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Interface is a podcast where we connect technology and culture through conversation. Interface is brought to you by EMPOWER at PROS. EMPOWER is dedicated to attracting, developing and retaining Black talent at PROS. PROS helps people and companies outperform by enabling smarter selling in the digital economy.
Jennifer: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] Welcome to Interface. I'm your host, Jennifer Plummer, and I'm joined with my co host, Matthew and Sierra. Today, our guest is Ayan Behi. She is a Somali Canadian UX Design Manager based in France, so global. Uh, she has dedicated over a decade to transforming perplexing problems into sleek, user centered solutions.
With a master's in industrial design and a B. A. in sociology, she possesses a unique ability to understand and empathize with users, ensuring that every design decision is guided by their needs and aspirations. As the host of Ascend UX. Podcast, she shares her [00:02:00] commitment to human centered design by exploring the intricacies of UX design and demystifies its impact on our daily lives, inviting listeners to join her on a journey of understanding and power of UX to transform the world around us.
She is also the founder of Arun Care, a holistic menstrual wellness brand dedicated to breaking taboos surrounding the menstruation and promoting period positivity through education and awareness. Welcome to Interface.
Ayan: Hello, thank you for having me. I'm excited for our chats for
Jennifer: I, I am,
Matthew: mention that Ascend is, is, uh, Pro's sister, or Interface's sister podcast. Um, Pro hosts several podcasts, so, um, yeah, I, I had a great, uh, podcast episode with Adishka, who's one of our UX colleagues, and, uh, top ten podcast episode. Go listen to it, check it out, you'll learn some things.
Jennifer: link in the
Ayan: And we also have a common [00:03:00] guest.
Jennifer: Yes. Yes. So our next
Ayan: We'll have a common guest soon. Kelsey. Kelsey Rigger.
Jennifer: up in a couple of weeks. So, um, But today we have you, and I would say when we started doing this about two years ago, as we are brainstorming people, your name always comes up. So I'm just super excited that we finally get to talk to you.
Ayan: oh, thank you. Well, I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to connect and get to chat with you all. So thank you for inviting me.
Jennifer: Of course. So we always like to start out with the origin story. So tell us how you came to be.
Ayan: Oh, that's a big one. Like that's like goes beyond me. It's like, let's get my parents in here. Um, I can tell you how I got to be.
I could, um, well, how did I get to be who I like professionally mean? Like, how did I get to be a UX design manager? What were the steps? What was the journey that took me here? Okay. Um, so I think while I was building that [00:04:00] path, it didn't seem very clear and straightforward, but looking back, it seems quite classic and kind of like, Oh yeah, that makes sense.
But when I was in it, it didn't. But, um, so as you said, I have my bachelor's degree in sociology. It's where I studied in Montreal. at Concordia University. And I took sociology just because I've always been fascinated on how things work. And so I can be in a, like a public space and just observe people and wonder like, why are they doing that?
Or what's that have, like, just trying to understand everything. So for me, sociology was kind of like getting to study the user manual of our societies and understanding why we do certain things and what's the structure and what's the kind of the reason behind it all. So I did that. I got my bachelor's degree.
And like a lot of bachelor's degrees, you finish up and you go, okay, that was great. What's next? So I didn't really see myself taking the next steps in academia, for example, getting a master's and going to PhD of sociology. I've always had a super passion for creativity. I've always loved [00:05:00] photography, drawing, just arts.
So I kind of wanted to go into a path of create like a creative path, but also I have immigrant parents. So they're like, you're not going to be a photographer. You're not going to eat. So find something more practical. Right. So I had to get to the drawing board and kind of figure out where that bridge could be.
Um, so I went traveling for a bit, kind of did some, you know, got lost as a 21 year old in the world and design kept on coming back. Uh, design is something that. Means so much because design has so many forms. It could be fashion design. It could be graphic design, but I knew that somewhere I wanted to put myself in.
Um, so I kind of started going understanding the different fields of design and different kinds of academia that existed around that. And I found industrial design. Um, I had an aha moment where I. Understood. My fascination to industrial design is that every single thing that we interact with every day has been thought of by somebody else.
And I thought that was really interesting. It's like [00:06:00] this benevolence that happens in our everyday life. I'm able to open a pen easier because somebody thought about what would be the best experience for me to open this pen. So I said, you know what? That would be really interesting. Um, let me explore that.
So I decided first before I decided to go like full into it, I took like a community college course where I was growing up to understand it a bit more. And I was like, okay, yeah, I get this. I like this. So I tried my luck and I said, you know what? I want to go to Paris. I want to study there. And I found an industrial design school and a master's program.
They accepted me. I didn't know what. was awaiting me after being accepted. So I'm very happy. I would kind of just like went straight forward with it without thinking too much. And I did my master's at NCS atelier in Paris. It's um, it's a very well coveted design school. So that's why I was saying like, I'm really happy.
I didn't know that before I applied. Cause I don't think I would have applied if I thought, if I knew about like the prestige of the school. So I was very naive or [00:07:00] naive. No, Being naive can be a good thing sometimes. And so I was there, I was learning, uh, industrial design really from the foundations. And I realized that product design, so physical objects wasn't really for me.
I think we have a lot of products in this world, a lot of objects we could do with less actually. So I didn't want to add another object into the world. And so I definitely had an existential crisis there. I was like, I moved all the way to France. The path that I thought was the path for me is not exactly what I want to be doing.
What do I do now? And so I didn't want to quit yet. I'm very stubborn, but I decided to do an internship. And there at the time, over 10 years ago, a word that kept on coming up was UX design, user experience. And when something interests me, I'm always curious to go towards it to learn. So that's where I did my internship.
