sessions in different ways, pulling, pulling in different stakeholders from tenant groups, political council people, business people, residents of all kinds.
00:05:03:10 - 00:05:36:15
Speaker 1
And what we were trying to get at is how do they understand Brownsville, what Brownsville is, their historical connection to Brownsville. And then, much of what also came out is, what they thought Brownsville was known for primarily. Right. And, and they thought that it was primarily, it was primarily shown in a negative light, right in the news one way or another or violence, whatever it might be.
00:05:36:17 - 00:06:13:21
Speaker 1
However, we were looking to create spaces, in the public realm for them, like parklet type spaces, spaces that would promote out local programing, maybe by tenant groups, as well as businesses, you know, beyond just your typical parks or how to help them to actually use their parks more often. And so to encourage them to use this public space, we needed to tap into what were your historical ways of using public space, you know, how did your parents use to use public space?
00:06:13:21 - 00:06:35:03
Speaker 1
What are the things they used to do in the evenings on, you know, on a nice summer evening? what are some of the celebrations that you had, you know, and they would talk about, evening dance parties in the summer, big block parties and cookouts. which really tapped into cultural celebrations.
00:06:35:03 - 00:06:56:04
Speaker 2
And I'm just going to interrupt for two seconds for the international listeners or non New Yorkers. Brownsville is traditionally a very Caribbean immigrant community, but very diverse, like so much of New York is. So when you're talking about kind of these evening dance parties and things, it's all the culture is, is very, very key to the identity of place.
00:06:56:06 - 00:07:26:18
Speaker 1
Absolutely. So it's it's a historically, predominantly black migrants from the Caribbean, but also the South landed in Brownsville. And so multi-generational. folks who have moved there from elsewhere. and so tapping into cultural traditions that happen in public space that people want to bring back, it used to be there and they really feel, culturally connected to those things.
00:07:26:20 - 00:07:51:06
Speaker 1
also just wanting space is to be able to inhabit outside, you know, you go to maybe just a local, store to buy food or pick up something else you want to just to be able to sit outside. And also being in the out of doors is how we connect to our neighbors, right? Is how we kind of build these relationships outside of just the communities that we know.
00:07:51:08 - 00:08:10:12
Speaker 1
And so, you know, we were able to take the responses that we got to generate, you know, these proposals for these little cul de sacs that they have along the corridor for how the the infrastructure that could be built to support, such activation. You know.
00:08:10:16 - 00:08:23:06
Speaker 2
That's so interesting actually, like the little cul de sacs and parklets as you, as you mentioned, like little parks, you know, where people can find refuge amidst the city, you know, concrete.
00:08:23:08 - 00:08:53:16
Speaker 1
Exactly. And one of the examples was one of the cul de sacs was right next to a larger community garden. So for that one, we suggested that we could include built in planters that could be a spillover from the community garden. That would include not only perennials, but maybe, you know, vegetables that had been planted there and also include space where they could actually have, like a cookout, like an old school cookout.
00:08:53:18 - 00:09:25:02
Speaker 1
So, you know, those culturally specific activities connected with the existing community gardens where we know there are, residents who are stewarding, you know, the the gardens would spill out into a more public space, pulling in not only the gardeners and the people in the cookout, but other people who just be walking by. Right. And suddenly now we have a vibrant and active, community space, you know?
00:09:25:02 - 00:09:50:16
Speaker 2
So, it's amazing. I love that it's it's it's an interesting it's a fantastic example. So thanks for walking us through how it kind of starts and where it can lead to then the impact. it's really interesting to me because it's a practice that originated kind of in the late last century, like really in like kind of the 60s, 70s.
00:09:50:18 - 00:10:22:06
Speaker 2
And, and part of that is because of urban blight that was happening, right, where cities historically have built for the density of its dwellers rather than the quality of those dwellers lives. Right. So it's built dwellings versus like a quality of life. When you think about kind of the pushback to that modernist, you know, top down approach. What do you think was actually the spark that ignited the movement, which kind of started in New York in a way.
00:10:22:08 - 00:10:29:22
Speaker 2
But like, how has that continued? Because your firm's entire practice is really, like centered on placemaking.
