Keep Going

Even though we didn't plan this episode to link up so well with the last one (see Ep 88: Liminal Running (Part I): Breaking Frames), it just does. A continued bending of the tariffs impact on Atreyu & Michael's livelihood with one of Steve's major philosophical positions, soul-style. 
We really catch a groove here & are interested in your feedback, if you've got any. Thanks for listening, we truly appreciate our listeners. Godspeed, y'all, godspeed. 

Creators and Guests

MK
Host
Michael Krajicek
Host
Steve Sisson
Coach, podcaster, writer, runner, accidental philosopher, guide. Exploring running as soulmaking.

What is Keep Going?

Two guys - a shoe designer & a coach - talk shit about running, mostly. This podcast is our therapy & fills a critical need for human conversation in our lives. Welcome along for the ride.

Steve:

I don't even know what button to press anymore.

Michael:

Give me the chimes. We gotta get really think that Crickets? Yeah.

Steve:

Or do you want

Michael:

That's the one. Need that button closer to me.

Steve:

Here, I'll move.

Michael:

No. Eventually, I'm gonna get I guarantee you that things got MIDI on the back of it.

Steve:

Oh, it does?

Michael:

I'm gonna probably make my own little controller where I can plug into it.

Steve:

There's no doubt about it. It's a relatively sophisticated piece of machinery that I use. Everybody's got it. As dumb as possible. Yeah.

Steve:

Actually, each of these pads has multiple sections and you can add it onto the pad, but you want it's a

Michael:

little bit too far too. Yeah. It's a

Steve:

little bit too far

Michael:

for me. No. I make a little

Steve:

You should do it. Five feet pipe in there. It would add more color as if our conversations weren't covered.

Michael:

I I brought you something this morning that I thought was interesting, and I'm gonna tee it up one more time now that you've had some time to think about it. I, you know, I was super, super afraid of this coming across as like, alright. How do I even talk about this? So currently, you know, if you rope in the geopolitical stuff into this whole thing, like, China like, producing in China where we're produced is like I'm on the fence about it. I'm on the I like, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to do it and or at least when.

Michael:

I mean, it could be in two days or two months or two years. I really don't know. And not anybody seems to know that. And for me to, like, uproot my production lines or my tooling equipment, everything, could take months, you know, and then to establish new contacts and, you know, all the stuff.

Steve:

Because of the uncertainty, there's so much risk.

Michael:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. So the question becomes like, I don't want this to be like the time where I'm like, I'm thinking about calling it in or anything like that. I'm just saying like it's crossed my mind like, hey, man. Just what are the realistic things going on?

Michael:

And so I've started thinking like, hey, man. Like, what what's the future gonna look like? That's about as simple of a question as I can boil it down to. What does the future look like? I'd like to continue what I'm doing and maybe it's in this capacity, maybe it takes a different shade, maybe I get to move to Vietnam, whatever there is.

Michael:

So, I started thinking like, I tried the other day, I tried to build this like a decision triage Mhmm. In a literal spreadsheet and I was like, you know, do how I make decisions? And I'd be like, this is kind of a big a big thing to break off, but I had I have had some time. It's kind of like a forced sabbatical. It's kinda weird.

Michael:

Because I don't know. For the first time, like, a tray you has been a lot of my good or stupid decisions and it's always in my circle of influence. This one's kind of, like, out of my circle of influence, so I've had, like, some time to think. Like, I was like, alright, what what's going on here? So I tried to build like a decision tree that I could throw things into, like, consider moving a tree you production to Vietnam.

Michael:

Like, what are the short term, long term? Like, all the stuff that goes into it.

Steve:

Or Because the tariffs would be different there?

Michael:

Or They're different there. Yeah. They're different in Indonesia. They're different in Vietnam.

Steve:

So The US has a different pricing a tariff percentage based on the country you're utilizing?

Michael:

Yeah. China has hit way more. So China's at, like That's fucking bullshit. Yeah. It's crazy.

Michael:

But it it literally is at, like, 245% or a 140 I don't even know which one it is anymore. It's, really high to where it's, like, oh, there's a clear embargo on goods, like, kind of an idea right now. They the Vietnam one has been reduced down to, like, I don't I think it's been like 10% or something like that. But again, it's super, super complex, so it's like, obviously And

Steve:

you

Michael:

have

Steve:

to break all those great relationships you have with people who just because

Michael:

they're gonna for like six years.

Steve:

Because they're a particular government that they're not didn't choose, they just got there.

Michael:

Yeah. So, you can now sweep all that Take

Steve:

a deep breath. I'm just gonna say take a deep breath.

Michael:

Yeah. Take all that and sweep it under the rug, This and you is can imagine far, I'm where

Steve:

I gonna end up equity and inclusion and opportunity, we're just gonna fuck one country because they scare us.

Michael:

That's another thing I've been thinking about. Is America actually an idea at this point? Uh-huh. It always

Steve:

has been.

Michael:

It's always been bullshit.

Steve:

Don't get me started, man.

Michael:

Yeah. We're not gonna go down that road.

Steve:

Do you remember there was a whole thread I sent to you that said we should talk about, is it possible to have a different government? I actually had a I I said to you the argument. Maybe we could have a discussion around and you were like, I don't know if that

Michael:

was later. Later date. So what I started thinking about is this decision tree, and it was like, it was kinda corny. It was like, is this decision meaningful? Does it work in the future?

Michael:

All this shit. It's not fucking corny, You know, it's like all this stuff, and it was like

Steve:

It's the real stuff.

Michael:

Is this something that is feeding the ego or feeding some pragmatic reality? Like, what's happening here? And I could go read them but I failed to remember what they were. Was like, kind of like

Steve:

Actually, that's personal anyway. Yeah. I don't think you need to share that with people. I mean, it could be useful as a separate podcast episode.

Michael:

Oh, like the the triage list? Yeah.

Steve:

It would still be needed to be translated by each person for their individual use. Otherwise, it's just like watching

Michael:

Well, got me thinking. I had this idea, and I was like It really brought me back to my roots when I was a kid, and I was thinking, I was kinda the narrating class, and I always had something to prove. I was, like, a little bit of the outsider. And I was like, I'm not gonna play football. I'm gonna play hockey.

Michael:

I'm not gonna do I'm not gonna do sports. I'm gonna play guitar.

Steve:

I totally I have gotten to know this part of Michael that I didn't know when I first met you.

Michael:

Where it's like you just always go the other way?

Steve:

I mean, you gotta pedal steel

Michael:

in your living room. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

Steve:

You're So always gonna go somewhere. Yeah. Like, you're gonna go down you're gonna see what everybody wants and then you're gonna be like, oh, I'm gonna do that, but my own version

Michael:

of it. Yeah. And it got me thinking. And so, you can imagine, again, I do not wanna tee this up as the time where I tell the world that what I think I should or shouldn't do. That's not what this conversation is about.

