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For over 25 years Proverbs 31 Ministries' mission has been to intersect God's Word in the real, hard places we all struggle with. That's why we started this podcast. Every episode will feature a variety of teachings from president Lysa TerKeurst, staff members or friends of the ministry who can teach you something valuable from their vantage point. We hope that regardless of your age, background or stage of life, it's something you look forward to listening to each month!
Meredith Brock:
Hi, friends. Welcome back to The Proverbs 31 Ministries Podcast where we share biblical Truth for any girl, in any season. I'm your host, Meredith Brock, and I am here with my co-host, Kaley Olson.
Kaley Olson:
Well, hey, Meredith. Today on the podcast, we're going to hear from everyone's favorite teacher, Lysa TerKeurst. But we're not just going to hear from Lysa, we're going to hear from Lysa and two of her best friends on the show today; their names are Melanie and Candace. What's so special about this episode is they've all walked through a season of grieving together and have learned a lot from it, and they're going to talk about it today. So in this episode, you guys are going to hear each of them share what they suggest to say and what not to say to a friend walking through a really difficult season. I think it's going to be a really refreshing perspective for you guys.
Meredith Brock:
Also wanted to mention, this episode pairs really well with a free resource from Lysa TerKeurst called “The 5 Healing Perspectives for Your Hurt or Heartbreak.” When you're walking through a hard season, no matter what it might be, it's helpful to process it well. So let Lysa be a friend who guides you through questions to process your pain and use what you learn in this free guide as a catalyst for helpful healing conversations with your most trusted friends. You can grab this free resource using the link in our show notes.
Kaley Olson:
Also, we want to thank Compassion International for sponsoring today's episode. Compassion brings real solutions to the poverty that so many children in today's world are facing all in Jesus' name and through the generosity of sponsors like you and me. Visit compassion.com/proverbs31, or click the link in our show notes to join us in sponsoring a child today. Now onto the show.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, what you're about to hear is the introduction to an amazing time with two of my friends. But first, I'm going to tell you something that's going to sound like an ad, but it's not. What if I told you there's something you can participate in — not take but just participate in — that decreases your stress [and] increases immune cells and infection fighting antibodies and your resistance to disease? It also triggers endorphins, the body's natural feel-good chemicals, which also promote an overall sense of well-being and can even temporarily relieve pain.
That sounds like an ad for some awesome new vitamin or wellness drink or whatever, but it's not. You know what it is? It's laughter. And you know how we get laughter? Time with our friends. And on that note, I want to introduce you to two of my — I guess I can call you besties for the resties; you're stuck with me forever — two of my great, great friends, Melanie Chitwood and Candace Salamone. Welcome guys.
Melanie Chitwood:
Thank you.
Candace Salamone:
Thank you.
Lysa TerKeurst:
This is quite a new little situation for us. Usually we're sitting around a table, eating food and playing cards and solving all of our problems together. But today we're actually going to invite others to join us in our conversation. So one of the biggest reasons that I wanted to do this conversation today is because the three of us together, we've been through a lot. And we've processed a lot of hard stuff. Each of us have been through a divorce and had this life-altering and quite honestly very unexpected turn of events, and it's changed a lot about our life.
But one thing that hasn't changed is our friendship. It's only gotten deeper through this time, and I truly believe that God brought us together because He knew that we didn't just need friends who could sympathize with us, but we needed each other because we knew the depth of feeling and angst and stress that these kinds of life-altering events like a divorce can bring. And so I'm so grateful for you.
I want to specifically focus on things that are good to say to a friend who is going through a hard time and things that maybe we should avoid saying to someone who's going through a hard time. So, Mel, I'm going to look at you first.
Melanie Chitwood:
Well, I've certainly heard some of both, definitely have heard some things that I wish people hadn't said to me. But honestly, if I hadn't been through what I've been through, I probably have said or would say some of the things too. So I'll start with one of the things that is hard to hear is: You're going to get better soon or it's going to get better soon.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Or when are you going to feel better? Or you should feel better by now.
Melanie Chitwood:
Or it's time to move on.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes.
Melanie Chitwood:
Yeah. Divorce has been the most painful thing I've ever been through. It was unexpected; I was married for 31 years. All of us were married a long time. And it's a journey of grief that is just unexpected. You think you're over it, and then something happens, and you're right back in the middle of grief. So lots of triggers. I love your counselor Jim Cress’ quote about grief.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah.
