Strategic Revenue Operations (With Mallory Lee, VP Operations at Nylas)

What does strategic RevOps look like, and how do you manage revenue production from RevOps? 

That’s exactly what we discussed with Mallory Lee, VP Operations at Nylas.

• (00:00) - Introduction
• (01:09) - Meet Mallory
• (02:48) - The difference between RevOps and unified RevOps
• (07:34) - Being a Strategic RevOps professional
• (11:32) - Weekly forecast meetings
• (15:39) - One KPI
• (21:34) - How do you get time to be strategic?
• (24:40) - Priorities, problems & solutions
• (27:44) - Pipeline council
• (34:31) - How to become proactive
• (38:09) - You can be the first person

Creators and Guests

Host

Bart Padjasek

Copywriter at Growblocks

Host

Toni Hohlbein

2x exited CRO | 1x Founder | Podcast Host

Guest

Mallory Lee

VP of Operations at Nylas

What is The Revenue Formula?

This podcast is about scaling tech startups.

Hosted by Toni Hohlbein & Raul Porojan, together they look at the full funnel.

With a combined 20 years of experience in B2B SaaS and 3 exits, they discuss growing pains, challenges and opportunities they’ve faced. Whether you're working in RevOps, sales, operations, finance or marketing - if you care about revenue, you'll care about this podcast.

If there’s one thing they hate, it’s talk. We know, it’s a bit of an oxymoron. But execution and focus is the key - that’s why each episode is designed to give 1-2 very concrete takeaways.

