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Orthodox Christian Parenting, hosted by Faithtree Resources Executive Director (and mom of four!) Michelle Moujaes, is a weekly podcast for parents and grandparents navigating the holy struggle of raising kids in the Orthodox Faith. Each episode offers honesty, encouragement, and practical wisdom from the Church—creating space to exhale, freedom from the pressure to be perfect, and openness to grow as you raise children who are deepening their knowledge and love of Christ.
Talking at our kids is easy, but it doesn't always reach their hearts. In this episode of Orthodox Christian Parenting, we dive into what it takes to move from surface level conversations to true deep heart to heart connection. Discover how this kind of communication not only helps your children feel profoundly known and loved, but it also opens their hearts to encounter Christ and to build an inner life that will carry them through every season of their lives. Welcome to Orthodox Christian Parenting, where we bring timeless wisdom into the everyday chaos of raising kids. I'm Michelle Mujaias, and I'm so glad that you're here.
Michelle Moujaes:Now let's be honest. Parenting is noisy and active. I mean, there's really no other way to say it. Between homework and chores and so many activities and meltdowns and mom, watch this for the hundredth time, it can feel almost impossible to have real conversations with our children. And regardless if your kids are seven or 17, it's the same.
Michelle Moujaes:Maybe we find ourselves talking at them, or maybe they're only half listening as they scroll. But all too often before we know it, the opportunity to have real moments with our children can pass. But what if communication could be more than just words flying back and forth? Or just swapping info on the day? Or us just preaching at our kids, which I know I do all too often?
Michelle Moujaes:What if it could instead actually open the door to deep connection where our children feel truly seen and profoundly loved and safe enough to let us into their world? Well, that's what today's conversation is all about. Learning to communicate heart to heart. Because when we do, our children don't just learn to listen. They actually begin to discover what the church calls their inner life, which is the very place where they can encounter Christ and grow into the fullness of life in the church.
Michelle Moujaes:And to walk with us on this conversation is one of my absolute favorites. I met him over a decade ago when we worked together on Faith Tree's very first offering called the Lionheart Sessions. And I can promise you, he's not only brilliant, he's hilarious. He makes learning about the faith super fun. He is the one, the only George Papa George.
Michelle Moujaes:George is a licensed marriage and family therapist with more than thirty five years of experience working with young people and families in his thriving Pleasanton, California practice. He also serves as a professor of family therapy in the graduate program of counseling psychology at Santa Clara University. And as if that's not all enough, George also directs the family wellness ministry for the Metropolis Of San Francisco in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. And there, George and his team provide education and training and family wellness and mental health, which really advances the healing mission of the church. Many of our young people even know him through his involvement for so long with the Crossroad Institute.
Michelle Moujaes:But whether you know him or not, I can't wait for us to learn from him together because I can promise you, you're gonna love him as much as I do. Welcome, George.
George Papageorge:Wow. That was a great intro. Thank you very much.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. I love it. I could brag on you all day long. Well, I'm excited because what we're talking about today is something that a lot of parents in the orthodox world have told us is really important to them. And we know it's important, but we don't always necessarily know how to do that, and that's connection.
Michelle Moujaes:You know, I know, even with my own four kids, staying connected with them in the busy season of parenting can be kinda hard. So I'm excited to learn from one of the masters because you know a lot about connection. And in your clinical practice, I know that you are really helpful for so many people helping them understand how to connect. So let's just go, like, talk to us about connection and talk to us about what we as parents can do to really have those heart to heart connections that you talk about so often.
George Papageorge:Absolutely. You know, I really like the fact that we could just start with that word connection. It gets us on the right track. And really, for all parents listening, I wouldn't mind that being almost like an organizing principle of the idea of is connecting going on, or what do we think connecting is? How do we understand that in every conversation?
George Papageorge:How do we understand that in the life of our family? A guy named doctor John Gottman, well known in his actually marriage research from the University of Washington. Actually, the one guy in the country that is known for scientific studies on marriage. Why scientific studies on marriage? Because he studied the same couples for twenty five years and came up with all these longitudinal studies on what's true about thriving couples and couples that are hurting.
George Papageorge:And then when I saw he did research on young people and parenting Mhmm. I looked jumped right into his research. From all the research, he says all parents, all of us parents fall into one of two broad categories. Right then I stopped. I thought one of two broad categories.
George Papageorge:I got a little paranoid. What categories are they?
Michelle Moujaes:Which one am in?
George Papageorge:Whatchamac I thought of Matthew 25, the sheep and the goats. Lord, I hope I'm in the right category. Please. Please. And so he says, one of two broad categories, those who guide their children in the world of emotion and those who don't.
George Papageorge:Oh. So right there, pause. Right? So when we think about this idea of connecting, we might begin to put a little emphasis on, am I tuning in to the emotional life of my child? What he calls EQ or emotional intelligence.
George Papageorge:This idea of how do I foster and cultivate emotional connection and this idea of emotional intelligence as I see the life of my child being played out day to day.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Wait. I have to say that back because I'm not the sharpest, tack in the box. So let me say it. So you're saying that connection is paying attention to the emotional life of your child.