Melanie Chitwood:
Can you say that?
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah. I may not get the words exactly right, but he says grief is like a river; you’ve just got to get in it and let it take you where it's going to take you. And we've processed a lot because I was about a year, year and a half, ahead of you in my divorce. And I started going through this cycle, and it doesn't exactly mirror the grief cycle that a lot of people talk about. But there seems to be four phases that you go through.
Melanie Chitwood:
No matter what kind of grief, I think the listeners need to think about ... it doesn't have to be divorce, it could be losing someone, it could be just a different season of life. Being an empty nester.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, it could be anything where you thought your life was going to go this way or you expected it to feel a certain way, and then all of a sudden life goes this way and a whole different set of emotions hits you really hard. And I think grief is at the foundation of what we experienced when we experienced loss of any kind.
So I remember talking to you through this, and the first phase for me ... and I think you experienced these exact same phases. So the first phase to me was relief. And that may sound strange, but the intensity of trying to save a relationship that in the end couldn't be saved but the trauma and the drama and the chaos around that ... at first, I felt relief. And then after the relief, I started to feel this pretty intense sadness, and I couldn't even figure out what the sadness was at first. Then I went through a season of really intense loneliness. Honestly, it felt so unfair because I felt like I'd already been through enough. Now why do I have to process all of these hard emotions? And now I've circled all the way through those, and now I'm at a place of healing and maybe relief again. It's like relief that the intensity of the sadness and loneliness is gone.
And this time instead of a relief I'm out of the chaos, it's more a relief of acceptance.
Candace Salamone:
And maybe hope.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And maybe hope of where I'm at, and I'm grateful for that. But what's been so interesting is because we're at different phases of the journey, I'm able to say, oh, you felt the relief. Yeah, I went through that too. Oh, deep sadness? And right behind that, I hate to tell you it's going to be loneliness. But then eventually there will be this different kind of relief of acceptance and hope. So that's excellent. I do think you've got to let people go through the process. And it's not a linear process. Sometimes you'll toggle between these feelings that we just described.
So, Mel, what would [be] something positive that you could say, if that's a hard thing to say, like aren't you over this yet? Then what would be something positive?
Melanie Chitwood:
Well, one of my favorite things that you say is, how can I support you? It's my favorite thing that you say; it's so much better than, what can I do for you? Or how can I help you? Because a lot of times you don't know the answer to that. You just want to feel better. But how can I support you is just that sense of I'm bearing this burden with you. Or I'll bear it for you if you can't bear it right now. And we definitely have felt that for each other. I mean, we've called each other first thing in the morning, where we just wake up with immense grief sitting on our chest and we just are almost panicky. We can't make it go away. And —
Candace Salamone:
Today. I started the day that way today —
Melanie Chitwood:
Yes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes, that is true, Candace.
Candace Salamone:
And we're far in this process. Literally today I started and knew I could tell you guys right away — this is happening; I'm heavy; I'm low again. And you guys —
Melanie Chitwood:
Yeah, it was a big step back.
Candace Salamone:
— Encouraged me.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I think the other thing too that is special is that not only do we understand this journey because we're all on it together, but we're also able to process together. And our bank is already so full of trust with one another. And we don't have to go backward and explain why we're feeling this way; we can just state what we're feeling, and we all truly get it. And so, it's from that place of truly getting it that if you're open to a thought or you want advice, we can give it, and you can trust that on a whole different level because you know we've experienced the depth of pain. Sometimes I think when people give us advice, it can be easy to say, "Yeah, easy for you to say, but you don't really know what this feels like."
Melanie Chitwood:
Yeah, you're married.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah. You know what I mean? Or you haven't experienced this kind of loss. And so if they're trying to give advice but they've never experienced this, sometimes that can be really hard to receive. But a bigger factor of that is have they built the trust bank up to where you trust them enough that this advice is going to be something that is really applicable to the depth of emotion you're feeling? And today, that was certainly the case, Candace. You had two people that you could reach out to. I think, Mel today was the comforter, and I was the bossy one.
Candace Salamone:
I know. And that's great, and y'all know me. And like you said, we have the foundation, and you know the history. I didn't have to explain why I was feeling or even really what I was feeling. I just kind of had to say, this happened and y'all knew the things that you needed to do and say —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Absolutely.
