Subscribe
Share
Share
Embed
The Curious Roots podcast digs deep in the living earth of our personal, familial and communal lives to help us understand how we exist in the world today. Though the format of the podcast may vary from season to season, be it narratives, one-on-one interviews or panel discussions, the root line is the same. What are the stories from our family and community histories that travel with us into the present? How do we understand and work with these histories as both individuals and as collectives to create the world of now and the future?
Season one of the podcast begins with the maternal story of my own curious roots, still buried, but breathing and holding fast in Harris Neck, Georgia. Each week, in six short form episodes, I’ll share the story of my mother’s people and how it informs my life today.
Curious Roots is hosted by Michelle McCrary and is co-produced by Moonshadow Productions and Converge Collaborative.
Archival Audio
Margaret Baisden White: Testing. Testing. November 8th, 2002.
Robert Thorpe: Okay. Now, where I said we are, we are really close from the Thorpes, Because you know, your, your grandma Effie was a Thorpe.
Margaret Baisden White: She was?
Robert Thorpe: That's what I said.
Margaret Baisden White: See I didn't get any information.
Robert Thorpe: Okay. Umm, um, oh, anyhow this is why we come to be kin! Eddie Thorpe, old man Eddie Thorpe.
Margaret Baisden White: Yeah, I heard of that.
Robert Thorpe: That's his daughter.
Margaret Baisden White: Oh I didn't know that.
Robert Thorpe: Van.
Margaret Baisden White: Yeah?
Robert Thorpe: and Eddie.
Margaret Baisden White: Those two? But I know……
Michelle McCrary: Welcome to Curious Roots. This is Michelle McCrary and before we jump into the second part of my interview with Adolphus Armstrong from the Low Country DNA Project and Ujima Genealogy, I just want to tell you a little bit more about the voices that you heard at the top of this episode. What you heard is a recording my grandmother made with her cousin the late Bob Thorpe. In this moment, he is revealing to her that her great grandmother Ethel “Effie” Proctor is not a Proctor, but a Thorpe and that she is the daughter of Old Man Eddie Thorpe and Van. Now I am still trying to piece together the trail that leads me back to this information that Cousin Bob revealed to my grandmother.
I have some inklings, I have some suspicions, I have some working theories, but what I can say is that this connection is not only on our family tree but also in the family DNA. So I will, of course, keep you posted on what I find out about, um, Ethel “Effie” Proctor's true parentage. I am hoping to gather more information over the coming weeks.
I'm pouring over census records. I'm picking the brains of my relatives and elders to figure out how Old Man Thorpe and Van got together, what was happening with the family at that time, um, you know, where they were living, all those things. So I'm hoping to share everything that I find in my kind of like detective journey with you, um, on the website, CuriousRootsPod. com and if I get it together, I'll post some things on Instagram at Curious Roots Pod. Please don't forget to rate, review and subscribe to Curious Roots on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and iHeart Radio and wherever else you get your podcast goodness. Um, all those things really help and I would love to get some feedback from you all.
What do you want to hear more of? Um, do you have your own stories that you want to share? All that stuff would be really cool to hear. Um, if you don't have social media or anything like that, you can also email me at curious at curious roots pod. com. Please, please enjoy the second half of my interview with Adolphus Armstrong.
And again, so much for listening.
Adolphus Armstrong: And, and the one thing I want to stress to your listening audience is that this is something that is unique. To our people keep in mind to kind of put this in perspective is that while we were denied 40 acres and a mule at the same time, our government, the United, the government of the United States of America were using the homestead acts was granting 160 acre land grants in the West and Midwest at the same time. So in terms of what our connection to the land is that, again, if individuals coming, you know, European passage recumbent United States are being granted 160 acres. And they have not contributed anything to the foundation, the wealth and economic well being of the United States of America.
Kind of gives you an idea as to, you know, what our people, our ancestors have contributed. Because one of the things, an example that I always use is that I grew up on that coast of Georgia. You're driving from, Between Darien and Brunswick. And between Darien and Brunswick, you know, you're going over Butler Island.
And you look to the left, you look to the right, and you notice you see these straight lines, where those rice fields, rice paddies used to be. And you know, there is not, nature does not move in straight lines, and so when you look out, And I'm literally getting a chill just recalling the first time the thought hit me is that you have to think in your mind's eye is that our ancestors created those straight lines that we still see in nature today.