It was at a UX agency and thankfully they're very based in research. And I love research. It's something I had done when I was in sociology. And that was like, [00:08:00] Wow, I can take my practice from sociology and apply it into design. And that was kind of this bridge. So from there, the internship became a job. I got to work at the agency as I was finishing my studies.
And then, etc, etc. I left to go into agency work where I was at Accenture Interactive. And then from there, I went into product and at prose. And I got to grow and become, uh, UX design manager. So that's what I was saying. Like when I was building all of these elements together, it didn't seem clear, but looking back now, sociology and industrial design to UX designs seems very straightforward.
Jennifer: Everything just clicked into place kind of, and it's like, yeah, this all makes sense now. Yeah.
Ayan: the dots got to connect, but it's only through looking back that I see how the dots were connecting.
Matthew: I think that's really interesting your comment about, um, someone thought about the best experience for a product. I was watching, uh, NFL ad or AWS ad or [00:09:00] I don't know what it was, but there was a like a hard of hearing, uh, quarterback player and someone like made a, like a, a little eye, uh, like glass for their helmet so they could, um, Um, any audibles that the coaches were telling them from the sideline because they were unable to hear or see the signs.
And I just remember like seeing that and being like, wow, like hard of hearing deaf people, they don't really come into my purview every day. I don't have like a lot of, But it's so cool that someone saw like an issue and then, you know, solve that problem. So yeah, it's a really interesting tidbit that you just mentioned.
Ayan: Yeah, it's kind of like feeling that you're cared for by these strangers who thought about what you're going through right there and then and how to interact with an experience. Feels good.
Jennifer: so as a design manager, what is your. What does your typical day, uh, look like?
Ayan: Lately, it's not been so typical. It's like very chaotic, but um, I think it really [00:10:00] depends. So the classic manager is, I make sure, sorry, the classic manager role is making sure that I connect with my team, the one on ones. bi weekly, sorry, every week. Uh, that's kind of the standard. And then having the overview of making sure that our goals and our strategies being pushed forward lately.
And I think it really depends on the company. I'm actually having my hands in the clay. So I'm actually going back into the role of being a designer, which I love because for me, designing essentially is solving problems through creative means that could also be as a manager, because as a manager, you're given problems all the time and you kind of have to support people to find those solutions.
So my every day, it's gone. I think a few years ago or a few months ago, the everyday manager role would be kind of much more personal. So meeting with people, connecting with people, helping them get their role done. But today, as a manager, I'm also kind of applying my skills as a designer. So it really changes.
But a lot of meetings, a lot of getting to understand what [00:11:00] the problem is and trying to formalize that.
Jennifer: What percentage of your time would you say is management and what percentage is hands in the clay? And
Ayan: it's Maybe a bit 50 50 or close to that aspect, because even if one of my hands are in the clay, I'm still taking kind of like a managerial role. So maybe I would say manager is still a bit higher because I'm taking the design role from a bit higher perspective. Like, okay, how can we streamline this?
How can we get this to connect to the bigger picture? Rather than just kind of thinking I have to execute what's been asked of me.
Matthew: Yeah, I think there's been a big shift, at least from the market standpoint, of like flattening the org chart where you kind of take off that middle management and they're more of like individual contributors. Um, can you maybe speak more to like that, the benefit of doing that? Because it sounds like you're more hands on than maybe you were in the past.
Ayan: Uh, the benefit is I kind of [00:12:00] understand. Rather than just kind of delegating and executing, I get to kind of put my hands in and maybe have a bigger picture. So, for example, if we're working on a product, I get to understand. Okay. I understand that somebody else is working on this. So let's connect with them and push that forward to have a bigger impact rather than just kind of thinking of it in a silo space.
I think that could be a benefit. Um, and also my team sees that I'm just not telling them what to do. I'm also doing it. And I try to create that as a dialogue saying, look, this is something I had as a problem. You might have this problem as well. This is how I resolved it. How would you, so it's kind of, it's really kind of breaking a bit of that hierarchy and showing them that I'm also having similar challenges as they are.
Siara: And for any of our listeners who aren't familiar with a user experience design, can you just give us like a brief overview of what that role is and what they do.
Ayan: Yeah. Yeah. With pleasure. Great question. So what I usually say to somebody is think about the favorite. UX is usually connected to digital [00:13:00] experiences. So what I, but you can also have it in like a physical experience, but so what I ask somebody is think about the application or product you use the most often.
Um, I'll ask anybody here who wants to be my, who wants to do a little Q and a with me.
Matthew: Spotify. I'll do it. Let's do it. I love
Ayan: All right. So Matthew, what's the, what's the product that you use the most
Matthew: Spotify. All the time.
Ayan: Spotify. Spotify.
Matthew: Yep.
Ayan: Okay. So Spotify has most naturally a UX team and the UX team is thinking about how can we improve how Matthew is going to be going on to Spotify.
So Matthew, you're most likely going on there to listen to music and podcasts, right?
Matthew: You got it. I'm
Ayan: So the goal is for you to be able to find the music or podcast that you're listening to, perhaps being able to save it and share it, perhaps. So we have to consider all of the needs of Matthew, who we would create as a persona.
There's also going to be other people who are using Spotify, the people who are might be adding the music or the podcast that Matthew's using. So it's kind [00:14:00] of a dialogue. So we are creating, to summarize it in a very simple form, UX experience is making technology usable for humans. If we weren't there, it might just be kind of like, here's a box, click here, press play.
But that might not be the best experience for Matthew because he wants to maybe get information about this, the song or information about the podcast before he presses play. So we're going to talk to Matthew. We're going to talk.
Jennifer: my solution is, look, they can, they can play the song. They can play the song. It's fine. It's good. That's why we need. Yeah. Yeah.