00:00:00] Toni: Hey everyone, this is Toni Holbein. You are listening to the Revenue Formula. In today's episode, we are talking to Mallory Lee, VP of Operations at Nylas and formerly ExecTarget and Terminus. We are talking with her about strategic revenue operations and how they used one metric. One meeting, once a week, to drive strategy forward.
[00:00:22] Enjoy.​
[00:00:23] okay, this works. Yes, we can hear you as well. So
[00:00:30] Bart: sorry. This was fun. Yeah, I just had a mini panic attack. That's alright.
[00:00:34] Toni: Okay, you know what? Let's... Let's
[00:00:37] Bart: start this all over again. Let's do this one more time.
[00:00:39] Toni: So, we have, uh, Bart back. Bart has been, uh, on a break, I guess. Uh, maybe not,
[00:00:46] Bart: but basically...
[00:00:46] Well, I mean, I've been working. Let's, let's... Well,
[00:00:49] Toni: that's true, but Bart was actually a wonderful stand in. The, what is it, the, um, what do you call the teacher? Oh, the substitute teacher. The substitute teacher. Bart was the substitute teacher while Mikkel was away. But not only do we have Bart here today, we also have Mallory from Nylas here today.
[00:01:05] Hi, Mallory. Nice to have you
[00:01:06] on the show.
[00:01:07] Mallory: Hi. Thanks for having me made.
[00:01:09] Bart: Excellent. Thanks again for coming and, and talking with us, Mallory. So for those of you who don't know, Mallory is a VP of ops at Nylas. Uh, she also has rev ops and strategy at her own consultancy company. Uh, she's a former VP of RevOps at Terminus and she started her whole career in marketing ops before she kind of went down the whole rev ops role here.
[00:01:28] So, I guess first Mallory, again, thanks so much for coming here and I would love to know kind of about your rev ops journey.
[00:01:36] Mallory: Yeah, thank you again for having me. So, I am, uh, one of those lucky few that started their career in marketing operations and just slowly started to understand the rest of the business and expanding into the entire revenue function. So, in my, the beginning of my career at ExactTarget, I learned Salesforce and I was the marketing analyst, just writing Salesforce reports all day long.
[00:02:02] grew into responsibility there, ended up becoming a marketing operations leader. I've even led entire marketing teams before, so I definitely have that strong marketing background. And of course, in marketing, you know, aligning it with sales is everything, and understanding how you're contributing to revenue and pipeline, um, is very important in marketing.
[00:02:21] So I think marketers are uniquely positioned to really understand the full picture very early on. And then at Terminus, it just kind of naturally evolved into, um, Leading the revenue operations team, taking on sales, and, and I learned a lot about comp plans and deal desk and, and all of the things associated
[00:02:42] Toni: the fun stuff.
[00:02:43] Mallory: the fun things.
[00:02:44] Toni: Yeah,
[00:02:45] Mallory: So it's been great.
[00:02:46] Bart: definitely.
[00:02:48] Toni: Actually, last time we talked, uh, we talked about, you know, marketing ops being part of revenue operations and you were like a grumpy face for a second there and then, well, it is kind of okay if it's part of a unified revenue operations role, can you just kind of recap that part of the conversation and explain what the difference is between rev ops and unified rev
[00:03:07] ops?
[00:03:08] Mallory: I guess. So at one of my former companies, I had the marketing operations team, but even just marketing operations was like six people. It was a global team. It was a very important function for us. And so I had, uh, a pretty large team of my own and then we began the journey to revenue operations. So at first that was, um, sales and services operations.
[00:03:35] And the question came up as to whether or not I wanted to join that team. And at the time, I was resistant because it's just kind of the unknown, right? And I didn't know how it was going to work to have, you know, two strong leaders in place there. How did we want to format everything? so yeah, I was against it at first.
[00:03:57] I, I didn't want to go under that RebOps umbrella. It was probably a little bit more related to, you know, my own career progression, um, than anything else. But... It gives me a huge sense of empathy for working operations professionals that are hesitant to just jump in with two feet because I spend there.
[00:04:16] Um, and then later when I joined Terminus, they already had a unified model in place where all of the operations people were working together in revenue operations already. And so that was really cool. I got to see, you know, the unification process and how that could work and Actually, I'll take that back.
[00:04:36] So when I started the CS operations person was not part of the Unified team yet. And part of my charter was to bring her in, a fabulous woman named Taylor Young. and that is where I got to see firsthand the power of just combining all of the efforts. And the learnings you share as a team, the way that you can prioritize across the different functions together.
[00:05:00] And so now I'm a believer, I think, that as long as you have the right people in place, And everyone is, uh, still feels very much a part of the department that they serve that the Unified Revenue Operations Team is the way to go.
[00:05:13] Toni: And maybe one last question on that journey. so Nihlus, right? You, you started as RevOps, uh, leader, I think VP of RevOps, if I remember correctly. And now you actually also have the BizOps side on, you know, basically kind of put on top or next to it. so first of all, I think that generally makes sense because, you know, we RevOps folks are very organized and that is, you know, that is also good for then the, the other side of the operations equation, so to speak, but, you know, with that addition, what do you think that this enables you to do more of basically?