Michelle Moujaes:So that's what breeds connection, and parents either do or they don't.
George Papageorge:Right. From from his standpoint, parents get so busy and get so concerned about the direction of their child. Sometimes they're looking at all the exterior parts of the child's life
Michelle Moujaes:K.
George Papageorge:And forgetting about the inner life that you spoke of already. So the idea of can I tune in? Can I track? Can I connect with what's going on emotionally? And can I seek to understand what's going on as my child seeks to say anything?
George Papageorge:Am I looking at that in way of saying, what does that mean emotionally as I understand my child?
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. So let's talk. When I think about connection or I think about my kids, it's, you know, that they are known Mhmm. And that they know that they are loved. That's what I think of with connection.
Michelle Moujaes:So is that fair?
George Papageorge:That's perfect. And it's right on target there because as we think about them being known, it means that we have to be careful that we haven't scripted that for them already Oh. Because that comes in the form of expectations. And so sometimes we love our children so much, we sort of unknowingly set up these expectations, and they don't meet our expectation, then we almost redirect it toward what we wanna hear and say and hear from them. And so we think about being known.
George Papageorge:It would be a communication that does tune in to understanding what they're saying. Now keep in mind, the deepest emotions of a child
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:Will come out in the most often erratic and volatile ways.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:So if you see a little bit of attitude or reaction, sometimes even they call it acting out, that's actually a clinical term. Very often, we think it's a figure of speech. My kid's just acting out, and we think of it just misbehavior of them being spoiled. Acting out is a clinical term because cognitively, they don't have all of the tools to describe everything of what they're feeling. And it's to be expected that deep emotions in a child come out of their behavior.
George Papageorge:And in fact, their misbehavior.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The more
George Papageorge:that it's misbehavior, typically, it's a sign there's a deeper emotion.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:But they're not the only ones having deep emotions. When they're sharing their deep emotion coming out in misbehavior
Michelle Moujaes:And how you're going
George Papageorge:with Guess what happens. Right? Yeah. And so that starts triggering what's going on inside of us.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
George Papageorge:The number one emotion among the most caring parents is fear.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, for sure.
George Papageorge:Right? So we're carrying that fear. We see the misbehavior, and all of a sudden, we just jump on the behavior, try to correct it, all the while missing the EQ, the emotional intelligence, looking for what's going on in the life of the child. What's in the emotion of what the child is saying or doing? And how can I better understand what's going on for them at that moment in their emotional life?
Michelle Moujaes:I have a thousand questions about what you just said. The first thing let me just I'm gonna just riff on everything that came to my mind. Number one is, oh my gosh. I do that. Sorry to my four kids.
Michelle Moujaes:Number two is, of course, I'm scared because I it's it's not I can't control it. So if they're acting out also, if like, let's say they're acting out in church or they're acting out in college or wherever they are, what if people know? And then another thing, sorry, know I'm vomiting all of it on you, but let's go. Yep. What's the alternative?
Michelle Moujaes:Right. If I can't control it, how do I know if it is safe and if I shouldn't be afraid? Right? Especially in today's world, there's so many, like, really extreme things happening with kids.
George Papageorge:Absolutely. It to have fear is to be expected and understood. And and really in our modern era, we might even have the impression already that it seems like there's more to be afraid of, and that's very realistic.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah.
George Papageorge:Yeah. However, this is where our emotional life comes into play. Okay. Am I driven by fear? Okay.
George Papageorge:Even the church fathers say, acquire a spirit of peace. Yeah. Thousands around you'll be saved or will be healed. I think of that quote by Saint Sarafemosarov as a great quote for parenting.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Yeah. That makes
George Papageorge:spirit of peace. So in what way can I stay in peace, stay centered, stay connected to the Lord, stay connected to myself, know what I'm even feeling as I'm encountering that type of situation that starts triggering me?
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
George Papageorge:Now I'd like to also say we absolutely leave room in our parenting job for correction and guidance.
Michelle Moujaes:But I'd
George Papageorge:say this very simply, connect before correct.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, that's so good. Connect before correct.
George Papageorge:Absolutely. We see this true for any coach, any parent, any training session, any, situation where you wanna have very positive influence, you have to have connection with who you're working with. Here, we're talking about parenting. In what way can I maintain connection while these very real and sometimes vulnerable emotions are going on?
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. So give me a practical, like, what does that look like? Your kid does some wild thing, throws a tantrum, hits their sibling, something.
George Papageorge:Well, I like to use the metaphor of an emotional stethoscope. Oh. And by the way, you could carry it with you at all times because they're invisible. Your child will not know that you're carrying it with you at all times. The idea of the stethoscope, I've never met a doctor yet who puts a stethoscope to my mouth.
George Papageorge:I've never had them as I'm rattling on at everything I think and half of what I'm talking about, the doctor knows I don't know what I'm talking about.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
George Papageorge:And yet they never take it so literally that they put it to my mouth. While I'm rattling away with everything that's on my mind, they do what a doctor does. He has the healing touch where they put the stethoscope where it belongs, and that's on the heartbeat.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it.