Matthew: thinking back to the episode with Thomas. I'm pretty sure this exact same conversation got brought up.
Ayan: It's a
Matthew: give me a button. It'll work. It'll be fine. Yeah.
Ayan: reason.
Jennifer: it's necessary. That's a
Ayan: that reason. So it's,
Jennifer: Sorry. Sorry to interrupt.
Matthew: Key tip. Don't let engineers do
Ayan: we make,
Matthew: No, go ahead. Go for it.
Ayan: no, that's how I summarize it. We make [00:15:00] technology usable by, for humans and improving how you interact with technology to make it enjoyable and wanting to come back. And use it more.
Jennifer: Great example. Great example. So what advice would you give for people that are interested in improving the experience of the applications that they're using every day? People that are interested in UX.
Ayan: So as designers or people who are just want to learn about UX,
Jennifer: Yes. maybe you can explain the
Ayan: people want to learn about. Okay. So I think if you're like, Hey, UX seems something interesting. I'd love to learn about it more. What's really great is that we are surrounded by applications. We are surrounded by interfaces in every day. So, and there's probably reasons why you choose one over the other.
And I'm most likely going to guess it's because of the UX. So kind of try to do some retroengineering, understanding why do I prefer this tool over the other? And what is it [00:16:00] that makes it enjoyable for me? I'm sure that we've opened many applications and just closed them and saying, Oh, that sucks. But kind of going deeper and try to understand why does that suck?
Is it because it loads for too long? Is it because there's no feedback to let you know why it's loading for too long? Is it because you can't do certain actions? So I would say try to get into that mindset of understanding how and what you're interacting with. Um, another thing for somebody who is in UX and kind of wants to improve their skills.
I think it's similar. It's just try to always ask yourself what you're interacting with and maybe looking at other people's work. I think that's what's really cool is that we're constantly testing out other people's work in our field because I'm using a phone. I'm like, Oh, wow, that's a really great application that.
Or idea with, um, how they did, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that's what's really great. Um, and for people who are in UX and want to improve, I think maybe build a network, connect with other UX designers to understand what they're doing and getting that feedback.
Jennifer: What about the [00:17:00] research component, uh, to UX? Um, because you mentioned you already had that background in sociology. Is that something that people should be studying? Or what kind of training is available to know how to?
Yeah.
Ayan: So for me. UX design without research is not UX design. I know that's a pretty bold statement, but that's just how I feel because you need to understand, um, sorry, my cat has decided to steal the show. I'm just going to put her aside. It's not her time. She can do her own podcast. Sorry, Rita. Um, so I could take that from the top. Sorry about that. So I think research is essential for UX design. And the reasons why I feel this way is that without research, you're not doing UX design. You're really just creating based on what you think would work.
UX design is stepping out of my. [00:18:00] Biases, stepping away from my presumptions and understanding the needs of another. So for example, Matthew, you spoke earlier about that football player and their needs. I wouldn't be able to understand that because I have, I don't have that problem that they have. So to do and to create a product or a service that's really going to fulfill their needs, I need to talk to them.
I need to put myself in their shoes and have that empathy. Without that, I'm probably going to create something that does not fulfill their needs and maybe might even create more frustration for them. So that's what's essential for research. How can people learn about research? Well, it's mostly the scientific method.
And that's where I meant earlier that I was able to take my my experiences in sociology and pivot it into design. It's because it's really, you have a hypothesis saying, um, for example, if we create a side preview in a helmet, it'll allow the user to improve their visibility and communicate with their coach.
Let's go test this. [00:19:00] Let's get maybe. You always want a minimum of five testers. Let's get a minimum of five testers who have this problem, get their feedback. We're going to iterate from there. We're going to improve, put that in, maybe do some more tests. And then from there we'll ship it and produce it. So research is essential.
And also saves you surprises and money down the line, because I don't know if you guys remember this product. It was a few years ago called juiceroo. So juiceroo was like the super fancy Silicon Valley or like anyways, this super fancy startup and their idea was to reinvent the way that you have.
Smoothies. So you had this like 1, 000 smoothie machine and you would be able to control it from your smartphone and you would order these little like juice packs that would come to your house every day. Sounds really great. Everybody needs to improve their nutrition. This could be a great product, but I don't think they tested.
Because what they did was in there [00:20:00] doing like, uh, they sent it out. They're ready to launch. They sent it out after millions and millions of dollars in investment. They sent it out to journalists. And what the journalists realized is that you can just literally squash the juice pack. You don't need that fancy machine. So we talk about juiceroos past tense now because it no longer exists. So without that research, if they had done that. They might have realized that what the path that they had taken was not really the best path and they would have been able to pivot towards what would have made their company viable.
So once again, UX without research is not UX. So research, um, and you can learn how to do research on your own is maybe just talking with friends. There's different methods of research. It could be interviews. The most important thing to keep in mind is. To avoid bias and you don't want to lead people. So you're really kind of always stepping away from yourself and try to be as objective as possible.
Matthew: Yeah, I really like that idea of avoiding bias. I find that we're [00:21:00] partnering with the UX here at Pros is like one of my favorite things to do. I have a tendency to go into those meetings with a very strong point of view, but then I find that I'm very much grounded by UX and they keep me honest and they don't let me like, Oh, let's just do this.
No, but like they need reasons. They push back and I just really like that partnership. I wanted to ask maybe. Um, since we're on this kind of topic of advice, you mentioned that when you look back on your like life or your career path, um, it makes a lot of sense and you're connecting dots. And I, I listened to a podcast about how our, our brains kind of do that automatically.