00:10:29:24 - 00:11:07:02
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's definitely very recent. This is not anything I learned when I was in school, and I graduated in the late 90s. Right. this is something that I've, our practice has developed, through being engaged in different spaces. Really, you know, for a while, I worked in a kind of design strategy space, which was looking to innovation, but based on the kind of, Stanford School IDEO practice of people centered design and really thinking about people centered design in public space, right.
00:11:07:04 - 00:11:59:19
Speaker 1
And how it becomes a kind of pushback from, like you said, the top down planning and really thinking about, communities on the streets. But tapping back into, as you said, that kind of 1960s Jane Jacobs, thinking about streets as being part of communities and, really specialized connections amongst neighbors. Right? And not just kind of, blocks of development and, and so it's kind of, thinking about development as two parts, like what are the top down considerations in terms of codes and policies, but what are the bottom up considerations in terms of kind of cultural legacy and, community voiced wants and needs?
00:11:59:21 - 00:12:20:03
Speaker 2
I really appreciate that point of view because it it matters right to listen. And it's interesting because I just actually gave an interview yesterday, which was talking about like, what's the difference between good design, great design and excellent design? And I was like, oh, I'm not a designer and I'm not a juror, so I shouldn't be answering this question.
00:12:20:05 - 00:13:03:10
Speaker 2
But they pushed me hard and I said, well, ultimately, I think that design excellence accounts for all stakeholders and is introducing plenary by its nature and thinks across like a lifecycle and a value chain in a very integrated way. And I'm always dumbfounded that that's not what all design does. And I was preparing for this, and I thought it was an opportunity to challenge what you think, in that is do you think that because of the multi-disciplinary practice that placemaking is and the bringing it in, is, is that what makes excellent design, or is that specific to the built environment and placemaking?
00:13:03:12 - 00:13:29:04
Speaker 1
I think that's what makes excellent design. I would say across the board it is multi-disciplinary. It's considering the stakeholders in different ways, which is why it's multidisciplinary, right? Each of us kind of have our specialty, but when we can, unite in discussion around whatever it is we're designing, suddenly you know, the whole is more than it's parts in terms of the collaborative effort.
00:13:29:06 - 00:14:01:18
Speaker 1
And, I would definitely say that great design. when you're experiencing it, you feel like it's a celebration somehow, right? It's a celebration of of something, you know, when you go into a community and you're designing a space, a community space, you are not looking to solve a problem, but you're looking to amplify, existing, strengths.
00:14:01:23 - 00:14:37:07
Speaker 1
Right? But that just haven't been identified yet. And you're, you're hoping to amplify and promote those. And so it, it it ends up being a celebration of, again, you know, whether the cultural legacy, historical legacy, current community and neighborhood connections that are just supported or, you know, visualized somehow or somehow or are allowed to become that much better noticed when you enter these spaces.
00:14:37:10 - 00:14:38:07
Speaker 1
Right?
00:14:38:09 - 00:15:07:04
Speaker 2
It it's, thank you for that. It's, I think about, you know, iF Design who's the where I work, but also is the presenting partner of Future of XYZ, we host a trend conference tied to the release of our annual trend report, which this year happened in Berlin at the end of April. And two of the speakers were, these wonderful women out of Montreal, out of a studio called Daily tous les jours.
00:15:07:06 - 00:15:35:03
Speaker 2
And they do these musical swings, among other things. But they're, they're they're urban interventions. They can be temporary or permanent, and they really create this sense of play and connection. A lot of what you're talking about when I think about placemaking, coming back to like the definition, I feel like memorials and I want to come to your Harriet Tubman Plaza in in Newark, New Jersey that won an AIA silver last year.
00:15:35:08 - 00:15:41:12
Speaker 2
But I also want and reminds me a lot of the embrace up in Boston Commons. And it's in its shaped structure.
00:15:43:06 - 00:16:09:04
Speaker 2
but I think about like, something that memorializes the past and, and gives people in the present and future something to ground in, but also those kind of playful interventions or temporary interventions, like a lot of your artwork is how does that kind of placemaking get considered in the kind of bigger concept, if you will?
00:16:09:06 - 00:16:50:03
Speaker 1
I would say the pop up placemaking, you know, this, those kind of temporary interventions, often times they just remind people of the possibilities, right? They remind people of the possibilities of what you can do in public space. So, you know, sometimes after a recent, even permanent intervention and installation or whatever it might be, the, the, commissioning agencies might do a series of programing, right, that involve these pop ups to just remind people or tell people, look, these are the things that you can do in this space.