George Papageorge:So as my child, to your question, is showing up in all those sideways sorts of ways and they have attitudes that start triggering us. Remember the stethoscope. We're tuning into the heartbeat. Now what's that? We're listening for emotional content.
George Papageorge:So they may say, hate science. I think school's lame, and I think I should just be hanging out with my friends all day. We wanna give our opinion and and jump in and start correcting them. But instead, we might use the stethoscope to say, it sounds like school's not that inspiring right now. Now notice what I do right now.
George Papageorge:Punctuation, period, Not comma. Our tendency is Mhmm. Comma. Oh my gosh. You know you're never gonna make it in life if have an attitude like that.
George Papageorge:And so we back it up. Now just notice even the heart rate of what I'm saying. Hey, sweetie. It sounds like school's not inspiring you right now. Period.
George Papageorge:Breathe is our chance to breathe. K. Catch our breath. And we see where they wanna go with that. Mhmm.
George Papageorge:But in that moment, they were heard for something they said. I let them feel connected with on where they're coming from rather than giving them a commentary of what I think about what they said.
Michelle Moujaes:Ah, I love that. Because then you get them. Right? It's so important for our children to feel like, okay, mom or dad gets me. They understand me.
George Papageorge:And keep in mind, when we're talking about fear driven parenting, we run ahead anyway. And so we would've just zoomed over whatever they were trying to say. We would've missed the message in that imperfect way they delivered it. We would've missed what they were trying to say. Remember, the heartbeat.
George Papageorge:We would've missed what's actually going on inside of them because we didn't like the way it sounded and we started fearing what it's gonna possibly turn into.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. So let me press in this for a second. I know, again, the realities of the world we live in now are little different than when I think our parents were raising us, and things can go south. And there are dangers that seem a little bit more immediate and extreme. Where can we lean into faith over that fear?
Michelle Moujaes:Because I know for my children, if they're like, school's not inspiring right now or however it came out, I'd be like, oh my gosh. They're not gonna go to college. That's it.
George Papageorge:Right. Well, this brings up absolutely the most important point of parenting. Okay? Me put it this way. The Lord blesses us when we get married because it's his way of getting at all our unhealed parts.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:And so it's in the life of marriage where all our unhealed parts show up.
Michelle Moujaes:Yep.
George Papageorge:We tend to be tempted to think it's the unhealed part of our partner, but
Michelle Moujaes:it's really in us. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, babe.
George Papageorge:And so if that's not enough, he blesses us with children. And in the process of parenting, it will reveal their unhealed parts. So to your question, it's not uncommon that our fears are kinda like a runaway train.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
George Papageorge:We're not deluding ourself to think that it's some perfect world, my kid's safe at every turn. It's very realistic to have the fears. It's something different to be fear driven. Now keep in mind, what we learn what we know in research is fear turns to control. So not only will my fear possibly not tune into the emotional life of the child and find out EQ, emotional intelligence, tune into what they mean by what they just said, but also we get tempted to convert that fear into control.
George Papageorge:And so once we get enough triggering going on in our fear, we take over. And then that's when our kids tune out. We take over, they tune out.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. I think it's so painful for parents to see something hard or painful happen to their children. And I think if I can speak for all Orthodox Christian parents, it can be so painful that we would try and avoid that at any cost.
George Papageorge:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:You know, and I think that one of the things that I am constantly thinking through is, like, what does it look like for my kids to struggle? And that's okay. Yeah. In the embrace of our home, in the embrace of our, you know, love and protection. And what happens if it isn't good?
Michelle Moujaes:Like, happens if something really does go south? So talk to me about that. How do we kind of acknowledge the reality and then have enough faith to not be fear driven?
George Papageorge:Well, let's take a look at a couple things. One is there was an article just a number of years ago on what they call helicopter parenting. And what came out of this article was it came out at a time where the children who were old enough to go to college just went off to college in the generation of helicopter parents.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
George Papageorge:And so it was the time where they were on their own. The helicopter parent wasn't hovering while they're away at college, and it was the highest freshman dropout rate that year. So we see that this fear driven approach is well intended, but it hovers so much to avoid any possible thing going wrong Yeah. That it leads to the underdevelopment of the autonomy and the sort of development of life skills in the child. Mhmm.
George Papageorge:And so we have to kind of reframe this thing. Some of the best ways I'm gonna help my child is to actually let my child struggle when they face a struggle. Now it doesn't mean we're not with them. In fact, we wanna be with them. We're just not gonna fix them or control them.
George Papageorge:So in the research of family therapy, they say there's two life forces present in every family.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:The idea being that the healthy family has a balance of these two things. Now what are the two things? Connectedness or togetherness and autonomy. Okay? So now think about that.
George Papageorge:And this can be this is true from day one. It just gonna take on a different form through all the different stages of our child's life. But keep in mind then the idea is absolutely when we wanna do what it takes to cultivate connection with our child at all the ages, but in what way do we leave room for their autonomy? So in the research of family therapy, what it indicates is there's two life forces in every family.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:And these two life forces for to be a healthy family will have a balance between these two. Number one would be connectedness or togetherness. The other is autonomy. This idea that we look for a balance between, hey, we wanna be connected as a family, but we gotta give some breathing space. How is it that I let my child have autonomy?