But what, but while you're in it, it's not clear. And then you kind of mentioned like you're naive and that can be a good thing. Cause then like you, you don't really know your limitations and like anything is possible. Um, and then you also mentioned about. You kind of went forward with something, and you didn't really think about it too much, but it kind of worked out for you.
How do you find that balance between, hey, I'm naive and the world is my oyster, [00:22:00] and I want to, you know, go do some great things and have impact, versus kind of like, maybe hesitant and, um, you know, really thinking about your next steps, and having everything planned. I feel like there's that balance between, um, open to possibilities and not just blowing in the wind.
Ayan: So if I understand what's my path of how to overcome that, or is that the question?
Matthew: Um, yeah, great follow up. It would be, how, where, what, if you had to look back, did you have a balance there between, hey, we're just kind of figuring this out in the moment, and I have a plan. I, I know what I want to accomplish.
Ayan: Yeah, good question. I knew the initial goal was to, I think. The theme in my life is stepping out of my comfort zone. I feel like when I'm in my comfort, that's where I get bored and that's where I [00:23:00] need to grow, so I challenge myself. And that was the intention of leaving Canada to go to France. Leaving my comfort of being with my family, although I have family in France, but, um, leaving what I knew to go to the unknown in hopes that would lead me to something better.
That's kind of always been my goal. You make sacrifices to grow. Did I have a plan? No, I didn't say once I finish my design studies, I will be doing XYZ. Maybe I should have sometimes I look back I'm like, maybe I should have been more intentional Where would I be if I had that but I think sometimes it's nice to leave a bit of serendipity and fate to life Because you can say I'm gonna do this.
I'm gonna be this in five years, but then life happens and You're taken by surprise, so it's kind of finding a balance. It's saying, this is where I'd like to go. I'll do everything I can to get there. And have a broad picture of where you want to go, [00:24:00] but then let life kind of weave the elements and the details in by itself,
Jennifer: Right. Because then if something doesn't go,
Ayan: because, for example,
Jennifer: I said, if something doesn't go according to plan,
Ayan: go on, Jennifer,
Jennifer: you won't feel as dejected, right? It's just an opportunity. Okay. I had a very strict plan. Am I upset that it didn't happen? Or is this an opportunity to go in a different direction? Kind of be more flexible as far as where the road takes you.
Ayan: for sure. And sometimes where that road takes you is where you're meant to be, because I had this idea that I'd be a product designer. And then I realized I didn't want to be a product designer. And it's taken me to what I think is a successful career as a UX designer. So it's just really allowing yourself to pivot and be open to that instead of just being strict and thinking.
Oh, I want to go this path. I didn't get that path. Therefore I'm a failure.
Jennifer: So let's change gears a little bit, um, I wanted to get your opinion on what programs do you think companies should implement [00:25:00] to increase black talent in technology?
Ayan: Yeah, that's a, that's a good question. What programs? Well, I think there's a lot of things. Um, and it's hard cause you have to, I'm going to put on my CEO hat here then. Um, what program? I think it's just providing opportunities from people from different backgrounds and not saying that there's only one type of path that can fulfill a role.
That's kind of the bigger picture. I think. What other programs can be put in place something that I think I shared this with you, Jennifer last week is that we've done in the UX program is we cater to externship. So it's allowing people to kind of job shadow for 2 days from different profiles to see and reveal that question of what is UX.
So they get to sit down with us kind of job shadow, go to meetings and get to see what we do. I think that's a nice little program as well. Provides people from different profiles to see what we do. Um, I think maybe also understand. And. And accept the [00:26:00] fact that maybe not all employees are at the same level, just due to sociological reasons, right?
And creating programs where people can feel That they can grow. Um, I don't know. I think it's a hard question because it's, it's so, it's so multifaceted, but I think putting in place elements to support people from different backgrounds is important. And I think I shared this link. It's, um, that just came out as a research study.
It was a collaboration between Harvard University, MIT and Boston University. It was led by Professor Elizabeth Linos and she was looking at the impact of success for women, Black women. And the importance of being surrounded by other black women and what they found in the research is that when the black woman were not supported or not working with other people, black woman in their teams, there are more likely to have leave the company and not succeed in their career trajectory.[00:27:00]
So it's really creating spaces where people can connect, creating diversity within the company. But I can talk more about my own path of what kind of things were important to me, I guess, as a black woman. I find the program. It's hard for me to be honest. Um, so I've worked in a lot of spaces and I've often been, I think, in a few companies, the only black woman.
And I definitely can relate to that research that was shown that was found because it's definitely isolating when you are, when you are like the token, if you will. And it can be really hard on yourself and the way that you interact and navigate that career space. And that's probably one of the reasons why I've left.
certain companies is that you feel there's microaggressions to a certain extent. You're like, why are my colleagues only talking to me about rap music? You know, it's kind of like, it's not, there's, it's strange. And then you wonder, is that, is my skin color eclipsing my capacity as an employee, because if that's the goal, then if that's what's [00:28:00] happening, then that's kind of not the reason that I'm there.
Right. I've been hired. To do a job and not my identity. So I definitely think that's important. And today at pros, one thing I think is great is it's super diverse from, from my perspective of coming from places where I've always been the only black woman. So I think that's really great to feel that you're not alone and there's other people coming from different places.
And I think from a company perspective, it is so important to have that diversity because differences be it skin, be it. Gender, be it. Anything brings a different perspective of thought, and that's going to be so important for a company because if everybody's thinking the same, you're probably not going to succeed because we're all going to say, yes, that's the right path.
But if you have somebody who has a different perspective, then it's going to bring innovation. It's going to bring different ways of thinking and allow a company to succeed. So I think a company needs diversity, how it's applied. That's hard, I think, because there is what companies say, and there's a [00:29:00] difference of what companies do.