00:16:50:09 - 00:17:20:22
Speaker 1
Now, we've shown you some examples are we've reminded you of examples that happened in the past. You know, so you walk away from that thinking, hey, we can use this space in this way. And actually if we've use it in way X, we can also use it in ways Y and Z, right? so those pop up interventions, I think, remind people of the different ways of how they can program the space, but also excite them about the gathering.
00:17:20:22 - 00:17:47:01
Speaker 1
Right? Is like, hey, we gathered to see that dance performance and that was fun. Let's gather again. and so then when it comes to the kind of memorialization and the kinds of placemaking we do with Memorial, the kind of commemorative landscapes that not only allows kind of different scales of connecting to the space. So you could be just you and your family.
00:17:47:01 - 00:18:12:17
Speaker 1
You are brought there either because you heard about, you know, you're interested in learning more about Harriet Tubman, or you were just walking through the park and you saw it and, you know, you decided to sit and connect. But this idea that, this historical event or figure or, whatever it is that's being, commemorated was important to this site for some reason.
00:18:12:17 - 00:18:33:08
Speaker 1
Right? So it's grounded in this site, but it extends beyond that one moment in time in this kind of legacy of engaging with the issue. So for the Harriet Tubman Monument, we thought about just a legacy of liberation, you know, and so we in the community engagement process, we engage with people around, like, what does liberation mean to you?
00:18:33:11 - 00:18:57:03
Speaker 1
You know, is it just that you were able to make it out of the house on time this morning, or, you know, something greater? We have all of us have kind of multiple, ways of engaging with this idea of liberation. And so if you can engage with this topic of liberation around Harriet Tubman, you can connect with her on this theme and in small ways.
00:18:57:03 - 00:19:15:16
Speaker 1
So the legacy becomes living. It's not static. And then that becomes a community space again, a space of connection within, within your neighborhood. So again, we included stories of the people in Newark who were working at the time of Harriet Tubman. Right.
00:19:15:16 - 00:19:22:08
Speaker 2
Who is who was really the leader of the Underground Railroad, bringing slaves from the South to the free north.
00:19:22:10 - 00:19:48:19
Speaker 1
Exactly. And, you know, she wasn't from Newark, but there were people who are doing this work all across the northeast. So how could we ground it in the place of Newark by expanding the story of Harriet Tubman to include the stories of those who are part of the black liberation movement? At the same time, the local, you know, carriage drivers who hid people in their stagecoaches.
00:19:48:21 - 00:20:05:16
Speaker 1
so that becomes a kind of the legacy is not just about one person. Right? We understand that her work was a community work, and it the community supported her. And, we create a community space from a monument, not just a singular object that you walk around.
00:20:05:18 - 00:20:27:17
Speaker 2
I love that because that's actually a very different way. I mean, a museum or, something that's monolithic, you know, not that museums always are, but like, often times that is the case when you go, it's one, one thing. And what you're talking about is embedding education and culture and history into something that actually can just also be enjoyed as a park.
00:20:27:17 - 00:20:28:12
Speaker 2
Period.
00:20:28:14 - 00:20:28:22
Speaker 1
Right?
00:20:28:22 - 00:20:49:16
Speaker 2
Exactly. For all the things it's I'm, I'm curious to come back to education because you mentioned something about like you didn't learn about placemaking in school, right? And that wasn't that long ago. Although, we're the same age and that always like, it's it's shocking that it was as long ago. and but you've been a design educator, Nina, for 20 years.
00:20:49:16 - 00:21:15:21
Speaker 2
You've taught it, you know, Syracuse and Parsons and Columbia Graduate School of Architecture, etc.. we have about seven plus billion people on this planet at this point, and half of whom live in urban areas. And that is only that urbanization trend is only expected to continue to grow as the proportion of people also continues to grow, which is kind of crazy.
00:21:15:23 - 00:21:26:13
Speaker 2
What are you seeing in terms of placemaking in the higher education landscape right now? And what do you think needs to happen to prepare students for what's coming?
00:21:26:15 - 00:21:56:10
Speaker 1
I think we are doing a much better job. I've been teaching in the housing studio, for the last few years at Columbia's graduate School of Architecture, Planning and Preservation. And we are thinking about housing not only as individual buildings that, you know, support private residences, but actually as community spaces, right, that extend beyond your individual unit.
