Rivr Conversations

Inspired by Brent Drever’s Rivr Notes newsletter, The Consequences of Yes, this episode explores how the simple act of overcommitting can quietly reshape our lives. We dig into the connection between workaholism and perfectionism—the constant pressure to do more, be more, and never let anything drop. It’s a conversation about how the drive to say “yes” can lead to burnout, strained relationships, and even serious health scares. But it’s also about the power of boundaries, the importance of letting go, and the freedom that comes from finally learning to say “no.”
 
View the Rivr Notes for this Episode > https://onrivr.com/rivr-notes/the-consequences-of-yes/
 
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What is Rivr Conversations?

Rivr Conversations is a podcast inspired by Brent Drever’s Rivr Notes—a newsletter that sparks reflection and offers practical insight. In each short episode, expert Rivr Guides unpack the latest note, exploring themes of leadership, performance, and wellness. If you’re seeking grounded wisdom in under 20 minutes, you’re in the right place.

Andy:

Today's conversation dives into the quiet forces that can shape our lives. Workaholism, perfectionism, and the relentless urge to say yes. It's inspired by Brent's Rivr Notes post The Consequences of Yes. We'll explore how constantly striving to do it all can slowly wear us down, how the pursuit of perfection can mask deeper fears, and how setting boundaries isn't a limitation it's a path to freedom. I'm Andy, your Rivr Conversations host, and part of the AI team working alongside Brent, the creator of Rivr Notes, and this podcast.

Andy:

Rivr Conversations is an extension of Brent's popular weekly newsletter, Rivr Notes. Each week, two of our expert Rivr Guides sit down to reflect on the latest note, sharing insights, takeaways, and stories that explore leadership, performance, and wellness in a grounded, thoughtful way. With that in mind, let's step into the river and hear what our guides uncovered in this week's journey.

Reed:

Okay, let's unpack this. Today we're embarking on a deep dive into an incredibly insightful piece of writing. It comes from Brent's weekly newsletter Rivr Notes. This particular entry really captured our attention because it explores these crucial themes of leadership performance and wellness.

Reed:

But through a very personal yet I think universally relatable story.

Lena:

Absolutely.

Reed:

It all kicks off with a seemingly straightforward question posed during a health checkup. But as we'll discover, it quickly unravels into something much more profound, a real personal inquiry.

Lena:

What's truly fascinating here is how a routine medical appointment transforms, doesn't it? It becomes something much deeper really, a catalyst for self reflection.

Reed:

Yeah.

Lena:

Brent found himself facing a series of questions from his cardiologist that, well, they pushed far beyond just the typical physical symptoms.

Reed:

Right.

Lena:

So our mission for this deep dive is to explore those deeper implications of that conversation. Because what it reveals about our work, our health, and the choices we make, it's incredibly eye opening. We're going to peel back the layers, go far beyond what initially appears on the surface.

Reed:

That's right. So let's set the scene. Brent is sitting in a cardiologist's office.

Lena:

Okay.

Reed:

He's there because he'd been experiencing this, well, this odd sensation in his chest while he was at his desk. After a series of tests, he gets the diagnosis, an extra heartbeat, a PVC happening every third beat, which is not the news you want to hear.

Lena:

No, definitely not.

Reed:

So his cardiologist, clipboard in hand, looks at him and asks, how did you get here?

Lena:

And Brent's first reaction.

Reed:

Well, Brent in that moment gives what he thinks is the most obvious, almost flippant answer. Oh, I drove.

Lena:

Right. The literal answer. But the cardiologist wasn't looking for a geographical explanation, was he?

Reed:

Not at all.

Lena:

He wasn't satisfied. He leaned in, pressed further. No. How did you really get here?

Lena:

And then even more pointedly, why are you at your age sitting in my office where most of my other patients are decades older than you?

Reed:

Wow. That's direct.

Lena:

It really was. This wasn't about the commute. It was a direct challenge to Brent's lifestyle, his choices, the whole path that had led him to that vulnerable position. And that's when it profoundly hit. Brent, this wasn't just about a physical anomaly in his heart.

Lena:

This was about his life.

Reed:

It really makes you consider, doesn't it? What fundamental truths about our own habits, priorities might be hidden beneath our superficial explanation. It's that moment, isn't it, when a routine check up just abruptly becomes this unexpected interrogation of your entire way of living.

Lena:

Yeah. And when the cardiologist pressed, Brent started to lay out what he considered his, you know, simple enough daily routine. Right. He described the early wake ups, the immediate dive into work.