Jennifer: Absolutely agree. And I also wanted to touch base on the, um, I think those are all good things for companies to think of. I think another issue with black talent in technology is, um, Knowing that that's a career and I feel like the externship is, is a good way to expose people, um, to a day in the life of this is what this person is doing and for the curious, if you're curious about something, Hey, let me, let me sit with you for a few days and kind of get an idea of what that is.
And even just being, you know, say, you know, say I bring someone to my development team. Well, not only are you going to know what a. developer is doing, but you're going to see what the product managers are doing. You're going to see what UX is doing. You're going to see, you know, how the, you know, the executive decisions, you know, what the executives are doing and how that affects the team.
Uh, so yeah, I, I really think that's a good idea to just really, um, Share that with, um, you know, whoever's curious, you know, if you ever [00:30:00] happen to, you know, meet, you know, a young individual who's like, yeah, I'm in, like you said, when you get your bachelor's, you have no clue what you're doing. So, you know, that, that, that student that's like, yeah, I'm doing this, but I don't know what this means.
And it's like, oh, well, come on by the office. I'll have you shadow someone for a couple of days. That'll at least expose you to something and you'll use that experience for whatever decisions you have in the future.
Ayan: One thing I definitely think to lean into is networks. So I've definitely sat down with a lot of young black students who are thinking about what they want to get into. And I kind of just allow them and share what I do to give them a bit of visibility and provide that idea of you can do this too.
Because when I got out of my bachelor's, I didn't know UX design existed. I think it was just being formed, but it's allowing that visibility and knowledge to be existent. Sorry, Matthew, I cut you off.
Matthew: You're good. I, I'm curious, uh, if you can maybe tell us more about how the externship works. Is it, y'all at PROSE do it on the UX [00:31:00] team? Maybe like, are you getting kind of approval from other people's managers? Like, how, how does the team feel about that? Like, yeah, definitely want more information.
Ayan: It was very spontaneous. So one of our teammates said, Hey, I have an alumni from my school who would like to get to know a bit more about UX. Do you mind if she comes and sits with us for two days? So then I was like, Oh, that's interesting. Let's see what we can do. So I reached out to the human resources team at pros and I proposed this idea and they're like, okay, this sounds actually awesome.
It's a great way for us to connect with different people who might not be eligible for the internship program. So interns, you have to be a student. So this allows us to kind of have people who are not in that. Just different profiles. So I worked with them, we kind of put in place, you need, like, a bit of confidentiality, of course.
And, they get to, they, in the Houston office, they came in for two days, and they sat with the meetings, got to meet different people, because within the UX team, we have different roles. So you have UX, then you have UI, which is user interface, [00:32:00] and then we also have the research team. So they got to sit down with each person from those teams to understand what they do on a daily basis.
Uh, as a designer, I love feedback, so I gave them a questionnaire before they started to ask them what's their expectations. What are they learning? What are they hoping to learn? And then once they finished on the second day, we gave them the same survey to get feedback from them as well. Just so that we can improve and understand if this is beneficial.
We did a second round as well. This was in The France office in Nice. And it was similar. So the person just came in, sat with us, got to kind of see some meetings and sit with us and kind of understand better what we do because they were interested in leaving their career and coming into UX.
Siara: That's really cool. Um, I had not ever heard that that was happening in UX. I think we should do it in more departments and more teams.
Ayan: Yeah. HR was really into it. So I think they'd be down. And for me, it's something that came to me and my team member was asked to do it. So I said, why not? There's no, [00:33:00] let's see if we can. And if there's nothing, if there's no risk for us, why not bring somebody in and let them get it, like give them a bit of visibility of what we get to do
Matthew: Yeah, and especially if it's, um, like if you're working internal, there's a, there's like second and tertiary benefits to that. I find that. When I reach out to someone and I'm like, Hey, what do you do? They give me enough context for their area of the business that now I know, okay, I know how to connect to that, that person and what they're doing.
And I kind of understand that area of the business. I get to know them as a little bit better and just, I, working virtually, like, I, these meetings, you know, this interface podcast, like, any of those connections, those are all something that just help me feel more connected to the business as a whole and then, you know, What that does is it drives more, like, just um, energy and engagement towards my work and my colleagues.
It's just like, there's a lot of extra benefits that happen when you just kind [00:34:00] of break down silos and just mix people a little bit.
Ayan: Yeah. And I love doing that, but I think something you did that was really great was just, I think you asked me one day to meet for a virtual coffee and just to connect. And that's, that's also a great way to connect with people internally because a lot of us are remote. So we're kind of, you know, when you get into a meeting, it's like, Hey, how are you?
Okay. Let's get to the agenda. So getting those moments where you get to connect with somebody and. Get to understand them from a human perspective is always great as
Matthew: Ooh, have you heard about conversational threading?
Ayan: No, I
Matthew: I'm about to give a little bit of a secret away. Um, so, it's this idea of, you know, the whole Hey, how are you doing? I'm fine. How are you? I'm fine. Okay, the purpose of today's meeting. Very, very, uh, 90 percent of the meetings I'm in. There is this idea of conversational threading where, um, you give people hooks to latch onto or, or take.
So, um, you ask me, I, so for example, I ask you, how are you doing? You say, I'm fine, how are you? And I say, [00:35:00] I'm great. And then I give like some, just slightly right below, like, you know, when you're talking too much, you're kind of going on like too much context, but just enough to where you can, Ask a follow up.
So like a lot of times it's like if I've gone on a walk. I'll let people know. Yeah, I'm great I went on a walk and I got to see sunshine because you don't see that here in Seattle And then we'll laugh we'll talk about it and it's just like maybe three to five minutes extra Before business and then yeah, I just know that person a little bit more So very much encourage everybody to just give a little bit more than I'm good.
