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The Debrief Podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. Author and lead pastor of Sandals Church, Matt Brown debriefs current issues shaping our culture from a spiritual perspective.
Welcome to the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. On this show, pastor Matt sits down with his friends to answer your questions about life, Jesus, and the Bible. Let's get into the episode.
Tammy Brown:Well, welcome back to another episode of the debrief podcast with Matthew Stephen Brown. And we have a lot of questions to get through today that I think are gonna be a lot of answers. So no banter from us
Tammy Brown:this time. Love the banter though.
Tammy Brown:Sorry everyone's gonna miss that. But we're gonna jump right into these because it's serious times and we have some serious questions. And thank you so much to everybody who's sending in these fantastic questions. This first question comes from Jesus in Winchester, California, so not too far from us. It says this, hi, pastor Matt.
Tammy Brown:I'm a first generation Mexican American Christian and long time listener. Thank you for that. I've been wrestling with how to respond to recent ice raids and immigration protests here in Los Angeles. I understand the importance of borders and legal systems. I'm also a taxpayer, so I understand the frustration that people feel about social programs being used by those who don't always pay into them.
Tammy Brown:But I also have undocumented family members who are good people. If there have been a legal path to if there had been a legal path to citizenship, residency, or green card, they absolutely would have taken it. But across multiple administrations from both parties, nothing has changed. And I feel torn. Am I betraying my family if it's if I support immigration law enforcement?
Tammy Brown:Or am I betraying biblical justice and compassion if I stay silent? And then how should Christians think biblically and faithfully about immigration enforcement when the system itself seems to be broken? So many people are asking this question right now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:How Let me first of all say thank you for your question. Thank you for asking it in such a polite way.
Tammy Brown:Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I've gotten some pretty negative feedback with people who've asked questions, picked on the color of my skin, the color of my eyes. And really, in the name of accusing me as being racist, they've actually been a little racist to me in some of their So I just want to say thank you for asking an honest, fair, real question in today's day and age. And it's very, very difficult. And this is what I think we need to do as Christians. We need to be able to dialogue and work through tough issues that the world has a difficult time dialoguing and working through.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so this is an issue that affects many of us in Southern California. It's not an issue that affects me personally, but many of the families in our church. Sandals Church now is almost 50% Hispanic and a lot of people don't realize that, but that's Southern California. Now that varies from campus to campus, but overall, if you add them up together, about 50%. We have a Spanish speaking church that's a part of our Sandals community and this is something that's directly impacting them and there's been people that have been afraid to come to church because of this issue.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so part of the reason, you know, I struggled with whether or not to speak out. And I think in the past, I've been more quick to speak out on political issues because I think it's important. You know, what does my pastor believe about this? What does my pastor think? And people want to know that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But here's the problem. I'm not a politician, I'm a pastor. And whenever I speak on political issues, it automatically divides. Our country is very divided in terms of almost every issue you could possibly think about, including who should be president, you know, who is president. And so the gospel is already divisive.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Like you're a sinner, you cannot save yourself. It's offensive. Like your life is not pleasing to God. You needed a sacrifice for you. And so when I speak on these political issues, man, what I found is it might appease the person who asked the question, but we just lose people constantly who quietly kind of leave, and it affects the church.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And when people leave, it affects us in a lot of ways. And so I decided not to comment on this publicly, but you asked the question, you asked it so well, I feel compelled to answer your question. So, here's what I would say is I think this is a very real issue for people directly impacted by it. So, like you said, Jesus, you have family members. Some are documented, some are not documented.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Tammy and I can't possibly imagine what that would be because we don't have that situation. And so our tendency is to look at it from a legal or non legal perspective. And I think there's a lot of people that are kind of lean towards how we see it. And so I just want to say, my heart goes out to you. I think this is an extremely difficult issue for you and your family.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And what I would say as a Christian, your job is to love and care for your family members, whether they're legal or non legal, that's your responsibility to love and care for them. And I think that that's important. It's also important to remember what you said. Societies need to have rules, we need to have borders, we need to have boundaries. This is enforced all over the world, we need to acknowledge that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so whenever there's a law that we as Christians say we're not going to adhere to, we really have to make sure that, you know, is this law something that violates what God teaches? And this is where the church is divided. Some say yes because Jesus himself was an immigrant. Others say no because that doesn't fit in that way. And so this is just a really, really tough issue.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So here's what I would say. Here's my answer. I agree with you. We need immigration laws, absolutely. A lot of people have come into our country, probably more than we were able to handle under the last administration.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So Biden opened the doors wide open, people flooded in, and let me just say this, if Tammy and I were in Honduras, if we were in Nicaragua and we had three kids, that's what I would do. Would try to get to America. America is the land of opportunity, and a lot of people hate on America. It's still the greatest place to change your life. It just is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I would try to do that, but I also understand what the Trump administration is saying is, too many people came in, we don't know who these people are, and some of these people potentially may be dangerous. Now, Trump speaks on this issue in an inflammatory way, and oftentimes seems to indicate that a majority of these people are bad people, or these are people who are criminals or whatever. And that's just kind of the way Trump talks. And so I don't want to comment on how Trump chooses to articulate himself, but some of these people are bad at And we've seen this with the rape and murder of the young woman in Georgia. What was her name?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They'll give me her name in a second, gosh.