Candace Salamone:
In that moment.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And you may be sitting here thinking, well, that must be nice. I would love to have these two friends. I want you to know that Mel and Candace weren't in my life at the very beginning of this journey, even though I've known Mel for probably 30 years. When our kids went to different schools, we lost touch. And then when we rekindled our relationship, you were still very much married. And so the Lord really put us together in such an unexpected way.
But here's what I want to say, if you don't have friends that you feel like you can really communicate with and process with from the depth of a similar understanding, then we want to be those friends for you today. And we pray that today's episode will really comfort something in your heart and give you some things to think about when you're looking for friends, when you're praying for friendships, but also how you can be a terrific friend. And if you're a terrific friend who says the things that are helpful and not hurtful, then you'll attract those kinds of friends. So Candace, what is something that you would say? A don't say and then a do say.
Candace Salamone:
Well, my do and don't are kind of related to each other. And I want to be really careful because the foundation of what the three of us have and other close friends is that I know without a doubt [for] both of you, the foundation is Jesus for you. That is the filter that you are thinking about me through, you're thinking about anything I share with you. And so I know that. And you don't have to give me a Bible verse for me to know that. I know that in your character. And so I would say, knowing the friends you're talking to, are you talking to friends that have a foundation of that? So the don't is the thing I —
Melanie Chitwood:
All right, I'm going to say something that you said to me that made me giggle. About the Bible verses, yes, Bible verses can give you strength and lift you out of the pit. But you said to me, don't say the joy of the Lord is my strength. Because you know that. But sometimes it just sounds like a platitude.
Candace Salamone:
It does.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Before somebody needs to be taught something, they want to feel understood.
Candace Salamone:
Right. You want to feel heard and that they are joining me in my pain, not just trying to slap the first Band-Aid that comes to their mind on it. And so Christianese ... just not have knee-jerk Bible verses. And again, not that there's not a time and place, and I value that. And Mel and I were talking, I think it was yesterday, and we're constantly praying for each other. And she had been praying for me, and she was saying, "I've been praying for you in this particular situation for weeks. And there's this one verse I've been praying." Well, she had been praying it for weeks before she ever shared it with me. But then we were in a conversation, and she knew then was the right time. And it was the perfect time. And then I dove into that section of Scripture; I read everything around it and lots of translations to that, and it was the perfect time. But had she shared it just in the moment of just me saying, “Here's what I'm struggling with,” it probably would've felt like —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, and it would short-circuit your ability to process the depth of emotions that you were feeling. And sometimes the best thing to do is just get it out. And that's biblical. I mean, if you look at the Psalms, the laments and just pouring out our heart to the Lord and to a friend, sometimes just getting it out is helpful. But if somebody too quickly quotes a Bible verse or even just a feel-good statement or whatever, it can short-circuit what you really needed in that conversation. And that was to be able to get the hard stuff out.
Candace Salamone:
Right. And so I would say that let them know you're hearing them and that you're understanding that they're having a hard time. And if a Bible verse does come to mind right then, make a note of it in your own mind and do like Mel did and pray that verse for them. And make that truth but don't feel like you have to immediately share the Bible verse in order to just sort of justify that you're coming at it from that standpoint.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I think it's such a great comfort to know that both of you are praying for me.
Candace Salamone:
It is.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I can honestly say, I feel like you pray more words over me than you speak to me. And that is such a unique bond to know that someone has your best interests at heart. And maybe you're in a season where you feel like I don't even have the words to pray or I've run out of the words to pray or I just feel like I'm saying the same things over and over to the Lord. But it's so comforting to me when I know, OK, when my faith starts to get shaky, I can go and stand on the faith of these two friends who I know are praying for me. And so I think that's beautiful. But I love your advice of wait for the timing to give them that Bible verse. And if they've been praying through that verse for you, that's just quite a gift.
Candace Salamone:
It is. It is. But feeling heard often in that moment is the bigger gift to their heart in the moment.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, so that's your don't. What's your do?
Candace Salamone:
Well, my do is to ... kind of the same, it's that reverse. It's to hold back and just be that ear and listen and affirm that you're hearing them, affirm that you're with them. That even if you don't understand what they're going through, that you're just there. And that they can feel whatever they're feeling, that they can have the freedom to feel that and not have to have it neat and tidy.
