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Manhood often feels like navigating through uncharted territory, but you don't have to walk alone. Join us as we guide a conversation about how to live intentionally so that we can join God in reclaiming the masculine restorative presence he designed us to live out. Laugh, cry, and wonder with us as we explore the ins and outs of manhood together.
00:00
What was it like kind of in this season of discovery and betrayal and all of that for you? You know, what are some ways that you experienced other men maybe even not experiencing other men the way that you wish you would have? What was that like for you? Brotherhood? Yeah, there were a couple of really, really good moments. One was that that men's breakfast I referred to earlier where some guys actually is like, stop. Hey, hold on. You said something there.
00:27
and some red flags are popping up, let's sit with it for a minute. That was huge for me. Another was there was another guy in my phone call support group that had an eerily similar story to mine. It sounded so familiar and we connected and would chat and phone call on a pretty regular basis, just kind of walking through what we were each going through, walking through those different stages.
00:54
of grief and looking for some healing and things on the other side. Those are great. There were still some really, really deep moments of isolation and loneliness through that time. And I found that I had to muster up some courage and some strength to reach out to some people on my own. I knew that I needed some help or just needing an ear or a shoulder. And there were
01:22
I think what I missed the most during that time was my dad. Say more about that. Yeah, I wanted his wisdom. I wanted to know what he...
01:40
I wanted to know what he would say to me in that moment. I wanted to feel his arms around me.
01:52
Yeah, it's odd in a moment of, maybe it's not that odd, in a moment of deep, deep hurt and isolation. I just really needed a physical touch of another man and especially with my father. I think that makes so much sense.
02:12
Yeah, I really respected my dad's faith and his wisdom, his knowledge. I was really desperate for that at that moment. I would often turn to my mother at that point because she was the closest connection that I had to him. And oftentimes she would tell me what she thought that my dad would say. So that was about as close as I could get.
02:33
The thing that's coming to mind for me as you talk about that and thank you for your honesty and just around that desire for your dad. I so appreciate that. The image that comes to mind is you saying, wanted the person who maybe knew my identity the most on this earth. I wasn't after the three steps from someone or the advice, right? But in this time where so much was disorienting, I wanted the grounding touch of the person who knew who I was.
03:03
And so that makes so much sense and feels like again that desire for others to be with we say that probably ad nauseam in some of these episodes, but just that desire for someone to be with me to be with you makes so much sense. Yeah, that's good. That's good. There definitely was moments where I needed some witness for sure. And I guess I just even ask like, man, I love hearing around the community that you found with other men that were walking through a really similar path or hope.
03:33
who have walked that, gosh, what a gift. And I'd imagine there's people listening who maybe haven't walked that path, but are walking with other friends that are in a similar place with you. And I could probably hear some of the discounting in their own head of like, gosh, I want to be with my buddy, but I haven't walked that road. And so I don't have like a platform or I don't have the ability to really offer what he needs. Like maybe what would you say to some people who might have that response?
04:03
Yeah, that's really good. It's a difficult space to walk. I still even find that as a difficult space to walk, even with the friends that I know are walking through something similar, even with the experience that I have. even more so, it's difficult when you don't have some experience with infidelity or divorce. I think the greatest gift that you can give Jesse, like what you said, is witness to just be with them.
04:32
There's something really great to be said about offering some, I don't want to call it distraction, but some happiness, some joy, some enjoyment, because when you're in that space and you're alone, you're stuck. You're stuck with it. You sit with it. It's an ever present companion. And when you're with someone else and they can offer you something a little bit with some levity,
05:02
It's a gift. It's a huge gift. That was a big gift for me to be able to go out with some friends or do something fun, do something enjoyable. And just know that if you are sitting in a space with a man that's going through something like this, even when you do offer that to them, you go have some fun. There may be a moment where that man just kind of stops and you see his face change. The sadness passes through him again.
05:30
Give him some space to be that, but in that space, be with him, be with him in that. Let him know it's okay. Yeah. Like those, those guys in that group who I love that phrase, like they threw the curriculum out and they just said, Hey, we noticed this and we're going to lean in or even if it's, know, in your activity and that was like to be able to just totally abandon that plan. Right. And have the awareness of like, Hey, this is, I saw this, I noticed it.
05:59
and not just gonna look the other way.
06:04
That's so helpful. I'd also offer, it's helpful too, to practice true empathy. You don't necessarily have to affirm the feelings that they're feeling at the time, but you can at least validate the feelings that they're feeling at the time. Like it's right for you to feel that. It's okay to feel that. Like, yeah, sit with that feeling, being in that feeling, it's okay to feel it. You don't have to shove it down or push it aside.
06:34
Yeah, that was good. Man, there's there's probably so many. All right. Chapters that have been written since then. But yeah, I kind of let it bring us into a little bit of how some of that season has ended and where you find yourself now. Yeah. Yeah. So not long after that retreat that we were at, came back home to Chicago and things seemed to be progressing a little bit. Mayor's counseling was getting a little bit.