Tammy Brown:Lake- Lake Riley?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Lake and, yeah, Lake and Riley. I should have known her name. It was just literally off the top of my tongue. And so here's, I think the Lake and Riley thing really kind of puts it in perspective, because here's why. The young man that, I think he was from Venezuela, that murdered and raped her, he had a roommate who was a female.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I don't know if this is true, but I've heard this, that they were actually having a conversation, and this female roommate was saying, what kind of guy would do this? So I don't know if that's true, you guys can look into
Tammy Brown:I've heard this too, yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, but here's the thing is, evil people oftentimes are kind to their family members, kind to their friends, and kind to the people that they need to function. Not everybody is. Some criminals are abusive and act criminally towards everyone, but sometimes we don't know who our family members are. We don't know who our friends are. We don't know what they do when they're outside of the person that we experience.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we've seen that at our own church when somebody that we think is really, really great, the attend church on a regular basis, they have a secondary life. And so we have to be careful that we assume that every person that we know and every person that we love that has come to America is a good person. We just don't always know what they do. And I think the Lake and Riley thing testifies to that is she's afraid of going out, and what she finds out is the guy who did the crime is her roommate, who was not here legally, but came here from Venezuela. And so we got to be careful in that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We got to love our families, care for our families, but all of us have challenging people in our families, and we don't know the whole story. And I have experienced, you know, family members that were grieved when someone was deported, and I found out that this person had a criminal record and was dangerous. So I've experienced that. So I would just say this, immigration is a difficult issue. It's a challenging issue.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's one, Tammy, that I've been involved in immigration for thirty years. I'm a pastor in Southern California. I've been in immigration court. I've written letters for people trying to immigrate to The United States. I've testified before a judge, I think three times in LA, and every single time, unfortunately, I testified, they were not granted legal status.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They were deported. This goes all the way back, I don't know if you remember this, Tammy, to my roommate in college, Charles. Charles Romualawang did not have legal and you know, was trying to immigrate here from Indonesia because of religious persecution. And he had a real case, and it was really, really difficult, and that was a tough thing to walk through. So I think we need to be careful that when we shape this argument of immigration, it's not just a brown issue, and that's kind of the way it's being shaped.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's against people who are of a darker hue. We have to be careful, because right now, as we speak, we have somebody that's immigrated on staff from Africa, who's white. We have people seeking immigration. The guy taking my picture right behind the screen is trying to immigrate as well, and we're rooting for you, buddy. We love you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So this is a big convoluted issue. I do agree that the system's broken. I do agree that the system should be better, but we have to understand. So as a Christian pastor, I care for the people and the immigrants in our church who are afraid. I actually went to DC last week specifically to ask the Trump administration about how they're going to care for good people, specifically here in Southern California, but everywhere who are obeying their laws, who are going to work.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And by the way, in California, we don't have people to do these jobs, to pick our food in the fields, to work in the hotel industry, to most of our kitchens. And that's to say that that's all that non legal immigrants do, but it's a big part of our economy here in California. And I expressed that to the Trump administration, and they acknowledged exactly what I just said. And they told me that they were going to be focusing specifically on criminals and dangerous people, and getting them off the streets. And they want to move towards some kind of comprehensive, and we hear this, you know, immigration reform.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's just a tough thing because Democrats and Republicans are so different on this issue. And I think that what we need to do is we need to pray and challenge our congressmen, Democrats, Republicans to fix this system. But just because something's broken, I don't think gives us permission as Christians to violate something. So it's a tough, tough issue to work through. My heart goes out to immigrants.