Michael:

But I imagine, went down this little mental exercise like, if this doesn't all work out and I don't have the ability to produce in China, what would I do? Would I pivot? Would I consider a job at another shoe company? And that was an interesting question. And I was like, well, know, would they even like my skills there?

Michael:

I was like, that's an interesting question. Would they, you know, what would that life look like? And that was a fun one to put through the decision tree because I was like And then Lena asked me, she was like, do you actually want to contribute to their vision of sport? Do you want to convi do you enjoy, you know, putting your little stamp on culture in the way that you see it? And I was like, oh, well, this whole thing, like, I really don't know if I'm, you know, wanting to, like, galvanize somebody else's view of what racing or this or that should be.

Michael:

So it's interesting. It's like Nike's all about domination and New Balance I don't know what New Balance is about, to tell you what

Steve:

Trying to turn

Michael:

the cool shit.

Steve:

They're the upsetters. They're the original They're upsetters. They've been upsetting for a long time,

Michael:

by the New Balance. Quietly, kind of like

Steve:

the '80s. Yeah. An athlete named Mark Kurp. Look him up. World class.

Steve:

World class. Mostly a road 10 ks half marathon guy who didn't move up to the marathon, who New Balance has sponsored from the very beginning. Pete Fitzinger, our first he was he won the Olympic trials. I mean, New Balance has consistently been in the game, not only of innovating

Michael:

Yeah. Even their supply chain and and their athletes. It's been really cool.

Steve:

And think about the September series, the old school fucking dad rock shoe that's, like, super cool that's always been available.

Michael:

But they've always been so subtle to

Steve:

where

Michael:

it feels like I 'm like, well, that's interesting. It's like kinda the exact opposite of the overt, the covert Nike, So you But anyway, again, beside the point, but all this to say that it got me thinking about, like, oh, that's a interesting take. Is it about is my is my profession more of, like, vocation, or is it, like, is it pursuit or purpose, or is it purpose driven, pursuit driven? Practice driven? Or just financially Like, you need a job, as well have one.

Michael:

So I like what I do here. It's such a funny idea. I started thinking, was like, my theory was I bet there's two kinds of people, people who It's kinda like the adage, it's like, do you work to live or do you live to work? And I kind of I live to work, but I love But I have to love my work.

Steve:

That's because you're an entrepreneur. But see, you're gonna have to reframe some of this based on that, which is part of what we're gonna be talking about today, right?

Michael:

Yeah. Yeah. And so, obviously, that's big thing for me to like, oh yeah, like, when you're forced with something out, these like all this tariff business like, it's it's literally forcing people out of business. So that's that's a reality. So it's hard not to be like, oh shit, this is kind of like, it's an interesting I'm seeing It'll make you think.

Michael:

So, definitely some, like, great introspection there, but

Steve:

Let me me share it in that.

Michael:

I started thinking about it in sport because we're constantly talking about, like, oh, well, this is the goal or this is not the goal. And it's like, I bet you there my theory was to clean it all up. There's two types of ideas that you can approach something with and I think even that's very confusing. It's confusing for me right now. It's confusing to understand if what I do is for the money or for, you know, to for, you know, to be able to live in this city, and also love There's a lot of different ways that you can kind of do that, but when you rope it into like a running routine, like, it's pretty much I was like, oh, this is like, literally the exact same mental discourse that somebody would have to take when they're like evaluating their intention or, you know, their briefing.

Michael:

Maybe I don't know why I'm running. Maybe it's interesting that I've had more fun running at, like, aerobic paces than I ever have running at threshold paces or or beyond. So it's kinda like, well, why is that? It's an interesting kinda So you

Steve:

you said there are two types of people. Flesh a little bit more what you mean by that. Or two types of practices or however you're framing this, because I don't know that that came clear to me.

Michael:

Well, you got

Steve:

because I folks immediately moved it right into my own personal experience, which is why we couldn't disconnect this morning. I realized, Oh, we disconnected because I was trying to find its place with me. Maybe frame this, what are the two types? You just said it twice. You kind of think there might be two types.

Steve:

What are they? And then we can see if there's more than that or we can go wherever we need to. Just trying to clarify the question

Michael:

because I didn't

Steve:

get it.

Michael:

Maybe

Steve:

And I pulled the sis in of just making it personal, which

Michael:

No, no, no. I think that there's two ways of approaching something. One is through like okay. Now, this actually I don't know if I can answer that because what I wanna tell you is something that I think is interesting. So I realized take how difficult it is to even triage a decision with values values based based like like finding our values even in something like our employment or what we do or what we identify with.

Michael:

And I feel like some people either use use that. It

Steve:

I

Michael:

guess my thought is one of them feel feels like it was, like, embedded in my DNA from from a child. The way I approach things. And what is that? Like, my need to have a healthy amount of discovery every day with work and kinda try and conquer something as opposed to somebody who kind of relishes in the grandeur of life, the sweetness of just being. I find I typically, even for as long as I can remember, have found value and identification in the pursuit, not necessarily the practice.

Michael:

Like, the pursuit being, what are you gonna study? Where are you gonna go to school? Like, it all really meant something. Like And I know that that's an easy thing to say, but I think for some folks, it's like They're like Their natural inclination is just to like exist in the grandeur that is awesome. Frankly, I think it's amazing.

Michael:

But I've never had that turn off switch.

Steve:

Just FYI, they're extremely rare. I'm not an expert, but been down this road both within the sport, in the industry, and also in people. It's rarer than you would expect.

Michael:

Yeah. So when I'm thinking about it in terms of, like, running, like, am I running because I kind of sucked at cross country when I was a kid and I just wanted to beat it when I was 26 and I was like, fuck that old dude. Like, let's go get him and let's show him that you're a great runner. Or did I really fall in love with just like the the the beautiful aspects of just existing in the practice of it. And and so I think at any given time, like understanding where we are is is a good exercise.

Michael:

I don't know if there's two types of people but I do think there's two mindsets. One is existing in the practice of it, and one is existing in the pursuit of it, they seem to be two different. And becoming. Yeah, exactly. Mhmm.

Michael:

Anyway, that was my thought.

Steve:

I am so excited by this topic. But I think that the thing that's really important here, and I'm definitely ready to jam now that I got it clear. Mhmm. I think one of the most important things, and I sensed this, I wanted to say this earlier, but you were working your way through it and I didn't wanna pinpoint it as a potential and then it be wrong and then us go off on some other territory. But it sounds like what we're really looking at here is we And and please, you know, tell me if you think I'm wrong about this.

Steve:

I think what you're doing is Michael's soul style. Okay? And you're wondering how that soul style fits within a construct of other soul style, other ways of being, right? And the reason why I frame it this way is because I think you would never be able to ask this question about pursuit or practice or being or becoming, or what part of us is going out there to achieve, and what part of us is just literally waking up each day to be, and I think that one of the things that's so critical is that people don't know their style. So you already have a pretty clear indication of your general style, but your experience both through training, maybe even through our conversations, through your experience with Atreyu, you begin to realize that while you have this tendency towards becoming, there's a part of you that's truly always being.