And if you know anything about the coast is that they were working under terrible, miserable conditions to do that work. And so just something, you know, to kind of think about in that it's not just land when you factor in what they had to do to acquire the land. And you, it's almost like you can't separate that struggle from your DNA because as you start to go through the census records and literally start to see family groupings and you see the household for your grandmother and a couple households down, you might see the oldest son, oldest daughter, and them start to build their families. And so that's one thing that I think that's so critical.
In terms of us understanding our connection with the land is that once you have that land, you're talking to some of the, um, your seniors in the, you know, community, that's something that kind of really, you know, you know, stuck with me is that. As they were especially for the individuals that grew up, you know, during the Great Depression, they would literally share, especially in Harris neck is that we had everything we needed everything.
The only thing that we needed was gas. Outside of that, we had everything we needed. So one of the things some of the younger Jim and my father's generation would say, You can't hard time somebody up from these woods and that we got a gun, we got a fishing pole, we got a net, we're gonna make a way out of no way because we can do it like that.
So those are just some of the things that, um, you know, want people to kind of keep in mind is that those two are intricately linked in terms of, you know, what our connection to the land is. And unfortunately, you know, we've had some challenges in terms of maintaining, you know, those land holdings, but that's definitely something that we need to focus on, especially in light of the continuing fight that's happening with trying to get that land back.
And Harris Neck, one of the things that we've noticed, is that it literally looks like the government is attempting to wait everyone out based on having everyone passed away like you're, um, Mary Moran, your Kenneth, uh, Kenneth Dunham, uh, Chester Dunham, you know, the Evelyn Greer, you know, these individuals have passed on and it, I can literally liken it to what I'm seeing happening in Tulsa.
I think the last living survivors, like maybe 106, 107. So it's like, it's not as if, you know, these instances are examples of things that have taken place within people's lifetimes and no action is being taken place. It's literally an issue of the government, in my humble opinion, waiting these people out to die so that they can literally continue to push it under the rug and not address these issues.
Michelle McCrary: Thank you for that. And thank you for making those, those connections. And I think that when you think about land, and you think about, you know, This particular Black folks and our connection to this land in the country, it's so complicated because you were talking about how they were issuing these land grants to issue those land grants, they had to remove.
The Indigenous people who were there, and they removed the indigenous people from the areas where our people were in Georgia so that they can make way for, you know, this, this plantation industry economy. And I wanted to ask you this because I know we're both reading this book. Um, I think it's called The Half Never Told.
And, um, I just wanted to ask you, as you've been reading that book, what are some of the things that are connecting for you, um, like what you're finding in that book, and how do you see it kind of like connecting things in your work, in your research, um, about our families in coastal Georgia?
Adolphus Armstrong: Oh, again, I highly recommend the half that's never been told by Edward Baptist, is that is a phenomenal book.
And one of the things I think that as you read through that book, and you watch the expansion of slavery, you know, moving further, you know, from Georgia, as they start to develop Alabama, Mississippi, effectively, you know, going out to Texas and making an attempt to massively expand slavery is that I think the example that I noted earlier in that We're finding DNA matches whose family lower as far as they are aware of starts and say in Alabama, or starts in a Kentucky, or starts in Texas.
That is an example of. What you're seeing or what we're seeing in the half has never been told in terms of those slave trafficking routes going, you know, from the deep south, and as they start to migrate out, our DNA is an example, a living example of those migration patterns. I'm not even gonna say migration patterns.
That's an example of our ancestors being trafficked to those, you know, areas. That's the thing that it’s difficult to kind of wrap your mind around in that you see that you read it in a book, but once you start to have that in your mind's eye, and that's the lens you start to look at your DNA matches and results, you literally start to see how what you're reading in that book.
Expresses itself today in your lived experiences and these people that are your DNA relatives in that they are examples of what happened during throughout that traffic, you know, history of our people and it is just. It's mind blowing in that, you know, as he delves into it, and you literally see what the enslavers were doing in terms of you get some land, the land is not valuable to you unless the land is productive, and you need enslaved labor to make that land productive.
And one of the tactics that they would do is that they would borrow a lot of money, go to a bank, obtain some money, buy some slaves, and if for whatever reason things aren't working out and they, uh, potentially risk default on the loan, as opposed to letting the bank grab the collateral, because keep in mind is that our folks are considered chattel property.