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:My heart also goes out, and nobody's talked about this at our church, but we have law enforcement officers that had to go to the riots. Some of them Hispanic. I mean, you know, moms and dads that had to leave their kids and go downtown LA and got bricks and rocks thrown at them, and their lives were in harm's way. And oftentimes we forget about that, but we get angry with the people that are just doing their jobs. And so we have to care for law enforcement.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We have to care for these people. I did speak to the administration about how ICE is going about their business and just challenged them, hey, you know, the image that you guys are portraying is scary. They're wearing masks, they have machine guns. I mean, is scary stuff. And I don't think that that's how you should be going about this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I expressed that, I'm not a politician, I don't make the rules, and so I shared that. But what I think we need to do is we need to pray that our government figures it out, and we need to stay together, and not get angry at each other, and not stop speaking to each other because we have differences on political issues. But it's an issue that affects almost every area of our church people looking for immigration status, people who are in law enforcement whose lives are at risk because they're doing that, people who've had a friend, you know, deported. And then the ICE officials, which, you know, they get hated on by everybody, they got a tough job. And I'm not saying they're doing it the best way.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I don't always do my job the best way, but what we need to do is just really pray and say, God, let our politicians actually do their job, figure out some kind of comprehension, immigration reform, and let's fix this problem. But I would say this, and this is where I'll be controversial, is I think it starts with some kind of fence. I don't know why my Democratic friends lose their minds with the fence. I just went to the White House. Did I tell you guys this?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Biden doubled the size of the fence. It went from six feet to 12 feet.
Tammy Brown:That's interesting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So I think all immigration reform has to talk with securing the border. And here's why. The cartel controls it. They smuggle people. They sell people.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We had a guy that did our lawn a couple of years ago and he paid $14,000 He was 14 years old. He paid $14,000 to cross the border illegally, and I think he had a 100% interest. And if he didn't pay that, they were going to hurt him. And so we can't let the cartels control that. We have to have some kind of system and you just, I just think you have to say, look, one of the ways to fix the system is to slow the amount of numbers that are coming in and then let's deal with the people who are here.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Get rid of the bad ones, get rid of the scary ones, get rid of the ones that are other felons, the ones that we know. Because, you know, felons don't just rob, you know, other communities, they pick on Hispanic communities and they pick on, you know, their own communities. And so we need to deal with that. So that's where, you know, I would support some kind of comprehensive immigration reform, but it has to start with a secure border and it can't just be words. It actually has to be something.
Tammy Brown:I would Secure border is an interesting thing because people are so like, it's so controversial here about having one when every other country has one.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know. Tammy and I travel all over the world and and
Tammy Brown:Like, the borders are a real thing. We where was it that we went where they let the kids and I through and not you?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Oh, yeah. Yeah. Was Cambodia.
Tammy Brown:Yeah. And so it's it's just interesting how controversial that is here, and it's so accepted globally.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. I mean, it's just it's just one of the things that governments have to do, and and it is a tense issue and it is a difficult issue, but I would encourage everyone, stop throwing stones, give grace. And if you find yourself heated or angry, just take a minute and relax. And you know, just know that this issue's probably not going anywhere because the gap is so wide, but it is a real issue. It is an issue that divides us as Christians.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:But Jesus, I just want to say thank you so much for the way you asked the question. Yeah. And just know this, there's no way, if I offended anyone in my answer, that's why I'm so hesitant to talk about these things because it's impossible to answer a question in such a way that speaks to everyone's situation, everyone's need, and and and everyone's heart issue. And
Tammy Brown:That's a great segue into this next question though because you said stop throwing stones. So we're gonna go to Allison from Redlands. She says, in regards to the most recent sermon series about discernment, I wanna know why you criticized protests and Christians protesting. In the Bible, Jesus literally flipped over tables in response to what was being done in the church. I understand the context of it had to do with activities on church grounds, but he still protested.
