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The must watch talk show for global supply chain professionals is now available as podcast. After each edition of the Supply Chain Talks we sit down with one of our guests and continue the conversation. Start listening while preparing lunch or take your podcast with you as you go on your daily walk.
Welcome to the supply chain talks podcast. My name is Sophie von Lenk, and in this season, the second season, I will dive into the world of sustainable container supply chains. As decision makers, cargo owners, and freight forwarders play a key role in boosting sustainability in the logistics chain. But how do you build a c02 neutral and at the same time resilient supply chain? And what are the possibilities and standout examples that exist today?
Sofie van den Enk:Reduce, replace, rethink is a concept that can be used as a strategy to decarbonize your supply chain. Each episode, I will dive into one of these three concepts with container industry experts. In this episode, we're talking with cargo owner Rico about Rethink. So Rico is a leading document management solutions provider, and I wanna know more about that in just a second, and is committed to sustainability. We'll discuss their innovative approach to reporting and rethinking their supply chain.
Sofie van den Enk:Joining me today are Martijn Spey and Martin Swin Swinerton from Ricoh's facility in the Netherlands, Berhoepsohn, that covers 5 50,000
Martijn Spee:8 soccer fields.
Sofie van den Enk:8 soccer fields of square meters and handles, 12,000 orders daily. You already heard Martijn a little bit, so that's that's a huge space. Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more about what it is that Ricoh
Martijn Spee:does? Yeah. My name is Martijn Spee, as you mentioned. I worked for Ricoh for 15 years. I'm a transport manager, so I'm responsible for the distribution in Europe.
Martijn Spee:And in Bergen Op Zoom, we have our European distribution center. And from that facility, we are delivering all across Europe. And what we do is that we are a manufacturer for Regions, but we're turning more into a service provider, IT service provider.
Sofie van den Enk:You're a leading document management solutions provider. Now what is that?
Martijn Spee:Yeah. I I think our our original products is is the copier machine. But now we everybody's using a copier machine, in a different way.
Martin Swinnerton:So it's
Martijn Spee:really we are selling document solutions by digitalizing your documents, feature, your, let's say, invoicing process, and the machines are still helping in the process by, for example, scanning papers into a digital environment.
Sofie van den Enk:Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So copier machine, we can understand, and we can also understand that the world is evolving and that the copier machine takes a different shape and form these days.
Sofie van den Enk:Martin, it's it's a bit confusing. We have Martijn and Martin. It's good to have you here too. What you also have been with Ricoh for 15 years.
Martin Swinnerton:Correct. Yeah. So, I'm Martin Swinerton. I work, as a business excellence manager for Ricoh Supply Chain. Originally from the UK, and I came over here.
Martin Swinnerton:And what I do over there is, I look after the compliance and a sort of risk management area of Ricoh. But also, we have quite a lot of projects running, so manage the project office for supply chain. And one of my, let's say, favorite, topics is actually sustainability. So I I run the program for supply chain, and that's where I'm a sort of partner in crime with Martijn, where we've been working for many years already on, reducing carbon emissions and sort of like you say, rethinking the way we do logistics.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. So and why do why is that one of your favorite topics? What what's so fun?
Martin Swinnerton:Well, because it's, I guess, it's an important topic. So, you know, especially in the world we live in, it's, like, a good way to contribute as a company to, sort of making the world a better place. And, we've had been quite successful. So rico, from its origin, is our founder, the founding principles. He came up with a, our founder, Kiyoshi Ishimura, in 1936 already defined, the principle of, love your neighbor, love your country, love your work.
Martin Swinnerton:And that very much lines up with the modern philosophy of CSR, which is, people, planet, and profit. Yeah. So, Yeah. It's it's an important topic for Rico and it's something that we're given a lot of space to work on in supply chain. It's a strategic theme as well for for Rico.
Martijn Spee:Mhmm.
Sofie van den Enk:Yep. Yeah. Great. It was very it's very interesting how things all sort of go hand in hand. That's exactly what we're trying to sort of discuss and discover in this podcast.
Sofie van den Enk:Like, how does that work? Because you guys can really help other companies get inspiration from from your experience, especially since you've been at this for so long and it's very much at the core True. The the the DNA of, of Rico. What what what drives this commitment? Is it really that that that DNA?