I'm fine. Everything's great Just a little bit of extra detail goes a long way.
Ayan: Yeah. Get human. Get human those
Matthew: Oh gay human. I like it
Siara: even more in this new virtual world we're getting used to, for sure.
Jennifer: Yes, for sure. Okay, so my, my random rambling, I can now call conversational threading. I don't have to feel guilty about it. Okay, cool.[00:36:00]
Ayan: There's a name for it now.
Jennifer: It's always good to have a name for it.
Siara: Yeah.
Jennifer: Now it's time for the heat check. The heat check is a segment where the Interface co hosts share an interesting or hot topic happening in the technology space or Black culture. Um, and we also invite Ayaan. So, I don't know, Ayaan, did you bring something today for a heat check?
Ayan: I think maybe that research project I spoke about, if that's cool, or I don't know, what, what do you guys, what do you have for a heat check? What'd y'all bring? What's your homework?
Jennifer: went around, I've got something Um, let me go first. I'll just say it put that way. So, uh, a few years ago, um, one of the trainings that I really enjoyed that Pro sent me on was this Mandel training on the SkyPab technique, um, which is basically when you're How to organize a presentation [00:37:00] to try to get a call to action and get people on your side.
And so, SkyPab is Situation, Complication, Implication, Position, Action, Benefit. Um, so it doesn't quite roll off the tongue. Um, but I always, it's Google able, so whenever I need to do it, I can at least Google it and get. Um, the things, um, but I ran across, um, I get like a management tip of the day, um, from Harvard Business Review.
And it's basically the same. It's like the title is, try this hack to communicate more effectively. And it's basically the SkyCab, but it's a little easier, um, format to remember. It's basically the what, so what. And now what? So it kind of breaks that into those, into those things. So I was like, that's going to be a lot easier to remember than Skyfab.
It's basically the same stuff. Um, but, um, yeah, it'll be easier. Have you ever had [00:38:00] to build a presentation where you had to convince someone or something and you're like, how do I do that?
Ayan: Yeah, for sure. Always. That's, I think that's the goal of a presentation.
Jennifer: Yeah. So,
Matthew: Oh, yeah.
Siara: a lot of time trying to get buy in from people about my big ideas.
Jennifer: Yeah, so what? So what? Like, why should we care about this? And now what? Call to action. So hopefully that'll help you in the future.
Siara: I love it.
Ayan: I like that.
Jennifer: Who would like
Siara: want to go next or you want me to come?
Matthew: I'm interested in hearing Ion's research.
Ayan: Uh, I don't know if I did the homework right. I have to.
Siara: Well, you can
Matthew: You're well
Siara: overview of of the and we're going to put the link in the show notes where people can get more info.
Ayan: yeah, so for me, it was just, uh, I thought that was really interesting. I think I stumbled upon this online and then I read the article after, but it's really just looking at the, it's not just, often we talk [00:39:00] about hiring. Black talent or hiring diversity. And what she showed is that, yes, that's just one step, but the next is how do you retain them?
So it's creating, I guess, spaces where people feel welcome or where they can grow. So I thought that was interesting because it reflected kind of my own personal experiences. And sometimes when I hear these kinds of things, you wonder what can be done. So I guess that goes to now what right, Jennifer, in that aspect, it's like, okay, so I understand this now.
What can be done? Because sometimes when you read statistics, either be it like, um, the impact of investment for. Black entrepreneurs or the state of being in corporate, like corporate or tech for black employees, you come times sometimes can feel defeated. You're just like, Oh, okay, that's, that's it. What can I do?
So it's always nice to think about, okay, what can, what can I do about this? Or what can we do to not feel that there's, we're just blocked and this is the way it is. [00:40:00] So that's what I found is interesting about that research. It reflected kind of my personal experiences and it goes into what I reflect on sometimes as a manager is in regards of the hiring.
You want to kind of check your own biases, but also kind of thinking about what can you do or what's important to retain,
Jennifer: I think the retention is so key. Yeah, the retention piece, I think, is something that isn't discussed as much, is, right, oh, we're going to recruit people and look, this is a great place and okay, we've done it, you're here. Um, but yeah, are you grooming that person? You know, most, you know, maybe not most people, a lot of people get hired at a position, but they have.
Um, you know, they know that, you know, in 10 years, they don't expect to still be at that position. They want to grow with a company. And so if a company doesn't have a focus on how you're attaining or, you know, what, you know, why should any individual stay here, what, what's [00:41:00] in it for, you know, what it's in it for that person to grow, um, professionally, um, then, yeah, it's only half the battle because then you're just going to be in the recruit.
You're going to be recruiting again and again and again and again.
Siara: I think it ties back to Um, I think we use this word a lot, but the intentionality and thinking about the employee journey and building the company culture around. Yes. We want to be a destination company. We want you to come and work for us and you have a job to do, but also. Um, making sure that that person understands that we want you to grow and we support your growth.
And this is a safe space for you to bring up, you know, concerns or challenges and things like that. And I obviously that's a very big picture and kind of the entire company has to be on board with really nurturing and cultivating that type of culture.
Matthew: Also, it's cheaper to retain talent than
Siara: Absolutely.
Jennifer: Good [00:42:00] point. Very good point. Very good point.
Ayan: And I guess it's also very nuanced, right? If somebody who is hiring And maybe maintaining a team doesn't understand that very complex situation of, as you said, is the safe space, then that can be completely missed. And that you lose a lot of talent for that reason. So it's understanding that empathy.