Tammy Brown:Everything else, great. Yeah. Agreed. Just the one note about protesting didn't sit right with me, and so I wanted to ask this.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Thanks. Great question. And so let me just say this. I wish I wouldn't have said what I said because I don't think it was I don't think I said it very well, and sometimes that happened.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It wasn't in my notes. It was just kind of this passing thought. So here's what I meant to articulate. I think for anybody listening who's a Christian, I'm never here to tell you how to vote, how to think, when to protest or when not to protest. I didn't mean you as an individual.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:What I meant is we got to be careful as the church. What are we known for? And here's what I see. I see a shift in the church, big C church, moving away from really what's our power source. So what's our power source?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Really three things. Number one, prayer. So instead of protesting, right, and making our voice known, we need to be praying, praying for our cities, praying for our country, praying for policies, praying for people. And here's what really makes me sad is, I think if I called our church to go to a protest, I think I'd get way more people to that than I would if I called for a prayer meeting. I just do because culture shifted and we really feel like the way we make a difference is protesting.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so I would say our number one resource is prayer. You know, prayer is the hand that moves the arm of God. And so we got to understand that. Next is evangelism. We need to be known for sharing our faith, sharing what we're for rather than what we're against.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And most Christians, less than 1% ever share their faith. They just don't evangelize, which is a direct violation of the great commission, Matthew 2eight eighteen-twenty. And so we're not praying, we're not sharing our faith, and then the third thing that I think we do as a church is we disciple. That's why we're going to the book of Matthew. We're trying to teach you how to know God, love God, and live on mission.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Those are the three things we're trying to teach you. And protesting, here's what I meant is churches calling for people to be politically active as a group. That thing is unsettling to me because I don't see anywhere in the New Testament where that's what we're charged to And here's the thing you got to know. In the book of Hebrews, the church is being persecuted. They're losing their lives.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Whoever wrote Hebrews, we're not sure, says, hang in there. God disciplining and you need to work through this. And the people that are bailing, they weren't ever with us. We see that in one John, same thing. People are fleeing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We see this in the book of Acts, and we see it in the book of Romans. I mean, Nero is selling Christians, burning Christians at the stake, and nowhere do we see Paul say get politically active. What he says is Romans eight twenty eight, God uses all things for good to those who love him and are called according to his purpose. Now, I'm not saying there's never a situation where I wouldn't say we need to protest. There might be, and I think we need to do that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think that the church is too quick to that. I think the church has become more political and there's too much politics in the world. What we need to be is more prayer focused and prayer centered. That's what I meant to say. And that sermon, believe, was on discernment.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Was it my message on discernment? Was a couple of weeks And what I was trying to communicate, instead of running with everybody to a protest, step back, pray through it, right? And so in that passage, before I help someone with the speck in their eye, let me take the log out of my own eye. What do I do? How do I engage?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, what am I going to do? So like the last question, instead of going to a protest, making a social media post, what did I do? I went to Washington DC. I mean, Tammy knows, I preached, I got on an airplane, I got in DC at two in the morning, no hotel, got up the next morning, my suit was ripped. I didn't even tell you guys that story.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Had to find a tailor, got my suit fixed, got, you know, got into the West Wing, you know, and asked my question, hey, what's going on here? Because I actually have resources to do something rather than making a scene. And a lot of people just want to make a post to gain followers. I want to pray and make a difference. And and I got to tell you, and I told Tammy this, there other people present there and they didn't ask the questions that I asked about immigration.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:They didn't ask for clarification. And I didn't embarrass, you know, anybody. I waited until the press was not present. I asked personally, I asked the people in charge, and I did that because I want to use the power and the resources that I have. So I can't think of a situation where I would encourage our church to protest, even when we were shut down by the state of California.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Now think about that. Every campus we had was shut down by the governor of the state of California. I tried to personally work with him and through back channels to get an audience to open us. We could have protested, we could have lost our mind, we could have done all of those things, but I didn't want Governor Newsom to see me as a political opponent. I wanted him to see me as a pastor trying to do the best thing for my And oftentimes what you guys see is, oh yeah, that person's on my team and on my side.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And when I post something like that, I may not get an audience with the people that can actually make the change because they're going to run a social media thing. They're going to look at what is he posting? What is he saying before they they take a meeting with me. And I don't want to lose the opportunity to truly make a difference and to speak on behalf of the people that I represent at Sandals Church. That's good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Some people are different. Some people, man, their their influence and by the way, a lot of these people that you follow on on Instagram, social media, they have a huge online platform and a very small group of people they actually lead. I have a smaller social media presence and platform, and I have I have one of the large churches in America.