Sofie van den Enk:Or is it the changes in the world that you see today? Is the the opportunities the business opportunities that lie within them? Who which Martin Martin wants to take this one? Martin.
Martijn Spee:I think we have the strategy already for a long time. So I've to be honest, I believe, that that we were a little bit we're ahead. So so it's in our strategy already. This is at least in 2015. I think our CEO spoke in Paris in 2015 on the climate conference.
Martijn Spee:But we see now that it's getting more important from different angles. So the customers are requiring it more. We want to actually, the supply chain is is is 90% of our total footprint. So so it's really important to to take the rule. And next to that, there will become more and more and more governmental rules about it.
Martijn Spee:So, yeah.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. Because if you take if you look at it from from this risk perspective, it's also kind of a risk not to take this perspective
Martin Swinnerton:into account. I mean, when I joined Ricoh, I was really surprised to see it it was a company, a corporate organisation. It had an environmental division, like so they had, let's say, all over the world, people working on sustainable product design and processes, sustainable logistics. Mhmm. So it's kind of like, again, it's come from our DNA.
Martin Swinnerton:What Rico also does a lot of is, we we focus on circularity. So, obviously, we want to sell new machines to customers. What happens when the machine is end of life? We need to think about how to reuse that. So we have a lot of processes designed already for many, many years thinking about how to reuse parts, how to refill, for example, toner cartridges, and even remanufacture, machines to use them at other customers.
Martin Swinnerton:Wow. We call it the comet circle, concept. Yeah.
Sofie van den Enk:And and to to do that in a way that is still very, viable, for for business. Yeah. Of course, is is is very it's interesting. Martijn, your focus lies in the, transportation division. Obviously, we're in the port of Rotterdam, so we need to talk transport too.
Sofie van den Enk:Could you walk us through the the journey of one of your products, from manufacturing to final delivery?
Martijn Spee:Yeah. We we we are global. We're shipping on a global level. That's our our our manufacturing is based in Asia. So Japan, China, Thailand, they are our main factories.
Martijn Spee:We ship them for the European region, we ship them all to Rotterdam. We're talking about like 5,000 containers a year. They're going by big vessels. We ship them to Rotterdam and we collect 95% of the port of Rotterdam with barges to Bergen op Soe. Barge is an inland vessel.
Martijn Spee:And from there, we store it in the in the in the Bergenstein facility. And from there, we shipping it all across Europe. So by parcel, truck, by container, by rail, a lot of, if you go to Italy, for example, in Spain. And from there, we deliver it to dealers or to customers. So we have a big network of a lot of modalities, a lot of shipments.
Martijn Spee:And in the end, we also need to collect the machines again at the customers.
Sofie van den Enk:I was just going to say, because we talk about the circularity, you're you're now talking about new product coming in. But you also receive, products that have been used and that you want to, Yeah.
Martin Swinnerton:Yeah. We take back, to all of our machines. Once the end of contract, we bring them back and then we think about how to reuse, some machines we can't reuse because they may be just too old. So we will, let's say recycle them.
Sofie van den Enk:Mhmm.
Martin Swinnerton:We have some machines that we have, a wonderful site in Colmar in the Alsace in France.
Sofie van den Enk:Which is a nice place anyway?
Martin Swinnerton:Anyway. But they they, they have a remanufacturing process where we take thousands of devices and and remanufacture them into a product called Greenline.
Sofie van den Enk:What is that?
Martin Swinnerton:It's a fully remanufactured Ricoh printer, which is as new. Mhmm. But we try to reuse as many of the original parts as we can. So some of the key components are replaced.
Sofie van den Enk:Mhmm.
Martin Swinnerton:And for example, we wipe the, data so discs are cleaned and so on. But we can resell that as a new machine. Wow. Yeah. So a different sort of, marketing concept, And that this is it is part of our portfolio.
Martin Swinnerton:So if we have requests from, say, governmental organisation or different company for sustainable, device, then we can offer this as a product, which is more sustainable
Sofie van den Enk:Right. From its nature. Yeah. Yeah. And if you look at that from a transportation point of view, then that's different because you can't really operate in in bulk as much as you can with your regular
Martijn Spee:virgin Yeah. That's that's correct. So what we do, we also have local warehouses in in Europe, and that enable us to ship in bulk to these warehouses. But that's one way. And therefore, we use a lot of sustainable solutions, like road transportation.