Jennifer: Empathy, yeah. Uh, solves so many things. Well, is a part of so many things. Just to be good people and have good things to do. Sierra,
Matthew: I'm gonna go next, with the finger guns. I got it, I got it. Um, yeah, so, let me, uh, pull an ad hoc disclaimer. This is not financial advice. This is informational purposes only. Um, I am talking about Bitcoin being approved as an ETF, um, for 11 issuers. So, what's an ETF? Um, look at my notes. Exchange, trade, traded fund.
It's a type of investment fund that [00:43:00] tracks the performance of specific Uh, the index, commodity, et cetera, other assets. So you can think about if I want to invest in a specific company, I buy stock in that company versus I want to buy a stock that kind of encompasses several companies, I would invest in that kind of ETF.
So that's what an ETF is. And so previously Bitcoin, you know, it's very much in that cryptocurrency stock. So if I want a Bitcoin, I buy a Bitcoin directly or a percentage of a Bitcoin and then Um, very volatile market, so be careful with your investments. Um, disclaimer again. Um, so yeah, now, now there is an introduction that you are able to buy Bitcoins in the same way that you can buy ETFs.
So, an ETF fund for Bitcoin. Um, and the SEC has approved that, um, for 11 issuers. Um, it's kind of interesting because there is massive risk associated with Bitcoin cryptocurrency in general. And usually when you look at ETF funds, [00:44:00] they're, um, I guess ETFs. Um, there are more of that, like, safer bet. Um, so, you know, if I invest in Apple and I put all my eggs in that basket and Apple tomorrow just crashes, I lose all my eggs.
Versus, I've invested in several software companies and one of them crashes. At least my fund portfolio doesn't crash along with it and it's kind of safer. So, yeah. I'm, I'm kind of curious to see, like, I think this is a big bridge between, like, Bitcoin becoming more, uh, mainstream and, and looked at as an investment.
I, I know there's still some conversation I have with, you know, people's parents where they're like, You should invest in gold. And I say, you know, gold's only 4, 000 and Bitcoin is 44, 000. So what's, what's actually gold nowadays? So yeah, I, I'm curious, like, do you, do you all invest in Bitcoin? Like, how does that work?
I know for me, I like put 5 every other week. to it, so I'm not spending 44k, but
Siara: I'm not invested at all in Bitcoin.[00:45:00]
Jennifer: Nope.
Ayan: I haven't yet. It's always on my to do list. Um, I feel like it's something that I want to learn a bit more about before I put money in there, but it's something, I think it's here to stay. So I'm curious to kind of understand it a bit more to feel confident, but
Siara: I'm not an early
Ayan: it's all my to do list.
Siara: type of girl. I need to see tried and true before I dip my toe in.
Matthew: Uh, yeah, I'll challenge that and say, um, early adopter was when Bitcoin was like 10 cents and you could buy a piece of pizza, or a large pizza for 20, 000 bitcoins, which is probably, what, a couple million dollars in today, so maybe miss the early adopter train. I've also missed that train, unfortunately, um.
But I, I think that there's a lot of interesting use cases for Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in general. Um, mostly around circum, circumventing, you know, centralized financial, uh, you know, [00:46:00] whatever incumbents. Um, so if I wanted, for example, if I wanna send my host family money to Guinea, I have to go through like PayPal or um, some sort of exchange, which is Western Union.
And then, you know, I send a hundred bucks over there and I'm actually only actually sending $72 because. Western Union takes so many fees. But now with Bitcoin, I don't have to do Western Union, I can just go directly and give you the money. , there's like the whole use case for, you know, you can kind of track where that money is, is coming from because it's all digitally marked.
Um, I think that, yeah, once we kind of shift into Bitcoin being like that whole I don't know how it works. I can't figure this out I'm not gonna use that and we you know, we work at pros. We kind of run into that problem of explainable AI It's in that same vein like you I don't really know how my car works, but it works
Jennifer: I don't know how the existing financial institutions work. This is kind of the same, you know?[00:47:00]
Siara: Fair point. All right, so I guess I'm the last, the last one to go. Um, so interestingly enough, um, as a podcast host, I do drink the Kool Aid and I listen to a lot of podcasts. And interestingly also, um, Today's conversation is perfect for my heat check. So I've been seeing snippets of Michelle Obama, our forever first lady, um, her conversation with Jay Shetty on his podcast on purpose.
Um, and. Obviously, I love Michelle Obama and so I got an opportunity to listen to the episode and she talks a lot about some of the things that we talked about being open to new people and new experiences and all of that. So I think it's a great heat check. I didn't do that on purpose. Obviously, I don't know what we're going to talk about today, but it's perfect.
Um, so the conversation is really centered around her [00:48:00] last book that she published, the light we carry haven't read it yet, but it's on my audible already. It's Um, and just a few of the topics that she discussed, um, being open to people and experiences, making hard decisions, um, especially I think in black culture, sometimes that means leaving people behind or, um, you know, people can't come with you for the full journey and having to make hard decisions and kind of being selfish to accomplish your own goals.
Um. She talks a lot about mindful use of technology and being married to the president, how she knows a lot about a lot, and she wishes that she didn't know a lot of things and those kinds of things that keep her up for a night. And she talks a lot about relationships, not just. Including her marriage to former president Barack Obama, but her relationships with her friends and her children, her family, um, and how to, you know, show up better in [00:49:00] relationships.
So it was a very good episode. I will. I will listen or read anything that she puts out because I think she's just fantastic. And so, um, I hope you guys go and check the episode out. The link will be in the show notes.
Jennifer: I don't even think I've heard of the Jay Shetty podcast at all, so that's news for me. But you know who has a new podcast that I'm really
Ayan: It's good. I was listening to one of the other day.