Tammy Brown:That's what I was gonna say.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Very different.
Tammy Brown:Like, you're not your bend is not social media to begin with. No. And so you're typically pretty careful for that very reason. I mean, you're that way in every area of your life is the truth, everybody. You're you're slower to kind of engage because you are like, want to pray about it.
Tammy Brown:I wanna see wisdom about it, and I really want to to untangle what do I really want to happen. Am I wanting to make a statement either on social media or wherever to appease people, or do I want to bring about change? You're you're that way in every area of your life. So it's it's always interesting for me to watch when people are like, are you gonna speak out or, you know, and you you're just much more calculated than that in the best way. I see that in every area of your life.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So here's the thing is a lot of the things that we see online are not true. They're just not true. And gossip and rumor and untruth spread faster than anything I've ever seen.
Tammy Brown:For an algorithm. Like, if you, you know, whatever your viewpoint is, you're gonna just get fed that fed that fed that so much that you don't even have clarity or like space to to to see the big picture on almost any that there is.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I get pressure from both sides, you know. You know, pressure to protest and push against Biden when I didn't do that, and pressure to protest and push against Trump's things when I don't agree with that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's just, again, I believe politics is the new religion. It has taken the seat of where the church used to And I'm trying to make the church a different place where there's kind of some freedom from that. I mean, politics has run sports, politics has run school. I don't want it to run church. Now, that doesn't mean we don't ever speak on it because there are times when we have to speak, but I have to, I'm going be held responsible for what I do and don't say.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And it's easy, you know, to think I should always speak on what directly affects you as a listener. And I'm sorry that it affects you. And it's just like you and I, Tam. I mean, you know, we care a lot about what affects us because it's our lives, but that doesn't mean, you know, I talk about, you know, everything. And I mean, that includes like the Israel Iraq war.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I mean, have Palestinians in our church, we have Arabs in our church that have a difficult time with the state of And so if I route out on stage and I'm just totally pro Israel, their soul is at stake and I want to minister to them and care for them and lead them to Jesus.
Tammy Brown:That's what I'm saying, the bigger picture is
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:the one in your Yeah, that's my call. My call is not to be some champion of all things that the government of Israel does. I'm hopeful that they'll do the right thing. I believe that God's not done with the people of Israel, but you know, what the governor of Israel does, I don't always want to just run and support that. So it's really, really difficult and nuanced, and what I would encourage you to do is, think that you'll be quick to criticize me for some things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:So when that happens, pray for me, because like your question, what I said just, it was sloppy. I shouldn't have said the way I said it. So when you say it didn't sit right, I would agree with you. Yeah, and I said it. I don't agree with it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Sometimes things come out wrong, And in that instance, I just mean about us as a church protesting. If you feel led to protest, then I would say pray about it and do what the Lord says, but don't just do it because all of your friends are doing it, or because you want to shoot a selfie on Instagram, or even sometimes it's hard to know, wait a minute, what is this about? Because oftentimes these protests are really lifting up one political side, the left or the right. And it's not really at all about the issue, but about kind of throwing darts against the other team. And so prayerfully consider that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And the last thing I would say is this, know, Allison, is Allison right?