George Papageorge:This is what gets we were speaking of a moment ago about if we're hovering too much, they won't have enough autonomy. Research would show, in fact, that when they don't have enough autonomy, they don't develop. And so then they either grow dependent, which is the failure to launch situation that we're seeing arise in today, but also that they don't get connected to themselves. It's great to be connected to family. But this idea of being an authentic person is knowing how to be connected to yourself.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
George Papageorge:I have my own view, my own opinion. And if I go sideways a little bit, that my parents aren't gonna just freak out to get me in line, but they're getting a sense of where I'm coming from and what something means for me. And this is where for fear driven, we kind of snuff it out. Now if we have some fears, but we're regulating our own emotions, we tend to the emotion within us because guess what? We have to be connected to ourselves
Michelle Moujaes:As parents. As parents Okay.
George Papageorge:In order to properly connect with our child. That's a whole other subject we can get to in its own little podcast is what's it mean to be connected to yourself. But simply to say that idea of I know what my heart rate is telling me right now. I'm connected to my body. I'm connected to my thoughts.
George Papageorge:I'm connected to my own inner life. I'm connected to if I can discern if I'm triggered or not. That connection with self gives us some insight and clue on when to regulate our own emotions so that we're available to hear the emotions of our child.
Michelle Moujaes:So what about parents that don't do that so well? I mean, I'm just thinking about all of the conversations I've had with my children and how often maybe it's been more focused on behavior or on the output as opposed to what are they actually I mean, it could be on any number of things. What sports they wanna play? What career they wanna pursue? If certain behaviors are in alignment with what we know to be true in the life of the church and that, you know, how do you navigate that if you haven't done that or you aren't as connected to your own inner life?
George Papageorge:Well, this raises such a fundamental and important question.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
George Papageorge:We're really called to be connected to our inner life.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
George Papageorge:The same we're we're called to be connected to God and be connected to the love of Christ. We are connected to be we are meant to be connected to our own inner life. K. It's kinda like flying blind if we're not connected to our own inner life. Now keep in mind, the healthy emotional life of the child is modeled Mhmm.
George Papageorge:By the healthy emotional life of the parent.
Michelle Moujaes:So get practical. What does a healthy emotional life look like? Like, give me some, like, receipts, output. If I know that they're healthy, what does it look like?
George Papageorge:So for ourselves, the idea of having a healthy emotional life is that we would have the opportunity to share with our child when we're wrong.
Michelle Moujaes:K. Great.
George Papageorge:So what often happens in life of the parent is they think it's a choice between being a person or being in the role, the role of parent, the role of authority. And I would say it this way, very often we get that backwards and we have the role takeover And we use it as shield to to stay away from our own vulnerable emotions. And we think the role can take over and we'll just straighten out our kids all along the way and have successful kids.
Michelle Moujaes:So you're talking like showing repentance or asking forgiveness or if I don't know something, I say it.
George Papageorge:Exactly. Okay. And also that we would model just our own our own sense of, when we're at all feeling something. Mhmm. You know, if we say, you know, I feel like you're on the wrong track, that's not a feeling.
George Papageorge:That's my opinion.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:A feeling would be, gosh, I'm realizing some fears coming up for me when you described what you did about such and such. And we actually own our own emotional life. We're modeling for them that the inner life is alive and well, not perfect, and doesn't mean without struggle. And in fact, that's what proves a healthy inner life is it's has self honesty. Even Socrates said, know thyself.
George Papageorge:The church fathers talk about that the path in knowing God is honesty about knowing ourselves.
Michelle Moujaes:I like it because I feel like if you were to go to your kids and say, I have some fear around this. It's so not blame y and so not judgy that they actually might be able to receive it because they're saying, wait. Why do you have fear? I trust you, your mom, or your dad, and I wanna hear your opinions. Well, I'm sensing these things might be a concern.
Michelle Moujaes:Or but you know what a lot of us do as parents, I would say especially when our kids are younger is be careful. You're gonna fall down. You're gonna break your head or your face is gonna stick that way or whatever the things are that we tell our kids.
George Papageorge:Right. Right. No. You just you just got to the the point we were getting at earlier, which is this idea of heart to heart. Mhmm.
George Papageorge:And what you just said was an example of them hearing from your heart. Yeah. And so when we think about that, again, stethoscope, we need to tune in, right, to our own emotion to share, hey, humbly, this is what's going on for me. Otherwise, if we don't do that, we are basically in the business of behavior modification and there's no connection in that. Has to be heart to heart.
George Papageorge:And really, again, it allows a child to see that the caring comes from the vulnerable emotion within us. It's hard to detect caring when we're feeling controlled.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, it's hard to really detect caring if we're feeling controlled. I like that. So is there ever a place to say, that's a bad idea, not safe, not doing it?
George Papageorge:Absolutely. But back to connect before correct.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:And so we wanna find out, do we fully understand? Have we repeated back what we think we're hearing?
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
George Papageorge:We want them to comment on our perception of what they're saying. Because we don't wanna take over once we hear that wrong idea that we think they have, then we take over and we start railroading it into some direction that soothes our nerves rather than them feeling understood. Very often and keep in mind too, not all conversations have to have a beginning and end in that particular conversation. Yeah. To be, wow, I think I'm understanding this.