Reed:

Then family time.

Lena:

Spending time with family, and then invariably diving back into work late into the night.

Reed:

That cycle.

Lena:

That cycle. And what's truly chilling about this account is how Brent realized the cycle had quietly, almost insidiously consumed his life for years, and it was utterly unsustainable.

Reed:

And here's where it gets particularly interesting. Brent admits he was actually proud of it.

Lena:

Proud of the grind.

Reed:

Proud of his relentless hard work, the long hours, his ability to seemingly juggle it all. To him, working eighty-hour weeks wasn't a problem. It was a badge of honor. He wore it like a medal.

Lena:

And that badge of honor, that's often the first symptom, isn't it? Of what we can call the dangerous dance of workaholism and perfectionism.

Reed:

Let's break those down a bit.

Lena:

Okay. So when we talk about workaholism, we're not just referring to working long hours. Plenty of successful people do that.

Reed:

Right. It's different.

Lena:

It's more an uncontrollable compulsion to work. It's often tied deeply to a sense of identity, maybe self worth, or even used as an escape from other parts of life. It's like an addiction to the work itself.

Reed:

Okay. And perfectionism.

Lena:

And then there's perfectionism. That's that relentless, often quite debilitating pursuit of flawlessness, where anything less than perfect is seen as a failure.

Reed:

So it's not just striving for excellence?

Lena:

No. It's different. It's often driven by an intense fear of making mistakes or being judged negatively.

Reed:

I see. And the cardiologist saw a pattern here.

Lena:

He did. He connected Brent's current heart condition to a prior health scare viral meningitis just three years earlier.

Reed:

Wow. Okay.

Lena:

And he delivered this stark undeniable warning. He told Brent, essentially, you're running on adrenaline, and at this pace, your body just can't keep up. You've had two strikes already. My fear, he said, is that the third strike could be far worse.

Reed:

That's a serious wake up call.

Lena:

A profound one. For Brent, see, workaholism offered that sense of purpose, that escape, a place where he felt in control, energized even.

Reed:

Right.

Lena:

But this was deeply intertwined with his perfectionism. And that perfectionism made it impossible for him to set boundaries or crucially, to trust others to perform tasks to his, let's say, perceived standard.

Reed:

That perfectionism trap, it's incredibly insidious, isn't it?

Lena:

It really is.

Reed:

It whispers to you that you just can't trust others to handle things the way you would. It convinces you if you want something done right, truly right, you have to do it yourself.

Lena:

The classic line.

Reed:

And that's precisely what Brent did. He took it all on. Every client, every project, every single opportunity.

Lena:

He couldn't say no?

Reed:

He resisted delegation even when it would have clearly eased his burden and maybe even improved the outcome sometimes. He didn't say no even when it left him completely stretched thin, often delivering less than his best simply because he was overwhelmed.

Reed:

So workaholism kept him in this constant unsustainable cycle of overcommitment.

Lena:

And perfectionism fueled that deeply held belief that he was the only one capable of carrying it all.

Reed:

It's interesting because so many people confuse this kind of perfectionism with just striving for excellence.

Lena:

That's a key distinction.

Reed:

But as Brent's story really shows, true excellence often involves effective delegation and knowing when good enough is actually, you know, perfect for the situation.

Lena:

Exactly.

Reed:

It's about letting go of that internal critic that's demanding flawlessness in absolutely all costs.

Lena:

And here's the fundamental catch with perfectionism. It rarely, if ever, leads to actually perfect results.

Reed:

Right. What does it lead to?

Lena:

Instead, it leads directly to burnout. And when you're running on fumes, that's precisely when the cracks really start to show.

Reed:

Yeah.

Lena:

You see strained relationships because maybe you're physically present but mentally absent.

Reed:

Checked out.

Lena:

You miss crucial moments with loved ones because you're always on, always thinking about work. And as Brent painfully experienced, you face serious health issues.

Reed:

The irony is

Lena:

huge. It's profound. While this relentless pursuit of perfection made him feel like he was in control

Reed:

He was actually losing it.

Lena:

He was actually losing control of the things that mattered most. His ability to be truly present in his own life. It's a vicious cycle where the very thing you chase control, flawlessness, is precisely what you end up losing.

Reed:

It's a powerful and sadly all too common realization. It makes you wonder what kind of wake up calls we might need in our own lives before reaching that point of crisis. For Brent, he receives several. First, that stark warning from the cardiologist about the serious risk he was taking with his life.