Tammy Brown:Yeah, Allison.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yes, Jesus threw over the tables. I'm not Jesus, and you aren't either. And I think it's real quick in our anger to think that our anger is righteous. And here's what James, the half brother of Jesus says, Human anger does not accomplish the righteousness of God. So it's rarely a good thing.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I think one of the things, you know, in the Western church, the American church, we talk a lot about sex, sexuality, drunkenness, you know, alcohol, drugs, sorry, that's what I meant to say. We don't talk a lot about some of the sins that are talked about in other cultures that are in the Bible, and one of those is anger. Anger's a huge sin that just kind of isn't really dealt with in the Western church, because we oftentimes assume our sin is righteous. And the Apostle Paul says, in your sin, do not let the sun go down on your anger, lest you give the devil a foothold. And so we got to be really careful that when we think we're Jesus, we're actually doing the work of Satan.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We got to be really, really careful. And that's a tough thing. Years ago, and I know we're running late, but years ago, I remember reading letters back and forth from pastors in the 13 colonies. So some pastors were loyal to Britain because, right? What does what does the Bible teach?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Be loyal to the king. Pray for your king. God has put him in authority. And there were a lot of pastors who were like, look, we we have to be loyal to King George. Then there were other pastors that were, no, no, no.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We we know taxation without representation. We gotta be loyal to the 13 colonies. And then there were pastors that were really, really torn, and reading those letters back and forth. So they all had the same word of God. They were all trying to understand.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:When it comes to politics, it's really, really difficult to know what's right. And I just want you to know, it's what, two seventy five years ago? How long ago was 1776? Somebody do the math. They struggled with it then, we need to struggle with it now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we got to be very, very careful cause it's easy to get wrapped up in the moment. So thank you for the question, Allison. Great, great, great question. And again, I agree with you. I don't like what I said either.
Tammy Brown:Well, on that note, we'll go to the last question for this episode. It comes from Robert from Riverside. Actually, within that same sermon. So during your sermon developing spiritual discernment, we looked at Matthew seven one through six. I understand the concept of not judging others, and I know it's not the place for us to do this.
Tammy Brown:But what about judging ourselves? This is such a great question. I am my own worst critic to a fault, unfortunately. I have no clue how to regulate judgment without beating myself up. What's Jesus say to this?
Tammy Brown:Am I a hypocrite towards myself?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Right. So Robert, great question. And let me just say, I think oftentimes, one of the areas where we struggle with judgment is with ourselves, and so good judgment, Robert, is being able to discern you need to be critical of yourself and when you need to give yourself grace. That's part of discernment. And that's why Jesus says, First, take the log out of your own eye, then help people with the speck that's in And so what I would say is we all have a bend.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Some people are oblivious to their faults, and others are overwhelmed with them. I tend to be more like you. I get overwhelmed with some of my faults and I tend to beat myself up. And so I have to work vigorously to give myself grace. Sometimes I'll rehash, even like with this episode, I'll go away from this episode thinking, Oh, I shouldn't have talked about that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I just opened Pandora's box, you know, and I'll think about all the things that I said wrong. And here's the reality, I'm doing the best I can. I'm not Jesus. I'm a human being trying to pastor and shepherd people to the best of my ability, but it's never going to be perfect, and so I have to give myself grace. I also have to hold myself accountable.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so here's what I do, is I give myself grace, but I don't excuse sin. That's what I do. So if I sin, I don't excuse it. I don't pretend that it didn't happen. I have to identify, is what I'm doing sinful?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And I have to work through that. And if it's yes, then I confess it to God, or if I need to confess it to somebody else, to Tammy, and then I dismiss it. Here's what I don't do. I don't engage in self loathing. I'm no good.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:There's nothing good about me. I'm a terrible person, because the gospel says that I was worthy of Christ, that I'm worthy of God's love, that I'm a child of God. And if you go back to Genesis three, when Adam and Eve sinned, they cover themselves with fig leaves because they're naked, and there's this real interesting dialogue between Adam and God, and God says, Where are you, Adam? And Adam says, I hid from you because I was naked. And the Lord says, Who told you you were naked?