Martijn Spee:But in the end, we also need to think of how to get the machines back. And for example, if we collect machines from the countries back to the Comor factory, we're using double deck trailers. So it can be 2 or 3 stacked in 1 trailer. So instead of using 1 or 2 trucks, you do only 1. So we're thinking of how to do that.
Martijn Spee:And we do that more in the last years. We even have also a program manager for this, who was one of our colleagues, really focusing on that. And that really helps.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah, Because how do you make transportation more sustainable? What specific actions are involved? Is that the mode of transportation mostly you think about?
Martijn Spee:Yeah, but it can also be more efficient. So increase your loading efficiency. That's very important. Make sure that you cooperate with your partners, that you reduce the empty kilometers, not only for yourself, but also for them. But yeah, modality is very important for us.
Martijn Spee:So don't ship, reduce your number of air shipments to, for example, to ocean. Reduce your number of road transportation to rail shipments. Reduce your service level, for example, for parcels from express to to standard service, which means that it don't fly, but it goes by road. All those kind of things Yeah. Are very important to do.
Sofie van den Enk:And how difficult is it to rethink a process when a company has been around for a while, then you carry your certain DNA, which can be good thing, but you're also trying to reshape things that have sort of turned into a certain way and this is how we do it. Correct.
Martijn Spee:Yeah. You you rethink, you need to rethink your rootings, your your gravity, where where your locations are. You need to rethink your your service level, so you need to engage with your with your customers. So saying, okay. The the world is changing, so we need to rethink.
Martijn Spee:We cannot ship everything on the highest service level, on the fastest way. We need to change that because the world is changing. We need to take responsibility with all
Sofie van den Enk:of us. But you mentioned that customers are also interested in this. So are they willing to to engage with you and to proactively think about it?
Martin Swinnerton:We're starting to to have that conversation now. So it's, you know, do you need to have it tomorrow or can we plan better and maybe deliver it in 3 days? So we don't need to air freight, for example, a toner
Sofie van den Enk:Right.
Martin Swinnerton:Through a, parcel network. We can use maybe the the the regular truck delivery. And as those trucks become more and more, maybe, electrified, then it becomes almost the possibility to deliver carbon neutral. Mhmm. So, yeah, customers are definitely interested also the way it arrives at customers.
Martin Swinnerton:So, we always get questions and remarks about packaging. Mhmm. And I think, we've all experienced receiving, you know, when we order pack, parcels online where you trying to find the thing you've ordered, and it's airbags and whatnot.
Sofie van den Enk:Yes. Hidden in a really big box.
Martin Swinnerton:So that's something we've worked really hard on to eliminate, those type of things from our delivery processes. Yeah. Yeah. And that's also initially we had, let's say, customers commenting, can you do this better and in a different way?
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. Yeah. Something that always really strikes me when you talk about sustainability and all the gains that you can make is how much collaboration is, involved or how how much value that actually brings to really think together. But how can how can we make this better? How can we because there might be blind spots for you as a provider that your customer can actually communicate to you and you're with, oh, this is great.
Sofie van den Enk:We can actually save and be more efficient. Yeah.
Martijn Spee:Yeah. It's it's in when I said it's important to to connect with your partners. So you need to make a strategy and make you need to make a road map, do it together with your partners and have the same strategy.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. So how how how do you organize that within Rico, Martin?
Martin Swinnerton:Like I mentioned earlier, it was a it is strategic topic, so that really helps. So if the board is asking, then you're likely to get things done.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. In the area. We need to get the board to ask it. Yeah. Yeah.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah.
Martin Swinnerton:So and and we have, like, sustainability is a global strategy of Rico. It's a European business strategy, and it's a supply chain strategy. So there's a big cascade of, you know, so we develop plans. We've been developing plans already from, you know, more than 10 years in this area. We have different, let's say focus areas, for example, carbon reduction and logistics.
Martin Swinnerton:We also have an area around, reuse of products.
Sofie van den Enk:Right. Yeah. And and in order to take those steps forward, I imagine it's it's it's crucial to have insight into where we touched on this a little bit already where can you optimize How do you measure your carbon emissions? Why is that measurement so vital?