George Papageorge:Let's get back to that. No pressure. Let's have an ongoing conversation about things. But when we wanna guide something, absolutely we'd say, because then they almost trust our emotional life when we say, oh, I feel strongly about this. Let me run it past you.
George Papageorge:Yeah, yeah. Especially when I hear you say that, that really concerns me. I'd love to share a concern if I could. Mhmm. That has a a feeling of, can I share it from my heart?
George Papageorge:But prior to our sharing, which is that that's when we become the talker, did we do our due diligence on being the listener? Mhmm. And the goal of listening is not always agreement. The goal of listening is to feel understood.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. I actually feel like some of the best ministry in the church, it looks just a lot like listening, but it's not something that we do, often in our culture. So give us some practical takeaways on listening. How can you know if you're rocking it as a listener?
George Papageorge:Right. It's a great question. Even the question invites us to self awareness. Okay. So I I like us to all dwell on the question.
George Papageorge:Like, how do I know I'm a listener?
Michelle Moujaes:You know,
George Papageorge:Saint Isaac of Syria says, to see yourself as you really are is a miracle greater than raising the dead. So we're prone toward a bit of self delusion. We're we're we're we're prone towards seeing ourselves in the best light and not really seeing some of the sides that we really need to look at. So I would say that, to to get a a feel for if we're a good listener or not, I I would say stay in tune with phrases like, is there anything more you wanna say?
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm. Okay.
George Papageorge:Keep the skill of summarizing to ensure accuracy. What are you saying is x because of y.
Michelle Moujaes:And that's really huge because there are times with my children where I feel like I know exactly what they're trying to say, but when we have just a moment to say, wait, is this no. That's not what I'm saying
George Papageorge:at all.
Michelle Moujaes:Exactly. Right?
George Papageorge:And going to the trouble of checking with them, they feel respected. Yep. And back to what you were saying earlier, they feel seen, they feel valued. Because all the while, the ability for us to hear where our child is coming from gives them a kind of kinda fills their tank that they're a somebody. They're they're a person.
George Papageorge:They're to be respected. Mhmm. They have thoughts and feelings that are worth something. Guess what? Self esteem starts going up.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
George Papageorge:And their sense of being connected themselves goes up when we tune in to where they're coming from. And we we with the skill of summarizing in that listening skill, we let them know that what they think and feel is important to us.
Michelle Moujaes:One of the things that comes to mind when you say that is in the eyes of God, in the eyes of church, we all have equal worth. Mhmm. But we don't all have equal roles. And I think the rub for a lot of parents comes in, there is a bit of a hierarchy in the family life. Right?
Michelle Moujaes:And so how can we honor the equal worth of each of us, but at the same time, like, I'm gonna call it, you're not doing that. No, you're not. Yes. You know, like, I have a responsibility as your protector and provider. Absolutely.
Michelle Moujaes:What does that look like?
George Papageorge:Well, let's say a couple things on that. One would be that if you're not pulling the control statement every other day, when you do feel strongly enough to say, hey, this ain't happening today, they're gonna hear it.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:And they haven't tuned you out the 500 times you've said it.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:So we really want a good leader doesn't come across controlling.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
George Papageorge:Really? Right? So when we look at the time that we do feel called to step in and the situation really calls for it, absolutely, be empowered to step in.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
George Papageorge:But we could look at how Jesus interacts with people in the gospels. Even John chapter eight, the woman caught in adultery, and all the ones who had the role of authority were ready to take care of business and stone her to death. And, okay, I I follow the rules of my role. And yet Jesus does something. He goes and sits next to her, spends time with her.
George Papageorge:Now I think that's the connect before correct. Mhmm. Because later he said, go and sin no more. Mhmm. But he spent time connecting.
George Papageorge:So absolutely, we do step in and and have some God given authority. God given authority is not the same as a controlling personality.
Michelle Moujaes:Got it.
George Papageorge:And we really wanna know the difference.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right. Yeah. So, okay. Now what do we tell parents? Because one of the things we did, a massive survey of parents across the Orthodox world in this country, all jurisdictions, and we had some great response.
Michelle Moujaes:But one of the trends that we saw was that a lot of parents who do really want to support good behavior, just go with that. But with the outcome that seems like it's in alignment with the church's teachings, a lot of them expressed to us that it is a struggle to even get our own stuff together. Right? Like what happens when my kid brings shame to our cultural understanding of what is good or departs from the church or does things like how do we connect in such a way that it's still leading them towards? Does that make sense?
George Papageorge:Yeah. Absolutely. Did I
Michelle Moujaes:articulate that okay?
George Papageorge:Well, I mean, I would say the parable of the prodigal son
Michelle Moujaes:is So you give them space to kinda wander?
George Papageorge:I think that now we all define space differently. We all define wander differently. Okay. And we have to ask the Holy Spirit to help us Good. In discerning that.
Michelle Moujaes:Love that.