Melanie Chitwood:
Censored.
Candace Salamone:
Yes, that they don't have to hold it back if they're feeling sad, if they're feeling mad. Whatever the feeling is, that they are safe to express it. And you're just there to validate that and validate them and affirm them. But you're not necessarily trying to fix it for them. And particularly fix it with just a sticky note Bible verse on top of it.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's really good.
OK, I'll go next. Sometimes I just really need to not process the hard stuff. And I just need to have fun. And I need to laugh. And I need friends who will participate in healthy coping mechanisms for me, with me. You know what I mean?
Melanie Chitwood:
A healthy coping mechanism.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah. Because there's unhealthy ones, for sure.
Melanie Chitwood:
Definitely.
Lysa TerKeurst:
You're not going to find us going out and acting a fool. You know what I mean? But —
Melanie Chitwood:
We'll be inside.
Lysa TerKeurst:
We'll be inside.
Candace Salamone:
And it'll be more just being silly, a fool, but yes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes, yes. But it was so good for me to remember how to laugh again. And that's why I started off this whole episode ... laughter, the Bible says is such good medicine. Laughter does so much for us. And we talked about all the properties that it helps our immune system and all of that. But it also releases those endorphins, and it can make a sense of well-being come into your life for just a little bit. And maybe you haven't had that in a long time. And I remember one time, Candace, that you said something to me that someone spoke over you, and it was really, really harsh. And you were playing that over and over and over in your mind. So what was that statement?
Candace Salamone:
Yeah, I had been told that when I walk into the room, that I just suck the fun or the joy out of the room or out of a situation.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And what I was able to do is point to Candace, look at all the times that not only did you not suck the fun out of the room, but you often are the very one that brings it. You lead the charge with silly, and we love that about you. I have videos —
Melanie Chitwood:
Wait, I was about to say, we have many videos.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— Of Candace dancing. I have videos of you dancing on the streets of New York. Just —
Candace Salamone:
This sounds like we're acting a fool, Lysa.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, if we were in one of those machines where the camera circles around you and it does like a 360 video of us dancing, you were definitely participating in the dancing more than Mel and I were. It was fantastic.
Melanie Chitwood:
It was your moment.
Candace Salamone:
I do love to dance.
Lysa TerKeurst:
It was your moment.
Candace Salamone:
I do love to dance.
Melanie Chitwood:
It was your shining moment.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And then I remember we decided ... the three of us on New Year's Day went to Philadelphia, and we ran the Rocky steps. I think Mel was the filmer —
Candace Salamone:
Mel did not go to the top.
Melanie Chitwood:
I did not. I just filmed.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, you were the videographer that day. But Candace and I ran those steps, and it wasn't about who can run them faster. It wasn't even about can we run them fast or get to the top with this stellar athletic demonstration.
Candace Salamone:
But you did.
Lysa TerKeurst:
We did. But it was not a stellar athletic demonstration —
Candace Salamone:
No, it was not.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— At all. But that moment of victory was such a tangible, beautiful moment for me because I felt like in conquering that thing of running the Rocky stairs together, when we did it together, it's like it was a moment of victory. And sometimes when you're going through a hard time, it feels like the victory or the redemption is a long ways away. So I think it's good to have little moments of victory that happen not when you're perfectly healed but when you're in the process.
Melanie Chitwood:
I think people who lose someone through death, maybe suddenly, maybe in a long illness, I think they almost sometimes feel guilty for being happy.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, I was going to say that.
Melanie Chitwood:
Some after that.
Candace Salamone:
It can be counterintuitive.
Melanie Chitwood:
But it's OK. You have permission to be happy.
Candace Salamone:
In the middle of hard things.
Melanie Chitwood:
Yeah, in the middle of your grief.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, sorrow and joy oftentimes have to coexist in the human heart. And it's good to have friends who remember that joy is possible. But sometimes you have to bring the joy, and you really do. Candace —
Melanie Chitwood:
Wait, I'm going to tell on you. Lysa's life ... well, there's two things. Two things always. Music.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yes.
Candace Salamone:
Yes.
Melanie Chitwood:
Usually some kind of dance music.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, because you know the greatest movies have awesome soundtracks. So why not add a little soundtrack to [crosstalk].