07:03
better, like, hey, okay, now we're maybe at ground zero now. And we can start to actually start making some progress here. And it felt like that for maybe a couple weeks, three, four weeks, something like that. And then it quickly started devolving again to the momentum was lost and back to business as usual. Again, home life became pretty toxic for me. I was stuck.
07:32
Working at home, there's no escape from it. Home was work, work was home. There's no office to go to, no faces to see. The only bit of escape I got was my bi-weekly men's church group, which just wasn't frequent enough. Still didn't have any kind of support group or network there up in Chicago. So the next year come that spring, I got to a point where I just felt suffocated.
08:01
and really frustrated with the fact that things weren't changing, things weren't progressing. We really weren't making much progress. And at this point I said, hey, I need to get away. I need some breathing space. I need to change the scenery. Just physically, I need to be out of the house so I can catch a breath of fresh air. And I said, just be for a couple of weeks. Two weeks.
08:30
I just need to get out and stay with some family just to have a breath. So worked through the logistics of that with our marriage counselor. What does a separation look like? How do we navigate this? And it came down to, every couple of days we'll have a business call, you know, just strictly business. What needs to be done at the house? What bills need to be paid? That kind of deal. But leave the relationship stuff for after. And then after the separation,
08:59
come back up and we'll reevaluate. This was really short separation, just like a couple weeks, right? So go down to, again, stay with my mother down in Indiana. And it was restful. I felt a sense of relief to be out of the house. The weightiness, the heaviness that was around that space was just lifted. And I felt...
09:24
free to just kind of be myself, not have to perform anything that therapy was requiring of me, anything like that. And it wasn't maybe two days in that I caught wind of another conversation between my wife and another strange man that I didn't know, I'd never heard of before that seemed very suspect. And for me, that was kind of the last
09:53
draw. I'm like, well, wow, in all this time and all this money spent, nothing's changed. We're just still doing the same thing. So and I had I had changed. I had been growing, but I didn't see anything happening on the other side, which is very sad for me. And so, you know, I reached out and confronted her again about it. And it wasn't too long after that.
10:24
I came to this conclusion and this was actually God speaking to me. He said that he wouldn't require me to martyr myself on the altar of a dead and broken marriage. But he called me to persevere, not just to endure. And endurance meant status quo, just enduring whatever. And I believe that the human spirit can endure
10:53
the most horrific conditions in perpetuity. Very resilient men in that way, but that's not what he was calling me to. He's calling me to persevere and to move towards the man that he had created me to be. And it wasn't going to be that. And so I felt at that moment, a release, a release from that relationship, a release into a life that looked very different. And
11:23
So the decision was made to pursue divorce. Thankfully it was a quick process. Sometimes it was going to get dragged out and go on for years with legal battles and everything. She was ready for it. I was ready for it. There was an easy split pretty much down the middle. Get some lawyers involved. We had an amicable proceeding where we just kind of sat down around a table.
11:51
Two of us, two of our lawyers come up, drop the terms, look at all the finances, how do we divide it equitably, put it down on paper, send it to the courts, judge looks at it, gives us a court date and says, that's that, and you're done. So within about a month and a half, the divorce was final. It was very fast. So was going back up, packing up my stuff, putting it in storage, taking it back down to my mom's.
12:21
Yeah, getting the household, figuring out how to split that up, that whole deal, know, it's just the logistics. And that part sucked. But it's just, you know, it's just the stuff you got to do to get through it. It was put to me this way, whatever you might end up losing in a divorce, like stuff wise or monetarily wise, think of it as the price of freedom. And that's what it was for me. It was freedom from the hard life that I've been living.
12:51
freedom from the consequences of someone else's sin and actions. And I'll tell you this though, nothing really kills game like living with your mother when you're 33 years old.
13:11
That could be a whole other podcast episode. Yeah, maybe should have. maybe later. So think I'm curious. know like that season ended in that that, you know, six week moment or whatever. And that began a new season for you in which you're having to relearn how to be you. You know, before you can move forward in any other ways.
13:37
And I guess I'm curious, can you give some words to like, what was the inner work that was happening for you throughout the whole season of betrayal and everything? And then what was the work that happened afterwards? The kind of rebuilding? Yeah, it really came down to rediscovering my identity, you know, in marriage and especially in that marriage, your identity gets wrapped up in it.
14:05
for sure, and as well as should be to become one. It changes who you are, changes your identity, changes your purpose. And I would say by then removing that, it really comes down to who am I? Who even am I anymore? I often found myself not so much creating a new identity, but just coming back to who I already knew myself to be, who God had already said that I was.
14:36
reestablishing some interests and hobbies that I had pushed aside for a long time and the interest of putting more time and effort into my relationship and finding joy in those again, rather than finding escape from a hard life and establishing new friendships through some of that. Yeah. New relationship. And part of it too was, go ahead. Good. say, I, who was the man that you rediscovered?