Steve:

There's a part of you that wants to pursue because pursuit is how our Western society has been built. It's how our education system's built. It's how all of our sports systems are built. It's how our economic system is built. Everything's built on this pursuit, and we could get into that, but I'll I'll leave that as a political discussion at another point.

Steve:

And then you're also, but, like, I have this deep need for being as well because I am Michael. Right? Or Steve is Steve. And, okay, you might be like, What the fuck are you talking about, Steve? What I'm saying is we all have a soul style.

Steve:

Until you're in situations like Michael's in right now where you are wondering what the next day will bring creatively, but even at some kind of existential level of your day to day living situation and how you support your family, support all the people that you work for, all the customers you have, all those areas of responsibility that you hold. But you have a style, brother, and that style, if you lock that in, if you continue to nuance and grow and use the various challenges and circumstances that show up in your day to day living, training wise, work wise, all these other things, you're gonna be so much more effective regardless of where you end up. Whether you end up at a continuing with a with a and, again, we're going into the specifics of your work scenario, but even if you were gonna be an entrepreneur stay as an entrepreneur, pivot your entrepreneurship, which could be consulting, which is still be an entrepreneur, but you're doing it for other companies, but you're not building the shoes. Could go to work for a shoe company. You could go work for as a Walmart greeter or a project manager.

Steve:

You'd be a fucking epic project manager at some company.

Michael:

But you don't get to do much. You do.

Steve:

You have to do it for somebody else. I would I would I would But do you see what I'm saying? It's like, you see how this suddenly opens up?

Michael:

I have to, like, get my fingers in everything and be like, oh, no. Need to Do

Steve:

you see how that's your style? Yeah. But what part of your style is based on this entrepreneur freedom that you've had and the stressors around it, and what part of that is my goal? And okay, let's go bring this into run. And the reason why I bring that up, because I just had a conversation with an athlete today around how they adapted my workout.

Steve:

Our workout that we did today is a classic. It's called mixed up miles, and you're alternating between a marathon pace and a faster than marathon pace. Oh, that's what

Michael:

it was? Man, I really dialed it back. My MGP is now a minute That felt good too, which is another story.

Steve:

But this particular athlete came back to me and said, I made a decision in the middle of the workout to pivot it away. Was that a good choice? You know, my statement was, it depends. You know, it depends. And my ultimate point, and I don't wanna go into all the diminution, all the details, although I can, and I'm happy to do it with anybody that ever wants to, I said to him, what's critical is that you determine your style and make sure you're not just following your style for the sake of style, but you're growing and you're giving yourself some chance to expand.

Steve:

I do think it's important to realize that what's going on in this process of tariffs is requiring you to be the best Michael you can be. And I wanna go back. I I felt really bad in our last conversation, the one that'll come out right before this one, in which I said to you, suck it up, buttercup. It's fucking uncertainty. What you're looking for what you're looking for is something certain in an environment where certainty is not a guarantee, and you're asking the federal government to give you that is not really a reasonable thing, in my opinion, not being in that world.

Steve:

Right? Personally. However, we do know that our federal government does take care of a whole bunch of other people and absolutely says that is what the value structure is of which you've committed to by making sure you paid off all your shoes before. You've done all the right things, and then our federal government is like, fuck you. But it also said fuck you in a 100,000 other ways, which is another political conversation.

Steve:

But ultimately, it doesn't matter. What you have to do is deal with this question. And where have you come since then in the week that we last talked? You've been been looking at uncertainty as a real potential and the various ways that you could change your life, and then that just reiterates and reinvigorates your soul style. What makes you special?

Steve:

Because, Michael, you are an n of one, a unicorn, a fucking rock star, and everybody's the same thing. I sound like goddamn Anthony Robbins right now. Tony Robbins makes me sick because of some things I know about Tony Robbins, but I do think that this is crucial for people to pick up in their workspace, in their relationship space, in their training space, in their value space. If you don't know your soul style, you are literally being manipulated by the powers that be. And you realize, hey.

Steve:

These motherfuckers are manipulating me. There's uncertainty. Yeah. It's pretty much nature is uncertain. So what Dow, now what are you doing?

Steve:

Now you're like, fuck it, motherfucker. I'm gonna figure out what I'm gonna do. And then you realize, oh, there's 10 different directions I could go. Oh my god. Which will be the right one?

Steve:

All of them. None of them. Who fucking cares? What's your soul style? What are you gonna do?

Steve:

Where are you gonna frame this? Because if you do that, guess what? You're gonna wake up every single morning whistling Dixie. Yes, you're gonna have struggles, child problems, issues. Yes, your wife's gonna say, Why don't we make money?

Steve:

Why do we make less money? They're gonna say, Why do you not spend so much time with me because you're spending so much time working? Or, Why don't we have more money in our account? Now, your wife is super sweet. She's not that way.

Steve:

Doing that internally. Why do I not have more free time? Why do I not make more money? Like, these are the so, basically, the only answer to that, in my opinion, and I mean this at the highest existential level, this is my whole point of existence. We have a soul style.

Steve:

I don't know if it's I don't wanna get into the metaphysics of it, but I'll just say the actual reality of it is we can all frame, live, decide how we're gonna do things, and your question of is it one way or another? It's both, it's neither, it's whatever, but the most important thing is it all reveals your continuing to grow into Michael ness.

Michael:

That's where I Sorry. I just poorly went off. That was actually really nice. That was really good. Shit.

Michael:

I think it reframed the delineation of, like, it is or isn't. It's both is and isn't.

Steve:

It always is both is and Always.

Michael:

And I think where I tried to figure out how this fits into something that was like super meaningful about our running routines is that when you get into a program like Telos or you're doing like a a training plan on the internet, it seems to be dictated as do the stuff. There's stuff you need to do on your pursuit and go do that. And I think it's so interesting, like, how much it needs to be like, here's this, but I'm gonna pull it back from you so you can pull it. Like, it's such a weird thing to even in running, like, the culture of it is so I don't know if it's it's like so brittle because you got all this shit that motivates people. And then you but that same motivation can like really, really be like, it it like sucks the soul out of your own style.

Michael:

So to a certain extent, is like, is a whole thing about like, well, I get it now. It's actually at at a macro view, you know, running culture is a little bit fucked because because of the the macro. It's just a training plan without any nuance. Like, it's just the fast shoe without any races. Like, it's so fascinating to me that, like but when you when you zoom into the micro level, you know, and you get really close in and it's it's so it's so much like more nuanced than that.

Michael:

It's like, well, it's like your athlete this morning. And this morning, I was like, oh, this is this is a three I I did three by two two by three miles with some intervals in between. You you know, it's hard to explain. But but the point is just on off on off on off.