George Papageorge:Okay? All I'm saying though is the controlling parent will step in too early and the laissez faire parent will wait too long.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh, wait. Let's say that back. So the controlling parent will step in too early. A laissez faire parent will wait too long.
George Papageorge:And by the way, both those styles are fear driven.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes. I would believe that.
George Papageorge:Right? And so we are looking for that discernment, but it's such it's such a relational question that you're asking. Yeah. I've gotta know my child enough. This is where the EQ, emotional intelligence come into play.
George Papageorge:Do I know how to pick up the cues of of eye contact and leaning in and a sense of like, oh, sweetie, this is what I'm hearing. This is what's on my heart. And being able to have kind of interpersonal skills that even in their biggest struggle, we're able to still cultivate that you're loved for who you are. Yeah. And that doesn't mean we turn a blind eye to something that's very concerning, but we do wanna know what it means to disconnect from people.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:We don't want emotional cutoff. We don't want shame to come into, being the primary emotion even though there might be it may be filling the room with all the all the triggers going on within us if we're, you know, reacting and and having deep feelings about our child's behavior. Nonetheless, we're still called to stay connected. Now that can come in a variety of ways, but, again, this is where I want this to be incredibly thoughtful parenting. And it gets more thoughtful the more we get into the depth of our own inner life, this understanding of, wow, a lot is coming up for me.
George Papageorge:Is what's gonna come up for me empower me to stay connected or disable me from staying connected?
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. Okay. So I'm gonna drill even further on this question because the number one question we got from parents in this survey was, I'm so afraid that my kids aren't going to stay connected in the church. Or sometimes it took the form of I'm afraid they're not gonna marry within the church. I'm afraid it will not remain important to them.
Michelle Moujaes:And so my gut says that what you do to stay connected and kind of step into that role of leadership is different at seven than it is at 17. But how can parents, especially if we don't know what we're doing, we've never parented a 17 year old or whatever the, you know, scenario is, how can we walk with them, staying connected with them when the stakes are so high? And at what point do you just say, you know what? I can't make every choice for you.
George Papageorge:Right.
Michelle Moujaes:What's that look like?
George Papageorge:Well, yes, the stakes are high, but we wanna be careful. The premise of sports psychology is when we when we focus on the outcome too much, we make messes with our game. You know, the idea of the athlete being in his head or heart. Yeah. The athlete that's in their heart is the one connected to the present moment.
George Papageorge:The athlete gets in their head is the one worried about outcomes.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:And sometimes so much so, and we know it in sports psychology, that a very, very talented athlete loses all their superpowers. Yeah. When they start worrying about what's gonna happen
Michelle Moujaes:The outcome.
George Papageorge:In the future. So we do wanna be aware That's of good.
Michelle Moujaes:Like that.
George Papageorge:We wanna be aware of that. So really responding to the fear around our kids leaving the church and or will they have that as part of their lives and their futures? I would just take us to the present moment to say in what way is our home the the little church?
Michelle Moujaes:I love that.
George Papageorge:Right? Because the fathers teach us that the the home is the little church.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
George Papageorge:And how does that little church function? Well, if we understand the church and the beauty of the church, it would be where our children see that the life in Christ is something that is personally important to mom and
Michelle Moujaes:dad. Mhmm.
George Papageorge:And that when we see dad or mom praying, they're praying authentically about something within themselves that they're asking God for help and for mercy. That there'd be a way in which the Orthodox family isn't a museum, but it's a hospital where the incoming are always welcome. This idea, are we modeling an authentic faith that is about honesty and about injury within and how we turn to the Lord to help us in those times.
Michelle Moujaes:Love
George Papageorge:When that gets modeled, our kids would absolutely see the value. Why would I ever leave connection to where healing takes place?
Michelle Moujaes:So what does it look like if we had a really super connected kid? How would we know that? What does that look like?
George Papageorge:I would say let me start with a super connected family
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:Would be one that has a sense of humor.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:A super connected family would in fact appreciate the balance between connectedness and autonomy.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay.
George Papageorge:A super connected family would be when deep feelings come out, it doesn't just turn into reactions depending on how that shows up in the personalities of the family.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay. Say more about that.
George Papageorge:Okay. So even in recovery of the 12 step, it says principle over personality.
Michelle Moujaes:Principle over personality.
George Papageorge:So there's certain principles like we wanna hear everybody's view on things and we'd like everybody to feel heard and we have that principle versus, well, we got this personality in our family and boy
Michelle Moujaes:You're a handful.
George Papageorge:I don't wanna hear it. Yeah. Or a parent when they get emotional, all bets are off and everybody goes to their own room. Or when another parent gets loud, then we all know we can't say what we really feel. See, that's when personalities take over.
Michelle Moujaes:Got it.
George Papageorge:When there's principles, then we really look for a a Christ centered principle, which is we value each other, and we wanna hear from each other. And that we have a sense that what's going on, as we said earlier, in the inner life of everyone is a priority.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Great.
George Papageorge:Right? And so the connected child then start to show a kind of personality that appreciates the balance of sense of humor, a time for prayer, a time for focusing in on the spiritual life, and then a time to focus in on time with friends. Like, the appreciation of the balanced life, I think, is how we get the connected child.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that. I like the idea that my kids feel safe to come and tell my husband and I things and that we're the frontline of defense for If they need support, it feels that that's a win, I think.