15:05
Hmm. Oh, that's a good question, too. Because I think I'm still discovering him. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, yeah. And does that process ever really stop? I don't think so. Well, tell us a little bit about him. I will say he was lighter. He was physically more active, more fit. But also, he was yeah, he was
15:35
He was lighter just in his mannerism, way of speaking, more fun to be around, not so heavy and somber, and a lot more confident. Boy, it's been a lot of years just through what had gone on in that relationship, just second guessing every word, second guessing every thought, being unsure of.
16:03
what I was speaking, how I was speaking, really with a belief that I was socially awkward. I was that weird guy at the party. And I'm like, well, that's not who I am. I'm not a weird, socially awkward dude. Not at all. And, no, thank you. That's a first. Better than if you said, well, actually, yeah. And that second guessing stopped. I felt more free.
16:32
to just be myself, say what was on my mind, say what was on my heart without having to second guess whether that was something that was welcome or not. Could you give us a little bit of a snapshot of kind of where you're at in life now and maybe offer some words to guys who may find themselves in a similar space to where you've been? Yeah, I'll start with a little bit of that is, man, there is life.
17:00
on the other side and it is good. It's good life. It's better life. I know that sounds crazy. It sounds weird, especially when you're going through it. It feels like something is irreparably broken that you will never be able to see healed. And yes, something's broken, something's different, but that can be really beautiful. And it adds, it adds joy.
17:28
It adds life, it adds character to the other side of things. And it's actually way better than what it could have been if you had stayed where you were at. Because we're not meant to be stagnant. We're not meant to stay in one spot. We're meant to continue moving forward. We're meant to continue pursuing growth and healing and freedom and restoration. And if you stay in one spot, you know, that's
17:56
You can't find that. can't receive that. So where I am now, I met my wife during the pandemic. Our first date was with masks on at an outdoor brewery. I mean, you can't make that up. So she had beautiful eyes. That's. Yeah. We're on that same page. We're like, oh, these masks are stupid, especially we're sitting outside. So those got ripped off very quickly.
18:26
But yeah, divorced and then dating. That was a whole journey. Like I said, game killer, living with your mother. then moving back out to Colorado as soon as I could dating and I found my now wife. That relationship moved quickly, but in a really good way, a really wonderful way, a very healing and restorative way. And.
18:56
Fast forward, we now have two children, two beautiful, wonderful children. I've got a two-year-old daughter and a nine-month-old little boy. And they are my absolute joy. I can't tell you just the sheer redemption that I felt personally when my daughter was born. Just like, wow, I had wanted this for so long. And I really thought that I wanted it with the person that I was with.
19:25
And thank God it did not happen with the person that I was with and it is happening now instead. Um, and a, and a better place, a healthier place. Yeah. It was kind of quick. remember, cause we went to my first Grove was our was year and my first Grove together and we kept a little bit afterwards. And, uh, you were telling me about this girl that you'd met that you kind of want to.
19:52
Yeah, I think you went on your first date like the next day or something. That's right. That's right. We did. We did Grove. Then you and I went camping one night and then, yep, that next day was first date. And then like the next year at Grove, you're like, were you engaged or were you getting married already? Engaged at that point. Yeah. Engaged to be married within like another month or so. Yeah.
20:19
And then like, I felt like it was the next grove. You're like, and we're pregnant or it was like, that's right. I'm in hard. That's right. That's I thank you for your generosity in sharing your story. Thanks for your honesty. It's encouraging. Let's hopeful. Yeah. I'm just grateful for, your willingness to share it. Join us today. Thank you, man.
20:50
Yeah, yeah, thank you. Thank you. If there's one more thing I could say, I would love to just address the man that's listening right now, that's going through something like this. Just like something that I went through. And I would just say, I'm sorry. It's not a club any of us wanted to be in, but we find ourselves here. And I know it feels lonely, but you're not alone.
21:20
And right now life really sucks. It's really, really hard. This is the hardest thing you've probably ever gone through and probably ever will. Just a little bit of data that I found super interesting on a scale. This was done a study by some research psychologists on a scale of psychological pain and PTSD.
21:49
The absolute worst pain that any person can go through is the loss of a child. And the second, and this isn't to toot my own horn and say I went through something hard. This is just empirical data. The second is the infidelity of a spouse. So if you're going through this right now, you're up there at the very tippy top of the absolute worst things you can experience.
22:18
but please know that this doesn't last forever. That pain doesn't last forever. It gets better. Days feel hard. It feels like you have all your days are bad days. Eventually you're gonna start having a couple of good days. And then soon those days start to even out. You have as many good days as you have bad days. And then you start to notice that you start having a lot more good days than you have bad days. And then you start to see, hey, I've had...
22:46
A lot of good days. haven't really had a bad day in a while. You'll get there. You'll get there. And it takes time. Yes. But it also takes what you do with that time to get there. So seek help, reach out, don't be isolated. Don't be silent. There's guys out there that are going through this too. Right now there's guys out there that have been through this. Reach out. Yeah. That's good. Thank you.
23:15
Thanks for your honesty. Thanks for your emotion. Thanks for the tears and the joy. I love the sparkle in your eyes when you talk about your Thanks for being with us. Thank you guys. Take care.