Martijn Spee:You really need to get insight first before you can actually improve. So you need to know in what areas your footprint is higher compared to the other ones. So we do that on a yearly base. We started it in 2020. But we also use the software to recalculate the data as from 2015 because we still had the data.
Martijn Spee:And we saw that we reduced 22% since 2050 compared to 2020. And that's really great because in these years, we did a lot of things. I think we put 20% of our cargo on rail transportation compared to 2015. So So it's really good to see the result of your efforts. And we also have been rewarded by the leading green star, the first one.
Martijn Spee:So that's also in line with our strategy to really keep reducing To
Sofie van den Enk:get towards?
Martijn Spee:Yeah. Yeah. We are really now targeting a 4% reduction per year.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah.
Martijn Spee:And not only to because the for example, the trucks are getting better, so the emission per truck is is getting lower, but also because we already want to to do this 4% with our own decisions. So, making the model shift, being more efficient, those kind of things.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. And I imagine the 1st years of improving 4% are are sort of relatively easier because you then you can handle the low hanging fruit. But but now you're at the it's true. What's the opposite of low hanging fruit?
Martin Swinnerton:You can't move everything to rail. So, that's what we started with into, like, modal shift into railways. But then how do you, you know, then there's a little bit of a, like maybe a point on the horizon where technology needs to be Yep. Maybe more the answer.
Sofie van den Enk:Yes.
Martin Swinnerton:More green, transport modes, electrification, hydrogen power, those kind of things. We're and that's where we really need to collaborate with our carriers. You know, they they need to come with solutions and and ideas where we can have a go.
Sofie van den Enk:How, how about ocean freight? Because you mentioned, of course, that you can't move everything to rail. If you have a production in Asia, you're gonna want to also have ocean, freight. So what initiatives are is Rico undertaking to embrace
Martijn Spee:this Yeah. You you still really rely on the ocean freight. That that's that's the only possible possibility. So what what we do, we also invest in biofuel. So a portion of our containers are being, yes, offsetting of insetting this this cargo.
Martijn Spee:So so we are we saw with also with certificates that we indeed have a lower footprint with the same vessels. Mhmm. We really have strategies to keep the airfreight as minimal as possible, only do it by exception if we really have problems. And you see that also declining year by year. And on the other side, it's also very important that and that's the role of support of Rotterdam that you really have an efficient handling of the containers.
Martijn Spee:So for example, when you have 70% of your containers by barge to the inland terminal, you can really increase that by having an efficient port. And that's also where we are successful. And we keep increasing the number. So we're really aiming to have at least 95% of the containers by barge into into the inner terminal.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. Because if you're looking to improve each year those that that that 4%, obviously, you're looking at at your your your transportation over the ocean. But once you arrive in the port, that's where you can also save. What what roles what more possibilities are there
Martijn Spee:to No. I think it's important that you also need to rely on on the, on the innovation and the
Sofie van den Enk:and the, yeah, the tactic behind it.
Martijn Spee:You see that the vessels are ready new vessels are being built with more sustainable vessels. I think one is also doing that now. But also Port of Boston keeps need to invest in infrastructure. So, I hope that in the next coming years we can, for example, use electric trucks to collect a container. So if we need to collect it by truck, we can use those kind of vehicles.
Martijn Spee:But on the other hand, they need to be charged somewhere. So that's also important that that Port of Rotem is facilitating those kind of, innovations.
Sofie van den Enk:And are are they?
Martijn Spee:They are. I know that. So I I, I know that they are investing in electric, charging stations. But also, the infrastructure for the rail connections from, from Maersk Flakt is very important to to get containers into the mainland, even to Germany by rail. So that is important.
Martijn Spee:And also be in be, that you're in hospitality, I say, the
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. Hospitality. Yeah.
Martijn Spee:Hospitality for for the barges. So so that that barges want to come to your port to to collect containers.
Sofie van den Enk:Yes. You receive all your, shipments from Asia into Europe via Rotterdam. Why is that choice? Why is it Rotterdam for you?