[00:05:44] Right? Because it's also not only a question of consolidation, it's synergies, if you will. Uh, I would love to hear your thoughts on how having that full, you know, Maybe your boss isn't listening, but that full COO view of the business, uh, what does that enable you to do on top?
[00:06:01] Mallory: Yeah. Great question. So that is, I think, you know, ultimately where I would love for this to go in the direction of a more holistic operations, um, you know, that, that COO type of, of position. So that was one reason that I felt strongly about adding the business operations. And so that was something that we had discussed before I even joined Nylas and, um, the opportunity popped up a little sooner than what I thought it would.
[00:06:30] And believe it or not, I was slightly hesitant at first. I was like, okay, can, is this too large? Am I ready? You know, and, um, Lev, my, my manager or CEO, he was super encouraging. He said, well, it's what you want to do, right? And I said, yeah. He said, well, why wouldn't you do it? And I'm like, well. Great question.
[00:06:49] I don't know. So I would say at Nylas, business operations is still, you know, forming in a sense. It's not like a big department or anything. It's just sort of My, um, my extra side hobby, if you will. And for us right now, for us right now, what that looks like is, uh, really getting focused on our OKRs and making them useful and applicable and, um, something that actually means something to us.
[00:07:22] And so we've built a lot of our operations around OKRs and we have great adoption across the different teams. And that's kind of the first. Business operations, um, area that I'm tackling
[00:07:34] Bart: Nice, very cool. Yeah, a heck of a side hustle right there. Uh, but I, throughout your RevOps career, I would love to kind of talk about the idea of being a strategic RevOps professional. I think we've talked a lot of people throughout RevOps and throughout the GTM talking about how, yes, that they want to be the strategic aspect of their role.
[00:07:57] I guess before we get into any of that, what, what would you kind of define as strategic
[00:08:02] Mallory: It's a tough one, right? Um, I do think that strategic has some different definitions and part of it will depend on what your role is and how you can contribute to the overall strategy of the business. Um, one reason that I do love OKRs is because I believe if you're doing them correctly, You're taking that highest level company objective and you're translating it down into every single piece of important work that should be prioritized across the company.
[00:08:37] So, if I am a copywriter in marketing, I may not understand how I contribute to strategy. But, if you look at the way that your work is nested under the different initiatives of the company, I think that OKRs can help bring that to life for people. And so let's imagine for a minute that one of our, you know, major company objectives is to move into a new market.
[00:09:01] And so to do that, we need to start generating demand. We need to research the personas. We need to resource that effectively. And being a marketing copywriter who goes out and, you know, researches that vertical and writes content for that vertical. Make the value prop come to life for your company in that vertical is so directly aligned to the strategy of the company.
[00:09:25] And in my opinion, that is strategic. So if you are displaying people's work in the context of how it helps the company move forward, then anything can be strategic. And in my opinion, it's, it's my job and the other executives jobs to make sure that people feel empowered. To work on the things that are strategic and to not work on the things
[00:09:49] Toni: Yeah.
[00:09:50] Mallory: strategic.
[00:09:51] So, I believe that, you know, down to any individual contributor that you can feel like you're working on strategic things and that as you continue to progress in, you know, like authority or team leadership or anything like that, I think that strategic work really comes down to thinking ahead and trying to be proactive and think about What's coming three quarters from now, not just reacting to what's in front of you today.
[00:10:18] Toni: Yeah, I think kind of my spin on this, because this is very much a holistic, uh, approach right with the OKRs that's like a Chief of Staff, COO, VP of Ops kind of thing sometimes supporting the whole business also across product. I think in a, in a revenue operations perspective, it, it does fit the bill though at the same time also, right?
[00:10:38] Because really what. But what you kind of set there is, okay, what are the things that we need to achieve here? And you know, if we break them down into more digestible pieces, and for now, let's call them objectives and key results, then that's a great way to communicate that across, right? But basically aligning yourself as, as revenue operations, aligning yourself to the objectives of the CRO, you know, may that be, you know, driving more revenue or driving more efficient revenue or whatever it might be.
[00:11:07] Versus sometimes the lens that you and revenue operations have, which is very tooling process data heavy, right? I think that enables you to take that strategic leap and then also to your point to be forward looking, be proactive, you know, looking ahead. I think those were some of the words you used. I think combining those two things, I think that, that, that generates an opportunity for someone to be strategic.
[00:11:30] I would, I would agree with that.
[00:11:32] Bart: Definitely. And so I would love to know, how have you kind of done some of that stuff? For example, on the whole alignment phase, I know you had this interesting story about your weekly forecast meetings. Can you tell us a little bit about like, how that, what exactly for us that is and how that kind of came to be?
[00:11:49] Mallory: And. And. So one of our board members Kevin came up with this, um, this process. And so I cannot take credit for it at all. Um, the first time that I learned about it was in my interview with GLOBL to join Nylens and. He said that, you know, in the executive team, they have these major KPIs, and the primary vehicle for the weekly forecast is that each executive or, you know, a couple of us have um, a KPI and we are the champion of it.