What they would do is that they would literally close up shop and move your slaves, say, from Alabama or Mississippi, if you're having problems, and you take them to Texas. In the middle of the night pack up is going to take a while for the bank to figure out where I am. And you go to Texas and you get another loan with another financial institution.
It's like speculation like that literally helped to create a number of bank panics. And, you know, Edward Baptist does now highlight that, you know, in his books. And so those are just some of the things for us to think about. Cause I think at the end of his book, he notes that the physical value attached to the bodies of our ancestors was more valuable than then all the industry in the United States, be it the railroads, mining entrance, agricultural, land, everything, the value encapsulated in the bodies of our ancestors was worth more than all of it.
And the reason why it was worth more than all of it is that these assets were not productive without our hands. And so that's the thing that really, you know, still resonates and in certain sense, it haunts me to this day, you know, but I still recommend everyone to read that book because you could at that point literally start to tie your DNA results to the arc of history.
Michelle McCrary: Thank you for sharing that. I was so curious as to your thoughts. I am still making my way through the book and I just started to kind of you know, move around some chapters and go back and reread some because it is, uh, it's a dense book, but it's worth reading, um, for all those reasons you listed. And also something that struck me is the mentality of the traffickers and the mentality of those folks who did all this trafficking and colonizing.
Um, it's like there was no consideration of living in some kind of harmony and reciprocity with the land and our ancestors understood that way of life of living in harmony and reciprocity with the land. And I think you see that with the communities that are, you know, that remain and are fighting to remain.
On the spaces in coastal Georgia, it’s a different kind of orientation to the land. And you mentioned Evelyn Greer. She was my grandmother's cousin and I was fortunate enough to meet her when she was alive. And the way she talked about. The bounty of Harris Neck, as far as like, you know, the trees and the plants and the animals and all those things.
I feel like, you know, that mentality of that kind of deep, almost spiritual connection to the land remains with our people, but that other mentality that you talk about of using the land and making it productive and kind of like, you know, dominating the land. exists and all these folks trying to build these luxury communities and, you know, golf courses and all those things.
So I, that is leading me to ask you, I know you're very involved in the things that are going on, on Sapelo, and you have probably some insight to the things that are going on, um, on St. Helena. So could you just talk a little bit about what's going on and kind of that the challenges that are happening right now.
And, you know, what people are doing to try to fight this off,
Adolphus Armstrong: Michelle, I wish I could say that I'm more involved than I am right now. But, um, you know, at this point, my, um, impact has been limited to, you know, making a few phone calls and trying to share some information on social media. But we've definitely got to get, you know, a lot more involved than, you know, where we are right now.
And I think, you know, again, in my opinion, again, this is just me, not, you know, Ujima or Low Country DNA Project, but me as an individual, is that the reason we are where we are is that You'll notice from Baptiste's book is that the wealth that was generated travels in families, and unfortunately the poverty that was generated due to the extraction of wealth, and then, you know, subsequent government policies that either extracted wealth directly or Or denied opportunities to build wealth that poverty still lives in our families today, and that as these individuals, you come in and again it's a profit motive, especially for you think about, I think, um, there's an article that came out.
For the families that benefited from the 160 acre land grants. I think the estimate was that there are 40 million white Americans alive today who descend from families who benefited from those land grant tracks. And one of the things that you have to think about is that, you know, what was your start in the United States? Making the land productive at all costs. And if that meant enslaving a fellow human being, so be it. And as you eloquently noted, that mentality still remains with us today in terms of our people. Um, the story that you shared with Ms. Evelyn Greer, I heard everyone that I interviewed from that generation of the Harris neck, That is the theme that you will hear is that we did not want for anything.
And based on everything that I've seen, read. In interviews, the relationship with the land was sacred, and I just can't underscore enough in that we knew that if we took care of the land, the land would take care of us. But as we, as I jump back into the point about the poverty still being with us, you know, what invariably happens is that a developer will come in, ask some questions, and literally make an attempt to try and figure out For individual or to select an individual in that family who is experiencing a hard time and make an attempt to try and buy them out.
And unfortunately, with us, we do not have a widespread enough instance of our ancestors creating wheels. And actually telling the succeeding generations what should happen with the property with us. We are in the catch 22 of this heirs property, you know, situation where literally all it takes is one weak link in that heir.