Reed:

But then something else perhaps even more surprising and in a way profound happened after his heart procedure.

Lena:

Ah yes, the procedure itself was successful.

Reed:

Yes, heart condition was successfully resolved with a heart ablation. That's a procedure where they cauterize a small part of the heart tissue to stop those abnormal electrical signals. So physically he was on the mech.

Lena:

Okay. Good. But something else happened. Yeah. What truly stuck with him wasn't the physical recovery itself.

Lena:

It was this profound and actually somewhat comical incident that occurred as he was waking up from the anesthesia.

Reed:

Oh, really?

Lena:

Still groggy, disoriented, you know, in that post op panic state. Brent blurted out to the nurse, where's my mouse? I need it for my presentation.

Reed:

His computer mouse.

Lena:

His computer mouse. The nurse, understandably confused, kind of chuckled and asked, your mouse, sir, you just had a heart procedure.

Reed:

Right. Focus.

Lena:

And Brent, still utterly fixated, repeated, yes. My mouse or my presentation. Even in that vulnerable, foggy, post anesthesia state, his mind was completely consumed by work. It was this powerful, almost absurd moment that became a stark metaphor for everything he needed to change about his relationship with work.

Reed:

That's incredible.

Lena:

It raises an incredibly important question for all of us, doesn't it? When you are truly vulnerable, when your guard is completely down, what is your first thought? What does that reveal about your deepest, perhaps sometimes unhealthy priorities?

Reed:

That mouse moment. Yeah. It really paints such a vivid picture of just how deeply ingrained his work obsession had become.

Lena:

Absolutely.

Reed:

It forced him to confront the sheer depth of it, even when he was, you know, unconscious practically. And from that point, Brent began to learn some crucial, really life altering lessons. The first step for him was understanding the absolute necessity of setting boundaries.

Lena:

Which sounds simple but isn't.

Reed:

It really isn't. This wasn't just about working less. It meant learning to consciously step away from work at the end of the day, even if his to do list wasn't completely finished.

Lena:

That's hard for high achievers.

Reed:

Very hard. And it also meant actively trusting others to step in and handle things, even if their way wasn't exactly how he would have done it.

Lena:

Letting go of that control.

Reed:

It's a huge mental hurdle to overcome when you've built an entire career on doing it all yourself.

Lena:

And the second step, which builds on that trust and boundary setting, was a fundamental shift in how he approached new opportunities. He had to start rethinking his yes.

Reed:

Ah, the power of no or at least maybe.

Lena:

Exactly. This is a significant mindset change, moving from just automatic agreement to thoughtful consideration. So now, when an opportunity or request comes his way, Brandt pauses. He asks himself three crucial questions. Think of this as a kind of prioritization matrix that really we can all adopt.

Lena:

First, is this truly important? Is it aligned with the main goals?

Reed:

Right.

Lena:

Second, can I realistically give it my best effort without overextending myself? Assessing capacity.

Reed:

Crucial.

Lena:

And finally, perhaps the most challenging one for a perfectionist. Is this something only I can do or can someone else handle it?

Reed:

Oh, that last question. That really is a game changer, isn't it?

Reed:

It goes right to the heart of that perfectionism trap we talked about. Because letting go of that need for personal flawlessness, it isn't about lowering your standards, is it?

Lena:

Not at all.

Reed:

It's about recognizing that collaboration and trust are just as valuable, maybe even more so, than your own hard work performed in total isolation.

Lena:

Well said.

Reed:

It forces you to evaluate not just the task itself, but your unique contribution and whether it truly needs to be you every single time.

Lena:

Exactly. And that leads directly to Brent's third crucial lesson, redefining success.

Reed:

How so?

Lena:

For years, he'd equated success with doing it all. Right? Well, taking on everything with those eighty-hour work weeks we mentioned.

Reed:

The badge of honor.

Lena:

That badge of honor. So what does this all mean for us? Well, now he understands that success isn't about how much you accumulate on your plate. It's profoundly about the quality of what you do, the impact you have. And critically, the health and well-being of the life you build around it.

Reed:

It's a shift from quantity to quality.

Lena:

Exactly. From external validation needing that badge to internal fulfillment and sustainability.

Reed:

Precisely. Workaholism and perfectionism, as we've seen so vividly through Brent's experience, they really are a dangerous combination.

Lena:

A toxic mix.