[00:12:21] And so when we come together, I'm having this meeting in a few hours, when we come together every Tuesday, um, we forecast that particular KPI for the next four quarters out. And it's a fascinating process and, you know, when I heard about it for the first time, I was blown away. I thought, wow, that is so different than anything I've heard before.
[00:12:42] And I was attracted to that. It was one of the reasons that I was excited to, you know, continue learning about the opportunity at Nylas. And it really just forces you to spend time thinking about the future and looking for ways to, you know, really kind of solidify how you're going to reach that future aspirational goal.
[00:13:03] And so we set the budget for, you know, the current year and the next year, four quarters out, and then we forecast against it. And let's say, you know, if we've got a certain amount of revenue forecasted for three quarters from now, but we don't yet have the deals to make up that incremental revenue, then we will see that immediately.
[00:13:25] We won't wait until we get to Q2 and say, hmm, next quarter's pipeline is looking light. We're looking at that today. And so, it's, it's a great way to keep people thinking about the future, looking for potential blockers that are coming ahead, and it's our job to forecast the good and the bad. So, looking at macroeconomic situations, how that can impact us for the, the entire next year.
[00:13:50] Clearly, there are a lot of unknowns, but, um, it forces us to have the right conversations. And so, it's been a really cool experience for me.
[00:13:59] Toni: And in terms of metrics, right, and you don't need to give any of this away because obviously these things are Northstar pieces, but I would assume those are things like net retention rate. It's, you know, maybe pipeline or revenue booked, and then there might be a couple of others. Um, and, and those are, those are the kind of very top level metrics that you and the rest of the, of the executive team kind of having a.
[00:14:23] Turn at forecasting. That's kind of, I think, how I understood this. Um, and what, when I, you know, when I kind of were thinking about this, um, or when I was thinking about this, what is really cool here, and I would love to, you know, hear your take on this. It's, it's not that, um, let's just say you come up with a different net retention number for the rest of the year.
[00:14:43] It's not, you're going back to the budget and updating this and, you know, all of that stuff. It's really about the, the simple process of thinking through it, right? And then, you know, updating the rest of the executive team. Hey folks, those were the thoughts I had impacting this number here. number one, I'm giving you information what is in my head.
[00:15:04] Number two, I would love to hear what your opinion is on this. And then if we have agreement that there might be an issue coming up, then you would, I guess, you would start tackling this, right? I mean, that might find its way back to your OKRs or into other areas, right? I mean, this is basically a methodology, to, to try and, you know, as you said, be proactive, look, you know, being, looking ahead and, and doing this on things that are shared problems, in this case, net retention rate, you know, or, or pipeline, whatever.
[00:15:33] You know, big problems that are shared across, right? Is, is that how you guys are, uh, uh, how you guys are approaching this, basically?
[00:15:39] Mallory: you're exactly right. Um, that is the goal. And I've seen it come to life and, and work. So it's pretty, it's pretty awesome. You know, I have not been at Nylas for a full year yet, but I've continued to see this come to life and, uh, you know, maybe one cool story. So you guessed it, nail on the head. I do the net retention. That's like my major KPI. And, you know, we have several, um, there are kind of like four main ones, but, you know, net retention is comprised of, you know, your renewal rate, how well are you renewing your base, your expansion, how well are you expanding the base. And then, believe it or not, we also have to forecast the new business so that you can get an accurate rate for the future because if your business grows a lot in one quarter, your base is bigger.
[00:16:33] And so it's harder to reach that high net retention budget in the subsequent quarter. If you have a bunch of new business that you close. So I end up taking forecasts from everybody around the table, putting them together, putting my own spin on it, and then seeing what that comes out to from a net retention standpoint.
[00:16:51] And then, like you said, if I see a risk, I'll kind of give us, like, a little discount in that area and forecast it out and say, Hey, I've dropped my forecast by one point each quarter because I see a risk in XYZ. And pretty recently, one of those things that came up in the, you know, XYZ category was that, um, Nylas has a really cool opportunity.
[00:17:13] We're getting ready to release, um, the next iteration of our API platform. So that's kind of like version three for us. And we've got a process where a lot of our customers are going to benefit from, you know, totally, totally innovative things in this new platform and this new version, but there is some migration involved.
[00:17:34] And so I raised my hand right away and said, you know, can we estimate what are the benefits and what are the risks in the migration process? We know that it's going to alleviate some of our customers pain points that they're experiencing today, and that should build better affinities with product, better retention.
[00:17:54] So we have an estimate of how that will improve our retention. We also have an estimate of maybe some customers that are in overages, and maybe this gives them a chance to reformat something and get out of overages. So that will impact our expansion revenue. So lots of moving pieces. And what we found is that there were so many moving pieces that we wanted to make sure, um, we had some tight project management around it.