Steve:

Right.

Michael:

And and I really was like, oh, I really do think I love this new this new idea, which is like I bet if I ask Steve for just like a perceived effort, like I wanna start over like an Etch A Sketch, like fuck it all. Can we can we base it off of a time trial, our rate of perceived exertion? And then we reevaluate where the base is, and then go from there. I was like, that's great. But I'm gonna do that based off of, like, where I feel the most me when I'm running.

Michael:

And I'm wondering if you've ever thought about, you know, having an Etch A Sketch where it's like time trials but based off of field. I'm not telling anybody what we're doing today, but it's easy, meaning easy, real fucking easy, and real hard. And then really going from there and be like, that's your baseline. I'm I'm gonna graduate. I'm gonna night you all with your new marathon goal times.

Michael:

Like, I'm giving them to you based off of what you told me about what you know about yourself, which is the emotion that you went through when you're doing the thing. And I'm like, damn. So I had all these ideas morning on that run, but I was like, oh, but that overrides so much of the prescriptive nature of what we need in the running culture, and I was like, that's where it's fucked. That's where the crux comes in. It's it's it's like both fucked and awesome at the same time.

Michael:

And that's where, like, it is back to, well, which style do you fall on or which style? It's like, well, it isn't and it isn't. It's great to have fast ass shoes, but you might as you you know, let's be realistic about, what that entails. Or it's great to have, you know, the tip of the spear and, you know, the zeitgeist of running marketing and races and Boston Marathons and a five minute, you know, cut off that, like, it's like, alright, this all exists but it's it's such a beautiful, weird thing, so it's like, I think I got one step closer to why I think the culture is a little bit wacky. Yes.

Michael:

And I wanna make sure that I'm clear about this. The thing I think is

Steve:

a big disconnect for many people is that when I say the term soul style, sometimes people think I'm saying personal style. And the key here is that the soul obliterates identity. It obliterates some form of co opted or easy find of your thing. It's so easy. It was so easy for me to like The Cure in 1998.

Steve:

Mhmm. 1988. It was so easy because it was everywhere. And then all of a sudden they weren't cool anymore. So then I had to decide, is the cure part of who I am or is the cure part of the identity that I adopt?

Steve:

Let me reframe that from a running perspective. I'm gonna do this in a couple of different domains, okay? Just because I think it can be helpful. I want to get a Boston qualifier. I really want to get a Boston qualifier.

Steve:

And now I've identified as the person trying to get a Boston qualifier, so I have to get the Boston qualifier. Well, you've just identified, and the time is going to shift and flex and move. We know this, but yet people still just spend all their time identifying. It's this identification with the particular thing that creates 98% of the problems. 2% of the problems are the fact that people don't know what they know by soul, but I think that almost because of the space that we operate in culturally, we have so many areas where we just know that it's okay that I like more umami than I like sweet, or I like more heavy metal than I like classical.

Steve:

And we know that. We don't identify with it. We've got enough variety in our streams to know what we prefer. But yet, when that gets stuck I like The Cure in 1988 when kiss me kiss me kiss me was all the rage. And then they put out disintegration and only the fucking mopes liked it.

Steve:

Only the people who were like, Ugh, life It is the is because that's what The Cure was before, and then it was kiss me, kiss me, kiss me, and everything was, like, super cool and poppy and fun. But then you look at the guy, and he looks like fucking death warmed over on a cracker, dressed up like fucking like a grumpy Boy George, and you're like, what the fuck is this this band is that was my experience. This band is weird. Do I identify with this band? And then I realized, I don't identify with this band.

Steve:

There's all kinds of weird things going on, but the music moves me both from both angles, both from the direction of the poppy, you know, kiss me, kiss me, kiss me, all the way to then disintegration and the droney weird shit that they did. I'm using this because it was for me a point in time in which I can say, I have a soul style. It's the cure in a variety of different formats, and that that they shift formats requires me as a human to then decide who I am or what I'm all about. But in the past, when I was in high school, it was like I had to be I had to like the cure. That's why I started liking them because They were the cure.

Steve:

And they were all the couple of friends I had or the image I had of it and everything else. And I use this because it's so helpful because everybody's gone through this. Everybody's gone through a

Michael:

period But you had of to step back. So I'm getting the point here. At what point there was a time that came when you had to step back and you go, oh, shit. I got a little bit wrapped up in it. In the identity.

Michael:

And it overrided kind of like the flow of where I needed to be at this particular moment.

Steve:

Correct. And running is a little harder because our culture is so solidified against

Michael:

the rules. That's what I'm saying. That's exactly the

Steve:

what I will

Michael:

so many say is points to reevaluate where you are. And it's like, you don't wanna do it too much because you don't wanna be uncommitted to an idea, you know? But you don't wanna be overly committed to the idea. But I use that example of the

Steve:

cure because everybody's going through it. Yeah.

Michael:

For sure.

Steve:

And everybody's going through it and running, but their culture is so fucked that they don't see it. But this conversation I had with this athlete, right in the middle of it, I said to him, This is a discussion between you and your nervous system. He's like, What? I'm like, Your nervous system is hardwiring something, and you're having to adapt and adjust to it. He's like, yeah, but I need to run this time.

Steve:

Do you? That's the that's the input. K. No one Initially, everybody was like, You must be

Michael:

cool when you like it. People who have been, like, who are kind of And this is wrong to put it in two types, but that's where my brain went, is there are, like, people that are good at overriding the system in order to, you know, break through the and then achieve. Mhmm. And then there are people that wonder if too much overriding of the system gets us out of touch with, like, why we enjoy, you know, like, it's so spacey.

Steve:

It's And I would just say that neither one of those is a true soul style.

Michael:

It's like And that's why

Steve:

I don't like Those are both identifications.

Michael:

That's why I don't identify as an entrepreneur because that term to me is reserved for people who are great at the sport of business.

Steve:

No. Dude, I do identify as an entrepreneur because I deal with the fucking bull. I just paid my taxes, dude. I'm a self employed entrepreneur, I don't even run it through an LLC or anything. Do you know how much I get I like I

Michael:

would call you but that's

Steve:

where you we But it is? I'm not a successful entrepreneur.

Michael:

Know. Would say that

Steve:

am I, a small

Michael:

business guess what I'm owner? Saying is that you're more, to me, you're more of an expeditionary of sorts. Yes. There was

Steve:

no space for me, so I made my own space. But it's still entrepreneurship.

Michael:

It is, but it's just a branding thing. It's like, oh, that word kind of like,

Steve:

I call me guess I don't identify as an entrepreneur, but I know that's the category in which I have to fit because I have to pay my taxes and they make me kinda I don't check an entrepreneur box off, but self employed really does set you into that space. And yes, I do think entrepreneur, as you're indicating here, has some kind of sexy appeal in our culture that you and I both know is not the real nit. That's why anybody says to me, I wanna be entrepreneur. I'm like, no, you don't.