Situation for some developer to come in and buy that particular air out and now they have standing within the airs property. And because of the fact that they are coming in with money. I can almost tell you 99 percent of us do not have the financial wherewithal to lawyer up. and fend these people off.
And so in terms of, you know, what I'm seeing is that we've got to literally educate individuals because I don't think people, unless you've done your family history and research, you don't understand how hard and difficult a struggle it was for our ancestors to obtain the land and then to understand, you know, what that land afforded them in terms of their independence and ability to have some sort of agency.
In their lives. And so, you know, in conjunction with that is that we need to start having hard conversations in these families and the families, especially the ones that are left. And that for the land that is left, if someone has clean and clear title, you need to go ahead and, you know, draft yourself off a wheel and determine what happens to your land after you're gone.
And that the thing that drives me crazy is that when I hear some of the younger people, primarily, unfortunately, of my father's generation, is that I'm, I don't, I won't be here. What do I care? Is that, that is so antithetical to the, our ancestors who were enslaved, who worked these labor contracts. few dollars a month to buy that land.
They did that so we would have a legacy. And at least based on the families that I'm directly descend from, is that it's that generation and the children's generation that purchased the land that we still have today. Is that when I look at the succeeding generations? In terms of significant land acquisition, that's when it stopped at those individuals.
So I think personally, it would be literally a slap in the face, not to honor the sacrifice that they made for us to make an attempt to keep the land. In the family so that what was passed on to us and giving us an opportunity to potentially to do something and live on the land, your planter, you know, own garden, you know, that is something that's central to having a productive asset in these United States of America.
So again, it's difficult for individual because you have to have that hard conversation. And that more families have got to do it. And one thing that I have seen, and I think, um, one of the great examples was Dr. Abraham McIntosh. Um, he is one of the, no, he is the largest, or at the time of his death, he was the largest Black landowner in McIntosh County.
And I think he had over 400 plus acres. I think he employed a land trust to protect, you know, land that his grandfather acquired after the Civil War in conjunction. Excuse me of obtaining land from former leading. enslaving families. And so those are just some of my thoughts. But the other piece of it is in terms of just sharing the information, do your family history research, and then share it.
Unfortunately, we don't have a situation where individuals can, you know, come back home for a family reunion, sit under the big oak tree, and listen to the stories to understand the connection. And I think that's the part that we're going to have to leverage with your podcast and other social media venues to get that information out.
So people learn their history and know their connection to this fantastic history that we have that's unique to our people.
Michelle McCrary: Yes. And thank you again for laying that all out for folks. Um, what I'm hearing is Find your people, find your connections, get a will together so you can eliminate all these weak links who, um, again, you don't want to shame anybody because it's hard out here, it's hard out here, and especially, as you said, when we're starting at an intentional deficit, um, financially, and in this system, you need, uh, you know, Money in a certain kind of way, but land trusts coming together to kind of, you know, protect the culture and the land because there's also an environmental piece to it.
Um, it's an environmental protection. And so if you're on a coastal, in a coastal area, and you have natural barriers from the islands and from the marshes and from, you know, all the flowers and plants and flora and fauna, and you come in there, so you can have a golf course. One good storm, all that stuff is gone.
And you know, with the way that the climate is changing, one good storm. And so I feel like it behooves people to also understand
Adolphus Armstrong: Michelle.
Michelle McCrary: Oh go ahead.
Adolphus Armstrong: No, I was going to say you are so absolutely correct and right in your assessment because I will tell people is that if you don't think Black people have been good stewards, all throughout the years.
Look, help me look up and find out an instance where you have Black people being in an industrial scale polluter anywhere in the United States. Help me find it. I'm looking.
Michelle McCrary: Yes, exactly. This is and thank you for saying it like that, because that is exactly what I was warming up to. This is my rant. Um, as I observe, you know, not only what's happening in coastal Georgia, but if you look at a place like Louisiana, Louisiana.
And you look at what's happening down there, and there's a really great, uh, podcast done by the folks who, um, do work with the Whitney Plantation, and they talk about how a lot of these industrial polluters and these big chemical companies are on the actual land of former plantations. And the former plantation owners sold the land and probably made beaucoup dollars from these big industrial chemical people and the surrounding communities of Black folks.