[00:18:21] And so believe it or not, even though I have no business understanding the technical aspects of the platform, I have begun helping out a bit with some of the project management of specifically the migration. And it's because I believe it's going to impact net retention. I believe that from a business operations standpoint, I can.
[00:18:41] add a little bit of help to, you know, get that project plan set up. And I want to be able to track in real time, is it influencing that forecast for us? And so we identified it and I raised my hand and said, Hey, can I help you guys out? And they said, yes. And so, you know, right there, you end up with a pretty big strategic objective on your plate.
[00:19:05] Toni: Yeah. I think this is really cool. I mean, this, I've seen this, by the way, a lot, and I think to a degree, to a degree, this is actually also coming from Revenue operations being cross departmental, usually also being a team that is good friends with product, good friends with finance. and then those massive cross departmental strategic projects like, like this one, right?
[00:19:28] Kind of, it's not only a, a new product development, this is influences or impacts, you know, your, your bottom line and your top line. You know, how things are being sold, how things are being migrated. and then RevOps to a degree, and you know, your, your role is a bit more evolved than, than normal revenue operations, if you will, and then getting tasked with those strategic, you know, needle moving, uh, projects basically kind of to push through.
[00:19:51] Right. So I think this is, um, this is, uh, pretty cool. Would you, would you recommend. this thing that you guys are doing in the executive team, and I guess this is the, the, the top, top executive team with, you know, product and engineering also, and they're not just the commercial teams. would you recommend something like this also being done by revenue operations that basically has the executive team being the team around the CRO or basically kind of the commercial leaders?
[00:20:17] Mallory: In a sense, I think it's, it's important for anyone to think about the future and to build your pipeline out as far as you can. Or anticipate what your needs are going to be, um, a year from now. So, I do encourage it, but I think one reason we've got the, you know, freedom to think so far out into the future is because we know our teams have a strong handle on this quarter.
[00:20:44] And so, it frees your mind to, you know, not be, hyper focused on, are we making the number this quarter? The current quarter is always part of the forecast, it's this quarter and the next four, so we are touching on it, but I think you have to be able to rely on that strong operations team, strong go to market and commercial teams to say, Yes, we've got a handle on this quarter, don't you worry about it, go do your executive thing, you know.
[00:21:12] there's, there's something really, uh, freeing about that and, you know, you have to have a lot of trust in the team around you, so. I think for that, for that group, it's, the answer is somewhere in the middle. I never want them to be completely swept up in the hair now. Um, but I do definitely want to have a very tight handle on the prayer quarter.
[00:21:34] Toni: Before Bart takes us to the next agenda point, actually one, one follow up question. So I think a lot of people are also, um, saying that they can't do those strategic things or be strategic in their role because their time is consumed 90% of, you know, by operational tasks. do you have like a... Like a quick fix tip here, or is it, well, you need to kind of go through this into higher, you know, this work is not going to go away.
[00:22:01] Do you have like a, uh, if that's, then that's just the story. Maybe we cut this out here, but, uh, do you have like a cool, like, Hey, this is, this is how I should approach it. This is how I should maybe pitch this to your boss in order to get allowance to work on this. How, how do you see that
[00:22:15] Mallory: I've been there before where someone comes to me and says, you know, I'm so busy with this thing, and
[00:22:23] Toni: Hmm.
[00:22:23] Mallory: is taking up all of my time, and this is tedious, and this takes forever, and I hate working on this. And, um. You know, as a manager, when that is the message that's brought to you, you're kind of like, well, so sorry, but like, this is the work that we need to do here.
[00:22:40] Um, so I do think it's all about the way that it is framed and the pitch that you are making to your leadership in, hey boss, I have, you know, these 10 things on my list, and I think the highest priority is these three. Do you agree? Yes. Okay, great. A lot of my time is being occupied by these bottom three things.
[00:23:01] And I'm not getting time to work on the top three strategic items. So to move us forward in XYZ area, I want to find a way to get more time to work on these top three priorities. Can you help me troubleshoot that? Here's the idea I have. Can we outsource this bond one thing? Because it's taking me 10 hours a week and I know there's a more efficient way to get it done.
[00:23:23] I don't know any, any leader who's going to say no to that. Because you're making it abundantly clear. You're not just complaining about being busy. You're literally explaining like, if you want me to work on your strategic things, help me get this one thing off my plate. I don't know anybody that would say no.
[00:23:42] Toni: Yeah, I think, and this is, this is so cool and so liberating, I think, for people that are listening to this, but there's one crucial step that people need to be able to do or to make, which is You know, what is their priority list? And, you know, what are the strategic projects and things we could be doing?