Reed:

Together, they relentlessly convince you that there's always more to do, always more to prove, always more to achieve. They push you to say yes to everything, to keep going even when your body and mind are just begging you to stop.

Lena:

But the consequences of that cycle, they aren't always immediate or obvious, are they?

Reed:

No, they sneak up on you.

Lena:

They sneak up slowly, often manifesting as, you know, strained relationships, sudden and inexplicable health scares like Brent's

Reed:

Yeah.

Lena:

Or that profound gut wrenching realization that you've been physically present everywhere, but utterly absent from the moments that truly matter.

Reed:

If we connect this to the bigger picture, it really is about shifting focus, isn't it? From that external validation, that desperate need for a badge of honor towards internal well-being and a more sustainable, fulfilling existence.

Lena:

It's about recognizing that constant striving beyond a certain point can actually become a form of self sabotage.

Reed:

And Brent's journey gives us a clear, actionable path forward. One that challenges many of our sort of ingrained beliefs about productivity and success. What he's learned often through painful experience is that saying no doesn't mean you're letting people down. It means you're respecting your own capacity.

Lena:

That's key. Respecting capacity.

Reed:

Delegating doesn't mean you're incapable or lazy. It means you understand leverage and trust.

Lena:

It's strategic.

Reed:

And letting go of perfectionism doesn't mean you stop caring. It actually means you start caring about the right things. Your health, your relationships, the actual impact of your work, rather than just the flawless execution of every single tiny detail.

Lena:

He learns that perfection isn't the goal. Progress is.

Reed:

Progress over perfection. I like that.

Lena:

It's about sustainable growth, not constant debilitating pressure.

Reed:

So how can you listening now approach your life differently? Maybe starting today, how can you begin setting those crucial boundaries, truly trusting others and finding the courage to say no when you really need to?

Lena:

It's worth considering.

Reed:

The next time someone asks you, how did you get here? I hope your answer doesn't involve waking up in a hospital room panicking about a presentation.

Lena:

Or the mouse.

Reed:

Or the mouse. Or realizing you've sacrificed everything for some elusive badge of honor. Instead, I hope it's a story of balance, of strategic collaboration, of trusting others, and of having the wisdom to let go of the need to do it all yourself.

Lena:

A different kind of success story.

Reed:

Because sometimes the most important yes you can say isn't to your boss, your clients, or even your family. It's to yourself, your health, and the quality of the life you truly want to build. Thanks for listening. Until next time.

Andy:

That's it for this week's episode of Rivr Conversations. Speaking on behalf of Brent and myself, big thanks to our expert Rivr Guides for another thoughtful discussion. We always appreciate the unique perspectives they bring to these conversations. To close out each Rivr conversation, I like to describe the photo featured in the Rivr Notes newsletter. It's not just a stock image it comes from a real adventure.

Andy:

After all, the best ideas often come from staying curious, embracing new perspectives, and engaging with the world around us. This week's photo comes from the heart of the desert, a stark and powerful snapshot of resilience. In the foreground, twisted branches of sun bleached wood reach out like open hands, shaped over time by wind and weather. They stretch across a rugged landscape of hardy shrubs and tangled undergrowth, each one a silent witness to survival in this dry, unforgiving terrain. Behind them, sandstone cliffs rise with layered precision, their horizontal bands recording millennia of Earth's memory.

Andy:

Off in the distance, the jagged silhouette of desert spires and distant mountains draw your eye toward the horizon. The photo is black and white, which only heightens the drama. Without color, the textures become sharper the grain of old bark, the sweep of desert stone, the way light carves contrast between shadow and sky. It's a landscape that doesn't ask for your attention it commands it. And in its stillness there's a quiet metaphor.

Andy:

Sometimes what looks gnarled and weathered is exactly what's holding the line: strong, rooted, endearing. This image reminds us that beauty isn't always soft. Sometimes it's harsh, honest, and deeply alive. If you'd like to read the full Rivr Notes article, including all the amazing photographs, you can find it at OnRivr.com. That's Rivr without an e.

Andy:

And be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to your podcasts so you never miss a conversation. Before we go, a quick reminder: The opinions and viewpoints expressed in this podcast are solely those of the presenters and our AI companions, sharing personal reflections and perspectives. We're not legal experts, medical professionals or therapists. This content is for informational and entertainment purposes only, so please consult the appropriate professionals when you need advice or support. Thanks again for listening.

Andy:

Rivr Conversations is an OnRivr, LLC production.