Michael:

There's another thing where I'm always trying to zig, you know, around the idea. I'm like, no, no, no. Let's not go there. I don't wanna be those labels. I'm just trying to

Steve:

Okay. Let's try to bring this back, because I do agree, I got really off I got so focused in on the identity part, but the reason I wanted to push the identity is I think it's really hard for runners to see where they identify, and they don't recognize, look how long

Michael:

it's taken you to even

Steve:

begin to realize that there's a process here, a process going between these two poles that I'm just I mean, I'm not saying these are real. It's just been But I will say it's fifty years of running experience and thirty years of coaching experience that says to me, people, that there is a pursuit and there's practice. Because I was gonna say this earlier and then I'll pin it and then move on real quick. I had a similar experience to what you're going through right now in the pandemic because I lost all my business. Everybody went away because everybody I worked with was in pursuit.

Steve:

And couldn't pay my bills. I couldn't pay my home mortgage. I had to pivot and my pivot was existential just like yours is and it made me realize what I was really doing when I was coaching was helping people have a movement practice and that we were all so focused on a pursuit that we failed to see the movement practice. So I created this idea of a movement practice, which has existed in many other areas, in many other domains, in martial arts, yoga, spiritual practices, blah blah blah, all of which I'm kind of into, not into any of those specifically, but just into the theory behind them, and so I pulled a pole, right? Another pole that all we've had in running is you just run for fun, but they don't even call that a practice.

Steve:

It's just like, I do it for my health, which was not even recognizing what was going on, or I'm a racer and I'm practicing, pursuing, and everybody's so focused. In our community, in our world, the people that are listening to us are likely feeling this push me, pull me around pursuit, and what I'm saying is, know there's a practice happening no matter whether you recognize it or not. I'm calling it a practice. It could be anything. I don't know what it is, but it's I'm just gonna call it back because I gotta call it something, nobody's paying attention to the fact that they're doing it.

Steve:

Your wife said to me this morning, I did not wanna get out of bed this morning, and I got out of bed this morning and I ran, and I am so happy I got out of bed this morning. That's a fucking practice. She did not get out of bed for the pursuit. She got out of bed for practice, and it's so cool. Anyway, I had to come up with this concept because I was gonna lose my business, just like you're trying to And so what's Sisen's soul style?

Steve:

So therefore, what's Talos's soul style? Some kind of personal personal path making, personal soul making within this concept of soul style. What There are these two ways of doing it. What's your particular soul style? Are you gonna be a little more focused on pursuit?

Steve:

Most of the people I work with are primarily pursuit, but I'm trying to remind them that they have a practice so that when someone like Lena is not in a pursuit, she's like, I'm still doing something really cool and I'm doing it with a group of people and I can run a business off of that because people are gonna because Lena pays me a monthly fee, and she shows up so I can be there for her, so her practice can be valued, and so she can have that one moment where she's like, oh my god, thank you for being here. She didn't say it exactly that way, but I took it as, thank you for being here because I reconnected with why I do this. Dude, do you know that's not easy? That's that's not That that's scary as fuck, dude. To be in a place five years ago where I'm gonna put a stake out here on this side, and I'm gonna try to go that direction.

Steve:

Anyway, I just said all that to give you a frame for why I think this is so important. Soul is different from identity. Drastically different. There are many areas in which they sort of feed into each other, Venn diagram ishy, right? But they're separate, and we're souls, in my view.

Steve:

We are not identities. Become a dad. You will shift your identity. Your primary identity will move to being a father. It just will.

Steve:

And so then you realize the fluidity, but will you be not Michael? No. Your soul will grow into the space of daddy ing, whatever that is. Micheal ing as dad. I don't know.

Steve:

Sorry. You're looking at me like an alien life form and I'm

Michael:

makes sense. At first, didn't understand what you meant by Identity. Identity. I'm like, oh, that's it's identification really helped clean identity up.

Steve:

It's really you have to that's why I said meant it wasn't the And great

Michael:

the cure example was really nice.

Steve:

I don't know if it was.

Michael:

It It worked for

Steve:

me because I'm such a huge cure fan.

Michael:

No. No. And

Steve:

that era of kiss me kiss me kiss me is not the cure. There's no way it's the cure. It's the least cure of all the cure, but it's still some of my favorite songs ever because they're poppy and they got me through some really fucking depressive suicidal times in my life. But this anyway.

Michael:

No. No. Do you think

Steve:

I get so fired up. Thank you for doing this with me because I get a chance to share these weird fucking crazy ideas.

Michael:

They're not weird. This is vague mean, this is what I was thinking about this morning. So do you think that this is is is this why this, for sure, this has to be why trail running is different? Oh, yes. Like, and this is trail runners now here's the that's a funny one because it's like the mirror image where it's like, I identify as somebody who doesn't run on the roads because fuck roads and I wanna do trails and it's like, I just wanna run for the trail.

Steve:

Trail runners are the punks.

Michael:

Yeah, they're the punks.

Steve:

Runners are the punks.

Michael:

And so Oh, that's funny. Yeah. That's a It's a It's like the It's the shadow side of the Roadrunner. Absolutely. The alternate.

Michael:

That's why the Roadrunners are always, like, pointing at the going, like, you're just out there fucking Bullshit. Basically You can make it all up. Yeah. It doesn't really matter.

Steve:

There's no there's no stake in the ground.

Michael:

And then the trailrunners are looking at the roadrunners going, like Not at all. Fucking all you type a assholes out there. And it's and it you know, I I do I don't think that anyone is is more virtuous than the other or, you know, the better value system. Like, they're just it's just a different kind

Steve:

And I I I have because I came up as a pursuit athlete, right, I then found trail running.

Michael:

I then found became trail running a part of a soul feeding thing as a opposed to

Steve:

a young boy, I would get out on the trails and there was no such thing as trail running. It was only ultra running at the day. Right? Dude, you know So I'm a weird hybrid because I believe I'm a of

Michael:

little that you never tried to build a strictly trail, ultra endurance bike.

Steve:

Did. I did, but that pro but I was doing it at Rogue at the same time that I was coaching collegiately a pro group and trying to run a business for pursuit based athletes. And I went into trail stuff, but then it got I mean, I'm just gonna basically say stolen from me multiple times by people who are still operating in their businesses right now. They just basically straight up stole it, and there was no I had no way to do anything about it except go in there and fight, but I was already fighting in other areas, and mean, I honestly will say that, like, it's hard it's hard to find some area of the sport of distance running that I have not completely and fully inundated myself in completely. I'm not trying to toot my own horn.