Melanie Chitwood:
There is always a soundtrack. So that's been very therapeutic. And there's a certain game that I think you should get a sponsorship for.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I know. We didn't really —
Candace Salamone:
That would be good.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— Think through that.
Melanie Chitwood:
I know.
Lysa TerKeurst:
So there is no sponsorship happening today.
Melanie Chitwood:
So there's a game called Monopoly Deal that Lysa tried to talk me into playing for months. And I'm like, I am not playing that game; I hate Monopoly.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I know. Because when people hear Monopoly, they think I'm going to be sitting —
Candace Salamone:
For hours.
Melanie Chitwood:
For hours.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— At a board game for hours and hours and hours.
Candace Salamone:
Watching paint dry.
Melanie Chitwood:
I don't have that kind of attention span.
Lysa TerKeurst:
But this is the Monopoly Deal card game, and you can play a whole ... what do you call it? A whole round in like 20 minutes. And so it's fast.
Candace Salamone:
It's fast.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And it's so fun.
Melanie Chitwood:
So we literally play it everywhere.
Candace Salamone:
Yes, we do.
Melanie Chitwood:
We played right before this podcast.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, we did actually. They said that the crew needed a little bit more time, and we're like, no problem.
Melanie Chitwood:
Get the cards out.
Candace Salamone:
We have cards.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And two of us had the Monopoly Deal cards in their purse ready to go, and we did not talk about doing Monopoly Deal today.
Melanie Chitwood:
Yeah, we've played it on planes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
We have.
Candace Salamone:
In pools.
Lysa TerKeurst:
In pools. This is true.
Melanie Chitwood:
Restaurants, any restaurant.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's right. And I think what's so unique about that is it allows us a healthy way to cope with the hard stuff without even having to talk about the hard stuff. And we don't have pity on each other when we're playing this game at all. We are very competitive.
Candace Salamone:
We are very competitive.
Melanie Chitwood:
Some of us are really competitive.
Candace Salamone:
And what that does ... if you find something that you enjoy and often it's a process I know for me ... you're having to rediscover ways to have fun, ways to create your own joy. But if you've been in a long season of something hard or you've just gone through something, you may have to rediscover that. And then you do. And we can play cards and be laughing one minute and almost crying the next. We can toggle between very serious and very silly in the same hand of cards. And so if you find something you can do with friends, that you can share some joy in, you'll actually be able to do both. Even I'm thinking of ... if you're hiking or walking, you're doing this thing, but you can also process. And we definitely do that. We don't just play or just process. We play and process; we do it all together.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's true.
Melanie Chitwood:
Some of us do that better than others.
Candace Salamone:
Lysa being the some.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, Mel is just doing this because I did just win. But then you won one too because we actually played two games today.
Melanie Chitwood:
I did not.
Lysa TerKeurst:
We have a —
Candace Salamone:
I did.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah. Oh, that's right. Candace did. Sorry, Mel, I was trying to build you up.
Melanie Chitwood:
It's not my day.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Not your day. But even something like that, like playing cards and having a moment of victory or whatever or laughing, it gives you a sense of joy or almost just like I said victory in the middle.
Candace Salamone:
Normalcy.
Melanie Chitwood:
It's relief. Sometimes when you're going through a hard time, your heart is so heavy and you ache so intensely. Honestly, I've never known this intense ache before. I mean, literally physically hurt. And you can't stay in that place forever. It's just too much. And so these are little —
Lysa TerKeurst:
Respites.
Melanie Chitwood:
Yeah, reprieves.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, which is awesome.
OK, so that's my do ... is like ... OK, we got to introduce some fun. Maybe for you, if you've been through a really long hard season, it's been a really long time since you've had fun, and you can feel like you've almost lost yourself. “I used to be such a fun person.” If you catch yourself saying that, then that's an invitation to do something. Do something fun and —
Candace Salamone:
Try some things.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And try some things.
Melanie Chitwood:
It doesn't have to be big.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's right.
Candace Salamone:
No —
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's right.
Candace Salamone:
I mean, we play cards. That's definitely not big and it's not expensive —
Lysa TerKeurst:
This is true.
Candace Salamone:
And it doesn't require leaving home. Just try things.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, and it doesn't help us stay in shape or any of that.
Candace Salamone:
Definitely not.
Lysa TerKeurst:
It's just sitting.
Candace Salamone:
In fact, it's having the opposite effect. Some of us.