Are that the, the, you know, relatives of the formerly enslaved and all those folks are living in these places that they call like cancer alley. And so, you know, to bring it all back to the book that we were both reading to Edward Baptist book, it, you could see it today. You could see what happens to the land.
What happens when you abuse it and you still are carrying this like, you know, human trafficking plantation on mentality to the land and I just you know I can't convince those people who have that mentality and I have no interest in convincing people who have that of the that's not my Demographic my demographic is our people And people who need to kind of understand these connections.
So again, thank you so much for, for, you know, putting it that way. Cause that's exactly what it is. We have been good stewards and, um, reading Edward Baptist's book and see all these connections. I don't, my goal to your point is to reach our folks. So that they can understand these connections because the people who have the mentality of these traffickers and plantation owners, they still have that mentality today and, and I, they're not the ones that I think either of us are talking to.
We're talking to our people. So, you know, the knowledge is power so that you understand kind of the long arc of what our ancestors started to move against and fight against. And it's kind of like, you know, our struggle today.
Adolphus Armstrong: Yeah, absolutely. One of the things that I wanted to, um, kind of share with you and your listening audience is that contrary to what we've been told is that there is absolutely nothing intrinsically wrong with Black people.
We're literally experiencing a situation where your government has been weaponized against you generation after generation. And to, um, kind of put a pin in it for me is that I'm focused in on the DNA and also the economics as to where we are in that I live in the metro Atlanta area. The wealth inequality nationwide, Black people or white households have seven times the wealth as a Black household in Atlanta.
It's to the extreme in that in the metro in Atlanta, a white family has 46 times the median wealth of a Black household. And some additional stats, if your listening audience has an opportunity, go check out the color of wealth report so you can Google it. And these are just some quick stats is that in Boston, the median net worth of a Black household, and this is a few years ago, but it was 8.
I'm not eight dollars compared to in Boston for a white family, 247, 000. So you start to see the discrepancy there. And another example, that's median net worth. Now, another. Point is liquid assets. That's money you can quickly grab to potentially get out of town to escape a hurricane in the city of Boston, a Black family.
And again, this is U. S. Black family. Individuals who effectively trace themselves back to chattel slavery, like our people do is that you have liquid assets of 670. Does it particularly help you much of the engine or transmission goes out in your car? But the thing to note is that in Miami, the liquid of the Black family has 11 liquid.
So when we're watching what happened in Katrina, and I could dare say, if they did a study, In New Orleans at the time, you would get a similar statistic for Black people in New Orleans, is that if Miami, you have 11 in liquid assets. 11 is not going to put a lot of gas on your car to escape a hurricane.
So what we're living today is a culmination of everything that's happened to our people. Nothing wrong with us, but we got work to do to make sure that we realize our ancestors dream. And that dream is for us to get our just due and to be able to live in peace, in harmony, in a country. That we built, our ancestors built.
Michelle, I appreciate you and Curious Roots is the podcast. If you need something to enrich your soul and give you something to cuckle about, I appreciate you. Thank you so much.
Michelle McCrary: Thank you so much, Adolphus, and I'll make sure to have links to Ujima Genealogy, and if you want to just tell people very quickly where can they find you on social media and how they can get their folks tested for the Low Country DNA Project.
Adolphus Armstrong: Yeah, you should be able to find us on Facebook and just send me a comment in there, a quick post or a DM to, um, Ujima Genealogy. And that's probably the easiest and most efficient, but if you want to reach me directly, my email is aarmstrong3649 at gmail. com. Thank you so much.
Michelle McCrary: Thank you, Adolphus.
Thank you so much for listening to Curious Roots.
Learn more about Harris Neck at harrisnecklandTrust. org and find out more about their work with the African American Redress Network at RedressNetwork. org. Learn more about Black coastal communities from North Carolina to Florida at gullahgeecheecorridor.org. You can support Gullah Geechee communities on St.Helena and Sapelo Islands by following Protect St. helena@protectsthelena.com and Saving Our Legacy Ourselves SOLO at saving our legacy ourself.org. All links are in our show notes. Thank you to my relatives who are now with the ancestors Ms. Mary Moran. Cousin Evelyn Greer, cousin Bob Thorpe, cousin Chester Dunham, my father Rodney Clark, my grandfather Rufus White, and my grandmother, Margaret Baisden White.
Season two of Curious Roots is produced by Moonshadow Productions and with the generous support of Converge Collaborative. Thank you so much for listening.