Tammy Brown:Who told you?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what that seems to indicate, Robert, is it was an external voice, probably the devil himself, saying now, hey, there's something wrong with you. You're no good. No one will ever love you. You're not valuable. And so you really have to learn to speak to that in the name of Jesus and say, I I I am.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I am valuable. When I was a kid, my brother and I, we used to sing church songs, and I don't remember who sang it, but the song was I'm a promise, I'm a possibility. And so we used to just sing that in our cars. And I remember it was such a great way, you know, thinking about who we are in Christ, you know, I'm a promise, I'm a possibility, I'm a great big bundle of potentiality, and we would sing that song, and know- I'm
Tammy Brown:wondering if you're gonna bust into it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Yeah, know, I'm not gonna bust into it, I honestly don't remember all
Tammy Brown:the I know you guys.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:I know.
Tammy Brown:You're better off.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:You know, part of what we gotta do in is teach people how loved they are, especially with our young people, with our teenagers, and with our young adults, because it's so weird in all of this, our world, right, is just over the top with self affirmation, we're telling everybody they're perfect and right. What's happened? Culture feels worse about ourselves than we ever had. And so I think what, you know, we tell people, right, you're perfect the way you are, which we all know is a bunch of horse, you know what, right? Babe.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It is. We all know that deep inside, and that's where I think our anxiety comes from. What I don't focus on, Robert, is am I perfect? What I focus in, am I perfectly loved? And so intimacy is being fully known and fully loved, and that's what God offers.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:He offers to fully know me and still love me. And you say, well, I don't deserve that. Exactly. That's why the blood of Christ cleanses me and perfects me in the eyes of God. And so I don't trust in myself, I trust in Jesus and I trust in him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And so what I would do is, you know, I have no clue to regulate judgment. So here's what I would say, Holy Spirit, teach me how to regulate judgment. Give me wisdom. And then Robert, I would get in a small group with somebody who has the gift of discernment. Tammy, I believe, has the gift of discernment for spirits.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's actually mentioned in one Corinthians 12, I think it's verse four. You guys can look that up, put in the show notes. But it's some have the gift of discerning spirits. Remember, in the church, it's not just the Holy Spirit that speaks. There are other spirits that are speaking.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And we want to hear from the Holy Spirit, not from evil spirits. And the evil spirit tells us we're no good. Who do we think we are? We can never change. We're terrible.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:We're awful. We're ugly. And what the Holy Spirit says is you're valuable. You're loved. If you're a Christian, you've been redeemed.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:If you're not a Christian, you can be redeemed. You can be purchased by God. And remember, comes from what? Someone is willing to pay for it. And God was willing to pay his son for you.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And that's where our value comes from. So Robert, I'll be praying for you. Am I a hypocrite towards myself? Yeah, we all are Robert. I mean, am, you are, we are.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:It's why we need Jesus to die for us on the cross. So I would encourage all of you, share some grace today. I don't know that you're ever going to go wrong sharing some grace. We all need discernment in these difficult times. And I would just say for everybody listening, as you wrap up this debrief and you didn't like maybe what I said or how I said it, I would just ask yourself this question.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:Am I becoming more political than I am personal with God? That's what I would ask. Because what I see, the demon of this age is people are political and they've made that their God, and that's not our God. Jesus says to Pilate, If my kingdom were of this world, my angels, remember is the Greek word. Would come and fight for me.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:And Pilate knows exactly what he means. He says, Oh, you're a king then. So he knows exactly what he's saying. And were the fighting servants of the Roman empire. So they are a powerful group.
Tammy Brown:That's
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown:good. So so thank you so Alright.
Tammy Brown:Well, that does it for this episode of the debrief. Thank you guys so much for the questions you sent in. You threw Matt some some good ones today and that's fantastic. But what you also did was you probably there's probably people listening that wanted to ask that same question and so you helped them. So thank you.
Tammy Brown:Keep submitting these questions and, you can do that by going to sandalschurch.com backslash the debrief. And until next time, see you later.
Scott Schutte:Thanks for checking out this episode. If you'd like to support this podcast, you can donate at sandalschurch.com/support. This podcast is a way for pastor Matt Brown to answer your questions about topics like the Bible, God, relationships, and culture. Like pastor Matt often says on the show, a podcast is not a pastor. If you'd like prayer or need to speak with someone about a specific situation you were going through, you can email us at help@sandalschurch.com.
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