Martin Swinnerton:It's the number one port. So basically, it's Europe's biggest port. We, yeah, we decided to put the logistics center of in Bergen op Zoom due to that fact that, you know, Rotterdam is the gateway to Europe.
Sofie van den Enk:Always nice to hear a non Dutch peep person say this. Yes. Thank you.
Martin Swinnerton:So so from that perspective, really makes sense, but also, you know, the connections between Rotterdam and Asia are, you know, also the best in Europe.
Martijn Spee:They're the first, ports. So did the vessels come directly from Asia into Rotterdam? Mhmm.
Martin Swinnerton:We have factories in Thailand, China, Japan. So we need those connections, directly. And, yeah, that's what Rotterdam offers. And it's only, you know, then an hour and a half max to bit Bergen op zone to the central point where we can distribute across Europe.
Martijn Spee:Yeah. Yeah. So to be honest, we we we are as close as Antwerp as Rotterdam. Yeah. So so why are we choosing Rotterdam?
Martijn Spee:So that's it's also mainly because of all the the IT infrastructure behind it, like port base. The connection with customs is very easy. And there is more capacity to collect from Rotterdam by barge. And indeed, what you mentioned, this is the first port for the vessel, but also for the outbound logistics. It's also the last port.
Martijn Spee:So for example, if you ship to to Africa, you always have the shortest lead time for Rotterdam because this is the last port before it sails to that region.
Sofie van den Enk:Right. So you're really looking for a place that, that does not, impose any extra effort. Like, you want everything to be smooth. So good data infrastructure, good transmission to barges that all those things help make this drive this decision and continues to make you want to choose Rotterdam.
Martijn Spee:Yeah. Our our our terminal in a terminal partner, they have they are doing the the most work for us. We just say to them, okay, these are our containers in an outbound, and they arrange it for us. And they can do that because they have the interface with the system. So they have fixed calls.
Martijn Spee:So it's really easy to get the containers to them.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. So there's there's certain time slots just always available through them. Yes. Okay. I get it.
Sofie van den Enk:And how, what percentage of emissions do you reduce through this intermodal, transportation?
Martin Swinnerton:Yeah. 20% in the first five years, Basically, so we did a 20%. We found huge. There's a lot. Yeah.
Martin Swinnerton:Yeah. So, you have a difference between basically rail and road.
Sofie van den Enk:Well, and of of course, that's part of of your job, Martin, to to predict sort of this this demand and ensuring this on time delivery, to customers and that's that's a very complex task because every customer is different and you want to deliver good service to every individual one. What are the challenges in in this area? What are people willing to put put up with for the environment or what would you see as
Martin Swinnerton:a challenge? We've designed a business which is like used to delivering next day service and
Sofie van den Enk:People got really
Martin Swinnerton:spoiled people get really spoiled and it's like when we order packets at home as well. We get them tomorrow. So, yeah, it's it's a challenge. And, I think with better predictive planning, we we, for example, on our devices, we can now predict remotely, when a toner is going to run out. So instead of, predicting that one day before, maybe we set the, you know, settings through 3 or 4 days, then we have more time to deliver a toe in a bottle.
Sofie van den Enk:And based on that information, do you also make, modality shifts? Like do you
Martin Swinnerton:Yes. So so that would mean that our, parcel carriers would not necessarily need to airfreight it. So they have big airfreight networks, but they could maybe move it through their road transport network or even with bike couriers. So, yeah, that kind of technology visibility Mhmm. Is really helping to change the way we do things.
Martijn Spee:Yeah. Yeah. For example, we're now also rethinking our our network to Poland. Carriers are also improving. So in Warsaw, for example, you'll be there in 2 days compared to 3, 4 days a couple of years ago.
Martijn Spee:So you are able to make that shift in, for example, delivering to 2 days is also acceptable at this moment compared to the one day by air. Mhmm.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. And that last mile solution, of course, really demands something completely different. Different. We because I'm sort of first imagining these huge bulk ships coming in, and then it comes becomes smaller and smaller and and more close knit, solutions. What are the what are the challenges there?
Martijn Spee:But the challenge is to to get it to the local network. Yeah. That's the most challenging one. So if you are a European shipper like us, you cannot have a warehouse in every country because that's that's you need to have a central supply chain. You have a central warehouse.
