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Exploring how humans connect and get stuff done together, with Dan Hammond and Pia Lee from Squadify.
We need groups of humans to help navigate the world of opportunities and challenges, but we don't always work together effectively. This podcast tackles questions such as "What makes a rockstar team?" "How can we work from anywhere?" "What part does connection play in today's world?"
You'll also hear the thoughts and views of those who are running and leading teams across the world.
[00:00:00] Dan: We're often asked to come and help a team to connect better or perform better. The surprising thing we discover in many cases though, is that it's not a team at all. It's a TINO, a team in name only. In this compact episode, we answer a listener question about TINOS so that you can see if you are in one, and if so, what you can do about it.
[00:00:26] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Be the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.
[00:00:33] Pia: And I am Pia Lee.
[00:00:34] Dan: And Pia, this is a q and a episode. So, um, this is very exciting and nice
[00:00:39] Pia: from the listeners. I said listeners, not listener. There's not just one listener sending in a question that
[00:00:46] Dan: we have a question and it is actually a different person. This is amazing. So, so they've both contributed now. So, um, so it's,
[00:00:54] Pia: two out there.
[00:00:56] Dan: So it's back to you, Jamie, for the, for the, for the next one. Yeah. I've just taken turns. That would be great. Um, um, actually I did see we've hit a very large number of downloads this week, which is really good. So we've hit one of our milestones, so it's very nice.
[00:01:08] Dan: So anyway, great to have. All you listeners listening in. Thank you. And these, these q and a episodes, they're short and they are to the point because they're answering questions. So let's just dive straight in.
[00:01:21] Pia: What is the question?
[00:01:22] Dan: The question is from friend of the show, Justine Cooper. Um, and the question is, Squadify talks about TINOS, teams in name only. What approaches have you seen work well when there are individuals in a real team that are still working in a TINO, ie focused on individual objectives and KPIs way? So this is, um, this is a great one and this is probably number one topic for us, isn't it? When we meet a team very often, they are a team in name only.
[00:01:50] Dan: Um, so, um, why don't we, Pia, where have you seen this? particularly? Let's start, start talking about that. Uh, just quick look at
[00:01:58] Pia: Well, gosh, where do we start? So, um. So many teams that we work with are not teams at all. And that's why we call them team, TINOs. Team in name only. And what we mean by that is that they are a group of individuals often working, on their own KPIs. They are, they don't have a collective goal that they have delivered together. Um, and they dunno how to work together and where the interdependencies are. And of course, that Squadify question, understanding how to work together has the biggest correlation with performance and has a threshold, um, of a score that needs to be passed before we see, um, performance consistently rising.
[00:02:39] Pia: So. What do we mean by this? So let's give an example. Many exec teams that we work with are functional silos and they are in a reporting cycle rather than a number one team. Um, as let's say, would put it number one team as the enterprise team, and that's often not the case. So they're coming at it from a functional position, and that's quite a protectionist position, and then joining a group.
[00:03:12] Dan: it's sort of a, a position of expertise. They've got that thing. And let's face it, they have that job to do. If you're the head of marketing, you're head of sales, you are the chief technology officer, you better be doing your job vertically. But in a way, I'm sort of seeing a T shape, I think, uh, more than Hanson loads of people to talk about this ts shape, that you have that downstroke, that's really important.
[00:03:32] Dan: You better do your job. However, that is a thinner line than the top line, which says, how do I connect with my upward team, you know, in that case, the CEO's team, let's say, so that the CEO's job, the company job is united because what we, we see so many times that particularly when we're talking about top teams, the organization is siloed because that top team is siloed.
[00:03:55] Dan: It's literally built in that top team. But if you can say no, my main job, as you say, my number one team is. Not the team that reports to me, but the team that I am of my peers. You've then got a joined, joint top team and you've got a better chance of having a joined organization, um, while still tending to your functional needs.
[00:04:14] Dan: That is your, that has to be your focus. Put the big hat on, I think. But I would add, I've seen this very strongly, obviously in sales teams where people have. Separate territories, separate clients, it can look very separate. Um, but also HR teams is another example. Uh, there are many, but they've all got, even marketing teams, let's say HR has l and d OD comp and Ben, you know, their expertise is, and they need to be functional expert experts, but they've gotta have that sort of thicker stroke at the top.