[00:24:00] and then pitching this properly and succinctly to your boss in order to then kind of get the thumbs up, right? I think there's a little bit, of, ah, you know, we don't get to do strategic stuff. And, you know, I've been there myself as, as, as a CRO, kind of me being approached. And then when you say like, okay, cool.
[00:24:18] You know, what strategic stuff do you actually want to work on? Tell me. And then there's crickets, right? And I think to your point, it needs to be, you know, what is it? And once we know what it is, cool, let's have a conversation of how we can get there. And yes, there will be a part of... you know, where we'll need to help you maybe with budget or maybe with like smaller pieces.
[00:24:37] really cool, really cool to kind of see this approach. Definitely.
[00:24:40] Bart: And I think what I really like about that is it really sells almost the value of your day to day work. Now all of a sudden you can almost put, I don't want to say you can put a dollar figure on certain items, but now all of a sudden you can.
[00:24:52] Now all of a sudden you can explain to your, you know, your CRO, CFO, whoever you're reporting to about what I want to do. Uh, and this is what it's going to have to take to
[00:25:01] get there.
[00:25:02] Mallory: And if you walk it back all the way to let's say the marketing copywriter example, perhaps this person has 10 things that they need to write and moving into the new market, that's like the highest priority or the most strategic item they have. They know it's strategic because they know that the company has an objective to move into this new market, but maybe they've got some kind of change they're making on the website and this individual instead has to go change 85 landing pages.
[00:25:30] To replace one word with another word. I'm making this up by the way, I've never seen this happen. But, they can go to their manager and say, Hey boss, it's gonna take me approximately 30 hours to make all of these 85 landing page updates. I would propose that instead I spend that 30 hours knocking out this e book, which is the strategic thing to take us into a new market.
[00:25:54] I've got a buddy who can do the 85 pages for 1, 000. Is that a good trade off? Do you mind if we do that? Like, coming with a solution and then explaining what you're going to do instead, I think is, is really the important part, like you're saying, Toni. And in my opinion, the OKRs, or just making sure that people feel connected, you know, their work has to connect to the strategy of the company.
[00:26:17] If they can identify that dotted line, then it gives them a better way to explain what they want to work on instead and how to be strategic. I think when you hear those crickets and someone doesn't know what they want to do to get more strategic, it's because they literally don't understand how their work connects to strategy.
[00:26:36] Toni: Yeah, I think that's an excellent point and puts also the, some of the work back to leadership and management to make sure that the strategy is well articulated and communicated, um, you know, throughout the organization so people can actually have a chance to hang the hat on that, right? I think in revenue operations, sometimes it's a bit simpler.
[00:26:55] It's, Hey, we need to do more revenue, you know, come up with ideas how to, you know, how to do that. Um, but yeah, no, I totally, I totally actually agree with this. Okay, and
[00:27:04] Bart: let's go into the next topic about, uh, operating cadences, essentially. Uh, I, I think, uh, it's something we always kind of talk about here internally.
[00:27:13] Uh, this guy had a bit of a revenue letter, uh, about the three and a half meetings you need to have, uh, a week. You talked about on your LinkedIn how at Nylas you guys have a really strict operating cadence of your dailies, weeklies, bi weeklies, monthlies, quarterlies, whatnot. I guess like, one of the things when I first looked at that whole report and saw how many meetings we were actually having, the first thing that came to me is like, a lot of that can seem very overwhelming when you're first even starting to organize all that.
[00:27:39] Like, how has your career kind of been organizing things like that and setting that up?
[00:27:44] Mallory: Yeah. First, I'll say that Nylas doesn't do... Every single thing on that list yet, right? So, it does take time. It's something that you have to evolve into, and I think it's going to be different for every company. So, I view that operating cadence that you're referring to as kind of a menu of things to pick from.
[00:28:04] Like, we want to try adopting this. This is something cadence for other people. and, you know, I think it definitely depends on... When you're getting started, how are you coming into the organization? Like, how is your team evolving? I was lucky at Nylas to join as a senior leader, and if I had a suggestion about reformatting some meetings, That was kind of in my purview to decide.
[00:28:31] And so that was, pretty easy for me to do because I just booked the meeting and people started showing up.
[00:28:38] You're the boss. Yeah, you have to be the boss sometimes. And so, um, that's a cool, that's a cool way to, to get started, but I've also experienced the, um, the other end of that, where it was back when we, um, Back when we were at the company where I did not want to join Revenue Operations, uh, the person leading Revenue Operations started this Pipeline Council.
[00:29:05] And every week, it was, you know, the Revenue Operations team and the Marketing Operations team coming together.
[00:29:13] Toni: Air quotes being used, by the way, for everyone who can't see.
[00:29:17] Mallory: Make sure the air quality is still on the video, right?
[00:29:20] Yeah. Because we needed to be on the same page. We needed to have the same view of the pipeline. We needed to talk about demand generation. And it was this cross functional need that we had, So that was a little bit more organic. It was two teams coming together, choosing to discuss something that was very important cross functionally.