Martijn Spee:So make sure that you use local hubs. And and as said, it's really easy to ship sustainable from that local hub. No. But the challenge is to get it there.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. And then to to figure out where that hub should be that probably.
Martijn Spee:Yeah. You can do gravity study. So so you need to know where your customers are. You need to know the volumes. You can you need to have tools for that to to see that from where do we need to get to put local hubs.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
Martijn Spee:Or for example, a partner has already a hub somewhere because his customers are always there, and you can connect to those kind of, hubs.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. Well, Rico, of course, has a lot of experience, already rethinking, or maybe maybe in your case, it's not necessarily even rethinking because you started out thinking this way. So with all that experience, maybe you can elaborate a little bit on some advice you might be able to give to cargo owners that are really facing these same challenges, but also the same desire to to want to make things
Martijn Spee:more sustainable.
Martin Swinnerton:A little bit about change management and you know, the desire comes from first of all getting it on the agenda So, you know, the advice to any company would be make it strategic topic Make Make sure the board owns the topic.
Sofie van den Enk:Yes.
Martin Swinnerton:Then develop plans and then you can cascade that through by measuring the way, you know, your carbon emissions are or, you know, your performance in the different areas, and then identify the initiatives that you need to to actually, you know, make it happen. So the cascade is important. Mhmm.
Sofie van den Enk:Yep. Absolutely.
Martijn Spee:I I think we all learned a lot in the last years. So supply chain was always very stable, and then COVID kicks in. So I I think the whole the the shippers, and that's something everybody needs to be do is to make sure that that you're agile and are able to adapt to changes. We also have the crisis now in the Red Sea. So we are now able to, let's say, better, able to to to to cope with those changes.
Martin Swinnerton:Mhmm.
Sofie van den Enk:Because those changes or influences will always be there. I mean, if it's not COVID Yeah.
Martijn Spee:It's not acceptable anymore. It was. And now it's not anymore. So you need to make sure that your processes, are able to adapt to those kind of disruptions.
Sofie van den Enk:Yes. That's very important. Yeah. Because the disruption is sort of the stable factor at this point.
Martijn Spee:It's a stable factor. And and a couple of years ago, we were really panicking in these kind of situations. We still sometimes do a little bit, but
Sofie van den Enk:we are more to be a little bit panicky.
Martijn Spee:Yeah. You need to be panicked because otherwise, you don't find the right
Sofie van den Enk:way to stay awake.
Martijn Spee:But, yeah, you stay awake. That's a good thing. So, yeah, we developed a lot of our spike in last years.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Panicked and resilient. Something that I also really took from your story is that to really attach a number to it.
Sofie van den Enk:It's like 4% every year. That that that really is a driver for for being, staying curious about, okay, how can we still improve now? We've done all this, but you don't become complacent.
Martin Swinnerton:Like we said, we took the low hanging fruits and now we need to be really creative to find the next 4% Yeah. The next 4%.
Sofie van den Enk:Exactly.
Martin Swinnerton:And that means, you know, really going to our partners and saying, okay, we need your help. How do we do this? You know, we can't do it from our distribution center sitting in Bergen op zone. We need to go out to our partners Yeah. And make it happen.
Martijn Spee:You really need to act now. Otherwise, you are too late. Because if the legislation will come and you're not there ready, then you have a problem.
Sofie van den Enk:Yeah. You want to be in front of that. Well, thank you, Martijn and Martin, both of you so very much for these, yeah, shedding a light on how you are rethinking or maybe thinking about, your supply chain, practices. It's very inspiring to to hear your enthusiasm and excitement about about the topic. It really comes from, within.
Sofie van den Enk:In the next episode of Supply Chain Talks, I will be joined by Portbase. We already heard its name in this episode, and APM terminals.
Mara Vroon:For example, last week, we, discharged, the Manila Maersk with, 10,151 moves, then it's really important that those containers get to flow out of the terminal in a seamless, seamless way. Mhmm. So we need to know where do the containers go, where can we position them right in the yard to avoid congestion, and that information is what we get via port base.
Sofie van den Enk:If you wanna know more, check out portofrotherdam.com/ container shipping. Thank you so much for joining me again, gentlemen, and thanks to all our listeners. I hope you will tune in again to the supply chain talks podcast. Thank you.