Lysa TerKeurst:
OK, that's an episode for another day.
But here's one thing that I would say is my don't. And like Mel said before, I'm sure I've done this. But it's really hard on me when someone says to me, “I've been thinking a lot about you. And I know this is just such a hard season, and you're just going through so much.” Now, here's the thing, that sentiment is kind, and I know I've said that to other people before. But in that moment, the way it makes me feel is pitiful.
Candace Salamone:
Yes.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I don't like to feel pitiful because it takes me backward rather than moving me forward. A much better thing to say in that moment is something that they like about me. Because I'm already feeling such loss. When you lose a relationship, especially a relationship that came on the heels of a lot of rejection and betrayal and emotional abuse, if that's the case, you start to really feel less and less and less good about yourself. And so it would be so sweet, and it is so sweet, when someone just steps in. You did it the other day, Mel. You said, "Lysa, you really know a lot about a lot of things."
Melanie Chitwood:
You do.
Lysa TerKeurst:
And I was like, "I do?" And I don't even remember ... oh, we were talking about something —
Melanie Chitwood:
Finances or something.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah, we were talking about finances, which is not ... I really don't know a lot about finances. But I knew about this one change in the inheritance taxes and all of this stuff, that I was like, “Hey, you need to look into this.” And she just quickly stopped. And she's like, "Lysa, you know a lot about a lot." I think in that moment, instead of pity, “I know you're going through such a hard time,” instead of that, it made me remember something that is good about myself. And it made me remember that that person that I feel like got somewhat lost in this process of grief. And so that's what I would recommend, for sure.
Candace Salamone:
And that reminds me, I'd totally forgotten about this happening. I know I shared it with Lysa; I may or may not have shared it with Mel. But in the earlier times of when I was going through the divorce, I ran into an old friend from college and hadn't seen her probably since a few years after college. And we decided to have lunch, and we did have lunch. And in that lunch she started, when she saw my sadness, she was like, "There's something missing from you; where is ...?" And she started reminding me of all of these things that she remembered about me. Things she remembered about me from college, things she remembered when we were just out of college and working. She was telling me things that I'd forgotten, that employers had said and accomplishments in my jobs. And she started calling these things back out of me. And I'm like, "Wow."
That is who I was, and that's not how I was feeling anymore. And that's still who I am, and it's still who I was in that moment. But that's not what was on the surface. And so it's exactly what you said. It's like you're already feeling low, and I didn't even know I needed that. And then she started reminding me and calling these things out in me. And you are both good at that too. You both call out the best. And you name the things very specifically, not just like you're a good person. But you notice things that we do and say them.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah. And that is distinctive —
Candace Salamone:
And that is just really helpful.
Lysa TerKeurst:
— About you, which is awesome.
OK. Well, I want to end with this because you told us a story about a family member who had cancer, and it really resonated with me; I've also had cancer. But the biggest label that I feel like I've carried, and this was my resistance for so long to accepting the death of my marriage was I just didn't want to be a divorced woman. And that label has been so hard on my heart. And so you told me about a family member who had cancer, and I want to end with that today because I just think it's such a good reminder.
Candace Salamone:
When she was going through her cancer, she said one of the hardest things about it. Now she had surgery, and she was going through chemo and radiation, all of those things. But she said one of the hardest things was that everywhere she went, she felt like she was cancer. She was the big cancer label walking around and that everybody meant well, and they would just ask her about cancer: “Oh, how are you doing? I'm so sorry. I've been thinking about your family.” Again, those are wonderful sentiments, and I had never thought about that ... that's all people are saying. And she said she just wanted to walk into a room and feel normal and have a normal conversation.
And then as I was going through my divorce, it was the same thing. I suddenly felt like I was walking into every room or everywhere I was divorced. Like I was wearing a big placard that said: divorce, divorce, divorce. And that everybody — you said it earlier — was looking at me like we're pitiful, like they felt sorry for me. And you just want to feel normal. You want to feel like a whole person, not like something is missing. So whatever kind of loss it is, you don't want to feel like it made you less whole. Whether it was an illness, a divorce, an actual loss of death, just a hard season, the end of a season, whatever that is, you don't want to feel like that made you less whole or less of a normal person.