[00:29:38] The pipeline council that we have today is kind of led by revenue operations, but we invite The marketing leaders, the sales leaders, um, you know, if you've got like a partnerships person, they're half the time they're going to be there. Lots of different ways to pull those constituents together. Um, but I think the way that the meetings end up getting onto the calendar is going to be slightly different in every, in every situation.
[00:30:02] Um, my advice is don't try to bite off five at a time. Like, start with one, Show people that you can organize a meeting and deliver value and make sure they're getting that value before you start to try to add more cadences. Um, that would be probably the way that I would do it.
[00:30:22] Toni: So one question I have on that, because operating cadence, sounds like, well, that's very operational. how do you, if at all, I don't know, how do you connect us back to the strategic piece, kind of that we talked about earlier?
[00:30:36] Mallory: Great question. So, so my thinking is that a good RevOps cadence or operating cadence will not just be a series of meetings, but it's also a way to deliver information at a predictable time so that people have the insights they need. Really kind of before they realize they need them, right? So, it's Monday morning, and I'm waking up, I'm grumpy, I've got my first cup of coffee, and I sit down, I'm like, ugh, how am I going to tackle the week?
[00:31:09] And then all of a sudden, this dashboard magically lands in my inbox, and I'm like, oh, I'll look at this thing, and it gives me everything I need to see about my business that could lead me to understand, like, here's the problem I want to tackle this week. So, the timing of these things, and being able to have, like, The context and leading the way, you know, operations is all about leading with influence.
[00:31:34] It's not about leading with authority most of the time. So influencing your partners and your leadership team to, you know, look at insights at the time that you believe it's going to make sense for them. Start planning in a timeframe that's going to make sense for the business, not waiting until the last minute.
[00:31:53] You know, it's kind of guiding just that, that rhythm of work being done. But doing it in a way that is very much about servant leadership, giving people the information they need with context and insights, not just Dumping a report in their lap. Um, those are ways that I would say you can strategically guide your team to you know, be thinking about some things that you know they need to be thinking about but they've got a whole department to run and they've got deals to close Yeah,
[00:32:21] Toni: no, I think this is a really cool spin on this, right? So to a degree, it's also these, these guidelines that you're, or these guardrails almost that you're kind of mentioning here, they are kind of governed to a degree also by your budget and by your revenue plan and what needs to be achieved and by when.
[00:32:38] And to a degree, I think RevOps then takes the role of a very high level. Project manager, if you will, kind of coming in, you know, are we on track? What's behind, what needs to be done next versus, you know, instead of doing this in a project sense, where it's like, Oh, this task needs to be checked off or whatever, but it's like, Hey, we're behind on pipeline generation.
[00:32:58] We're behind on this, we're ahead on this, you know, what are we going to do about the problems that we're having? I think, um, you know, you know, running the agenda, owning the meeting and then, you know, being the resource that unearth those problems potentially.
[00:33:13] And then being the resource that pushes everyone sitting there and we're talking, you know, VP sales, VP marketing or C level even, pushing those folks to figure out what the solution is, I think it's, it's sometimes sounds very nitty gritty operational, but it's really just breaking the strategy down into kind of smaller bites and chunks, which I think is a, is a very much a strategic skill even, uh, and then function in the end.
[00:33:39] to really execute within the business.
[00:33:43] Mallory: I agree. The order in which you tackle things um, has a surprising effect as well because if you have, you know, a topic that you really need to dive in on to understand it better Before you can do your plan for next quarter, then let's orchestrate together the time and space that we need to understand that thing prior to the planning cycle starting.
[00:34:03] And it sounds so simple, but when everyone's busy, it's not that simple. And calendars are a challenge, and you know, I'm super lucky to have a lot of go to market leadership that is very proactive, and it's not very often that I need to say something to them along the lines of, Hey, we're behind on pipeline.
[00:34:21] Like we're all very much on the same page. And I think, um, you know, you have to, you have to get lucky in that sense. You don't find that at every single company.
[00:34:31] Bart: Yeah, absolutely. Now, I think that leads me to one of my last points talking about. It is very easy to kinda get up, get caught up with your calendar and get caught up with all the, the, the system admin stuff you potentially have to do, especially if you are venue in, in revenue operations. Maybe your leadership isn't as proactive as you'd want them to be.
[00:34:51] So I would love to know your advice to, to those people there, how can they actually start becoming more proactive? What are the steps they should be starting to
[00:34:59] Toni: take?
[00:34:59] Mallory: Then good question.
[00:35:02] Toni: It's a different, It's a she answered it a little bit earlier, by the way, so it's a little bit unfair actually, but I would love to hear what comes out of this.
[00:35:10] Mallory: Yeah, so I think it's the same, I think it's the same approach, right? You need to clearly communicate. with the team. And so if there's an example, let's say, your RevOps person is not on that, like, main leadership team. you're just reporting into the CRO and you're fighting the good fight. You're trying to get your seat at the table, all these things.