Steve:

I'm just saying it's just a fact. I ran trail running business before trail running businesses were businesses. So, yes, I've done it, but what I've realized is that space does it requires a community element that's not the primary focus of how I operate. Was wondering if

Michael:

you could build if you build that kind of there is something interesting that hits me. It just pulling the thread where the conversation goes, kind of leaping into a different Each area. Different area here. But, like, I could imagine when you when you talk about the best times in a trail running and their coaching and what happened, like, get really excited about it. And a lot of times, trail running is a it's it it's it it strikes me as laissez faire.

Michael:

Like, we're gonna be out here, it's chill, it's it's like a trail race, man. Like, you can come and do it. And there's some people that are pursuing that really hard, but it's an interesting individual pursuit. Like, it's fascinating. I just thought, like, Hey, man.

Michael:

Wonder if you brought your pursuit to the trail running space.

Steve:

So I have a strong opinion about this. Yeah. And my strong opinion is that it should not be separated. I do have people I coach purely for trail running. Mhmm.

Steve:

And I make them do road stuff. Yeah. And I can't make my road people do the trail because they get all fucking tender footed.

Michael:

It's a little harder to go from road to trails. They get

Steve:

all scared. They're gonna fall down and brake and they won't be able to run. I'm like, Get the fuck out of here. Are you kidding me?

Michael:

You see them as the same thing? They're fragile. You can kinda go in between them I rode these. With time

Steve:

They're all fragile. If they're afraid of the trail, you're fragile, man. If you think you're gonna fall, then that even argues for even more reason why you should be on the fucking trail. You need to get over that shit. You need to realize that your body's adapting purely.

Steve:

I mean, feel I am more of a trail person than I am a road person, by far. I run 90% of my mileage on the trail, but I still deeply value the roads. But I don't think the best way to prepare for trail racing is to train on the trails. I think you can't quite get the neuromuscular recruitment pattern, all the physiological attributes that we're trying to do, they require a little bit of Even when you're discussing, Oh, I'm just gonna go by feel and I'm gonna set my perceived effort, which is another whole conversation, we should talk about how to do that, how that might look, we could do that next time. Like, what would the protocols be, and how do you do that, and how do you reinforce it?

Michael:

I don't want that to be lost in this conversation. I think we should try it, and if you wanna experiment with it, I'm willing to put It's myself on the chopping

Steve:

a question I've been working with a variety of different athletes many venues in different ways. It's a really important conversation. But the thing that I find is that trail runners tend to get slow, and people always say it, I get out on the trails and I got slow. Well, you didn't also bring in the road stuff, and you get the greatest physiological benefit from being able to know that the work you're doing is in the zone that you're trying to train. Not that those zones are, you know, specifically where they are.

Steve:

They're, you know, I don't know that there's a true v o two zone or a true aerobic threshold or anaerobic threshold. I think those things are a lot more fluid and open, but being on the road gives you a chance to track things more consistently and see how your improvement is going. And now, could do the same thing if you chose your 800 meter route on a trail.

Michael:

The trail actually, in theory, I bet you it could work, you know, elements under the hood, you know, such as the nervous system. When you're doing pursuit work on a trail and then you get onto the road and you don't have the extra input, you're able to operate more freely and fluidly.

Steve:

But that's a real problem. That's coming from a theory, not a practice. The practice of that is trail runners get bored, and they don't know why it matters. If you start doing your intervals on the trail, then you're gonna immediately realize that time is completely non relevant. And then you're gonna may get the mistake that that time's not a useful parameter for training.

Steve:

So the problem is with the trails, you have to do it on the same route consistently, you have to be able to attribute what those variables might be coming from. That's fascinating. And that's why I use the roads primarily, because then I know that my and I've got you know, we've got a guy who, last summer, ran all of the Continental Divide, Ross. Right? Yeah.

Steve:

And he has stated and he got pulled into my training group because of a friend group that got him in there, and he was like, I'm gonna do more Ultra stuff. And I'm I think you should just do the roads too. And he's walked away from all of his experiences on trails and said, Every trail runner should be doing some of their work on the road, so they continue to know and have the numbers to figure out where they actually are. Now, he's a data guy. He's really into data.

Steve:

He's like, can't get the data variable sets appropriately calibrated on the trails the same way I can get them calibrated on the road.

Michael:

You can only really do distance and or aerobic or anaerobic.

Steve:

You could set an 800 meter route or

Michael:

could five mile route. Get scrappy about it, but every time I'm off the road, it's interesting that the metrics just, like, they really dilute down to

Steve:

Yes. Do you see how a trail runner would then come to the road and be like, What the fuck is this shit? Then they would be like, Oh, now I'm being bossed by my watch. Now my boss botch is telling me what to do. I don't like that because they've already taken that freedom.

Steve:

And what I'm saying is, and this goes back to the point you were making, which I think we need to do an episode on. How do you develop a feeling state protocol? How do you take effort and pin it in a way that can be useful from a training perspective? Because ultimately, this is the thing, okay? Let's go back to the overall conversation.

Steve:

People pursued or are people practiced?

Michael:

Great question.

Steve:

Are people more dialed in? And what I will say is that we're both, and we're gonna always be both. We're gonna have a tendency one direction or another, which is why I got all bent out of shape about soul style. I think it's really important to have a soul style. But ultimately, just know you're both and decide to which degree, depending on the season you're in and the way that you're going, how you're gonna approach that.

Steve:

Michael, you have been a great example of this. All last summer going into the fall when you were getting ready for Detroit, these the episodes that we cut where we talked about your experience training are some of the best episodes there are out there about at any They're the best Some of the best content there is about training, not because I'm the coach and you are the athlete, but because we were exploring the way that training has an effect on your body, mind, and soul, and we did it in a way that wasn't systematic, and let me tell you how to do it, and then we're gonna do it this way, and then this week we're gonna do this, and week three we're gonna do this.

Michael:

It's explorative.

Steve:

It was expeditionary, as you like to say. Expeditionary. Expeditionary. And so that creates a content stream that allowed you to, like, unfold slowly unfold what worked for you. And interestingly enough, out of that came this experience that we discussed after your race was over.

Steve:

Oh my god. You realized what I didn't know, and you helped you were the first one to show me. I thought that racing was only when you ended. Like, the race was culmination of the cycle.

Michael:

Right.

Steve:

Now, I knew it was also the beginning of the next cycle because I use it as a coach, but I didn't note that it was both, and it was unique itself. I knew it in the background but I didn't and

Michael:

now the theme I'm with toast both that of those ideas is continuity. Yes. To me, that's where the special sauce comes from because if you discreetly look at the Iron Man stuff and give it a grade, you could probably grade it as a C. Like, oh, there's a lot of good and there was some bad. Hey, man, you did pretty good just going off the grid and trying something new.

Michael:

But then, if you grade the next one, which is like, Oh, Detroit. It's like, interesting. You kinda you kinda leveled up. Like, we'll give you some points on that and, you know, you you didn't kinda prove prove it in the race, but if you add it to the Ironman, then it's kind of like, alright, those are two completely different things but you're still moving forward. And then you kind of go into this new thing where I'm like, hey man, let's like kind of let's let's start off the Chicago block with like this wacky idea that like, let's get a marathon time based off of where I am at this exact moment when we start.