Jennifer: Um, Trevor Noah now has a podcast because I was missing him on The Daily Show. Um, so now I'm going to get my Trevor fix on his new podcast.
Siara: I heard that I haven't listened to his, but I, I need to find it and listen to an episode.
Jennifer: I forget what it's called. Yeah, I'll have to let you know. But he's interviewed Bill Gates, The Rock, um, Janelle Monáe. Um, so he's had a variety of guests so far, uh, [00:50:00] so I'm looking forward to
Siara: Sounds like a good one.
Jennifer: yeah.
Siara: All right. Who's wrapping us up today? Is it me or you, Jenny?
Jennifer: You, you do it. You do it.
Ayan: I have a thought. Can I go, I was thinking about your question a bit more in detail. What can companies do? Can I add a little snippet to
Jennifer: do.
Ayan: So I think what's important, what I think it's important in regards to your question to what can companies do to have more diversity or encourage more black people Uh, employees into their companies is walking the walk.
So a few years ago, there was a lot of discussion about diversity and there's a lot of presence of DEI and companies. I don't know if it was just me, but I was always very cynical when I would see these, uh, these initiatives. Because there's the high level talk and there is the experience that you have every day as an employee. And some of these big tech companies, a little detail that I would see through my eye of a UX designer is, Okay, so we all use emojis, [00:51:00] right? And something that I find very annoying is when I have to constantly change the skin color of my emoji.
Jennifer: Yeah.
Ayan: Does that happen to you all?
Siara: Yeah,
Ayan: about diversity and inclusion and making sure everybody's existent.
In their company, every single time I have to change and provide an expression through emoji, I have to change my skin color. So you see a big disconnect between what the company is talking about and what the company is actually applying. So you can also imagine the disconnect that's happening within the company.
Because it is, it's a small detail, but it's much easier to change a line of code than for me to change my skin color. And I think that's what I say, like walking the walk. It's just not saying this big picture, but looking at all the different details that exist of creating inclusive, safe spaces for employees or even for users within the products.
Because if we talk about AI, for [00:52:00] example, one thing that comes up often is a lot of these AI models. Are not necessarily inclusive for black communities or colored communities because they're not being created by individuals who are being represented. So there's a disconnect and it's often being used against our communities rather than for our communities.
And I believe, oh, gosh, the name is, the name is mistaken, but there's a really great documentary about this. You have a researcher from MIT and she realizes that when she's using face recognition tools that she's been modeling and creating, they don't recognize her. Her black, she's a black researcher and they don't recognize her.
So when she goes to her nearby store and buys a white mask, and then she's recognized like, you know, like the, um, Friday the 13th kind of mask. So she puts that on in front of the models that are the face recognition and then they get realized. And it just shows you that most of these individuals who are creating these facial recognition models are white and they're not considering our melanin [00:53:00] rich.
Skin. So it's really kind of thinking about all of these elements. It's not just saying we are including everybody into our company, but it's also thinking about how the different nuances of how that could be applied. So I think it's not just thinking big, it's going into the detail of how companies can retain, hire, and include black talent in their.
In their company.
Jennifer: Was that, um, coded bias? Is that the name of the?
Ayan: Yes, there. That's it. Yeah. Thank you so much. Coded bias. It's a great documentary. It often gets mentioned
Siara: I think maybe, maybe,
Jennifer: a couple times. Yeah, I can't. I know we've discussed it before.
Ayan: and I think, and I think another thing is like showcasing people within the company who are different and maybe have different profiles. Um, one thing I did all my research for joining you guys today was, um. The power of seeing [00:54:00] things that you might think is impossible being achieved. So, for example, I think it was in 1954, you have Roger Bannister, who was a runner.
He was an Olympic runner, and he decided to do something that he had been told before was not possible. And that was running the one mile run under four minutes. Before everybody said it was impossible, but he was able to achieve it at like three minutes and like 59 seconds. What do you think happened after he achieved that?
Jennifer: of other people were able to get subbed
Matthew: didn't get It got beaten by like a good amount of time, right?
Ayan: So he was the, he kind of was the pioneer and then he opened up the possibilities to others because people saw that he was able to achieve it. So I think it's really great to take up space and to show like people that we exist and we're doing things and we're working in tech so that can inspire other people as well.
Matthew: Aka start a podcast
Jennifer: And that's what I was gonna say. [00:55:00] Hopefully, hopefully that's what Interface Podcast is doing. That's That's kind of one of the premises is showing people like you, Diane, that, hey, this is their story. Um, if this is something that you want to achieve or you're interested or you're curious about, go out and, you know, do it and, you know, we'll talk, you know, and the variety of roles that are available.
So, um, you know, if you can see it, you can
Ayan: It's so important because sometimes just It's political. Absolutely. Because sometimes just being present in a space is being political, right? You're saying, I'm here. I will not be silent. I will speak up when I think I have an opinion to share. And that's sometimes enough. That's so, so thank you for having me and be able to share my story and hopefully get to inspire others on their journey.
Jennifer: Thanks for being here. Do you want to share, um, any, um, you mentioned your, you know, [00:56:00] where can people find Ascend or any other interesting things you might be wanting people to take a look at?
Ayan: Um, yeah, if you're listening, if you're listening to this episode and you're like, Ooh, I think UX or tech might be interesting. Feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. That's always a great Avenue. Um, I think ascend UX podcast, if you'd like to learn a bit more and get geek and geek out in the realm of UX, that's also a, an Avenue to do that too.
So it's a S C E N D UX, uh, podcast and yeah, feel free to reach out if you want to talk about anything, design entrepreneurship, or just. I like to geek out. So I like to learn about everything. So anything I like to read, I like podcasts. I just, I just like to learn. So. [00:57:00]