[00:35:35] I do think that's pretty common, by the way. Um, I think what I would do is I would make the same list of 10 things. Here's what me and my team are working on. Here are the ways that I believe I should be helping you and here's the stuff that I would love to do if I could free up some time on these things.
[00:35:55] And maybe that means you need to add an analyst to your team, or maybe that means you need, um, you know, an agency to help manage your sales force. Whatever it is to like, get your time to become a little bit more available to build an operating cadence and start a pipeline council. Those are some of the things I talk to people and they say, Oh, I'd love to do that.
[00:36:15] I would love to lead that at my company. Go name it. Go tell people, I would like to do this for us. And here are the couple of things that I need to draw up in order to, to have the time to be strategic for you. And, um, you know, just say it. Don't try to like make people guess what we're thinking or, or wait for someone to
[00:36:35] Toni: Yeah,
[00:36:35] Mallory: to be strategic.
[00:36:36] You need to just, you know, come talk about it.
[00:36:40] Toni: I think it's, and now we're just riffing on this maybe a little bit, but, um, uh, I think, you know, have a, have an understanding what the problem set of your boss looks like, or the CRO, or whoever you report to, And then, you know, identify issues that might be there, you know, this, it's boring, but there's a gap in pipeline, or there's something else happening, or conversion rates are down, or whatever it might be.
[00:37:05] and then use that as an inspiration for, you know, what you could be doing about it, right? and that's... You know, it sounds, it sounds a bit forced to call the strategic, but it certainly is a hell of a lot more strategic than doing, you know, another update to the Apex code or a validation rule or something like this, right?
[00:37:24] It's kind of, Hey, here's an issue with the conversion that we're seeing. I did some analysis. This is probably what this is driving. I talked to a bunch of people. This is how I would solve it. Can I have the time to solve it, please? And I think if you come with a very specific task or ask like this. you know, worst case, it's a, it's a reprioritization of reshuffling.
[00:37:43] It's like, okay, you know what, pause this thing that you're doing right now, jump on this, uh, instead. Uh, and best case, it might lead to, yeah, you know what, actually, I want you to keep finding those things, and I want you to keep fixing those things, because they actually help me solve my problems. And let's figure out how we can, you know, deal with this other stuff that you're doing instead, right?
[00:38:02] I think that's, um, that, that would be my tip, actually. Find. Find pains of your boss, and try and kind of address those.
[00:38:09] Mallory: Yeah, I agree. And if someone works in a business where they're very swept up in the current quarter and, and maybe not thinking as far ahead as what you'd, you know, maybe like to, there's no harm in being the first person to start writing down what you think will happen in four quarters from now. and Yeah. that you approach your manager and say, You have identified this thing that's happening today, and I think in three quarters from now, we're going to really feel pain from this.
[00:38:40] So that's why it's important to tackle because, you know, maybe this quarter looks fine, but down the road it's going to have a negative impact. We need to address it today. Letting people know that you are thinking ahead, I think is another good way to help them understand your point of view.
[00:38:57] Toni: Yeah. And you know, just, you know, adding to this one, it's really, and I think you mentioned this earlier a little bit, so you as a, as a, in your current role and with the leadership team that is around you, you have kind of the luxury of kind of thinking ahead. I think... While some of the thinking ahead sounds really silly and easy, Oh, we're not creating those opportunities that we need to, It's not the pipeline coming out of this, we have an issue coming up.
[00:39:22] You know, while it sounds super simple when you say it out loud, You know, synthesizing this and then saying, Actually, I think we will have a 30% gap in Q4 coming up. And we are, you know, we should rethink the hires that we're, you know, making right now, you know, while everyone around you might probably have the capability and the skill to think through it the same way, you were still the one doing it and you were triggering that potentially kind of action kind of to go in a different direction.
[00:39:51] And I think just, you know, forcing yourself whether or not you do it in this. Executive team set up thinking about NRR and how that changes, but forcing yourself somewhere else, not in the executive team to think about how pipeline is developing and you know, what might come out of this. I think that's a really easy low hanging fruit of, of trying to show the business, show everyone around you that you have the ability to be way more strategic than, than you're currently being leveraged.
[00:40:18] Yep.
[00:40:18] Mallory: point.
[00:40:20] Bart: Definitely. And I think like, as we wrap up, I just want to say that I think this episode has had a lot of great actionable advice for everyone that's been listening in here. I think a lot of great things to create, you know, uh, this proactive environment that, that, that is aligned. And, and I like, especially I think what you said about the operating cadence that you don't need to start full out.
[00:40:37] Like you just, I think every little thing you can start at least a little bit, uh, to kind of eventually get you to that proactive quote unquote strategic RevOps
[00:40:47] role.
[00:40:48] Mallory: of course.
[00:40:49] Bart: Wonderful. Excellent. Awesome. Well, thanks again, Mallory, for joining us here today. It was
[00:40:53] great to have
[00:40:53] Toni: You Thank you so much.
[00:40:54] Mallory: having me.