00:21:56:16 - 00:22:28:00
Speaker 1
What are community spaces, how does this extend into outdoor spaces? so that you're almost it becomes an extension of the city. You know, this becomes a kind of smaller pod, but not an insular pod, but one in which the community spaces maybe pull in people who don't live within those housing units and within those buildings into whatever community service spaces might be a part of this development.
00:22:28:00 - 00:23:00:20
Speaker 1
Right. So in terms of of placemaking, again, we're creating those opportunities in public for the residents in these buildings to connect with each other, but also connecting with their larger neighborhood and connecting with the neighbors beyond their immediate building. Right. whether it's it's how we're using the open spaces or whatever services might be embedded within the housing unit, that services the whole neighborhood.
00:23:00:20 - 00:23:11:21
Speaker 1
You know, it's really about, understanding the needs of the local, and responding to them kind of creatively and.
00:23:11:21 - 00:23:33:22
Speaker 2
That and I know that we've already established this, but what just struck me is these are houses where, especially in America, but all over the world, houses are like private. Right. And what you're talking about is ensuring that actually they are community, not, you know, as much as possible, they serve the community.
00:23:33:24 - 00:23:57:17
Speaker 1
So when it's the the project is housing, but these are apartment units, okay. For all intents and purposes, it might be developed to actually have like a townhome come you know, your opponent. But when we think of housing in the context of this design studio that we're teaching, it is, you know, primarily apartment high density.
00:23:57:17 - 00:23:57:24
Speaker 2
Yeah.
00:23:58:00 - 00:23:58:21
Speaker 1
High density.
00:23:58:21 - 00:24:01:18
Speaker 2
Exactly. Yeah. That depend on your sense.
00:24:01:20 - 00:24:22:08
Speaker 1
Exactly. But we're thinking about it not only as creating the best apartment unit for the individual unit, you know, dweller, but how do we understand it as an ecosystem and how wide how do we expand the understanding of that, that ecosystem that is, you know, the housing development.
00:24:22:08 - 00:24:54:08
Speaker 2
Makes perfect sense and and so well service to also if it can be done. Well, I'm curious when I google best examples of placemaking. the example that came up over and over and over again was New York City's Highline. I had the privilege of interviewing the co-founder and the fire starter on that, Richard Hammond, at the beginning of this year for episode three of season eight.
00:24:54:10 - 00:25:27:14
Speaker 2
we're now episode 18, so. Or something like that on third places. So not totally different from placemaking. And he did love the term third places for obvious reasons. But that's really what we're talking about for the Highline. I was trying to imagine what best case examples exist outside of the US, because so far placemaking feels like a very US centric field, even though I'm figuring that the rest of the world actually has been doing this for a lot longer than we have.
00:25:27:14 - 00:25:28:22
Speaker 1
Absolutely.
00:25:28:22 - 00:25:39:21
Speaker 2
What are some examples you love that you look up to, whether they're new or old or coming online soon? Sorry I knew I was about to put you on the spot. I didn't mean to.
00:25:39:23 - 00:26:08:13
Speaker 1
No no no those, those are good questions. And oftentimes they’re markets. So some of these things that I haven't visited yet you know like some of the, the German holiday markets and the whole ecosystem about that. Right. It kind of reflects on a long tradition that is grounded in that place. And it has different kinds of public space activities around it.
00:26:08:13 - 00:26:19:12
Speaker 1
So, you know, that's one great example that I can think of, you know, in terms of public space in, in Paris the Luxembourg Park.
00:26:19:14 - 00:26:21:10
Speaker 2
Absolutely.
00:26:21:10 - 00:26:52:20
Speaker 1
It's, it's again, another amazing space, very grounded in the architecture, the, the public space traditions of Paris. and oftentimes it's it's unique, right, because it's so grounded in the cultural traditions of the place and kind of doesn't exist in the same way somewhere else, right? Yes. those are some of the examples that come off the top of my head.
00:26:52:22 - 00:27:12:08
Speaker 2
It's great. I really appreciate because I think, yeah, I mean, it's it's it's fascinating to me because I think somehow, again, that urbanization and that urban blight became, it's very much and not an American, but an America's fast development problem. And it's happening elsewhere in the world where we have to slow down in order to speed up.