George Papageorge:Doesn't it speak for itself that way, right? Yeah. And they even have studies in, like functional families versus dysfunctional families. Yeah. They say the dysfunctional family has unwritten rule of don't talk, don't trust, don't feel.
George Papageorge:So just clamp it down and behave.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah, interesting.
George Papageorge:And so this this idea of us being healthy families, we get to breathe, we get to feel, we get to exhale. And again, in all the different stages of a child's life, they have so much going on in their inner life. We could talk some other time about just the the, inner world of what I call from playground to battleground. The mind of the child earlier than ever starts being a battleground with self doubt, and they sort of turn on themselves. Now we can't always see that visually.
George Papageorge:Right? But then when we jump on with all kinds of correction and not sensitive to the already possibly unkind of themselves, then it could be overwhelming. And then we start seeing symptoms in children.
Michelle Moujaes:Interesting. But it makes so much sense. Especially now because we put devices in their hand and the whole world is at their disposal to tell them that they're not good enough.
George Papageorge:Exactly. So very often, if you will, the virus is sort of the not good enough bug they get bit by. Yeah. Yeah. And then social media is the super spreader.
George Papageorge:Just multiplies that like crazy.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah. Totally agree. Tell us practical steps that parents can take in the busyness of day everyday life to kind of really cultivate that connection.
George Papageorge:I'd love to talk a little bit about communication killers and communication cultivators if Yes. I Yeah. So, I would say a common honestly, it makes me laugh because we're so prone to it. But a common communication killer is what I call lecture mentality.
Michelle Moujaes:Lecture mentality.
George Papageorge:Lecture mentality is based on the premise, the longer I talk, the more they will listen.
Michelle Moujaes:I'm so guilty of that.
George Papageorge:K. Wait. Say more. Killer It's it's the killer of many a family meeting. Okay?
George Papageorge:And so the idea is when we get an lecture mentality, it is proof that we're in fear. It is proof that we're transitioning into control.
Michelle Moujaes:Did we get it in there enough? Right.
George Papageorge:And so we're believing that and this is what's ironic and kind of dangerous in a way. The most important messages mean the most to us, but sometimes trigger all of this kind of approach. And now it's getting wasted because they're four or five seconds into lecture mentality and they're not gonna hear anything. And if they do, they don't hear the message. They read the demeanor and the demeanor coming alongside.
George Papageorge:Like, a paramedic is the medic that comes alongside.
Michelle Moujaes:K.
George Papageorge:Parakaleo is the one who's called alongside. And that's where the holy spirit is getting introduced by Jesus when he says, I'm gonna leave you guys, but I'm gonna but there's a comforter, a counselor, a paraclete coming who's gonna come alongside you and be with you and in you. So I love just the imagery of coming alongside. And so the lecture may help.
Michelle Moujaes:Age, George?
George Papageorge:Yes. Absolutely at any age. Absolutely. At any at every age. And I would say, you know, free marital advice, absolutely recommended for marriage as well.
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
George Papageorge:And so and keep in mind, this is where our own self awareness comes into play. Often, we have some success when our children are in single digits. Okay? Connecting makes sense to us in many ways.
Michelle Moujaes:Mhmm.
George Papageorge:Once they hit double digits, 10, 11, 12, then very often we start saying, oh, it's the adolescent age that disconnects us. What I find is that we actually start bumping into more of our issues the more autonomous they get. So this and then it kicks us into communication killers, which would be, the first of, this lecture mentality. Secondly, I would say what I call make up for lost time mentality. And that is all the talks I haven't had with my child, and now I'm realizing I should have had with
Michelle Moujaes:my child. That's a big piece of it is, like, did we do our job? Are they ready? Are they okay to And be
George Papageorge:so to do the make it up for lost time mentality, it would be, I'm gonna have all the talks we didn't have in a one hour talk an hour Right now. An hour before the prom. Verbal comments. Right. Right.
Michelle Moujaes:That's right.
George Papageorge:Okay. So and then the other I would say, and this is very common, understandable, but common and problematic, is problem centered communication. And that is the talks I do have when I do speak up. It's around crisis correction or, criticism. And so we wanna be aware of the fact of what's the ratio of positive to negative when I talk to my child.
Michelle Moujaes:Is there a number?
George Papageorge:Well, back to doctor John Gottman in his, research on marriage, he says five to one, five positive for everyone negative. And so I snag that in a second, apply it to parenting that much more and say that, is there a way? And this is the connection before correction anyway, and that is, do I sort of invest in the way in which I connect with my child and Yeah. Notice the beautiful things about them? Yeah.
George Papageorge:So that when the correction comes in, it's like, oh, catches their attention. They're listening rather
Michelle Moujaes:than That's right.
George Papageorge:Feeling like it's a tidal wave every time.
Michelle Moujaes:My mom used to say eight to one. She used to tell us growing up that for every negative comment, there has to be eight positive comments or else people will not feel good.
George Papageorge:Oh, that's good. Yeah. Wise. Wise. Wise.