Melanie Chitwood:
That's a good way of saying that.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah. And that can apply ... even if there's someone struggling with anxiety, they don't want to walk into a room and everybody's like, oh, anxiety is here. Or oh, cancer is here. Or oh, financial problems is here. Or oh, divorce is now here. I want to be able to walk into a room and have people say things like “cute shoes.” Or what have you been learning lately? Or what's something fun you're looking forward to? And it's that kind of stuff that brings a normalcy and almost an equilibrium back when you're in a season of turmoil. And I really, really like that example because I think it's such a good reminder.
Well, Mel and Candace, is there anything last that you're burning to say? If not, that's OK. You can go, “Nope, I got it all out.” But is there anything else you're like, “I’ve got to say this before we end today's episode.”
Melanie Chitwood:
I am going to say one little thing. When you go through a really hard time like divorce, you can get bitter, and you can get hardhearted, and you can get vengeful and —
Candace Salamone:
And feel justified.
Melanie Chitwood:
Yeah, and often justified. And there's a difference between feeling that just for a moment versus camping out on it. And one of the things that good friends do is help you not camp out in a place you know you don't want to be. You know you don't want to stay there. It might feel like it for that moment, that that's where you want to stay. But good friends know that's not who you are, that's not your character, that's not where you want to stay.
Lysa TerKeurst:
That's so good though.
Melanie Chitwood:
And I feel like we do that really well for each other.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Yeah. Because the last thing you need is for us to jump in the pit with you and to say, “You know what? Totally, you are so justified. And yeah, you should do everything you can to get back at that person. Or you should do everything you can to make this wrong right.” But instead of that, we will have that righteous anger with you. We'll say, “That stinks, or that's awful, or that should have never been done to you.” But then we're going to call you forth to a better place. And you guys do that same thing for me; you call me forth to a better place. And that's what good friends do. Well, this has been so fun.
Candace Salamone:
It has.
Melanie Chitwood:
Thank you.
Lysa TerKeurst:
I kind of feel like we need to do friend talk again.
Candace Salamone:
That would be great. I would love that.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Would you really? Or do you get super nervous in this stuff?
Candace Salamone:
No, I would really love that. I would love that.
Lysa TerKeurst:
Well, this has been great. I hope what we've said is helpful. And today, if you need a friend that is all these certain qualities that we've talked about today, be that friend. And like I said before, when you are that friend, you will attract more friends like you. So thanks, guys. It's been really fun.
Melanie Chitwood:
It was.
Candace Salamone:
Thank you.
Kaley Olson:
Meredith, what a fun conversation. I love getting to hear Lysa and her friends laugh together but also talk about what they've learned about what to say and what not to say. But having a confession to make, they talked about Monopoly Deal. I just can't do it. I can't play the game. I don't know how, but I hear you are a fan.
Meredith Brock:
I love Monopoly Deal so much.
Kaley Olson:
How do you feel about Monopoly?
Meredith Brock:
I don't know. I don't know if we can be friends anymore, Kaley.
Kaley Olson:
I think maybe I just need to lock myself in a room —
Meredith Brock:
Maybe you do.
Kaley Olson:
— And really learn how to play it.
Meredith Brock:
It's funny that you say that because guess when I learned how to play Monopoly Deal?
Kaley Olson:
Was it during COVID?
Meredith Brock:
Yes.
Kaley Olson:
When you had nothing else to do.
Meredith Brock:
So we were basically locked in a room with my children and my husband.
Kaley Olson:
I will say, Lysa tried to teach me one time. And she was a good teacher, but I didn't have enough practice rounds, and she had no mercy on me.
Meredith Brock:
The woman loves to win a game. It's true.
Kaley Olson:
She literally wins every game that she plays.
Meredith Brock:
I know.
Kaley Olson:
It's insane.
Meredith Brock:
I'm going to toot my own horn though; I've beat her quite a few times, so I just want everybody to know that.
All right, y'all, thank you for joining us today. But before we let you go, here are a few reminders. First, don't forget to download Lysa's free resource in the show notes titled “The 5 Healing Perspectives for Your Hurt or Heartbreak.” And would you prayerfully consider sponsoring a child through Compassion International? I have sponsored two different children over the years, and it is such a privilege to be able to provide for these children who can't provide for themselves. So both of these opportunities are linked in the show notes below.
Kaley Olson:
That's all for today, friends. At Proverbs 31 Ministries, we believe when you know the Truth and live the Truth, it changes everything.