00:27:12:08 - 00:27:39:16
Speaker 2
I guess, I want to pivot before we wrap. Nina, you when you and I met at Grace farms, you were showing a piece of art that was absolutely beautiful. One of the examples of work that you sent me, is obviously this amazing metal sculpture called Lift that's in this sunken courtyard at Ara Saarinen's First Christian Church in Columbus, Ohio.
00:27:39:18 - 00:28:02:01
Speaker 2
there are a number of other art projects that you've taken on. And I know that's like your real passion and, and these days and in a lot of ways. Talk more, if you can, about that intersection between art and architecture in placemaking and you're kind of approach and vision for where that's going in the future outside of your own practice even.
00:28:02:03 - 00:28:40:04
Speaker 1
Yeah. So, I found that through my own practice, you know, the public art in, in terms of how we in our studio try to make it pieces that promote engagement. Right? So whether it is kind of whimsical installations like the one in, Columbus, Indiana, Lift, which was it's something that it's in conversation with the historic church, the first, Christian church, you know, really famous Eero Saarinen building.
00:28:40:06 - 00:29:05:18
Speaker 1
but in conversation with how the the congregation said, look, people don't come down into this courtyard space. You know, we want everyone to know that we are a welcoming congregation. People think that we're old and stuffy and old fashioned. We want people to know that, you know, we are a welcoming congregation. We have young families. Please come down into this courtyard space.
00:29:05:18 - 00:29:29:18
Speaker 1
People used to walk through the courtyard space when it was first built, when there was a connection between fourth Street and fifth Street. After an addition, the walk through connection, was gone. And so now people don't come down. So how do we create something that, you know, is grounded in the church, you know, reflects a kind of heavily gridded language of the building.
00:29:29:21 - 00:30:05:09
Speaker 1
But is also kind of playful, reaches up to the upper plaza so people can see it, pull them down there, and you can actually physically engage with it. And even if you're not walking in and through, you might sit back and watch. Right. And so, certainly the art is in conversation with the architecture, but we're using architectural tools of thinking about kind of form and relationship to create place in a way that's very unique to that particular, space of the sunken courtyard, as an example.
00:30:05:11 - 00:30:44:05
Speaker 1
and yeah, and so for me, it's kind of, you know, this way of allowing architecture to become way more kind of playful and engaging. Oftentimes we can do that, you know, even to a grander scale when it's temporary. Right? Like people don't have to worry about long term maintenance, blah, blah, blah, blah. so it has been a really great tool for us to to think about scale and the movement of body in space at the scale of the individual or collective people, you know, in a courtyard or in a plaza or in a market in a park.
00:30:44:07 - 00:31:05:04
Speaker 2
I love that, this went very quickly, as unfortunately, these conversations often do. in conclusion, as I ask every guest, you know, what's your greatest hope for the future of placemaking in 25 years, which would put us at about 2050?
00:31:05:06 - 00:31:38:07
Speaker 1
I would love that what we see is that placemaking is de rigueur. It's it's we don't even think twice about it. I see it's happening so much already, just in terms of how we're responding to airports no longer being these neutral spaces that are the same in every city that we go to. But, we go back to responding to the kind of cultural abundance that's within each locale.
00:31:38:09 - 00:31:52:23
Speaker 1
Instead of thinking about generic, generic pieces that need to fit together, you know, for every single location. Because then everywhere we go will look exactly the same.
00:31:53:00 - 00:32:13:05
Speaker 2
And Hallelujah, let's not, let's not say let sameness overtake our world anymore. Please. No. Nina Cooke John. Principal of Cooke John Studio and Design, thank you so much for joining us on Future of XYZ. It has been a real immense pleasure.
00:32:13:07 - 00:32:19:17
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for the invitation. It's been a great conversation and look forward to speaking with you again.
00:32:19:19 - 00:32:39:13
Speaker 2
for everyone watching, you can listen anywhere you get your favorite podcast and leave a five star review so others can find us. if you're listening and you didn't know, you can watch us on YouTube and everyone can follow Future of XYZ and iF Design on Instagram, LinkedIn, and everywhere else you get your social media.
00:32:39:13 - 00:32:43:22
Speaker 2
So thank you and we'll see you again in two weeks time. Nina, thanks again.
00:32:43:24 - 00:32:46:04
Speaker 1
Thank you. Bye.