Michelle Moujaes:There you go. Yeah. Well, very, interesting. Alright. So this question, we got a couple questions.
Michelle Moujaes:Can I throw them your way And from our this is one that came from Amy, and she is a mother of two? And it says, how can we repair communication when it's been broken? Like, when we've raised our voice or brushed off our kids or missed the chance to listen well?
George Papageorge:Right. Good question. Amy brings up a great question. Potentially, even where we're aware of where we've gotten it wrong. I mean, scriptures do say love covers a multititicens.
George Papageorge:Yes. So we do need to be, you know, thankful for the grace that's given and the the power of love. I would say the present moment is what Amy and you and I are all looking for, and that is the beautiful thing that could happen in the present moment does a lot of repair. And in fact, even as our children move toward young adulthood, they will give us commentary on the parenting mistakes we've made. Yeah.
George Papageorge:Right?
Michelle Moujaes:Yeah.
George Papageorge:Right? And yet the beauty is cognitively, they're in a pretty good place to appreciate kind of a authentic, humble, here, I'm I'm really trying to be myself as I communicate with you. That kind of authenticity does a lot of repair.
Michelle Moujaes:Nice. Is there ever a point where it's too late to have good communication with your kids?
George Papageorge:Well, never too late to have good communication. So, you know, it's it's it's like someone who who's eaten junk food all their life. Is it ever too late to to have good nutrition? It's never too late. Now certain things may be there may be damage to work with, but it's never so I'd say, again, present moment, it's never too late to do the next right thing and to offer something beautiful and available.
George Papageorge:And keep in mind, just like we'd say, it's never too late to work on our own issues. It's never too late to get more healing from the Lord. So as we do that, life of the family got a lot of facets, life of the family where different people have different injuries for different reasons, with different personalities. And the way in which we bring health to that and leave space for people to be people, really allows a lot of healing to happen.
Michelle Moujaes:Okay, one more question. We only have two minutes left. So this question comes to us from Alexi who wrote in, I have no idea how to talk to my kids. I don't even understand what they talk about. 67 and 41 and skiviti.
Michelle Moujaes:Oh my gosh. My kids use all those words. I don't even know what they mean. What in the world can I do to stay current and relevant? It's like they speak a foreign language.
George Papageorge:Well, gosh, Alexi.
Michelle Moujaes:You know? But I totally hear terminology changes, the things that we need to know about changes.
George Papageorge:I think all the more the EQ comes in,
Michelle Moujaes:and that
George Papageorge:is there is such a thing as having insight on, like, reading our child and giving a sense of whatever they just said, is it something they're delighted about? Is it something they're stressed about? Is there something that they are complaining about? Let me let me have a sense of tuning into where they're coming from.
Michelle Moujaes:I like that.
George Papageorge:I can't be an expert in all of youth culture, but I wanna be an expert in tuning into the heart of my child.
Michelle Moujaes:Alright. In our last few minutes, Georgia, any last thoughts? Anything that you'd wanna share with our audience about connection?
George Papageorge:I mean, certainly what we don't wanna miss on connection is our connection to the Lord and and, I mean, such a holistic life we live. We have our bodies, we have our minds, We have our hearts, and we have our spiritual life. And the way in which we could have a proper understanding of God himself because sometimes we take some of our unhealed parts. We project it on as if there's an angry God or I'm not good enough, any of that. So I would just encourage all of us in all of the areas of family life that we personally each would have a very vital and kind of, loving connection with the Lord.
Michelle Moujaes:I love that. And recognizing that we'll fall, but in the Christian life, we gotta get back up. And in the Christian
George Papageorge:well, in the Christian life that models that we all fall including our children. And so that that I that kind of love Yes. Back to the prodigal that that the that should be the parable of the enduring love of the father is that parable. Right? We put focus on the prodigal, but really the focus on the enduring love of of the father.
George Papageorge:And so, and also as the prodigal came to himself, he turned toward the father.
Michelle Moujaes:Yes.
George Papageorge:This is why we encourage our kids to be in tune with their emotional lives because the more authentic they are, the more honest ultimately they'll be. The more honest they'll be, the more they're gonna turn toward the father and the house of the father.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Thanks for being with us and all the good work that you do. Will you come back again?
George Papageorge:Absolutely. Love to.
Michelle Moujaes:I love it. Great. Thank you, George. Papa George. And thanks to you for listening to this week's episode of Orthodox Christian Parenting.
Michelle Moujaes:You know, every week, we're here to help you raise children who know Christ and who love him and who, God willing, will spend their whole lives trying to be like him. And hey, listen. If this episode blessed you, would you consider doing us a favor? Would you consider leaving a review or sharing it with a friend? And here's why.
Michelle Moujaes:Because when you do that, it helps more families like yours find the show. And one last thing, if you wanna go deeper, you can download this week's free discussion guide in the show notes, or you can go and download it from faithtree.org/parenting. This guide is just a free gift to you and your family and it's a great opportunity for you to think more deeply about all that we talked about with George today. And you can go through the questions with your spouse or with your friends, with a godparent, or even your community at church. You definitely want to check it out.
Michelle Moujaes:God willing, I will see you next time.