[00:04:45] Dan: Same with marketing teams, functional expertise. So yeah, it's everywhere. It's a danger. And as you say, the, the way to understand this, to go back to the question of what a team is, and it's three things. One, it's more than one person tick it. They have a shared goal and you have interdependence in achieving it.
[00:05:04] Dan: So, um, those things that, what the things you need to work on. Let's jump into Justine's question, and I'm gonna hand over to you here 'cause this is, this is a really good one. What do you do where you find a team that's sort of a real team? It is a team, like one of those we discussed, but still the behaviors are TINO behaviors individualistic functional, one-to-one individual KPIs? What are the sort of practical steps that you can take to make that shift?
[00:05:31] Pia: So with the teams that we've been working with, we've seen the real value of creating. What used to be the old fashioned team charter. Um, but defining clearly what is a collective sense of a reason why you're together, the purpose, um, a collective goal, your vision, and then the strategy, the cross-functional that will require you to work together to, to deliver on that.
[00:05:59] Pia: So that's really, really important. And, and you know, we could be a little bit cheeky here. Lencioni has got these five dysfunctions of a team, of which. He would advocate. The trust is the, is the, is the foundation element of a team. Uh, we would challenge that and say there's, there's a six dimension and in today's, you know, precarious world, um, ever changing clarity is that six dimension.
[00:06:26] Pia: Because otherwise, if you don't have that sense of that collective goal of where you're going and how to operate, then you are just gonna fall back into TINO-hood. Cause the system you're often working in is putting the pressure on you to deliver as individuals through your own KPIs.
[00:06:42] Dan: And, and particularly where you might have a sort of head of your function wanting to, wanting to answering questions. I think there's a simple way of describing this as well. What is a shared goal? Well, if you've got a sales team of 10 people each with a million dollar.
[00:06:57] Dan: Target on their territory. That's the vertical one. What is the most important goal? Is it the 1 million or is it the 10 million? You know, that's, it's a mindset thing. Say what? What is my main obsession? Is it about that team level? And there are quite a few questions in Squadify that sort of start to sort of explore this, you know, team over individual, et cetera.
[00:07:16] Dan: So I think that's the first one, isn't it, is getting that shared goal, not just a sum of individual goals. Then if we'd look at interdependence, Peter, you've sort of, you've mentioned those cross team strategies. What, what are things that work to drive that interdependence that, you know, I'm, you and I are team members reporting into someone, how do I see you and how do I, how do we build that, that interdependence between us and all the other team members?
[00:07:44] Pia: I think that what happens sometimes is that in, in meetings and particularly at exec teams, it becomes quite a, a very, hard and fast swim lane and people report out on their function. And what we don't ever get is the, the, is the, is the top level view of how the business is working. And at enterprise leadership, you should be able to see the different aspects.
[00:08:08] Pia: You don't necessarily have to be. Involved in some of them, but you should have an oversight and, and, and transparency of the whole enterprise. So sometimes with the teams that work with, we've moved them to an agile way of working so that they can have a way of linking the work that they do to the strategies that drive the vision.
[00:08:31] Pia: So it's. It's now, it's an and here. So it's quite sophisticated and you are going to have to deliver on your KPIs 'cause that's probably what you're being
[00:08:41] Pia: paid for and what you're hired for. And as a leadership element, whether you're an enterprise team or any other, any other leadership team, you are responsible for that cross-functional delivery and the overall outcomes.
[00:08:55] Pia: So a way of doing that, as I say, is having Agile, um. Breaking, breaking the, the task down, aligning them to the strategies and using a time box method to be able to track them. Um, and we found that to be incredibly, that's taken a lot of the strain out of the, the friction, almost competition that can happen between individuals and made it much more collaborative.
[00:09:18] Dan: I think these are classic signs that you have a TINO at this inter interdependence level, as you say, team meetings and the leadership of the leader, team leader is hub and spoke. It's sort of, you know, we're in a meeting, could you report out on your, on what's happening? CIO report out, marketing, report out.
[00:09:37] Dan: You know, it's very much back. It's sort of as one of my client said it's a public one-on-one. That's a sign you've got a TINO. And then as you say, the next one is, do you have transverse strategies or at the top team level, do you have a marketing strategy and a technology strategy? No, they should be transverse and also more that makes them more customer centric 'cause they're actually solving problems externally rather than serving functions.