Michael:

We'll like, earmark it. We'll we'll try a different We'll come up with, like, a little test that can say, like, this is what my body feels. I won't wear a watch, you'll use a stopwatch, like, all kinds of weird shit. And I'm like, Hey, let's just try something new. That's like The point I'm trying to make is, like, if you just do one of these things once, it's just an average idea.

Michael:

You know, it's just like kind of like a, Oh, you just either tried or didn't try or tried not to try or whatever

Steve:

It's the just meh.

Michael:

Yeah, it's just whatever. But if you put them all together and string it together with the glue of commitment or continuity or that what I always like to talk about which was such a simplified take on why running forever is a valuable pursuit, and that was written by Ambi Burfoot. Like, it was just like, oh, wait. That because that was the first time, like, had that awakening about racing and how you could, like, fuse that into your coaching style. But that book was actually the thing that kind of got me out of, I need to qualify for this race to do this race to do this race because I only have, like, a five year window to really compete.

Michael:

And then but for the first time when I read that book, it was like, well, actually, oh shit, it can go further. So we can go first. Have practice. Then, like, you can grade your commitment instead of grading the the kind of, like, the the idea of each discrete phase. And it gets better.

Michael:

It gets better if you have more more things to throw into, you know, maybe the more different, the better. Or if you're the kind of personality that just likes to that's where I keep coming back to this odd theory. Was like, I wonder if there are two types with this so that was such a but I think that's where I was coming from. It's either you're grading it off of, like, measuring it up against last season's performance versus this one. Everything is, like, you know, a pursuit of excellence, like, in comparison to last one, or it can be A tough full frame.

Steve:

Yeah. It's always a helpful frame. Yeah. Two points I wanna make from what you just shared. One is there's also been this other discrete period that you've been going through since Detroit ended to now, which would be remiss if I didn't make you realize how important this is to your journey, and maybe you get an A for your checkout.

Michael:

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Do you

Steve:

know how I don't know that you will ever, because you're not gonna get metrics, how essential this process has been.

Michael:

Well, mentally dealing with the fact that I'm not where everybody else is at this point like

Steve:

It's real easy to measure yourself up against. Know what

Michael:

I mean? But even becoming comfortable with being non optimized is a really That's

Steve:

what I'm

Michael:

that's excellence. First of

Steve:

all, you through a period where you weren't even thinking about non optimized, but then you realized, Oh, I'm kinda being little bit slackadaisical, maybe I could do a little bit more running. Maybe I'm just doing it all on my own. And maybe you were thinking about the race that you have coming up, so it's like, I do need to dovetail back in with the group. It's been fun to just do my own thing, and part of that has been a disconnect or a challenge. But I do think all of that is part of training.

Steve:

You know what I mean? You know, remember I said that one of the touchstones of the TELUS system is everything is training? You've been training, but just different aspects of what training is. Mhmm. And that's crucial, in my opinion, as valuable as whatever grade you might give yourself for your And remember, that's the other point.

Steve:

These grades that you're giving yourself, what are they based on? Are they based on physiology? Performance? They on culture?

Michael:

Is I intended to do this thing, did I get it done? And never like, did you overachieve? It's like how much did you underachieve, you pipsqueak? Like, you know, so it's like our goals are always set up to to like the reality of underachievement. Very rarely do we set ourselves up to overachieve.

Michael:

That's another side of the question too, which is, you know, we could probably queue that up down the road, but, like, underachieving versus overachieving and the split on that, like, where

Steve:

do we think going? I think there you're unique in your underachieving. I think the vast majority of people that I work with think that they're on some kind of hero's journey. And that's a real problem that I have to unpack with them over time. That's one of the things that's made it so easy working with you because you're always you realize this is a fool's journey.

Steve:

This is just Michael doing Michael. You never have gotten confused with comparing yourself to other people. You sometimes feel a little uncomfortable when you're running with people that are moving much faster or who are in a different fitness place, and you're wondering where you're at, but it's never been a question about your identity. But you are very rare in that category, Michael. Most people I work with, they immediately start doing the big measuring Well,

Michael:

that's why I always give credit to Nina for, you know, when it comes and that's the original idea for this entire conversation. She's just so gifted at loving life. And, like, yeah, she's got hard shit and she deals with hard shit all the time and she deals with emotions all the time, but like, she's really, really good at enjoying the good stuff. Like, the stuff that's like

Steve:

But she's really, really challenged when we get to two weeks out from a race. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it gets real serious.

Michael:

Well, then me, I spend 90% of the time, you know, like, stressed about optimization in the work or pursuit or whatever.

Steve:

And she never worries about it.

Michael:

And she never worries about it. So it's like, yeah, mean, she for a small period of time, she's like, damn, like, you know, it's it's a really cool that to me is a style thing where it's like It is. You know, she's like into my yang. But you could

Steve:

get locked into your style and not see the value of her style. She can get locked into her style and not see the value of yours and know that the growth is trying new things so you can determine more and more. It's like me going through that Cure phase where I realized disintegration was the Cure album there was. Sure. It's better than the other stuff that I thought, Stories by the Sea.

Steve:

It's better than Kiss Me, Kiss Me, Kiss Me. It's the end, but it required me to be a mope. Yeah. To lean into the mope and lean into the drone and lean into this other thing that was going on in me, and I grew because I didn't identify. I just I moved in I don't know.

Steve:

It's like I think it's so I think this is the point. I personally think there Ultimately, someone could view my worldview as nihilistic. Because I don't think anything matters. But the flip of that is that everything matters.

Michael:

Yeah. Yeah. I know.

Steve:

Some days you'll catch me feeling down in my You know, I got a tear in my beard and I'm not feeling so good and I'm really low, like on the April 15 when I had taxes and I'm wondering how I'm gonna pay my bills and take care of my family and blah blah blah because I get real worried about that. And I realize, that's just a fucking identity role I'm holding onto. What's my real soul style? Play the hands that are in front of me. Can we play even under great duress?

Steve:

And what I sense from you, the growth in you since the last conversation or your tariff talk, is this openness to exploring potential pathways for employment that will honor the current stuff you've been doing, hopeful to continue doing that stuff, but if you're not allowed to do that stuff for whatever reason based on your own internal decision making or political decision making, theme I

Michael:

have now is nothing is guaranteed and nothing is certain. That's it.

Steve:

Do you see why I pushed that point last week? I felt bad about it, I almost sent you a text to

Michael:

apologize. No, no, no.

Steve:

And then I'm like, no, sometimes we just I do think this is the particular point of view that I've held and hard fought holding to the uncertainty of

Michael:

life. I value that.

Steve:

Human nature to want certainty, to do everything we can do for certainty, and each of us will have our own soul style around our comfort zone in that area, but we can't deny that there are certain things. Right? There are poles, and we're working on those poles. Pursuit. Practice.

Steve:

Yeah. Are you an entrepreneur? Are you working for the man? Yeah. Well, which even as I'm working for the man, you might We're

Michael:

operating kind of working for the man. Even if we're an entrepreneur, even if we're not doing anything, we're anti the man. 100%.

Steve:

Everything's everything all the time. It's one. It's like it's all the same thing, just varying degrees. One of my favorite quotes of all time, this came from a teacher that I studied with for a while. I had it pinned on my wall for a number of years.

Steve:

We moved, it's not there anymore. I love this quote. All the same, deeply experienced. I try to live my life that way as much as I can. Everything is all the same.

Steve:

Up, down, fast, forward, pain, suffering, happiness, joy, excitement, great music, horrible music, the best food, shit sandwiches, all the same. But you have to deeply experience. There, the nuance It's like the one and the 10,000 things. Yeah. It's like it's so It's a dichotomy.

Steve:

It's really hard. I guess I could say that if I had a pitch for why I'm the right coach for a certain group of people, is that if you're interested in that You had just said the other day I didn't

Michael:

say but struggling with one part of it too. Try to integrate or struggling with the routine.

Steve:

To try to integrate integrate more fully, or you're curious about it, or you're wondering

Michael:

It's been nice to not get into a I think I take it for granted because it's like, not only is it my the way that I like to I would if I went with Telos, like, I really wouldn't be doing anything. Even before Telos, was kind of like a nomad. You

Steve:

were, yeah. Know that. I'm so honored that you continue to grace us with your presence. Seriously, you're

Michael:

It's so a lovely thing, man.

Steve:

And your wife is always wonderful, too.

Michael:

She's amazing. And but that's the I think that's his it is so there's too many there's too many systems out there that just are a little bit too prescriptive and it's just like, yeah, I I think that is I think that is the point. I think that's an interesting thing.

Steve:

My whole system is based on you have a soul style, and we're gonna train your nervous system to that soul style, and you're gonna root out identity structures. That's

Michael:

great. That all makes sense now.

Steve:

We're gonna root out identity structures because they're not real, and they don't hold up under pressure. They're bullshit, and you know they're bullshit, and they don't hold up.

Michael:

Yeah. Steve, we should I'm not saying that we should cap it right there, but I'm saying that that's the most if you listen to this conversation and then you can use that as a as a very clean way of like saying what you mean, that's the most articulate I've heard it but it took it took a lot of discourse to get there. But, like, but really, I do think it comes down to, like, let's let's strip a lot of the identity away and just get down to what it really means and why you're actually here. And if you say that before, it sounds like, what's your intention? What are you grateful for?

Michael:

All this stuff, but everybody knows that it's so fucking hard to be grateful when you are in a position to not be open to gratitude, like it's So and to do the work to actually be in that position takes a lot of work. It takes more work to be happy than it is to be pissed off. And there's a lot of dead ends,

Steve:

and if you're not guided, you could get sucked into a dead end for an extended period of time, and you need to see a blind spot and then you can come out of it in a way that's helpful. Like this athlete who didn't know whether he did right with the workout, he thought he did right, and what I did was I provoked him just a little bit to say, Yeah, you need to realize that later that won't be right. So that's okay today. It was right today, but it won't be right for all the time. And what you're looking for is a way to do these workouts to either, a, check a box or, b, feel safe, and this system is not designed to help you feel safe.

Steve:

It's designed to create the capacity and the capability to stretch out and be open to more so that you can then make the right decision on race day, whatever that might be. And guess what? Good luck, because the marathon always wins and you're gonna get fucking go roped. A fool's errand. All of this is a fool's errand.

Steve:

Anyway

Michael:

I love this one. This one was really, really good. I didn't expect it to to end up where it ended up, but I really really am pumped about it. Now I

Steve:

get I always feel so bad when I get so I mean, I got animated today. I didn't

Michael:

think so at all. Think you're very, very We need a segment name for this, like Steve and Mike's critique of the convo. I've never heard you more articulate about a values based system than you were today. I think it was amazing. I'm writing a book.

Steve:

I don't know if it'll ever come out to the world, but these are the things that are framing questions that require me to work through them, and so they're relevant right now.

Michael:

And one, you should isolate that. It was really, really good. It was really good.

Steve:

Well, feel bad

Michael:

about I find the it trying interesting that make you give yourself any thought about it. It's just like me. It's like, sometimes I'll say things and I'll second guess it and you're like, No, that was great. I'm like, Man.

Steve:

I have a long history of being traumatized by my over exuberance and interest in esoteric, weird topics. That's the point of what we're doing is we need blast me for it. And I'm made to feel so inadequate, and now I'm realizing it's my goddamn fucking superpower.

Michael:

No, no. Yeah. Go on X. I have everybody telling me that, Go read the fucking comments. I know.

Steve:

Read them,

Michael:

man. They're brutal.

Steve:

Some people said you were pale or something. By

Michael:

the way, you're a motherfucker, whoever you are, dude. You you were looking at the YouTube comments.

Steve:

Oh, was

Michael:

looking at

Steve:

YouTube. X. Oh, I

Michael:

have I mean, that

Steve:

Yeah. I'm not really on x.

Michael:

Don't know what place is. I'll just I'll I might change shops.

Steve:

Some of them too. Yeah. Yeah. I can't take that place.

Michael:

Yeah. So so here

Steve:

yeah. I I have the let's run forum in my life. I don't need x. I've got all the You've got it all sickness and distorted twisted incel bullshit that's going on in the world

Michael:

right gets amazing, man. Like, I think that's what that's my goal is to be able to say what I mean more freely without the fear of I think I think my is another conversation for another day, but like, I know I identify what you said about like getting on what like, getting on a soapbox and then getting like blasted for it after, like saying what you mean, but I also think that there is a skill in being able to articulate what you actually mean, just like being able to articulate because the way that we soapbox sometimes can either be from a position of practice or pursuit. And if we're pursuing something that's a little bit out of our practice, then it's like it becomes disingenuous and then that disingenuity or whatever the fuck can become something that's problematic and you can't defend yourself when people come to the table. But in this thing, like on X, I'm just like, oh, this is hilarious because it's just like I'm defending it. So I'm in a phase of my life where I'm trying to, like, able to speak louder but more confidently, whereas I was in a position I went from speaking loud not confidently to speaking not speaking at all to speaking louder and more confidently.

Steve:

That's beautiful. Well, Michael, this was, again, this Podcast is Our Therapy.

Michael:

That's right.

Steve:

Part two. We appreciate y'all for listening. And yeah, keep We've got a few more people sending us emails telling us what they like and don't like. Those are deeply appreciated. And you do that, we will respond.

Steve:

One or both of us will respond to you, so we appreciate you. Yeah. Godspeed.