[00:09:59] Dan: So I think they're two classic, as you say, they're two classic signs and agile. Is just, you know, light, practical, agile is a great way, to solve the third problem, which is. Very rarely do we see teams with an actual way of executing together.
[00:10:14] Dan: You know, when we come to them, say, you know, they'll talk about actions around the table, say, what's, what happens to that action? Oh, you know, Mike's gonna pick that up, or, you know, whatever. no, and, and the visibility of those actions through Agile is really important.
[00:10:27] Dan: The health warning I put on that is I have seen some pushback on that because that level of visibility is sometimes challenging for people, right?
[00:10:35] Dan: So I've gotta say what I'm gonna achieve in this month and everyone's gonna see it and they're gonna know whether I've done it or not. There's a comfortable vagueness about not doing it that way. So, but I would encourage teams to push through. 'cause on the other side, as you say, is this release of this burden, this clarity, um, and the interdependence is gonna pay, pay dividends.
[00:10:53] Pia: And I'm seeing that actually that, it really takes a couple of weeks to get into the swing of things because then when you start to get the momentum and there's always ways that you can improve it, you start to get that sort of slight dopamine hit that you are achieving things and you're ticking stuff off.
[00:11:06] Pia: and and that, that, that, is actually, that's good for the whole collective health of the team. We're doing something together. Um, and that helps to build some of the interpersonal, um, relationships. And then I think there's another element here, which is the sort of psychological safety. So TINOs are sometimes TINOs because people don't feel safe and they're trying to, it's again, they're trying to protect their, protect their corner.
[00:11:29] Pia: So I think that's a key element where the, you know, the, the, the leader really is supporting a safe and inclusive and, and that. Individuals don't feel like they're having a finger pointed at them if they've failed, or it's not a safe place to share ideas. so, and I think that that brings a collective strength by, by being able to define and support that.
[00:11:52] Dan: Yeah. And I think it touches on the, um, for me, a sort of fundamental piece about working in teams, which is how does it feel, you know, they say it's tough at the top. It's generally tough everywhere at the moment, but do you ha feel you've got people at your side?
[00:12:08] Dan: You know, that's one of the joys of this is not going into that team meeting thinking, right? I'm the marketing person I've got, I've got to represent myself and I've gotta show 'em really. On top of things and, you know, and possibly as you say, be competitive against the others in state to say, oh, great, I'm going to the team.
[00:12:24] Dan: I'm with my buddies, I'm with the people who are at my side. We're doing things together. And I think it transforms the experience of work if you can, uh, if you can get to that point. And I think people, we observed this 10 years ago. found it, Squadify to try to solve it. It people are feeling isolated.
[00:12:40] Dan: It's fragmented and atomized, but that's, that's a big load on everyone. Whereas if you can see, look to your side, look to both sides and see there are people with you, it tr just transforms things and makes things, yeah, much more human, enjoyable.
[00:12:53] Pia: And the last part I would say is that teams often cite that they do that under a crisis situation. And, but you don't need to wait for a crisis. So the, the, the sort of, the intensity of that pressure brings everyone together and then they, they get a bit of the Dunkirk experience. They feel fantastic, and then, and then we all go back to our separate lanes again. And so it's trying to find this happy medium. You don't have to wait for a crisis. I mean, there will be crisis, but you, but but you don't need that to make a team. Um, instead actually, you wanna really be able to, to leverage the unique superpowers that everyone brings to
[00:13:25] Dan: true, true. true. true. Yeah.
[00:13:26] Pia: To, to, you know, to, to create, One plus one equals three, you know, to create a agra, a greater app output. So I think that's a, as a leader, that's thinking about, I mean, how, how do you create that?
[00:13:37] Dan: People always look back with nostalgia at these crisis things that, oh, we were such a great team, then you have to be able to do it outside that. And for any non British listeners, dunk Kirk is a reference to a great British defeat that we've somehow managed to engineer into being a great victory.
[00:13:53] Dan: Um, but, but that is it for this episode. We not me are is by Squadify. Squadify helps any team to build engagement and drive performance. You can find show notes where you're listening and at squadify.net. If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. We, not Me is produced by Mark Steadman. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.
[00:14:15] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.